Plenary

The Cabinet Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning is proceeding with the local government funding formula review in partnership with local authorities. This includes joint technical work with local government and independent research through the Wales Centre for Public Policy. We're expecting a report during the summer of 2027 on this work.

Thank you very much. As a former county councillor of 14 years, I welcome this Government's commitment to renewing the relationship between the Welsh Government and local authorities by ensuring that they are full partners in the design and the delivery of public services. Local authorities do excellent work across our communities, and we will rely on them to deliver many of this Government's priorities. It is therefore essential that the funding formula reflects the true cost of service delivery in different parts of Wales. Could the Minister therefore provide information on the discussions she has had with the Minister for Local Government, Housing and Planning and with the Welsh Local Government Association regarding this matter? Thank you.

Thank you for that supplementary question, and may I agree with the Member that county councils in Wales play a crucial role in delivering public services and play a crucial role in terms of how this Government will deliver its programme for government, and they play a key role, of course, in providing for and representing people at a local level? So, the funding of local government to allow them to deliver in that way is important in that regard.

Now, there was a question on the discussions that I've been having with the Minister for local government in terms of appropriate funding for local authorities—yes, certainly, that is happening as part of the discussions around the preparation of the annual budget for Wales. Last week, I believe, I met, along with the Minister for local government, with local authorities in the WLGA finance sub-group as we discussed the annual budget, and changes and the discussion around the funding formula too. So, that ongoing relationship and discussion with local government is very important to this Government in order to deliver all of the work that our county councils are responsible for doing.

Cabinet Minister, whilst your colleague is in America deep-seeking the meaning of artificial intelligence, and the First Minister is running around Cardiff market, there are some very pressing challenges in Carmarthenshire affecting rural communities. Cash-strapped councils are being forced into short-term, penny-pinching false economies like threatening to close our small rural schools. In fact, two schools were closed today. Councils must manage their money, yes, I absolutely agree, but when will the Welsh Government prioritise ours? Will this funding formula finally direct real taxpayers' money to safeguard these small rural schools, the beating hearts of our communities? Diolch.

Well, the promotion of Wales overseas is an important aspect of the work that this Government wants to accomplish on behalf of businesses and communities in Wales. The First Minister was drinking a cup of coffee in a corridor as I passed him on the way down to the Chamber earlier, gallivanting nowhere at that point, hot coffee in his hand. Can I just say that, as I answered Rebeca earlier, local authorities provide a really key role in being able to deliver services—education, social services—in all our communities in Wales? They face tough, challenging budgetary situations, as we do as a national Government as well. Taking these decisions at a local level is important. We believe in the decentralisation of decision making in Wales, not setting arbitrary caps on local authorities in terms of the money that they have the ability to spend, as you will want to propose later on this afternoon. They have to take difficult decisions. I represent a constituency west of yours, also rural in nature. I've seen local schools at times have to be closed; I've seen campaigns to save local schools, and those local schools remain open today. These are complex decisions that local communities and their representatives have to take, and should not be trivialised in this place; they need to follow the processes, listen to the voices of those people involved, and take the right decisions. It's not for us to dictate the decisions that should be taken locally.

The key drivers of demand on local authority budgets include population, school numbers, social care and deprivation. Any changes to the weighting of these indicators in the local government funding formula will have a huge impact on the ability of councils with the greatest population density and deprivation to deliver essential services. Following the Welsh Government's recent deviation from the established funding formula, councils with the highest levels of deprivation do need clarity. They need to know whether any lasting changes to the formula will come with any significant extra funding or will the funding pot still be the same.

Thank you. You outline the challenges, of course, with the creation of a funding formula that works for all communities and all local authorities across Wales, as diverse as they are for us in Wales. The review that is now being undertaken, part of it in direct partnership and in collaboration with local government, the technical review, part of that is updating and recalibrating the formula while retaining its established needs-based methodology, and initial work that's currently ongoing is focused on some of the areas you've identified, and they are the main areas of local government delivery, and they are on education and personal social services.

As I said in my initial answer, then, this work is ongoing and it is in partnership with local authorities. The final report on this work will be next summer, and that will then decide how we move forward on these issues. I suspect we'll have many conversations around these issues both here, but, importantly, between ourselves as a Government and local government, which are the essential deliverers of so many aspects of our public services and need to be funded according to the need that they need to deliver in a variety of different circumstances.

I have written to the Chancellor and Financial Secretary to the Treasury to request a tax exemption for Cynnal. I've also raised the issue in a meeting with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. In discussions with the Minister of State in the Department for Work and Pensions, the Deputy First Minister has also requested that the payment be disregarded for benefits calculation purposes. I also welcome the Prime Minister's positive comments to explore these matters further.

Diolch. On average, across Wales, around one in three children live in poverty, with some of the most deprived wards found in Clwyd, which is where I represent. We often talk about food poverty and fuel poverty, but I want to draw the Siambr's attention to another less visible consequence of poverty, and that is bed poverty. Too many children are sleeping in broken or unsuitable beds, having to share beds or regularly sleeping on sofas, chairs or even floors because they simply cannot afford an adequate bed. Sleep deprivation can affect almost every major system of the body. The introduction of the Cynnal payment is obviously very welcome, but we must ensure that this does not affect other means-tested benefits. Furthermore, if we're serious about creating lasting change for children living in poverty, we need the powers to tackle that poverty ourselves. I understand from news sources that there's been some discussion around this, but will the Minister commit to not only continuing discussions with the relevant departments to ensure Cynnal payments do not affect means-tested benefits, but also to pressing the UK Government for the full devolution of welfare powers to Wales?

Thank you. You outline in your question the real, debilitating impact of poverty on children in our communities, and that's why this Government is seeking to introduce a child poverty payment, direct payment, in the form of our Cynnal scheme. It will be very difficult for us as a Government to introduce that pilot if we are not given those exemptions to benefits by the UK Government, so we are pursuing vigorously a decision by the UK Government to exempt the Cynnal payment from any impact on benefits or taxes. So, we will be pursuing those. And I'm hoping, even in my letter to the UK Government, that this could be something the UK Government provides clarity on in the budget in April. And just to say, in terms of the full devolution of welfare—or progress on the devolution of welfare—then that is certainly something that the First Minister is pursuing as part of the need to see greater devolution. We've seen how the part devolution of welfare for Scotland has enabled a child poverty payment to be made in Scotland, and we are prevented from doing so at this point by some of the restrictions around our devolution settlement. So, we need to change that in order to help us with the work that we want to tackle in terms of child poverty.

Minister, Labour rejected your supplementary budget in July. Mark Drakeford suggested that they should have accepted the deal. And now, Labour and Plaid have reached an agreement. The old band is back together, playing live on the stage of failed promises. [Interruption.] Your defeated budget proposed £2 million for Cynnal payments, but up to 15,000 children could be affected, and that would cost £7.8 million over a year before administration costs.

As recently as 7 October, you were still seeking safeguards from HM Revenue and Customs and the Department for Work and Pensions to prevent families losing out through tax or reduced benefits. It's good to hear your statement, but why on earth announce financial help before securing the protections needed to ensure recipients actually benefit? That looks short-sighted and publicity-seeking. Does this risk become another disingenuous Plaid manifesto promise scuppered by inadequate preparation and uncertainty over funding? Minister, does your agreement with Labour fund the financial support needed to deliver Cynnal from the first payment and beyond the original £2 million budget? Thank you.

The Cynnal payment is no longer just a manifesto commitment, it is a pledge of the Government elected by the people of Wales in May. We've moved on from a manifesto, so keep up. The programme for government, of course, wants to implement and, across our work as a Government, tackle child poverty, for the clear reasons outlined by Becca in her earlier question. So, we need to be progressing this. We think that there are very straightforward measures that the UK Government could take to enable us to introduce this payment. Designing the Cynnal payment pilot, as it will be, continues as part of the work of this Government now, and, as I've already outlined, we'll be continuing discussions with the UK Government to enable us to bring it into action.

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, on 15 September, your Government announced—fronted, I noticed, by the First Minister—that, to pay for rate cuts for smaller venues, it would raise the tax on Wales's largest business premises. Eight days later, Admiral, Wales's only FTSE 100 company, announced 500 job cuts, and Legal & General, which employs more than 2,000 people in Cardiff, announced 1,000 job cuts. Now, Admiral had already told the markets back in March that it had to find £100 million of savings. So, you knew some of our biggest employers were under pressure and you still decided to send them a bigger tax bill. Your impact assessment, released later, on 6 October, speculates about jobs that might be created in hospitality, but, crucially, it says nothing about the potential job losses for the businesses having to pay more. So, a simple question, Minister: will you publish a full assessment of the jobs impact of your tax rise before this Senedd is asked to vote on it—'yes' or 'no'?

I'm not aware of anything that those companies that have regrettably announced job losses have said that it is in any way as a result of the 30 per cent reduction in the business rates available to the leisure and hospitality industries in Wales. They are large companies and they will want to see a workforce that works for them in Wales, that are living in vibrant communities, vibrant city centres here in Cardiff. As part of providing for ensuring that we have the ability for smaller businesses to continue trading in our city centres and in our high streets, then this Government took the decision to reduce those business rates on the hospitality and leisure sectors. So, I hope that you will be supporting that, and any information that you believe I need to provide in order to facilitate your support for the reduction of business rates for our pubs and clubs, then I'd be happy to supply that for you.

Did the Minister answer the question?

I don't think so.

No. Last week, the Deputy Minister for Transport told us that work on a third Menai crossing starts now, which is warm words, but my colleagues were right to ask where the money is, because Wales has been here before. The M4 relief road, originally promised in 1991, millions spent on planning and then scrapped, partly over funding issues. And, yes, the third crossing, originally promised in 2018, £3 million spent on planning and then scrapped, partly over funding issues. The current estimate for this project today is £670 million, yet only £20 million to £25 million has been budgeted over the next five years for it, and that's just been for planning.

We can see where this is going, Minister: you'll kick the big spending can down the road while you're in the job, a future finance Minister will announce we don't have enough money and then quietly shelve it. A sad transportation groundhog day. So, Minister, will you prove me wrong and pledge where the money to build the bridge will come from in this Senedd term?

This is most definitely not groundhog day for the Menai bridge. I would have said that last week was very much a first day of a big announcement by this Government on the future of a third Menai crossing. In Government, in this Senedd, when you have been here a longer time, you will know that large infrastructure projects take a long time to deliver. Therefore, if you don't start today and start the planning and fund the planning, as this Government is doing for the Menai bridge, then you will not get to that day when there is a third Menai bridge. So, you have to start and then you continue that work. This Government has started the process of designing the work that's needed to improve the resilience of the two bridges in place today and tackle the need for a third Menai crossing. We're committed to doing that work, to funding that work in its development phases, and, hopefully, both you and I will be here long enough to see that third Menai bridge built.

Minister, you've spent five months in this job. Let's look at your record: you're responsible for the first Welsh Government budget ever to be defeated in the history of devolution; you've twice managed to vote against your own Government, by mistake; you've had to correct the record for getting financial figures wrong in the Chamber; and, just now, you've failed to explain where the money's going to come from for the third Menai crossing. That is why I wasn't surprised that, when your Government needed to negotiate with my party for the next supplementary budget, it didn't send you, it sent the Minister for Government effectiveness. I have a source saying the exact same thing happened with the Labour negotiations. The First Minister said he had learnt lessons over the summer. The lesson, it appears, is to sideline you. So, Minister, who is actually running the Welsh Government's finances? And given it clearly isn't you, is it not time to officially hand over the reins to someone more competent?

When you've been here 27 years and you've only managed to vote wrong twice, then maybe I can come back to you and see what your record will be like in 27 years. Look, you can trivialise these spokespeople questions if you want to. There are really important questions that could be asked at this point, and you've asked whether it's Dafydd Trystan or myself that turned up to a meeting with you. I am the Minister for finance. There are others in this Government who will also be negotiating with people across this Senedd, both on funding and on legislation. We do not work as a silo in this Government; we work as a team. I don't know how you work within Reform—I'd love an insight into that. But, as a Government, we are committed to working with you and with all parties here to secure Senedd support for a budget that enables public services to be delivered in Wales.

It is easy to sit on a Reform bench, or even a Tory bench, and always vote 'no'. The difficult bit of this work, you will find, is to find—[Interruption.] I apologise for dragging another political party into this. I shouldn't have done that, and I was trivialising at that point. You will find, in the work of forging co-operation and ensuring the need to pass budgets and pass legislation in this place—because ultimately that is why we are voted to this place by the people of Wales—that you need to talk across political parties and within political parties, and that's what I'll continue to do.

Thanks, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I wish you both a happy shwmae? Minister, as we've already heard, the major news this week was the agreement on the supplementary budget. May I thank you personally for your meetings with me and the fact that we've been able to come positively to an agreement that ensures £60 million additionally for schools and colleges for additional learning needs? This is a victory. I visited a school in Pentrebane in Cardiff west this morning. It's obviously going to make a huge difference that that funding is going to come through immediately now.

We are clear that this money is an important down payment, but it's not enough. Further funding is required. You have spoken previously about your concerns about in-year overspends within the NHS and so the need to hold money back, unallocated, to address that concern. I accept that as a prudent argument at the moment, but what are you doing to drive those overspends down? In a written question answer to me—

If I can just put this across. A month or two ago, the net annual deficit forecast for health boards was £333 million. What is that figure now? Have you managed to get that figure down, so that we can unlock additional funding for schools and colleges?

Shwmae. Shwmae to the whole Chamber this afternoon. It was important that we came to an agreement and that there will, hopefully, now be a majority in this Chamber to allow that expenditure on additional learning needs, which needs that £60 million that will be voted on in the next few weeks, so that that important funding reaches our schools and colleges in order to ensure that the pressure our schools are currently under is alleviated somewhat. I know that you believe that more funding is required, and some follow-up to that funding in future, and that's something that this Chamber as a whole will need to discuss as we bring forward the budget for next year.

In reference to the particular challenges within the NHS and in financial control within the NHS, this is an issue that I am continuing to have conversations on with the health department and the health Minister. We do need to ensure that we get to a situation where we are confident at the start of a financial year that the NHS is able to live within the means of the budget that it's been allocated for that year. There is considerable inflation within the NHS—in public services in general, but particularly in the NHS—and that is once again because it's in the wider economy and that is a challenge to our NHS budget management. These are issues that we continue to need to grapple with and they have very real life consequences for people out there who receive services from the NHS.

Thanks. I didn't hear a figure there of what the overspend had declined by, so perhaps we could correspond by letter on that. One of your priorities as a Government is the childcare offer. One of our priorities is to ensure fair pay in the economy.

Welsh Labour's manifesto made a commitment to ensuring that businesses receiving Welsh Government support pay the real living wage. I've asked previously whether businesses funded through the childcare offer will be mandated to pay the real living wage. I've not had a clear answer on that yet, but I note your programme for government commits you to adopting a 'fair work first' approach to public sector grants, loans and contracts. I wonder what progress have you made in putting that commitment into practice. Specifically, will payment of the real living wage become a condition of public sector contracts and financial support to businesses? And what is the timetable for introducing those requirements? Diolch yn fawr.

On the current position, in terms of the NHS position within the financial year, I'm happy to write to you further on the exact position as we are in month 6 or 7 of the financial year.

It is our commitment as a Government to ensure that there is fair pay for fair work and we are looking to embed that across our work as a Government, whether that is in the wages available to people who undertake contracts for the Welsh public sector, but also in terms of the question that you pose in particular there, the grants available to businesses. So, I'll need to take that particular part of the question away and write to you to confirm on that one what the intention of the economy Minister is on that particular aspect of the question.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Minister, in May of this year, Plaid Cymru stood on a platform of change. Of course, we've seen in 2007 the One Wales coalition that Plaid Cymru had with Labour for a four-year period; in 2021, there was the co-operation agreement that Plaid Cymru had with Labour throughout that term; in 2025, the budget deal between Plaid Cymru and Labour for this next financial year again. And of course, yesterday, you announced a deal with Welsh Labour for the supplementary budget again. I wonder how this signals a platform of change that Plaid Cymru stood on in May.

Interesting for me, this analysis of who works with who, because if we think about the supplementary budget and if we think of how that supplementary budget will progress its way through the Senedd, then it may well be that it's supported by one or two political parties here. It may be that it's allowed through by another political party, but it may be voted against by another cosy consensus between Reform and the Tories here. Alliances work in different ways in this place. I'm always keen to look to see how we create new alliances. I'm always keen to work with political parties across this Chamber. You know, I love it when the whole Chamber works together as one, but that doesn't seem to be the pattern of the day these days.

So, this Government has a programme for government for the next four years. It is a programme of change. A budget will be announced in the next few weeks that will enable that programme to move up a gear. We are a Government of change. That programme is the first programme for government that is not a Labour programme for government. That is change in itself and it will do different things.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. I'm sure you can appreciate that when you say it's a Government of change, but continuing the same alliances that have taken place many times during the 27 years of this Senedd, it's hard for the electorate to understand how those two things can be true at once. And of course, during that campaign, you claimed that the economic plan would unlock potential, support good jobs and grow businesses, and in forming a new Welsh Government, many people hoped for a shift away from 27 years of working with Labour in one way or another. Instead, we see that deal being done again.

In particular, around the issue around additional learning needs, it's absolutely right that funding has been allocated to those children with additional learning needs. But a single-year assessment is not enough to provide schools, teachers, parents and learners with the certainty that they desperately need. The National Association of Head Teachers have told us that this deal falls significantly short of ALN's identified need in Wales. The Welsh Labour leader himself said yesterday that the ALN sector needed long-term sustainability. It baffles the mind as to why a long-term deal, therefore, wasn't agreed to. So, I wonder if you believe, in your heart of hearts, that the Plaid Cymru and Labour supplementary budget deal will bring the change that Wales needs, does do enough to expand support for ALN learners, and will help grow the economy across the whole of Wales.

Well, that supplementary budget is, of course, much more than just the £60 million of additional funding for additional learning needs. That in itself is important and is an addition to the budget that was discussed here in the summer, and that's an important contribution that will now go directly to schools and colleges in Wales. It won't go as a result of you voting against the supplementary budget, or Reform possibly voting against the supplementary budget. It'll go because Plaid Cymru will vote for that supplementary budget, and Labour will allow that supplementary budget to pass. It is because of our actions that it will go, not your actions. So, that is a contribution that will make a difference to young people in Wales, and just continually voting against delivers nothing.

Land transaction tax has made a significant contribution to the Welsh budget since its introduction in 2018. It's provided over £2.5 billion for vital public services and infrastructure in Wales.

I refer to my register of interests. I want to focus on two areas of concern, Minister. First is our first-time buyers. There is no first-time buyer relief in Wales. So, for example, if a first-time buyer buys a £300,000 house, they pay £4,500 more in tax than in England. The more expensive the house, the worse that gets. Secondly, Wales has now got a punishing tax for those who buy more expensive homes. For example, a £1 million home in Wales requires £62,000-worth of tax— about half as much again as in England. Now, some people might think that's good. But let me remind you all that Wales has a worryingly small tax base: 1.1 per cent of taxpayers in Wales pay additional tax, compared to 1.5 per cent in the west midlands and 1.9 per cent in the south-west. We should be worried about that. Minister, Wales is getting poorer and the decisions made in this place over 27 years, which you've just reminded us of, have contributed to that. This tax policy was introduced by Mr Mark Drakeford. It acts as an incentive for young people to buy houses in England, and it acts as a disincentive for those who are more wealthy to move to Wales. Your Government claims to want a transformation of the Welsh economy—

Will you consider changing this structure or, even better, set a target for its abolition?

The important piece of this jigsaw that you didn't mention there was that the land transaction tax in Wales has a much higher starting threshold than in England. So, the starting threshold in Wales is £225,000. There are around 55 per cent and more of transactions below the £225,000 threshold in Wales, and they pay no land tax at all—55 per cent of all transactions pay no land transaction tax on a primary residence. The starting threshold in England is £125,000. Every house that is worth more than £125,000, and between £125,000 and £225,000, pays land transaction tax or stamp duty in England. They don't in Wales. In Scotland, it's £145,000. So, in telling the story of land transaction tax, tell it all and then the full picture provides the balanced approach that this Government believes can continue. Although, I am willing to consider whether there is a need to think about first-time buyer relief. It's something that I'm interested, possibly, in looking at in this context, but very much the majority of first-time buyers are in that context of being under the threshold of £225,000. In fact, that £225,000 threshold is higher than the average house price in Wales of £215,000.

Cabinet Minister, I welcome this Government's commitment to review the land transaction tax and a wider ambition to encourage empty buildings back into use. With Wales barely building half the homes it needs, every empty house counts. One of my constituents in Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, a small local property developer, has highlighted to me how the tax rules treat uninhabitable properties as residential because they can, in theory, be repaired. But these tumbledown houses, with no services, broken roofs and creeping damp are exactly the ones that we need to become homes. Yet developers pay higher rate land transaction tax on them, discouraging investment and regeneration. Although the empty homes grant helps individual home owners, developers can't use it, and the higher rates refund available for landlords leasing back to councils also doesn't apply. So, as you examine reform, would the Cabinet Minister consider a time-limited tax refund for local developers turning derelict properties into homes? Diolch.

Thank you for that point. As you know, the Government is interested in being able to bring more empty properties back into active use, especially into residential use. And on the point that you made there about the difficulties that some property developers may be finding in renovating and bringing vacant residential properties back into use because they are caught in the land transaction tax matter, and whether there is a way of providing land transaction relief or refund to incentivise property developers bringing properties back, it's an interesting area that I'm perfectly willing to look at as we look at how we use the land transaction tax to enable bringing empty properties back. I certainly wouldn't want it to be an active disincentive, so I will certainly look at how we can see whether there are ways of doing it in a way that enables bringing empty properties back into use.

As part of the budget process, I have regular discussions with all Cabinet Ministers. Decisions on further education funding, like all budget decisions, are considered within wider Cabinet discussions on priorities.

Thank you, Minister. Supporting learners with additional learning needs in the further education sector is becoming a major challenge, with Coleg y Cymoedd telling me that they have experienced almost a 50 per cent increase in the number of learners with ALN and individual development plans during the last academic year. Similarly, the College Merthyr Tydfil identifies not only increasing numbers of students with IDPs, but a stark growth in the numbers of learners identified with an ALN presently undergoing assessment processes to determine whether they require an IDP or additional support arrangements.

Now, I wholeheartedly welcome the supplementary budget deal that Welsh Labour has secured with your Government, with £60 million extra for additional learning needs, including £2.5 million for further education. But to support learners and staff effectively, this funding needs to be sustainable and long term. So, what discussions will you have with colleagues to ensure that this is the case?

I certainly recognise that additional learning needs is a challenge in terms of funding and provision for colleges, post-16 education, as well as our schools. A lot of the focus of the discussion seems to be on schools, but it is a very real challenge for post-16 education as well. That's why I am pleased that, as part of that deal to secure progress on the supplementary budget, and the £60 million allocation for additional learning needs, £2.5 million of that is to go directly to colleges. But another important aspect of that agreement of the £60 million package is that there is an allocation of funding also for the planning for a long-term sustainable model of funding for education and additional needs, so that, over time, we can get to a place where our local authorities, schools and colleges can plan provision to meet the need and the ability to provide education comprehensively for all. We need to get to a better place than we are currently, and that's why we're committed to working with partners across this Chamber on how we can develop and place this on a sustainable footing into the future.

This Government is committed to tackling gender inequality and ensuring that equality is properly considered at every stage of budget decision making. Our primary focus as a Government is on the outcomes we achieve, and we must carefully consider which tools and mechanisms help us to make a real difference in people’s lives.

Diolch. I welcome that this Government is working towards its manifesto commitment to embed gender budgeting in Wales. International best practice places that responsibility for this with the Treasury—in that case, you, Minister—because budget decisions shape people's everyday lives. Gender budgeting can seem complex, so I'll attempt an everyday analogy: a good cook does not wait until the guests have eaten to find out whether their recipe worked. Tasting, or testing, happens beforehand, and Government should be no different. Gender budgeting is about assessing the impact of spending decisions before they are made, rather than discovering too late that they've deepened existing inequalities. The case in Wales is stark. Women are three times more likely than men to work part time, three and a half times more likely to be economically inactive, because of caring responsibilities, and face a gender pay gap of 11.8 per cent. So, Minister, what leadership will you show to embed gender budgeting across Government?

I'm not sure if I'd pass the cook test, but I'll try and pass the budget test. There's a range of tools and approaches that can help us understand the impacts of spending decisions before we take them, and gender budgeting is certainly one of those tools. But there are constraints in terms of our capacity to embed this approach, especially in the context of this year's first budget.

The previous Government undertook gender budgeting pilots that you'll know about, I'm sure, and they provided useful learning. In particular, they highlighted the importance of considering gender early in policy development, rather than adding it later. So, I want to take that learning and consider where it can help us to make better decisions and deliver better outcomes. And if we think of that particularly in the context of where we are developing new programmes—we've spoken of Cynnal, free school swimming and our childcare offer—so that we are using gender budgeting in the context of new policy initiatives, as was highlighted by the gender budgeting pilots—. And, obviously, you've done previous work on gender budgeting, and I'd be happy to discuss this further with you in detail in how we move to embed that across Government as we move through our budgeting processes.

Taxes fund public services that benefit everyone. Fair and proportionate tax policies will support people and businesses in Carmarthenshire. Our changes to rebalance non-domestic rates will benefit communities by supporting vibrant high streets and town centres. The council tax reduction scheme directly supports over 15,000 households in Carmarthenshire.

Thank you, Cabinet Minister. For many households in Carmarthenshire, the tax that bites the hardest is council tax. Recent analysis found that Welsh councils face a combined projected budget shortfall of more than £272 million next year, with Carmarthenshire's £34 million gap the second highest in Wales. Now, residents are already paying the price. Since 2022, the Plaid Cymru-led county council's band D charge, the benchmark that is used to compare council tax across Wales, and for which every other band is set, has risen by more than 31 per cent, including an 8.9 per cent increase in 2025-26. Council tax may be set locally, but Welsh Ministers already retain powers to intervene where increases are considered excessive. Reform has proposed requiring a local referendum before councils can increase council tax by more than 4.99 per cent, similar to the effective threshold applied to many councils in England. So, will the Welsh Government adopt that protection, so Carmarthenshire residents have the final say before they're hit yet again with rises on the scale that we have seen over the last four years? Diolch.

This is a spoiler alert, but we will be voting against your motion later on. We don't agree that capping local authorities' council tax is a way of enabling local authorities to take the decisions they need to take locally as elected members. The main determinant of council tax is probably still the financial settlement that this Government and this Senedd will pass in February of next year to local authorities. So, us deciding across the Senedd what the scope of that settlement for local authorities will be will be part of the work that we undertake over the next few months.

I already know, and I'm already planning at this point, that our settlement as a Welsh Government will be 0.7 per cent down in real terms for next year. It is a very challenging settlement, unless there are changes from the UK Chancellor at the end of October in his budget. So, that is the crucial determinant of council tax: what is the size of the public sector funding available to local authorities.

I'm hoping, hearing what you say, that you want to see good local settlements for local authorities, and that you will work constructively with us to enable that to happen, just as Plaid Cymru enabled a good settlement to pass by working with the previous Welsh Government so that local government and the NHS were provided the best possible settlement as part of the budget deal of the last Senedd.

Climate resilience is an important element of this Government’s work to protect communities and improve outcomes. The draft budget for 2027-28 will support programme for government priorities on climate and nature, including Net Zero Wales, alongside wider Government measures to help Wales adapt to a changing climate.

Diolch. I'm calling on the Welsh Government to create a new extreme weather resilience fund to invest in nature-based interventions to help mitigate the risks from extreme weather. Floods, droughts and wildfires are increasingly prevalent due to climate change, and nature-based solutions are some of the best available defences to protect our communities. If the climate emergency is a genuinely cross-government priority, funding needs to sit in every departmental budget to ensure that no area slips through the cracks.

Evidence from WWF Cymru and others suggests that for relatively small amounts of money within each portfolio, we could see significant cross-cutting benefits, provided that all Welsh Ministers are prepared to show leadership. Can the Minister confirm the amount of money in this year's budget for climate resilience, and will you commit to reviewing existing departmental budgets to find opportunities for nature-based solutions to be ready for the next extreme weather event? Diolch.

Your question highlights probably the very real concerns that we all as elected Members in the Senedd have as to how we face the extreme weather challenges that will face us this winter, as have faced us in the summer past. You know that this Government takes its response and its planning for future events of this nature seriously. The First Minister has convened a summit on climate resilience to happen next week, I think, to bring stakeholders together to continue the discussion on how we prepare and make ourselves more resilient for extreme weather scenarios, because happen they will.

On the issue around how we budget for that, in my initial answer I told you of how we are looking to embed climate change mitigation measures across our budget. You've asked for a specific identification of an extreme weather resilience fund, if I've understood you correctly, across and in each budget allocation and portfolio. That is something that I will certainly think further on and discuss with you and with others in this Chamber. These are ever-changing but very present issues that we need to address as a Government, but also as a Senedd, in how we plan our budgets into the future and how we plan our work.

Thank you very much. Shwmae. Tomorrow is Diwrnod Shwmae Su'mae, a day to start every conversation in Welsh, regardless of your proficiency level. It's wonderful to see so many of you in the Chamber wearing the badges and stickers. The first Diwrnod Shwmae Su'mae was celebrated back in 2013, and Mentrau Iaith Cymru now co-ordinates the campaign. I would like to thank the mentrau iaith for their ongoing work in promoting the Welsh language across Wales.

The aim of the event is to show that Welsh belongs to everyone and to encourage people to start conversations in Welsh, which will lead to greater use of the language throughout the year. Celebrating the diverse range of people who use Welsh is the main theme of this year's event, and there will be events arranged across our communities with opportunities for socialising in Welsh. So, tomorrow, whether you're in the Senedd, in the shop, at school, or even speaking to the King, do make a point of starting every conversation with 'shwmae' and encourage others to do the same.

There aren't many tougher games than rugby league, but imagine trying to play it in a wheelchair. That's what the Cymru wheelchair rugby league squad is going to be doing later this month as it heads out to Australia to compete in the world cup. As you can imagine, they've had to overcome many obstacles to get this far. I went to support them during their last practice session held in my constituency earlier this year, and they'd just been told their shirt sponsor had pulled out, leaving them £10,000 short of vital funding to get there.

But these men and women, because it's a mixed squad, like a challenge, they embrace it, and they didn't flinch when it came to raising this £10,000. They set about raising it via a crowdfunder to put Cymru on their shirts rather than a sponsor. I kind of like that, so I thought I'd support it as well. I'm delighted to inform this Senedd that they hit their target last week, they hit their £10,000, and everyone gets to go on the trip of a lifetime. It's a measure of their determination to succeed regardless of the challenges life throws at them. And just to make it extra spicy, their first game in the world cup is against England. So, I'm sure you'll join me in wishing them all the very best in that game. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

This week marks Baby Loss Awareness Week, a time to remember the babies lost too soon and to recognise the deep impact that baby loss during pregnancy, during childbirth or afterwards can have on families.

Baby Loss Awareness Week is an opportunity to bring us together and to ensure that anyone affected by pregnancy and baby loss knows that they are not alone.

Some of us in this Chamber, our families, friends, colleagues and constituents will have been touched in some way by pregnancy loss or baby loss.

Baby Loss Awareness Week is an opportunity not only to remember babies who have died too soon, but also to break the silence, increase understanding and ensure that no-one feels they have to face their grief alone. Families must also be at the heart of baby loss investigations and efforts to provide answers.

Although every story is different, they have one thing in common: no-one should feel that they have to face this grief alone. This is why the work of charities like Sands Cymru and Tommy's, alongside health professionals like bereavement midwives and support groups across Wales, are so valuable to families.

As we approach the Wave of Light tomorrow, when people will light a candle in memory of babies we have lost, let us remember every baby and offer our support and compassion to all those living with loss. Diolch yn fawr.

Yesterday, the town of Porthmadog in my constituency marked the centenary of the death of one of its best-known sons, with a series of commemorative events. The name Eliseus Williams might not mean much to some, but I’m sure you will recognise his bardic name, Eifion Wyn.

Eifion Wyn was born at 28 New Street, Porthmadog, and although he spent time as a teacher at Snowdon Street school in the town, he is best known as one of the most popular poets of his time. He wrote in the wake of the Beirdd Newydd, a school of Welsh poets active in the final decades of the nineteenth century who emphasised that poetry should be lofty, serious, philosophical and profound.

Looking back, many consider the work of those poets to be obscure and abstruse. But Eifion Wyn was a poet of the people. It was important to him that his poetry was understandable and accessible, and that’s why he was such a popular poet. To quote an expert in the field, his poetry appealed to the people.

His legacy endures today, of course, not only in the name of the local primary school, but in his words. One of the most famous Welsh hymns, ‘Efengyl tangnefedd’, written by Eifion Wyn, is a call for international peace—a subject that is painfully relevant today. Thanks to the event organisers for all of their work.

Diolch. October is Black History Month. Remember the struggle, recognise the contribution and celebrate the achievement.

This Black History Month, we honour those who have helped build Wales, yet whose stories remain untold. I thank Race Council Cymru, Race Equality First, Ethnic Youth Support Team, Show Racism the Red Card, Black Lives Matter and Black History Cymru 365 campaigners, whose theme this year is 'Proud to be me'. I honour the Windrush generation too. I particularly recognise Professor Uzo Iwobi, founder of Race Council Cymru; Momena Ali, founder of EYST; and Shirley Au-Yeung of the Chinese in Wales Association. Their work in Swansea and beyond has opened doors for others.

To the black workers in the NHS, schools, public services, factories and the voluntary and third sectors, thank you. To the taxi drivers, takeaway owners, and corner shop keepers, thank you. Your contribution to our economy and communities is beyond measure. I am proud of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. Its ambition must live in action and not simply words. I remember the late Mohammad Asghar, our first ethnic minority Assembly Member, elected for Plaid Cymru, and his service to this institution. And Betty Campbell, Wales's first black headteacher, who helped children dream beyond the barriers before them.

Black history is Welsh history. Black achievement is Welsh achievement. And with pride in our past, let us build change that will last. Diolch.

Diolch, Lywydd. I move the motion in the name of Lynne Neagle, and I am pleased to open today's debate on behalf of Welsh Labour.

Our intention for today's debate is to reach consensus on an issue that is so important to so many families across Wales. Whatever the political differences across this Chamber, we all want the best possible quality of life for children and adults with terminal illness. That's why Welsh Labour has tabled this motion: to champion the dedication and commitment of NHS and hospice workers who deliver dignity every day; to put on record our appreciation for the compassionate care they provide and the difference they make to people's lives; and to shine a light on the significant financial difficulties faced by hospices and the wider need for a sustainable solution to the funding of palliative and end-of-life care across Wales.

I'm pleased that other parties have chosen not to amend our motion today. The Senedd, passing this motion unanimously, would send a powerful message to our brilliant NHS staff and hospice workers, and it would challenge Ministers constructively to engage with this issue and to deliver on the commitment set out in the programme for government to address key challenges facing the sector.

Llywydd, last week I visited Tŷ Gobaith hospice just outside Conwy, and I heard first-hand about those challenges. Tŷ Gobaith provides high-quality, locally sensitive palliative and end-of-life care for children and young people. It's one of only two hospices providing specialist care for children in Wales, the other being Tŷ Hafan in Penarth. The staff at both do an incredible job. They help families create precious memories, they give children experiences and moments to cherish, and they allow parents the time and the space to enjoy being together as a family.

Behind those precious moments is specialist nursing and clinical care, support for children with complex life-limiting and life-threatening conditions and vital respite care for parents. Children's hospices support the whole family, often over many years, as well as providing care at the end of life and through bereavement. Right across Wales, dedicated hospice and NHS staff provide that personalised care every day. They manage people's pain, provide comfort and dignity, and support families through some of the most difficult times in their lives.

But alongside the exceptional care that I saw at Tŷ Gobaith, I also heard about the financial pressures they face, which I know are faced by hospices across Wales. Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru say that Wales's 15 charitable hospices care for over 20,000 children and adults affected by terminal illness. Hospice staff in Wales make around 77,000 visits to people in their own homes every year, helping people to remain in familiar surroundings and taking pressure off local hospitals. But the financial challenges are becoming increasingly difficult to manage across the sector.

Every hospice in Wales is forecasting a deficit budget for this financial year, forcing many to make difficult choices about their future, whether that's delaying recruitment, being unable to introduce new services, or even reducing services. On top of these pressures, Marie Curie estimate that the number of people in Wales needing palliative care will rise by 21 per cent by 2050, and their research also suggests that almost one in three adults in Wales have unmet palliative care needs, meaning around 10,000 people whose symptoms are not being managed and who lack the support they need. That's an increase of over 7,000 people needing care every year alongside significant unmet demand.

In Government, Welsh Labour recognised these concerns, increasing annual hospice funding and providing extra cost-of-living support to help protect vital services. We also delivered on our commitment to review hospice funding, which began with the development of new commissioning frameworks in partnership with the NHS and hospice sector. But as financial pressures intensify and demand still rises, there is a need for greater certainty and stability to protect services and help drive improvements. As Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru have argued, hospice funding needs to be stabilised in the short term and put on a sustainable footing in the long term. We need to consider how we can work towards meeting 30 per cent of agreed care costs in the hospice sector during this Senedd term.

Hospices provide care and excellent support for children, young people and adults, and I want to share personal experience that demonstrates just how important this service is. Our daughter was born with cerebral palsy following complications during childbirth. She couldn't walk or use her hands, and for years, my wife and I were her main carers. During this challenging period, Tŷ Gobaith was a saviour for our family. It provided crucial respite, but far more than that too. The staff provided support, advice and professional care for us as a family.

One of the most difficult decisions for any parent is to accept that the life of their child may be short. Unfortunately, our daughter passed away at seven years of age. But the support of Tŷ Gobaith didn't stop at that point. The support continued through our bereavement, and counselling was available for our other daughters too. I will always be grateful for the care and compassion that was shown to our family by the staff at Tŷ Gobaith.

Llywydd, I'm pleased that we're having an opportunity to discuss an issue that is so important to so many families across Wales on the floor of this Chamber this afternoon. I'm also pleased to see that there is cross-party consensus in relation to the pressures facing hospices in Wales and the support required to meet their needs.

In the motion, the Labour Party is right to set out the significant financial pressures facing hospices in Wales, is right to call for a long-term plan to improve palliative care and end-of-life care, is right to make the case for a fair settlement for the sector in order to maintain a sustainable workforce. But with all due respect, Llywydd, it's important to note that it is Labour that has been in power for a quarter of a century and more. As a father and as a carer who has seen directly the challenges facing hospices, I do support this motion, but I have to admit my disappointment that more wasn't done by Labour during their time in power.

I welcome the motion and I'm pleased and proud that Plaid Cymru is now in charge and that we have a Government that is serious about addressing the complex and deep-seated challenges facing hospices, and I look forward to supporting this motion. Thank you.

The fundamental concept of our healthcare system in Wales is that it provides care free at the point of use from cradle to grave, and, unfortunately, it's the latter part of that statement that is at risk at the moment. It is the duty of our health services to ensure that people facing terminal illness and their families receive dignified and compassionate care at the end of life. Approximately 20,000 children and adults depend on our hospice services each year, and therefore they must be protected. But words alone won't protect them. Almost 30 per cent of Welsh voluntary hospices that were surveyed said that they had to reduce in-patient beds or services due to financial or workforce pressure already.

Several hospices across Wales have already closed, either permanently or temporarily, such as a four-bed unit in St David's Hospice in Holyhead. More than 70 per cent of hospices with in-patient units expect that cost pressures will make further beds unavailable. A significant majority of hospice care providers in Wales still depend on charitable donations. Now, in 2025-26, the Welsh Government provided £3 million and committed to finding a sustainable funding solution, but Hospice UK estimate that that is just 10 per cent of the £30 million that will be required over this Senedd term just to safeguard existing services.

As Ken Skates mentioned, Marie Curie have already suggested that the current system is failing people, that nearly a third of people in Wales have unmet palliative care needs. And what's worse is that the demand is expected to rise by more than 25 per cent over the next 25 years. That's a significant increase in demand for a system that is already having to scale back its services due to cost pressures. And while I'm glad that Labour did bring forward this debate today, the fact is that they had years in power in which they could have dealt with the issues that are currently facing hospice care in Wales. And now that Plaid Cymru are in charge, they must explain how they're going to support the sector, as patients cannot be cared for by an announcement or framework.

Essential end-of-life care must be protected, and the current model is clearly unsustainable. Community hospice and palliative care services help people to reduce avoidable hospital admissions and they relieve pressure from elsewhere in our healthcare system. In Reform, we will support measures that place our hospices on a sustainable footing, strengthen community and out-of-hours capacity, and develop the workforce that is necessary to meet growing demands. Hence, we will be supporting this motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

I'd like to thank the Welsh Labour Party for bringing forward this important debate this afternoon. My Welsh Conservative colleagues and I are pleased to be supporting this motion. Palliative and end-of-life care are incredibly important elements of our healthcare system, and we must do all that we can to ensure they are supported and protected for the future. It is not just about supporting people when they are coming towards the end of their lives. Palliative care is about supporting patients throughout, improving their quality of life and managing their pain. It is about treating people and their loved ones with dignity, compassion and respect at what is an incredibly emotional and difficult time. Our hospices play a vital role in delivering the care, whether that be onsite or, indeed, within people's homes, and I want to take a moment to thank the staff that are working in this sector. That includes the doctors, the nurses, the carers, the specialists, the volunteers, the hospice staff, the carers, and everyone else in between. They are the ones who are there day in, day out, supporting people through unimaginably upsetting times, bringing comfort, warmth and support. Their work is extraordinary, and it cannot, indeed, be an easy job.

I made a really sobering visit to St David's Hospice Care in Newport not too long ago, and I saw first-hand the compassion and dedication that the staff put into their roles. The services and support offered at the hospices were extensive, yet not a single penny is charged for the care that they provide. Despite that, it costs £15,000 every single day to provide that care, and while some funding is indeed provided from the Welsh Government and the NHS, it relies heavily on money raised through fundraising and charity shops. That should not be the case. Too many hospices are facing significant pressures and are in a similar boat when it comes to finance. Fundraising is often a great example of community spirit, bringing people together for a worthy cause, but it should not have to be relied on as much for such a service. It should complement public funding, not have to replace it. According to Hospice UK, around 70 per cent of the care costs of delivering hospice care are funded by charitable donations, while the remaining 30 per cent are provided by the Welsh Government and local health boards. That's staggering and, quite frankly, is not sustainable long term.

Around 20,000 adults and children every year are supported by Welsh hospices, and our ageing population makes the need for urgent improvements even more pressing. Presiding Officer, demand for hospice and palliative care continues to rise, but the cost pressures facing the sector are having a major impact. A survey carried out by Hospice UK revealed that more than 90 per cent of hospices in Wales are likely to cut certain services within the next 12 months to 24 months simply due to costs. Not only that, but near to one in two hospices already cut services last year, and I fear that if things do not improve, some hospices will be forced to close for good. We simply cannot allow that to happen.

I will now. Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. So, Cabinet Minister, you made all the right noises when you were in opposition; now you're in Government, we need to see that turned into action. Thank you.

I have visited Tŷ Olwen Hospice both as a relative and also as a Senedd representative of the area in which Tŷ Olwen is based. The issue that got me considering palliative care in detail, and hospices, was the assisted dying debate. The lack of adequate palliative care and end-of-life care and that it needs to be improved became immediately apparent. Palliative care offers physical, emotional and practical support to people with a terminal illness; it can be offered at any point after a terminal diagnosis. It was not only those suffering from motor neurone disease and other degenerative diseases who wished for the end-of-life option, but others with conditions who, with good palliative care, could have had a rewarding life.

First published in 2022, under a Labour Government, the palliative care quality statement set out high-level Welsh Government policy intentions for children's, young people's and adults' palliative and end-of-life care. The statement described what good-quality palliative and end-of-life care should look like. It listed six quality attributes: safe, timely, effective, person-centred, efficient, equitable.

Palliative care and end-of-life care is a critical part of our health and social care system. When it is got right, it can have a profound impact on people living with terminal illnesses and those close to them. Gaps in provision and a system under severe pressure mean that too many people are left without the care and support they need. Demand for palliative care and end-of-life care is growing. Marie Curie estimate that, by 2040, 37,000 people will need palliative and end-of-life care each year. With a system that cannot cope now, unless the Government treats this as a matter of urgency, there is very little chance of meeting future need. Clear leadership from the Welsh Government is needed to address the palliative and end-of-life care system.

I support Marie Curie's list of actions for the Government: ensure palliative and end-of-life care services are responsive to people's needs: high-quality care must be available in the right place at the right time in all parts of Wales; the Government must sustainably fund palliative and end-of-life services to meet the needs of all people living with a terminal illness across Wales; develop a palliative and end-of-life workforce that meets the growing need for care; ensure that all health and social care professionals have at least a foundation knowledge of palliative and end-of-life care; tell people living with terminal illnesses that a diagnosis could lead to death, tell them in language they can understand, and ensure people who are deaf, for example, have sign language interpreters available; patients need to be supported to have a conversation about their care preferences and have advance care plans in action; those who are terminally ill and those close to them, such as family, carers and friends, need 24-hour access to care, support and reassurance; ensure that people living with terminal illnesses are discharged from hospital swiftly when they are deemed able to return home; and appropriate support must be in place at the point of discharge, including support to die in their preferred place. This will, as well as benefiting terminally ill patients, free up beds in hospital and end the continual movement of those who are terminally ill into and out of hospital.

Hospices provide the medical facilities needed to meet complex care needs, but they also provide comfort in a way hospitals just can't. A warm and personal welcome, a peaceful, homely feel, rather than cold, white, clinical walls, frightening noises, shared wards and the hustle and bustle of busy spaces.

A couple of weeks ago, I visited St Kentigern Hospice in St Asaph where I had an unexpected conversation with a resident named Mel. Mel was sitting outside enjoying his morning coffee. It was an ordinary, everyday moment, yet in many ways it represented everything that hospice care should be about: enabling people to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, retain their independence and experience moments of normality, even when facing the most difficult of circumstances. Mel spoke passionately about the compassion and care shown to him by the hospice staff and volunteers. He described how the people supporting him took time to understand his needs and tailor their care accordingly. This is what makes hospice care so special. It recognises that every patient is an individual with their own needs, wishes, fears and hopes. When a patient enters, they are defined by who they are and not what condition or illness they have. Every member of staff and every volunteer I encountered at St Kentigern's demonstrated a genuine commitment to providing comfort, compassion and dignity. It was clear that, to them, this wasn't a job, it was a vocation. Sadly, Mel passed away soon after our meeting, but I'm grateful to be able to say that his death was peaceful and dignified and that he was surrounded by love. The support provided by the hospice to Mel and his family played an important part in making that possible.

Between 2024 and 2025, hospices in Wales provided direct support to 4,900 family members, friends and carers. Caring for a loved one can be physically exhausting, emotionally draining and financially challenging. Unpaid carers give so much of themselves, often with little opportunity to rest and recover. Hospices can provide those carers with a much-needed break, helping them to recharge and continue in their caring role. Hospices also often continue to provide support long after a loved one has died. Bereavement services, counselling and practical guidance help families navigate the difficult journey that follows the loss of someone they love. So, when we talk of hospices and palliative care, we must look beyond the immediate care provided to patients. We must recognise the support given to families, unpaid carers, communities and the wider NHS. Hospices are precious institutions, but they cannot continue to deliver these services through goodwill and dedication alone. They need the resources, stability and support required to meet the growing needs of our communities. We must do all that we can to protect our hospices, support their dedicated staff and volunteers, and ensure that these services remain accessible to everybody, because everyone deserves the opportunity to live their final days with dignity, and no family should have to face the loss of a loved one without the care and support they need.

There are some areas of public policy where we can talk comfortably about budgets, targets, frameworks and commissioning arrangements. But end-of-life care is ultimately about something much more fundamental. It's about how we treat another human being when they're at their most vulnerable and how we allow families to spend those final irreplaceable moments together.

For me, this is deeply personal, because I did not get to say goodbye to my father. And anyone who has experienced that will understand that there are some moments in life that simply cannot be recreated later. There is no second opportunity for a final conversation, no second opportunity to hold somebody's hand, no second opportunity to say what you wanted to say. That is why the quality of care in those final days and hours matters not only to the person who is dying, it matters profoundly to those who are left behind. Good palliative care provides dignity to the dying, but it also gives families something extraordinarily important: time, support and the opportunity for closure. We cannot change death, but we can change the experience of dying, and that is why the situation facing hospices across Wales should concern every one of us in this Chamber.

Hospices in Wales support around 20,000 adults and children affected by terminal illness every year. Yet around 70 per cent of the cost of hospice care is funded through charitable donations, and Hospice UK has told us that an estimated 10,000 people in Wales already have unmet palliative care needs—already. Yet demand is projected to increase by a further 21 per cent by 2050, whilst hospices simultaneously face rising staffing, national insurance and operational costs. So, this is not a crisis somewhere over the horizon. There is unmet need today, and we are asking the same services to prepare for substantially greater demand tomorrow.

We are already seeing the consequences. Nearly 30 per cent of Welsh voluntary hospices surveyed are reducing in-patient beds or wider services because of financial and workforce pressures. And this is not an abstract national statistic for those of us in north Wales. At St David's Hospice in Holyhead, a four-bed in-patient unit has been temporarily closed. Four beds might sound insignificant on a Government spreadsheet, but a hospice bed is not simply a number. It may be the place where somebody spends their final night, where a husband says goodbye to his wife, where a daughter holds her father's hand, where a family has one final conversation with somebody they love. So, when we talk about losing four beds, four hospice beds, we are potentially talking about four families losing something they can never get back. And there is another important point here. Allowing hospice provision to deteriorate does not make the need disappear. Community services, hospice services, can support people closer to home, prevent unnecessary hospital admissions and relieve pressure on an NHS already under enormous strain. Fail to fund care properly in one part of the system and the human and financial cost simply appears somewhere else.

Firstly, can I say 'thank you' to Welsh Labour for bringing forward this debate today? We've already heard how powerfully this issue affects people from across the Chamber. We've heard some incredible stories of people's personal grief and support for this sector, so we're grateful for this debate being here today.

I stand here, Llywydd, also, as one of the many hats that we wear as Members of the Senedd, as the chair of the cross-party group on palliative and hospice care. I want to pay credit to the legend that is Mark Isherwood, who carried that role for a number of years in this place, amongst many roles that he had here. I'm grateful to him for his support throughout his time in this place.

And in that role, I have, of course, also had the privilege of meeting many incredible organisations, in the short time that I've been chairing that cross-party group. Those organisations provide important end-of-life hospice care across Wales, and, as others have, I want to start by thanking them for their incredible work, from the volunteers who man those reception desks in the hospices, right through to those expert clinical staff who are in those hospices day in and day out. I'm also grateful for the support of Jayne Bryant as the vice-chair of that group, and for Elfed Williams as well for his consistency on this, and thank you, Elfed, for sharing your story with us here in this place today.

With the cross-party group, we held an event just a few weeks ago in the Neuadd, Llywydd, and I was grateful to the Cabinet Minister for being able to join us at that event. I know the sector were grateful as well. It was a great opportunity to engage with hospices from across Wales, and I'm sure many of you took the opportunity to do that. I was grateful to be able to spend a few moments with the hospice in my constituency of Fflint Wrecsam, which is Nightingale House Hospice. It's been serving people across Wrexham, Flintshire and east Denbighshire for over 30 years now, and is a shining example of the fantastic work that hospices do in Wales.

I want to remind Members of this place here again today that that cross-party group will meet regularly. I've heard the passionate debate so far in this place and if you want to engage with that cross-party group, please look out for those all-important invites, but I know that we all have very busy diaries to contend with. But let me share with you, as Members, here today that we had a cross-party group meeting just this week and we announced that we're going to undertake an inquiry, as a cross-party group, into community-based palliative care and how that links into hospice care as well. I hope to have some recommendations that the cross-party group can bring to this Senedd as well. And I know that the Cabinet Minister will be interested to see how that may look and how that may shape some of his thinking in the months and years to come as well.

Shwmae, Lywydd; shwmae, bawb. Like my colleagues, I want to firstly start by thanking the staff, the volunteers, the carers, and the families who make palliative and end-of-life care possible across Wales. Now, as someone, like many of you, who would have cared for ageing parents, this debate is really important to me. I've been that family member who has had to sit down with a loved one and explain that there was nothing more that the NHS could do to cure their illness, and that the focus now had to be on keeping them comfortable, pain-free and supported at that time.

And what our family learned very quickly was just how complex and overwhelming the palliative care system can be to navigate, and particularly when someone is living with multiple conditions and moving between hospital, community and home, and sometimes backwards and forwards. And, in our case, we were dealing with things like stroke, cancer, Parkinson's, motor neurone disease, and so much more, and repeated hospital admissions. And at every single stage, different professionals were then involved, different decisions had to be made, and new information had to be absorbed, and we were constantly paper chasing, trying to make sure we had the right letter and playing catch-up all the time.

So, for families who are already coping with grief, uncertainty and exhaustion, navigating those systems can really be genuinely daunting. And that experience taught me that palliative care is much more than just medical treatment. It's about communication. It's about co-ordination. And it's also about ensuring that patients and families understand what support is actually available to them—who they can turn to, and what choices are genuinely open to them at that time of need. But most of all, this is about dignity.

We all recognise the vital contribution that hospices make. They provide specialist care, emotional support, and, of course, practical help to patients and families across Wales. From my perspective, however, this has also got to be a workforce conversation as much as a funding conversation. Every hospice bed, every community visit, and every end-of-life care package depends on people—nurses, healthcare support workers, allied health professionals, social care workers, volunteers and, of course, unpaid carers. So, if we want sustainable palliative care, we need a sustainable workforce. And, as someone with roots in the trade union movement, I want to be clear about something else: caring has got to be valued. It must be valued. Those supporting patients and families at the end of their lives undertake some of the most emotionally demanding work in our society. They deserve secure employment; they deserve fair treatment, fair work, opportunities to develop their skills, and proper support, of course, for their own well-being at that time as well.

Last night—or last week, rather—I was delighted to visit City Hospice in my constituency. They do fantastic work supporting people with terminal illnesses and their families. They provide care to people within their own homes, helping to keep them connected with their local communities and their support networks for as long as possible, but they also have an amazing drop-in centre in Whitchurch, with beautiful gardens and space for people to take part in meaningful activities, allowing people to keep on living well right to the end of their lives.

They told me about a man they supported who was understandably feeling very low and said that one of the things he was really missing was the opportunity to chat about football, so they created a sports bar where people could drink alcohol-free beer, watch football matches and talk about them, often with a sporting hero as a special guest. I confess that's not something that appeals to me at all personally, but the sports bar has now become one of their most popular activities. This is the real difference that hospices make in people's lives, but this vital work is at risk without sustainable funding and strong collaborative working with local health boards.

The previous Government took steps towards developing a hospice commissioning framework to ensure consistent good practice across Wales. However, I understand there are still significant variations across different areas. The Welsh hospice sector needs an additional £5.5 million of funding this year and an additional £8.2 million of funding in each subsequent year of the Senedd term. This works out at around, as people have said, £30 million for the whole of this Senedd term, which is not a great deal amount of money considering the hugely beneficial impacts for our communities.

On average, Welsh hospices get only around a third of their income from statutory sources and must fundraise for the rest from private donors, which is extremely difficult in the context of the cost-of-living crisis. Any additional financial help for hospices would of course be welcomed, but long-term certainty in both the contracts and grant funding, so that staff and service users can be confident their vital services will be there whenever they are needed. Predictable, multi-year recurring funding allows hospices to better plan ahead and supports their highly skilled staff with a huge number of different medical specialisms embedded within their own local communities.

I'm glad that we all agree that the incredible work of our hospices and palliative care workers is not just worth celebrating in this debate this afternoon, but also worthy of fair and sustainable funding in recognition of their life-affirming work. Diolch.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their personal stories today. How we care for people in the final chapters of their lives is the ultimate measure of our compassion, our values and our society. Palliative and end-of-life care is not a secondary branch of medicine; it is a fundamental pillar in a truly integrated health and social care system.

In Neath Port Talbot, Marie Curie estimates that 1,550 people would have benefited from palliative and end-of-life care in 2023. In 10 years, they estimate that demand for palliative care in Neath Port Talbot will increase to 1,705 people per year, and what we must remember is that behind every figure, there is a person, there is a family.

Early identification of needs through health boards is vital to inform the planning and delivery of services. I was pleased to see in the Plaid Cymru manifesto commitments to ensure that every regional partnership board includes a palliative and end-of-life care need, because dignity in death should never depend on your postcode.

And we turn to the staff of our hospices across Wales. The support these individuals provide to families could never be measured—the care, experience and compassion enabling people to stay in their homes and communities wherever possible. But an ageing population with increasingly complex conditions means that pressures on our front-line staff will only intensify. If we do not build a resilient community care network, our emergency services will bear the brunt. People who wish to spend their final days in the comfort of their own homes surrounded by their loved ones will continue to be trapped in hospital beds because the community support simply isn't there. I'm glad to see the consensus across the Chamber today to work together to ensure that every individual in Wales can face the end of their life with dignity, comfort and peace.

I want to start by thanking the Labour group for bringing this motion forward today, and this important debate. Because this is an issue that should unite every single one of us in this Chamber, regardless of our political differences. Like Sam Rowlands, I want to thank Mark Isherwood, who's no longer in this Chamber, for all the work he did in this space. He was a leader in this area for us. We do miss him, but we look forward to seeing what Sam can do in his stead.

Over the years, I've had the privilege of visiting a number of charities and organisations across Wales that provide care and support for people facing some of the most difficult moments of their lives. I've visited St David's, like Natasha Asghar mentioned. But one particular visit that has stayed with me was a visit to a children's palliative care centre, Tŷ Hafan, close to Cardiff. Seeing the compassion, dedication and extraordinary care provided to children with life-limiting conditions, and support offered not just to the children, but the parents and the families, is something that really does put life in perspective. I want to thank all those people who work in Tŷ Hafan for the amazing work that they do.

But palliative care isn't simply about helping someone at the end of their life, it's about helping people live as well as they possibly can for as long as they possibly can. It's about dignity, comfort, compassion and giving families the opportunity to make precious memories together. I want to pay tribute to every nurse, doctor, healthcare assistant, volunteer and charity worker who makes that possible across our country.

But, Llywydd, behind that incredible work lies a deeply worrying financial reality. Across Wales, hospices support more than 20,000 adults and children every year, yet around two thirds of their income still relies on charitable fundraising. Just last month, Hospice UK and Hospices Cymru warned that an additional £30 million is needed over the remainder of this Senedd term just to protect these essential services. Those are deeply concerning figures for everybody. They're not simply financial pressures on a balance sheet; they have real consequences for patients and families who depend on these services. I welcomed the additional funding that the Welsh Government has provided, including that £4.3 million package announced earlier this year and the work being undertaken to improve how hospices are commissioned, but we must recognise that short-term financial support cannot overtake that long-term security that the service and sector has asked for. We cannot expect our hospices to continue to provide reassurance to families in those most difficult circumstances.

Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I welcome the opportunity to respond to this important debate. I'm also grateful to Ken Skates for bringing it before the Senedd today. I'd also like to thank all Members for their poignant contributions during this debate. This is an issue on which there is a great deal of common ground across the Chamber. There is much in today's motion that we could all agree with.

High-quality palliative and end-of-life care is exceptionally important. It means that people are treated with dignity, compassion and care. That's important to the individual. It's important to families and to carers as well, and it is just as important to the people who support them through some of the most difficult times that they will ever face. Hospices are a crucial part of that care. They provide valuable clinical expertise. They help people to live as well as they can. They work hand in hand with the NHS and community services to provide care that is compassionate and focused on the individual.

I have visited a number of hospices myself, first as an opposition politician, and now as a Minister in Government, and on every occasion, I've been struck by the dedication of the staff, the volunteers and everyone else who is part of their work. I'm sure that I speak on behalf of the whole Chamber when I say that we owe a great debt of gratitude to them.

I fully understand the concerns that have been raised today regarding the pressures that face the sector, and I sympathise entirely with them. Indeed, many of the matters that have been highlighted today were matters that I myself raised when I was on the opposition benches, as we have heard. They were important then, and they remain important today. The financial situation is challenging, and I will not pretend otherwise. Hospices have been clear about the pressures that face the sector: higher energy costs, increases in national insurance contributions, increased demand for services, and uncertainty regarding commissioning arrangements.

I heard those concerns directly when I met with Hospices Cymru recently. We discussed the pressures currently facing the sector. We also discussed the longer term and what needs to be done to place hospice services on a more sustainable footing.

However, recognising the constraints doesn't mean accepting that nothing can be done. There are practical steps that we can and must take to improve services and strengthen planning. Our programme for government contains a clear commitment to address the key challenges facing palliative and end-of-life care. My officials are already working with colleagues across health, social care, regional partnerships and the unpaid carers agenda, to turn that commitment into practical action.

The national service specification supports more consistent planning and delivery. The national competency framework supports workforce development, while the hospice commissioning approach establishes principles for more consistent and sustainable arrangements. The workforce point in the motion is particularly important. The national competency framework provides an important foundation for ensuring staff across health and care have the skills and confidence needed to deliver high-quality palliative and end-of-life care. Palliative care must also be recognised earlier and embedded across the pathways through which people receive care. Through the development of our national cancer strategy and acute and emergency care framework, we are looking at how specialist palliative support can be better integrated across services, supporting earlier access to care, stronger advanced care planning, and more joined-up support for patients and families.

Llywydd, I also want to address the call for fair and sustainable hospice funding. Current arrangements have developed differently across Wales. Hospices have told us that inconsistency and uncertainty make it more difficult to plan services, retain their workforce and invest for the future. Too often, access to palliative and end-of-life care can still be influenced by where people live or how services have developed historically. That variation is not in the interests of patients, families or the wider system. The hospice commissioning guidance gives us a common direction, but its publication was not the end of the process.

The next phase must be about implementation. This includes a national population needs assessment, and work on future commissioning and funding models. The national palliative and end-of-life care programme is working to build a clearer understanding of need across Wales, so that decisions reflect what people require rather than simply reflecting historical patterns of provision. We want to make meaningful progress towards more consistent and sustainable arrangements during this Senedd term. I recognise the sector wants greater certainty and I share that goal. Our focus now is on implementing the commissioning approach and ensuring funding decisions are informed by evidence, agreed service expectations and clearer accountability.

However, ultimately, national frameworks must become practical action on the ground. Through my recent discussions with the sector, including at an event hosted by Marie Curie and Hospice UK, I have heard a very clear message. There is a genuine appetite for collaboration and an appetite to improve the care and support available to people as they approach the end of their lives. That's why I have asked officials to start the work of preparing for a national summit on palliative and end-of-life care. We intend to hold it next March.

I want that summit to bring together the NHS, hospices and other stakeholders. I want it to help to shape future priorities for palliative and end-of-life care in Wales. The intention is not to commission another report, nor to rehearse the challenges that we already understand. The intention is to bring people together around a clear programme of action and delivery during this Senedd term.

Llywydd, I do not underestimate the scale of the challenges that face the sector. I also understand full well the concerns stemming from uncertainty on funding and the workforce. But, at the same time, it is important to recognise the progress that has already been made. It is also important that we maximise the opportunities ahead of us.

Behind every discussion on funding, commissioning and the workforce are real people and real families—people who face some of the most difficult circumstances that any one of us could imagine. They deserve compassionate care, fair care, and care that is available when it is needed most. We have an opportunity during this Senedd term to make a genuine difference by working together across the NHS, hospices, local government and the third sector. By doing that, we can create a more sustainable and more consistent system—a system that puts people at the heart of the care provided.

That is the task that we have committed to as a Government, and that's the task that we will be taking forward in partnership with everyone who plays such an important part in providing palliative and end-of-life care the length and breadth of Wales. Thank you, Llywydd.

Diolch, Lywydd. Today we do have a cosy consensus. It's one that crosses all parties, and it concerns such a vital area of care that's needed at the end of life and when facing terminal illness. There have been many incredibly valuable contributions, which I have, I'm afraid, too little time available to do justice to. We began with Elfed Williams, who shared his very personal experience of the care provided by hospices and their remarkable staff. He reflected, I think, what many subsequently talked about: just how important it is to give our thanks to the people who make end-of-life experiences and terminal illness manageable.

Benjamin Hodge Mckenna reiterated the pressures facing hospices, outlining the future needs of people with palliative and end-of-life care requirements. Natasha Asghar so rightly identified the compassion and the dignity needed by and provided to children and adults in need of palliative and end-of-life care. St David's hospice in Newport is indeed a remarkable place, and Natasha highlighted workforce issues, including staff well-being. Mike Hedges has long championed the work of hospices and NHS staff, who care for people with terminal illness, and he outlined why high-quality care must be available to people in all parts of Wales. Tŷ Gobaith covers a vast area, and I was told on my visit about the particular challenges of people in remote and rural areas. Mike, along with Rebeca Phillips, rightly called for care not to be subject to a postcode lottery and to ensure equal access for all.

Becca Martin shared what she was told by Mel and presented what I thought was a powerful case, with real emotional depth, for greater support for carers to receive vital respite care. Bereavement support, as Becca outlined, continues through and beyond bereavement, often for many months, potentially even years. Cristiana Emsley also shared a deeply personal experience, reminding us of the need and unmet need across our society. This time last year, Marie Curie nurses provided exceptional end-of-life care for my mum, and she was able to come home to die in dignity and familiar surroundings. I think all of us will know of, or eventually need ourselves, the care of angels at the end of our lives.

Sam Rowlands rightly praised Mark Isherwood for his work in this area, and also Jayne Bryant for her work. And Sam, as chair of the all-party group, I'm sure there's nothing that I can say about this subject that you don't already know, but you were absolutely right to say that certainty of funding is the central ask of hospices. And today I think we heard cross-party support for this to be delivered.

Thank you, Llywydd. It's a pleasure to open this debate on behalf of Reform UK Cymru as the shadow finance Minister.

Reform calls for more democratic powers to be put in the hands of local taxpayers. Where Welsh councils propose council tax increases above 4.99 per cent, residents will have the right to approve or reject them through a local referendum. This policy would finally put Welsh taxpayers on an equal footing to their English counterparts. If council leaders want to implement inflation-busting council tax rises year on year, it is only right that they justify it directly to the people who pay—the people who they supposedly work for.

For too many people across Wales, opening the annual council tax bill is something they absolutely dread. Families are struggling with the cost of living. They're working hard to pay their mortgages whilst grappling with energy bills and weekly shopping, yet they're also being asked to find more and more money every year to pay their council tax. In my constituency of Caerdydd Ffynnon Taf, a standard band D bill in Cardiff has risen from around £1,637 in 2022-23 to over £2,000 this year—an increase of almost 23 per cent. And it's not just my constituency. Let us look at the figures elsewhere. In 2025-26, Wrexham and Flintshire increased council tax by 9.5 per cent, Pembrokeshire by 9.35 per cent and Ceredigion by 9.3 per cent. In Conwy, residents have faced successive increases of 9.67 per cent, 8.95 per cent and a further 6.5 per cent this year. And on Ynys Môn, the council's band D charge has risen more than 31 per cent since 2022. On average, that's over £425 more each year added to their council tax bill. Staggering. Yet, the Plaid Cymru-led council on Ynys Môn reported a budget underspend, totalling over £8 million across the last three financial years, and holds £19 million in general reserves. Surely, it is reasonable to ask whether residents were charged more than was necessary.

It isn't just about the money they haven't spent. It's also about the stupid decisions they've committed to spend on. A few weeks ago, the Isle of Anglesey County Council passed a motion to spend £1.1 million swapping household black bins for smaller ones. Only one councillor voted against that proposal, and I am proud to say that that was a sole Reform Cymru councillor—[Interruption.] There'll be more than one soon. A lonely voice of common sense in a crowded room of nonsense. Let me be clear, of course councils face genuine pressures, from social care to schools, roads and waste collection—these all need funding. We understand that and we want to see them fairly funded, but that does not mean that ever-higher council tax bills should be accepted as the norm. Wales has 22 principal local authorities, so let me ask a straightforward question: do we really need 22 separate back offices when councils could work together to save money? Do we need duplicated payroll systems, separate IT contracts and independent procurement arrangements when sharing services could deliver better value? Could councils combine their purchasing power to secure better prices, reduce duplication and free up money for front-line services, such as social care? This is not an attack on local government employees. They are common-sense questions about the political leadership of Welsh councils.

Support the motion. Thank you.

Formally moved.

I want to address why referendums on council tax increases above 4.99 per cent would be utterly unfeasible. Now, I'm not going to get into a debate about whether we should be lowering council tax or not. I'm going to be looking at the practical aspects of whether a referendum would work or not. So, before I start, let's be honest, Reform UK Wales is what you name yourself, not Reform Cymru. Reform Cymru does not exist.

Anyway, in 13 years, across over 300 English authorities, one referendum has been held: Bedfordshire's police and crime commissioner in 2015. It failed. In England, council taxes can be increased without holding a referendum, and that power has been used regularly. If a mechanism designed to trigger local votes produces no local votes, it is not facilitating local democratic choice.

What a referendum does is two things. The first is a ceiling becomes a floor. A council that might have raised council tax by 2 per cent or 3 per cent in an easier year raises it by the maximum every year because the cap compounds. Forgone revenue cannot be recovered later, so the rational response is to build up the reserves that you have and to take the maximum annually and build a buffer. The second is where that cap bites: services are cut rather than referendums held. Birmingham, Nottingham, Croydon, Thurrock and Woking have all issued section 114 notices in recent years, effective local bankruptcy in a system with referendums and still no referendums. It is clear that even though this mechanism exists in practice in England, it is either barely used or superseded because circumstances are so dire.

So, let me turn to why this would operate differently and worse in Wales. A referendum costs a local authority somewhere between £150,000 and £600,000 to run. That is not a large sum against the total budget, but the total budget is the wrong denominator. Between 80 per cent to 85 per cent of a council's spending is committed to statutory duties, teacher salaries, statutory social care, waste collection, additional learning needs. We all know that these need to be accounted and budgeted for. A referendum cannot be taken from those. It comes from discretionary services or from unallocated reserves.

For Cardiff, I'll admit that is absorbable within central contingencies, but for Merthyr Tydfil, a £300,000 cost represents a materially different proportion of unallocated general reserves. In some Welsh authorities, that is between 5 per cent and 7 per cent of the entire safety net in a single hit. In service terms, that is a library, youth provision or a year of community transport. The motion sends it to Merthyr, it doesn't send it to Cardiff.

I'm pleased to support the motion tabled by my colleague Llŷr Powell, but I want to approach it from a slightly different angle, because I've been a town councillor myself, and know something about setting budgets and council tax precepts.

I know it's not always easy; the constituency I represent covers parts of four council areas—Gwynedd, Wrexham, Powys and Denbighshire—and each faces its own challenges. But there's one thing they all have in common: every year, people receive their council tax bill and almost without fail it's gone up again. For someone on a good income, another £100 or £150 might not seem particularly significant, but, for a pensioner or someone living on a fixed income, that's money they've got to find from somewhere, and the trouble is that these increases don't happen in isolation; they build up year after year. A 5 per cent increase this year is added to all the increases that have gone before it, and next year's increase is calculated on top of that. That's why I think we need to look at what people are paying today compared with five or 10 years ago, rather than just looking at the latest percentage, because household incomes certainly haven't kept pace.

Now, having been a town councillor, there's something else I think that's worth explaining. When your council tax bill arrives, you might reasonably assume all that money is going to your county council, but it isn't. Part of it goes towards policing, and, depending on where you live, there's also a contribution to your town or community council. Fire and rescue services are funded through council budgets too. In fact, the police element alone accounts for roughly £1 in every £6 on the average council tax bill in Wales, and that's not an amount your county council decides. I mention this because I think people deserve to know exactly who is responsible for the different parts of their bill, and, if we're going to introduce a referendum threshold, we need to be clear about which increase it applies to.

Now, I don't want anyone to think I'm suggesting councils have an easy job; they don't. Social care costs are rising, schools are under pressure, and councils are being asked to deliver services with increasingly stretched budgets. But that brings me to something else that matters. Is the way we fund local government in Wales actually fit for purpose? Because delivering services in large rural counties like Powys, Gwynedd and Denbighshire is very different from delivering them in a city. You've got smaller communities spread over much greater distances. School transport costs more, providing services costs more, and, in many cases, there simply aren't the economies of scale that larger urban areas can achieve. So, we need a funding system that recognises those differences, not a one-size-fits-all approach that assumes every council faces the same circumstances.

I've never heard people speak in a debate with so much ignorance. I will just respond to one thing. There's the Welsh purchasing consortium, where local authorities get together to buy things cheaply between themselves.

Local government provides many of the key services provided by the public sector in Wales—not just refuse collection, but hundreds of services, from road maintenance to trading standards. No local authority makes increases in council tax because they want to punish their electorate—that would be perverse and self-defeating. Council tax rises are driven by the need to meet demand, meet their statutory obligations and council tax payers' wishes. We must consider that budgetary pressures on local authorities are not a simplistic mathematical exercise. Why 4.99 per cent? I know it makes a good headline. Can Reform publish the calculations behind it? Which services would they consider scrapping? Are they seeking statutory services to be made non-statutory in order for councils to legally stop services? In Reform-led Kent, the budget financial risk register reveals an immediate exposure of £411 million—that's it, £411 million—indicating the scale of uncertainty facing Kent's finances. Risks include potential overspends, underfunded services, the pressure of increasing demand in social care, and infrastructure upkeep. This level of risk raises a question about the council's ability to manage its reserves and avoid more drastic cuts in coming years, gambling with services for the vulnerable and the council's finances.

The previous Senedd's Finance Committee received evidence from witnesses about the differential rates at which inflation affects and has an impact on their budgets. Local government in Wales has many financial pressures outside of its control. Education is a major area of expenditure and teachers' pay and pension increases need to be met in full. Education is the key to moving children out of poverty.

I want to discuss three major financial pressures on local government in detail. The estimated pressure for local government services for this year was £599 million. Social services alone account for almost half of that, equating to over £200 million all told. The provision of social care is critical to the health and care system operating effectively, and plays a key role in achieving positive health outcomes. Investing in social care leads directly to reducing pressure on the NHS, both in terms of keeping people out of hospital and helping people to return home at the appropriate time, reducing delayed transfers of care.

Wales has an ageing population and people are living for longer with complex care needs and dementia. This will continue to increase pressure on care services. The Welsh Local Government Association stress that social services face acute and widening financial challenges, with more than 81,000 people relying on care and support. Care Forum Wales says the sector is under immense strain, grappling with persistent workforce pressures, unsustainable fee rates and increasing employer costs. A committee was shown that fees for nursing care can vary by as much as £9,000 a year between neighbouring authorities. For those who fully fund their own care, so-called 'self-funders', average weekly costs are around £1,156 for residential care and £1,394 for nursing care. The older people's commissioner highlights how funding pressures fall unfairly on service users, with inequitable fee structures and top-up fees leaving many self-funders effectively subsidising publicly funded care home placements.

Excuse me. Have you got Mark Drakeford sitting there or something?

Do you think that the taxpayer, local tax payers, should pay for everything, Mike? How high do you think the council tax should go up every year, because, under Labour, it's going up and up and up?

I can understand—. I understand your position: you want to privatise everything. You want the parents to pay for everything. You want them to pay for everything and you don't want the taxpayer to pay for it. [Interruption.]

Well, we'll find out next May how few of you will survive in local government, and we'll find out in three years' time how few of you are here. Can I suggest you start looking at council by-elections and, if you go back, how long it is since you last won one?

Diolch, Lywydd. Cor blimey, I'm on my hobby horse now, I'm afraid. Now, this may shock some, but I have to begin by congratulating Reform. [Interruption.] Not because you've come up with a brilliant idea of a new policy, but because once again you've demonstrated an impressive talent for taking good Conservative ideas and applying the Reform logo to them. Now, as they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. But let's just remind people in this Chamber who weren't here years ago—. I'll just remind you that you did that, of course, with your pre-election manifesto launch, which was a direct copy-and-paste job of good Conservative policies.

Now then, it was a Welsh Conservative manifesto pledge to fix council tax, and has always been a solid manifesto pledge not only to fix council tax, but to reduce council tax. Indeed, it was the Conservatives who have long noted the importance of low council tax, and, in 2011, I was proud to have been elected here when the Right Honourable David Cameron, Conservative Prime Minister, actually provided a three years' council tax freeze—£50 million—to the Welsh Government, Labour propped up by Plaid Cymru. But guess what, folks? They did not pass those moneys on to secure reductions in council tax, instead spending it on their own pet projects.

We as a party, we fight to keep all taxes low. It is the solid foundation of the Conservative Party to allow those who work hard, and our cash-strapped pensioners, to have more money in their pockets, not just at the end of the week or the end of the month, but day in, day out. Now, we have long advocated—. And I can name the Secretaries, Cabinet Secretaries, Ministers that have been in post here—there isn't one that we haven't raised with, on these benches, the idea of a 5 per cent cap on council tax increases. If you look at our own local authority in Conwy, over the past three years nigh on 10 per cent—9.8 per cent; 9.6 per cent—and people are getting less. We've got more weeds than ever before, toilets closing down, we've got litter on our streets, and people genuinely wonder what on earth they pay their council tax for.

Now, this system already exists in England, where referendums are required for what Government determines to be excessive council tax increases. The principle has been established for more than a decade and it does provide an important democratic safeguard. What is perhaps most remarkable is hearing this proposal from Reform, a party whose own councils in England have discovered that campaigning against tax rises is rather easier than governing in those councils. So, you say one thing before an election—. And this is pre-local government election talk and spin. [Interruption.] No, we mean it, every day. It's not a come-day, go-day. We believe that there should be a referendum on council tax. And, of course, we've made these same arguments for years; long before you were ever a twinkle in Nigel Farage's eye. [Laughter.]

Do you accept that there have been instances where councils have been allowed to increase the council tax without a referendum and, actually, some of the worst examples are in Reform-led councils, including Worcestershire, at 9 per cent?

Sarah, you are right to point out that Reform say one thing and do another. Now—[Interruption.] The figures, I won't repeat them again, but—. A £600-plus increase in the average band D council tax bill in Wales over the past five years. The annual band D council tax bill in Conwy County Borough Council being £2,472 and in Kensington and Chelsea, £1,643. How can that be right?

After more than two decades of Labour-led Government, with Plaid Cymru support, residents are paying more, but are not necessarily seeing improvements in services they deliver. I would ask, Cabinet Secretary, please have a look at ensuring that referendums are brought into Wales for council tax increases of 5 per cent or more. I think that way it would be very fair for our residents, our hard-working families, and, indeed, our cash-strapped pensioners. Diolch.

Before I start—. Mike, I've got to take the bait. You talk of ignorance; we are standing up for taxpayers. Ignorance is your party sitting on its hands for 27 years and doing nothing but cripple our local government. So, let's start—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

Do you want to go around telling elderly people they can't have home care support because you want to save money?

Twenty-seven years of failure. We're putting taxpayers first, Mike, that's what we're doing. And this is an incredibly effective tool. We've already seen it work in England. [Interruption.] Not a single local authority dares go to the electorate this year in England because they recognise that people are under enough financial pressure. Unsurprisingly, these rules have already made careful financial management in local authorities the preferred option, compared to simply asking residents to pay evermore taxes. Inflation-busting tax rises are no longer the default option in England. Currently, these protections offered to English taxpayers are not afforded to Welsh taxpayers.

Our residents in Wales are paying more than average. Over the last decade, residents in Denbighshire have seen their council tax rise by 61.9 per cent; in Flintshire, 75 per cent; Wrexham, 76 per cent; and in Conwy, 84 per cent, in a decade. The inflation rate over the same period was 34 per cent. Despite those excessive increases, this financial year, all of those local authorities increased council tax by above inflation again. And this pattern is set to continue because our local authorities are fighting with their hands tied behind their backs.

As my colleague Cai Parry-Jones has highlighted, we need council mergers. Welsh Labour was wrong to reject the offer made by Conwy and Denbighshire to merge; stopping a proposal that could have seen savings of over £1 million on middle and front-line services, over £2 million on back-office functions and the creation of a single management team that could have saved thousands.

Then we come to the funding formula. We are told that data is fundamental in driving budget allocations through the revenue support grant. But, again, local authorities are being failed in Wales. The formula uses data, Members, that is older than me. It comes from the 1991 census. Unsurprisingly, the WLGA have explained that calls from local authorities have grown for a thorough independent external review to be undertaken. I agree, and we need to see the Government get on and do this, and bring forward the proposals for the formula change urgently.

But why make this change now? There needs to be a wake-up call in this Chamber, Members, about the level of debt that local authorities are carrying. Conwy council has around £230 million of debt; Flintshire, £360 million; and Wrexham over £0.5 billion in debt. This situation is only going to get worse. From my time as a county councillor, I know that when these loans are taken, they are assumed—[Interruption.] I'll take a second intervention.

Can you explain to me, then, given those levels of debt, what does a cap do to reduce those levels of debt that you complain about?

Thank you, Alun. If you let me get through, I'll explain why we need the cap now, before the burden of debt cripples taxpayers.

Which is already there.

What about public services? How do you pay for them?

The situation is getting worse. Councils borrow the debt on repayment terms expected to be 10, 15 or 20 years or more, but the repayment periods are only, often, five years. So, this means that when the loans mature, new deals need to be made and, with current interest rates, they're often much higher than originally forecast, meaning financing often falls to local authorities to find the extra money to continue to finance these debts. These debts are a ticking financial time bomb.

The solution is not more excessive council tax rises, which is the option that many local authorities will turn to, not more reliance on borrowing, not the decline in offers for mergers. It is not continuing a funding formula system based on data that is older than me. The solution is fundamental reform of local government in Wales. That must start with greater protection for our taxpayers. Council tax referenda will do just that. They will raise awareness of the serious state of our local government finance, they will challenge the cabinet and officers to work in a more effective way, and give voters the final say on the financial direction of their local area. Members, I urge you to support this motion.

I think we all know that communities are really struggling in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, and, of course, nobody wants to pay more council tax, especially in these circumstances, and the pressures that are on people at the moment are very real. We recognise that, and that's why this Plaid Cymru Government has prioritised supporting our communities by extending free school meals, expanding free childcare and cutting business rates by 30 per cent for thousands of businesses across the country.

But we also have to recognise, as others have said, that county councils deliver essential services that people rely on every single day, from social care and children's services to schools, highways and waste collections, and those services cost money to run. I was a county councillor in Wrexham for almost 20 years, so I've seen first-hand how difficult budget decisions can be, and I know many of us here understand that reality.

I can assure Reform that no county councillor wants to increase council tax, but councils have statutory responsibilities. They have to protect vulnerable children, care for older people, and maintain essential services. And let's remember that councils have had to deal with the consequences of austerity for the last 16 years, as well as rising demand and also increasing costs. And why 4.99 per cent? What happens if the cost of delivering statutory services rises by more than that? What happens if a referendum rejects the increase needed to maintain those services? Which services would Reform cut? Would it be social care, children's services, support for people with disabilities? Because those are the difficult questions Reform have to answer.

And let's look at Reform's own record across the border as well. Every major council controlled by Reform in England with responsibility for services like education and social care increased council tax this year. When Reform ran Worcestershire County Council, you increased council tax by almost 9 per cent. There wasn't a referendum. So, why is it acceptable for Reform councillors in England to raise council tax by 9 per cent without a referendum, while you're demanding that councils here in Wales face a referendum for anything above 4.99 per cent?

There's a wider point about local democracy here as well. We already elect councillors to make these decisions on behalf of our communities. And in just a few months' time, people right across Wales are going to have the opportunity to hold those councillors to account at the ballot box. Now, of course councils should be challenged, they should be transparent about their budgets, they should explain why increases are necessary, and they should consult meaningfully with residents about their priorities. But we should also recognise that every council faces different pressures, different levels of need, and different financial circumstances.

Would you take an intervention?

Yes.

Thank you. You've moved on to what I wanted to challenge you about, really. Would you acknowledge and agree with me that if local authorities had been funded properly over the last 27 years and continued to be funded properly, they wouldn't need to put council tax up by more than 4.99 per cent?

I've just explained that councils have faced austerity for the last 16 years. As a county councillor, I've seen that first-hand. But, look, the question that you've got to answer is: if a referendum rejects the increase needed to maintain services, what are you going to cut? Whose jobs are going to go? Is it going to be teachers? Is it going to be social workers? Who? Who is it going to be? Because that's the reality of what you're proposing. It's really easy to promise lower taxes, but it's much more difficult to explain to people how you'll protect the services those taxes actually pay for. [Interruption.]

I took your intervention.

Councillors have to make difficult decisions, but that's how local democracy works. That's what accountability means. Political leadership isn't just about the promises you make. It's about being responsible for the consequences of your decisions. And the consequences of what Reform are proposing here today could be very, very serious for our councils delivering essential services, and, importantly, for the communities who rely on them.

Well, we all get that brown envelope, don't we, through the post, or sometimes it's an email nowadays? Council tax is not voluntary, is it? It arrives every year and households have got to find the money to pay for it. When a council wants to raise the bill by more than 4.99 per cent, Reform UK believes that the people paying for it should have the final say. This motion does not ban a higher increase, it simply says: make the case, publish the consequences and ask permission.

The Welsh average band D council tax rose by 7.7 per cent in 2024-25, and by a further 7.2 per cent in 2025-26. Over the last five years, council tax rises across Wales have accelerated significantly, with the Welsh average increasing 7.2 per cent in 2025-26. And nowhere is that seen more than in north-east Wales where I live. In Flintshire, the council tax increase for 2025-26 was 9.5 per cent, and in Wrexham, residents faced an increase of approximately 8.9 per cent. These rises came on top of substantial increases in previous years. Where does it stop? Yet both councils continue to face severe financial challenges in themselves.

From a Flintshire and Wrexham perspective, the situation has become increasingly difficult to manage. Both authorities are forecasting budget deficits in excess of £25 million, as pointed out by Cai. Adult social care, there are issues, demand for services, additional learning needs provision, homelessness services and expensive out-of-county placements continue to grow faster than the funding available to support them.

Councils have had to make difficult decisions for well over a decade now—I'm aware of that. Flintshire and Wrexham have delivered millions of pounds of expenditure reductions since about 2010, but there comes a point where efficiencies are exhausted and residents are simply asked to pay more to cover a growing funding gap.

Before Flintshire approved its recent budget, residents were consulted. Many expressed concern about the rising council tax increases to bridge budget shortfalls during the continuing cost-of-living crisis. Despite these concerns, local people had no binding vote on the outcome—no binding vote, and that's important. When you speak to residents across Flintshire and Wrexham, you hear a common message: council tax keeps rising, but many people believe services are being reduced.

I've seen it myself. Your bins—they don't get emptied every week now. There are all sorts of places where we're seeing things cut. Potholes in the road, local road infrastructure—there are loads of issues. Whether every criticism is justified or not, the perception is clear: people are paying more and feeling they are receiving less in return. That's why local democracy comes into its own. Of course, supporters of the status quo argue that local elections are sufficiently accountable. I disagree with that. A local election provides a general mandate. A referendum provides a specific mandate for an exceptional tax increase.

Will you take an intervention?

Yes.

Securing fair funding for Wales would allow us to further support local government with better funding. Will Reform now join us in our calls for fair funding for Wales?

I'll take no—. In terms of this—. Where it comes from Plaid, who've operated around Labour in this, we're in this mess, where we are, because of what's happened over the years, because of people there and people here. So I'll take none of that.

Reserves are not a magic pot of money that can simply solve every problem. Some reserves—[Interruption.] No. Some reserves are earmarked, some are legally committed and some can only be used for specific purposes. [Interruption.] I did.

There's one thing I would like to mention, by the way, and it just came to me when Sarah Cooper-Lesadd was speaking, and I just wanted to finish on that, actually. On 2 October 2014, under the provisions of the Local Government Act 1972, a referendum was held in the town of Flint on the question to reinstate in-patient beds. The referendum drew 3,500 residents to vote, with 99 per cent saying 'yes'. So, referendums do work in towns, completely.

I've missed some of the speech out, because I realise I'm actually going on now. This is local democracy in action, and I urge Members to support the motion. Thanks very much.

Llywydd, I welcome this opportunity to contribute to this debate on the proposal for a regime of council tax referenda similar to those seen in England. Plaid Cymru does not believe that the Welsh Government should impose arbitrary and fixed national targets on council tax rises, which disregard local circumstances and volatile and diverse economic contexts. Annual decisions about local taxes should be made by locally elected councillors who are accountable to the communities that they serve.

Of course, local decisions need to consider the cost-of-living pressures facing households, just as our national decisions will prioritise actions to reduce the financial pressures facing families. But council tax helps to fund schools, social care services, housing services, policing and all of the local services that our communities rely on every day.

There are many comparisons that have been made during this debate, many of them with England, but there is one comparison that hasn't been made. Despite the referendum policy in England, average band D council tax in Welsh councils is £109 less than in England. So, taxpayers in Wales pay less council tax than council tax payers in England, and they continue to do so even though they have that policy in place in England.

Local referenda under this motion would come with significant costs and bureaucracy needlessly, at a time when resources are better directed at protecting front-line services. Only one local referendum has ever been called under this policy in England, in Bedfordshire, with the police and crime commissioner, and it was estimated that that referendum cost around £600,000 to taxpayers.

Of course, over the past few years, several local authorities in England have been granted permission by Whitehall to exceed referendum limits, that limit of 5 per cent. There are several references already made to this. For example, one of the exceptions granted was in February of this year for Reform-led Worcestershire County Council, and they received permission to increase council tax by 9 per cent, which is higher than any increase seen across Wales this year. The average increase in Wales this year at council level was 4.8 per cent, which is the lowest average increase since 2022. The increase chosen by councils was as low as 3.6 per cent in some cases, demonstrating accountability for their own choices on that local level.

Working with the previous Government in passing the final budget for this year, Plaid Cymru helped to secure a stronger budget settlement for local government, delivering an increase of £282 million in the final settlement, ensuring that every council receives an increase of more than 4 per cent, by supporting the funding floor. This additional investment helped to ease immediate pressures on councils and contributed to lower council tax increases the length and breadth of Wales.

Llywydd, as I have mentioned several times in this Siambr, the Welsh Government faces an incredibly difficult budgetary position in the next financial year, with a real-terms decrease in both our resource and capital budgets. And local authorities, too, face increasing spending pressures across the services that they are responsible for. That's why our draft budget next month will prioritise front-line public services, and I hope that we can work across parties in this Senedd to deliver an adequate settlement for local government.

Because it's not an arbitrary cap that we need, dictated to local authorities by a finance Minister sitting in Cathays Park. That's not what will protect local taxpayers and the services that they rely upon. It's sufficient funding for public services that we need, for the Welsh Government settlement from the UK Treasury in the first instance, and then in that settlement to local authorities passed on by this Senedd. Both settlements will be the greatest influence on the level of council tax levied next year by our county councils.

Llywydd, this debate also highlights a wider principle. We believe, as a Government, in autonomy and accountability, be it for local authorities or for us as a Senedd and for us as a Welsh Government. That's why Plaid Cymru has long argued that Wales needs greater fiscal powers, including in relation to taxation. With stronger budget settlements and flexible revenue-raising powers, we would be better placed to shape our budgets, strengthen public services and provide more sustainable funding for local government over the longer term.

Diolch, Lywydd. I thank everyone who has participated this afternoon for all the contributions, and for the humorous interjections, shall I say. It certainly kept us entertained this afternoon. Our motion rests on a simple principle: if a council wants to raise council tax by more than 4.99 per cent, it should ask the people who pay for it. England has had that rule for years, Wales currently has no limits.

If I can turn to Cai, who is sitting behind me, who opened the debate and highlighted the council tax bill that every year each and every one of us and those that we represent in our constituencies absolutely dread, because, like I say, there is no limit. We do not know what's going to hit that doorstep. He also highlighted that in his own constituency, they have seen rises of over 23 per cent, which is absolutely scandalous. We talk about the cost of living. How are families going to be affording that increase?

He has also highlighted some of the misspending, shall I say—£1.1 million on changing the size of black bins. If that's a government's priority, I seriously question it. Janet, I'm glad you highlighted that it was the one Reform councillor. Thank goodness for that one Reform councillor who objected to that stupid notion.

We also had Andrew, who shared his experience of being on a town council and highlighted the vital services that the fire service does in our communities. I'm sure the Cabinet Minister would agree that the fire service have had their hands full this year with the wildfires and they do a sterling job. I met with them recently and they are under huge financial pressures. I know in our own constituency in Gower and Swansea, they're actually taking on more financial burden from the Welsh ambulance service with the co-responder unit in Reynoldston. So, again, they've taken on more pressures, more statutory duties without the resources. I think it's important to mention the fire service and also the police service, which also contribute to the council tax bill. I don't think many of the public realise that is included.

Tom, I know you were another councillor as well in north Wales. The borrowing amounts are eye-watering that councils are having to do. Again, it goes back to those statutory duties. We are putting those councils' backs against the wall. I know, speaking of when I was a Swansea councillor, we were lucky we had a fantastic responsible finance officer who borrowed at the right time. But I am equally aware that not all councils, not all 22, borrowed at the same rates that we did in Swansea.

Shall I start?

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to have the opportunity to open the debate today. I will be giving a minute of my time to John Clark, Paul Rock, Anna Nicholl and James Evans. I want to begin by outlining why I am personally invested in this issue. I have been a lifelong environmentalist. I run a farm where I've dedicated a significant amount of my land to habitat restoration and tree planting. Prior to farming, I have a background in conservation and countryside management. I have also run an organic, environmentally conscious farm in France, where I saw first-hand the value of good land management, protecting biodiversity and working with nature rather than against it.

The ease of operating in France has helped me identify where we have gone wrong in Wales. For me, environmental stewardship has never been an abstract political concept; it is something I live and practice every day. It's about the condition of the land you pass on to the next generation, it is about the wildlife that inhabits your fields and hedgerows and it's about the health of our rivers, the quality of our soil, the responsibility we all have to leave our countryside in a better condition than we found it. And it was precisely because of that commitment that I became increasingly frustrated with the bureaucracy I encountered in Wales. Too often, I found a system more interested in penalising conservationists for breaching some trivial rule buried deep in a dense guidance document, rather than encouraging landowners to do the right thing for the environment. The spirit of the guidance should be more important than a strict, legalistic interpretation where conservationists can be fined for petty reasons. People who want to restore habitats, plant trees and improve biodiversity should be treated as partners, not potential rule breakers. That experience helped spur me to stand for elected office, and that brings me to the purpose of today's debate.

Environmental stewardship should not belong to one political party, one ideology, or one side of the Chamber. It should be a common cause. For small c conservatives, environmental conservation is central to our political philosophy. Yes, too often the tradition is overlooked because the debate about the environment has become almost entirely dominated by carbon reduction, which, whilst important, should not dominate Government action over other concerns. Many to the right, myself included, object to the direction of current environmental policy, but we should not allow that disagreement to be mistaken for indifference towards the environment itself. I believe climate change is a serious, potentially existential challenge that must be addressed, and we cannot simply ignore the evidence to pretend that a changing climate presents no risks, but we must distinguish between the challenge we face and the policies Governments choose to pursue in response to it.

I have profound concerns about the approach to net zero. The UK can impose ever more ambitious targets on itself and introduce costly regulations, but climate change is a global problem driven by global emissions. The effectiveness of our response must therefore be judged in a global context. My concern is that policies pursued in the name of net zero will make little difference to the global climate trajectory if they are not matched by meaningful international action, while not imposing enormous costs on ordinary people here at home, because those costs are not borne equally. We should not ask people on the lowest incomes to shoulder disproportionate costs for policies whose global impact depends on what the rest of the world does, when the UK's impact is so minuscule.

If the United Kingdom reached net zero by next week, would the climate stop changing? Of course it would not. That does not mean we should abandon efforts to reduce emissions, it means we should pursue them sensibly, in concert with other countries, and in a way that is economically sustainable and commands public support.

We should also be honest about the need to adapt to the changes in climate we face. We need resilient infrastructure, effective flood prevention, healthy soils, restored peatlands, and landscapes better equipped to withstand drought, wildfire and extreme rainfall. We must also consider the standardisation of air conditioning in homes and schools, and fund agricultural science that looks at how crops may have to adapt to a changing climate.

Mitigation and adaptation must go hand in hand, but my concern is that the single-minded focus of carbon targets has distracted us from other pressing environmental problems—problems where we could make tangible difference to people's lives and the natural world around us.

We're told that even though Britain only emits 1 per cent of global carbon dioxide emissions, whilst China and India emit 40 per cent, we should pursue net zero as an example. Ironically, our main emissions cuts have come from exporting steel and other heavy industries to those same countries. But they cannot follow our example; they cannot export their emissions to themselves, and the goods we now import are often produced under weaker environmental rules.

Net zero in its current form is ideologically driven, it is damaging our economy and it will not deliver its aims. We need to look after the environment without crippling our industry or sacrificing our energy security. Nuclear power offers that practical path. It's carbon neutral, highly reliable and statistically the safest form of large-scale energy. Yes, the upfront costs and build times are significant, but the long-term benefits outweigh them. It's time to stop delaying. Let's re-industrialise, invest in nuclear and protect both our economic and environmental future. Thank you.

My constituents see and smell the wildfires; the rising threat of flooding is constantly at their door. Our farmers are worried about the viability of their businesses and their communities; people are concerned about how they can afford to heat their homes, pay their bills and feed their families. We can ease pressure on household costs by helping people to move to sustainable energy and fossil-fuel-free heating. So, it's very disappointing to see the UK Government's support for heat pumps evaporating before our eyes. Heat pumps lower heating bills, but people need to be supported to make the change. Also, Wales is blessed with extraordinary natural resources. We have the potential to generate all the renewable energy our nation needs, so that we can reduce energy bills, make families less vulnerable to rising fuel costs and cut carbon emissions at the same time. This is about delivering greater energy security, warmer homes and a more sustainable future for our children. So, when we put social justice at the centre of climate action, and we put climate action at the centre of social justice, we don't have to choose between helping people and helping the planet, we must, and we can, do both.

I'd like to thank David Mills for bringing forward this debate and giving me a slot to speak.

Environmental stewardship should be common ground across this Chamber, not because the challenges are easy, but because they affect every community in Wales. As a member of the climate change committee, I'm acutely aware of the scale of those challenges. Nearly one in five assessed species in Wales is now threatened with extinction, and species abundance has fallen by around 20 per cent in a generation. In Ceredigion Penfro, those pressures are felt in the rivers, peatlands and coastal habitats that define our communities. We're fortunate to be home to the Dyfi UNESCO biosphere, Cardigan Bay and some of Wales's most important marine and terrestrial wildlife habitats. They're not only environmental assets, they're economic assets too.

This debate should not simply be about what we stand to lose; it should be about what we stand to gain. The transition to a low-carbon economy presents major opportunities for Wales—opportunities to create jobs, attract investment, strengthen energy security and support thriving rural economies. The same is true for nature recovery. Whether it is tackling agricultural pollution, restoring peatlands, improving river quality or supporting sustainable food production, there are solutions that can work for nature and for people. We need to move beyond denial, beyond blame and beyond the sense of hopelessness that too often creeps into these discussions. Instead, we need leadership, we need collaboration—and I agree that should extend to international collaboration—and we need the confidence to seize the opportunities that come from responding to the climate and nature emergencies together. Because, if Wales gets this right, environmental stewardship will not just protect what we value, it will help build a more resilient, prosperous and sustainable future for all our communities. Diolch.

I'll be short, because I know we're running out of time. As probably the third longest serving Member still left in this Chamber this afternoon, we've been through a lot of different changes, from 'Brexit and our land' to 'Sustainable Farming and our Land', and we've always talked about sustainability through that. I asked the Cabinet Minister a question the other day about the optional and collaborative layers, about ring-fenced funding, and he body-swerved the question quite remarkably, actually. But it'd be quite interesting to know from him, through those optional and collaborative layers, how much are you going to ring-fence for things like biodiversity, for increasing wildlife, for making sure that wildfires are addressed, and flooding. So, through your answer, Cabinet Minister, it'd be quite nice to see if you don't body-swerve the question again.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Could I start by thanking the Member for tabling this debate and giving us the opportunity to discuss this topic once again, and also to the other Members for their contributions this afternoon? We don't always agree in this Chamber, but I do agree with the central proposal behind today's debate, which is, of course, that environmental stewardship is not the responsibility of just one party. It is not the responsibility of one sector or even one generation. It's a shared responsibility, and the potential benefits of that reach every community in Wales, whether that is clean rivers, healthy soils, productive farms, nature recovery, clean energy, stronger local economies. These aren't competing priorities. They are all connected, in my view, and that understanding, of course, is at the heart of this Government's programme for government. It shapes our approach to farming, water, clean energy, rural resilience. It also shapes the way that we create the conditions for sustainable growth, and, of course, we focus on practical delivery—not stewardship as a theory, but stewardship in practice, on the ground.

We're developing, as Members know, Wales's first climate and nature action plan. It'll bring together actions across government and across society to restore nature, to strengthen climate resilience, to support sustainable development, setting out a pathway towards our ambition in relation to net zero, but also substantive nature recovery as well. And a just transition will be baked into our approach, so that we avoid some of the mistakes that have happened in the past where some communities have been damaged and left behind by much of this.

And I would refer to an example that I've used previously when it comes to this. Retrofitting homes is one policy that's being put forward as a means of reducing carbon emissions. But, of course, it isn't a binary policy, because retrofitting homes provides people with support for the cost-of-living crisis because it will lower bills. More energy-efficient homes will mean lower energy bills. Retrofitting homes means jobs. People will need to be employed to retrofit those homes, bringing further economic benefits. It'll give people warmer homes to live in. And that, in itself, I think is something that we should aspire to. But there are health benefits from that as well, because we will see, as a consequence of people not living in cold and damp homes, fewer children being raised in those homes and consequently suffering from respiratory challenges. We will see fewer winter excess deaths amongst our older population. So, net zero isn't binary. It's an opportunity to bring a number of additional benefits with it.

And environmental stewardship as well can't sit within one portfolio. Decisions on housing, on transport, on food production, on skills, on economic development, public investment, they all matter. Every part of Government has a role here. And that ambition, of course, has to be backed up then by strong governance and accountability. And the Environment (Principles, Governance and Biodiversity Targets) (Wales) Act 2026 creates, doesn't it, the independent Office of Environmental Governance Wales to monitor environmental law, and hold public authorities to account. Statutory biodiversity targets will provide the long-term focus and transparency needed to halt and reverse biodiversity loss. And we'll develop those, by the way, using science and evidence. Taken together, the legislation, the independent oversight and targets give us a strong foundation for long-term nature recovery.

Now, farmers are at the heart of much of this approach, but not just only farmers. There's a wider societal piece that's playing out here as well. But farmers do manage, of course, most of the land in Wales and they play a vital role as stewards of our countryside. Many of the habitats and landscapes we value depend on that active management. They produce our food, they sustain rural businesses and communities, and help shape the landscape that defines Wales very often.

Cabinet Minister, will you take an intervention?

I will very briefly because I have a very long speech.

You mentioned wildfires and peatland. I know there are other Members in the Chamber who represent Blaenau Gwent, for example. If you look at Llangynidr, for example, it's almost lost all of its peatland. It would just be interesting to hear from the Government exactly what you're going to do in terms of restoration and the partners you're going to work with up there to make sure the peat is restored. Because if you want to hold water back, that is a way of doing it.

Yes, you're right. I will be coming on to wildfires specifically in a minute, but that has to be a collective effort. You will know that a summit is being held, and I'll say a little bit about that in a minute and then we can maybe develop that a little bit. I've lost my train of thought now, which is always the risk when you take interventions.

Woodland and tree planting—that's it. That also does have an important role to play. Through the national forest programme, of course, we're expanding and connecting woodland across Wales, restoring habitats, improving access to nature as well, and strengthening climate resilience while supporting communities and the Welsh timber sector as well, which is critical in this context also. We're also supporting landowners and communities through various woodland creation and restoration grants, helping deliver the right tree in the right place so that it benefits biodiversity, water quality, carbon storage and landscape resilience.

Community groups, local authorities and volunteers are also restoring nature in our towns and villages, which is an important area that I wish to see more work done with. We want everyone to experience and benefit from nature close to home and that matters, again, for health and well-being, for children and families and for communities that maybe have not always enjoyed equal access to good-quality green space.

Llywydd, there is increasing urgency to carry out this work, of course, as Wales experiences the effects of a changing climate. This year, we have seen the drought, the heatwaves and the devastating wildfires that were referred to earlier, as many communities continue to face flood risks now as the winter closes in. Climate change isn't a challenge for the future; it is the reality that faces us right now and we must foster resilience where we can before these crises emerge. And that means natural flood management measures, it means peatland restoration, healthier soils and habitats; improved catchment management schemes; and creating communities, of course, that are more ready to face future risks.

The First Minister will convene a climate change and resilience summit for Wales on 22 October. That will bring together partners to learn from recent events and to strengthen preventative processes, which will assist with readiness for events such as these in future, and help with the response when we face these challenges moving forward. I see that event as the trigger for starting to put those pieces together from the point of view of addressing the consequences of what's already happened, but also to make us more ready as we move forward for future events that will happen—I'll say that they will happen rather than 'could happen', because we know what the trajectory is.

So, we continue to invest heavily in flood risk management with over £85 million made available to risk management authorities in Wales this year, and that's not simply about delivering individual interventions, is it? It's about strengthening collaboration, improving our understanding of what works, sharing lessons to support future natural flood management and resilience activity as well, across Wales. And flood risk cannot be managed by any one organisation acting alone—I would reiterate that point again—and that's why, of course, we're refreshing the membership of our flood and coastal erosion committee, so that it can use its expertise and support Government in advising on policy strategy and long-term resilience. And that means, of course, working closely with risk management authorities, obviously, but Natural Resources Wales, Dŵr Cymru, Hafren Dyfrdwy, landowners, businesses and local communities as well. And community engagement is central to this approach, ensuring that local knowledge and lived experience help shape decision making and that resilience planning for the future.

And the same principle of course applies to water quality. People rightly expect cleaner rivers and healthier water environments, and Government, regulators, water companies, land managers and communities all very much have a role there as well. We're progressing water reform, as Members will know, including proposals for a Welsh economic water regulator, with stronger powers to drive investment, reduce pollution and secure long-term improvements. Stewardship succeeds when responsibility is shared and when action is co-ordinated. And it's not only a rural agenda, by the way; as I said earlier, access to nature supports health and well-being, green spaces strengthen communities, and environmental investment can support jobs and local economies. That's why our programme for government includes action on skills, ensuring that Wales has the workforce to deliver on our ambitions, while supporting, of course, good jobs and growth.

So, Llywydd, today's debate has shown, I think, that Members may disagree on individual policies, and it's quite fair for that to happen, but that there is also common ground here. We all want healthy rivers. We want nature restoration, productive farms, resilient communities, a Wales that is more prepared for floods, drought and wildfires, and environmental action that supports jobs and prosperity. But the challenge, of course, is turning that common ground into practical action. That calls for more than just individual projects or short-term initiatives. It demands a long-term commitment, clear accountability and policies that work together. It also requires us to acknowledge the knowledge and the experience of farmers and land managers, communities and environmental organisations across Wales. Good stewardship must shape the way that we support the agriculture industry, the way that we manage water, restore nature, develop clean energy and strengthen communities.

But this all, of course, means supporting those who manage our land and our natural resources, listening to those people who know their areas best and working together to ensure long-term resilience. It means acknowledging that stewardship does not fetter prosperity, but that it is a fundamental component of it. Healthy ecosystems support productive farms, resilient supply chains, safer communities and a stronger economy in Wales. That is the journey that's ahead of us: shared stewardship; practical delivery; and a Wales that is more resilient, healthier and prosperous.

Therefore, I hope that Members in all parts of this Chamber will be able to work together to help the Government to achieve this vision. Thanks.