Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee

If I could take papers to note first of all. Papers to note—everyone content? Any issues?

Right, we move on to the substantive part now, which is the Development of Tourism and Regulation of Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill Stage 2 proceedings. I'll invite the Cabinet Secretary to introduce himself and his officials, please.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I'm Mark Drakeford. I'm the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the Bill, and with me this morning I have Rebecca Hawkins, who has been leading the Bill team, and Kate Lewandowska who is from the OLC, the Office of the Legislative Counsel, responsible for the drafting.

Thank you very much. We are undertaking Stage 2 proceedings of the Development of the Tourism Regulation and Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of amendments tabled, marshalled in order, agreed by committee on 21 January. The groupings list show amendments that have been grouped to facilitate debate. The order in which the amendments are called and moved for the vote is dictated by the marshalled list. For the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and Rhys ab Owen, as they are not members of this committee.

For expediency, I will assume that they wish me to move all amendments. I will do so at the appropriate place on the marshalled list. Cabinet Secretary and Rhys ab Owen, if you do not wish a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate this at the point of the proceedings. In line with the usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and to the Cabinet Secretary are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during the proceedings, please do so by passing a note to the legal adviser or the clerk.

We now move to group 1 of amendments, development of tourism.

I call upon Rhys ab Owen to speak to amendment 64.

Thank you very much, Chair. I'd like to start by thanking Mostyn from my office, the clerking team and the legal team of this committee for all their help, and also stakeholders from the sector who have been of great assistance. I also thank the Cabinet Secretary's office for a constructive meeting yesterday, and I look forward to continuing with that.

It is important to listen to the sector. When I spoke during the general principles of this debate, I did highlight concerns from the sector who, rightly or wrongly, don't believe that their voice is heard clearly enough in this place. In fairness to the Welsh Government, their criticism often is against this place in general, against Cardiff Bay in general, rather than against the Welsh Government alone. So, I think it is very important.

The Cabinet Secretary and I, and some of his colleagues and I, have had disagreements in Plenary about so much legislation being left to the final weeks and months of this Senedd term, because I think there is—. And I understand the reasons as to why, and I understand in the fourth term this will happen even more because it's a much shorter term. But there is an issue here, and there is certainly a perception issue here, that if we leave so much legislation to the last months and weeks, there'll be a perception that people think that this legislation is rushed, and that there is not enough scrutiny or time to consider the legislation, especially when the narrative and the thought have moved on already in the media and in the minds of a lot of us here towards the election and the next term. So, I think it is important that we have opportunities like this to air the voices of stakeholders, and that's what I try to do with my amendments.

The core of amendment 64 is to forge a stronger partnership between representatives of the industry and Welsh Ministers, to try and tackle that perception within the industry that we are not listening—that this place and the Welsh Government are not listening. As it stands, Visit Wales is a team within Welsh Government responsible for the development and promotion of the visitor economy. However, those key responsibilities lack input from the sector. The industry survey undertaken by the Wales Tourism Alliance in 2024 heard comments such as this: 'Visit Wales will never deliver for Wales.' The Welsh Affairs Committee found in 2023 that Visit Wales was unsuccessful in encouraging Welsh business to take up all of the allocated slots on trade missions. And they heard evidence from Anthony Pickles, former head of tourism affairs at VisitBritain. He said while Visit Wales marketing had been good,

'there is a panoply of issues that if it was an independent body would be fixed',

including poor engagement with business leaders in the sector, and that if it was an independent arm's-length body,

'it would make braver policy calls'

and produce more authentic marketing. Ultimately, he believed that the current structure left Visit Wales staffed by civil servants who don't have the operational independence to push back on ministerial instruction. VisitBritain, of course, is independent from government. VisitScotland was established by the Development of Tourism Act 1969, and as you know, the equivalent Welsh Tourist Board was dissolved in 2005, and now we have Visit Wales. Rather than establish Visit Wales as a separate entity, which I probably would prefer, this amendment does strengthen the tourist sector's role in oversight of the Welsh Ministers’ tourism functions, by establishing a panel to advise Welsh Ministers. I encourage you to act on the feedback from the sector and give them a greater say in the direction of tourism policy in Wales by backing amendment 64.

Amendment 65 is straightforward, as it requires Welsh Ministers to prepare and publish an annual report on the exercise of their tourist development functions. Again, this would require input from the sector, as I have added a requirement to consult with the new tourism advisory panel and other persons considered appropriate.

I thank Sam Kurtz and the Welsh Conservative group for formally supporting amendment 66, which would mean that Welsh Ministers 'must' rather than ‘may’ prepare and publish a code of practice that provides guidance and best practice. To me, it is essential that the code is issued, so I would be pleased to understand why the Welsh Government are making it optional for Welsh Ministers.

And finally, amendment 67 would require the code to give guidance about complying with general fitness standards. This suggestion has been developed following co-operation with the Professional Association of Self-Caterers UK Cymru. The hope is that it will help tackle the clear evidence heard by this committee that there is disquiet among witnesses around the general standard provided in section 7, and deliver the clear guidance needed to ensure consistency.

My overriding aim, as I said at the beginning, in this group of amendments, is to improve the level of co-operation between Welsh Government and the tourism sector. Doing so should help make this Bill a success and strengthen sector confidence in Wales. Diolch.

Thank you very much. Sam Kurtz.

Thank you, Chair. Nothing specific to add other than reiterating Rhys ab Owen’s views on the process and procedure and the timescale that's been undertaken in this legislative process, and to take some of your own words, Chair, that during the scrutiny of this, the legislative fatigue that the sector is facing at the moment after a lot of changes—. Just to note how the sector feels after an immense change in the last four or five years.

It's always good to be quoted. [Laughter.] Any other Members wish to speak? Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. Before turning to the amendments, I wonder if I could just make two general points. First of all, of course, to thank all of those who've contributed to the development of the Bill and the scrutiny process, particularly members of this committee and those who've tabled amendments for consideration today. I'd also just make this general point, hoping that it will help the committee: the Government's amendments in front of this committee seek to clarify the way in which the Bill is intended to work and to respond to issues raised during Stage 1. However, my officials continue to review the Bill, and it's likely that the Government will come forward with further areas in which the Bill could be amended at Stage 3. I'll try and indicate as we go through the amendments where that further thinking is taking place, in case that's helpful to the committee in its work this morning.

So, I'll turn to the amendments in group 1. As you've heard, the amendments seek to add an extra procedure to the exercise of the general tourism development functions of the Welsh Ministers, as they are restated in Part 2 of the Bill. The amendments are unnecessary. They confuse a view of the sector that is about not listening, when what the sector really means is that the Government doesn't always do what the sector would like us to do.

There are ample opportunities for the sector to engage with Ministers already. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning meets regularly with the visitor economy forum. I'm not persuaded that we need a new bureaucratic mechanism, a new advisory panel, when we already have a functioning and effective visitor economy forum. It provides advice to the Minister on tourism in Wales. That forum includes the chairs of all the regional forums across Wales, which meet regularly to discuss and provide feedback on tourism in their area and wider policy issues.

I have myself attended the forum to discuss issues relating to this Bill and the Bill that set up the visitor levy, and, of course, during the COVID period, I met very regularly with the forum, given the impact that the pandemic had on their operation. I'm really not persuaded that there is a need for further bureaucratic structures to allow those conversations to take place. As I say, Chair, there is a difference between opportunities to discuss and to listen and the fact that even when we have those opportunities, there will still be disagreements about decisions and the right courses of action.

Amendment 65, as you've heard, would require an annual report on the exercise of tourism functions. I do not want Welsh Government officials spending time on the production of yet another annual report. It's said time and again on the floor of the Senedd that the Government needs to focus on delivery, and that's what I want my officials to do. I want them to focus on delivering this Bill rather than reporting always on what has taken place. And in any case, the Senedd is able to scrutinise Ministers on their plans and their actions to support the visitor economy.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Rhys ab Owen to reply.

I've nothing to add.

No reply. We'll move to the vote. The question is that amendment 64 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We have an objection. The question is that amendment 64 be agreed. Those in favour, please show. Those against. Three and three. It's a tied vote. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative—that is, against the amendment—in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

I move amendment 65 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Those in favour. Those against. There is a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative—that is, against the amendment—in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

I move amendment 66 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to the vote. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed. Those in favour. Those against. We have a tied vote. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative in accordance with Standing Order 6.20, and the amendment falls.

I move amendment 67 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We move to the vote. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Those in favour. Those against. We have a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative—that is, against the amendment—in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

We now move to group 2, meaning of visitor accommodation.

I move amendment 68 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. I ask Rhys ab Owen to speak to amendment 68, the lead amendment in this group.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. This group relates to the meaning of regulated visitor accommodation. Amendment 70 deletes subsection 5(2)(c), which would mean all accommodation provided in mobile homes, vessels or other vehicles is regulated visitor accommodation. My aim with this amendment is to take the opportunity to ask the Cabinet Secretary for clarity with regard to what is meant by 'semi-permanently situated'.

For example, would a vessel be able to avoid being categorised as registered visitor accommodation if it moved berth? Would a mobile home be able to avoid the categorisation by rolling back an inch, and, as such, not being permanently situated in one place? My fear is that there may be a loophole in section 5(2)(c) as currently drafted. As such, I would be grateful for the opportunity to co-operate with you to see if this is the case and to try and close it.

Amendments 68 and 69 aim to tackle what I consider to be the aspect of this Bill that is most likely to undermine your admirable aim to create a level playing field in Wales, and that is the exclusion of spare rooms. I've listened carefully to what you have said about this, but, looking again—. I quoted to you in the general principles debate what Travel Chapter and Sykes Holiday Cottages said, that this would be higher risk with regard to spare rooms than traditional short-term let operators.

As I also quoted to you on the general principles, across Cardiff, there are 335 private rooms, spare rooms, listed on Airbnb. As it stands, they will not need a licence, while entire homes that are available on Airbnb will. Clearly, this is a significant inconsistency that could negatively affect the development of tourism in Wales and effective regulation of visitor accommodation. Importantly—and I would be grateful for your views on this, Cabinet Secretary—I can't see why the desired outcome cannot be achieved.

As I've quoted to you before, Scotland have delivered this through the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (Licensing of Short-term Lets) Order 2022. Of course, I concede that the 2022 Order approaches the concept of letting in a different way to the approach taken in this Bill. In particular, it frames licenced activity by reference to the use of residential property provided to a guest for commercial consideration, subject to certain criteria and a list of exceptions and exclusions.

Through the kind co-operation of the legal team, the amendment before you has been drafted to include spare rooms by creating a new category of regulated visitor accommodation, as distinct from self-catering, self-contained, by reference to accommodation being the visitor accommodation provider's main home. You will see that the existing exclusions apply to this new category, most notably sections 5(2)(b), so that the stay in these circumstances must be short term and for the purposes of business, leisure or educational trips.

I hope that you will all be able to support this solution, so that the Bill delivers a level playing field across Wales. Diolch yn fawr.

We will test your hope shortly. Are there any comments from any other Members? Sam.

Thank you, Chair. While I appreciate Rhys ab Owen's definition and description of amendments 68, 69 and 70, I'm not yet convinced that these amendments will not negatively impact the wider legislation. Therefore, I will be abstaining at this point in Stage 2, but welcome the opportunity to work with both the Member and the Cabinet Secretary at Stage 3, as there is, as rightly highlighted, an opportunity to minimise a loophole in spaces such as rooms within properties.

Any other Members? No. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. I'll first deal with the Government amendments in this group. Amendment 1 extends the scope of the regulation-making power in section 5 of the Bill to allow it to also amend the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Act 2025. The alignment between the visitor levy Act and this Bill is a very important one. I'll return on a number of occasions this morning to amendments where we seek to ensure that that alignment is as smooth and as watertight as possible.

Amendment 2 introduces a minimum consultation period of 12 weeks for any regulations specifying a new type of regulated visitor accommodation. That responds to recommendation 9 from this committee's Stage 1 report to allow sufficient time for stakeholders and the Senedd to consider any such proposals.

I will turn now to Rhys's amendments, starting with amendment 68. This is the spare rooms amendment. The view of the Government is this: in principle, I see the case for that extension. I was pleased that voices in the sector were calling for that expansion, and I support the principle of a level playing field for those offering self-catering accommodation. My concerns remain that further work is needed before the scheme should be extended to accommodation of this type. The Member said in group 1 that the sector was anxious that this was a Bill in the final stages of this Senedd term and that things were being rushed. I don't accept that in terms of the substantive part of the Bill because it's been in preparation for five years. But I do think that a late amendment of this sort would be legitimately open to that sort of criticism.

What does the amendment actually secure, Chair? It secures that the room itself will be subject to a licensing regime. What happens when the person leaves the room, when they go to use the communal facilities that are there in the context that this amendment sets out? Suddenly, when you're using communal kitchens or communal bathrooms, you're not subject to any form of licensing. There is a great deal of further and quite detailed work that needs to be done if the licensing scheme in future were to be extended to single rooms. This amendment does not do that work. The Senedd has not had an opportunity to do that work. I think we would be genuinely open to criticism by trying to have a rushed solution at this stage in the Bill's passage through the Senedd. It's for those reasons, those practical reasons, rather than reasons of principle, that I will be asking the committee not to accept that proposal this morning.

My reading of amendment 69—and maybe the Member will want to pick this up in any reply—is that it paradoxically has exactly the opposite effect. It significantly narrows the scope of the power in the Bill to expand the types of visitor accommodation that could be regulated in future. From what he said in his opening remarks, I may have misunderstood that being its purpose, but its effect would be to mean that it would be far more difficult in future for a future Senedd to expand the licensing scheme to cover hotels, bed and breakfasts, bunkhouses, campsites and caravan sites in the types of accommodation that can be specified in regulations.

Rhys.

Thank you, Chair. Move to the vote.

Okay, no problem at all. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore move to the vote. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed. A show of hands. Those in favour. I'll get it right. That's amendment 68. Those against. Those abstaining. A tied vote. Therefore, I use my casting vote in the negative. Is that correct? Not agreed.

I move amendment 69 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 69 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Those in favour of 69. Those against. Abstentions. A tied vote. Therefore, I use my vote to cast the negative, and the amendment is not agreed and it falls.

I move amendment 70 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I therefore ask those in favour for a show of hands. Those against. Those abstaining. There is a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative and the amendment falls.

I move amendment 1 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 1 is carried.

I move amendment 2 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed. Does any Member object? I see no objection. Amendment 2, in accordance with Standing Order 17.34, is carried.

We therefore move on to group 3, fitness of visitor accommodation premises. The third group of amendments relates to the fitness of visitor group accommodation premises. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 75. I call on Samuel Kurtz to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Samuel Kurtz.

Thank you very much, Chair. Firstly, can I put on record my thanks to the clerking and legal team here within the committee, to the sector for their engagement and support in drafting and working on these amendments, and to the willingness of the Cabinet Secretary to meet and work collaboratively on some issues yesterday? That is—. Most grateful.

I reiterate the point on the legislative fatigue that the sector is feeling after five years of change following the pandemic and this Senedd term. I would raise a point that, of the 91 amendments tabled, the majority have been tabled by the Welsh Government, which for me would be justification of a slightly hastened legislative process in the end term of this Senedd term. However, I am, as I mentioned, grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his willingness to work on some collaborative elements.

Moving on to amendment 75, this amendment is about making the Bill workable, flexible and futureproof. As currently drafted, section 7 hard-codes a long and highly technical checklist into primary legislation. While the items listed are sensible, embedding that level of detail in the Act makes the framework rigid and difficult to update. If safety standards change, for example, in relation to carbon monoxide fire safety, water contamination or building condition, the Welsh Government would have to return to the Senedd to amend the Act, even for relatively minor technical updates. That is an inefficient use of legislative time and risks the law becoming outdated or overly tick-box in practice. This amendment replaces the fixed checklist with a requirement that premises must meet standards set out in regulations made by Welsh Ministers. It still makes it clear that those regulations are intended to cover core safety matters, such as structural stability, layout, maintenance, hygiene and security, and it includes a duty to consult before those regulations are made.

Amendment 85: the purpose of this amendment would make section 7(2), relating to the general standards for fitness of visitor accommodation, subject to the Senedd approval procedure.

In relation to Welsh Government amendments, I will be supporting 3, 4, 5 and 38, but, speaking to amendment 5A, I will be abstaining on amendment 5A, tabled by Rhys ab Owen, as there are concerns about the delay to the application process if there are restricted numbers of professionals, such as fire risk assessors. Thank you, Chair.

Okay, thank you. I call on Rhys ab Owen to speak.

Thank you. As you are aware, amendment 5, tabled by the Cabinet Secretary, has replaced the drafting of the fire prevention standard in section 9. I welcome the amendment. I accept the comments and the concerns raised by Sam Kurtz, but I don't believe that the amendment goes far enough, and I think it's worth having further discussion with regard to this. I agree with South Wales Fire and Rescue Service that there should be a requirement for visitor accommodation providers to ensure that suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment is completed by a competent person, rather than the providers themselves conducting it. There is a genuine risk that some visitor accommodation providers will see this as a simple tick-box exercise and not take the task seriously. Similar issues to this were discussed leading up to the enactment of the Building Safety Act 2022. Section 156(4) of that Act inserts a new article 9A into the fire safety Order, imposing further duties on the responsible person regarding the competence of any persons appointed to assist them with their fire safety assessment duties under the fire safety Order. Amendment 5A replicates that provision for this Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Any other Member wish to speak? No. Cabinet Secretary, please.

Thank you, Chair. Well, as you've heard from Sam Kurtz, amendment 75 would replace the general fitness standard with a power to prescribe a more limited standard in regulation, subject to Senedd approval, via amendment 85 and would remove the amenity component of the standard entirely. However, the general fitness standard, alongside the specific standards, is part of the core foundation on which licensing is built. The Government cannot support any retreat from that position, as set out in the Bill, that the premises must be reasonably suitable for a visitor to stay in. Nor do I believe that moving the standard to be specified into regulations helps provide any additional reassurance to providers. I'm very used to Senedd committees urging the Government to move things out of regulations and onto the face of the Bill, and it's unusual to find an opposition amendment asking the Government to take things out of the Bill and to put them instead into regulations. In this case, I think it is better to list the matters on the face of the Bill and then to provide supporting guidance, as the Bill is currently drafted.

Chair, I want to continue to emphasise that the intention for the scheme is for it to be as light-touch as possible for providers, but it is not just a tick-box exercise, as has been rehearsed this morning. It has a purpose to serve, and that is to support and promote a sustainable tourism industry in Wales. Visitor confidence is a key component of a successful sector. Visitors want to be reassured not only that the relevant specific standards are met but that the accommodation also meets the general standards, including the facilities and the amenities. In that sense, Chair, as I said, not only does the amendment reduce the requirements in relation to general fitness, it would also prevent the licensing authority from taking any action at all in circumstances where that failure relates to amenity matters. This would undermine the value in being licensed, the trust of visitors in what licensed accommodation means for them, and consequently undermine the efficacy of the whole scheme. The Bill already provides a power to amend the fitness requirements, so, in practical terms, a further power isn't required in this area.

I turn now to the Government amendments 3, 4, 5 and 38, and amendment 5A, in the name of Rhys ab Owen. Amendments 3 and 38 are minor clarifications to sections 7 and 44 respectively. Amendment 3 replaces the word 'or' with 'and' to clarify that all three of the requirements in subparagraph(7)(1)(a)(ii)—that all three of those requirements—relating to the design, layout and construction of the premises must be met. Amendment 38 clarifies that there may be some circumstances in which it would be appropriate or necessary for the visitor accommodation provider to rectify issues with their accommodation on the same day.

Sam to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Chair. I move to the vote.

Okay, thank you. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to the vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against. Four, two. The amendment falls.

I move amendment 3 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? There's no objection. So, amendment 3 is carried.

I move amendment 4 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 4 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 4 is carried.

I move amendment 5 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. This is interesting, this is different: before disposing of amendment 5, we will first dispose of the amendment to it.

I move amendment 5A in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 5A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Those in favour of 5A. Those against. Abstention. The amendment falls.

I therefore move amendment 5 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. Is any Member objecting? Amendment 5 is carried.

That concludes the amendments in that section.

We therefore move to group 4, minor and technical amendments. The fourth group of amendments relate, as I said, to minor and technical amendments. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 52.

I move amendment 52 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Cabinet Secretary.

Chair, thank you very much. I apologise for the lengthy list of technical amendments. I will try to be as brief as I can while still providing a proper explanation to the committee about the purpose and effect of these amendments.

The largest group in this group comprises amendments 52 to 60, which amend Schedule 2 to the Bill to support the alignment between the Bill and the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Act, as I explained in my opening remarks this morning.

Amendment 52 clarifies a cross-reference. Amendments 53 and 54 support consistency of terminology throughout the Act. Amendment 55 makes provision for a person who has ceased to be a visitor accommodation provider to correct the register accordingly, and thus prevent penalties accruing under section 10 of the Act.

Amendments 56 to 59 make it clear that the 31-day deadline for submitting an application for removal from the register does not include any period in which the person is either awaiting determination of a licence application or the conclusion of a relevant appeal under this Bill, and that fines do not accrue during this period. They also provide that the requirement to deregister ceases to apply if a person obtains a new licence during that 31-day period.

Amendment 60 secures that where somebody has paid a penalty or been convicted of an offence under the Bill, they are not also liable to a penalty in relation to registration under the visitor levy Bill for the same issue, ensuring that a person cannot be penalised twice.

Turning to the remainder of this group, amendment 7 clarifies that an accommodation provider only needs to complete any training requirements that are applicable to them. Amendments 10 and 11 support consistency of language throughout the Bill. Amendments 12 and 26 amend only the Welsh language version of the Bill, to ensure equivalence between both versions.

Amendments 18, 25 and 35 regularise cross-references to the sections under which a licence can be issued. Amendment 28 aims to clarify the interaction between section 24, in relation to remedial notices, and section 23, in relation to licence revocations, confirming that decisions to revoke licences are made under section 23.

Amendment 32 is a technical change to ensure that cross-reference between sections 31 and 30 works as intended. Amendments 45 and 46 make it clear that the procedures for regulations under 57 apply equally to duties to make regulations as they do to powers.

And lastly, amendment 49 ensures that the word 'register' is intended to refer to the register of licences under section 36 of this Bill, rather than the register of accommodation providers under the visitor accommodation (register and levy) Bill.

Chair, all of these amendments aim to support the clarity and effective operation of the Bill. None of them change the underlying policy, and I'd ask Members to support them.

Does any Member wish to speak? No. Cabinet Secretary, do you want to reply in any shape or form to the silence? [Laughter.] Okay, we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections, so amendment 52 is carried.

I move amendment 53 in the name of Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 53, no objections, so amendment 53 is carried.

I move amendment 54 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. So, amendment 54 is carried.

I move amendment 55 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 55 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. So, amendment 55 is carried.

I move amendment 56 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 56 is carried.

I move amendment 57 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 57 is carried. We're on a roll here. [Laughter.]

I move amendment 58 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 58 is carried.

I move amendment 59 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 59 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 59 is carried.

I move amendment 60 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 60 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 60 is carried.

We therefore now move to group 5, licence conditions. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 6.

I move amendment 6 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group in his name. Cabinet Secretary.

Chair, thank you. I'll begin if I could with amendments 6, 36 and 37, all of which relate to the way in which conditions could be attached to licences for caravan sites and campsites, if they are brought into the scheme in future.

Chair, you'll remember that we discussed this matter during Stage 1 scrutiny. There are some forms of visitor accommodation that are not included within the licensing regime established in this Bill, which already have licensing regimes of their own, particularly caravan sites and campsites. These amendments seek to ensure that were caravan sites and campsites to be brought within a licensing regime in future that that would operate smoothly—that that transition would operate smoothly. That's what these three amendments are designed to do.

Section 40 of the Bill allows for additional conditions to be specified with the agreement of the local authority, on a case-by-case basis, as part of the licence for a campsite or caravan site. This would allow a future Government, should it choose to do so, to extend this licensing scheme to caravan sites and campsites on the same terms as the existing licensing schemes for those types of accommodation.

Amendment 37 clarifies that any such conditions may be additional to, or instead of, the general conditions that would apply to the licence. Amendment 6 is consequential on amendment 37. Amendment 36 clarifies that conditions under section 40 could also be applied to a licence at the point of its renewal.

I'll turn now to the remaining Government amendments in this group. Amendment 8 makes it clear that the licensing scheme in the Bill is intended to operate alongside the fire safety Order, as we discussed in group 3. That is how the Bill is intended to operate, but this amendment would disapply article 43 of the fire Safety Order and that puts the alignment between this Bill and the Order beyond any doubt.

Amendment 9 replaces part of section 16 of the Bill, which relates to training. It deals with how the training requirement of the licensing scheme operates. In particular, it specifies that regulations must be made to identify which visitor accommodation providers need to complete specified training. This is intended to ensure that the corresponding licence condition works as intended without changing the underlying policy intent. I remain committed to a training requirement that adds value, and to working further with the sector to that end. Amendment 9 also clarifies that training could be delivered either by the Welsh Ministers directly or by somebody authorised to do so on our behalf, and that fees may be charged both for the delivery of the training and to authorise training providers.

Under amendment 13, Chair, regulations that introduce new licence conditions must also provide for how those conditions will apply to existing licences, ensuring that if a future Government adds new conditions, they will need to consider and explain how those new conditions interact with existing licences.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and of course thank you to the Cabinet Secretary for those conversations over the last couple of weeks, months—time has become just one long thing through this process, but I'm grateful for those conversations.

I think we all know, and they're well rehearsed, the arguments about the importance of the tourism sector within our economy into our communities. I think it's important that we also, when we talk about that, reiterate the fact that it's important that the sector co-exists within those communities that it operates within and relies on. We've seen, for example, in parts of Wales—I'll use Gwynedd in particular—that overtourism can put a strain on local communities, from issues like littering, parking and a rise in anti-social behaviour, and we've seen that with North Wales Police reporting that there has been more demand for the force to deal with anti-social behaviour. And of course, Gwynedd Council, while welcoming the positive impact of tourism, have warned of the strain that overtourism is having on the local community. So, amendments 61, 62 and 63 seek to provide those reasonable protections for communities where visitor accommodation is present. I think that 'reasonable' is the important word here. Of course there are going to be differences between visitor accommodation in a city setting in comparison to a rural setting, so that word 'reasonable', I think, provides that flexibility that is needed.

I would just reiterate what the Cabinet Secretary has said as well. The purpose of the amendments isn't to put a responsibility on the providers of the visitor accommodation for the behaviour of those staying there. I think that's an important point that I know has been raised with me by the sector. So, I would reiterate that, as the Cabinet Secretary already has said. In saying that, I move those amendments.

Okay. Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak on this? Sam.

Thank you, Chair. Just speaking briefly to amendment 9, I'll be voting against amendment 9, tabled by the Welsh Government. In discussion with industry bodies, whilst there is recognition that training and guidance should be in place for new entrants to the sector and those providers who have previously breached regulations, such requirements should not be compulsory for those long-standing providers. Clarity is needed as to which visitor accommodation providers need to complete specific training or not, to ensure the corresponding licence condition works as intended. Additionally, the question remains over fees being levied for training.

Speaking to Luke Fletcher's amendments 61 and 63, I will be voting against these amendments, which appear to be inserting a requirement for the provider to take all reasonable steps to prevent conduct that causes nuisance or annoyance, for the provider to take all those steps in the locality. However, I do understand that nuisance behaviour is already covered in the Environmental Protection Act 1990. With amendment 62, I will be abstaining, as I am not convinced that this is needed and may already be legislated on via the Environmental Protection Act.

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak? No. Cabinet Secretary.

Chair, thank you. As I said in my opening remarks, I'm persuaded by the case that Luke Fletcher has made this morning, and indeed by the case that Jenny Rathbone made at Stage 1 of our debates, that it is reasonable for accommodation providers to ensure that visitors to their accommodation are advised of the way in which they can minimise nuisance to others who live permanently nearby.

I'm disappointed that Sam will vote against amendment 9, because I think it's trying to do exactly what he asked. I've listened carefully to what was said during earlier scrutiny, and indeed by the sector, about not having a blanket approach to training, in which people who already run successful businesses and know exactly what they're doing are expected to do the same as new entrants, and amendment 9 allows for that to happen. It means that training requirements are aligned with the need for training, and those people who are well experienced and are already very familiar with their obligations won't be expected to be trained to do the things they already know how to do.

But there still are new things, even in this Bill, where it would be sensible for someone to make sure that they have familiarity with those obligations, even if you are a long-standing and successful provider of visitor accommodation. Amendment 9 allows for that proportionate sense of training to be achieved. I hope that, as this becomes more familiar to the sector, people will understand that training is there to add to their ability to run businesses successfully and will be calibrated according to the experience that people already have of running successful businesses.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? Amendment 6 is agreed with no objection.

I move amendment 7 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Amendment 7 is carried.

Luke Fletcher, do you want to move amendment 61?

Move.

The question is that amendment 61 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Could I ask for those in favour of amendment 61 to show? Four. Those against. Two. Amendment 61 is therefore carried.

I move amendment 8 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 8 is carried.

Luke Fletcher, do you want to move amendment 62?

Amendment 62 is moved. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Those in favour of amendment 62, please raise your hands. I'm getting the hang of this now. That's four. Those against. None. Those abstentions. Two. The amendment is carried.

I move amendment 9 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we'll move to the vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Three. Those against. Two. Abstentions. One. Amendment 9 is carried.

As amendment 9 is carried, the next amendment falls.

I move amendment 10 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 10 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 10 is carried.

I move amendment 11 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 11 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 11 is carried.

I move amendment 12 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 12 is therefore carried.

I move amendment 13 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 13 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 13 is therefore carried.

We move to group 6. The sixth group of amendments relate to licence applications. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 14.

I move amendment 14 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group.

Thank you, Chair. I'll start with the amendments in this group that relate to the way a determination is made about fitness in relation to a licence application. I'll then move on to cover the amendments that deal with the way inspections work as part of any further assessment process. And then, lastly, I'll address the amendments about the timetable for licence decisions.

Amendments 14, 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 23 are interlinked and deal with the way in which a decision is made about general fitness on the basis of a licence application. The most significant of these is amendment 14, which replaces section 19 in its entirety. This has allowed us to make technical clarifications to the way section 19 works, but it also introduces an approval requirement in relation to amenity.

Amendment 16 provides that when determining a licence application, the Welsh Ministers are able to conclude that the general fitness standard is likely to be met on the basis both that the specific fitness standards are met and that the premises appears to offer adequate and suitable amenity to visitors. Amendment 23 then sets out that the approval requirements can be determined on the basis solely of information included in or omitted from the application, or with reference to any other relevant information.

The intention here is to be clear that licence applications can be determined on the papers, in all cases, unless the licensing authority decides a further assessment is needed. I said earlier, Chair, that our aim was for this to be as simple and straightforward a process as possible, and that's what these amendments seek to secure. My intention is that the approval requirement in relation to amenity can be assessed on the basis of simple questions, included in an application, and amendment 23 makes it clear that this can be done without needing any further assessment.

Amendments 15, 17, 19 and 20 are consequential amendments to section 20 to correct cross-references. Amendments 21, 22 and 24 set out the way inspections work as part of any further assessment process. Amendment 21 makes it clear that where the Welsh Ministers conclude an inspection is necessary as part of a further assessment process, they must notify the applicant that an inspection will be conducted by an authorised person. Amendments 22 and 24 are consequential to that change. Amendment 48 provides that, in the interpretation section of the Bill, references to 'approval requirements' are to the approval requirements as set out in section 19.

Chair, I said that officials continue to review some aspects of the Bill, and, in this context, that includes reviewing references to the validity of a licence application, reviewing the interaction between the determination process and provision of licensing, reviewing the interaction with the Provision of Services Regulations 2009, and checking for clarity and consistency throughout the Bill in this regard. It is therefore likely that I will bring forward further Government amendments to section 20 at Stage 3.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sam Kurtz.

Thank you very much, Chair. I welcome the Cabinet Secretary's points raised with regard to the 28-day time limit in relation to amendments 76, 77 and 78. From speaking to the sector, an open-ended timescale when working in the private sector is often a barrier to investment and moving forward with the business. The idea of a 28-day time limit for action to be taken would at least give some level of certainty to businesses as to in which timescales they are able to operate. However, I note the Cabinet Secretary's views on those simple cases being done far quicker than 28 days, and those more complex cases, potentially, taking more resource. However, I think it's fair, when businesses are seeking licences and applications, that they are afforded a timescale in which they know decisions will be made. So, I will be moving amendments 76, 77 and 78 to a vote.

Thank you very much. Would any other Member wish to speak? No. Cabinet Secretary.

Just to reply to that one point, if I could, Chair, the Bill will not operate on an open-ended time limit. The Bill operates according to the principles of the provision of services regulations. Those regulations require that a timescale has to be published in advance. So, there will be a published timescale as a result of this Bill. It doesn't require a hard deadline to be set on the face of the Bill in order to achieve that. I completely understand the points that the Member has made. It is important that there is a time limit and that people operating in the sector know that time limit. There will be a time limit. It's achieved under the requirements of the provision of services regulations.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 14 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 14 is carried.

I move amendment 15 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 15 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections.

Sam, do you want to move amendment 76?

I move amendment 76, please, Sir—Chair.

Thank you. You can call me 'Sir'. I haven't been knighted yet. [Laughter.]

I'm glad you added 'yet'.

The key word is 'yet' in that sentence.

The question is that amendment 76 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to the vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Two. Those against. Four. The amendment is not carried.

I move amendment 16 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 16 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 16 is therefore carried.

I move amendment 17 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 17 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 17 is carried.

Sam Kurtz, amendment 77.

Yes, Chair, move.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to the vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Two. Those against. Four. The amendment isn't carried.

I move amendment 18 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 18 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 18 is therefore carried.

I move amendment 19 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 19 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 19 is carried.

I move amendment 20 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 20 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 20 is carried.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 78.

Move.

Amendment 78 is moved. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Those in favour of amendment 78. Those against. Four, two. Therefore, amendment 78 is not agreed.

I move amendment 21 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 21 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 21 is agreed.

I move amendment 22 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 22 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 22 is carried.

I move amendment 23 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 23 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 23 is carried.

I move amendment 24 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 24 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 24 is carried.

I move amendment 25 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 25 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. It's a bit like Russia, isn't it? [Laughter.]

I move amendment 26 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 26 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 26 is carried, therefore.

We now move on to group 7, licences and general. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 27.

I move amendment 27 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. I'll begin with Government amendments in this group, and then I'll respond to some of the opposition party amendments. I'll begin with amendment 27. Amendment 27 removes subsection 24(1) in relation to remedial notices. Now, remedial notices and revocation are inextricably linked in the Bill. Remedial notices are designed for circumstances where the licensing authority is aware of an issue at a premises or where that issue is not sufficient to warrant a revocation of a person's licence, but, nevertheless, that issue does need to be rectified.

Revocation via section 23 applies where the licensing authority would seek to remove a person's licence if, for example, they had breached one or more of the conditions of the licence in a way that is significant enough for revocation to be justifiable. The regulations made under section 24(2) will set out the circumstances in which the Welsh Ministers may not revoke a licence unless the visitor accommodation provider has been given the opportunity to remedy a breach but has not done so. Amendment 27 is technical in nature and is to make it clear that the regulations under section 24(2) will apply in respect of all licences.

Amendments 29 and 30 will give effect to the commitment I made in my response to this committee's recommendations in relation to licence periods. A one-year licence reflects the fact that visitor accommodation providers will need to update some documentation annually in any case. So, adding a renewal, which we've committed to making as light-touch as possible, provides the opportunity to make sure that information is up to date to meet the requirements of both this Bill, if passed, and registration under the visitor levy Act. However, that is not to say that once in a steady state, or as the scheme expands, there may not be circumstances where a different licence period is appropriate, and, as I committed to in response to Stage 1 committee recommendations, amendments 29 and 30 provide for that flexibility through the regulations.

On the other hand, amendment 71, in the name of Rhys ab Owen, extends the default period from one year to three years. I know that this is something that some in the sector have been calling for, on the basis of concerns about business continuity. However, to be clear once again, there is provision already in the Bill to ensure that compliant businesses will be able to continue to operate without a break in their licence and advertise into the future as they do now.

A three-year licence as a standard duration is a much bigger commitment for any visitor accommodation provider to enter into. Potentially, it will lead to higher licence costs and certainly it may be a barrier for those who may be considering entering the visitor accommodation market for the first time. And this is a dynamic market, as we rehearsed in Stage 1.

If I could turn now, Chair, to amendments 79, 80 and 84, tabled in the name of Samuel Kurtz, amendments 79 and 80 make amendments in respect of provisional licences under section 27, and amendment 84 replaces section 53 in respect of transfer of businesses. As I have said already this morning, Chair, there are a number of areas where the Government continues to work through amendments ahead of Stage 3. That consideration includes provisional licences and exemptions and transfers of business. Given the overlap between that work and amendments 79, 80 and 84, I'd be happy to offer a meeting with the Member to explore the prospects for common ground on those aspects of the Bill and to see whether a Stage 3 amendment might be agreeable. On that basis, I'd invite the Member to consider whether or not he would wish to press these amendments to the vote this morning.

I'll call on Rhys ap Owen to speak, please.

Thank you very much, Cadeirydd. The Cabinet Secretary has already set out what my amendment is and some of the reasons put forward for the amendment and why he doesn't agree with it. As a committee, you've heard clear evidence from industry that the default position, in their view, of a one-year licence does not reflect how the sector operates. UK Hospitality Cymru explained this very clearly to the committee, and I quote:

'There are consequences here for things like marketing and forward bookings. The industry is a much longer sort of life than annually, and people are booking quite often a year or more in advance for some of the premises, and the adverts that are being put into different areas have actually got quite a long lead-in time. And so it might be easier just as an organisational thing if this was three to five years rather than annually'.

They, of course, have suggested five years. The Cabinet Secretary previously responded that five years was too long and would be a block to somebody entering the sector. Consequently, I sought some sort of a compromise between the five and the one and suggested three years. The Cabinet Secretary has made clear his views and the Government's views already. But I believe three years would help considerably, especially in the longer term, with deliverability and administration of licence applications for as many as 30,000 businesses. So, I still would wish you, Chair, to move my amendment. Diolch.

Because you asked nicely, I'll do that, yes. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much.

Sam Kurtz.

Thank you very much. I'm grateful for the Cabinet Secretary's openness to work towards Stage 3 amendments with regard to my amendments 79, 80 and 84. I think there is scope to be able to work collaboratively in this regard and therefore I won't be moving these three amendments.

Okay. Thank you. Cabinet Secretary.

I'm grateful to Sam Kurtz for that indication. And just in response, finally, to Rhys, what my amendments in this group do is to provide the flexibility for longer licences in the future. In the immediate term, a one-year licence, given that many of the specific conditions will have to be renewed annually in any case—an electricity certificate, for example—I think is the most straightforward way of proceeding. But my amendments allow, in the longer term, as the Member said, for longer licences to be issued.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 27 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 27 is carried.

I move amendment—if I put my glasses on, I'll be able to see it—28, in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 28 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 28 is carried.

I move amendment 71 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 71 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll therefore move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 71. Two. Those against. Three. Was that against, or—? An abstention. So, that amendment doesn't carry.

I move amendment 29 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 29 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 29 is carried.

I move amendment 30 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 30 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 30 is carried.

As we've been going nearly an hour and a half, I propose to have a five-minute comfort break. Therefore, if we could reconvene promptly at 10:55, I'd be grateful, and then we can get on with the remainder of our business here today. Thank you.

Welcome back. We're now dealing with group 8. The eighth group of amendments relates to enforcement and offences. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 31.

I move amendment 31 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. I'll begin with amendments 31, 42 and 43, all of which respond to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's recommendations on powers in the Bill to create offences. Amendment 31 removes the power to specify offences from regulations in relation to expiry and renewal of licences. Amendments 42 and 43 limit the powers to prescribe offences in regulations that relate to special cases, such as where an accommodation provider ceases to exist or for transfers of going concerns. The amendments would limit those powers to creating summary only offences, punishable by a fine. This would ensure that any offences were consistent with the remainder of the Bill, and that no such offences could carry a custodial sentence.

Amendment 33 creates an additional circumstance where a warrant can be applied for to allow an inspection, where giving the accommodation provider notice would defeat the purpose of that inspection. I would expect this power to be used very rarely. It's subject to the same safeguards as any other warrant under the Bill. A justice of the peace would have to be convinced of the need for such a warrant. Now, imagine for a moment circumstances where someone insists their accommodation is not being used as self-contained and self-catering accommodation, but where the licensing authority has good reason to believe that this is in fact the case. The only way to ensure the integrity of the licensing scheme would be to inspect that accommodation and without giving the chance for it to be reconfigured as a result of that inspection being prior announced.

Amendment 34 amends the same section to clarify that an accommodation provider is entitled to ask an inspector to show both their warrant and their authorisation to conduct an inspection on behalf of the Welsh Ministers.

I will turn now, Chair, to amendment 72, in the name of Rhys ab Owen. This amendment reflects an intention that references to a visitor accommodation licence encompasses a provisional licence. However, as I said just before the break, officials are still reviewing the parts of the Bill that relate to provisional licences, and I am expecting to bring forward Government amendments at Stage 3 to clarify those references. I make the same offer, therefore, to the Member that I made to Sam Kurtz in the previous group.

I turn now finally to amendment 83 in the name of Sam Kurtz. I was clear in my view throughout Stage 1 that it is reasonable to expect online platforms to take responsibility for the information they make available to the public. That includes taking responsibility for making sure that that information meets the legal requirements for advertising visitor accommodation. That is still my view, Chair, and I'd ask Members to reject the suggestion that a visitor is not entitled to see that the accommodation they are booking is registered unless it is advertised by the accommodation provider themselves and not by someone else on their behalf.

However, I've listened carefully to what's been said by the sector in relation to this part of the Bill, and I've asked officials to review the offences, as they currently appear in the Bill, to consider whether anything could be done to clarify how they apply to accommodation providers and third parties who advertise their accommodation on their behalf. I'd be happy to add that to the agenda for any meeting, as has already been offered to Mr Kurtz, to discuss further whether anything can be done at Stage 3 to clarify liabilities in these cases. But, to be clear, that would have to be without removing responsibility from third party advertisers altogether.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Rhys ab Owen, please.

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I'm very grateful for the indication given by the Cabinet Secretary. I just want to set out my thinking behind this. As the committee will be aware, section 32 creates an offence for a person to provide, or offer to provide, regulated visitor accommodation, in the course of a trade or business, at any premises. Exceptions include where a person holds a visitor accommodation licence. However, the exceptions do not provide a provisional licence granted to a visitor accommodation provider, in accordance with regulations made by Welsh Ministers under section 27.

Of course, that section enables Welsh Ministers to make provision by regulation to enable a visitor accommodation provider to apply for a provisional visitor accommodation licence, authorising the visitor accommodation provider to offer to provide regulated visitor accommodation at the premises, but restricting the provision of such accommodation until the approval requirement is met. As it stands, should section 27 be enacted and provisional visitor accommodation licences be issued, and the holders of such licences offer to provide regulated visitor accommodation, I believe that they would be committing an offence under section 32. I'd be very happy to discuss with you in the following weeks more about this. The aim of this amendment is to avoid that possibility, which could arise if Welsh Ministers made regulation according to section 27. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Sam Kurtz.

Thank you very much, and I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for the offer of further discussion around my amendment 83. He will be aware too that I have raised on the floor of the Senedd Chamber right at the beginning of this legislative process my concerns around this. So, while I will be moving this amendment for a vote, I would welcome the opportunity to add this to the agenda for discussion with the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak? No. We'll therefore move to the vote. The question is that amendment 31—. Sorry, I call the Cabinet Secretary to respond to the debate.

I'm happy to move to a vote, Chair.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 31 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 31 is carried.

The question is that amendment 79 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection to amendment 79, therefore I call the vote. Those in favour, please show your hands. Three. Those against. Three. A tied vote. As the vote is tied, I therefore use my casting vote in the negative against this amendment, and the amendment falls.

The question is that amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. I therefore move to the vote. Could I see those in favour of amendment 80? Those against. There's a tied vote. Amendment 80 therefore falls.

I move amendment 32 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 32 be agreed. Does any Member object? No objection, therefore amendment 32 is agreed.

I move amendment 33 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 33 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections, 33 is carried.

I move amendment 34 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 34 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections, therefore amendment 34 is carried.

I move amendment 72 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 72 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We therefore move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 72 please show. Those against. We have a tied vote. I therefore cast my vote in the negative against this amendment, and therefore amendment 72 falls.

I move amendment 35 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 35 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 35 is carried.

We therefore move on to group 9, licence fees. The ninth group of amendments relates to licence fees. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 81. I call on Sam Kurtz to move then speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Sam Kurtz.

Thank you very much, Chair, and I'm grateful once again to the Cabinet Secretary for advanced discussion on both amendments 81 and 82. Amendment 81 relates to introducing a minimum 12-week timescale for consultation on changes to licence fees to take place, and amendment 82 means that when making the second and subsequent regulations for the charging of fees, they must consult any persons they consider appropriate. I believe this offers transparency and clarity to the sector and would urge Members to be supportive of these amendments.

Rhys ab Owen. Nothing?

Sorry, I have got something to say. Sorry. I got a little bit distracted there. Seventy-three, yes. The heart of amendment 73 is transparency with the Senedd and the tourist sector. As this committee has previously acknowledged, it recognised the duty on the Welsh Government to set up a fee that is for cost-recovery purposes only, and that this will only be determined at a later date, when further data is available about the number of visitor accommodation providers to which the licensing will apply, and the system set up to process their applications. What my amendment seeks to do is to require Welsh Minister to publish a statement in respect of each financial year in which the fees are charged, clarifying the total amount of revenue received and how that income has or will be spent. So, that is the amendment. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak? No. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. I've heard the case set out by Sam Kurtz for his two amendments and will ask Government supporters to support those two amendments.

Amendment 73 from Rhys ab Owen is another new bureaucratic measure. There are already requirements for the Welsh Government to publish annual accounts, and the amount of money received from fees will be discoverable in those accounts. Senedd Members will already have a way in which they can scrutinise the amount of money raised and the purposes for which it has been spent without requiring the separate system that amendment 73 would establish.

I will ask Members to support amendments 81 and 82 and to reject amendment 73.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sam Kurtz.

No, nothing further to add, Chair.

We move straight to the vote, then. The question is amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Eighty-one is carried.

The question is amendment 82 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Eighty-two is carried.

I move amendment 73 in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 73 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 73. Those against. It's 3:2. Is that an abstention? One abstention. The amendment isn't carried. A vote of three against, two for, one abstention.

I move amendment 37 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 37 be agreed. Does any Member object?

It's 36.

Sorry. I'm just testing to make sure you're all listening. [Laughter.]

I move amendment 36 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 36 be agreed. Does any Member object? No objection. Amendment 36 is carried.

I move amendment 37 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 37 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 37 is carried.

I move amendment 38 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 38 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 38 is carried.

We therefore now move on to group 10, visitor accommodation directory. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 39.

I move amendment 39 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Cabinet Secretary.

Chair, thank you. These three amendments deal with the information that can be included in the visitor accommodation directory established by the Bill. The directory combines information from the register of licences, created under section 36 of this Bill, and information from the register of visitor accommodation providers, created under the Visitor Accommodation (Register and Levy) Etc. (Wales) Act 2025. In the case of both these registers, Welsh Ministers and the Welsh Revenue Authority respectively have discretion to include information beyond that they are required to publish on the face of the legislation, subject to certain privacy safeguards. This is to allow for additional information to be included, which could be useful to visitors or to the sector.

Amendment 41 provides that information that could be published on these registers can be included in the directory. That supports the policy intention behind the directory that there will be a single source of public information about registered and licensed visitor accommodation.

Amendments 39 and 40 are consequential on amendment 41 to update references within the amended section 45. I ask Members to support all the amendments in this group.

Are there any Members who wish to speak? No. Okay, we'll move to the vote. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 39 is agreed.

I move amendment 40 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 40 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 40 is agreed.

I move amendment 41 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 41 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 83.

I move.

The question is that amendment 83 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 83 please show. Those against. There are two for, three against and one abstention. Therefore, amendment 83 falls.

I move amendment 42 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 42 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 42 is carried.

Sam Kurtz, amendment 84.

Don't move.

Amendment 84 is not moved. Any other Member wish to move it? No, okay. You get the choice. Amendment 84 is not moved.

I move amendment 43 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 43 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Amendment 43 is carried.

Group 11, review of operation and effect of Act. The eleventh group of amendments relates to the review of the operations and effect of the Act. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 44.

I move amendment 44 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary, and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Cabinet Secretary, please.

I beg your pardon, is this group 11?

This is group 11, yes.

Sorry, the information I had in front of me was that the lead amendment would be Rhys's amendment.

On my bit of paper, I've got the Cabinet Secretary speaks, and then I call Rhys.

Then of course I will follow your directions, Chair. The amendments in this group would create a statutory duty to undertake a post-implementation review of the Bill, as Stage 1 committees recommended this amendment. I've brought it forward as amendment 44. This amendment would require a review to be conducted no later than four years after Parts 3 to 5 of the Bill are fully in force, so that it could happen during the Senedd term, after the Bill is brought into force, as the committee recommended. As I understand it, amendment 44A in Rhys's name would require further that the Welsh Ministers consult when undertaking that review and that the review should be laid before the Senedd, and without hearing from the Member yet, on the basis of my understanding, I'm content to support that amendment.

Rhys, please.

Well, I'm surprised and grateful, Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.] First, I thank you for tabling amendment 44. I am a strong believer in post-legislative review. It's a very important part of the process of developing legislation that isn't given enough attention. I've already explained in the Siambr—in relation to the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, and as part of my amendments for the Prohibition of Greyhound Racing (Wales) Bill—why I think it's so important. As such, I won't go into great detail, especially after your indication. I don't want to change your mind now, Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.] The committee should note that the Finance Committee recently concluded that Bills introduced to the Senedd should contain provision for a post-legislative review, and I'm pleased that the Cabinet Secretary agrees. So, please, if you could move.

Any other Member want to speak? Sam.

I just wish to indicate that, while it's obvious that Rhys ab Owen's amendment 44A will garner a majority at this stage, I'm yet to be fully convinced on its relevance. Therefore, I will be abstaining at this stage.

Cabinet Secretary, would you like to reply to anything you've heard?

No, thank you, Chair.

Okay. Before disposing of amendment 44, we'll dispose of the amendment to it. I move amendment 44A in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 44A be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 44A please show hands. Four. Those against. Abstention. That amendment is carried—44A is carried.

The question is that amendment 44 as amended by amendment 44A be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to a vote. Those in favour of amendment 44 as amended by 44A be agreed. Four for. Against. Abstention. So, four and two—that amendment is carried.

I move amendment 45 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 45 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 45 is carried.

I move amendment 46 in the name the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections.

Samuel Kurtz, amendment 85.

Move.

Therefore, the question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll therefore move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 85 please show. Three. Those against. Three. Obviously, no abstentions. Therefore, it is a tied vote. I use my casting vote in the negative, against this amendment. Therefore, the amendment falls.

We now move on to group 12, regulation-making powers. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 74.

I move amendment 74 in the name of Rhys ab Owen, and call on Rhys ab Owen to speak to the lead amendment and the amendments in this group. Rhys, please.

Diolch yn fawr, Chair. I'm sure you and everyone else will be pleased to know that this is the last time I'll be speaking this morning. Thank you for the invitation, Chair, and for your efficient chairing this morning to go through all these amendments. I started this morning by highlighting the need to build a greater relationship between this place, between Welsh Government and the tourist sector, and this is how I'll end today. I've spoken to amendments that will help achieve that, and I think having greater Senedd scrutiny of more regulations will assist in doing that also.

Amendment 47A amends amendment 47, so that all regulations laid under section 38(1), fees in relation to visitor accommodation licences, are subject to a vote in the Senedd. As this committee has heard from several witnesses, there is considerable doubt that the assumed £75 fee is accurate. More so, I've referred earlier to the fact that as many as 20 per cent of accommodation providers are not confident of making a profit this year. Given that the regulations would affect the finances of as many as 30,000 businesses across Wales, I think it is right and beneficial for there to be an open discussion and vote on the fees they will face. This is true also with regard to amendment 74. Having talked to a number in the tourist sector, I'm aware that there is support for remedial notices. They are extremely important as they will provide visitor accommodation providers an opportunity to remedy a breach, rather than simply having their licence revoked, given how important section 24 will be to the survival and development of some tourism businesses. Given my belief that there needs to be closer co-operation, I think these amendments are very important. I would be pleased to see regulations proposed about the circumstances in which the Welsh Ministers may not revoke a licence without first issuing a remedial notice brought before the Senedd for scrutiny. Diolch yn fawr.

Chair, with regard to amendment 86, this amendment simply includes section 38 relating to fees for visitor accommodation licences being subjected to the Senedd's approval procedure. And with regard to amendment 47A, Rhys ab Owen's amendment, once again, I'm willing to discuss this, if it's not successful at this stage, ahead of Stage 3, but at this point, we'll be abstaining on 47A.

Thank you. Any other Member wish to speak? No. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. The only Government amendment in this group is amendment 47. That makes certain regulation-making powers at sections 27, 28 and 40 of the Bill, subject to the Senedd approval procedure. Those powers relate to provisional licences, fees and licensing of campsites and caravan sites, respectively. In the case of section 38, relating to fees, Senedd approval would be required to the first use of that power.

These amendments stem from recommendations made by this committee or the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, which I accepted. Amendment 47A, in the name of Rhys ab Owen, as he has set out, seeks to remove the limitation in respect of fees regulations, making them subject to Senedd approval each and every time. The same effect, albeit by a different route, is sought by Sam Kurtz's amendment 86. As I explained under group 9 earlier in this session, there are already various limitations and checks and balances around fees through existing mechanisms, including the publication of the Welsh Government's audited annual accounts.

So, I'm persuaded that there should be additional scrutiny of those regulations in the first instance. But I do not think that it is necessary, or, indeed, in my own view, a good use of valuable Senedd time for there to be an obligation to debate and vote on regulations that may only deal, for example, with inflationary rises. I would rather leave it to the Senedd's discretion to decide on a case-by-case basis, via the confirmation process, whether that degree of oversight is necessary for such a basic administrative change. It wouldn't be true of other charges that the Senedd raises, and I think it's a disproportionate use of the Senedd's time to require that degree of oversight each and every time a fee is changed.

In relation to amendment 74 from Rhys ab Owen, I think it's a marginal call, Chair, but it is consistent with the changes proposed in this group in relation to regulation-making powers in sections 27, 28 and 40, and I am content to accept that amendment on that basis.

Okay. Rhys? No response. Okay. We'll move to the vote, then, we will. The question is that amendment 74 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 74 is therefore agreed.

I move amendment 47 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. But before disposing of 47, we will dispose of the amendment to it.

I move amendment 47A in the name of Rhys ab Owen. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll have a vote on that, then—

I think there's a bit of confusion, Chair. It's 47A we're objecting to, which comes before 47.

But we dispose of 47A before we move to 47. Everyone clear?

Yes.

We'll move to the vote, then, and we're voting on 47A, just for clarity. Those in favour of 47A please show their hands. Those against. Abstentions? Two. So, that amendment does not find support and therefore falls.

The question is that amendment 47 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No objections. Therefore, amendment 47 is carried.

Amendment 86, Samuel Kurtz.

Move.

Amendment 86 is agreed—sorry, moved. The question is that amendment 86 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. We'll move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 86, show your hands. Those against. It is a tied vote. I therefore cast my vote in the negative, against the amendment. Therefore, amendment 86 is not carried.

I move amendment 48 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 48 is carried.

I move amendment 49 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 49 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, 49 is carried.

We now move on to the final group of amendments, coming into force. The lead amendment—[Interruption.] Thank you, Rhys, for your attendance today. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 50.

I move amendment 50 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary and call on the Cabinet Secretary to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Chair. The first amendment in this group, amendment 50, makes it clear that section 55, the section that introduces a duty to publish guidance in respect of licensing, is not part of the procedural provisions that should come into force on the day after Royal Assent. If it were to do so, there would be a duty for the Welsh Ministers to publish guidance on a regulatory scheme that itself does not yet exist.

The remainder of the amendments in this group relate to the commencement of the remaining provisions in the Bill. This committee recommended that if the provisions of the Bill have not been brought into force by the end of the next Senedd term, then they should not be able to be commenced. Amendment 51 responds to that recommendation. It will bring the remaining provisions of the Bill into force on the first Monday in March 2030 if they have not already been commenced by that date. I agree that it is not right that any Bill should be left on the statute book without the power to commence it, or that a future Government should be able to frustrate the will of this Senedd simply by waiting out a deadline to commence the Bill. This amendment will ensure that the next Senedd should either implement the Bill or pass further primary legislation to change or repeal it, as, of course, it will be fully entitled to do. The amendment also brings the key regulation-making powers for the licensing scheme into force a year before the remainder of the Bill, underlining the expectation that these regulations should be made in advance of the licensing scheme coming into force.

Finally, this amendment includes a power to delay the commencement date by no more than two years. This is intended to deal with any last-minute issues in rolling out the licensing scheme so that the Government at the time would not be obliged to bring in a system despite knowing of those problems. However, the deadline ensures that it cannot delay implementation of the Bill by more than two years.

I'll turn now to the amendments tabled by Sam Kurtz. Amendment 87 seeks to make commencement Orders for the Bill subject to the Senedd approval principle. This was one of the committee's Stage 1 recommendations, and I set out in my response in writing to the committee why I was not able to accept it. Because, while I understand the principle, I have serious concerns about the precedent that a future Senedd could simply refuse to commence primary legislation passed by this Senedd. The amendment will allow that future Senedd to prevent implementation of primary legislation passed by this Senedd through what is, in effect, a procedural device. As with amendment 51, I'm firmly of the view that if this Bill is passed but a future Senedd does not want to proceed with it, then they should do that through the full primary legislative scrutiny process. I therefore urge the committee to oppose that amendment.

Amendment 88 would prevent commencement Orders being made to bring any part of Part 3 of the Bill into force before a code of practice had been published. This is to return to where we began this morning, Chair, because, in my view, it confuses the purposes of the statutory guidance and the code of practice. They are in the Bill for separate purposes. The code of practice in section 3 is not necessary to the operation of Part 3 of the Bill. The code of practice is there, as I said earlier, to provide wider advice and guidance on operating visitor accommodation, wider than simply the regulatory requirements of this Bill.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Sam.

Thank you very much, Chair. This is the last opportunity for me to speak. Can I put on record my thanks to you, to the committee clerks and legal team, to the Cabinet Secretary for his willingness to work, and to Rhys ab Owen and Luke Fletcher for their support on amendments through this process? I'm looking forward to Stage 3 and collaborative working on shared goals within this.

In discussing amendment 87, while I appreciate the Cabinet Secretary's view on this, given that the committee came to a joint consensus on this, I will be moving amendment 87. However, on amendment 88, as a probing amendment, I'm grateful for the Cabinet Secretary's explanation as to the code of practice, and therefore I shan't be moving amendment 88.

Okay, thank you. Cabinet Secretary.

Well, just to thank all Members for the spirit in which this morning's proceedings have been conducted. I'm grateful to those Members who've indicated a willingness to discuss further some of the issues that have been discussed here this morning in advance of potential Stage 3 amendments. Thanks, Chair, of course, to you for the efficient and expeditious way in which this morning's proceedings have been conducted.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Amendment 50 is agreed.

I move amendment 51 in the name of the Cabinet Secretary. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, 51 is carried.

Sam Kurtz, amendment 87.

Move.

Move. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We'll therefore move to the vote. Those in favour of amendment 87, please show. Those against. We have a tied vote. Therefore, I use my casting vote in the negative, and the amendment therefore falls.

I think I heard that you said you weren't going to move amendment 88, but I will just check.

I shan't move it.

Amendment 88 is not moved. Therefore, does any other Member wish to move it? No. Just double-checking.

That concludes the proceedings for Stage 2.

I would like to thank the Cabinet Secretary, Rhys ab Owen, Members and the clerking team for all their work on this particular stage of this legislation. There will be a transcript of the meeting sent to you, Cabinet Secretary, for you to have a look at for accuracy. Any concerns, please raise them with the clerking team.

The next stage will be Stage 3, which begins tomorrow. The relevant dates for Stage 3 proceedings will be published in due course. Standing Orders make provision for the Cabinet Secretary to prepare a revised explanatory memorandum, taking account of amendments agreed today. The revised memorandum will be laid at least five working days before Stage 3 proceedings.

The next item on the agenda for today is a motion to move into private session. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I now propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42 that the committee resolves to exclude the public from our meeting scheduled on 11 February, as we will be considering the committee's report on the local growth fund. Could I have a motion, please? Thank you. Second that. Right, that's it. Therefore, our next meeting will be on 11 February. I thank Members for their attendance today, and once again thank the committee clerking team, the researchers and the legal advisers, and I wish you a good day. Cheers, all. Job done.