Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Thank you very much. And, Rebecca, for the record.

Rebecca Evans, Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning.

Thank you very much. I'll go from left to right, so I'll go to Duncan first of all.

Bore da. Duncan Hamer, director of economy, business and the regions.

Thank you so much. Ann.

Ann Watkin—bore da—head of strategy and planning for the mid and south-west region within business and regions.

Thank you very much. And Elin.

I'm Elin Burns, director for culture, heritage, sport and Welsh Language.

Thanks, Elin. And, Iddon, could you introduce yourself?

Of course. I'm Iddon Edwards and I work in the 'Cymraeg 2050' division and am responsible for economy, housing and communities.

A warm welcome to you all. So, we'll go straight to questions, if that's okay. Could I ask both Cabinet Secretaries that we have here if they have any general thoughts that they would like to give us on the Arfor programme—any successes, challenges that they would like to talk about in particular—and if they were to design that programme now, if there is anything they would do differently?

Shall I start?

Yes, please.

Just last week, we had the opportunity to meet the leaders of the local authorities within the Arfor area, just to hear, really, from them on their reflections of the scheme, because, of course, it started its life as a proposal from local authorities themselves. And I was really taken by one description, which was 'a roaring success'. And I think the positivity in that meeting and the keenness to explore what more can be learned through the experiences of the Arfor projects has been really, really uplifting, in the sense of having that opportunity to look at the linkages between local economic development and support for the Welsh language, and really shining a light on that, I think, has been really, really helpful.

And I think there have been some things that we can really point to that have been successful. I think collaboration has been one of the really important strengths of Arfor—more than 200 partners across the public, private and third sectors all working together with this aim of strengthening that link between the local economy and the Welsh language.

And then some of the work that's been done in relation to supporting young people to find a career and have that aspiration for a life within their local area, I think, has also been one of the things that, I think, collectively, people have seen as one of the big successes of Arfor. That said, of course, we await the findings of the Wavehill report and the pause and review work, but I think those are certainly early reflections that we would have on the successes, certainly.

Thank you. Before we go to the other Cabinet Secretary, I'll go to Heledd.

Yes, I just wanted to ask why the meeting only took place so recently, given that Arfor came to an end—Arfor 2—a year ago. So, it's just to understand why that delay, because, obviously, one of the things you've emphasised previously has been the need to mainstream. So, I'm just quite surprised that you were only having that dialogue a week ago.

We wanted to have that conversation immediately ahead of committee today so that we could get the latest and also hear a bit more about the kind of pause and reflect work, and to understand the aspirations for the future as well. We did want to come to committee with the most fresh opinions from our colleagues in local government. Also, I think that the governance has been something that has been really positive in terms of the Arfor scheme as well. So, that programme board, supported by an officials group, has been really important in managing the day-to-day delivery. And, again, the feedback I've had is that that project board has been very useful. And, as I understand it, the review work that has taken place thus far said that the project board was one of the strengths of the Arfor scheme as well.

So, just for clarity, it wasn't the first time you'd met all local authority leaders to discuss Arfor; it was just prep for this specific meeting, or was it your first time discussing Arfor with them?

I can’t remember if we have had a previous Arfor meeting since I’ve been in post. I’ll check, but we did want to have a meeting before today. Obviously, those programme board meetings are regular, and the discussions between officials are regular as well.

The board meets on a regular basis and officials from the Welsh Government attend those board meetings. In addition to that, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, there are regular meetings of an officials group, and both officials from the economy department and the Welsh language department attend those meetings on a regular basis.

Thank you, Ann. Duncan, did you want to come in?

Yes, briefly. I was just going to add that it is also part of the current programme for government, so we routinely update the Cabinet Secretary on progress, both in terms of specifics on Arfor and how we’re now looking to mainstream that activity into my broader portfolio of economic developments and actions. So, it is a more regular update than the meeting that the Cab Sec mentioned—last week, I think it was.

I do meet so regularly with local government leaders in various different guises that I would have to double-check.

Thank you.

Okay. That's fine. Gareth, did you want to come in?

Yes, I think we’re seeking a bit of clarity here. Obviously, you say that you attend meetings, whether that be virtually or in person, and that your exposure to those meetings has been fairly limited. We’re just, obviously, trying to gauge as a committee the Welsh Government's direct—. Or, can you give a precise analysis of the Welsh Government's role within this and say what actually is the Welsh Government's role within these meetings? Are they just being attended, or is the Welsh Government actually a key stakeholder within this and offering some good and tangible guidance and support wherever that’s needed?

I'll ask officials to reflect on the programme board specifically, but I do think that it's really important to reflect that this is very much a local government-led initiative, and so those projects themselves were developed by local government. The proposals around which of the pilots to start developing are, quite rightly, I think, local government led. So, they came to Welsh Government with the proposal, which, of course, formed part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.

And then, in terms of delivery as well, that's very local—so, partly through local government itself, but then I know that they've worked with partners, like Menter Môn, for example, and others, for delivery on the ground. So, in that sense, you would expect the Welsh Government to be allowing local government and their partners to be getting on with the actual day-to-day delivery, whilst also playing our part on the programme board, and so on.

Okay.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, was there anything—

Just one thing to say.

One of the things about having been around for so very long is that I can remember the genesis of the original Arfor programme, because I was in the room in a series of discussions between Leighton Andrews and Rhodri Glyn Thomas. Those were the two people who came together and the discussion they were having was on how we could do things to turn back the tide on an idea that, a decade or more ago, was still prevalent in the heartlands of the Welsh language, that the language held you back economically, that the language was a barrier to economic progress, that English was the language of commerce and the world, and Welsh wasn't something that helped you. The discussion was: how can we persuade people that, actually, the ability to speak Welsh is an economic asset to you, if you do it in the right way? That is what Arfor was originally intended to do. And I think, more than a decade later, that debate is different today than it was back then, and the discussions you have if you're out there talking to people who are part of Arfor is, 'How can we do more?', 'What are the most effective instruments?', 'What are the projects that have worked the best?' But the conversation is no longer so much about trying to make a difference to the mindset, trying to persuade people that Welsh can be an economic asset to you. I think that argument is sort of won, really, or at least it's won to a greater extent than it was then, and now what the debate is about is how we do that in the most effective way.

Thank you for that. I'm sure there'll be several different layers of this that we'll go into later. I'll go to Alun next.

Thank you very much. And I remember conversations with Rhodri Glyn about exactly these matters. But I like the concept behind Arfor, in the way that you've just described it. And I do believe that it is important, in terms of the psychology, if you will, of Welsh-speaking Welsh people. And I hope that Arfor has succeeded in doing what it set out to do. I know that society has changed over the past 10 years, regardless. But what were the objectives of Arfor when the idea was set out in 2001, I think it was? What were the objectives of Arfor 1?

Well, Chair, the objectives of Arfor 1—. We only had £2 million behind that programme; it was a small programme, and it was one that we were trying to pilot things within. As I remember it, we were concentrating on young people at the time, in the strongholds of the Welsh language, to try and find more economic opportunities for young people, and to try and persuade young people. I remember being on the stage in Carmarthenshire at the time, with many young people still at school there, and I was trying to persuade them, 'The fact that you can speak Welsh is very helpful for you when you'll go out into the world to try and find jobs, and so on.' And people were just looking back at me, saying, 'Well, we haven't thought about the Welsh language like that before.'

I agree.

So, initially, the idea was to try and focus on young people, to persuade them, 'If you want to try and find a job in social care, for example, the fact that you can speak Welsh will mean you stand out, because there's more than one thing that you can provide to employers, and so on'. So, initially, back in Arfor 1, that's where the argument was, I think.

So, what were the lessons that you learnt when you were planning for Arfor 2, from your experience of running Arfor 1? I want Arfor to be a success; that's what I'm looking for. I see the figures that have been published, and that, of course, is reporting back on activities already undertaken. What I'm trying to do is to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what you foresaw when, I think, £11 million was allocated to Arfor 2. What were your objectives when you set out that funding?

Well, of course, Arfor 2 was part of that agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Labour party, and I remember talking about three things at that time. We were talking about the footprint. The initial Arfor was made up of the four local authorities in the west of the country, and there were a lot of debates about Pembrokeshire—what about north Pembrokeshire, and what about Powys and about Conwy and Denbighshire, and can we expand the footprint of Arfor 2? At the end of the day, the conclusion we came to was that it was too complicated to do it in that way, and we carried on with the four local authorities that were initially in Arfor 1.

I remember having a lot of discussions about trying to find a way to revamp Arfor, not to be some kind of stand-alone plan, as something that was separate from everything else, but rather to have Arfor as part of the broader responsibilities that the local authorities have, and that's why the committees that Ann referred to are important, because that tries to draw other people in to Arfor and to use the money and the energy that's within Arfor to help local authorities to do more on a more general basis in terms of the work that they do.

And then the third thing that I remember was the importance of continuing with the work that Arfor 1 did with young people. Not just in terms of employment, but in terms of housing and other factors that are important if we want to retain young people in the strongholds of the Welsh language, and to give them the opportunity to continue to live there or to draw people back in who want to come back to those places.

Okay, I appreciate that. And a year after Arfor 2 came to an end, the funding came to an end, what are the lessons do you believe that we have learned?

I'm going to go to Rebecca now, because I'm not responsible for this, I'm just—

May I ask you both separately, therefore, about the lessons in terms of language policy, and then wider lessons for economic development?

Well, on that linguistic element, I think that the most important lesson that we've learned is that, if we want the language to prosper as an everyday language in those Welsh strongholds, then economic opportunities are fundamental to that. If we want to get opportunities for people, especially young people, to remain in those Welsh heartlands, it's important not to just create opportunities to use the language socially or in the family setting, but also in the workforce as well. The importance of the workforce to the future of the Welsh language—that's one of the lessons that I've drawn from this.

Okay, may I just take you a little bit further on that? I remember having a poster on the wall in Pantycelyn when I was at college, 'Without work, without language', and I think we've been thinking about these issues not just for years, but for decades. So, I agree with your analysis. So, what are the policy lessons? If you wanted to give advice to your successor after the election, what should the policy change priorities be in terms of the language, based on the experience of Arfor?

There are two lessons for me: the importance of working locally and on a community basis. When you provide opportunities and a small amount of money, through the Perthyn project, for example, to local people, what you find is that they have a lot of economic ideas, things that they can suggest, things that they can do to create businesses, and so on, using the Welsh language as a first language, as an everyday language.

And then the second lesson is on the other side of the spectrum, and that's the importance of schemes like Arfor collaborating with other things that have a lot more money, like the north Wales growth deal, the mid Wales growth deal, and so on. If we are going to draw everything we can out of Arfor, it's important that Arfor has an influence on other policies that have a lot more money and possibilities attached to them. So, on one hand it's the importance of things being local and on a community basis, and then, on the other, there's that element of drawing Arfor together with those other schemes and initiatives.

Diolch. So, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of where we've been in terms of an economic tool or an economic programme, your colleague Cabinet Secretary is very bullish about its success, and some of the numbers are impressive, to be fair. So, how do you see it succeeding or not? And what lessons do you draw from Arfor, in terms of economic policy?

So, you'll be aware that we're awaiting the results of the pause and review period alongside that extra work from Wavehill, but we do have some early findings, which do suggest that, perhaps, there should be, in future, assuming the scheme would continue, that there would have to be a stronger identity, in the sense that there was some brand confusion, because there were different schemes underneath Arfor that had their own identities as well. So, perhaps some greater thought given to that.

And then, another of the early findings is that there should be greater strategic consistency across the counties, whilst also retaining that valued local flexibility as well. So, there's definitely a balance to be struck there. And then, another early finding is around some tighter eligibility for some of the schemes. Cymunedau Mentrus, for example, I think that there are suggestions there that that might require some tighter eligibility criteria, to make sure that we're maximising the value for money there and creating jobs and showing that additionality, rather than supporting what's been referred to as lifestyle-type projects—things that will give people a wage and allow them to support themselves.

I'm grateful to you for that, and I agree with your conclusions on much of that. One of the things that strikes me about Arfor—. I'm a great fan of Pen Llŷn. I think it's one of the most gorgeous parts of our country and I like to spend time there. I went around Pen Llŷn with Dr Simon Brooks, actually, who we'll discuss in the next session, and what struck me was the number of locally owned and operated businesses that operated through the medium of Welsh. And it was wonderful. It was fantastic to see. And when I was sitting there, outside Cwrw Llŷn, looking across at Coffi Llŷn and the rest of it, I was thinking, 'Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could apply this sort of approach to economic activity or management or whatever to other parts of Wales?' I went to Coaltown Coffee just before Christmas, just outside Ammanford, and I'm thinking that there's a great, fantastic opportunity to encourage local ownership in a way that your colleague the Cabinet Secretary mentioned in terms of ideas about enterprise and taking control of local economies and the rest of it. And I'm thinking—we had a session last week in the economy committee on local growth deals—that there must be some lessons from Arfor that we can transfer to other policy areas in terms of the economy and investing in local economies.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of that's already happening as well. So, one of the things that we want to do with the review from Arfor 2 is make sure that we're able to mainstream some of that activity, so that other parts of Wales can benefit from the same kinds of approaches. So, work's already going on through Business Wales, which I'll ask Duncan just to say a bit more about.

So, a couple of observations first, Chair, just to build on what the Cabinet Secretary said on the learnings from Arfor 2. One of the challenges is that there are both quantitative and qualitative impacts, and what you've described in the Llŷn there is quite—. There are elements of qualitative areas that we perhaps haven't been able to measure effectively. So, one of the lessons, I think, is that we would very much like to track on longitudinal surveys, say, the young people coming through Llwyddo'n Lleol, how they develop and where they go, do they start those businesses you're talking to, so that we can really start to understand.

In terms of the mainstreaming, one of the direct—. Even though we're in a learn and review phase, we are already starting to implement. So, of course, all of our mainstream business support services are already bilingual. One of the challenges is that the uptake of those bilingual services isn't as high as you'd expect it to be, based on the population of business owners we know. So, we know there's a cultural piece there that we need to understand and that we think this research can do, but we're also starting to build in—. So, one example is that we're working with the Welsh Language Commissioner in Gwynedd to implement a Welsh language pledge for small and medium-sized enterprises on the basis of—. It's just below the sort of gold standard that the commissioner's put in place, to allow people to go on a journey of using Welsh routinely, alongside decarbonisation and equality work. So, it's very much kind of building the learnings of Arfor across the whole package of support that we offer.

I think Heledd wants to come in on something.

I just wanted clarity. Cabinet Secretary, you mentioned some interim findings and obviously we don't have the final report from Wavehill. I just wanted to understand what you were referencing there and to really understand how all of this is progressing and shaping, because I'm not clear from what you were stating, sorry.

If I can pick up on that? Those interim findings are—. They were shared with us at the meeting between the Cabinet Secretary and the leaders, and they're the early indications coming out of the pause and review work. We're awaiting the final conclusions, and that's why we've caveated by saying they're early findings, because that work is still ongoing, as you'll appreciate, and we're waiting on the report.

By whom? By Wavehill, or—?

It's Wavehill and the local authorities working together, yes.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that clarity.

Thank you.

Alun, was there anything else you wanted—? No. Happy? Okay. We'll go on to Mick.

Just a few short questions about some of the economic impacts and some of the findings from the reports, so far, that we know. One of the suggestions, of course, is that the impact of grants has adversely impacted on other businesses within a broader region. Do you have any view on that or any evidence on that, or any concerns about whether there's been a distortion there?

In terms of displacement of activity from other areas—

Yes.

So, I would suggest that we wouldn't see that, partly because of the size of the grants available and the kinds of businesses that we're supporting. They don't really lend themselves to areas where we would be concerned about displacement. Actually, what we are seeing is additionality. So, a really good example is Decus Research Limited in Capel Hendre. They established a water testing lab, and they did that after the previous provider moved to England. So, essentially, they filled a local gap and were able to create opportunities for young scientific talent. I also had the real huge opportunity to open the Delineate Global Operations and Technology Centre in Llandysul, and that's the first tech firm of its kind in Ceredigion. There's really, really fantastic work going on there, and creating up to 50 jobs under a Wales-first recruitment policy, and they really are keen to grow their Welsh-speaking staff. So, rather than displacement, I do think that we're seeing additionality.

One of the most important things about Arfor is it's there to add value and it's there to augment what's already available through Business Wales, through those large interventions around the city and growth deals and so on, rather than be there to answer all of the economic questions of the area. But, I think, in terms of having that strong focus on additionality and creating jobs locally that support the Welsh language, I do think it's been successful.

And then, just to tie in a couple of themes from that, within the broader economic development programmes of Welsh Government and, I suppose, more broadly, where it really fits in with that, to what extent it perhaps marginalises the focus of Welsh language within economic development policy, as opposed to becoming an integral part of broader economic policy. Do you see that as a challenge? You know, the sort of view that, 'Well, we're funding this, we have these pilots, therefore we don't need to focus on it in the broader economic policy.' Whereas, it seems to me, that all the areas we have within the Welsh Government operation, whether it be from education to health to development to environment, et cetera, all should be integrating the issue of the Welsh language within them. But do you see this as having any sort of consequence? Or are there any particular lessons, from experience, that you would learn from that, things that you might do differently in the future?

I think 'Cymraeg 2050' really sits well with our economic policy. You're absolutely right that support for the Welsh language has to run through everything that we do. It can't just be one £11 million single economic programme; it has to sit at the heart of other interventions as well. So, when you look at the work around the free port in north Wales, for example, that has explicitly identified the opportunities to support the Welsh language, through interventions to grow and support the local economy in north Wales. Similarly, we've been having lots of discussions recently about the opportunities presented by Wylfa. Again, none of those conversations happen without a discussion about how we use that opportunity to support and grow the Welsh language in the area as well. So, I think that Arfor plays a really important role in augmenting and adding value to what already happens. But, absolutely, it shouldn't be seen as something that is separate to the core aims of supporting Welsh.

Can I just follow on, because you mentioned Wylfa? The issue of social mobility and movements of people and so on have a massive impact on language, and also on economic policy as well. How do you see the challenges, then, of some of the major investments that are going to be taking place that would be bringing in an enormous amount of movement of people from all over and so on, and the impact that that then has on economic policy and the current programmes and the current role in terms of consolidating the Welsh language within those areas? It seems to me that they're going to present enormous challenges. I was just wondering if you see any particular way or specific need to look ahead to how that might be challenged and dealt with.

So, alongside these huge opportunities—so, the AI growth zone being another of those, and, of course, all of the new investment that there'll be in offshore wind around the Welsh coast and so on—. All of that will create a large number of jobs, and we need to be ensuring that Welsh people are as best placed as possible to make the most of those opportunities. So, around Wylfa, for example, we've got a project board within Welsh Government. That brings the teams from right across Welsh Government together, because we know that housing is going to be critically important, healthcare and so on—all of those different teams. But at the heart of this as well is support for the Welsh language, and understanding, actually, when you have a large number of jobs created, there is the potential for a large number of people to be moving into an area, and actually how do we make sure that we support the Welsh language in that circumstance. Because I do know that's a concern for some people, and we have to just recognise that from the start and plan to support the Welsh language. There are ways that we can do that, I think, through procurement and through making sure that as much of the value stays in Wales as possible. Recently, we had a skills summit in north Wales. Again, that was looking at the opportunities around Wylfa, the AI growth zone and other recent announcements. Again, at the heart of that conversation was the need to ensure that we support and grow the Welsh language through those interventions as well. So, I don't think that any of this sits separately from those larger economic interventions, but Arfor, I think, plays a very specific role, and I think it's been successful in doing that.

I suppose the point is, isn't it, that economic investment, particularly on the scale that we saw with the impact of industrialisation in Wales, and the impacts there that were never really addressed—. In fact, the prohibition of the language, working underground and so on, had a very significant effect in changing the whole nature of the Welsh language within communities. But it has impact in terms of a massive impact on the demography of a particular area. Obviously, education is absolutely fundamental to it, but it also carries with it a major risk. I was just wondering whether you thought that there's a need for a very specific sort of Arfor strategy to try to, I suppose, adapt to those inevitable changes that will take place.

I think this will be a wider question, both for Arfor but also for Welsh Government, in terms of those major projects. But, for Arfor, in terms of the pause and reflect, I think that each of the Arfor schemes have sought to address slightly different things. Young people—. Actually, an opportunity for young people has been at the heart of it throughout. If there is a further Arfor scheme in future, then I think that that will be one of the questions that they'll want to grapple with, because, actually, the economic picture now is very different to that picture when Arfor was first imagined.

Okay. Thank you. I've concluded.

Thank you.

Thanks for that.

I have Heledd and Gareth who want to come in on this. So, Heledd and then Gareth.

I just wanted to ask—. In terms of that economic mission, there is no reference at all to the Welsh language in that. I realise that it was your predecessor, Cabinet Secretary, who was responsible for that document. Do you regret that? Do you think that it's a weakness that there is no reference at all to the Welsh language in that mission?

I think 'Cymraeg 2050' sits right alongside the economic mission, but, equally, I think some of the things that Arfor was trying to achieve are very much at the heart of the economic mission—so, opportunities for young people to work—

But I'm asking—. There's no reference at all to the Welsh language in that, which was at odds with previous strategies. Given that Arfor was only meant to be for three years, do you regret that there's no reference to the Welsh language in that? Do you think it's something that should be addressed in the future?

So, I would think and hope that any future economic strategy would absolutely have a strong reference to the important role that the economy can play in supporting the Welsh language, and, actually, it can draw on the lessons of Arfor to do that.

Did you want to come in on this as well?

Well, I want to go back to the point that Mick raised. So, do you want to go to Gareth first?

Okay. On this, is it okay if we go to Gareth?

Yes, of course.

And then we'll come back to that. Okay. Gareth, you wanted to—

Thank you. I just want to drill a bit more down in terms of what it means in practice in terms of support around the economic policies and business support. We talk about highly skilled jobs in the west of Wales, Wylfa being one of them, the very highly skilled, niche areas. So, in terms of delivery, and what that means in practice, what would be your ambitions in that sense from the Welsh Government in terms of what you would want, how that would transpire in terms of reality? Because, obviously, because it's niche, you're not going to automatically attract people from that local area in terms of those jobs, because they require certain skills in order to do them. So, in that sense, where does it lie? Is it in terms of education, is it guidance? What would that look like to a business or an employer in terms of expanding the Welsh language? Does it become a statutory requirement? Does it become something that they can come into on a collegiate level, or where does it lie in terms of how the Welsh Government views its ambition to see those things transpire into reality in terms of economic policy and how we can embed it within those sorts of systems in that sense?

So, I think that the work that's happening through Business Wales already is really important, and I'll perhaps ask Duncan to say a bit more about that.

I think that Wylfa's a really good way of describing what you're talking to. We know that the Wylfa project—3,000 people employed on site at its peak. So, it's a different context to the original Horizon project. We also know the final investment decision is around 2030, with energy production around 2035.

So, in terms of opportunity, the Cabinet Secretary and I were both at the launch at Coleg Llandrillo when we were surrounded by 16, 17-year-olds looking for an opportunity to stay on the island. And why that's important—. At a recent visit to Hinkley, everywhere I went I could hear Welsh voices, and indeed got introduced. They were introduced as apprentices from the old Horizon project, but they're now kind of 35, so it was a bit strange, but the point was they were all saying, ‘We are wanting to return. We’re from Anglesey. We want to return. When is this happening?’ type of thing. And I'd say the same of the college students. We need to be able to provide that runway of opportunity. So, actually it does work for them, because 2030, 2035, by the time they get through their education—. We have to show that really clear runway.

Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary, I think this morning or yesterday, has approved some further support that we're going to do specifically around supply chain with Wylfa, so we can build capacity and readiness for those opportunities, and indeed, linked to the experience of Arfor, how do we provide opportunity for those young people in those communities, heavily Welsh-speaking—I guess it would be 80 per cent plus Welsh language in Coleg Llandrillo. So, we are starting to understand those links, and that's where Arfor’s really helped us to understand that balance of pure economic developments, but also the kind of cultural elements you need to put alongside those.

Okay, thank you. You've been very patient. You wanted to come in on something that Alun had said.

I was just thinking about a point that Mick raised.

And just to say that the debate that Mick was pointing to is an international debate, not just a Welsh debate. If you look at other parts of the world where a lesser used language sits cheek by jowl with a dominant language, whether that's Estonian and Russian, whether it's Catalonian and Castilian, then these debates about in- and out-migration and the impact of major economic developments in bringing populations to them, these are debates you'll find well beyond Wales. In some ways I think we are well placed—. Because of the links that we have with some of those other nations and the work that our international division do there, we're well placed to draw on those wider discussions to help us address some of the issues when they occur in a Welsh context, as they certainly are going to occur in a major project like Wylfa.

I attended the Celtic forum meeting recently, and that was a really good opportunity as well for us actually to share in Wales what we're doing. Colleagues from across the Celtic nations were really, really keen to understand our approach to the Welsh language and to learn from us, and Arfor is a really good example that we were able to share with them.

Thank you for that. We'll go to Heledd.

Just to build on that, because it's clear that Arfor has come to an end. We have this period of reflection. That £11 million was a relatively low-figure investment compared to the growth deals and so on and the funding that they have. So, in a way, it achieved miracles when you look at the relatively small amount of investment made and the impact in terms of economic growth that it had.

One of the things that I have an interest in, in terms of the next Government, is what are your recommendations in terms of what we've learned from Arfor that has perhaps influenced how you are looking at the economic strategy for Wales more broadly. The Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language has spoken often about the importance of this. Clearly, we want to retain the Welsh language as a living language in those communities where it remains the majority language, but, clearly, we want businesses across Wales to be using the Welsh language. The fact that you perhaps have depended on Arfor to do that economic growth work and not have that reference to the Welsh language in the economic mission—. I just want to understand how we ensure that the Welsh language is central to everything that we do, that it isn't just through mainstreaming, meaning that there is no focus on the Welsh-speaking heartlands, but that we can also learn some of those lessons in other parts of Wales. So, I just want to understand where you see the position of the Welsh language in economic strategy more broadly going forward. Do you think that Arfor has influenced that work?

So, I think one of the things that we have learned from Arfor is the importance of targeted economic investment, and specifically through Arfor I have in mind Galeri in Caernarfon and also Yr Egin in Carmarthenshire. I think both of those have been really, really important in terms of providing a kind of hub where Welsh language enterprise can grow from. I think that perhaps we could certainly do with more of that across Wales, and have those opportunities that provide a magnet, really, for entrepreneurship and for local growth for businesses through the Welsh language. I think those are both really good examples that we could certainly see more of.

If we look specifically at the city deals, research suggests that there has been little consideration given to the Welsh language as they develop their strategies. So, I just want to understand whether you believe that there should be more consideration given to the Welsh language in those. Are there things, through Arfor, that you would want to see coming through more strongly? Because, clearly, there is much more money connected to the deals than there was in Arfor.

Yes, so I was concerned—. I know that the committee's had some evidence around the growth deals, and so I've talked to the team about this. I'll obviously wait to see what the committee says, but I think it's something I would want to raise directly with the city and growth deals. That said, lots of the individuals who are involved with Arfor are the same individuals who are involved with the city and growth deals, so they will be aware of the importance and the approach of Arfor and the fact that there is a read-across.

Some of the growth deals—. Certainly the north Wales growth deal does explicitly recognise bilingualism as an economic asset, and it reflects, of course, that the Welsh language is a really important part of the cultural and economic identity of the area. But if there's more that we can be doing to ensure that Welsh language considerations are given more of a spotlight through the growth deals, I'm more than happy to be raising those points.

Thank you. Because, clearly, the Welsh Language Commissioner has been quite robust on this point, so we would hope that that would influence work in this area.

In terms of ensuring then how we ensure that city deals don't undermine economic initiatives delivered through Arfor, it just looks to me as though sometimes there is a disconnect between these deals and Arfor, and that is what seems to have been reflected in the research work, namely that significant investment projects perhaps see the Welsh language as a marginal issue, rather than at the heart of that investment. Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh language, you mentioned earlier the shift that there has been. Do you believe that there is further work to be done so that people understand not that we're trying to keep these Welsh-speaking heartlands as heartlands, but that there is economic value to the Welsh language as well?

Yes, well, that was the initial intention of Arfor: to persuade people of the fact that the Welsh language is something that can create opportunities in terms of the economy. It is one of our strengths, not something that is in the way in terms of us making economic development. I'm sure that there is more work to do, but from what I've seen, the argument has moved forward. When I'm out and I'm talking with the Perthyn projects and so on, it's just natural now for people to think about the economic possibilities that come when you can provide services through the medium of Welsh and in English as well. When you are in the Welsh-speaking heartlands, the Welsh language is something that's a natural way of how you think about developing businesses and so on.

The other point I would make is that I think there's a difference between the young people now and the young people when I was growing up in Carmarthen. I'm sure my parents and my grandfather thought that Welsh was the family language, the language that you spoke with your neighbours and so on, but when you went out into the official world, you would then turn to English. That was the natural way of things at the time. For young people now, who've come through Welsh-medium education, the attitude is completely different. There is more to do, but I think that we are gaining and not losing progress in terms of that.

If I may, just looking at the recent investment summit, Cabinet Secretary, how did the Welsh language feature in that? How much of a feature was it that we have, in many parts of Wales, bilingual communities, because, Cabinet Secretary, for the Welsh language referenced, there are parallels with other parts of the world? Do you see it as a plus when we're selling Wales that we do have this bilingual workforce?

Absolutely. I think that it is part of our Welsh offer. When people came to Wales to find out what we could offer, they wanted to find out about Wales, more so than particularly just what we can offer on the economy side of things. Actually, what we can offer is a fantastic culture, fantastic heritage, and I think that our language is part of our identity, and it's part of the attraction to Wales. We had people come into Wales from almost 30 different countries across the globe. Almost all of those are going to be bilingual countries, so they operate in more than one language naturally. I think that it doesn't faze international businesses and investors when they are presented with a country that is working in two languages. I think it's an asset.

I wasn't asking if it fazed them, I was asking whether you picked up that they saw it as an advantage compared to England that, for instance, we are a bilingual nation.

I think it's certainly an asset, and I think it's something that excites people about Wales as well. It makes us different, and it's something that I think we need to—. And we do, I think, to be fair, through Visit Wales and so on—. We had our first Visit Wales Welsh language campaign last year, 'come and feel the hwyl'. I think that was probably our most successful campaign. It had international reach. People got it and people really enjoyed it and leaned into it. So, I think that we should use it as an asset, because it is an asset.

Thank you for that. Before we go to Gareth, Alun wants to come in.

Following on from that question, I think the Welsh Government does promote the Welsh language and Wales as a bilingual country, but I'm not sure that it's fully holistic sometimes or joined up. I was in the embassy in Washington last year talking to Welsh Government staff, and I wish you'd be less shy about the success of our international office network. I think it's one of the great successes of Welsh Government over the last decade or so, the work that's been done there. We really need to trumpet that, I think. They were certainly promoting Wales as a bilingual country and as a bilingual community, if you like. That is something that stands out, particularly in that market in North America. But also, then, it's making it a reality when we come home, if you like. That offer to tourism, that offer to investors, that offer to ourselves as a people is that of the holistic Wales brand. The Irish do it remarkably well, the Scots do it very well, and I think sometimes we do it very, very well but in silos. And I'm just wondering whether we've got lessons to learn there about bringing these things together and doing it more holistically.

We've certainly done some research work, actually, on a 'made in Wales' brand. The Irish version is tremendously successful, so there has been some work done on that and what the value could be, particularly for businesses. Because, actually, as Welsh people, we like to buy Welsh, and so sometimes we just need it to be easily identifiable on the shelves and so on. So, some work has been done, but nothing has been launched in that space yet.

Thank you for that. Did you want to come in?

Just one thing.

I do think sometimes we under-appreciate how special Wales looks to people from outside, because we're here all the time and we see it all the time, don't we? But sometimes that sense of identity, that Wales is not just another anonymous spot on the face of a globalised world—. If you come to Wales, if you bring your business to Wales, you're not just getting the economic things that come with it, but you're getting a sense of being somewhere different. If we're swapping embassy stories, I met Clwb Hiraeth in the embassy in Tokyo. Clwb Hiraeth is a club of Japanese people who spent part of their career working in Wales and they get together regularly just to remember the experience that they had here and how special Wales was. And making sure that we appreciate that enough to make it part of our economic offer is, I think, really important. The language is obviously very important, but it's more than language, it's geography, it's history, it's culture, it's all the things that we live every day because we're here, and people come from outside to see with different sort of eyes, and it really matters to them.

Thank you. Heledd wants to come in.

You're not going to get us disagreeing with that, but I guess it just begs the question, again, why the Welsh language doesn't feature in the mission for the economy currently, given everything that you've outlined there. And also with Arfor, we're still a year on from that scheme coming to an end, and we don't know how that's going to be progressed, or seeing that, actually, it worked, so we're going to increase that investment. I'm just really unclear, given everything we've looked at, where the Welsh language features in the economy strategy, how Arfor has helped shape that and what happens next from Arfor. Maybe it's a reflection more than anything, but, yes, I just can't see, if it's not in the mission for the economy, how that's substantiated within Government strategy.

But the economic mission doesn't sit separately from our other overarching strategies as Government, including 'Cymraeg 2050'. And we are already trying to embed the learning from Arfor, so Duncan's talked about some of the work that we're doing through Business Wales; we're also now providing more bilingual workshops. We've got the Welsh language for your business online support service module, and also links to Helo Blod for translation and branding support as well, so some of these things are already happening. I know that all of us, perhaps on a party political basis, will be paying close attention to what else we can learn from Arfor, because what comes next, I suppose, is up to parties and up to the next Government to decide. But I hope that what Arfor has been able to do—. And let's remember, it was only ever in the first instance intended to be around testing different approaches, piloting different approaches, and I think, in terms of doing that and being able to provide experiences that we can reflect on to determine something for the future, it's been really successful and quite instructive.

Thank you for that. Gareth to lead us in our final questions.

Obviously, we talk about economic prospects, and I've long been an advocate for that to be grown in Wales, but, obviously, what we can't achieve as much as we'd like is presence on an international stage. I always come at it from promoting things like tourism, through expanding the efficacy of Visit Wales, for example, without Government intervention. But how do we marry that also with British culture as well, because we talk about—? Obviously, Welsh culture is very important, but also we've got to remember we are part of the United Kingdom, so how does that tie in, in your view, with being a successful 'made in Britain' and Wales economy? Because we've got to face the facts that we don't make much anymore compared with what we used to. [Interruption.] We very much rely on a service economy. Let's be real. So, how do we do that within the realities of the economy that we are essentially living in?

Specifically on Arfor, if there are any reflections that you had on that.

There's lots to unpick there. Just very briefly, I would highlight the importance of our growing advanced manufacturing space. So, that was something that was really important in the international investment summit. It's one of the key sectors that we're working on jointly with the UK Government in relation to the industrial strategy. But to bring it back to Arfor, advanced manufacturing—lots of that would potentially be in the supply-chain space for nuclear, and, again, that brings us back to those trying to close that loop to Arfor and the Welsh language.

But then I also want to say how important our international offices are. It's already been recognised today. All but one of those are co-located with UK Government international offices. So, in that sense, it's really important that the UK Government is also selling Wales. One of your sister committees has been doing an inquiry into inward investment. In that, we looked at our international offices, and I was able to set out some more detail of the work that we're doing jointly with the UK Government to promote Wales.

We do great work promoting Wales and the Welsh language as part of that, but we've always said that we want to see the UK Government doing more to promote Wales as part of its British promotion abroad.

And did you have those conversations with the UK Government in terms of how that's delivered at ground level and ensuring that its efficacy is delivered on that basis?

Yes. So, the UK Government, I know, has been talking about brand Wales, and we're really keen that that doesn't duplicate what we're doing in Wales, because we think that our Cymru-Wales brand is already actually very strong. So, we've been doing lots of work over many years, and, actually, if you attend any of the international expos, for example, that we take businesses to right across the globe, our stand is spectacular. It really does look fantastic, and it draws people to it. Inevitably, then, those conversations then lead to business and to jobs being created in Wales. So, that brand is really, really strong. But we're keen to continue to work with the UK Government to ensure that they promote Wales fully abroad as well. Sorry for going off Arfor, but—

No, no, it's fine. Heledd, you had one final question in the last minute and a half.

I just wanted to understand how that work between the Welsh language division and the economy division works, in particular in terms of taking that learning from Arfor forward, and what you see as the next steps that you're working on now, but also that link between both those departments.

Operationally, we are linked, so, for example, on the business support side, the Welsh department fund our specific Welsh language answer-the-phone service, if you like, and a lot of our online support tools are delivered jointly. So, in effect, we are operating as one. It's kind of representative of the way that we're sat here together in that provision. So, we are really looking to always mainstream and work together in a collaborative way.

Going back to the economic mission, implicit in what we do is that 'Cymraeg 2050'—we're trying to build that in through everything we do and build on the experience of Arfor to mainstream it.

If it's helpful, just in terms of how that works, as the director with responsibility for the Welsh language, I am part of the economic strategy board. I'm part of the Wylfa programme board. Just coming as someone who's relatively new to the Welsh Government, that has been a really important structural way to ensure that 'Cymraeg 2050' isn't divorced from the wider economic agenda. Just to echo what the Cabinet Secretary was saying, I think one of the very first conversations that Duncan and I were in was about Wylfa and the way in which we looked right from the beginning at the impact on the Welsh language, potentially, and seeing it as an opportunity to strengthen Cymraeg in its heartlands, rather than as a risk to be managed. So, I think that that reflects the mainstreaming of 'Cymraeg 2050' into the wider work of economic colleagues, to put Cymraeg in at the—. And I think that that probably reflects the experience of Arfor—it's building on that approach.

Thank you for that. That's a very useful note for us to close this meeting on. Unfortunately, time has got the better of us. Perhaps there were a few extra questions we wanted to ask. Would it be okay for us to write to you with those? A transcript will also be sent to you for you to check that it's an accurate record. So, to one of our Cabinet Secretaries, we are saying, 'Thank you to you and we'll be in touch'; to the other Cabinet Secretary, we'll see you in 10 minutes for the next session. But, thank you very much to all of you for the evidence this morning. Thank you very much. And to Members, we will take a short break of nine minutes.