Plenary

The next item will be questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education. The first question is to be answered by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, and is to be asked by Mike Hedges.

Llywydd, I wish to declare a personal interest. I have a close family member who is currently a student at Swansea University.

Provision in the Swansea area is extensive and caters to a wide variety of aspirations, learning styles, and support needs. Swansea University is the primary HE provider, providing both undergraduate and postgraduate courses. Gower College Swansea is the primary FE provider, delivering a comprehensive selection of A-levels and vocational qualifications.

Thank you for that answer. As someone who has benefited from higher education and taught in further education, I am supportive of the two sectors. For those of us from council estates, education was the route to gaining higher paid employment. We can either have an economy based on tourism and inward investment or one based on highly skilled and highly educated people, especially in computing and life sciences. And if you look at successful economies, education is at the heart of their success. Gower College Swansea, which I visited recently for their apprenticeship awards, showed what further education is achieving in Swansea for individuals and our economy. I have concerns regarding the restructuring of Swansea University and the proposed loss of skills due to proposed redundancies.

Has the Minister discussed with Swansea college what further support is available for their very successful apprenticeship programme? And, with Swansea University, what can be done to avoid compulsory redundancies and the skills loss that entails?

Thank you, Mike, for that supplementary question. I was pleased to be able to announce additional capital funding of £25 million to be split equally between FE and HE, to support all our FE and HE institutions. And that, of course, will include Gower college and Swansea University.

Turning to Gower college, it is, of course, Colleges Week this week. I've just returned from a lovely visit to the College Merthyr Tydfil, where I met a selection of their learners, including apprentices. I know that Gower college provides a broad range of apprenticeship training opportunities and it's continuing to grow its work-based learning contract. They worked with over 1,200 employers and 2,233 apprentices in 2024-25, delivering 96 different apprenticeship programmes. So, you're absolutely right in identifying how successful that scheme is. In terms of enhancing that offer further, we will shortly be publishing the strategic direction for vocational education and training. And also, my call for submissions on the future of the tertiary system in Wales is open. Both of those will provide vehicles for us to look further at our successful apprenticeship programme.

Turning to your points on Swansea University, I understand, of course, that Swansea University are looking for reductions of 55 roles and that they hope to reduce the total numbers in scope through voluntary means. They have informed me that they will be providing a further voluntary exit scheme and that compulsory redundancies are a matter of last resort. The university continues to engage with the three campus trade unions and the students' union. I recognise, of course, that the ongoing uncertainty will cause anxiety for those affected, and I expect Swansea University to work closely with the trade unions and the students' union in the spirit of social partnership to ensure the right support and help is in place for those affected. And to that end, I met, on 11 February, with the Swansea University and College Union branch and then the vice-chancellor of Swansea University also.

Thank you.

I would like to declare an interest in this question, Llywydd, as my husband is a professor at Swansea University.

Ensuring not just recognition of what's happening in the university, but also Welsh Government support for the university is vital, of course, to my region and to Wales nationally, to the workforce, but also to the opportunities it provides for our young people especially. We know how transformative the additional skills and qualifications gained from higher education can be for young people, and also it's a factor in their employability. In Wales, the youth unemployment rate for 16 to 24-year-olds reached 16.3 per cent in the year ending September 2025, a sharp increase of 9.5 per cent compared to the previous year.

So, what measures is the Minister taking to equalise participation in higher education with those of the other UK nations, because we're behind, as you know, at the moment? What assessment have you made of the impact of further restrictions of international student visas, announced today by the UK Labour Government, on the financial health of Welsh universities such as Swansea? It could threaten the HE workforce and provision here in Wales even further.

Thank you, Sioned, for that question, and I echo your sentiments about the importance of Swansea University to the regional economy, both in terms of the workforce there and the opportunities that it provides. I agree with you completely about the widening participation agenda as well. In fact, I'll be visiting Swansea University before the end of this month to see, in action, one of Medr's Reaching Wider programmes, which seeks to do exactly that, to engage with young people in the surrounding area of Swansea University who might not have thought that university was for them, to see what opportunities are on offer, to ignite that fire within them and hopefully, then, for them to apply. That is an agenda that is absolutely crucially important for the future and forms one of the five key pillars of my call for evidence on the future of the tertiary system, which is open until the end of March.

You ask as well about that issue with the suspension of study visas. Here, in Welsh Government, we recognise that international students are vitally important to the financial and intellectual health of our universities, and are a huge net contributor to the UK and Welsh economy. It's imperative that international students continue to feel welcome for the positive social, cultural and economic contributions that they make here in Wales. They enrich our campuses, they're part of our communities, and they form lifelong friendships with our home students, creating diverse culture and inclusive environments. Universities are responsible for managing their own international student policies and recruitment, and ensuring that they have sustainable business models in place. That is supplemented by work that we do within Welsh Government as well, and through the Global Wales programme.

Improving participation across all pathways of tertiary education is my top priority. Expanding access to a full range of vocational, technical and academic pathways raises overall qualification levels across the population, improving skills and life outcomes, and I have seen excellent work under way in Pembrokeshire to deliver these aspirations.

Llywydd, can I also declare an interest, as my wife works for a local further education institution in Ceredigion?

Minister, as you said, this week marks Colleges Week, which is a fantastic opportunity to highlight the vital role colleges play in supporting learners, communities and employers across Wales. I'm particularly proud of Pembrokeshire College in my constituency, which is equipping learners with the skills and knowledge they need to progress into so many local sectors and, indeed, local industries. At the start of this year, I visited the college's land-based learning centre in Haverfordwest with my colleague Samuel Kurtz, and we learnt about the agriculture and animal care courses now on offer.

Minister, these opportunities are so valuable to learners and, in turn, the local economy, so can you tell us how the Welsh Government is supporting providers like Pembrokeshire College, so that they can continue to provide opportunities and, indeed, vocational courses like this in our local communities?

Thank you, Paul, for that supplementary question. I meet regularly with FE principals, including Dr Barry Walters of Pembrokeshire College. I was really pleased to hear that the college topped the UK medals table at the recent WorldSkills UK national finals, hosted in Wales, of course, for the very first time, and I'm sure you'd like to join me in extending our congratulations to all involved.

I've seen first-hand the innovative work taking place at Pembrokeshire, visiting the college's energy transition skills hub and the welding and fabrication centre of excellence. They are both central, of course, to developing the skills necessary to support floating offshore wind technology and capitalise on the opportunities in the Celtic sea region.

Of course, the college plays a key role in supporting local skills needs, including the ones that you identified there with the centre for land-based learning, which I understand is located at the Withybush showground, along with their animal care unit. What we're seeing there is an example of what we're seeing across the sector, which is a huge increase in participation in FE. I know that they've seen a 74 per cent increase in learner numbers on that course since 2022-23.

It is so important that we support our colleges to deliver on those areas where they're seeing that increase in participation, which is so key to the local and regional economy. That's why I was so pleased to be able to allocate a further £12.75 million in capital funding to FE, which will help to alleviate those participation pressures.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru's spokesperson first of all. Cefin Campbell.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, since 1999, Welsh Labour have presided over a decline in education standards. The most recent PISA results place Wales, as you well know, at the bottom of the UK rankings and represent the lowest performance since Wales began participating in PISA in 2006. Nonetheless, on Monday, the First Minister said that if Welsh Labour are re-elected this May, you are committed to raising school standards. Given your track record over 27 years, why should the people of Wales believe anything Welsh Labour say now, if you can't even get the basics right?

Thank you very much, Cefin, for that question. Obviously, I would want to remind you that the PISA results, which were disappointing, were in 2022. Young people have just sat a new round of PISA in the autumn very recently, and we will see the results of those later on this year. We've had really good engagement from schools on the PISA round this year. We've had a higher number of schools than we've ever had before, and much more proactive engagement with schools around PISA. If I could also remind the Member that PISA is about much more than just straight academic attainment. It's also about a whole range of factors that impact on young people and their lives. So, I'm very supportive of our continued participation in PISA.

I was clear when I came into post that raising attainment was a top priority for me, along with improving attendance, implementing the curriculum, and ALN reform. We have made progress on all of those. I was also clear that well-being would be the foundation on which all this work was built. We saw improvements in our A-level results, in our GCSE results, and we've also seen improvements in our personalised assessments. I would be the first one to say that there is more work to do. I do not shirk from the additional work that we have to do, but I think things are going in the right direction.

Thank you very much; time will tell. Cabinet Secretary, at our conference over the weekend, Plaid Cymru outlined our plan to improve education in Wales, including our commitment to increase incentives for initial teacher training courses in subjects where there are shortages, and to increase those incentives by around £5,000 in the first 100 days of a Plaid Cymru Government. We need to take urgent action, because under Welsh Labour, recruitment targets for secondary school teachers have been missed for the best part of a decade.

In January of last year, you issued a written statement confirming that you had begun discussions with the sector to develop a strategic education workforce plan for schools. However, with just three weeks remaining of this Senedd term, there seems to be no indication in the business statement that this plan will be published or subject to detailed scrutiny. This is despite the fact that the Welsh Government told a Senedd committee over five weeks ago that the plan would be published shortly. Some 415 days—

You do need to come to your question, Cefin.

I'm coming to the question. Some 415 days have since passed. So, is the Government any nearer to delivering a credible solution to the teacher recruitment crisis?

Thank you very much, Cefin. Just to confirm that the strategic education workforce plan for schools will be published on 18 March. This is to coincide with our teaching awards, but was also timed to coincide with the Children, Young People and Education Committee's debate on recruitment and retention. I understand that that debate has now been moved to a later slot, but it is still our intention to publish the plan on 18 March. We have worked very hard with the sector, with our trade union colleagues, because that's the way that we do things—we co-produce things. So, you won't have long to wait before you see the plan.

You referred in your opening of that question to ITE incentives. You'll be well aware that we already offer priority subject incentives in shortage subjects: biology, chemistry, design and technology, information technology, maths, modern foreign languages, physics and Welsh. We offer an additional £5,000 incentive for students who train through the medium of Welsh, and an additional £5,000 incentive for students from a recognised ethnic minority who train to teach. I am of course aware of the difference between the amount that we pay in Wales and England, and I've been questioned on that in committee.

The evidence on the effectiveness of incentives is actually mixed, as I told the committee, but, nevertheless, this is something that we want to explore through the work on the workforce plan. We're also undertaking an evaluation of our ITE policy, which needs to feed into the work. As I told the committee previously, there wasn't sufficient funding in the education main expenditure group to go any further on the incentives this year, but that is something that we are keeping under review. There is no silver bullet in recruitment and retention; the issues are really complex. There's considerable amount of evidence that what impacts most on things like recruitment and retention are things like well-being and workload, and, obviously, that will be covered in the workforce plan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. As this is my last question to you in the current Senedd, I genuinely would like to thank you for the co-operation that we've had since you've been in post. Now—

Some Members maybe have just joined us in the Chamber. I am trying to avoid long goodbyes in this Chamber. I will get bored of people thanking themselves and wishing themselves well as the next few weeks go on. So, I'll just say it again: if we can wish us all the very best and thank us all for everything we've done, once and for all—I'll do it on all your behalf. Carry on. I know it was meant with the best intent.

It was.

You can carry on with your question, Cefin. I did interrupt others before you.

Sorry, I didn't hear that. Thank you very much.

No, exactly. Carry on.

Whether it be on recruitment or raising standards, if Estyn were to inspect the Welsh Government's performance on education over the past 27 years, I don't think anyone would be surprised if it were put in special measures. The latest annual report from Estyn highlighted, and I quote,

'a system that has been held back by inconsistency, mixed priorities'.

It said that the ongoing

'systemic weaknesses in literacy...must be addressed with urgency'.

Contrastingly, Plaid Cymru will deliver a bold, practical plan, boosting literacy and numeracy, improving teaching quality, strengthening the Curriculum for Wales, and giving every primary school a dedicated library. So, is it not the truth, Cabinet Secretary, that, after all this time, the bell is finally ringing on Welsh Labour's time in Government, and pupils and parents can't wait a second longer for a positive change to happen?

Thank you, Cefin. You started so nicely there—[Laughter.] I hope that the Llywydd will forgive me for saying 'thank you' to Cefin for his kind words. [Interruption.] I know, but we were all raised that way, to be polite, weren't we? [Interruption.] I'm not suggesting that. [Laughter.] I also thank you for your constructive engagement as well.

You were there at the Estyn report launch and you heard me speak. I take what Estyn say to us very, very seriously. They highlighted strengths around things like well-being, our additional learning needs system, so strengths around inclusion, progress on curriculum implementation. I did obviously see what they said about inconsistencies and mixed priorities. That's why, as Minister, I have tried to be really clear with the sector about what the priorities are, because schools say to me, 'Tell us what you want to be the priorities, we can't do everything'. So, we've been clear—it's literacy, numeracy, inclusion and well-being, and I've fed that through to the sector very clearly. It's also in our guidance. I think they are very clear on that.

I won't rehearse all the work that we're doing on literacy and numeracy, because I know that you are familiar with that, but you'll have seen in the written statement that was issued this week that one of the things we were conscious of is that there is a phenomenal amount of work going on, but it's not all set out in one place. So, I have announced, as well, that the Government is establishing an attainment board, which will focus on all that work, and make sure that all that work is aligned and joined up.

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, we talk a lot about the ever-increasing workloads facing teachers and school staff, and how a lot of their time is being diverted away from their duties. This was really hammered home in a shocking recent survey carried out by NAHT Cymru looking at medical interventions in schools. Support staff and teachers are deeply concerned about the amount of medical interventions that are being required, inappropriately, to be carried out in the classroom.

Of the 339 people who took part in the survey, a staggering 92 per cent of them confirmed that they had to provide medical interventions on pupils. The most common interventions relate to mobility and personal care, such as toilet support at 83 per cent, followed by routine medical administrations, including insulin, at 80 per cent. More than half of the respondents said that staff do not receive sufficient training to deal with this sort of stuff, with 12 per cent saying they received no training whatsoever.

This situation is leading to high levels of stress, anxiety and exhaustion. Morale is low. Sickness absence is rising, and burnout is a growing concern. One of the most startling comments submitted in this survey was that, some days, staff are changing 25 nappies per day, leaving them feeling worthless and not enjoying their job at all. Cabinet Secretary, this situation, I'm sure you'll agree, is untenable. Whilst I appreciate time is running out for this Government to act, and this will be a serious issue for the next Government to tackle, how has this been allowed to happen in this education system?

Thank you very much, Natasha. You'll have heard me talk many times, not just in this Chamber, but in committee, about societal issues that are landing in schools. Schools are carrying the baby on lots and lots of issues that they didn't have to deal with before. That is a really serious issue. It's one I've taken recently to Cabinet. It's not just about medical interventions. It's about the fact that children are starting school with no language. We need to tackle things like that as well, otherwise they will not be able to learn to read.

In terms of the medical interventions, that has been something that I have been deeply concerned about, because I've spoken to teaching assistants who've told me the work that they are doing. Actually, changing nappies is the least of it. Some of them are doing tube feeding, changing catheters, and things like that. That is a very serious issue that we've been working on with our trade union colleagues. I do want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all our support staff in schools who do this work day in, day out, but we need to do more to support them.

We do recognise as a Government that this is a serious issue. That's why we have been working across education and health to address this issue. We have requested—and a letter has gone out from the chief nursing officer to all health boards—further information and clarity on this issue. A similar letter has gone to all local authorities in Wales, and we expect to issue a statement of policy in April. That will be ahead of developing fuller, integrated guidance on the interaction between health and education, which, because of the nature of it, will have to be subject to a consultation and therefore will have to come after the election. But I do recognise the seriousness of these issues and we are acting to tackle them.

Thanks for your response, Cabinet Secretary. What I just mentioned is one of the ever-growing list of problems plaguing our education system. And, to be clear, this is by no means a reflection of those, as you said, who are working tirelessly within our schools to give our children the best possible start in life. At the heart of the problem when it comes to education is the Labour Government, and all Labour Governments that have indeed resided over Wales over the past 27 years. Behind all of the failed policies, flawed decisions or inaction over the years when it comes to education, you will find either a Labour politician or, indeed, if you look at the past Senedd term, a Lib Dem politician. Cabinet Secretary, this is the last time you and I are going to be going head to head before dissolution, so I think it's a perfect opportunity to look back at the Government's record when it comes to education. Consider this your final exam: Cabinet Secretary, how would you rate your Government's performance when it comes to education over this Senedd term?

Well, I'm not going to agree to be put in an exam by you, Natasha. [Laughter.] I just want to be clear about that. I have set out in my answer to Cefin that there is more work that we need to do, but there are really strong signs of progress in terms of attainment. In areas like well-being, we have a really good story to tell. We are head and shoulders ahead of other UK nations on our approach to supporting the mental health and well-being of children in schools, and actually we're ahead of the game on things like inclusion as well. I'm not the kind of person who blows my own trumpet, so, if I was going to give you that assessment, I would say that there has been good progress, but there is more work to do.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for your response. I'll give you full marks for creativity in your response. In stark contrast to the nice, fluffy fairytale you just gave me, let's take a look at what's really going on here in Wales across schools and colleges. We have: Wales at rock bottom in international education rankings; a teacher recruitment and retention crisis that shows no sign of letting up; a failure to close the attainment gap between children from poorer households than their peers; violence in classrooms continuing to rise; 20 per cent of children leaving primary school functionally illiterate; a discredited method of teaching children to read being pushed into our schools—and I am thrilled to see, with the Welsh Conservatives pushing on that, there is indeed now more of an opportunity for the system of phonics to be coming into the education system; we have worryingly low maths standards; we have inconsistent teaching quality, particularly in secondary schools; an incredibly flawed curriculum being forced onto our children in schools; attendance levels still convincingly below pre-pandemic levels; and money being wasted on pointless projects such as an anti-racism virtual world for use in colleges—whatever that is. Put simply, Labour has left Wales with the worst educational outcomes in the UK. There is no iffing and butting about it. So, Cabinet Secretary, in light of what I've just outlined, are you proud of what you and your predecessors have done to our education system over the past 27 years?

You mentioned a range of issues there, Natasha. If I can just pick up on a few of those, recruitment and retention is not a problem that is unique to Wales. It is a worldwide challenge in terms of recruiting and retaining teachers. We are taking a myriad actions to tackle these challenges, particularly in the areas where we've got the most acute shortages, including in Welsh medium, where we have got a whole plethora of issues that we are taking forward.

We have made progress on attendance, and that is due as well to our very significant investment in things like family engagement officers, who are doing the hard yards, working with families in a really granular way to tackle the barriers to coming to school.

You've referred to the work on literacy. I'm hoping that you were in the committee this morning when you had the presentation on CAL:ON. I wanted to take this opportunity to thank the literacy expert panel for their work. It was very important for me, as someone who's not an educator herself, to listen to the evidence of experts on this. On early reading, we cannot be clearer—systematic synthetic phonics is an important aspect of reading instruction, alongside other skills to make sure that children can understand what they're reading and can read fluently. We've been clear as well that learners should not be encouraged to guess how to read words by using cues or pictures. And I'm surprised that you are claiming credit for that, because you went on the Sunday Politics Wales show on 6 November and said, 'In some respects, some children, they do need cueing, and I'm not going to completely negate cueing at all for some children who need it'. So, maybe the lesson here for you from this particular class is that you need to pay more attention as well. [Laughter.]

Across South Wales East, we are working with local authorities to improve outcomes through sustained capital investment, the Curriculum for Wales, additional learning needs reform and high-quality teaching. We are directing funding to strengthen literacy and numeracy, tackle the poverty attainment gap, and improve attendance.

Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Government should be ashamed of itself that Wales lies at the bottom of nearly every education league table out there. It is an appalling state of affairs, including PISA, as has already been said. There can be many things responsible for this—poor leadership, moving away from knowledge-based learning, bad attendance, not addressing ALN head on. But also, one of the other factors that we know about, of course, is violence and behaviour in our classrooms. It's been three years since I put forward a five-point plan in this Chamber to the Welsh Government, addressing behavioural issues and violence in schools. In fact, I was the first to highlight it.

I'm very grateful that you listened to me on the need for a summit—although it's a shame not to have been invited to it at the time—and that the guidance, of course, for schools was updated. It's disappointing that the Welsh Government did not heed the rest of my advice, though, because you have not got to grips with this. It's resulted in a violence and behaviour crisis in schools across Wales, with another incident only happening a few days ago. Forty per cent of young people have witnessed violence or disruptive or abusive behaviour in our classrooms. It is not good enough. You have not tackled this head on, and you're not doing what's necessary. It is adversely affecting educational outcomes in south-east Wales and across Wales. When is this Government going to roll up its sleeves and take the hard, necessary action that is needed to stop violence and behavioural issues in our classrooms? Diolch.

Thank you, Laura. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that you are not up to date with our work in this space, given that, when you were the sole Reform Member, you declined the opportunity to serve on the Children, Young People and Education Committee, so concerned were you about these issues. And if I can say, about our behaviour summit, I'm afraid to say that was absolutely nothing to do with you. That was something that was discussed with our trade union partners, and we organised it on the back of that. I set out five actions from that behaviour summit, and we are taking action on every one of them. There is so much action I could take up the next hour talking about what we are doing on behaviour.

But if I can just say to you on the issue of violence in schools, I want all our schools to be safe places for our learners—[Interruption.] Are you going to listen, because maybe if you listened, you would actually learn—[Interruption.] If you listened, you might actually learn something. If I can finish, and you can listen to what I am saying, we are taking a wide range of actions to tackle challenges with behaviour. The really important thing with behaviour is early intervention and that we don't let problems escalate. But on the issue of violence in schools, obviously, it was devastating to hear about the most recent incident in Milford Haven. My heart goes out to the teacher and the staff in the school who were affected, and we have offered our support to the school, and we stand ready with any additional support that they need, just as we provided in the situation with Ysgol Dyffryn Aman.

We have recently announced that Cardiff Council have created a guidance document on tackling weapons in schools. We have recently announced funding for Cardiff to lead on similar guidance for the rest of the schools in Wales. Now, when I read the guidance, I was very reassured by it, because I think information is power, and what we don't want is for school staff to suddenly be confronted with a situation without having any idea how to handle it. So, I think that guidance rolled out across the rest of Wales, taking account of individual circumstances, will help staff in schools, and learners, to feel more safe. And we are funding that guidance, that work for Cardiff to do.

But I've also recently announced £500,000 this year and a further £1 million next year to develop a new schools programme, working with the police. That won’t be like the old police schools programme, which was focused on substance misuse. This will be built around our community-focused schools approach. Headteachers have said to me they really valued that contact with the police. So, we are taking a wide range of actions. There is no silver bullet in behaviour. You have to do all of those things. We have been doing the hard yards for a long time, and I'm sorry to tell you it has been nothing to do with you.

Cabinet Secretary, earlier today I attended a Senedd event organised by Walk Wheel Cycle Trust Cymru, where we heard from teachers and pupils of the benefits in the classroom where children walk, cycle or scoot to school. They explained it has led to better concentration levels, and having a period of movement before lessons meant children were able to start their school day better able to learn, more ready to learn. Given lots of families, especially those with primary-aged children, live in walking distance of their local schools, such as Undy primary in Newport East, where the vast majority of children start their day by walking to school, will you work with charities such as Walk Wheel Cycle Trust Cymru to spread these benefits across south-east Wales?

Thank you very much, John. I know that you're very enthusiastic about physical activity, and I think the points you make about active travel are really important. We know that, in lots of cases, people do live very close to the school but don't choose sometimes to walk or to cycle. So, I will look at the organisation you’ve referred to, and, if I can say as well, you make a very important point about the impact of physical activity on children's ability to be able to self-regulate in school. I see that in our new school buildings as well, which are more spacious, and teachers tell me, you know, as they've got breakout areas so that people have got the space to move around, that that helps with self-regulation and it helps with behaviour.

I know how important schools are to small and rural communities. The school organisation code sets out the processes local authorities must follow when making proposals to alter, close or open a school. This includes small and rural schools.

My constituency includes a number of small schools, some of them in deeply rural areas, but some of them are in post-industrial communities, and, at present, no consideration is given in the school organisation code to small schools that don't come under the safeguards of the rural list—for example, Pontiets school—which means that they can't depend on the presumption against closure of a school as set out in the code, even though the impact on the community is very similar to the situation in rural areas. There was an example recently where the Welsh Language Commissioner decided to investigate the impact of the closure of a small school, which suggests that there was a lack or deficiency in that process. So, will the Government consider adapting the code to reflect the situation on the ground—the fact that some pupils are in schools that aren't rural but are small schools—and to strengthen, at the same time, the processes, as far as the code is in question, with regard to the impact on the Welsh language?

Thank you very much, Adam, for that question. I'm aware that Carmarthenshire County Council have taken the decision on Ysgol Llansteffan today. It is quite a complex situation, because the legislation governing small schools is in primary legislation. So, if there were to be any change to that, that would have to be undertaken in primary legislation. However, if the school is a small school and a rural school, the proposer should still comply with all aspects of the legislation and code that relate to closing a rural school, e.g. in maintaining the presumption against closure, identifying reasonable alternatives, taking into account the factors set out in the code et cetera. And you'll be aware that I'm unable to comment on the merits or otherwise of any local authority proposals that may later be referred to Ministers for determination.

Can I put on record my sadness at the closure announced today of Ysgol Llansteffan in my constituency? However, I want to focus on two schools in my constituency. Firstly, Stepaside, which is being earmarked for closure, even though it's a very modern site in Kilgetty. I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary is aware of that, and if there's any future use being determined for that site in Kilgetty. And, secondly, Manorbier school, a school I've raised a number of times on the floor of this Senedd, which suffered a fire in late 2024. Promises of rebuilding that school by two council leaders in Pembrokeshire have fallen flat and now it's being earmarked for closure. This poor school is being earmarked for closure off the back of a fire that was not its fault, putting staff, pupils and the wider family of that school in a really difficult position. I'm just wondering if, Cabinet Secretary, the local authority have spoken with you or your team around Manorbier school, because there are still so many questions unanswered with regard to the insurance money for that school, which should have been available to them following the fire. They're in a really difficult circumstance. Has the local authority discussed Manorbier school with you at all?

Thank you, Samuel, for that question. I have not personally had any discussions with the local authority about the school. My officials may have, but I haven't. School closure proposals are a matter for local authorities, and you'll be aware that, in certain circumstances, those decisions can come in to Welsh Ministers for determination, which is why it's not appropriate for me to comment on the particular issues. If you'd like to write to me about things like the insurance matters, I'd be very happy to follow that up with my officials.

Over the term of this Senedd, what we have seen in Powys is the Liberal Democrats closing a number of small primary schools across my constituency. It's quite ironic considering the previous Liberal Democrat Member for that constituency, who was based here, brought in the small schools code. What I'm concerned about is that that code doesn't actually provide protection for those small schools. So, will you, Cabinet Secretary, commit to reviewing that small schools code to make sure it does actually protect our small schools, because, as it currently stands, it doesn't protect anybody? It actually seems as an enabler to closing a lot of small schools across places in my constituency and across other parts of Powys.

Thank you, James. Well, the protections that Kirsty Williams brought in when she was Minister were around rural schools rather than small schools, and as I just said in response to Adam Price, the provision for small schools is set out in primary legislation, and any changes to that would involve new primary legislation. But I think everybody's heard what you've said. Obviously, any review on this would be a matter for any incoming Government.

I want to ensure that every learner, wherever they live and whatever their background, has the opportunity to gain the knowledge and skills to contribute to a strong, sustainable economy.

Thank you for that response.

Of course, it's Colleges Week and it's an opportunity for us to celebrate the work that our colleges do and think about what more we can do to support our learners in that setting. There's a specific issue affecting equity across Wales in terms of access to further education. Currently, apprentices receive no dedicated travel support because they're classified as employed, rather than as learners. So, as a result, they're limited to standard young persons' discounts on public transport, but, by contrast, sixth form pupils may qualify for free transport. Now, there's no equivalent guaranteed provision for college learners and this creates a clear inconsistency in how we support young people in education and training, particularly impacting apprentices, who are often also earning comparatively low wages, while often having to then spend that money on expensive equipment or clothing for their apprenticeship. This was one of the single biggest issues facing learners I spoke to when campaigning to get an increase in the educational maintenance allowance, and nothing has changed.

I understand that the Welsh Government hosted a learner travel workshop on post-16 education yesterday, so the issue, clearly, is on your radar. So, could you outline the key outcomes from that workshop and what specific actionable steps will now be taken to address these disparities in travel support for post-16 learners, including apprentices?

Thank you, Luke, for that question, and you shine a spotlight on an important issue there. We're continuing to take a cross-Government approach to reduce transport barriers for young people accessing education. This Senedd term, we have implemented an increase in the household income threshold for the educational maintenance allowance—and I really should put on record our thanks for your collaboration and your support for that work—providing financial support to an anticipated additional 3,500 students, which can assist eligible students with transport costs, and, of course, that's £40 a week, which is the highest in the UK. So, EMA can definitely help there. We've invested £22 million over the course of 2025-26 and 2026-27 to support the £1 bus fare pilot scheme for young people under 21 years old. So, again, for apprentices who fall into that age group, they will be able to take advantage of that, and so far, over 38,000 young people have signed up to MyTravelPass—including my daughter, she's one of those—making education, training and employment more accessible and affordable.

You asked about the learner travel workshops that have come out of the learner travel summit and that does provide opportunities for key stakeholders to further explore the opportunities to improve learner travel arrangements. I believe that that workshop is being held today, so if you write to the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales, he can certainly give you feedback. But I can report that ColegauCymru, individual colleges and the National Union of Students Cymru will be amongst the stakeholders joining that particular post-16 learner travel workshop. And the outcomes of those workshops will be for consideration by the next Government, to ensure that the voices and expertise of all partners inform the next steps in our learner travel strategy and are central to our approach.

I should say as well that my call for evidence on the future sustainability of the tertiary sector looks in particular at issues that would affect learners. It is something that I have talked to learners about whenever I am visiting FE colleges, and I did that in Merthyr today. Transport is invariably a thread of that, so we expect to have strong evidence coming out of that that can help to inform the next Government also.

I’m grateful to Estyn for highlighting this issue. We are already working on this as part of developing our strategic education workforce plan for schools. The plan will set out the actions we will be taking to address recruitment and retention challenges and to support a high-quality workforce.

Thank you for the response. I take it, therefore, that you accept that the current approach is not delivering in a way that maybe was promised and people would expect. I heard your previous answer about the workforce plan being launched on 18 March. Some people might ask, this Government has been trying for three decades, what's going to be different this time? But you did explain that you've been working with many in the sector, so we'll wait to see that. But my question basically is: are we going to be able to question and quiz you as the Minister responsible on that after it's published, because this is your final question session? So, will you please bring an oral statement to this Chamber to allow us to scrutinise yourself and that workforce plan in a way that I think is our responsibility and that should happen?

Thank you very much, Llyr, for that supplementary. As I said in previous answers, challenges with recruitment and retention are worldwide. They're not just in Wales. Actually, the recent data does show a slight improvement. Unofficial data shows that overall recruitment to secondary programmes rose from 36.5 per cent in 2023-24 to 45 per cent in 2024-25. The number of Welsh-medium entrants has also increased and is 22 per cent higher in 2023-24 than in 2019-20.

Obviously, the organisation of Plenary business isn't a matter for me, but the Trefnydd has heard what you've said. We had scheduled the publication of the plan to coincide with the committee debate on recruitment and retention, which has now been—. Well, there would have been scrutiny in the Chamber, obviously, in that debate, but I'm very happy to participate in any scrutiny opportunities that are made available on this.

I have strengthened ALN, neurodiversity and inclusive education training across education in Wales. Dysgu are already developing a national professional learning ALN programme for local authority staff, leaders, ALN co-ordinators, specialist staff and all teaching staff. This is as well as the ‘Calm Classrooms, Thriving Minds’ training programme on well-being and child development.

Thank you for that response. We've already seen the UK Government announcing billions of pounds of extra funding for special educational needs in England. Can you confirm today that consequential funding, which was announced yesterday, will come to Wales, and will you let us know how much additional funding will come in the current financial year and the coming financial years? It's a matter for the Government to decide how to use this funding, of course, but for the sake of transparency, publishing the figures would be useful.

In meeting the parents of children with additional learning needs in Arfon and across Wales, I hear time and time again that a lack of training on neurodiversity among school staff is leading to delays, misunderstanding and children reaching crisis point. As one parent told me recently, it should not feel like a battle to access support. So, how much of a priority is it for you to ensure national consistency in the provision, particularly in developing training on neurodiversity for schools?

Diolch, Siân, for that question. Just to say that, obviously, I welcome the UK Government's focus on inclusion. We are already some considerable way down the road on our inclusion journey. It's my understanding that Welsh Government will receive an additional £555 million in resource and capital funding over the next three years as a result of the announcements yesterday. That is mainly in respect of additional funding for special educational needs and disabilities in England and non-domestic rates for hospitality and pubs.

You raise very important points about training. I've always been really clear that inclusion and ALN are not something that sit over there. If we're going to have genuinely inclusive schools, then everyone in our schools needs to be upskilled in issues around ALN, neurodiversity et cetera. So, we've asked Dysgu to develop—they're developing and delivering and quality assuring—a national professional learning ALN programme, as I said, for all staff in our schools and for local authority staff, and they've already recruited an ALN lead to take this forward. We're also piloting Calm Classrooms, Thriving Minds, which is a whole workforce professional learning programme co-developed with practitioners to increase understanding of child development and mental health.

In initial teacher education, we've strengthened the accreditation criteria in relation to ALN, and Bangor University are currently piloting a primary post-graduate certificate in education with neurodiversity specialism. But, as part of the work that we're doing to prepare for the new accreditation of ITE, we are going to be looking to strengthen the commitment to upskilling our staff in ALN, neurodiversity, mental health, because everybody in our schools needs to be able to support young people so that they can be truly inclusive. So, training is an absolutely fundamental priority, not just for ALN, but for all the areas that we're taking forward in terms of literacy, numeracy et cetera.

And finally, question 8, Peter Fox.

I’m grateful to Estyn for highlighting that effective leadership is the most significant factor in improving quality of teaching. We will support local authorities through our new school improvement arrangements, and tackle headteacher recruitment challenges through the strategic education workforce plan for schools. Dysgu will develop and deliver leadership support.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As you recognise, strong leadership at every level of our education system is essential, from headteachers providing clear direction in their schools to local authorities offering effective support, and, of course, Welsh Government creating the conditions for that leadership to thrive. Yet Estyn has been clear that local government support on attendance has had limited impact, and, in Monmouthshire, we've seen absenteeism worsening in recent years, not improving. At the same time, schools across Wales are struggling to maintain even basic leadership capacity because of the lack of staff and an over-dependence on agency workers, weakening the ability headteachers need to lead effectively. As we all know, good leadership is fundamental to continuous school improvement.

Given these combined pressures, weak attendance, an inconsistent and overstretched workforce, and the mounting strain on school leaders, how is the Welsh Government working to strengthen leadership at every level so that our schools can genuinely meet Estyn's expectations?

And on a broader point, Cabinet Secretary, what concrete steps should your Government have put in place to ensure that we weren't in this position?

Thank you, Peter. I know you've got an interest in school leadership, as you've raised it before. I have a ministerial headteacher advisory group, and I've heard directly from them how effective leadership can make a difference to teaching and learning, and I would like to just take this opportunity to thank my headteacher advisory group for their time, for their commitment and for their willingness to be system leaders for the whole of Wales.

We have got challenges in recruiting and retaining senior leaders, and the plan that I'll be publishing will help tackle that. We're also going to be working more closely with local authorities to make sure they use workforce data to succession plan, and so that we've got a more granular understanding of the challenges. Through our new school improvement guidance, schools are expected to work together in partnership with local authorities to secure improvement. Our professional standards emphasise the importance of a culture of learner improvement through collaborative working, and Dysgu is leading on professional learning and support for school leaders, including delivering our new national professional qualification for headship, but also developing support for aspiring new and existing middle and senior leaders, with coaching and mentoring support.

You mentioned attendance, which has obviously been a concern for Estyn. Estyn was quite keen that local authorities are given targets on attendance. Targets can have unintended consequences when you're dealing with complex issues around children attending school, but we are working with local authorities to develop some smart targets so that we can see that the trajectory is improving all the time.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 3 is the topical questions. There is only one topical question today, and that will be asked by Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much. The spring statement provides an additional £555 million to Wales over the next three years. The Welsh Government's settlement over the next three years is almost £6 billion higher than it would have been under the spending plans set out by the previous UK Government.

Thank you for that response, and thank you also for the written statement yesterday. Of course, I hope that all of us here would welcome any additional funding for Wales, particularly considering the hugely challenging situation facing the Senedd's budgets as a result of the most recent spending review, which will lead to the lowest growth in day-to-day expenditure in real terms beyond the initial austerity years, as well, of course, as capital funding that will shrink in real terms. You have already outlined in yesterday's statement how the funds are going to be allocated from one year to another and where the money has primarily come from. Can you confirm what percentage of the additional funding has come as a result of additional spending in England on additional learning needs, and what percentage has come as a result of extending business rates relief to the hospitality and pubs sector? Also, will you outline any other areas the funding has emanated from?

I would also be grateful if you could outline how the spring statement relates to the announcement we heard recently on investment in Wales's rail network, as your statement yesterday referred to that too. At present, it is unclear to us, as well as to experts working in the field, how exactly the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales arrived at that figure of £14 billion, and what beyond the £445 million already announced in the spending review represents a firm funding commitment to Wales from Westminster during the current parliamentary period. So, can you confirm whether some of this consequential funding is linked to the announcement on railway funding, and, if not, when exactly do you expect to receive the additional funding that goes beyond what was announced in the spending review? Thank you.

Thank you very much to Heledd Fychan, Dirprwy Lywydd.

So, over the three years of the spring statement changes, there's £4 million in each year of general capital uplift. In the first year, there is £5 million, in the second year, £8 million, and, in the third year, £11 million in revenue that flows from decisions of the UK Government in relation to non-domestic rates support. In the first year, 2026-27, there is an additional £327 million in revenue. That is one-off money. It is a consequence of the UK Government's decision to fund the debts that had built up in English local government because of the statutory override put in place by the previous Conservative Government in relation to ALN spending. There is no money in the second year as a consequence of changes in England on additional learning needs expenditure, but, in the third year, there is an additional £208 million, which is a consequence of the new programmes of expenditure in England in relation to children with additional learning needs. The spring statement is not relevant to the announcement of £14 billion of additional investment in rail in Wales.

Of course, the headline from the spring statement yesterday was the halving of the economic growth forecast for 2026. It was originally planned to be 1.9 per cent for the UK; it's now been forecast to be at 1.1 per cent. We also heard that unemployment is rising to 5.3 per cent, the highest since the pandemic, and even more damning on unemployment is the fact that 16 to 24-year-olds are experiencing 16 per cent unemployment in the UK, much of which is as a direct result of UK Government policy. We're also aware from the spring statement that taxes are climbing towards 38.5 per cent of GDP, an historic high, and, of course, when you tax jobs and make it more expensive to hire, you don't get the prosperity that we need; it leads to stagnation. And of course, here in Wales, when UK growth slows, Wales feels it directly. Slower UK growth means lower tax receipts. Lower tax receipts mean tighter spending plans from the Treasury. And because Wales's budget is largely determined by UK spending through the Barnett formula, weaker growth in Britain means, in the long run, less money available for Welsh public services in the years ahead.

We believe, of course, that, if the UK economy grows strongly, Wales benefits through higher funding, more jobs, more investment and stronger wages. And if growth stalls, Wales is hit twice, with weaker private sector opportunity and tighter public finances. So, Cabinet Secretary, I wonder what analysis you've been able to make as a result of that weaker economic growth forecast to understand what impact that will have on investment here in Wales from the private sector and any knock-on effect to public services in Wales as well.

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, over the full five-year forecast period to 2030, real GDP is forecast to increase on average each year by 1.5 per cent, and that is unchanged compared with forecasts last November. There is downward revision in the early period. It's compensated for by upward revision later in the period. And over the period as a whole, there is no reduction in growth forecasts. In relation to unemployment, while the Member is right that the forecast sees an increase from the current 5.2 per cent to 5.3 per cent in forecasts, this then gradually decreases to 4.1 per cent at the end of the forecast period.

The spring statement also confirmed that inflation is falling, that interest rates are down six times since the general election, and includes growth in productivity, earnings and disposable household income over the forecast period. By the end of the forecast period, the Chancellor expects a current budget surplus of £24 billion, reached a year earlier than she was expecting earlier last year.

I'm not competing on the figures, Cabinet Secretary, and I'm sure it's really difficult to understand exactly what's going on, but I just wanted to raise the difficult cliff edge that exists as a result of the shared prosperity fund, which is 30 per cent capital and 70 per cent revenue, being tapered and coming to an end, to be succeeded by the local growth fund, which is 70 per cent capital and 30 per cent revenue. We know that there are many projects, currently very successful projects, that have been funded by the shared prosperity fund, like the breastfeeding project by Blaenau Gwent council, which has had an absolute transformational impact on mothers breastfeeding—over two thirds of mothers breastfeeding substantively, not just for 10 days—and others; other local authorities have invested in speech and language services, boosting them to make them more available to those who are involved in the youth offending teams, so that those people don't go to prison simply because they haven't understood what the magistrate has said to them. So, I just wondered if there's any possibility of making that taper less brutal as a result of this extra money.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I share the Member's concern about the transition from the shared prosperity fund to the local growth fund and the capital and revenue proportions as set by the Treasury for Wales in the growth fund. There was nothing in the spring statement that was relevant to those calculations.

Just to pick up on that point by Jenny Rathbone, there may not have been anything relevant to the calculations within the spring statement on the local growth fund, but now we do know that there is an additional £540 million in revenue coming to the Welsh Government, £15 million additional in capital. The Industrial Communities Alliance has discussed the potential of using some of that funding that's come from the spring statement to soften that blow to local authorities, perhaps even to save some of those jobs and services that are being lost as a result of that revenue and capital split.

Here's an opportunity now for Welsh Government to rectify the situation. Thousands of jobs are on the line in our local authorities. The anxiety within our local authorities is palpable. Neath Port Talbot, for example, is looking at losing potentially five jobs in relation to the welfare programmes that they have in place, which are offering millions of pounds to our constituents on a daily basis. So, I would impress on the Cabinet Secretary to use some of this funding now, if not to save those services and save those jobs within the local authority, at the very least fund an actual transition. There is no cash for the transition right now for local authorities. So, I would impress on the Cabinet Secretary to use that funding to save those jobs, to save those services, because right now those local authorities are really struggling and the anxiety amongst our workforce is incredibly, incredibly palpable.

Llywydd, well, the Member makes powerful points, but they are really not for me, they are for my successor, because none of the money announced in the spring statement falls into the current financial year. The final budget for next year was passed by this Senedd some weeks ago. An incoming Government will have £327 million more in revenue to spend than we knew about before yesterday, but those decisions will have to be made by a Government that has responsibility for managing the budget in the next financial year.

Finance Secretary, I don't make this as a political point, but the numbers that were in the spring statement yesterday, with the events that are going on in the middle east, could dramatically change in a relatively short period of time. I heard what you said to Luke Fletcher about the fact that the incoming Government will pick up this money, and it most probably will be very welcome indeed. But I would urge—and I hope you, from your position as finance Secretary, would urge—that a close eye is kept on the economy and the support that businesses might need with energy costs, and making sure that they maintain their business operations, because the pressure on those businesses could be as severe as the Ukrainian invasion, which pushed energy costs up only recently.

Could you confirm whether there are any plans from the Treasury to reach out to finance Ministers in the devolved administrations to discuss potential sources of help that might be required in the coming weeks and months, if the worst-case scenarios prevail with the events in the middle east?

Well, I thank the Member for those questions, which, in a way, I think, raise the most profound issues we've heard this afternoon, because the Chancellor's spring statement was created, and the forecasts made, prior to the US and Israeli invasion or attacks on Iran.

I think any incoming finance Minister would be very wise not to start spending that £327 million at this point, because there may well be some very urgent calls on revenue when the next Senedd assembles, in businesses, in the lives of Welsh citizens, in our public services. When energy prices rose immediately after the invasion of Ukraine, there was an £80 million bill for the national health service alone in increased revenue costs for energy. So, I agree very much with the points that the Member has made about the need for prudent management of the additional opportunities that came with the spring statement, because that money may well be needed.

As to opportunities to discuss matters with the Treasury, I did have a discussion with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury yesterday morning, prior to the spring statement, and I will be meeting him again with the finance Ministers of Scotland and Northern Ireland at the Finance: Interministerial Standing Committee meeting later this month.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the breakdown and the analysis that you gave of how much money would come as a result of which allocations were made in the spring statement yesterday. It is important, in terms of transparency, that we get that information, but shouldn't that have been in your written statement yesterday, rather than us having to have a topical question to get that information?

No. The Member must allow us a small amount of time to make sure that we understand the exact translation of decisions made behind the spring statement and where the money that flows to Wales comes from. I'm very pleased to have been able to set it all out for you this afternoon, but it does take a short period in order to be able to get behind the headlines in the spring statement and to understand exactly what the £555 million, which was announced in the spring statement, is made up of and how the various years work out, and how the split between capital and revenue works out, and so on. I'm glad to have been able to make it available to Members as soon as I was able.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. The first statement will be from Joel James.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. On Sunday, many of us celebrated St David's Day, a proud commemoration of our shared national heritage and identity. But 1 March was also World Seagrass Day, a reminder that some of the most powerful forces shaping our environment lie quietly beneath the waves. As the Welsh Parliament's seagrass champion, I'm proud to be working alongside fantastic organisations such as Project Seagrass, the Marine Conservation Society, Seagrass Network Cymru, Wales Environment Link, and WWF Cymru to advocate for its protection and restoration.

Though modest in appearance, seagrass is one of our oceans' greatest allies. It can sequester carbon up to 35 times faster than tropical rainforests. It filters pollutants, improves water quality, provides vital nursery habitats for marine life, and protects our coastlines by reducing wave energy and flood risk. It is rightly described as one of our most important natural solutions. It is therefore essential that we do everything possible to protect and restore our seagrass meadows and confront the challenges that threaten them. As we mark St David's Day, let us also remember that protecting our natural environment goes hand in hand with protecting our communities and investing in Wales's future. Thank you.

It was St David's Day last weekend, and there was a first-rate celebration in the Swansea valley this year, with a new local eisteddfod being held. Eisteddfod Cwm Tawe was held at Pontardawe Arts Centre on Saturday. It was the fruit of many months' work by volunteers who were eager to continue the activity and to build on the support for the Welsh language locally after the Urdd Eisteddfod was held in Neath Port Talbot, the Dur a Môr Eisteddfod of last year.

There were 88 competitions for singing, recitation, instrumental performances and homework, with over 500 participants. It was a deliberate decision by the organising committee to try to encourage Welsh learners to take part, and they did so with gusto. Over 1,000 people came through the doors. So, we must congratulate everyone who played a part in making Eisteddfod Cwm Tawe such a success.

The Dur a Môr Urdd Eisteddfod has also inspired the establishment of the Neath eisteddfod, which will be held at Dŵr-y-Felin Comprehensive School in Neath on 25 April this year. Choosing an English-medium school as the location is a deliberate decision again by the organisers, in order to build on the excellent number of local English-medium schools that competed in Margam park last year.

The Welsh Language Commissioner has noted this week the importance of ensuring that there are more opportunities in the community for using the Welsh language. So, I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to the organisers of both of these new local eisteddfods in Neath Port Talbot, and, in doing so, ensuring the continuation of our language and culture in the home of Gwenallt and Dafydd Rowlands.

Last week was Eating Disorders Awareness Week. This year, it focuses on the theme of community, a theme that could not be more important here in Wales. At least 62,500 people in Wales are living with an eating disorder, with hundreds of thousands more affected as family members, friends or colleagues. Yet, despite these numbers, many people experience eating disorders in profound isolation. Eating disorders can change how people relate to others, often leading to withdrawal from social life and deep reluctance to speak about what they're going through. Those who support someone with an eating disorder can also become isolated, facing stigma, misunderstanding, and, in some cases, being forced to step away from work or education.

We know that early intervention offers the best chance of recovery, but isolation can delay help-seeking, when people do not recognise the problem, don't know support exists, or feel they are not ill enough to ask for help. And that is why community matters. Compassionate, informed communities, whether found in families, workplaces, peer support groups or online spaces, can be a lifeline. As one participant in the Beat online support group said, 'I feel a bit better just having a place where I can talk about these things comfortably.'

This Eating Disorders Awareness Week, I urge us all to support Beat's work, raise awareness, and help build communities where no-one faces an eating disorder alone. Diolch.

Thank you to Joel, Sioned and Julie.

Item 5 is the nomination under Standing Order 10.5 for the appointment of the Auditor General for Wales, and I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee to move the motion. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you very much. The Auditor General for Wales is a Crown appointment, made on the nomination of the Senedd under section 2 of the Public Audit (Wales) Act 2013.

As the committee with delegated responsibility for overseeing arrangements relating to the Wales Audit Office, and the Auditor General for Wales, the Finance Committee has been involved throughout this recruitment process, and full details are outlined in the committee’s report.

As Members are aware, the auditor general is an essential role in Welsh public life. They ensure that our public bodies manage finances with efficiency and transparency, to the highest standards of governance. Their independence is fundamental to the integrity of the audit function, and it is this independence that underpins public trust in the way that Wales is governed.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I am pleased to move this motion today, on behalf of the committee, to nominate Catherine Mealing-Jones to His Majesty for appointment as the new auditor general.

I would like to begin by thanking the current auditor general, Adrian Crompton, for his dedication and significant contribution during his last eight years in post. Adrian has been an outstanding public servant and has served the post with distinction. I have had the pleasure of working with Adrian during my time as Chair of the Finance Committee, and I want to thank him for his positive and constructive engagement with us, as well as the insights and authority he has provided to the Senedd as a whole, which has informed our scrutiny work.

As outlined in our report, it is vital that the process of recruiting the auditor general is conducted in a way that removes it from any suggestion of political interference. As such, we ensured that two parties were represented on the appointment panel. Mark Isherwood and I represented the committees we chair, and we were joined by two other esteemed individuals, the chair of the Wales Audit Office board, Ian Rees, and the Comptroller and Auditor General for Jersey, Lynn Pamment.

Following the interviews, the preferred candidate attended a public pre-nomination hearing of the cross-party Finance Committee on 29 January, where members of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee were also invited to participate.

The committee firmly believes that a pre-nomination hearing ensures open and transparent scrutiny of the candidate identified as the most suitable. During the hearing with Catherine, we explored her professional competence, how she is planning to undertake the role of auditor general, and the experience and expertise she would bring to the position.

Catherine has shown a deep commitment to public service throughout her distinguished career to date, and has also demonstrated the key attributes required of this position. I therefore ask the Senedd to agree the motion to nominate Catherine Mealing-Jones to His Majesty for appointment as Auditor General for Wales. Thank you very much.

There are no other speakers. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 on our agenda is the Plaid Cymru debate on the rail network, and I call on Peredur Owen Griffiths to move the motion.

Once again. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. For decades, Wales's railway network has suffered chronic underfunding. While major projects have been funded in London and beyond, Wales has had to wait: wait for electrification, wait for improvements, and wait for fairness. This is not a matter of political theory; it's a clear pattern of prioritising investments in one part of the United Kingdom over other parts.

And when major announcements are made, Wales gets the headline, but not the certainty. We've seen this before. We were promised electrification of the north Wales main line. We were promised transformation. But when it came time to pay, the commitments disappeared following the election result. Now, we hear mention made of £14 billion. But what exactly does that £14 billion mean? Is it a funding promise? Is it a commitment with a clear spending profile? Or is it a nebulous and long-term estimate, depending on political goodwill at Westminster? Because if it is the latter, as I suspect, then there is no definite and dependable funding settlement. It's a hope written on paper or a convenient election pamphlet. Wales has lived on hopes like these for too long.

Last year, Professor Mark Barry made the point that if there is no political will on either side of the M4 to hand Wales full responsibility for its rail network, then Wales should be entitled to a ring-fenced fund of £2 billion to £3 billion over the next 15 years. In the most recent UK Government announcement, there is no confirmed additional funding within the current spending review period to March 2030. In practical terms, this is an uncosted announcement. At the current rate, it would take decades—dozens of spending reviews—to deliver what has been trailed. What we have been presented with is not a fully funded rail settlement, it is a long-term pipeline presented as a guarantee.

The £14 billion headline is not a cheque written to Wales, it’s an estimate of what projects might cost if future Governments decide to fund them. Within this spending review period, only a fraction is confirmed. The rest depends on political will, the very political will that Wales has too often found lacking. If this was genuinely locked in, Ministers could publish the year-by-year funding profile. They could confirm that the capital allocations are guaranteed, irrespective of who forms the next UK Government. They could show the Treasury line. But they cannot, because this is not certainty, it’s aspiration.

When a round-numbered, eye-catching £14 billion transformation appears on the eve of an election, without binding allocations or delivery schedules, people are entitled to ask whether this is infrastructure planning or electioneering. Where have we heard this type of thing before? We heard it on electrification of the north Wales main line—a promise delivered on the eve of another election that even the current Secretary of State said she was very, very suspicious of. When community groups across Wales that have worked tirelessly on making the case for new railway stations are encouraged by visits from the Prime Minister promising goodies, I fear they might be disappointed. I hope, for their sake, that the UK Government will follow through, regardless of election results.

Coming to the fundamental issue, as long as rail infrastructure remains reserved, Wales does not control its own destiny. We wait. We lobby. We negotiate. And, too often, we lose out. When rail powers were devolved to Scotland and Northern Ireland, they received funding adjustments. Wales did not. Regrettably, the Welsh Government has had to spend in non-devolved areas to plug the gap. Historically, the Welsh Government has funded most south Wales projects from the block grant, and has even offered to increase its contribution so that further schemes could get off the ground.

We saw this again recently, when the Welsh Government had to commit £21 million towards improvements at Cardiff Central station, stepping in where Westminster has fallen short. In 2020, we got operational control of the core Valleys lines when they were transferred to the Welsh Government. But without a fair corresponding uplift to the block grant, can we honestly describe that as full devolution?

I have selected the amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and North Wales to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Moved.

I call on Sam Rowlands to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I move the amendment in my colleague's name, Paul Davies, as laid out on the order paper. As Welsh Conservatives, we believe that good transport is not just a luxury, it's the backbone of a modern, growing economy. Today we are debating not just railways, but whether Wales chooses connectivity and co-operation within the United Kingdom, or whether we allow Plaid Cymru to drag us further down the well-worn path towards separation from the United Kingdom.

The Welsh Conservatives' amendment is clear. We recognise the importance of good transport connectivity to the economic prosperity of Wales. We know that investment in rail infrastructure that criss-crosses our nation is fundamental to ensuring Wales is fully connected within the United Kingdom.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly.

Do you, therefore, regret that the previous UK Conservative Government didn't deliver on this for Wales either?

What I do acknowledge, absolutely, is that the previous UK Conservative Government, in control periods five and six, invested £750 million and £350 million respectively, far surpassing what UK Labour are investing, £445 million. We think that it's absolutely essential that we're part of the United Kingdom, unlike the separatists in Plaid Cymru, who want to pull us away from the United Kingdom. We call for fairness—fairness in funding, fairness in classification, and fairness for the people of Wales.

Let me start with Plaid Cymru's central demand within this motion here today. They, obviously, seek full devolution of rail infrastructure. But let's be honest about this. It's not about creating better efficiency. It's not about creating better service delivery. It's all part of Plaid's strategy—incremental powers, one by one, designed to edge Wales further toward their ultimate objective, which is independence. Of course, we know, according to the UK Government, the cost of that independence is around £20 billion to taxpayers here in Wales. That's £11,000 per taxpayer here in Wales.

Will you take an intervention?

Certainly.

I'm not as ideologically driven as the Conservative Member is. Can he confirm that he is happy for Wales to be underfunded for rail, as long as rail stays centralised at Westminster?

We're absolutely calling for investment into Wales, and that's why we joined colleagues across this Chamber to ensure that HS2 funding comes through to Wales, not seen as an England and Wales project. Plaid Cymru is involved in every debate. Every debate they're involved in becomes the same debate. Every issue becomes a constitutional grievance, and rail infrastructure is simply the latest vehicle for that agenda. The Welsh Conservatives firmly oppose—

Can I make an intervention, please?

I'll take an intervention, yes.

Thank you so much. I'm not Plaid Cymru. I'm the Welsh Liberal Democrats. We don't believe in independence, and yet we want the devolution—full devolution—of rail funding to Wales. So, could you just amend your position, please, to say that it's not pro-independence? Because it's not. Diolch.

It sounds like quite a confused message from the Liberal Democrats there, which is nothing new for them either.

We firmly oppose any further devolution of rail infrastructure. Wales's economy depends on that cross-border connectivity. Businesses in Wrexham trade with Chester, of course, and firms in Cardiff trade with Bristol and London. Our rail network does not stop at our borders, and nor should our strategic planning.

To be fair to Plaid Cymru, they do seem a little confused, as we've seen from the Government's amendments that they've laid today. Let me read out the Government's amendments. Their first point in the amendment says:

'Regrets Plaid Cymru's mistaken belief that the core valley lines are not devolved.'

There's certainly some confusion there. The second amendment from the Government says:

'Notes devolution of the core valley lines took place in 2020'.

[Interruption.] A fourth intervention, Llywydd, just for the record.

Were you not listening when I said in my contribution earlier that it can't be full devolution if you don't get the funding and the block grant adjustment?

I clearly wasn't listening closely enough, but there's clearly some confusion amongst Plaid Cymru ranks as to how the devolution of rail currently works.

The second part of the confusion, I think, from Plaid Cymru ranks, is in their amendment on 4(b), where they are calling for this rail infrastructure devolution in line with powers already exercised by Scotland. Of course, rail infrastructure in Scotland is run by Network Rail. So, by rolling back the already devolved powers on the core Valleys lines, Plaid Cymru are actually looking to move further away from the devolution of rail if they want what Scotland has, as I say, because that is fully managed by Network Rail.

On the funding, HS2 is where we may be able to agree. HS2 has been classified as an England and Wales project, and yet not a single mile of track will be laid in Wales. That's simply not good enough. The Welsh Conservatives consistently said that Wales should receive that consequential funding from HS2, and we said that when we were in power as well as Welsh Conservatives. A matter of—[Interruption.] A fifth intervention, Llywydd.

Just for accuracy, Sam, that was not the Conservative position until the election when you joined the Senedd, and the position of the Tory group changed. Initially, the Tory group resisted the calls of many in this Chamber who wanted HS2 consequentials devolved. And also you are forgetting the broken promise by the Conservative transport Secretary to electrify the railway line to Swansea, which was then cancelled on the grounds that the Department for Transport didn't think it was good value for money. That is why we need to devolve rail funding, because it allows us to make those judgments ourselves based on the consequential share of the England railway fund, rather than be judged according to schemes in other parts of England.

I think what the Member isn't acknowledging is the strategic importance of that cross-border planning, and why actually we need to work across the United Kingdom. On HS2 funding, though, Welsh Conservatives—certainly during this term that I have been a Member here—have consistently called for that funding to come through to Wales.

When we talk about honesty in this debate, let us look at the recent £445 million UK Labour Government announcement for those new stations, which, of course, is an investment that we welcome here in Wales, but these are stations that have already been announced previously. It is not new money; they are repackaged commitments. The £14 billion support package being trailed remains speculative and without firm delivery timelines, to say the best of that.

As I said earlier to the Member who intervened, let us not forget that during control periods 5 and 6, the previous UK Conservative Government invested £750 million and £350 million respectively into Welsh rail infrastructure, far surpassing the commitments by the current UK Labour Government.

Llywydd, I believe my time is probably getting to an end, so I will draw my comments to a close. I want to be clear on what it is that we stand for. We stand for strong transport links across Wales and across the United Kingdom as an enabler for economic growth. We stand for fairness in funding. What we do not stand for is constitutional grandstanding disguised as infrastructure policy. Plaid Cymru see rail as another stepping stone to independence. We see rail as a means to create jobs, grow businesses, connect communities, and strengthen Wales within a successful United Kingdom. I urge all Members to support the Welsh Conservative amendments. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I think the Member that has just gone before me perhaps refused to acknowledge the historic underfunding by his own party and tried to justify that historic underinvestment.

I will start with a positive in my contribution. I do welcome the publication of Transport for Wales's plans. I think there is a lot to be positive about there. I regret that it has taken 27 years to get a plan in place. And also, I think we do have to reflect on the fact that the Secretary of State for Wales, the current one, Jo Stevens, did defend the historic underfunding continuation that we saw in the spending review by saying that the Welsh Government got everything it asked for. Everything it asked for. So, it is about time that we had this plan.

Over the past week, the Welsh Government has spoken with great enthusiasm about the UK Government's latest rail investment announcement. And if these commitments were firm, funded and guaranteed, they would indeed be welcome. I would think that every Member of Welsh Labour would want to be here and contributing to this debate. But they're not, are they? Because Wales has faced decades of chronic underinvestment by successive UK Governments and there's no sign that that's going to change. The damage is real. That underinvestment, those false promises, are real.

But we in Wales have learned time and again to treat such promises from Westminster with caution. We have earned the right to be sceptical because we've been let down too many times. We remember the commitment to electrify the Cardiff to Swansea main line—dropped overnight. We remember the pledge to upgrade the north Wales main line—allowed to fade away without explanation. We remember Labour's promise to reverse the injustice of the high speed 2 line, only for it to evaporate as quickly as Labour got the keys to Downing Street. I don't know how the Secretary of State for Wales can justify that u-turn.

Peredur, too, outlined—and I hope Sam will be listening now, because I will repeat it for his benefit—the transferring of the core Valleys line to the Welsh Government in 2020, but without the corresponding adjustments to the block grant. Hence why respected experts such as Professor Mark Barry referred to the devolution of the core Valleys line in inverted commas. Why are we treated differently to both Scotland and Northern Ireland?

And when it comes to this latest announcement, when we scrutinise the detail, the numbers simply do not add up. And I'd be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary would outline in his response how the figure was calculated. And of the headline £14 billion being touted, only £445 million relates to the current spending review period, and even that is spread thinly over a decade. For context, Wales needs around £250 million every year simply to keep pace with England's rail investment. There has been no clear explanation of when any additional money will be released, what it will fund or how these projects will move beyond the page into delivery stages and, more importantly, be delivered.

Thank you to Plaid for bringing this debate, because we definitely need to understand a bit better exactly what money is on the table and what isn't. So, I do congratulate Eluned Morgan and the Cabinet Secretary for transport on putting together a package that appears to be going in the right direction. You know, £14 billion has been promised for Wales, but we now need to unravel exactly—[Interruption.] Yes.

Fourteen billion pounds has not been promised to Wales. This is a list of projects that need to be done in Wales. I agree, you could add to it, but there is no promise of money to Wales.

Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. But in the short term, what we have is a commitment to push ahead with the south Wales metro lines that are incomplete at the moment. For my constituents, that is incredibly important, because at the moment there are just far too many people commuting into Cardiff by car because the opportunities to go by train simply don't exist at the moment. So, I'd like to think that the argument over funding has been resolved, but, clearly, we have to be looking at the detail, because my constituents have long-standing memories about past promises that have never been delivered. The electrification of the line to Swansea is one of them, which has impact on my constituents, because it means that the trains that arrive from London to Cardiff, in order to go on to Swansea and beyond, have to then move on to diesel, which means a massive injection of pollution into the air, which is particularly damaging for the people who live around Cardiff Central station.

So, what exactly does it mean for my constituents? My top priority has always been the upgrade of the south Wales line running east of Cardiff to the English border, because that is what enables us to ensure that we can get people out of their cars and onto the trains. Lots of other people like to talk about stations, but, frankly, the bit that will only ever be done by the public sector is the upgrading of the lines, because that is not the sexy bit. The stations are important too, because people have got to get on and off them safely, but I wasn't particularly happy about the creaming off of £155 million for the facelift on Cardiff Central station, and I represent Cardiff Central. So, we had this conversation with the Cardiff capital region, because it doesn't appear to be any benefit to the actual running of the transport system. It just appears to be an additional retail opportunity, which didn't make sense to me.

So, the top priority is definitely, for me, the south Wales relief lines, and I have asked for some detail on exactly what work is beginning and why hasn't it happened already yesterday. So, I'm told that the development work will start in April, with demand forecast, design timelines, materials they'll need to use, how they're going to build it, how they're going to manage the demand for the lines while they're being worked on, and, obviously, how they'll procure the project for the work to be done. However, I don't understand why that work can't be going on now, because that is a core job of Network Rail. They've done it before, it's tried and tested, they know what needs doing, and they know the companies out there who are capable of doing it. So, I'm frustrated, as it's going to take several months, at least, to get to the point where they even commence procurement and, for me, it's get-on-with-it time.

I wholeheartedly agree with the points that have been made by my colleagues in this debate. Quite simply, this is a headline figure that has no funding commitment behind it at all. But I want to focus on one issue in particular, and that is connectivity within Wales and within my region. We are once again seeing rural Wales and my region being left on the margins, because when we examine UK Government's funding announcements, one thing becomes immediately clear: west Wales is once again largely excluded. The UK Government spending review announced no rail funding for Wales further west than Cardiff or Deeside—not Swansea, not Carmarthen, not Aberystwyth, not Bangor, not Holyhead.

There are a number of examples in my region where investment is needed, such as a west Wales metro and direct railway links from Ammanford to Swansea. Instead, we are left disconnected. And these initiatives and the need for improvements on the Cambrian line and the development of a new St Clears station are identified in Transport for Wales's plan. However, with no clear funding to support these infrastructure projects, this will raise false hopes, create uncertainty for the local economy and ultimately result in broken promises.

And even when we look at the broader set of unfunded projects from the 'Today, Tomorrow, Together' plan, the emphasis too often appears to be on cross-border connectivity, strengthening links to English cities rather than improving connectivity within Wales. Let me put this into perspective. In the 'Today, Tomorrow, Together' plan, Aberystwyth is mentioned twice, Bangor four times, Carmarthen four times, London is mentioned four times, Bristol four times, Manchester four times, and Liverpool 26 times. The reality is that we don't control the levers that matter most, and we can't guarantee that investment decisions reflect Wales's national interests rather than Westminster's political priorities.

It's right, therefore, Llywydd, that we question a strategy that prioritises links with major English cities, while communities in Wales face poor, slow, infrequent and unreliable services. I wonder, even if this programme is ever delivered in full, whether the Government could tell us that there would be improvements made to journey times between, for example, Swansea, Carmarthen and Aberystwyth? What reduction would there be in travel time for passengers travelling between Cardiff and Holyhead, for example? How much quicker would services become between Bangor and Porthmadog?

Because for people living in rural areas and into west Wales, that is the test—not how quickly you can get to Manchester, but how easily one can travel from north to south and from east to west in our own country. And for too long, the rail infrastructure has reflected an economic model that draws economic activity over the border, rather than that investment strengthening the economy within Wales itself. If we are serious about seeing economic development taking place, rural regeneration and decarbonisation, then we must invest in improving connectivity within Wales.

And to conclude, Wales therefore needs more than warm words. We need a Government that is willing to stand up for Wales and demand what we are owed.

My contribution today focuses on the rail network in north Wales, mainly. It was extremely welcome to hear the announcement of the £14 billion generational investment in Welsh rail, a commitment to development—

Will you take an intervention?

Yes, I will.

Does the Member accept that there is no announcement of a £14 billion investment in rail in Wales?

There was an announcement of a £14 billion generational investment in Welsh rail. It was a commitment developed over the past two years by the Cabinet Secretary, Ken Skates, and significant enough to be required to be signed off by the Prime Minister, as it was. The First Minister rightly demanded fair funding for Wales, and that determination was delivered, and has been delivered by the Prime Minister. [Interruption.] I took one before. Let me make—[Interruption.] This announcement sits—. Let me make progress. This announcement sits alongside the publication of Transport for Wales's rail plan, ‘Today, Tomorrow, Together’, which clearly sets out where investment will take place and provides indicative costs, including for the electrification of the north Wales main line, which was mentioned earlier. The network north Wales programme also outlines delivery timelines and, in short, we now have a pipeline of projects, timetables, secured funding and work already under way.

Cross-border connectivity must always be central to our planning. Much of our transport network runs west to east, connecting communities with Chester, Liverpool and Manchester. Whether road, bus or rail, we must continue working closely with neighbouring authorities and Governments. Where initiatives such as care caps or concessionary passes are introduced, they must operate seamlessly across the border.

Unlocking capacity at Chester is crucial to improving services right across north Wales. It is also an important training hub for Transport for Wales drivers, and I'm pleased that improvements there are included in this programme. In Holyhead, a new £10.5 million automatic train wheel lathe facility opened last October. This allows on-site reprofiling of worn wheels, significantly reducing the need to send trains to Cardiff, improving fleet reliability and lowering maintenance costs. Safety improvements are also progressing as services become more frequent and faster, dangerous level crossings are being closed and replaced with safer alternatives, including bridges. At Shotton, a long-awaited bridge connecting the two lines will be delivered over the next few years, a major priority for the area, joining up those two lines. At Padeswood, work is already beginning to remove freight bottlenecks by enabling trains to shunt clear of the main line more efficiently, and effectively freeing up capacity for additional passenger services. Improvements at Buckley station, including enhanced safety measures, will support increased service capacity and will be delivered soon.

Tap on, tap off ticketing will be introduced across north Wales this year, making rail travel simpler and more accessible by allowing passengers to just turn up and pay as they go. I've long campaigned, alongside Ken Skates, for a station at Deeside industrial park. Thanks to this new funding, that ambition is becoming a reality, with a trial modular station set to be delivered rapidly.

Will you take an intervention?

I was—. Yes.

Yes, you quite rightly criticise that no funding was allocated for the north Wales electrification, but no funding has either been allocated for this, for the Transport for Wales plan. It is not in any Treasury budget line. We didn’t hear anything about it in the spring statement. Do you accept that it is the same kind of promise?

I do not. I do not. There's a pipeline of schemes that they are working through. They've started on them already—[Interruption.] They have started on the schemes already. Sorry, I shouldn’t respond in a conversation. I must remember that. But there are—

I would ignore them if I were you, and carry on with your contribution.

I was really keen—[Interruption.] I was really keen in my contribution to outline the schemes that are already being done now and the pipeline before electrification can take place. It is a generational amount of funding that needs to be there, worked through one at a time. Over the past decade, Wales has built this home-grown capacity. I was pleased to see presentations from Flintshire County Council and Transport for Wales, both of which have dedicated officers now focused on delivering network north Wales. As well as having the UK spending review funding, they're also using the investment zone funding and also the local growth deal, which is really important as well. Wales has built home-grown capacity, capability and expertise to deliver these transformational transport projects, and I'm so pleased that there's now a dedicated officer from Transport for Wales to deliver in north Wales.

The Welsh Government has made transport a priority, and now, with a UK Labour Government in place, we have the opportunity to move forward at pace and turn these plans into lasting delivery for the people of Wales. In Wales, we have protected and made sure that we keep guards in place, that we have passenger companions and that we haven't closed any stations. Transport is always a priority. Thank you, Llywydd.

There is befuddlement and confusion at large. We've heard talk of the £14 billion for rail in Wales. It does sound impressive, but beyond the £400 million already announced in last summer's spending review, funding meant to last until 2030, much of that figure is actually not in place. We deserve clarity about when the funding will arrive and what it will actually deliver, and I feel that that is what the focus of this debate is about today.

For Wales, we have been systematically short-changed on rail funding. We know that major projects based entirely in England have been labelled 'England and Wales', and we've lost out as a result. It feels like we should accept that and be absolutely clear with our communities that that is not acceptable.

The Welsh Liberal Democrats in Parliament have tabled an amendment to the UK Government's Railways Bill to fully devolve rail powers to Wales, putting us on the same footing as Scotland. The amendment would remove rail infrastructure from the list of powers reserved to Westminster and require the transfer of responsibility for rail infrastructure, services and funding to Welsh Ministers within two years. It would mean Wales could plan, fund and deliver its own rail network properly and stop relying on warm words from Whitehall. So, I would like to hear from the Cabinet Secretary: will he publicly place on record his request that Welsh Labour MPs at Westminster back that amendment to fully devolve rail powers to Wales, so that we have the same control over our railways as does Scotland?

Like Cefin, I represent a very rural area and we are incredibly short-changed, but we have one good example in the Heart of Wales line, which most certainly needs more funding. I was pleased when I got an extra—just one extra—a fifth service. That's all—five services a day coming through. And I want to be more ambitious and to go for eight trains a day, because five trains is simply not enough for our young people to go to college, for people to go to work, for our tourists to come in and out. It is simply unacceptable for a rural area such as ours. So, I'm asking the Cabinet Secretary: would he work with Transport for Wales to secure those eight services a day?

Just to finish, apart from my opening phrase about the befuddlement and confusion, I think we deserve in this Siambr to be absolutely clear what the funding situation is. Our understanding is that there is, and has been, underfunding of the Welsh rail network. We are the poor cousins left behind, picking up the crumbs from underneath the table, and that is not acceptable. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

In 1968, I was 15. I sat in a room of over 800 people and I listened to Gwynfor Evans, the grandfather of our very own Mabon ap Gwynfor, demanding the electrification of railways in Wales. That same 15-year-old in two weeks turns 73, so you may understand why I have little confidence in successive Westminster Governments delivering for my country. When we talk about devolution, in particular the core Valleys lines in 2020, we have to ask ourselves a very simple, honest question: can we truly call it devolution if the cheque book didn't follow down the tracks? In Scotland and Northern Ireland, when rail infrastructure was devolved, the funding arrangements were modified to match; they got the powers and the pounds. But, here in Wales, we were handed the responsibility, told to get on with it and then forced to cannibalise our existing budget to pay for it. You've heard this three times in this debate. Professor Mark Barry rightly puts 'devolution' in inverted commas when talking about the core Valleys lines. It deserves repeating three times, because it hammers the message home: it's a devolution in name, but a drain in practice. Every penny we have to divert to prop up underfunded rail infrastructure is a penny taken away from schools in my constituency in Caerphilly or a hospital wing in any hospital across the whole of Wales.

I am certain that the Cabinet Secretary will stand up today and boast about the £48 million announced in the spending review. Look, we never turn our noses up at extra funding in Wales—of course we don't—but let's look at the fine print, the part, of course, that the Labour Government seems to have conveniently forgotten how to read since the general election. That investment is spread over 10 years. It's worth repeating: 10 years. It's a fact that Wales needs £250 million extra every single year just to reach parity with England. It's a fact that this top-up is a drop in the ocean. It's a fact that it's a sticking plaster on a gaping wound caused by Westminster's systematic underfunding. The reality is this: we wouldn't need these one-off gifts if the UK Government had adjusted the block grant fairly in the first place.

What I find most telling, Llywydd, is the sudden outbreak of silence from the front bench. When the Cabinet Secretary held this brief previously, chwarae teg, he was vocal about the unfairness of this transfer. He knew then, as we know now, that Wales was being short changed. Yet, today, the Welsh Government seems to have developed a case of political amnesia now that their own party holds the keys to No. 10. If the Conservatives were still in power—

Are you giving way, Lindsay?

Sorry. I didn't hear. Sorry, Carolyn, I didn't see you.

That's okay. I know that, long term, we'd like to see devolution of the network in Wales. I know that a lot of work needs to take place to bring it up to standard as well, a lot of investment. But the amount of money that we in Wales can hold in the Welsh reserves is really limited, so for us to have funding come across, do you not agree that that also has to be increased as well?

I'm delighted that you welcome the devolution of more funding to Wales, but I don't believe in holding too much money in reserves, because it's devaluing; I want to spend the money immediately, and that's the most important thing. Certain amounts must be kept in reserves, of course, but that's for emergencies.

Look, as I've said, if the Conservatives were still in power, I suspect that the Government's amendment to our motion today would look very different. That is the fundamental difference between Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party: when we call for fairness, it isn't conditional on who's sitting in Downing Street. Our demand for justice isn't a tap you turn on, it isn't a tap you turn off, depending on which party is in power. We deserve the assets, we deserve the powers and we deserve the funding. It is time that the Government found its voice again and demanded the full, uncompromised investment that the people of Wales and the Valleys were promised. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I just take a step back here to reflect on what's been achieved in the last 10 years, since I've been in the Senedd Chamber? A decade ago, Transport for Wales didn't exist. It was simply a collection of consultants who'd been asked to come up with a plan. And here we are, 10 years on, with a £1 billion metro delivered, with brand-new trains right across Wales, and investment of some £2 billion. We have the Burns report now finally being committed to be implemented. It was announced, you may remember, in November 2020, with a set of recommendations for new stations and the upgrading of the south Wales main line to create a public transport alternative to the M4. We now finally have a UK Government commitment, which was not offered during the time of the last Conservative Government. It's taken over five years to get those pieces into place, but we are now going to have five new stations and the main line upgraded, and the Government has committed to that. That is a significant commitment and a significant step forward. We also now have a pipeline of schemes identified and jointly agreed with the Department for Transport and the Wales rail board to create that stream of investment over the next decade and a half. That is also a very significant achievement.

There's a big debate this afternoon about whether numbers have been committed in advance, and you'll notice that the schemes that the UK Government have committed to in England, which are seen as England and Wales schemes, but we know they're England schemes, there's no funding in the budget line for those either. Those are commitments made. The way rail funding works is that at each stage you have to make the case for funding, you have to create a business case, you have to get Network Rail approval. It is painfully slow, and the money is released by the Treasury at those gateway points, and that's what we're going to have to do here. We're going to have to continue to make the case and to fight for the investment step by step.

But what we have, crucially, as a result of this announcement, which has been worked on for years by Transport for Wales, is an agreed pipeline of schemes that are developed, and that's the difference. I think that Sioned Williams made an intervention earlier about, 'Isn't this the same as the north Wales main line electrification scheme?' It's not, because that was not a developed scheme. That was a press release. What we have here are fully worked-up proposals for rail schemes. We have, I think, £4.5 billion-worth of schemes now ready to deliver, and that's a stark contrast to what happened under the last Government.

I completely accept that, but I wasn't actually talking about the proposals, I was talking about the nature of the financial commitment, rather than the proposals themselves.

Well, this is a different thing. This is a commitment to work jointly with Transport for Wales through the Wales board to deliver a whole series of schemes that have been worked up jointly between the Welsh and the UK Governments. That's significant.

Will you take an intervention?

Happy to.

I was talking to Lord Wigley in the past few days about exactly the same exercise having been done for the north Wales main line by UK Governments in 1975-76. The promise was made, the plan was drawn up; we're still waiting 50 years on. That's why people have no faith.

Well, look, I completely agree. It would be better if we had rail fully devolved to Wales, and we could make the decisions on priorities ourselves, and that is the policy of Welsh Labour and of this Government. Unfortunately, it's not the policy of the UK Government, and I deeply regret that. I think that is a major mistake they are making. That's why we've created devolution, so we in Wales can make our policy and agree our priorities, and we all agree what the priorities are to fully devolve that funding to Wales, so we can make those judgments. So, this doesn't go as far as you want it to go. I understand that, and I understand the whole—

Will you take an intervention?

In a second. I understand the pre-election rhetoric, but I do think it's a mistake, in criticising that, not to recognise what has been achieved and what is being delivered here, which is significant. I'm happy to give way to Jane Dodds.

Thank you so much, and I'm grateful to you for referring to the position that Welsh Labour find themselves in in terms of the devolution of rail as opposed to UK Labour. I'm just really interested: what do you feel needs to happen in order to ensure that your colleagues, and your Welsh colleagues in particular, in London actually vote for the amendment that devolves rail funding and the whole system to Wales? Diolch.

Well, look, there is some nervousness about devolving rail fully to Wales, which I understand. When you look at the projections of climate change adaptation costs over the next 10 to 30 years, they are enormous. The amount of railway line we have in Wales that hugs the coast, that threatens to be washed away, and when you look at the cost of the Conwy valley line alone having been washed away twice in fairly recent years, which is currently picked up by the UK Government because railway infrastructure is not devolved, were that within the block grant, that would be a very significant burden, and that's a burden that's going to keep increasing. So, there's, I think, sensible caution about signing up to a headline of, 'Let's devolve', without getting all those details agreed. It's not beyond the wit of man to agree those details, and to create a pot of funding to cover the liabilities, but let's not be flippant about it. It's a big deal, and it's complex.

If I may, Llywydd, briefly, the bit I am cautious about with the announcement is the jagged-edge way of the way the current settlement works. As we say, it is not devolved. Therefore, the UK Government should be paying its full share of railway infrastructure investment in Wales. And yet, within the announcement, we see that the Padeswood cement line in Flintshire, which is a critical piece of infrastructure, needs to be part funded by the north Wales growth deal, and the Cardiff Central train station upgrade is part funded by the Welsh Government and part funded by the south Wales growth deal, which in itself is part funded by the Welsh Government. So, that is not right. These are UK Government responsibilities. They should be fully funded by the holder of powers, namely the UK Government. [Interruption.] If I have time, Llywydd, I’m—

Yes.

Thank you for taking the intervention, and I welcome that comment. It is a very important comment to make. And does the Member agree with me that there is an opportunity lost to invest in other parts of the economy when, for example, the growth deal in north Wales has to contribute where the UK Government should be paying?

Well, all of the rail investment we’ve seen—the near £2 billion investment in the Welsh lines—are an opportunity cost. They’ve had to come out of other budgets. And I think there’s a broader reflection for this Senedd and the next Senedd. We get very excited about rail schemes and we talk about their economic impact. They are very expensive. They carry comparatively few passengers. It’s buses that carry the most passengers. And the key opportunity for us now, with this new pipeline that’s been agreed, and with the bus Bill passed, and with the creation of expert capacity at TfW, is to look at an integrated transport system, at rail and bus side by side.

And let’s not all fetishise and get excited by rail because it’s sexy and we all like train sets. We need to think about the needs of passengers and how buses and trains work together. And that may well be we’re far better off spending more money on buses and less on rail schemes. But let us not also fail to acknowledge the huge progress we’ve made in 10 years, and the much better inheritance the next Government, the next Senedd, is going to be getting than we had when I started here 10 years ago.

The Cabinet Secretary for transport now to contribute. Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, I’d like to thank Heledd Fychan for tabling this motion. It is vitally important, I believe, that we secure cross-party support for long-term investment decisions, regardless of whether they’re rail or in other areas. And 'Today, Tomorrow, Together' sets out a clear vision for rail in Wales over the next 15 years. Cross-party support for it will, I believe, help ensure that, in spite of electoral cycles and possible changes in Governments, the full £14 billion of rail upgrades will be completed. This is an approach that ensured HS1, the Elizabeth line and the south Wales metro were all completed regardless of political change.

None of these projects had funding provided, nor did the 2012 Olympic Games when they were awarded to London in 2005, nor was Theatr Clwyd when we agreed to modernise it, nor were the hospitals and the schools that we’ve built and rebuilt. Confirmation and approval of a plan comes first; funding follows in stages. 'Today, Tomorrow, Together' is fully supported by the UK Government, who have committed to deliver the many schemes as soon as possible, and, of course, have agreed to fund them. We now need that same commitment of support from opposition parties to fix the course of public transport improvements for the next decade and a half. And to quote the former Plaid Cymru Member of Parliament, Jonathan Edwards,

'It is highly unlikely that a Welsh government of another political colour would have'—

Okay, the Minister has frozen in his remote connection. I’ll give you one more attempt to connect properly. Ken, you did freeze for the last few seconds, so if you continue, we’ll see if we can continue with this line. If not, I’ll move to the next speaker.

Apologies, Llywydd. 'Today, Tomorrow, Together', for the first time in a long, long time, has resulted in rail investment taps being turned on.

Now, I’m going to address the motion as tabled first. I’m not going to be critical about any mistakes that have been made in the motion, because rail is complicated, but responsibility for the core Valleys lines has been devolved since 2020, with a corresponding block grant transfer. Transformation funding from the UK Government has been secured, along with investment in the baseline for CVL operations and also investment for maintenance and operations.

Cardiff Central station was mentioned. The reason that Welsh Government has contributed investment is because of the nationalisation that took place back in 2021, when we inherited investment decisions from Keolis. Had we not nationalised rail services, then the private sector would have made the contribution, but I make no apology for honouring Keolis's promise when we nationalised services that they had been responsible for. Our investment will vastly increase capacity at Cardiff Central. It will meet increasing demand and improve passenger safety.

Point 2 claims that the announcement on rail is largely uncosted during the current UK parliamentary term. In actual fact, the entire programme of work, not just the immediate and short-term projects, has been costed at approximately £14 billion, and funding of almost £0.5 billion has been allocated in this spending period. Now, when support is committed for long-term rail announcements of this nature, we require support from across parties—

Are you taking an intervention? I have an intervention from Heledd Fychan, Ken Skates.

Yes, of course.

And Jenny Rathbone.

Sorry.

Jenny was first, sorry.

Sorry, I have two requests for an intervention. Jenny Rathbone first. Are you taking that intervention?

Ken, I just wondered—

No, I need confirmation that Ken Skates is taking the intervention. Yes, he is. Jenny Rathbone.

Okay. Thank you very much. At this stage, Ken Skates, I wondered if you could tell us whether Mark Barry's assessment that the projects that are outlined as being the most immediate ones will cost more than the £300 million that remains from what was promised in last year's spring statement, and where is that money, then, going to come from?

Well, Jenny, as I've tried to explain on a number of occasions, the programme of work on the five stations is going to take longer than three years, so it will obviously require additional funding in the next spending period. The next spending period's allocations are due to be announced next year, but the UK Government has committed to funding the five stations in full, regardless of whether they take three, four or five years to complete.

Point 3(a) of the motion calls for the devolution of rail in line with powers exercised by Scotland and Northern Ireland. Now, it is curious, as Sam Rowlands has touched on. I'm going to leave Northern Ireland aside because of time, but the Scottish settlement does not include ownership of rail lines. Therefore, to have the Scottish model, Welsh Government would effectively have to surrender ownership of the core Valleys lines, in which we have invested £1.1 billion. Moreover, the Scottish Government holds competence over the promotion and construction of railways that start, end and remain in Scotland. So, again, having the Scottish model would mean that the north Wales main line, the Wrexham-Liverpool line, the Marches line, the Heart of Wales line, the Cambrian line, and the south Wales main line would fall out of scope. We would, however, have the joy of competence over the Conwy valley line, which currently costs Wales nothing to maintain, but would, as Lee Waters has outlined, cost Welsh taxpayers millions upon millions to sustain because of climate change. It's also a fact that Scotland are not happy with their devolution settlement.

I'm afraid that the Plaid motion demonstrates a lack of understanding and indicates a lack of competence over rail. Turning to the Conservative amendment, first of all, I agree entirely with points 1 and 2. However, point 3 doesn't reflect the details of the announcement, specifically the new stations that were announced and can be found in the document on pages 18, 19, 31, 33 and 35. New stations across Wales will be built, including, but obviously not limited to, Caerleon, St Athan, Wrexham north, Wrexham south, all of the Swansea bay metro stations and additional south-east Wales metro stations, just to identify a small number.

I'm sorry. Would you take an intervention?

Yes.

Thank you. I just wanted to point out that you mentioned page 34, but when you look at that, it mentions £10 billion. I would be grateful if you could provide clarity on the £14 billion figure. I think everyone here would appreciate that clarity, even in writing would be helpful. But also, can you also confirm—? You've just said that these are basically done deals, but actually when you read the text, it says that further work is required

'to explore how they can best be delivered and whether they would provide good value for money.'

So, surely these aren't definite. Further work is required to even know if they're viable. Do you accept that?

No, I don't accept that. When it comes to value for money, it's all about how you design, build and deliver schemes. As we've seen with the south Wales metro, discontinuous electrification has guaranteed value for money, and so you have to go through a process of design and assessment before you actually sign off a project.

I'm just going to go back to the Conservatives' amendment. Point 4 calls for the reinstatement of funding for electrification of the north Wales main line. It is clearly central to network north Wales, and it is part of 'Today, Tomorrow, Together'. As I've just mentioned, funding for development work for electrification is crucially important. It is part of the network north Wales budget allocation. Work to assess the best form of electrification is taking place right now, and it is being informed by the extensive experience of the core Valleys lines transformation.

Cefin Campbell, I think, gave a very clear indication that Plaid Cymru would pull the plug on cross-border connectivity, and sadly draw a slate curtain across the border. Incidentally, when it comes to mentions of places, that prospectus for Northern Powerhouse Rail referred to the benefits for north Wales dozens of times, and yet Plaid Cymru continually criticise it.

My thanks to Carolyn Thomas and Lee Waters for outlining comprehensively why the plan is transformational and follows the success of TfW in delivering £800 million of new trains and completing the south Wales metro. I'd ask Members this very simple question: do you support Transport for Wales's plans or not? If you back it, back our amendment. If you don't, then your opposition to this historic and huge investment will be noted.

Rhun ap Iorwerth now to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'm grateful to everyone who's participated in this afternoon's debate. It's a debate on an issue the people of Wales have long since come to a conclusion is about far more than how we travel from A to B, but a matter of real injustice, and that's the funding of our railways. And what's shocking to me is the Welsh Government is willing to accept that injustice, and rather than doing what everyone else is doing and insisting that that historic injustice should come to an end, with a real plan in order to deliver that, they are saying 'Let us forget and move on.'

I can't quite believe that the Welsh Government, facing the continued injustice of a lack of firm commitment on spending for rail in Wales that's been going on for decades—an injustice that's been going on at the hands of successive UK Governments, both Labour and Conservatives—think what's needed is to tell this Senedd today that it's time to move on. That's what the Labour amendment says: 'move on'. Well, Llywydd, Plaid Cymru won't move on until we actually see that injustice being put right.

We've heard, I tell you, some nonsense from Labour on rail over the years, but this last couple of weeks has been something else. There was that that sheer embarrassment, wasn't there, of the Welsh Secretary saying that HS2 no longer exists. She'd made the case for Wales to get over £4 billion of consequentials at one time, but then she got the wrong end of the stick somewhere and said it had been cancelled, and so Wales wasn't owed anything. You couldn't make it up. Well, it does exist, of course, and the injustice exists. And where Scotland and Northern Ireland get consequentials for that and for other multibillion-pound rail projects, Wales gets nothing. People are fuming about this, and rightly so.

But after Labour, in opposition of course, told the Tories to pay up, they get into Government and there's no money. What they do is make an announcement in the comprehensive spending review of £445 million for Wales—a tenth of what was owed because of HS2, of course. But anyway, it should be on top of HS2, not instead of it. And that's over the best part of a decade, as we've heard. The Welsh Government hailed this as a great success, but to put it in perspective, that £445 million is for all rail enhancements in Wales over the best part of a decade.

The city of Leeds got £240 million for a station upgrade. Reading station—it's lovely—cost double what Wales as a whole is set to receive. And the £445 million is only 6 per cent of the money owed to Wales from historic underfunding from other projects, based on the Welsh Government's own analysis in 2020. I congratulate the current transport Minister for his work in highlighting, in the past, what the underinvestment has been. What's changed?

So, yes, Wales short-changed again, £445 million. What did the Labour Welsh Secretary say when that sum was announced? Jo Stevens said:

'People were right to worry that Wales’s rail network was being left behind after years of Tory empty promises. No longer'.

What did Cardiff University's Wales Fiscal Analysis centre say?

'Any suggestion that this funding in any way compensates Wales for the loss incurred from HS2 is obviously unsustainable. It does not substantially change the overall picture of underfunding of Welsh rail infrastructure.'

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, I defer voting until voting time.

We'll take the short debate next. Today's short debate is from Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much. I'm honoured to table this short debate today and wish, once again, to underscore the critical importance of safeguarding and protecting our unique artistic legacy and heritage, the importance to Wales of our international and local talent production, and the importance of music and the arts to our everyday well-being. I wish to offer some time in this debate to Julie Morgan, Jane Dodds, Heledd Fychan, John Griffiths and Peter Fox.

Many in this Chamber will know that Creative Wales is going from strength to strength, supporting new music and local community music making, that we are seeing a renaissance in popular music and composition, including gaming, and that today we actually see brass bands and choirs turning the trajectory post COVID. But it is the role of key culturally significant national organisations of Wales that is also critical to our creative infrastructure and critical to the well-being, health, talent and economic productivity of Wales, as has been recently outlined in Scotland by UK Music.

Indeed, it was the highly musical Julie Andrews who sang, pianissimo dolce, 'Let's start at the very beginning'. I'm not going to speak to my commissioned report, 'Land of Song', and I definitely won't sing, but I will touch upon the critical importance—

I think you should sing.

I could have done. The critical importance of the safeguarding of the Wales national music plan. The basic elements of these are critical.

Because, Members, we have so much to be proud of, which includes the huge passion of our growing army of artists and teachers. We have so much to celebrate as we look into the future and face those considerable challenges ahead. Not only did Wales create the national health service and the people's opera—and many know that the Welsh National Opera was devised by doctors, amateurs and miners—but we were also the very first nation in the world to create a national youth orchestra. This year, the Welsh youth orchestra is 80 years old, and I'm sure the Senedd will join with me in celebrating that epic longevity and innovation.

It is right and proper that we don't just note, but that we recognise the lives that the National Youth Orchestra of Wales has transformed and the careers it has launched, and that we celebrate and nurture such national treasures and its creative home with National Youth Arts Wales's innovative leadership.

It is about time that we celebrate our dedicated and hard-working national cultural organisations. I myself wish to pay homage today to the plethora of hard-working staff, musicians, teachers and tutors. I know how hard they have worked in order to achieve considerable outcomes for students, communities and for Wales. That is acknowledged globally in 'Land of Song'.

Thank you all very much.

For the musicians and teachers of Wales, and across the arts and music services, today we now see music GCSE's take-up improve, and it is right that our teachers are recognised and that their passion and commitment are recognised fully. Thank you for that work.

As we approach a new Senedd, it is critical that the Wales national music plan is recognised for what it is: a strategic master plan, a living document. I want to give thanks to Emma Coulthard, its author. This document, its principles and themes, alongside a clear pyramid structure that it scopes, are both valuable and valued. It has led today to an internationally renowned musical education infrastructure. The national music plan has driven a built-in-Wales and operated-in-Wales policy agenda. It was a midwife that directly bore the national music service, and developed and mainstreamed those possibilities and probabilities. A strong National Youth Arts Wales, which provides Wales's innovative national orchestral, band and choral opportunities, is also now delivering on so much more.

Nonetheless, the need for longer term planning funding cycles for many is now of critical importance if we are to truly transform the numerous innovative projects such as, for example, the National Youth Arts young person's passport. Did the Chamber know, for instance, that today, our Wales musical education infrastructure is regarded as innovative best practice, or that Wales has been asked to showcase our offer internationally, that the national music service's innovative leadership and collaborative approach with National Youth Arts Wales, and alongside providers like Welsh National Opera, has marched through the schools of Wales, establishing first-experience programmes, whole-class initiatives, the roll-out of tiered orchestral and band opportunities and experiences once more? These are real opportunities, and they are needed for skills building and the delivery of an equitable playing field for those who cannot afford private tuition or private courses. That principle of equity is fundamental and underpins that national plan.

These organisations—National Youth Arts Wales and National Music Service Wales—are of cultural significance to Wales. Such innovation deserves due respect. And with increased funding, their outputs would be transformative, I have absolutely no doubt. And this would be financial peanuts compared to other Welsh Government budget lines. Today, despite commitment and support from this Government, they float, with single teams and flatlined budgets, when they are delivering so very much for Wales—truly over and above what should be possible. Despite massive outputs, these organisations cannot be hand-to-mouth, because they are able to truly transform the musical and creative landscapes of Wales and our economy.

The Member has allowed time for five individuals.

Do you have five names that have requested time to speak?

Yes, certainly. I think we've got Julie Morgan first, followed by Peter Fox, followed by John Griffiths, and then Jane Dodds and Heledd Fychan.

Excellent. The same five as I've got. So, if we take them in that order. Who was first in that order? Julie Morgan? We'll take you first.

Diolch. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to speak in this very important debate today about how to protect our fantastic cultural organisations here in Wales. And I'd like to thank Rhianon for her enthusiasm and her leadership in this very important field. So, diolch, Rhianon.

Wales's cultural organisations are not luxuries, they are essential national assets that shape our identity, nurture young talent and project Wales's voice onto the world stage. If we want a confident, creative, forward-looking nation, then cultural investment must be protected, not eroded. And as Rhianon has said, we do see great potential, but also great fragility, such as the emerging junior department at the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. Now, I fought to keep the junior conservatoire open, along with Rhianon and many in this organisation, and it was an absolute tragedy that it closed. But now is the opportunity to do something there, and I urge the Welsh Government to do all it can to support that development. And, again, Rhianon mentioned the Welsh National Opera. It is an absolute tragedy that that has been under threat. So, I think we have to make certain that the Welsh National Opera survives and flourishes. Because if we value these institutions, we must give them the stability they need. Diolch.

I'm grateful to Rhianon Passmore for bringing forward this important and timely debate. Wales is a home to world-leading cultural organisations that don't just preserve our heritage, but protect and celebrate our Welsh identity, something I hope all parties here support. At a time when budgets are tightened across the public sector, it's never been more important to secure and safeguard cultural spend so that this richness is not lost.

In my own constituency of Monmouthshire, from county events like our agricultural shows to community traditions at Tintern abbey, culture brings people together, supports small businesses and showcases Wales to visitors. If we want Wales to continue leading globally in the arts, heritage and culture, we must protect funding and give organisations like the National Youth Orchestra of Wales, the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and others that stable recognition and long-term planning cycles that they need. Investing in culture shows a commitment to the people of Wales today and to the future generations. Diolch.

I too congratulate Rhianon Passmore on bringing this important short debate to the Senedd today and very much agree that we do need to protect and enhance our leading cultural organisations. I would also say that we need to ensure that those leading cultural organisations work with our grass-roots art and cultural scene across Wales.

In Newport, we have a local authority cultural strategy now that I think has been very important and successful in providing a new focus, a new prioritisation, for culture and the arts in Newport. We've had new venues as a result, new activities, and a new sense of momentum and promotion through the local authority, with a host of grass-roots cultural organisations and communities working with that strategy, which was very much developed with that grass-roots scene in the first instance. So, I hope very much that our leading cultural organisations in Wales, as we do, I hope, protect and enhance them, take the time to understand those local strategies for culture that have been developed by local authorities and others, and understand how they, as those leading organisations, can help and support those vital local strategies. Diolch yn fawr.

I pay tribute too to Rhianon for her absolutely sterling work in this area. You have been the absolute leader in terms of bringing us along as a Senedd in this area, and I do pay tribute to you and thank you.

Culture and arts and sports as well are actually health-preventative measures. They help us all as humanity in terms of our own emotional and mental health. I'm just going to talk for less than a minute on museums, because they are absolutely invaluable to our arts and culture experience. They are learning hubs, community anchors and gateways to opportunity. I know, having visited Amgueddfa Cymru, that they have Flying Start sessions, workshops for hard-to-reach communities and outreach programmes to bring culture directly to young people and adults who might otherwise never engage and never step foot in a museum. Again, I pay tribute to Welsh Liberal Democrat Jenny Randerson, who has sadly passed, for the work that she did to ensure that our museums offer free entry to all and that that was enshrined in law. If we are serious about safeguarding culture in Wales, we must ensure that our museums can not only exist, but thrive as spaces that educate, inspire and connect communities. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you, Rhianon, for bringing forward this really important short debate. We don't talk about culture enough here. We should do, and I hope we can send a message to the next Senedd that it has to be a central pillar. Because if we look at the facts, we are at the bottom of European league tables. That's not good enough. I've had previous Ministers with responsibility for culture, when I've made the case for culture, shout at me back in this Chamber, 'What about the NHS?' It is interlinked, and I hope to see the next Government seriously consider how culture can be in every portfolio.

Let's look at some facts: WNO turnover today is £12 million. It was the same in 2000. The funding for the Arts Council of Wales was, in 2011, £33 million to £34 million. It's the same now. So, no wonder we're at the bottom of those European league tables. It's not just about providing that funding, it's providing opportunities for everyone, wherever they are in Wales. Currently, culture is not accessible to everyone. It is a human right and we need to make sure that the next Senedd takes culture seriously.

The Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership now to respond to the debate—Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Can I join colleagues from across the Chamber in recognising Rhianon Passmore as a real champion for Welsh culture? She has been over a sustained period of time now, and will no doubt continue to be in the future. And I thank Rhianon for tabling this debate today. It's a debate that is very timely, coming just a few days after St David's Day. And I was delighted, Llywydd, to see St David's Day and the events that happened across Wales made possible because of the Welsh Government's commitment, through a £1 million St David's Day fund, championed by the First Minister Eluned Morgan. Successful projects covered a wide range of activities that promote traditional and contemporary Welsh culture, such as music, art, literature, sport, food and the Welsh language.

Llywydd, a key part of our 'Priorities for Culture' is that culture should be resilient and sustainable. So, again, I think this is a timely debate, given the recent calls to pause on delivery and consult on a further strategy. Our priorities for culture are just that, Llywydd—they are a road map that was designed with and for the sector. As a direct result of the priorities for culture, we've seen significant capital investment—over £10 million for arts infrastructure in 2025-26, and in the next financial year another £3.3 million through the priorities for culture capital funding grant scheme for local museums, libraries and archives. We're also providing over £2.5 million in revenue grants to local authorities and trusts across the next two years, money that is supporting a range of projects at locations across the country to support the delivery of the 'Priorities for Culture' and its ambitions.

Llywydd, I want to try and structure my remarks around the three themes that were titled in the Member's motion today: protecting, enhancing and enshrining our cultural organisations. Firstly, to protection: protecting our cultural organisations begins with stability, begins with independence and begins with trust. Cymru has a strong tradition of arm's-length governance that safeguards artistic freedom, whilst ensuring accountability for public investment. Organisations must be able to take creative risk, challenge perspectives and innovate, and they can only do that if their independence is respected and protected.

Protected also means supporting resilience. Where possible, we are committed to providing greater funding certainty, recognising that short termism undermines long-term planning and creative ambition. Our role as a Government is not to micromanage but to work in partnership, supporting good governance, strong leadership and diversified income. As an example of our investment, at Amgueddfa Cymru we are providing over £11.8 million of additional capital funding this financial year, on top of the £5 million capital we provide as part of its grant in aid. This will support decarbonisation, priority works at National Museum Cardiff, the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum, the restoration and reopening of St Fagans castle and glass houses, as well as further visitor improvements.

Will you take an intervention?

I will.

Thank you very much. I acknowledge the emphasis you've put there. Certainly, I would echo those. But, unfortunately, over the course of this Senedd term, we've seen hundreds of job losses in these sectors, just looking at National Museum Wales and the national library. So, do you concede that we've actually gone back over the past five years? And through austerity, I understand that—but do you think now we need to see that rebuilding and a recommitment to ensuring that we get back those numbers, but also provide those further employment opportunities?

Thanks, Heledd, for that. You will have seen the significant investment that I've outlined already in protecting the sector. I’ll come on to enhancement and enshrinement in my rest of my contribution, Llywydd. But what I am keen to do is work directly with the sector and the workforce of the sector to grow the sector in that way in the future. And that's why I'm very pleased and proud to have established an arts, creative and media sector social partnership forum. It met for the second time just yesterday, and that, no doubt, will strengthen the sector by collaborating with trade unions and employers.

Llywydd, if protection is about stability, enhancement is about reach, relevance and impact. World-leading cultural organisations are not defined only by excellence on the stage or in the galleries. They're defined by who they reach, who feels welcome and whose stories are told. We have invested just over £5.5 million over the past four years to support organisations in providing more equitable access to our national culture. This funding has enabled museums, archives, theatres, libraries and other cultural institutions to deepen and diversify the stories they tell, enrich the understanding of their collections, and ensure that the experiences they offer reflect the full breadth of Welsh communities.

We want cultural organisations that are rooted in their communities and that are open to all, regardless of background, geography or income. This means strengthening access for children and young people, as Jane Dodds referred to, supporting work in rural and post-industrial areas, and removing barriers that prevent people from participating in cultural life. And for me, Llywydd, this means that it is imperative that every working-class child in Wales is able to access culture in all its forms. It should not be the preserve of the middle and upper classes. And that's why we are focused on removing barriers to access for children and young people, spending around £0.5 million to support schemes through the Group for Education in Museums, Cadw, Amgueddfa Cymru, the Books Council of Wales and the Arts Council of Wales. We’ve provided funding for transport, tickets and even for backfilling teacher roles where necessary. If we take the Arts Council of Wales scheme, we focused specifically on reaching schools in poorer communities and learners who faced additional barriers to access. There have been over 25,000 visits as a direct result of this funding.

Llywydd, through our successful culture grants scheme for grass-roots organisations, the ones that John Griffiths pointed to in his remarks, we've supported more than 100 organisations across the country to access funding that strengthens their community-led cultural activity, builds local capacity and broadens opportunities for people to engage with culture in ways that resonate with their locality. That is the same ethos as Cadw’s work to widen access.

Will you take an intervention?

I will.

You've given a very detailed response to the argument. What I'd like to know is what is your analysis about why do you think we're at the bottom of the European league tables?

Well, I think, if you read the committee's report, that also doesn't quite give the clear picture, as you want to point out in this pre-election period. But, Llywydd, major—

Will you take an intervention?

From the Chair of the committee.

I'm happy to take a further intervention. I know they don't like listening to great investment in Mold, but—

It's the Chair of the committee.

—I'll take it again. I've said 'yes'.

Minister, thank you so much. I'm intervening, as Chair of the committee, just to say that those figures do very much add up, but I as an individual welcome what you are saying. These are all good-news stories. The argument, I suppose, we would be making is: think of all the extra investment that could be done with us being on parity with the European average, even. But I assure you that we do welcome what you are setting out; it's just how much more ambitious we could be.

Well, I'm grateful for that, and we always support ambition. I note the table the previous Member referred to doesn't include all of the investment the Government has made—over £200 million in investment in programmes through the Welsh language scheme, through the education scheme, through lots of different schemes. [Interruption.] I'll take one more intervention, Llywydd. I really have to get on.

I really appreciate your generosity with your interventions, Minister. But will you accept or acknowledge that part of the funding, like Theatr Clwyd, which you've mentioned, has actually received significant investment from the previous UK Conservative Government through levelling-up funding as well?

I will acknowledge from the Member the investment from the UK Government. I think it was £1 million, Llywydd, if I remember correctly. I thank Gareth Davies for bringing me back to Theatr Clwyd in Mold, because that brings me to the over £26 million that this Government committed to. It was a commitment we made in the manifesto in the 2021 Senedd elections, and I'm proud that we've delivered it in this Government. That's what you get when you vote Welsh Labour. Llywydd, we've seen investment in the football museum of Wales in Wrexham as well, with £9 million of Welsh Government investment since June 2023, £7.8 million in CELF, the dispersed contemporary art gallery.

Llywydd, I know time is pressing, but there was a third point of the Member's debate, and I've taken many interventions, so I hope to try and get through some of this. In Wales, we have a solid foundation to enshrinement, and that's the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. It also means enshrining culture, making sure we align with our cultural policy and wider national priorities, including the Welsh language, including economic development, including international engagement. Our organisations are not simply delivery bodies, they are partners in shaping Wales's future. It's their expertise and the connection to communities that are invaluable, and we must continue to involve them meaningfully in policy design, not just implementation.

And if I can, Llywydd, just reflect briefly on Wales's place in the world, our cultural organisations, as we all know in this place, are amongst our strongest ambassadors. They tell Wales's story internationally through touring, through collaboration and through co-production. Our investment of £767,000 in the Welsh National Opera demonstrates our commitment to protecting our nationally significant and internationally recognised organisations. And our cultural organisations also contribute to our soft power and our global reputation and economic resilience. We've seen this demonstrated all the way through the UEFA Euro 2025 women's football tournament in Switzerland, where sport and culture joined forces to showcase the talents of our people and the pride we have in our country, in our language and its values. Supporting that international dimension is not a luxury; it's an investment in Cymru's confidence and presence on the world stage.

So, in closing, Llywydd, in not bad timing, this Government remains committed to working with our organisations, with local government, with communities and with artists themselves to ensure that Wales's cultural life continues to flourish, not only for today's audiences but for generations yet to come. Diolch yn fawr.

The question—. No, there is no question at the end of that item.

We will now move to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move directly to our first vote. The votes this evening are on item 6, the Plaid Cymru debate on the rail network. I first call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Heledd Fychan. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions and 34 against. Therefore, the motion is not agreed.

The next vote will be on amendment 1, and, if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. Amendment 1, in the name of Jane Hutt. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 22, no abstentions and 24 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

The next vote is on amendment 2, tabled in the name of Paul Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 10, two abstentions and 34 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Therefore, both amendments and the motion have been rejected, so nothing is agreed under that item.

That concludes voting for this evening. We will now take a short break before we move to our Stage 3 proceedings. The bell will be rung five minutes before we reconvene.

We are now ready to begin our Stage 3 proceedings on the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill.

The first group of amendments relates to BSL: national adviser, advisory panel and complaints. Amendment 1 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Before speaking to the amendments, I declare that I'm a patron of COS, the Centre of Sign Sight Sound, the former North Wales Deaf Association, and also the chair of the cross-party group on deaf issues. I must also take this opportunity to thank the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice and Sioned Williams for the collaborative way they've approached this Stage 3 of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill. This really has been cross-party working of the highest order, and I'm extremely grateful to both of you for that.

During the passage of the Bill, there's been detailed consideration of whether there should be a requirement on the face of the Bill that the BSL adviser should be deaf. While I fully appreciate the benefits this could have, I've been clear throughout, based on the legal advice I've received and despite my desire to the contrary, that placing such a duty on the face of the Bill would potentially take the Bill outside the Senedd's legislative competence, which would risk losing this vital Bill completely. That is a risk I'm not prepared to take.

Amendment 12 instead therefore seeks to add two specific requirements onto the face of the Bill. Firstly, it will require Welsh Ministers to be satisfied, before appointing the BSL adviser, that the adviser

'has appropriate personal understanding of the experiences of BSL signers.'

The requirement for them to have lived experience or this lived experience, whilst stopping short of requiring the adviser to be required to be deaf on the face of the Bill, will add further assurance that the person understands on a personal level the experiences that BSL signers face on a daily basis. Ideally, they'll still be deaf.

Secondly, amendment 12 will also require Welsh Ministers to seek the advice of a BSL signer in the appointment process. This is set out in the amendment in its singular form only because this follows usual legal drafting style. However, the effect of this amendment will enable wider advice to be sought from BSL signers more generally. So, in reaching a view on whether the BSL adviser is able to communicate effectively in BSL and has the required personal experience, the views of the deaf community will be included.

Amendment 10 is linked to amendment 12. The purpose of amendment 10 is simply to leave out text from section 6 of the Bill, and amendment 12, which I've already covered, reinserts that text in an amended form within the Schedule to the Bill. The Bill already contains the Schedule, which makes further provision about the BSL adviser and advisory panel. The purpose of moving the text from section 6 into the Schedule is so that all of that further provision is contained in one place in the Bill, which I believe both strengthens and clarifies the drafting of the Bill. Members will also be aware that this makes no difference at all to the legal effect of the provision. Similarly, amendment 13 does not make any substantive change to the content of the Bill. This amendment, again, simply reinserts text into the appropriate place in the Schedule in line with the earlier amendments considered.

Finally, amendment 1 is a consequential amendment to take account of the fact that the provisions relating to the appointment of the BSL adviser have moved to the Bill’s Schedule. The inclusion of the requirement for the BSL adviser to have lived experience is a very important addition to the appointments process. I would therefore urge the Senedd to agree amendments 1, 10, 12 and 13, tabled in my name.

Turning now to amendments 14 and 15 in the name of Sioned Williams, these amendments are unrelated to the other amendments in this group. Amendments 14 and 15, as you will hear, seek to place a requirement on the face of the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to publish guidance on how BSL signers may complain about access to services provided by the Welsh Ministers or listed public bodies.

This is fundamentally the same as the amendment Sioned tabled at Stage 2, which I rejected. Although I support the intent of the amendment, my position on this has not changed. The Bill does not include a specific complaints procedure, and as such it would not be appropriate for the Bill to place a duty on Welsh Ministers to prepare and publish guidance on the appropriate route for BSL signers to make complaints.

The appropriate routes that should be taken are already set out in the specific complaints procedures of the Welsh Government and the listed public bodies. As I set out in the response to the Equality and Social Justice Committee’s Stage 1 report on this matter, my intention was to update the explanatory memorandum that accompanies the Bill to clarify the options available to complainants requiring recourse in instances where public services are failing to meet their duties under the Bill. I reiterated that intention when the committee debated Sioned’s amendments at Stage 2. The revised explanatory memorandum was published ahead of Stage 3 and now includes a stand‑alone section on the complaints processes.

For these reasons, I call on the Senedd to reject amendments 14 and 15 whilst respecting and supporting their intent. And again, I urge the Senedd to agree amendments 1, 10, 12 and 13 tabled in my name.

Plaid Cymru is pleased to contribute to Stage 3 of this Bill. I want to begin by thanking Mark Isherwood, of course, who's worked tirelessly over many years to develop this Bill. I'm really pleased, and we on these benches are really pleased, to see this Bill come forward before the Senedd, and also because we’ve been able to work so collaboratively on it with both you and the Welsh Government. It has felt quite a strange kind of Bill, because there hasn’t been much opposition between us at all on any of the provisions of the Bill. It has been a really great way to be able to co‑operate and work together on such an important and progressive Bill that the Senedd I’m sure will be proud to put into statute.

Plaid Cymru obviously continues to support the core aims of the Bill. I would also like to thank, in preparation for the debate today, obviously the legal advisers and researchers and clerks of the Equality and Social Justice Committee, of which I’m a member, but also Niamh Salkeld in the Plaid Cymru group staff team.

I really think this is a historic moment for Wales, and, of course, for deaf BSL signers specifically across our nation. It's a real opportunity to pass the most progressive piece of BSL legislation anywhere in the UK. I think although this Bill will help ensure that deaf BSL signers can access public services, its core aim really is about them having their language, BSL, which is an integral part of their identity and culture, both respected and recognised, and that decisions that affect them are shaped by the people who know best—the deaf BSL community themselves.

As well as improving the lives of deaf BSL signers, the Bill offers wider benefits, raising awareness amongst the whole population and promoting a greater understanding of the cultural and linguistic importance of BSL. This feels especially timely and relevant in a nation where we understand, value and recognise our multilingualism.

Turning to the amendments, as I said, we are pleased to have worked collaboratively with both Mark Isherwood and the Welsh Government on many of them. I think collectively, since Stage 2, we've managed to really strengthen the Bill by embedding genuine involvement, ensuring that key appointments reflect lived experience and giving the community real influence over strategy and decision making. I really feel strongly that central to this Bill must be the leadership, the promotion of the leadership and lived experience of deaf BSL signers themselves. Their expertise needs to guide every stage of its implementation: shaping the BSL guidance that public bodies will rely on, informing the Welsh Government's strategy and influencing how individual public bodies develop and deliver the BSL Bill. The passage of this Bill will mark the beginning of a long and important journey.

Moving to the amendments tabled in my name, amendment 14 is a consequential amendment to amendment 15, which, as Mark Isherwood said, is about complaints guidance and making sure that BSL users can access services and raise concerns when things go wrong. I appreciate that this has now been clarified in the explanatory memorandum, and I'm grateful for that, but I think that this came through so strongly in the evidence that we heard as a committee that I would feel better if this was placed on, and they would feel that its rightful place is on, the face of the Bill, because it would require Welsh Ministers to publish guidance on how BSL signers can make complaints about services provided by Welsh Ministers or listed public bodies, and, importantly, make sure that that guidance is available in BSL. It also ensures that Welsh Ministers must consult the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales before publishing the guidance or any revised version.

Turning to the amendments tabled in Mark Isherwood's name, on amendment 12, we're happy to support this amendment, which we've worked on collaboratively with both the Member and the Welsh Government, because it makes sure that the BSL adviser can communicate effectively in BSL and have a real understanding of the experience of deaf BSL signers. It makes sure that Ministers get advice from a BSL signer when deciding if somebody meets those criteria. It's really important, because the adviser will play such a central role in shaping the national BSL strategy. The person appointed needs the knowledge, the experience—the lived experience—and, crucially, the credibility to earn the trust of the community to make sure that their voices are heard. At the moment, as we heard, the Bill can't require that the adviser is deaf because of the constraints of the Equality Act 2010. Plaid Cymru believes strongly that Wales should have the power to make these kinds of decisions, for all the reasons that we've heard.

The children's commissioner, when she gave evidence, was very clear, both in what she said and in body language, that it was not about creating a parallel system, that children who use BSL have to be treated no differently to any other child whose rights need to be asserted and may involve the involvement of the children's commissioner. I am not interested, and never have been interested, in creating a parallel system for the handling of complaints. They need to be dealt with by all public bodies in the same way, regardless of which language is spoken.

However, it is disingenuous for any of us to think that the procedures for complaining by public bodies are accessible to BSL signers. Some, if not most of them, will not be fluent in reading either Welsh or English. Some BSL signers cannot even decipher a bus timetable. So, only visual communication guides to the different pathways for complaints by different public bodies will do it. I won't be supporting amendment 15. I hope that the explanatory memorandum is clear enough, and if it isn't, amendment 12 strengthens the role of the BSL adviser and the group of people who will support that person, in the advisory panel, as to exactly how you make complaints processes, which are difficult to understand regardless of which language you speak, clear through a visual mechanism. I will be supporting the other amendments tabled by Mark Isherwood.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by thanking Mark, and all colleagues? But Mark Isherwood, I really want to thank you and praise you for your integrity, your commitment and your passion, which has come through so strongly. It has been a real pleasure to work with you through this, because I think, as we've said and Sioned has said, we've worked together so well on this because we have worked with the deaf BSL signing community. We want to thank the deaf BSL signing community and stakeholders for their engagement.

This is really good, because you need scrutiny, you need challenge, and if we've got any power or influence, we have to respond. I think that we are looking to show that we can respond positively together in this Senedd, and with Welsh Government support. So, thank you to all of you who've been engaged in bringing this Bill to this stage. I've been very pleased to continue through the process to support the Bill, to continue to work collaboratively with Mark, and with Sioned Williams, to bring forward these Stage 3 amendments. I also would like to thank the committees for their role and their reports. This has all been important in terms of taking forward this important legislation. This is the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill. Won't we be proud of that when it's in legislation?

I'll turn now to the amendments in this group and set out the Welsh Government's position. When I do that, I will say that it has been remarkable and great, and it will happen again, I know, where our teams have all worked together—Mark's team, the team in the Commission, our team in the Welsh Government. Thanks to the Counsel General and the Cabinet Secretary for finance. Everyone has played a role in this.

I'm grateful to you, Mark, for outlining your amendments in this group. Amendment 12 strengthens the appointment provisions for the BSL adviser by ensuring relevant linguistic competence and lived experience are properly considered, which is in line with the aims of the Bill. Amendment 13 also ensures that the BSL adviser is consulted ahead of appointments to the assisting panel, supporting a more coherent governance approach. So, I support these amendments, along with amendment 1, which is consequential on amendment 12, and amendment 10, which improves clarity by moving provision on the BSL adviser into the Schedule. There's a lot in those amendments that really strengthens this Bill.

Thank you also, Sioned, for outlining your amendment 15 on publishing guidance on complaints, along with amendment 14, which is consequential. I recognise the importance of ensuring that BSL signers are able to raise complaints and access redress where services fall short. However, mechanisms for complaints already exist, including established routes through the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales. And following the Equality and Social Justice Committee report, and as has been stated already, Mark Isherwood agreed that the BSL Bill explanatory memorandum would be updated to include guidance relating to public complaints processes for BSL signers. That was an important response from Mark, and I committed to providing any information needed to support that update. So, I do believe that this already addresses the issue that this amendment sets out to achieve.

Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much. Thanks for all the contributions. I think Sioned Williams raised the issue around competence in the Equality Act, and you asked, I think, the Cabinet Secretary if she would wish to comment. I shall let the Cabinet Secretary off the hook on this one. The lead advice we got on this was from Senedd lawyers. They showed me the detailed elements of the law, and I can see why they’ve urged caution in this matter. Obviously, it's unlikely we'd be challenged, but if we did, given the timescales involved, the Bill would fall. So, again, it's a gamble I'm not prepared to wager on for that purpose.

The chair of the Equality and Social Justice Committee referred to evidence from the children's commissioner. Obviously, children should not be treated differently. All children and everyone else should have the right to access the complaints processes, for example. The problem that exists is the barriers that exist for people wishing to access the systems that are meant to be available to all. I think the purpose of the initial recommendation from the Equality and Social Justice Committee, which then Sioned rightly persisted with, was to help reduce or remove those barriers. Not only is this in the explanatory memorandum, but now we will need—[Interruption.] Sorry, Jane, yes.

Thank you so much for taking the intervention. As you know, I sit on the Equality and Social Justice Committee and supported Sioned in terms of this particular area—that is, about the system of complaints. You touched on it slightly there, which is that we have a huge community here who find it so difficult to access services. And, really, we should be doing everything in our power to protect them and enable them to access the services and complain through a system that's specific to them, that allows them and recognises their particular communication issues. So, would you not agree that this aspect, around a specific complaints procedure, does actually give them a specific, clear avenue and access? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

That is absolutely the intent of the explanatory memorandum, not only to clarify the options available to complainants. It's complicated. As we know, each local authority, each health board and otherwise have their own complaints processes, and if you are not used to navigating them, they're complicated, quite intimidating, especially if you get pushback from important people in charge. So, the intention of this—and, I'm sure, the intention of the committee recommendation and Sioned's amendment—is to ensure not only that people know how to access complaints processes, but that that's done in their first language, so that they can access that in a way that's understandable to them in the way that anybody else could access it through the medium of Welsh or English if they had complaints to make.

But, again, I thank Sioned and the committee. Had they not picked up on this, we may not have had the necessary amendment in the explanatory memorandum, which now addresses that gap that previously existed. So, on that basis, I again urge Members to agree amendments 1, 10, 12 and 13, but to reject 14 and 15 on the basis that the need that we've all identified is now addressed in that revised explanatory memorandum. Diolch yn fawr.

If amendment 1 is agreed to, amendment 14 falls. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will proceed to a vote. I call for a vote on amendment 1. Open the vote. In favour 35, no abstentions, and 11 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

Therefore, amendment 14 falls.

Group 2 of amendments is next. This second group of amendments relates to targets for teachers and assessors of BSL. Amendment 2 is the lead and only amendment in this group, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move and speak to the lead amendment.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. At Stage 2, the Bill was amended to add a specific requirement for the BSL strategy to include targets to increase or maintain the number of BSL translators and interpreters available for the purpose of exercising the functions flowing from this Bill. Amendment 2 builds on that and seeks to extend that requirement to include an additional target for the number of persons available for the purpose of teaching and assessing those BSL translators and interpreters.

As I set out at Stage 2, BSL translators and interpreters provide an absolutely essential service, and act as a vital link for deaf BSL signers to those providing key services. The expansion of the BSL interpreter and translator workforce would be necessary even without the additional duties that will be put in place should this Bill become law. However, for the expansion of that workforce to be successful, we also need people to be available to teach and assess those translators and interpreters. That is why I believe that this amendment is vital and goes hand in hand with provisions agreed at Stage 2. I believe that this represents another positive step forward and therefore call on the Senedd to agree amendment 2, noting again that this results from positive intervention by the relevant professional bodies to help us fill a gap that had been missed at first drafting. So, thank you to the Association of British Sign Language Teachers and Assessors for their intervention. Diolch yn fawr.

Plaid Cymru will be supporting this amendment tabled by Mark Isherwood. Improving BSL provision is not only about recognising the workforce we have today, but it's also about ensuring that this workforce can grow sustainably in the years ahead, because if we're serious about expanding access to British Sign Language across Wales, we need full understanding of the entire training pipeline. And that means not just knowing how many interpreters we currently have, but also whether we have the teaching, tutoring and assessment capacity required to train the next generation and the generation after that. At present, Wales has around 55 registered sign language interpreters, with only three able to interpret across BSL, Welsh and English. So, we must strengthen this provision, drawing on examples such as the 2006 BSL Futures scheme, funded by the Welsh Government, which aimed to increase the number of BSL interpreters and teachers in Wales, because without sufficient tutors and assessors, those workforce shortages will continue, regardless of our ambitions and the ambitions of this Bill. So, this amendment helps to futureproof the legislation by ensuring we have the data needed to identify our needs in training and accreditation. I think it's a really sensible and proportionate addition, and it reflects, again, the collaborative spirit in which this Bill has progressed. For these reasons, Plaid Cymru will be supporting the amendment.

I welcome this amendment, which does strengthen the importance of making sure that there are enough interpreters in the pipeline. To move from level 1, which is a complete beginner, to become a registered BSL interpreter at level 6, is obviously quite a long journey and could take several years, which is one of the reasons why the committee was urging Mark Isherwood and the Welsh Government to kick-start the process, because it is such a lengthy process. Anyway, we are where we are. It's going to take at least £9,000, according to the explanatory memorandum, and it's vital that we are not stalling the expectations that have been raised by this Bill for the absence of qualified interpreters. So, I hope that this amendment will ensure that this is constantly on the agenda, as well as seeking out where we are going to train these people, because my understanding is that, at the moment, there is nowhere in Wales that actually is qualified to train them and they have to go to England.

I will just be making one contribution to this Stage 3. I would like to place on record my thanks to Mark Isherwood for his perseverance and tenacity in bringing this Bill here today. And I would like to say how much of a privilege it was to sit on the Equality and Social Justice Committee, where we were joined by many users of BSL, through the stages of Stage 2. I certainly learned an incredible amount from that process, and it's something I will value and not forget in terms of my experiences here in the Senedd. This is a landmark piece of legislation, offering BSL signers across Wales the recognition, respect and visibility they deserve. And I'm glad that, as a Senedd, we have come together to strengthen and support this Bill.

This Bill is only as strong as its implementation, and frameworks need those foundations. One of the most important foundations this Bill still lacks is a sustainable, growing workforce of BSL interpreters and translators. So, I'm pleased to be able to support this amendment to ensure that we are futureproofing our BSL interpreter workforce, because without sufficient interpreters, the duties placed on public bodies risk becoming, as the National Deaf Children's Society warned, performative in nature—words on paper rather than real support for real people.

Many of those trained, as you've heard from Sioned, through the BSL Futures programme, did so nearly 20 years ago, and, respectfully, if I may say, may now be approaching the end of their translating and working lives. So, we are not just failing to grow the workforce, but we see it shrinking further at the very moment that we need it the most. I remember, in fact, our own committee clerk struggling to book interpreters for our scrutiny sessions. If a Senedd committee found that difficult, what does that say about the experience of a deaf person trying to attend a medical appointment or to engage with a public body? That is why I am pleased to support this amendment. By requiring the BSL strategy to set out not only the number of BSL translators and interpreters, but also the number of people available to teach, support and assess them, we begin to address the pipeline problem at its root. It is not enough to count the interpreters we have today; we must plan for the interpreters that we will need tomorrow.

So, I welcomed, in December, the Welsh Government's acceptance of the committee's recommendation to expand the interpreter workforce and the publication of the BSL route-map. It shows that the Welsh Government understands, at least in principle, that workforce planning must start with understanding what we actually have. Mapping is only the first step; identifying what we have is not the same as building what we need. The British Deaf Association has been clear that there are no shortcuts and has warned that fast-track approaches do not deliver quality. What works is structured long-term investment in training.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm grateful to Mark for explaining the purpose of this amendment and the contributions from the Equality and Social Justice Committee members, just showing how important your evidence was that was gained and how it's actually helped lead to this important amendment to strengthen the Bill. I can assure Jane Dodds that mapping is already under way.

The amendment sets out that the BSL strategy will not only include targets to increase or maintain the number of translators and interpreters available for the purposes of exercising the Welsh Ministers' and listed public bodies' functions, but also the number of teachers and assessors available to support those translators and interpreters. I agree that including this information will strengthen the evidence base for the strategy and support effective planning and mapping work to ensure it is possible to achieve future targets set for BSL translators and interpreters. So, this amendment supports practical delivery of the Bill's aims, and I support the amendment. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply.

Thank you very much indeed. Well, it seems there's unanimity of support for the purpose and intent of this and related matters in the Bill. As with all frameworks, they won't stand without foundations, and this is about putting those foundations in place for the future. I haven't, actually, unlike others, given credit and praise to BSL signers themselves, the deaf communities across Wales. Of course, it's thanks to them that we're here where we are now.

This journey for me began eight years ago—some of you have heard me say this before—at the Lend Me Your Ears annual conference at Bangor University, held up until the pandemic annually for deaf people in north Wales and families with deaf members in north Wales. I attended that. In 2018, the focus was on the Scottish legislation and the call from virtually every speaker, most of whom were deaf academics, for equivalent legislation here. So, it's thanks to them—I have to give the credit to the north Wales conference—that this, then, was brought down here and we started developing the all-Wales support that has led us to where we are today, and hopefully Stage 4 on the eleventh of next week. So, I'd be grateful if we could go to the vote, or, if there's unanimity, have confirmation of that.

The question is that amendment 2 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

We will now move on to group 3. The third group of amendments relates to data on the use of BSL and monitoring. Amendment 3 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendment in the group.

Diolch. Amendments 3 and 11 place requirements on Welsh Ministers to obtain information about the use of British Sign Language. Amendment 3 will require Ministers to set out what information about the use of BSL in Wales was obtained and considered for the purpose of preparing the strategy. The inclusion of this information will be important at that early stage, and will help in the understanding of how the strategy has been prepared.

Amendment 11 then requires Welsh Ministers, for the purpose of preparing their progress reports, to obtain appropriate information about the use of BSL in Wales on a sufficiently regular basis to enable them to assess progress. As the purpose of the reports under section 8 of the Bill is to assess the progress made in promoting and facilitating the use of BSL, it is vital that information on the use of BSL is obtained on a sufficiently regular basis. Otherwise, how can progress be meaningfully measured?

These amendments build on the amendment tabled at Stage 2 by Sioned Williams, an amendment that I thought had great merit. And, again, I thank Sioned for tabling those amendments and highlighting this issue. These amendments will now ensure, if passed, that information on the use of BSL is obtained both at the start of the process and on an ongoing basis. I therefore call on the Senedd to support amendments 3 and 11.

Plaid Cymru is pleased to support amendments 3 and 11, tabled by Mark Isherwood, on which, again, as you mentioned, we have worked constructively alongside him and Welsh Government. If this Bill is to deliver meaningful change, it must be underpinned by robust and policy-relevant data. As we've heard, understanding how many people use BSL and how they use it is fundamental to developing an effective and credible national BSL strategy and plans.

At present, the way BSL use is measured across England and Wales is limited. Around 22,000 people reported BSL as their 'main language' in the census, representing approximately 0.04 per cent of the population aged three and over. But that figure arises from a write-in response to a general language question. It doesn't capture those who use BSL regularly in everyday life, but identify English or Welsh as their main language. In other words, it risks significantly undercounting the community.

We can see this clearly when we look at Scotland, which introduced a dedicated census question in 2022, asking, 'Can you use British Sign Language?' That approach produced a dramatically different picture, with over 117,000 people reporting that they could use BSL. Only a small proportion of those individuals described it as their main language, highlighting how restrictive the main language framework can be, particularly for sign languages and multilingual communities.

Academic analysis has consistently shown that how census questions are framed shapes who gets counted. We've seen this, of course, haven't we, in regard to the Welsh language. A monolingual main language model doesn't reflect the linguistic reality of many deaf BSL signers. These amendments, therefore, I think open the door to improving how we gather data in Wales, as well as making sure that we do gather that data.

One obvious step would be to explore how the 2031 census could better measure BSL use, learning from approaches elsewhere and ensuring that data collected genuinely reflects lived experience. I think this also aligns with commitments already made in the Welsh Government's BSL route-map, which recognises the need to explore barriers to collecting and collating BSL data, and to assess models used across the UK and internationally.

So, it's important to say that, while these amendments are a very strong and welcome step, data on BSL use alone will not be sufficient. Developing a powerful and transformative BSL strategy will require a wider evidence base about the lives, experience and barriers faced by deaf BSL signers across Wales. For Plaid Cymru, this is about ensuring that the strategy is built on reality and not assumption, and these amendments, we believe, strengthen vastly the foundations of the Bill, and we're pleased to have worked collaboratively to support them.

This is the last time I'll be speaking, so I too would like to pay tribute to Mark Isherwood for his commitment and persistence in making sure that this Bill gets over the line.

I too have learned an enormous amount about BSL children and BSL adults, and I particularly want to thank Julie Doyle, who's on your screen, for explaining to me that the deaf children of deaf parents have exactly the same outcomes in terms of education as hearing children, because they are learning BSL when they are first born, whereas other children are learning some other language. Given that babies, hearing or not, have minimal oral language, it's also interesting to note that those who learn BSL because their parents are competent are also much calmer than those babies that have to shout or scream to get their views heard. So, there's going to be a steep learning curve for public services, particularly health and education, to ensure that we improve the outcomes for deaf children of hearing parents, both in enabling those parents to be given access to BSL as soon as the child is identified as being deaf—. And I was shocked to read in the explanatory memorandum that such parents have to pay—that means finding £9,000 on top of all the other complications of having a new baby and a new baby who is deaf. I feel that it'll be up to the next Senedd to address that particular problem. But the point is that we have to ensure that services are instantly available to the less than 2,000 children who are deaf with hearing parents, and that they are getting rapid support to ensure that they are speaking to their baby in sign language as soon as they realise they're not hearing the spoken word. So, I hope that that is absolutely clear. I just wanted to put that on record because it is for the future Senedd to sort that out.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Again, I'd like to thank Mark for bringing forward these amendments 3 and 11, and Sioned Williams for bringing forward a similar amendment at Stage 2. As has been said, these amendments would strengthen the reporting framework by ensuring Ministers have sufficiently regular information to assess progress and add transparency about the information gathered and considered when preparing the strategy. I agree this will strengthen confidence in the strategy and demonstrate that it is evidence led, and I support these amendments.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Thank you, and thank you again for the unanimity. I think you all make very pertinent points and justify again further the reasons why we need these amendments. I think, as both of you intimate, in the context of deaf children of hearing parents and vice versa, but also in the context of others, clearly most BSL signers are deaf BSL signers or their families, but there are many others too. There are deafblind tactile BSL users. There are people who are non-verbal, perhaps stroke survivors, and many others who will use BSL in full or in part to assist their language of communication, which may be missing from those statistics. People may not just identify with the question as it's put. Nonetheless, I'll be quiet. Let's go to the vote and hope we don't have to press buttons on this one either.

The question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 3 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The final group is 4. This fourth group relates to consultation and involvement. Amendment 4 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move and speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch. Amendments 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 are all tabled with the purpose of ensuring that representatives of BSL signers are involved in the process of preparing the BSL strategy and the BSL plans from the outset and are kept involved throughout that process. The term 'co-production' has not been used in the amendments because of advice I have received regarding the difficulty of legally defining that term. Clearly, that was disappointing for me, but I had to accept that advice. However, ensuring the co-production of the strategy and BSL plans is very much the intention of these amendments, and what is set out in the amendments is very much in line with the principles of co-production, which I have long championed. Co-production is underpinned by principles such as equality, diversity, mutual respect and, above all, shared power. In Wales, these principles are already embedded in frameworks like the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and its code of practice, which promote voice and control for individuals in shaping services that affect them. As we all know, however, we have to periodically remind certain local authorities of that, but that is what the existing 2014 legislation states.

Active listening is a key enabler of these principles. It helps shift the dynamic from 'We ask, you answer', to, 'We listen, we learn and we act together'. Co-production can play a valuable or even essential role in the development and delivery of public services. It goes further than consultation alone and would ensure that the deaf community was involved in the development of the key outputs from the Bill. That is why these amendments, with the emphasis on involving the deaf community from the start, are vital in ensuring the successful delivery of the BSL strategy and BSL plans.

At Stage 2, Sioned Williams tabled two amendments that related to the principles of co-production. So, I again thank Sioned for tabling those amendments and opening the debate about how co-production could be embedded within the implementation of the Bill. While I very much supported the principle of Sioned's amendments at Stage 2, I recognised that embedding co-production into the BSL Bill would need further consideration to ensure that it worked in the best way possible for the deaf community, was compliant with legal terminology and did not have any unintended consequences for the overall delivery of the Bill. I'm therefore extremely grateful again to the Cabinet Secretary and to Sioned Williams for engaging with me during Stage 3 to explore options for appropriate amendments and for working with me in preparing the amendments we see before us now. If these amendments are agreed today, it will ensure that the deaf community is involved in the development of the Bill's key provisions, not just consulted on them after those provisions have been drafted by others. I therefore urge the Senedd to agree amendments 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9. Diolch yn fawr.

Plaid Cymru is pleased to support all the amendments tabled by Mark Isherwood in this group, which, as he said, address the importance and nature of co-production. Again, we've worked so constructively on this, haven't we, together with him and, of course, the Welsh Government. Replacing the duty to consult with a duty to involve may look like a small change on paper, but, in practice, I think it's a really significant one, because consultation can sometimes be a one-off exercise. Involvement suggests something deeper and ongoing—a genuine partnership with the deaf BSL community in shaping decisions that affect them. And I think that shift really matters.

We should be honest as well about that meaningful involvement of deaf BSL signers. This will be something that should be new for many public bodies. That's why clear, practical guidance from the Government will be so important to make sure this duty is delivered well and not treated as a tick-box exercise. And if we are serious about respect and inclusion, that needs to happen in the language of the community concerned. Deaf BSL signers bring lived experience, expertise and commitment, and, when they are genuinely involved, policies and services will be stronger as a result.

Turning to amendment 6, as well as amendment 9, again, we've worked constructively on these with both the Member and Welsh Government, and it builds on earlier amendments, as we heard, around involvement and gives real substance to what that involvement should look like in practice. It's about making sure that deaf BSL signers themselves are directly involved in shaping the national BSL strategy, not as an afterthought, but from the very beginning and throughout the process. It sets out clearly what that meaningful involvement should include, giving people the opportunity to make representations at the start of the process, seeking their views at a formative stage before positions are fixed, and ensuring that they are properly informed and given enough time to respond. That, I think, moves us beyond vague language and commitments into something far more concrete. Because, if this strategy is going to be effective and credible, it has to reflect the lived experience of the people it is meant to support. Deaf BSL signers bring that insight and bring that expertise and a deep understanding of the barriers they face, and so their voices must be central and not peripheral. I think this amendment strengthens the Bill by making that expectation explicit, while also giving clarity to Ministers and reassurance to the deaf BSL community that their involvement will be structured and meaningful and ongoing.

As this is my final contribution to the debate today, I also want to end by saying it's been a really important exercise for me as an elected representative and as a legislator to be involved in the passage of this forward-looking and important Bill, because it has brought home to me, as you've heard, and my fellow committee members, in the most literal way possible, as we sat and discussed for many hours with deaf BSL signers, the barriers and opportunities that this Bill can address. The whole process of scrutiny, from beginning to end, helped us understand what it means when people who are hearing and who cannot sign are the ones who are in the roles that can effect change for those whose language and lived experience they do not share, and why that needs to change.

I would also like to begin by thanking all those who've worked tirelessly campaigning for the recognition of British Sign Language. As Sioned Williams has just said, I've also learned so much by talking to the members of the deaf community with regard to this Bill. Felly, diolch yn fawr to all of you. It's right also that we pay specific tribute to Mark Isherwood today. Not only is passing a Member's Bill a feat in itself—you will know, Mark, because you've sat through all of them, that this is only the fifth Member's Bill in the history of Welsh devolution. Not only is that such a feat, but it's a piece of legislation that will make a huge difference to the deaf community in Wales. I know that, because I've spoken to members of the deaf community in Cardiff, and they're so grateful for your work picking this up.

These amendments in this group are much needed to ensure that the lived experience of the BSL community is placed at the heart of all future decisions relating to their language. We must not fall into the trap of telling signers what's best for them. These amendments help strengthen their position in Wales through co-operation and communication on any future BSL policy decisions. BSL, as others have said, much like Welsh, comes with its own culture, community and a sense of pride. This Bill is our opportunity to give BSL the space it needs to stand alongside our other national languages with equal status, equal respect and equal opportunity. This is our chance to choose communication over confusion, because that is what BSL is all about. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you, again, to Mark for bringing forward this and explaining, also, the rationale for these amendments on the involvement of BSL signers. It's interesting. We've learnt a lot—the Welsh Government's learnt a lot—over the years in terms of our commitment to co-production, and co-production in action. I believe we learnt a lot in how we developed our BSL route-map. We engaged with the deaf BSL signing community in the development of that route-map, which was published on the Welsh Government website on 12 February—co-production in action.

Moving from using the word 'consult' to 'involve' is a real step, a really important step, forward. It's set out in amendments 5 and 8. It's consistent with the intention that there should be engagement on the relevant issues. And amendments 6 and 9 make it clear how BSL signers will be involved from the beginning of the process of preparing the BSL strategy by Welsh Ministers and BSL plans by listed public bodies. And that word is important at the beginning of the strategy, and then throughout the process, which I support in relation to this Bill.

So, in my final words in supporting this group of amendments, can I once more thank all those who have engaged in every step of the way with the development of this BSL Bill in a very co-productive way, led by Mark Isherwood? I am so glad that we've been able to back this as a Welsh Government and that we've got this collaboration across the Chamber to back Mark's Bill. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Thank you, I'll be as succinct as I can. I know that there are other events running alongside. Thank you for all those kind comments. For what appear to be quite simple amendments, it involved a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and discussion over what words we could and could not use. So, thanks to everyone involved in that. And, particularly, may I just give credit—I think they're sitting in the gallery—to the Senedd Bill team, without whom all of this would have been impossible? They've been phenomenal. And, of course, although I don't know if they're in the gallery, but, obviously, they work closely with the Welsh Government lawyers as well, so thanks to them also. I'm not sure if they're with us, but no doubt they'll get the message.

To me, this is perhaps one of the most important sets of amendments relating to this Bill, because, if we don't involve people, if we don't co-produce with people, if we don't, to use a metaphor, see the world through their eyes or live the lives they live, we will build in, unintentionally, the barriers that disable them, which will also end up costing a lot more for public bodies and Governments in getting it wrong and having to put it right, or then having to service the crises that people could have avoided but end up living in because of the failure to design out the barriers that they encounter from the outset. So, that's the purpose and intention of these amendments. So far, there appears to be full support for them, and therefore I'd be grateful if we could go to the vote, or, hopefully, again, confirmation that we don't actually need a vote on this.

The question is that amendment 4 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 4 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Mark, amendment 5.

Do you move amendment 5?

It's moved.

The question is that amendment 5 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 5 is agreed.

Mark, amendment 7—amendment 6, sorry.

Move.

The question is that amendment 6 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 6 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Mark, now amendment 7.

Move.

The question is that amendment 7 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 7 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Mark, amendment 8.

Move.

The question is that amendment 8 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 8 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Mark, amendment 9.

I move.

The question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 9 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 10, Mark.

Move.

The question is that amendment 10 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 10 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 12, Mark.

I move.

The question is that amendment 12 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 12 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Amendment 13, Mark.

Move.

The question is that amendment 13 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 13 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Mark, amendment 11. Amendment 11.

I can't hear.

Eleven.

Move.

Thank you.

The question is that amendment 11 be agreed to. Does any Member object? No. Amendment 11 is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Sioned, amendment 15.

Move.

The question is that amendment 15 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore move to a vote. I call for a vote on amendment 15. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 14, no abstentions, and 32 against. Therefore, amendment 15 is not agreed.

We have reached the end of our Stage 3 consideration of the British Sign Language (Wales) Bill. I declare that all sections and Schedules to the Bill are deemed agreed. And that concludes Stage 3 proceedings.

And it brings our proceedings to a close for today.