Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee

Can I welcome the Lady Chief Justice, and can I invite you to make an opening statement, before turning to questions?

Prynhawn da. Thank you for inviting me to join you today. It's always good to be here in Wales. I think that you may know that my family has strong historic connections with Cardiff and Glamorgan, in particular. And Wales has, of course, produced some of my closest judicial colleagues: think of Lord Thomas, my immediate predecessor but one; Lord Lloyd-Jones, from the Supreme Court, and presently president of the Welsh law council and on the committee on Wales on our judges' council; and the recently retired Lady Justice Nicola Davies, who is now chancellor at Aberystwyth.

Today's constructive engagement with the Executive and the Senedd as a whole, I think, is a hallmark of present arrangements. I've met the First Minister and, indeed, will be meeting her again later this week, the Counsel General, who I've seen, actually, here and abroad, and the Llywydd. Today's dialogue, always respecting judicial independence, I think strengthens mutual understanding and, importantly, ensures visibility of the judicial work that we carry out in Wales.

Chair, I wanted to really divide my remarks into two themes: first, the distinct Welsh identity of the administration of justice within the shared legal jurisdiction of England and Wales, and secondly, to underscore that although Wales faces the same pressures as the wider system, I believe that Wales is well served under present arrangements. As you all know, I have no place to debate policy matters, and my focus will be confined to operational issues for reasons that we all understand.

So, to my first theme: the distinct Welsh identity of the administration of justice in Wales. Wales's legal identity is shaped by its ancient heritage but also modern devolution, characterised by growing legislative powers, evolving Welsh law and a judiciary with a strong Welsh identity, a strong sense of Welsh collegiality, and a really strong sense of public service for the Welsh people. This culture of service for Wales is supported by a number of different strands, but including the Association of Judges of Wales, with judges from both devolved and non-devolved jurisdictions, presided over, until very recently, by Lord Lloyd-Jones, and the Judges' Council Committee for Wales I've already mentioned, and I meet regularly with that committee. It provides a dedicated forum that ensures that Welsh needs are at the heart of judicial governance. We have a senior judge for Wales, in the shape of Lord Justice Lewis. Here in Wales, we have three presiding judges. They work closely with resident and designated judges, with the Welsh language liaison judges—we have two of them—and with leadership colleagues across the board in the non-devolved and also devolved tribunals. This is an architecture that allows issues relating to Wales to surface and, hopefully, be resolved quickly. It strengthens relationships between the His Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service and the professions, and ensures that Wales's distinct considerations—and I'm thinking particularly here of language and local access—are addressed in everyday decision making.

May I say, Chair, an early word about local justice and court geography? Accessibility is a fundamental principle. Wales has seen significant changes to its court estate over the last decade, including closures in some rural and predominantly Welsh-speaking areas. The result is that some parties and witnesses must travel far to get to court, and sometimes with limited public transport. These realities reinforce why the long-standing policy that Welsh cases should be heard here in Wales is so important, because we know that justice is most effective when it is local, linguistically accessible and delivered by judges who understand Welsh law, Welsh language and the communities they serve. I can assure you that the policy that Welsh cases should be heard here in Wales is given effect in practice at every level in our courts. So, the administrative court sits throughout Wales as required so that public law cases are heard locally. The Court of Appeal in both civil and crime sits regularly in Wales; I am, in fact, sitting here tomorrow. This is, I think, important both symbolically and also, obviously, operationally for the Welsh legal community and for public confidence.

There's a separate issue related to estates that I would like to mention upfront, and it may be something we mention again later. A modern, reliable court estate is foundational to access to justice. There is, I believe, an overwhelming operational case for a new civil justice centre in Cardiff—a fit-for-purpose building bringing together civil, family, public law and tribunal work. Lord Thomas warned back in 2019 that the then facilities, the still current facilities, were,

'unfit for purpose. The capital city of Wales needs a court building suited to the trial of civil, administrative law and family cases...the current position in Cardiff is untenable.'

That was 2019, this is 2026; things have not changed. The delivery of a modern centre will require collaboration—something that we here in Wales are particularly good at—between the judiciary, HMCTS, the Welsh Government, local authorities and the professions, and I want to reassure you that the judiciary stands ready to play its part. I would also like to acknowledge the enormous contribution of the Counsel General, without whose drive, commitment and vision we would not be making the progress in identifying potential sites for such a centre. She has been fantastic in her support for the project and, as I say, her drive and commitment.

Within the shared framework of a single legal jurisdiction, as I've said, the Senedd has developed a growing and important body of law in devolved areas—so, housing, education, health, social care, planning, the environment, infrastructure and agriculture. Housing law is a clear example of this, perhaps most notably the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, and I know that the Senedd's ongoing work with the Law Commission to codify planning and agricultural law further consolidates what I always describe as a recognisably Welsh statute book.

I think delivery on the ground really matters here. HMCTS Wales, represented this afternoon here in this room, supports the use of Welsh through the amazing Welsh language unit in Caernarfon. The unit provides simultaneous translation and supports bilingual documentation. For those of you who may be interested, you will have seen a real increase in the amount of bilingual documentation now available. My annual report has been provided in Welsh every year since my appointment, the Leveson report appears in Welsh, and my main messages are always translated into Welsh as well as being in English, to identify but a few examples.

But I think it may be of interest to you, Chair, and the committee as a whole, to know that we are trying to build a clearer picture of day-to-day Welsh usage in our courts and tribunals. So, there was a recent one-week survey in the civil and family courts in Wales and in crime. In civil and family, Welsh was spoken substantively—so, that's not greetings and oaths, but substantively—in about 8 per cent of recorded hearings. That's the equivalent of about 1,400 hearings a year. This sort of evidence helps us to plan judicial and interpreter capacity wherever it is most needed. It's an area, obviously, as well, where we have a keen interest in looking at artificial intelligence and developing technologies to support us.

Ensuring that we have sufficient Welsh language capacity, of course, requires thoughtful planning in appointments and training. This last year, we have agreed a new approach with the Judicial Appointments Commission, distinguishing three categories of role: no Welsh requirement, conversational Welsh and proficient Welsh. This system allows us to recruit excellent judges who already possess Welsh, but who also may have the capacity to improve their Welsh proficiency so that they can, in due course, conduct proceedings entirely in Welsh.

We're building this capacity in practice. In Wales, circuit judges with Welsh language skills now stand at around 48 per cent. In the magistracy, Welsh-speaking capacity varies by area, but in north-west Wales, it's 50 per cent, in Carmarthenshire, it's 34 per cent, in Ceredigion and Pembrokeshire, it's 17 per cent, north central Wales, 18 per cent, mid Wales, 5 per cent, Cardiff, 5 per cent, and Gwent, 3 per cent. Across Wales as a whole, 11 per cent of magistrates are Welsh speaking. This sort of data helps us to focus on training and targeted recruitment.

As I've mentioned, we are really trying to improve ways of improving transparency and linguistic accessibility across the board, and that includes in the publication of judgments. We've had some recent important Welsh cases, including in sensitive jurisdictions, where the judgments have been published bilingually.

Briefly, then, to my second theme: how is Wales served under the present arrangements? Well, like the rest of the jurisdiction, Wales faces pressures—staffing, retention, losing legal advisers, the condition of the estate, increasing case complexity, and so on. But, actually, the Welsh picture remains one of strong performance, practical innovation, supported by this close collaboration that I've been talking about between the judiciary, HMCTS Wales, Welsh Government officials, and constructive engagement across the board.

Thank you very much for that introduction. We've got a number of questions for you. I'm sure you're going to say at least to some of them, 'I've already answered that in the introductory remarks.' There's no problem for us with you saying that, but you may also want to add things to what you said in your introductory remarks in answer to some of the questions. I will go first. How would you assess the overall effectiveness of the judiciary in Wales, and where do you see the most pressing areas for improvement?

I think the challenges for Wales are well recognised. Foremost amongst them is ensuring that the justice system serves the whole of Wales, including its rural and remote communities. That, of course, is not a challenge unique to justice; it's one that you share with healthcare and other essential public services. But I think at the same time, for reasons that I have touched on, Wales offers real opportunities in the justice sector. Those opportunities arise from its size, its constitutional landscape and the willingness of its institutions to work together. I think the capacity for genuine collaborative work across the devolved and non-devolved parts of the justice system is a very striking feature.

As I mentioned, the Association of Judges of Wales now includes judges sitting in devolved jurisdictions. The involvement of the magistracy is another good example, and the working in partnership for the pilots that I've been talking about. Somehow, it is the size of Wales, the fact that it isn't as big and spread out as England, that enables it to deliver on the ground. Talking to representatives from HMCTS Wales, they will know every court centre inside out, they will know every judge by face and name. That is something that you can achieve here that you cannot achieve necessarily elsewhere. I think that the size and the layout can actually be a strength. I think, therefore, that the challenges are, as I say, the topography, to an extent, but also, with all of that, real opportunities.

Alun.

Thank you very much for that, Lady Carr. I was interested in two things that you said in your introductory remarks. You quoted Lord Thomas in his analysis of the Cardiff centre back in 2019. The fact that, coming up to seven years later, we're in the same position demonstrates that the systems we have don't work or that Wales is an afterthought. But it's a real failure, however you want to describe it. I'd be interested in your view as to why it's a failure, why are we still, seven years later, debating and discussing the same issues.

Secondly, in both the first and the second theme, you talked at length about the importance of having local access to judges who understand local cultures and the rest of it, the ability to seek justice in our different communities and the ability for judges to understand the legal framework here in Wales. That's all pretty basic stuff, isn't it? Every other jurisdiction would take that for granted. I can't imagine somebody in your position making that speech in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland, understanding the basic legal framework in which you're operating. What that tells me is that Lord Thomas was not only right about the Cardiff centre, but he was right about the jurisdiction as well—[Interruption.] We don't want to go into that—

I certainly can't go into devolution, but to be clear, when it comes to the training aspect—

But it's a real failure, though, isn't it, if the jurisdiction of England and Wales has somebody in your position, after however many centuries there have been, making the point that judges need to understand the legal framework.

Let's take it in stages. If I can take your second point first, all judges in England and Wales need to be trained on English and Welsh laws. There is nothing unusual about judges being trained in Welsh law any more than it is that English judges are trained in English law. The purpose of highlighting the training was to give reassurance, as there is fresh legislation coming in through the Senedd that is Wales specific, that that is adequately dealt with and there is training for that. So, there's nothing unusual about Welsh judges being trained in Welsh law any more than English judges being trained in English law. There is training across the board all the time.

Turning to your first point, obviously it's about money. It's about having the money to invest in a proper fit-for-purpose estate. I suspect that it has also been a question of will across the board. In order to find the solution here in Cardiff, I think that everybody would agree that what we need is cross-governmental collaboration, collaboration with the professions, some creative thinking about investment between the Governments, finding the right site and reaching the right terms. I can't tell you why it has taken so long, but what I can tell you is that there is a fresh sense of energy around the issue. I couldn't agree more with you that it is long overdue. It's something I've been saying since my very first appearance—

Well, I said it was a failure. I didn't say that it was overdue, I said that it was a failure.

Well, it's obviously disappointing. 'Failure' is a word that I—. It wouldn't be for me to say. That's the way that I would answer that. I would certainly say that those of you who were around in October 2023 can confirm that, with my very first breath, I said at the Legal Wales conference that this has to be a priority.

Thank you. How do you engage with the Welsh and UK Governments to improve the delivery of the justice system in Wales?

Sorry, could you repeat that, please?

My voice is going as well. How do you engage with the Welsh and UK Governments to improve the delivery of the justice system in Wales?

I go about that externally with direct engagement, as you know, with the Lord Chancellor, with the First Minister, and direct engagement, when I make the case—I hope effectively—for investment in the justice system, the rule of law and all of that. I think a very effective way of making the case and working with Government is business as usual—maintaining public confidence by sitting in the cases and being as visible as I possibly can. Today might be seen as a good example of that.

I think it's also important to identify the invitations to MPs to visit courts, to encourage MPs across the board to engage more with the justice system and learn and find out as much as possible about it. So, I think there are many levels. Obviously on a direct level, I as Lady Chief Justice will have direct engagement, but then we have engagement across the board with Ministers, and I hope I am seen as somebody who is accessible and ready and willing to give information and share information whenever I'm called upon.

Thank you very much. Finally from me, what progress is being made in implementing the 'one judiciary' reforms in Wales, and what impacts have you seen so far?

'One judiciary' has a number of different strands to it. The most obvious strand is bringing the work of the courts and tribunals together and increasing a collaborative atmosphere between judges working in the tribunals and judges working in the courts. Wales is lucky because many of the court centres involve both jurisdictions sitting together, and so it's very easy for the judges to come together. It's less easy in other places, in England in particular. But at the heart of 'one judiciary' as well lies the question of flexible cross-deployment—so, being able to make better use of the judges we have in our systems. Many of the judges who sit in your devolved jurisdictions also sit in non-devolved jurisdictions, and that's a very good way of fostering 'one judiciary' and getting the judiciary to feel as if it is one body, not a segregated or divided organisation. But beyond the actual day-to-day stuff and the cross-deployment, it is a question of culture. It's bringing everybody in together and fostering a really inclusive culture within the judiciary.

Thank you very much. Adam Price.

Good afternoon. We're all aware, of course, of the general backlog that is typical of the criminal cases across England and Wales at present, but to what extent is the situation in Wales better, worse, or is it broadly similar to what we see across England and Wales?

Thank you for your question. On the backlogs across England and Wales, obviously you read the newspapers; they are at an all-time high and a matter of real concern. Wales is a strong performer nationally. You have got—we have got—shorter waiting times, higher trial effectiveness and strong operational delivery. Your open case load here in Wales is just under 3,000. We often talk about numbers of backlogs, but actually, timeliness is probably a more important matrix for you. In terms of timeliness, the average waiting time here in Wales from case receipt to first main hearing is 15.9 weeks. If you take England and Wales as a whole, it's 24.2 weeks. So, you are doing a lot better here.

In the magistrates' court, the ineffective trials rate—that's the rate at which trials collapse—across the nation is 23 per cent. Here in Wales, it's 10 per cent. Going back to the Crown Court, the backlog in all of Wales—this is a statistic that caught my eye—is less than the backlog in one of our largest London Crown Courts. In Snaresbrook, the open case load is actually bigger than the entire open case load in Wales. So, the news is relatively positive in the Crown Court, and in the magistrates' court in particular.

It's very encouraging to hear about those aspects in which Wales is doing so well. Do you attribute those more positive outcomes, compared to England, to the characteristics that you mentioned earlier on—that, in Wales, due to its nature, information flows more rapidly et cetera?

Yes, I think it is the esprit de corps. I feel great national pride amongst the Welsh judges. They're quite a competitive lot, and they take great national pride in their work. There is a particularly strong relationship, I feel, between the judges and HMCTS Wales—so, that is His Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service, who provide the support operationally on the ground. I think it is that relationship—. If I had to single one thing out, I think that's what works particularly well and can claim the greatest credit for this very strong performance.

I know that you may not want to go into policy areas, but, of course, those of us in favour of devolution would use this as further evidence of the potential that devolving this would represent. Just in terms of drilling down into the statistics some more, are there any comparable areas in terms of where Wales is doing worse overall than in England? Are there parts of Wales, are there specific courts, where there's a more difficult situation for various reasons, perhaps relating to the estate or staffing et cetera, or is there a variety of issues, perhaps?

I think that it would be mainly the estates problems that are particularly bad in certain areas. There is a real accessibility problem in Wales. There's a lot of good work going on in terms of individual projects, but I think what HMCTS Wales is undertaking, what it needs to undertake, is a comprehensive organisation-wide approach to address the estate as a whole. So, there are a number of, as I say—. You probably won't be interested in the detail, but we've got new heating and cooling systems in Port Talbot; we've got a new lighting system in Swansea; heating and cooling systems in Newport, civil and family, and various bits of redecoration and recarpeting. But, actually, there are some fundamental problems. You've got very, very old lifts in nearly all of the buildings—I see a nod from the Chair—and they're very expensive and very difficult to repair and maintain. So, I think accessibility is a real problem.

Although—according to the statistics that you've shared with us—the situation in some aspects is relatively better in Wales, would you accept that that backlog in general has been increasing in Wales, as it has been increasing in England also, and so it's more of a problem now than it was previously? Could you tell us what are the most significant consequences of that, the consequences of those backlogs, for victims, for witnesses, for defendants and the wider operation of the justice system in Wales?

Yes, I think I'm on record as having spoken many times about the consequences. There are obvious, immediate consequences in terms of day-to-day living for complainants and defendants who have to wait years for justice in some cases, and witnesses as well, where they are involved. But there are knock-on consequences, for example, in terms of efficiency, because a defendant who knows that he or she is not facing trial for many years may decide to plead not guilty. There will be no incentive, with the prospect of an imminent trial, to, as it were, consider whether really or not that is going to be the long-term situation. There's also, obviously, a massive impact on efficiencies as well as to the real day-to-day lived experience of those directly involved, but, of course, also every delay—delays of years—affects the quality of justice, because memories fade and these are by definition cases where memories are likely to be very important. And also consequences in terms of increased cost, because cases that should come on, that are prepared and ready to be presented, that go off for a year will then have to be re-prepared by the lawyers and others involved. So, there are all of those obvious consequences, and then, if you want to travel out the consequences, consequences for the rule of law, consequences for public confidence, also consequences on the health services, on the economy, because the more people are impacted by delays in this sort of jurisdiction, the less likely they are to be effective at work, to look after themselves et cetera et cetera. So, it does travel out and, I think, have a ripple effect in many, many, many different areas.

Do we have any figures for the victims, for example, in terms of the effect of that backlog on the tendency to pull out of criminal cases? Also, you referred earlier to the record in Wales and how it is better in terms of ineffective cases—those that fail due to various reasons. But is that a worsening picture also due to that pressure of the backlog?

Yes, in answer to your question, I don't have a statistic for you on the victim attrition rate, but I think we can all see it happening. Clearly, the longer a victim has to wait, there will be those who just can't face it anymore and do withdraw, and that is, as you rightly point out, a serious problem. In terms of the ineffective trial rate that I gave you in the magistrates’ court, that is actually not due to victim attrition rate, that is due to prosecution not being ready, the defendant not being delivered to the right court, illness and so on and so forth. So, the statistic I gave you for the ineffective trial rate in the magistrates’ court was not related, I think, to victim attrition, rather related to the other reasons why trials are not effective on the day that they should be.

But is there still a broader connection between that backlog and the number of ineffective trials?

No, I don't think so, except in the way that I describe, which is that, the longer the wait, the less likely a defendant is to perhaps decide whether or not it should be a guilty plea that should be entered, particularly in the sort of cases you may be thinking about, in the what we call the RASSO cases, the rape and serious sex offences cases, where long delays take place in particular because a defendant will not be in custody, and that is where we see victim attrition really come into play.

Can we turn, therefore, to how we improve the situation? If you only had one of these in Wales next year—more sitting days, more judicial appointments or more administrative staff—which would you choose, and which do you think would be most effective?

That's a fantastic question. Can I not have all three, please? [Laughter.] We must be allowed to sit to maximum capacity. So, we must be allowed to sit with unlimited capacity and days. And we must have not only the right numbers of staff, but we must have the experienced staff. So, in some areas, we are losing, as you know, for example, legal advisers—who are absolutely critical to the work of the magistrates—losing them to higher paid positions in other parts of Government, the Crown Prosecution Service. And so we train up these brilliant young people, who, after two years of training, then go to a different part of the organisation. That is a real challenge for us, the recruitment and retention of the right level of experienced staff. So, if you really, really asked me to choose, I'd go for more sitting days. But it's a pretty close run between more sitting days and more administrative staff. Those would be my top two.

Just to stay on that point for a moment then, how has that decision across England and Wales in terms of that maximum number of sitting days affected Wales? Have there been cases where the courts in Wales have failed to sit due to Wales, to all intents and purposes, having run out of funded sitting days?

Yes, I don't know the chapter and verse on that, and if I may, Chair, I'd like to see if I can get Mr Price the relevant information on that.

Can you send the clerks a note on it, please?

Yes, I think that would be very helpful, because I don't know what the numbers are. I certainly know, in London in particular, the cap on sitting days has had a very real effect. A lot of it depends on the listing profile and the listing processes, and I just don't have data at my fingertips on how many cases may have been affected here in Wales. But, yes.

Just in terms of recruitment, are there challenges that are specific to Wales in terms of recruitment of judges—full-time judges and judges who are paid through fees—and to what extent is that movement towards—I'm not sure what the term is; I'm not sure if I know the word in English or in Welsh—cross-deployment between the courts and the tribunals—? How has that helped Wales in terms of recruitment?

Thank you. So, I think that one of the big advantages at the moment is the ability for Wales to have access to the entire English judiciary, as well as the Welsh judiciary. Any judge of England and Wales can sit in England or Wales by definition, so there is this great breadth and depth of opportunity and access here in Wales to all judges in England and Wales, and that, I think, is a massive advantage.

In terms of issues relating to recruitment, I'm unaware of any difficulties particularly relating to recruitment here. As I explained in my opening remarks, we are modernising the recruitment system in terms of identifying judges with the three levels of Welsh language, and to identify where in Wales Welsh language speaking judges are going to be most useful, to have a more targeted and more effective approach to that. There are some competitions where we are looking for judges who must have full Welsh proficiency. That may be a limiting factor in terms of the available pool, but I'm not aware of any particular recruitment difficulties.

Alun Davies, I'm sure, will come back to this question relating to the Welsh language in the system, but, finally from me, could you tell us broadly how the proposed criminal court reforms and sentencing changes by the UK Government could influence the efforts to reduce the backlog that we've been discussing?

So, the sentencing changes, which are now in the Sentencing Act 2026, which has passed, are, I think, primarily directed at alleviating pressure on the prisons rather than at alleviating the backlogs. So, the changes to sentencing—having longer suspended sentences and so and so forth—are really aimed and targeted more at prison population issues than backlog issues.

The criminal court reforms under Sir Brian Leveson that have been put forward, I think have yet to be presented to the House and have yet to go through, so we don't know precisely what shape the reforms will take and quite where lines will be drawn. So, things are very much up in the air. I know that HMCTS Wales has been looking at the Welsh estate to identify, for example, rooms that could be used for non-jury trials, if that's where we end up. But, at the moment, we are, I'm afraid—. Well, I am afraid, slightly in suspended animation. We've been waiting a long time. We just need to be told what Parliament's will is, and we will then comply with the legislation as it is enacted and do our level best to reduce the backlogs. Every single criminal judge in the magistrates' courts and the Crown Courts worries about these backlogs. We care about them and we want to get them down as fast as possible. But, ultimately, it will be for Parliament to decide what reforms go through and then for us to act on the will of Parliament.

Thank you.

Diolch. Mark Isherwood. He's online.

Yes.

Mark.

Good afternoon. If I could just ask a supplementary first, just following on some of the earlier questions. Views are often expressed by Members of the Senedd over why Wales has consistently had a higher imprisonment rate than England. Obviously, you can't comment on the devolution specifically or otherwise, but from a sentencing or judiciary viewpoint, do you have any explanation for that?

No. We all apply the same law in the same way. I wasn't actually aware that there were higher imprisonment rates in Wales. That's right, is it?

It's said quite often.

Members often state there are. I've just had a—. According to AI, there are. [Laughter.] And I've certainly seen statistics periodically indicating that was the case.

Right.

Members have expressed views on that. I don't know how evidence based those are, and I'm just wondering if you had any—

I'm afraid, I don't. I may be better informed after I've been to Cardiff Crown Court tomorrow.

Okay, thank you. Well, if I move on to the judicial estate, you've already made some reference to this. You rightly said or emphasised the necessity of a modern foundational estate, you referred to the current estate being unfit for purpose and particularly focused on Cardiff and the proposed civil justice centre. But I represent north Wales, I live in Flintshire. I live near Wrexham and I live near Chester. So, looking at Wales in its entirety, what is your assessment of the quality of court facilities in Wales and available to people living in Wales?

My focus is largely on accessibility. That's my main focus. There are some serious problems with roofs and the like, and the estate, generally, is very difficult to manage. I think we've got over 128 rooms: 22 in the Crown Court, 20 in magistrates, 68 in civil and family. It's a big challenge, and there has been historic underfunding as a matter of record across the board. I think we've also, as you may have picked up, Mr Isherwood, had some very real security concerns, with attacks on judges in social media and in the press, and we have had a real blitz, I'm glad to say, on improving physical security in the courts, and that has meant improvements, particularly in civil and family courts. We haven't really talked about civil and family much, have we, apart from the civil justice centre in Cardiff. But the work there, the sorts of cases that are carried out and presided over by judges, in sometimes very small confines, with very real security risks—. So, there's been a lot of work going on on the estate in relation to security.

Thank you. Well, you referred to accessibility, and, as you'll know, the Inns of Court provide guidance to courts and judges in relation to things like disability, autism, sensory loss and so on. But what is your—? And I frequently, because I chair the cross-party groups on those issues in the Senedd, hear worrying stories about perhaps the interviewing processes not understanding the barriers that individuals might face because of their conditions. Some of that's physical, some of that is more attitudinal or educational and based on a lack of understanding. But what is your understanding of the importance not only of general accessibility, but of meeting the needs of people who encounter barriers because of the conditions they might have?

So, I don't have any Welsh-specific experience or information to share with you on that, Mr Isherwood. But, absolutely, if you look at our equal treatment bench book, if you look on the Judicial College website, the amount of training that is going on, particularly on neurodiversity and so on and so forth, is enormous. So, it's very, very much a live issue for all of us. There's a lot of training going on and a lot of learning going on, and I think we've seen a sea change in attitude, not only to youth, actually, but maturity and the development of individuals, but also in terms of reasonable adjustments and the like. Obviously, the subject of intermediaries is one that may be very close to your heart; you may have direct or indirect experience of their use in court. But, obviously, the way we look after young and vulnerable witnesses or parties has changed over recent years beyond all recognition.

Okay. A final question from me, and you've already partially touched on this in relation to securing improvements to the judicial estate: what specific discussions have you had with the Welsh Government and the UK Government, if any, about securing said improvements, not just for the Cardiff civil justice centre, although that's important, but also elsewhere across Wales?

I make the case to Government at every opportunity I have to invest in the estate across the board. The conversations in question are normally with the Lord Chancellor; there's obviously a concordat process every year, with a capital budget and a maintenance budget, and so on and so forth. So, I make the case whenever I can as best I can. I haven't had the opportunity to have any conversations in detail with the First Minister on that, other than to talk about the Cardiff civil justice centre in recent discussions.

Following on from Mark Isherwood's question, at the current rate of expenditure, how long will it take to get the estate up to the required or acceptable standard?

The figure I have for the estimate of the maintenance backlog is £1.3 billion. So, I have no way of putting years on that, I'm afraid. It is decades—. It has taken decades to get here, so I don't think it's going to be an easy, quick fix, I'm afraid.

Okay, thank you. Alun Davies.

That's a pretty sad reflection on the state of the justice system across our jurisdictions. In terms of taking the conversation forward, I thought your response, Lady Carr, to the questions on language were very persuasive and convincing. I'm less persuaded by your response to some of the questions on the place of the judiciary in the distinct legal landscape created by devolution. Because you have two elements, don't you? You have both the law that's written down, which is distinct and different in different fields between Wales and England, and then you have that sort of cultural place, if you like, which you touched upon earlier. And having sat here for nearly 20 years now, my experience is that London finds the UK quite a difficult concept to understand; it doesn't really get the UK outside of the M25. My sense is that the judiciary and the jurisdiction is an English jurisdiction with Wales patched on. And I struggle with that, as a legislator and as a citizen. I'd like to be convinced that the judiciary does, in some ways, buck that trend.

I'm not here to persuade or convince you of anything. I am here to give my best evidence and information to you and to answer your questions. So, I'm not making a case for anything, as you will, I think, understand, Mr Davies. What I can do is assure you of the way the judiciary in Wales works, the way we train our judges in England and Wales, and to give you as much information as I can as to the detail of that. I have spoken—. You haven't asked me about the interaction between, for example, the committee on Wales that sits on our judges' council, with judges from all jurisdictions in Wales, who have the discussions and with whom I meet regularly. We haven't talked about the president of Welsh Tribunals sitting on the Transparency and Open Justice Board, on the committee on Wales—all the sorts of engagements that we have.

So, what I would say, without trying to persuade or convince anybody, is that Wales is front and centre of the work that we do in England and Wales, and that we try to be as inclusive as one judiciary as possible—the Chair asked me about that a little earlier—across the board. So, we don't make distinctions between, as it were, Welsh judges on the one hand, and English judges on the other. We are one judiciary, we are a shared legal jurisdiction, and we serve, or aim and try to serve, the people of Wales in an accessible way that reflects their distinct identity, their distinct qualities, for example, the legislation that the Senedd passes, to make sure that English and Welsh judges are delivering and applying the law in a fair and accurate way. So, I hope that's an answer.

Thank you for that. To what extent, then, can you be confident that members of the judiciary fully understand that distinct legal landscape in Wales?

Well, to the extent of the training that we have. We have a Welsh training committee on the judicial college, we have Wales newsletters, we have an e-library, so the whole point of some of the things that I was saying in my opening was to demonstrate how Wales-centric, in that sense, we are and that the needs of Wales are catered for in the manners that I've described.

To what extent—? Describe, then, the work that you do with either colleagues here at the Senedd, the Welsh Government or any other stakeholders in Wales to actually strengthen that understanding of devolved law.

Sorry, the work—?

Describe the work that you would undertake during a year, say the last year, with the Welsh Government, with colleagues here in the Senedd or others, to strengthen that judicial understanding of Welsh law.

The engagement with Government by myself and other senior members wouldn't really strengthen the understanding of the judges of England and Wales. It might strengthen the understanding of the Senedd and others a little bit more about what we do. It's one of the reasons I'm here. But in terms of the judges' understanding of Wales's identity and Welsh law, it's the presiding judges that I refer to, it's the Welsh architecture, it's the presence on judges' council, all of these things that come together to make sure that there is that package, as it were, of understanding.

Okay. I think Adam wants to return to the tribunals.

Do we have time, Chair? Just a couple of questions to conclude from me. In terms of the Welsh language, just a specific question: the Welsh Language Commissioner has recently raised concerns about a consultation by the committee for regulations and procedures—I don't know whether that's the right title—in terms of a specific situation that arises where there is ambiguity regarding the Welsh text and the English text in pieces of legislation. At present, what happens is that you, as courts, demand that there is a Welsh-speaking judge presiding in order to understand the two versions in full. But the suggestion in the consultation currently is that there should be a movement away from that and to allow non-Welsh-speaking judges with an assessor or an independent adviser who can provide linguistic advice, I guess, to them. The Welsh Language Commissioner has said that that is, in her view—I'm seeking to summarise—not in alignment with the equal status of the Welsh and English languages as far as Senedd legislation goes. Can you respond to that concern expressed by the commissioner?

So, I'm unaware of that concern. Nobody's drawn that to my attention, and I will follow it up. HMCTS's Welsh language scheme is approved by the Welsh Language Commissioner. Actually, we had a very good presentation by the Welsh Language Commissioner back last October in Bangor. So, I'm not aware of there being any suggestion that any proposals we have are out of alignment, and, if that is the case, then we need to look at that.

I'm grateful for that. Just finally from me, I want to ask about the relationship with Welsh Tribunals. We've heard about one judiciary in Wales, but we have two sets of judiciary in Wales, one might say. But you appoint, do you not, the president of the Welsh Tribunals. Is that the case? But the president has raised—how may I put it; perhaps it's overstating it to say that he's expressed some frustration—a desire to see greater co-operation between the Welsh tribunal system and the tribunals and courts across England and Wales in terms of the Judicial College. At present, there is no full access. Could you give us an update on any discussions that you've had in that regard and the links and connections in general with that system, as you do appoint the president? So, you do have a role in that regard as far as the system currently stands.

I'm lucky. Sir Gary Hickinbottom is a very good friend of mine. I didn't appoint him, so there's no conflict to declare, but I work very closely with him. Just to put in context how often I see him, he's a member of the Judges' Council Committee for Wales, he's on the tribunal judiciary executive board, he's on the Administrative Justice Council and he's on the transparency and open justice board that I established. So, he is very much in my sights; we correspond whenever we need to.

Obviously, as the Welsh Tribunals are devolved, the Judicial College isn't responsible for training them. However, you're absolutely right that we have, when there is capacity, sometimes on a discretionary basis, allowed devolved tribunals' judges to join in on the training, particularly when the training is in proficiency in the Welsh language. I suspect it'll be a capacity problem, whether or not we have capacity to support, but certainly we have good working relationships with Sir Gary. I'm sighted on his issues.

There was an issue recently about, I think, access to eJudiciary, which is our electronic online system, which, again, we have no obligation to allow devolved tribunal judges to have access to, but we are providing them with access, at least on an interim basis, until they are able to set their own systems up to get them up and running.

It is not a hostile relationship, far from it, and Sir Gary and I are closely sighted on all sorts of issues, including, for example, parity of pay for the tribunal judges in devolved tribunals that came up recently, where I work with him to the best of my ability and within the bounds of the constitutional arrangements that exist.

Thank you very much.

Can I thank you very much, firstly, for coming along, and secondly for answering our questions? I've got to tell you that you'll get a copy of the transcript. I've seen you answering questions and you do what I do when you turn towards the person who asked you the question. The problem with that is every now and again, it misses out a word. So, when you check the transcript, you may find, as I sometimes do, a word missing.

As long as it's not a 'not'.

No, it's just sometimes as you turn away, it does not necessarily pick up the word. It's happened to me on several occasions. I hope it hasn't happened to you today, but please check it, because you might want to add a 'to' or an 'and' in there, which was missed when it was being picked up. Again, thank you very much for coming.

Thank you. I know that you have a very busy agenda, but I have just brought, just in case it's of any interest, the annual report in Welsh. And just to say thank you, Chair; this is a moment in history. No Lord Chief Justice or Lady Chief Justice has ever come before the committee before. I feel it's very important. We may not always have the answers, we may not necessarily persuade or convince—as I say, it's not my role to do that—but I do think that this open engagement is really important. Please do encourage your colleagues to reach out to their local courts and tribunals. Because as I say, the more that we all know about what we do, why we do it, and how we do it, the better, in my experience. Thank you for this opportunity. I will follow up on those issues that we said we would look at for you. I hope that this is the beginning of a bigger programme of engagement where we can discuss and inform as far as possible. Thank you.

As do we. Thank you. Can I suggest that we move into private session for five minutes so that people can leave and come in?

Welcome back to this public session of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Item 3, instruments that raise no reporting issues under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act 2024 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2026. These regulations bring section 7 of the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Act 2024 into force on 23 January 2026, completing the commencement of all remaining provisions. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments? No.

The Local Health Boards (Directed Functions) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2026. These regulations delegate Welsh Ministers' functions for administering direct payments for NHS continuing healthcare to local health boards. They amend the Local Health Boards (Directed Functions) (Wales) Regulations 2009 to establish the legal mechanism for this delegation and will operate alongside the Direct Payments (Wales) Regulations 2026. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments? No.

Item 3.3, the Non-Domestic Rating (Value of Differential Multipliers) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations set two different tax rates for business properties in Wales from April 2026: a lower rate for retail properties and a slightly higher rate for certain larger properties. They do this by applying set percentage adjustments to the standard business rates multiplier for that year. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments? No.

The Renters' Rights Act 2025 (Commencement) (Wales) Order 2026. These regulations bring into force provisions of the Renters' Rights Act 2025 that prohibit discriminatory bans or restrictions on tenants based on having children or receiving benefits. Senedd lawyers have identified no reporting points. Do Members have any comments? No.

We move on to item 4, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 or 21.3. The Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (Extension to Maritime Activities) Order 2026. We have a written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs from 13 January 2026 and a letter from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs. These regulations expand the UK emissions trading scheme to include emissions from maritime voyages, reflecting joint policy development by the Welsh, UK and Scottish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive. They require operators of eligible large ships to monitor, verify and report their emissions annually to support the UK's wider emissions reduction and net-zero commitments. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response is not required. Jen, you're going to tell us what the technical reporting point is.

Yes, thank you, Chair. The point simply notes that, due to the Order being subject to UK, Scottish and Northern Irish parliamentary scrutiny, it wasn't made bilingually.

Thank you very much.

The Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Regulations 2026—draft report. These regulations support the implementation of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act 2023 by expanding the definition of 'prescribed contract' and introducing a definition for 'registrable contract.' They also amend the terminology relating to 'people with disabilities' and specify the information that must be included in annual public procurement reports. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical and two merits points. There has not been a Welsh Government response as yet. Over to you, Jen.

Thank you, Chair. The technical point requests further explanation regarding an issue with a cross-reference. The first merits point seeks further information from the Government regarding the impact of the regulations as, in prescribing additional types of public contract, more contracts will now be subject to the socially responsible procurement duty and associated obligations. A response is awaited regarding both of those points, but no response has been requested regarding the final merits point, which notes that consultation was carried out on whether the drafting of the instrument reflected the policy intent, but not on the policy itself, which has already been established by the Act.

Do Members have anything they want to raise? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes.

The National Health Service (Direct Payments) (Wales) Regulations 2026—draft report. These regulations set out who may receive direct payments for certain NHS services in Wales, how decisions about eligibility are made, and the responsibilities of patients, representatives and nominees involved in managing those payments. These regulations also outline the information, support, monitoring and conditions required to ensure payments are used appropriately and can be reviewed, recovered or stopped where necessary. Senedd lawyers have identified five technical reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, do you want to go through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. Three of the points note inconsistencies between the Welsh and English texts. The other two points request further explanation regarding the lack of a definition for the 2005 Act in the instrument and a cross-reference to a non-existent provision.

Thank you very much. Do Members have anything they wish to raise? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes.

The Closure of European Union Legacy Agriculture Schemes (Wales) Regulations 2026—draft report. These regulations close three unused European Union legacy agricultural schemes in Wales: the fruit and vegetable aid scheme, public intervention, and private storage aid. They are being revoked because none have been used in Wales for decades, with no applications to the fruit and vegetable scheme since 1996, and no use of the market intervention scheme since 2000. Senedd lawyers have identified five technical and two merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Over to you, Jen.

Thank you, Chair. Two of the points request further explanation as to the inclusion of a statement regarding the Welsh Ministers being a relevant national authority in the preamble to the regulations, and also to seek clarity as to where text should be inserted into an EU regulation. Uncertainty arises due to a discrepancy between the approach of the regulations and that of the English and Scottish equivalent provisions. There are also three defective drafting points noted, due to incorrect references and a lack of numbering of text to be inserted into an EU regulation. A response is awaited for these points, but not for the two merits points, which highlight the consultation outcome and the Government's position that removing these schemes will reduce financial and administrative risk on public finances.

Do Members have anything to raise? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes.

The Non-Domestic Rating (Artificial Avoidance Arrangements) (Local Lists) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations set out the types of artificial non-domestic rating avoidance arrangements in Wales, the conditions under which they apply, and the associated processes for penalties, notices and appeals. Senedd lawyers have identified six technical and three merits reporting points. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to run through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. Of the technical reporting points, one notes an inconsistency between the Welsh and English texts. The other technical reporting points all request further information from the Government regarding a variety of matters, including the inclusion of a condition that is not specified in the relevant enabling power, when a demand notice should be served if an appeal is made against a decision of the first-tier tribunal, the timing of the coming into force of the regulations alongside other regulations that amend the same text, clarification on the use of the word 'hereditament' in different contexts, and clarification in the wording of the Welsh text. A response is also awaited for the first merits point, which queries the fact that the regulations provide for a review or appeal against a specified notice but don't set out any procedures for such review or appeal. No response is requested in relation to the final two merits points, which note that a footnote will need to be updated before the regulations are made, and that the financial penalties imposed under the regulations will have to be paid into the Welsh consolidated fund.

Thanks, Jen. Do Members have anything to raise? No. Are we happy to agree the reporting points? Yes.

Item 4.6, the Renting Homes (Model Written Statements of Contract) (Wales) (Amendments etc.) Regulations 2026. These regulations amend the 2022 regulations on model written statements of contract to include new rights introduced by the Renters' Rights Act 2025, specifically the rights relating to children residing in or visiting a dwelling and to the claiming of benefits. They further provide that the right concerning children living at or visiting a dwelling is not to be treated as a fundamental provision for supported standard contracts. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to take us through the reporting point?

Thank you, Chair. The point seeks clarity from the Welsh Government as to the reason why two powers are listed as enabling powers in the regulations, when it's not clear how the regulations rely upon them.

Thank you. Do Members have anything they want to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting point?

Instruments subject to the Senedd annulment procedure: the Education (Student Finance) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2026. These regulations update Welsh student finance rules by extending eligibility to certain veterans' families, adjusting loan entitlements, and improving support for care-experienced students. They also remove outdated provisions, introduce termination rules for some postgraduate students, and revoke superseded regulations. Senedd lawyers have identified two technical and one merits reporting point. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Jen, would you like to run us through the reporting points?

Thank you, Chair. The first point notes that there was a breach of the 21-day convention in relation to these regulations. The explanation provided by the Government only states that there was a delay with the registration process. So, further information is requested regarding the reason for that delay. There's also a defective drafting point where an amendment inserts a heading as part of a regulation itself. And then there is a merits point for which no response has been requested, which notes that no consultation has been carried out for these regulations.

Thank you very much. Is there anything Members wish to raise? Are we happy to agree the reporting points?

Item 5, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.7, previously considered. The Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 (Commencement No. 2) Order 2025. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 19 January and laid its report the same day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report, which has since been received. Jen, anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

Just to note that the Government agrees that amendments are required to clarify that sections 90 and 91 of the Infrastructure (Wales) Act 2024 are being commenced by this Order to the extent that they're not already in force. They intend to bring forward an amending instrument this Senedd term.

Thank you very much. Are we happy to note the Government's response?

Instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Order 21.2 and 21.3, previously considered. The Recognition of Professional Qualifications and Implementation of International Recognition Agreements (Regulation and Inspection of Social Care) (Miscellaneous Amendments) (Wales) Regulations 2026. The committee considered this at its meeting on 26 January and laid its report the following day. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government's response to the report, which has since been received, in advance of the Plenary debate tomorrow. Jen, do you have anything to raise from the Welsh Government response?

Just to note that one of the points that was raised related to the lack of definition of the term 'supervised practice'. The Government has responded to say it considers the term is understood sufficiently in the sector so as not to require a definition.

Thanks, Jen. Do Members have anything to raise? Are we happy to note the Government's response? Yes.

Notifications and correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement: correspondence from the Welsh Government on meetings of inter-ministerial groups. We have one notification this week of inter-ministerial group meetings taking place. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning informs us that a meeting of the Interministerial Group on UK-EU Relations was held on 21 January. The Cabinet Secretary states that, during the meeting, she outlined the priority areas for the Welsh Government, including where it believes future agreements will require devolved implementation, or where it believes negotiations will significantly impact on Wales. Do Members have any comments?

Yes.

Thank you. Alun.

In terms of this, this is quite an important group in terms of the ongoing negotiations with the EU, following the agreement last year. It would be useful, rather than just having this far too brief outline here, to understand where those negotiations are at the moment—I'm sure the UK Government won't want to give a running commentary on these matters—but also the structure of those negotiations and the place of the Welsh Government in those negotiations.

Thank you, Alun. Does anybody want to comment? No.

On to papers to note, correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery to Adam Price MS: planning consolidation Bills—proposed removal of urban development corporation planning powers. The Counsel General addresses comments made by Adam Price in relation to the provision of the Planning (Consequential Provisions) (Wales) Bill, a Bill that the committee has recently considered. The Counsel General explains that the Welsh Government agrees with the Law Commission that the power removed by the provision is very unlikely to be used and is no longer required. She is therefore satisfied it is appropriate for the Bill to remove this power in accordance with the Standing Orders on consolidation Bills. The committee’s report on the planning consolidation Bills, which recommended, by a majority, the Bills should proceed to final stage, was laid on Friday. Do Members have anything they wish to raise? No.

Correspondence from the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery on Swansea residential women’s centre. The Counsel General’s letter responds to our request for information on the opening of the residential women’s centre in Swansea. She states that decisions on the centre are for the UK Government. However, planning and building permission have been secured and the project remains a priority for the Welsh Government. The Counsel General states that the Cabinet Secretary for Social Justice will soon meet with Lord Timpson, Minister for Prisons, Probation and Reducing Reoffending, to help fully understand the latest position around the centre. Do Members have any comments they wish to make?

Yes. I think this is, I’m sorry, not an adequate response to the questions that are being asked here, because I think simply saying decisions on the centre are for the UK Government is not good enough, because the whole purpose of this women’s centre was to provide an alternative to straightforward imprisonment for women who fit the different criteria necessary for this, and the purpose was to provide a holistic centre for women who are currently simply in the secure estate. So, it should be a matter not just for the UK Government, but for the Welsh Government as well, because this will involve social services, the health service and other Welsh Government-delivered services. So, this isn’t simply a matter for the UK Government, and it should be managed by the Welsh Government and not the UK Government.

Thank you, Alun. Mark Isherwood.

Yes, I largely endorse those comments. We need greater clarity. I was in the shadow counsel general role when this was first discussed on the Senedd floor following a UK Government proposal for five centres, one of which would be within Wales. But the statement that was made to the Senedd announcing where this would be located in Wales was made by the Welsh Government, not the UK Government, and it was only after that that we discovered that they didn't have planning consent and the council had issues still to work through. So, it was clear from outset that the Welsh Government promoted the role it had in this, and I think we need to perhaps challenge a little bit further as indicated on that basis.

Thank you, Mark. Will we have an opportunity to ask the Counsel General questions on this in Counsel General scrutiny? Yes. So, perhaps we'll get an opportunity to raise it then.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to the Finance Committee: the revised explanatory memorandum and regulatory impact assessment on the Homelessness and Social Housing Allocation (Wales) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary informed the Finance Committee that a revised explanatory memorandum has been laid following Stage 2 amendments to this Bill, and has summarised the changes made. Do Members have any comments they wish to make? No.

Item 8.4, correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and the Welsh Language to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee: the Welsh Government response to the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee report on the Development of Tourism and Regulation of Visitor Accommodation (Wales) Bill. The Cabinet Secretary sets out the Welsh Government's full response to the recommendations made in the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee Stage 1 report on the Bill. We're awaiting a full response from the Cabinet Secretary to our Stage 1 report. Do Members have any comments? No.

Correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government: the Welsh Government's responses to committees' reports on the Building Safety (Wales) Bill. We have received a follow-up letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government to her response to our report on the Building Safety (Wales) Bill. The letter explains that officials are continuing to work on defining 'storey' and outlines amendments she has tabled to narrow the scope of sections 14 and 16 of the Building Safety (Wales) Bill, as we call for in our report. The letter also sets out why the Cabinet Secretary believes that certain regulation-making powers should remain broad and provide an explanation of where powers may overlap, and the rationale for retaining them. The Cabinet Secretary will also provide additional information to supplement her responses to the reports of the Finance Committee and Local Government and Housing Committee. Do Members have any comments? I see none.

Correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs and the Counsel General and Minister for Delivery: the Welsh Government's draft budget. The Deputy First Minister and Counsel General respond to the committee's queries on the draft budget, explaining that while more detailed justice spending data would be valuable, structural barriers outside the Welsh Government's control currently prevent this. They outline ongoing work to strengthen the evidence base for justice in Wales, progress on youth justice devolution discussions, development of probation services, and continued reform of Welsh Tribunals, including preparation of a future tribunals Bill. The letter states that justice has not been deprioritised but is instead being targeted to areas of greatest impact, with updates to the committee to follow as devolution negotiations progress. Do Members have any comments? No.

Motion under Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. I move. Is that agreed? Yes.