Local Government and Housing Committee

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and bore da. Yes, you will be aware that the responses to the White Paper did indicate broad support for the ambition and the scope of the proposals within that. We’re still in the process of developing policy and legislation, so it is early days at the moment, so it’s a bit early to draw conclusions about the outcomes, but we do continue to work really closely with stakeholders, including our expert review panel, to deliver an informed approach that aligns with the aspirations of the White Paper.

So, we’re actively considering implementation options to ensure a phased and timely approach to reform, alongside the development of a robust regulatory impact assessment. But I can assure the committee that we remain committed to introducing legislation in this Senedd term.

Is there anything you could say about timescale for that, Cabinet Secretary, at this stage?

Just that we’re keen to do that in this Senedd term, and we will be doing that in this Senedd term. I don’t know if there are any specific other details on that, but—.

The First Minister will announce the exact timing as part of the legislative programme announcements in due course, but we are on schedule for a Bill this Senedd term.

Okay. Affordable homes taskforce—is it possible for you to provide a little bit more detail than we’ve had hitherto, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of how that taskforce will operate, what you would hope the outcomes to be, and, again, the sort of timescales involved?

Yes. Diolch, Cadeirydd. As I said in the committee a few weeks ago, this is something that we’re looking at as part of a suite of options, because we really know that we need to focus on delivering. This is something that the First Minister is incredibly keen on—delivery in this area, but across portfolios. We’re currently finalising the terms of reference for the taskforce, but we will be announcing—the First Minister will be announcing—a chair imminently. So, we will keep the committee up to date, and we will also make sure that you have the terms of reference for that taskforce in due course.

Yes, Siân.

Gaf i ofyn ynglŷn â'r tasglu? Fydd y tasglu yn atebol i chi ynteu fydd y tasglu yn atebol i'r Gweinidog dros delivery, Julie James? Beth ydy'r gwahaniaeth rhwng y gwaith fydd delivery unit Julie James yn ei wneud yn y maes tai a beth y mae'r tasglu yn mynd i fod yn ei wneud?

Diolch, Siân. As I said, the terms of reference will be outlined very shortly, so I'll make sure that that is clear in those terms of reference as well, because it's something that I'll be working with the taskforce on. But obviously Julie, with her delivery hat on, will have a very keen focus on it as well. But I will make sure that the committee is kept updated on that.

Thank you.

Okay, Siân? Okay, thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary.

Moving on to the housing support grant and what the future holds, would you plan to increase the housing support grant over the longer term, particularly because we need to see this rapid rehousing transformation that we've discussed at some length in various fora, really? Is that what you would intend, Cabinet Secretary, or are you—?

Yes, just to be clear around—. It’s really important to remember that prevention remains the real focus and the priority to reduce the flow of people going into temporary accommodation. In terms of the housing support grant, you’ll be aware that the housing support grant budget was increased by £13 million, or 7.8 per cent, in this year’s budget. So, the total budget is now standing at £182.4 million. Within the settlement for 2025-26, I will be strongly advocating for an increase in the housing support grant budget to continue our commitment to the real living wage for the homelessness and housing support workforce, who deliver the support within these services. And again, as I did a few weeks’ ago, I’d just like to put my thanks on record for the work that those staff do—it’s an incredibly important job—and that was part of the reason for the uplift.

Yes, I'm sure the whole committee would like to add their voices in terms of the thanks and the recognition that those staff deserve, doing such an incredibly important job with such commitment, which I think we all see in our own constituencies. Siân.

Ie, dwi'n falch o glywed eich bod chi'n ymrwymo i weithio'n galed i gael y cynnydd yma. Ydych chi'n ffyddiog y bydd modd cyhoeddi hyn yn gynnar yn y broses o ddatblygu'r gyllideb ddrafft? Oherwydd beth sydd yn tueddu digwydd ydy bod yna ffigwr cychwynnol ac wedyn, yn nes ymlaen, oherwydd bod yna dipyn o bwysau yn cael ei roi, mae'r ffigwr yn cael ei gynyddu, a dyw hynny ddim yn help i'r sector. Buasai'n rili da, y tro yma, petasen nhw'n cael gwybod beth yn union fydd y cynnydd a'i fod o'n gynnydd digonol reit o'r cychwyn, fel bod y sicrwydd yn cael ei roi a'n bod ni ddim yn colli mwy o staff o'r sector.

Diolch, Siân. Absolutely, it's really important, we have to work really hard to make sure that we don't lose those valuable staff from the sector, and that always is a challenge in terms of attracting staff, but also of retention.

In the short term, work has commenced across Welsh Government to consider funding allocations within the 2025-26 draft budget, ahead of the publication on 10 December. But any budget increase next year will obviously be dependent on the funding envelope that Welsh Government has, following the UK Government’s autumn statement later this month, and what that funding then means across my entire portfolio as well. So, again, that’s something that I’m sure we can keep the committee updated on.

Okay, Siân? James.

Yes, thanks, Cabinet Secretary. You've outlined, in the brief time that we've been talking, some strategies that the Welsh Government have been using to address homelessness, but the figures from Stats Wales do paint a different picture, don't they? Homelessness has gone up—I've got it in front of me: in 2021-22, it went up by 8 per cent; in 2022-23, it went up as well. So, the strategies we've currently got aren't working, are they? So, I'm just interested in your assessment as a new Cabinet Secretary: why do you think they haven't worked in the past and what do you think needs to be done to put that right?

I think there have been some real strides being made in homelessness across Wales. We know the numbers of people who are homeless and that is something that should sit very difficultly with us all, really, because they’re individuals, and those numbers, you know, there are individuals behind those. We're working hard on the fact that we're trying to end homelessness in Wales and to make sure that, if there is homelessness, it's brief, rare and unrepeated. We're trying to put as much as we can into that prevention side, so that we do work really hard to stop people before they get homeless. That is so crucial, and we've done that with things like the transitional accommodation capital funding programme as well, to try and support people. But I don't know if Sarah would like to come in.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I think it's important to reflect on the fact that the strategy that we've got in place was developed by working closely with the homelessness action group, as they were then, so it's very much grounded in the advice of the sector, experts in the sector. The ending homelessness national advisory board helps us in terms of supporting delivery of that strategy and the action plan. So, we're continuously reflecting on what we need to do to refine that action plan to respond to changing contexts, and the context has changed considerably over the last few years, not least because of the cost-of-living pressures. But certainly the advice that we're getting from the board and from the experts in the sector is that the strategy is right, the measures and the actions that we're taking are right, and it's because of some of the external factors that we faced, it just might take us a bit longer to get where we want to be.

So, if the stats come out—sorry, John—

No.

—for 2023-24 and show that homelessness has gone up again, does that mean you'd have a relook at some of the strategies and say, 'Well, are they actually working?' Even though they've been developed with the industry, if the stats are going in the wrong direction, surely you need to have a stock take and think, 'Is this the right thing that we're doing?'

I think homelessness is a really complex issue, as well. It's not just us looking at the statistics, particularly. I think it is really complex and this is something that we're seeing across the UK; it's not just something specific to Wales. There's no denying there are certain pressures, we know that, but we are really working hard with the sector, with people who have been incredibly brave, I think, to share their experiences. They've lived through homelessness, and they're actually trying to help us to try and make a difference, to change the way we do things, so that other people don't have to go through these things.

I remember being at the White Paper launch in Newport, as a constituency Member, and speaking to people who had taken part in that and given their own views, and it was quite incredible—I think Siân was there with Julie James, who was the Minister at the time—to hear those people who'd lived through the challenges of homelessness and come out, really trying to do everything they could to share their experiences to make an improvement. And the willingness of Welsh Government to listen, I think, is really important and that people know that we are keen to listen. We want to do that and we want to really make an improvement. Sarah, did you want to add?

Thanks, Cabinet Secretary. Yes, just further to what you were saying, we do continuously look at what we're doing. The Cabinet Secretary mentioned the TACP programme and that was very much in response to what we were hearing from the sector and to try and support move-on from temporary accommodation. The additional discretionary homelessness money that we give to local authorities, again, is in recognition of the need to try and support more prevention activity. So, we continuously engage with the sector, with local authorities, with service users, as the Cabinet Secretary said, to learn and to refine what we're doing. Obviously, the programme of legislative reform that we're bringing forward is also seeking to not just respond in the immediate term, but also make sure we've got the longer term strategy and the longer term levers that we need to end homelessness in Wales.

James, do you want to continue?

Yes, before I move on to building safety, one element that can end homelessness is actually the building of houses, and we've seen that the phosphate regulations that were brought in had a major impact on house building across Wales. Have you quantified, Cabinet Secretary, the number of housing units that have been delayed or prevented due to phosphate restrictions, especially in the social housing sector?

Thank you, James. I know that with the previous Cabinet Secretary a lot of progress has been made in this area, particularly with the former First Minister as well, who was chairing that group. Yes, absolutely, we are making progress and that's something I continue to do in my role with the new Cabinet Secretary for the environment and climate change, because he's working hard on that as well. In terms of the phosphates, perhaps I can ask Emma to come in on that one.

The phosphate-related work, as the Cabinet Secretary says, it's really important that it had that focus from the First Minister at the time, and a number of river summits looking in a cross-Government way at the issue. I think, at the time, at the start of those summits, we had 68 sites that we'd identified that were held up due to phosphates. The work that was done—. It was an individual, site-by-site exercise, because the issues weren't all the same on each individual site. We're down to only one of those is now held up due to phosphates. So, a combination of having the right people around the table, the right conversation and the right targeted focus on trying to resolve a specific challenge has been really successful in relation to phosphates. So, there are still challenges, but I think we have a better, collective, sector-wide set of approaches that can be taken in terms of not ending up in the same position again.

That's fine. Just—

Sorry. I was just going to say that I think that's an important point as well, and something that we hope the housing taskforce and other groups—to try and unblock some of the problems with areas for house building, as we have done with the phosphates.

Sorry. Siân.

Thank you, Chair. I'm interested to know, therefore, how many houses have been built on the 68 sites that you mention, or are there any other barriers, apart from phosphates, holding things back?

So, they have been unblocked from phosphates, but that doesn't mean that there are houses there.

They will be in different stages of development, but they are no longer held up. Phosphates was identified as the major significant blocker on those 68 sites. I don't have the number of homes on those sites to hand, but we have it, so we can provide that to the committee afterwards, if you'd like us to. And absolutely, sites often face a number of challenges and barriers, and as the Cabinet Secretary says, in terms of unblocking other sites that have challenges, what we can learn from the approach on phosphates is that, by getting the right people around the table for a very focused conversation, you can often have far more success in terms of challenging the issues that are at play.

I was just going to say as well, just to follow on from that in terms of areas that have some blockages on, I've written to the committee, following our discussion at the last meeting, around the letter that we wrote to RSLs and local authorities to see where some of the challenges were already in the pipeline. So, the committee has a copy of that letter. We have had a really positive response to that. We're still analysing those that are coming in, but we feel very pleased to have had that positive response and to see those areas where there are particular challenges, and that's something we're really keen to unblock, and to know what's in the pipeline as well, which local authorities and RSLs have been able to point to us. So, yes, we’re really drilling down on some of that detail, which I think will help, as the issue with phosphates has, as well.

Yes, that's great, and if the committee could be kept up to date as things develop, that would be very good.

Yes.

James.

Just on this point, Chair, and those 68, there are obviously going to be other social housing developments that have probably not actually come forward at all, because of phosphate regulation. Does the Welsh Government have any idea how many have not even come to that stage of you knowing of the 68? Say, Powys, for example, which has got quite strict phosphate regulations in place, I know of a lot of social housing developments that the council are doing that haven't even gone to planning stage, because they can't even get there. So, I'm just interested—. With the work you do around the futureproofing of housing stock numbers, how many sites have not even come onto the planning system yet because of phosphates? Because that'll give us a wider indication of how many units potentially are not being built.

I don't have a figure for that, I'm afraid.

You don't have a figure on that one.

I don't have a figure for things that have not even come forward. What I can say is that we have a very healthy pipeline of developments and social housing developments across Wales that runs into three years and beyond in terms of an initial programme that is in the social housing grant programme, and a reserve programme. And then part of the exercise that the Cabinet Secretary referred to was actually seeking further information on other developments that aren't currently in the programme but are waiting to join their place in the programme for the social housing grant.

Do you think, Cabinet Secretary, it’s something that the Welsh Government should probably look into with housing associations and local authorities, to see how many have probably not even gone into the planning stage yet because of phosphates? Surely for the Welsh Government that would be a good piece of information to have, to say that there could be hundreds of thousands of units that could be built that haven't even gone into the planning system yet, which are those 68 sites that the Welsh Government are trying to unblock.

I think that's some of the work that the new Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change—

You're the housing Secretary.

In terms of what we can work together on, because that was something—. It's bringing the right people around the table. Because absolutely, if it's unblocking, it's dealing with the phosphates issue, but there's a wider issue. But it's absolutely crucial to the housing sector in terms of building more houses. So, yes, absolutely I'm keen to be very much involved with that. But as I say, the phosphates issue is one. There are a number of other issues and that's why we need to look at these in detail. I think having that granular data that we have, and in those discussions specifically with local authorities and RSLs about what are the issues, what is coming up in your pipeline, what are the challenges that you haven't even put to us—. I think that granular data and that really digging down can try and unblock it, really.

I'm sure other colleagues will come on to some other questions there. But I want to move on to building safety, if that's okay. We haven't seen the pace of delivery on building safety that a lot of people would have liked to have seen, but a lot of that as well is around having a robust workforce to deliver what we actually need to do with bringing buildings up to the regulations that we all need to adhere to now. I'm just interested what conversations you've had with the Cabinet Secretary for skills to make sure that we do have that robust workforce in place to carry out those remediation works to those properties, to make sure people are actually living in safe homes. Because none of us want to see a situation like Grenfell ever again, and I think we need to make sure we deliver this at pace. There were recommendations coming from Audit Wales and the public accounts committee around elements of the workforce, and I'm just interested in what work the Welsh Government have done around that to make sure there is pace and delivery in this area of work.

Absolutely, we all want to see pace, and we all don't want to be in this situation, do we? Least of all the people that are living in that accommodation as well. Just to say first of all my sympathies go out to all those people who are involved, through no fault of their own. So, absolutely we want to see this go faster. We want the pace involved. But we also need to make sure we get it right.

In Wales, the whole way we're doing things here and the way we're adopting our approach is we're looking at internal and external safety issues as well—not just the cladding in the external bit, but internal fire safety issues, because we believe that's the best way to make buildings safe. In terms of the workforce, you're absolutely right—if we don't have the workforce we can't do all these things. The discussions that I can have with the Minister for skills are going to be really important around that, because we need to be putting this in place now.

In terms of the the recommendations that you mentioned around Audit Wales and the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, the Welsh Government have accepted the recommendations in both of those reports. Work is ongoing with the WLGA and other supporting bodies to progress those recommendations. Further to the evidence provided in the PAPA committee, a number of technical and policy roles have been appointed to support the building safety programme and the work to regulate the design and construction phase. I'm pleased to confirm that eight building control trainees have been recruited in Wales since earlier this year, with match funding from the Welsh Government and local authority building control.

I've got two more questions, Cadeirydd, if that's okay—

I think Emma wanted to come in.

Sorry, yes, I just wanted to add to that, Cabinet Secretary, if you don't mind. On the more generalist construction side, which you hinted at then, there is work under way with Construction Excellence in Wales and through the construction forum that looks more generally at the skills base, for current construction work but also with an eye to the future. So, it's through that work that sits with the Cabinet Secretary for economy, but it is a cross-Government piece of work, because, obviously, a large number of departments have a keen interest in having a strong and robust construction workforce. But it's looking at issues like how robust the current sector is, what might need to be done to support the sector, because, obviously, we've seen construction firms lost to the sector. You're absolutely right, if we don't have enough construction people with the right skills, then it is difficult to progress buildings at the pace that we would like to. So, there is a wider piece of work there that I'm happy to provide some further information on, if that would be helpful to the committee.

Yes, please. James.

These are my final two questions, because I'm hogging the session at the minute. The £127 million of capital funding that was made available for building safety, I'm just wondering how much of that has actually been spent this year. And also, with remedial works, how many buildings that are in the remediation programme are behind schedule? Because I think it'd be interesting to see how the money is equating to delivery on the ground.

Thank you, James. Absolutely, I understand that we all want to see everything done at pace and with the funding there. We have a route to remediation for all residential buildings over 11m in the Welsh building safety fund, and we're getting on with work, and nothing is being held up due to budget constraints. We have committed £210 million of funding since 2021, with a spend of £50 million estimated for 2024-25. As it's estimated, the works will continue over the next five years. We expect an increased spend over this period of work, and work is under way to ensure budgets are reprofiled in line with expected delivery.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Siân.

You mentioned there that the work is not being held back due to a lack of money, but this is progressing slowly in some areas. Are there some developers that still haven't signed the contract?

No. I think all of them have signed. Am I right in saying that, Jo? Yes.

Everyone we've approached has signed the contract. We do have some buildings that are orphan buildings—they don't have an identified developer, and we're taking those forward directly with the managing agents.

So the developer in my area has actually signed up now.

He has signed, yes, and I'm pleased to say I met with them yesterday.

That is very good news for my electors in Victoria Dock. Diolch.

I'm glad we're able to give good news.

I will relay that to them. Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn.

Thanks, Chair. Just as my computer goes to sleep—that was excellent timing.

As long as it's not you.

We're going to turn to some questions on the UK Renters' Rights Bill. I know that your predecessor was very clear on the Welsh Government position around no-fault evictions, but, clearly, there's an evolving picture at the UK level and in England now, and I just wonder if that has influenced the position of the Welsh Government, or if you have given any further consideration to that position, on the back of that.

Absolutely, Julie James has done incredible work in this area, so, again, it's good to put on record my thanks to Julie for the work that she's done here. I think we've got the right policy approach here in Wales. We have to look at our own area, and I think our system ensures that tenants are given sufficient time to plan and find a new home, and that's really important, because, ultimately, it's what matters to tenants, having the time to plan. Our reforms extended the notice period from two months to six months, to provide tenants with additional time. But we have stipulated that a notice can’t be served in the first six months of a tenancy. We don’t intend to make further changes to the legislation at this time. As I said, we feel that we’ve developed an approach here that’s right for Wales.

I assume that, over time, you’ll be watching what happens with the legislation at UK level to see how that plays out and if that would impact on us here as well.

Yes, absolutely.

The other point around the Bill proposed in England is the civil penalties around illegal evictions against non-compliant landlords. Is this something that the Welsh Government has given any consideration to as well?

Civil penalties in housing was brought in in England in 2016, where local housing authorities are able to issue those civil penalty notices for some housing offences. But it’s important to note that, in Wales, although fixed penalty notices for housing offences are generally lower than civil penalties, the offences are criminal. So, a landlord or agent could potentially lose their licence to operate if found guilty of a breach of housing legislation in Wales. So, removing the ability to operate a business is potentially a bigger deterrent than a one-off fine.

Okay, Hannah? Yes. Altaf Hussain.

I’m not sure—. Oh, yes, my speaker is working. Hello, good morning. Will the Welsh Government use the Bill to give tenants in Wales the right to keep pets? If not, how else will the Welsh Government improve tenants’ ability to keep their pets?

Diolch, Altaf, and bore da. I know this is something that the committee has been interested in in the past as well. Under the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, landlords and contract holders can agree additional terms covering the keeping of pets. The Welsh Government has issued guidance, setting out that any pet clause should allow a contract holder to ask permission to keep a pet, and that the landlord is not allowed to unreasonably refuse the request.

We have received evidence from pet charities on the challenges tenants with pets face as part of our Green Paper consultation on adequate housing and fair rents. We will be setting out measures that will support renting with pets within the forthcoming White Paper on fair rents, which will be published before the end of the month. So, it’s not really appropriate for me to talk much more at this time on that, but there will be more information coming ahead of that.

But just to say as well, we have reached out to Rent Smart Wales to contact landlords to highlight the latest research that shows that the cost of any damage to properties by those renting with pets is less than the cost of damage that is caused by those without pets. I think that’s something really important to remind everybody about as well.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. And with regard to anti-discrimination provisions, is the Welsh Government satisfied with the anti-discrimination provisions in the Renters' Rights Bill?

Diolch, Altaf. Although the UK Government Secretary of State can make changes in Wales through the discrimination element of the Renters' Rights Bill, it’s purely in relation to areas in which Wales does not have devolved powers, such as financial products like mortgages and insurance. Welsh Ministers have the power to make all other regulations in relation to powers contained in the UK Government Bill, including commencement powers and the power to designate additional cohorts who may not be discriminated against. I don’t know if there’s anything else, Emma.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I would add that it’s an iterative process. Officials are working closely with counterparts in the UK Government at the moment, as the work on that Bill progresses. Clauses aren’t necessarily finalised—there’s a Bill process to go through—but there is close working with UK counterparts on that matter.

And just to add, as the Cabinet Secretary said, we will have the regulation-making powers under that legislation, so if, in the future, we do want to add any additional cohorts, it gives us the ability to do that. As Emma says, it's an iterative process. We don't currently have plans to make regulations, but we'll see what additional evidence comes in through the White Paper that the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, and then we've got powers under the legislation should we wish to make more regulations and include more groups. Thank you.

Thank you very much. I'm talking about the powers and how the Welsh Government intends to use the regulation-making power to outlaw forms of renter discrimination in Wales, and why the Bill gives powers to the Secretary of State to make provisions in the fully devolved area of housing.

Yes, I think I just mentioned that although the Secretary of State can make changes in Wales to the discrimination element, it's just purely in relation to areas that Wales does not have devolved powers for.

Okay. I think, Hannah, would you just briefly turn to the pets issue?

Yes, very briefly, I was going to go back to the question around pets in rented accommodation. I was just thinking that I was encouraged by your answer to that because I think you would have seen an article on the BBC website this morning about somebody who was forced to give up their pet, and, actually, I don’t get emotional reading things often, but that really did tug at my heart strings.

I think, reflecting very personally for me—today is World Mental Health Day—I know that when I struggled with my mental health recently, it was my dog that actually provided me with that support, not just in terms of almost knowing when I wasn’t feeling great, but also in making me get out of the house as well. So, I think there is an impact, isn’t there, on other services and on individuals and on those pets when that happens?

So, I was encouraged by your response, but without wanting you to pre-empt anything that’s going to be in the White Paper, can I just ask if, perhaps from that response, the Welsh Government is open-minded about what else could be done and what levers could be used to support landlords in allowing pets? Because I know from experience too, like you say, that there are additional terms you could apply: a deposit and a contract to remedy certain things when you leave the tenancy as well. So, can I ask if you are open-minded about actually thinking about what more could be done if it's determined that it is necessary?

Yes, absolutely, and thank you for sharing your personal experience in terms of how much your dog has helped you, and I know that that would be the same for so many other people, absolutely. And often we hear about dogs, but it can be other animals—I’ve always seen cats that have been out on the street. And actually, I know that—. I was speaking to a housing support officer recently, who had been supporting somebody who had a budgie, and I think it’s important that we have—. Pets are really important to us and I think that should not be a barrier and actually, if you are struggling, I think that having your pet with you is something that’s really important, isn’t it?

Okay. Siân.

Ydych chi'n mynd i, felly, ddefnyddio Bil Hawliau Rhentwyr y Deyrnas Unedig fel cerbyd i greu'r hawl i denantiaid gadw anifeiliaid anwes, neu oes yna lwybr gwahanol? Pa lwybr ydych chi'n mynd i'w ddefnyddio neu edrych arno fo o ran dod â'r hawl yma yn rhan o fywyd Cymru?

Yes, absolutely. So, one of the things to say is that we're looking at this from the White Paper angle—

Which White Paper?

So, the White Paper on—[Laughter.] I know, to be honest, I'm going to start calling the other one 'the proposed Bill', but this one is the White Paper on the affordable, on fair rents. Am I right, or—?

The housing adequacy, fair rents and affordability.

Yes, that's the one that the White Paper—

I'm with you. There'll be a section on pets in that one.

Yes. So, obviously we had the Green Paper consultation, but also the previous Cabinet Secretary came before this committee as well—and I know you’ve previously taken evidence around pets—and we’ve looked at that evidence as well, as part of the development of the White Paper, so there will be something in the White Paper in terms of how can we improve the ability of tenants to keep pets.

So, the vehicle would be part of the Bill, hopefully, that will come out in the White Paper?

The White Paper will set out how we think we can take it forward in Wales and what legislative vehicle or non-legislative vehicle—looking at exploring different options—that we might be able to take forward.

And that will become clear with that White Paper, which will be at the end of October, so you'll be able to see that shortly as well. But, yes, I'm going to start calling the other one the proposed Bill, because there are a couple of White Papers now, and we're all getting confused on that. That will be coming, and we are aware of the committee's interest in this over a number of years now. I think just trying to get out the message to people that, as I said, you know, Rent Smart Wales, the cost of any damage in properties rented to those with pets is less than the damage in those without pets. If we can all try to get that message out to people, that's all the better, because there's a lot of wrong information going around, I think, that causes difficulties for people.

Yes.

Fine, Siân?

Yes, thank you.

Just to agree with the Cabinet Secretary, as well, Hannah, that it's really positive, isn't it, and encouraging that, when we're discussing a variety of issues now, Members of the Senedd are able and willing to talk about their own experiences, whether it's of mental health or physical health. It's just been such a big and, I think, noticeable change, particularly in this Senedd. It's just so positive for everybody out there, as we all go through life and have better or worse mental or physical health at particular times, that we can just talk about it so openly and freely now. It's hugely—

Today is World Mental Health Day.

—hugely positive, isn't it?

It is. Yes, absolutely.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. Lee Waters. Lee.

Thanks. I just want to go through the approach to empty homes and the various different schemes that you have. So, to begin with, the scheme that you have for individual home owners, the grant scheme. You obviously have a mix of grants and loans. Just in terms of the progress that you're making, I see that 17 of the 22 local authorities are signed up to the scheme from the figures that we have. Do you have any understanding of why the five remaining ones are not?

That is a very good question. I don't know the specifics of the other five, but perhaps Emma might know the detail.

There are various reasons. I couldn't cite individual authorities and their individual reasons off the top of my head, but I'm happy to provide further information on that. Some have prioritised other aspects of increasing housing stock and felt that the grant scheme was not for them at the moment. Some are in discussion with officials about joining, it's an ongoing process. But what we are seeing is very good interest in the grant scheme in particular, and some good progress, with 104 properties brought back into use already and a good pipeline of applications sitting behind that going through the process of seeking funding.

Sure, I'll come back to the pipeline. First, just to better understand why quite a significant part of Wales is missing out on the scheme. As you say, these are local government choices, but it would be interesting if some work was done to tease out whether there are some barriers there that could be overcome, whether or not there's a role for my favourite communities of practice in helping local authorities. Is it still the case that Merthyr Tydfil council is the lead authority for Wales in doing this? Is that right?

Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Rhondda Cynon Taf.

Sorry, Rhondda Cynon Taf. Quite right. So, in terms of the role they have in terms of working with local authorities who may have barriers, what do they do to try and help local authorities overcome any difficulties they may have?

So, RCT's primary role is administering the grant on our behalf. There are then a number of other mechanisms in terms of sharing best practice. There are some authorities that work together. There is an industry expert that supports work in this area, and we're at the moment developing a handbook to try and help all authorities in terms of the general approaches and the routes that can be taken to tackle empty properties in their area. So, there's a role for RCT, there are a number of local authorities that are working together in partnership on this, and some of them have specialised teams they've set up. I'm aware of a couple of local authorities who share resource in that, because it's quite a resource-intensive activity, tackling empties. So, there's a range of different practice out there, and part of the exercise, and part of the work on the handbook, is about drawing that together to make sure that we share that best practice, in a similar fashion to a community of practice, trying to make sure that everybody is able to see what is working in other areas and adopt that practice and learn from one another.

And being new in post, Lee, I'm really keen to understand—. You know, there are a number of grants in this area and different schemes and I'm keen to understand similar barriers or reasons why, perhaps, others aren't taking them up in the same way. And I think, again, it's trying to get underneath all of that, isn't it, and making sure that the right people are aware of all these schemes that are available and how that all fits together, as well as the best practice that's shared. I think it's important to understand where everybody is.

And some of it will be about capacity, won't it? As you say, Emma, others will just have different priorities for the capacity that they have. So, it's good to hear about the handbook, but the approach that you were describing there seems a little disparate to me, and I just wonder if there is some potential to try and harness that, and potentially have a role for Rhondda Cynon Taf beyond simply administering and to have more of a sherpa kind of role, I guess. Is that something that you've considered?

I think it's also how we work with local authorities on this. So, I'm sure that there are ways that we can look at how we can work better together in terms of making sure that that information is available and making sure that it's getting to the right people. There are lots of these different grants and loan schemes, but understanding why people are doing something—and, like you say, some of it might be capacity—but it's about sharing and doing that with local government, I think, and we all have a role in that.

Sure. But I just wonder if, beyond information sharing, there's a role in understanding what are the pain points that are preventing those five from joining, and are there things that can be done at a co-ordinated level to remove those pain points.

Yes. Absolutely. That is something that is important to do, because, again, getting down to some of that granular detail and understanding the reasons behind it will be really important to make sure that local authorities are able to access the funds that there are available, at the moment, to them, and the reasons why, like you said, and they may be varied, but, yes, we can certainly keep the committee updated on that.

Okay. Can I just push on? There are a couple of things I wanted to touch on.

Can I just—?

Yes.

Just on that, anecdotally, I'm hearing that the process is very complicated and it needs simplifying, in terms of the local authorities themselves now. So, that's anecdotal, so we need the evidence, really, I suppose.

Yes.

I wanted to come on to that, because I wonder if there's a common theme with both Leasing Scheme Wales and the empty homes grant, and whether or not there's some kind of streamlining review that is worth doing, just to understand if these can be speeded up a bit.

I certainly think there is scope, as the Cabinet Secretary says, to streamline the grant and loan landscape that we have around empty properties; it's quite a complex landscape for various reasons. I think, to your point about complexity, the enforcement regime is complex and that's why we've been investing quite heavily in training and support for local authorities to understand their enforcement powers and how they can be used. And we are seeing, although we don't necessarily have data on increased numbers of enforcement actions, there is certainly anecdotal evidence that authorities are feeling more confident in those conversations—

We're not asking about enforcement. This is not about enforcement, it's about accessing the grants.

Accessing the grants. I think, undoubtedly, capacity to simplify and streamline, we've not had significant feedback that the individual access loan, the RCT-managed loan, is particularly complex. But if Members are hearing differently, then very happy to take that feedback. And certainly, the team are in constant engagement with RCT in order to understand what's in the pipeline and what is happening there. So, if there are opportunities, absolutely, we'd be open to them.

Okay. The Leasing Scheme Wales scheme, which I think is an excellent scheme, does seem to take quite a long time to get through the process—there are only 233 properties so far.

So, our experience of Leasing Scheme Wales—. Possibly one of the things that we can learn from Leasing Scheme Wales over to empty homes is that we fund resource within the local authority to run and to set up Leasing Scheme Wales. The experience of most local authorities—and Sarah may have more detail on this—is that the first couple of landlords that they bring on board, yes, it's difficult. The legals around the leasing and all of those arrangements are quite complicated, but most authorities, once they've gone through the first couple, then get into a flow and find it much easier. I think in all of the authorities that are early adopters, they are starting to now see increases. There are some challenges in Leasing Scheme Wales, particularly around benefit rates and whether a landlord will see increases, because it's linked to local housing allowance, which is a topic that the committee has talked about on a regular basis. So, yes, it is challenging in the first instance, but it gets better.

Yes, absolutely. And I think just to add to that, certainly, in terms of our projections of the numbers of homes we think are going to come onto the scheme, it's a slow start in the first year or two, but it really ramps up this year, very much from what Emma was saying, because it's embedded in the local authorities now. They understand how it works. And we've tweaked the scheme along the way as well, very much based on the feedback that we've been getting, including the money that we give to local authorities, so that it better reflects the resource implications on the local authority as well. We launched a communications campaign a couple of weeks back to promote the leasing scheme, because we feel that now's the time to do that, because the local authorities are ready to receive that interest. So we're hoping this year now that those numbers will significantly increase.

It would be interesting to hear your reflections on how some of the learning from the individual property grant and the empty homes scheme can be iterated, spread and scaled. So perhaps you can reflect on that.

This was always meant to be a push-pull, where you give a grant to make it easy for somebody to convert, but also you then create a degree of pain for those who are sitting on empty properties and are not doing anything, and that's where the council tax premiums were due to come in. I see that 18 of the 22 local authorities have council tax premiums. I don't have granular information about the rate at which they're being levied. I think eight are applying them at over 100 per cent. Do you have information about the different levels at which those extra premiums are being applied on empties across Wales, and whether or not that varying intervention rate has an effect?

I don't have that to hand here, but we certainly have that data.

We'll make sure we write to the committee. I think Sarah wants to come in on that.

I was just going to say I think it's early days in terms of the impact that some of that is having in terms of those different council tax rates—

Well, some of them have been in place for a number of years. Rhondda Cynon Taf had it in place from the beginning.

Some of them have made more significant increases more recently, so some of the data that we're getting through is starting to look positive, but I think it is quite early in terms of some of the data that we're getting through. But we can certainly provide, as Emma said, the committee with the information that we've got.

I think it would be useful for all of us to know, and for you to reflect on, how useful a lever this is—is there a threshold at which it becomes a very useful policy tool, or is it simply a way of raising extra revenue for local authorities. I think that would be a useful piece of analysis.

It does strike me—I'm not sure if I've muddled my figures up here—that 17 of the local authorities are signed up to the empty home grant scheme, but 18 have got premiums. So there's one local authority that is penalising with an extra premium, but not giving them a way out with a grant. Does that sound right to you?

I don't know which local authority that would be. I'm happy to take that away and have a look at it.

Torfaen.

Is that right?

Torfaen haven't got a council tax premium.

But this is an example of a council that has a premium, but hasn't signed up to the grant.

I don't know which one that is.

It's an outlier, isn't it? I'm just interested, with outliers, in what's going on there. There may be a perfectly valid explanation.

In terms of the budget spend, it's obviously a bit lumpy, as you've described, Sarah, the way these schemes come through the process, and you've had to defer some expenditure into the next financial year. This is obviously a challenge for you from a budget management point of view—how you create a pipeline and how you smooth that through.

If I may, Cabinet Secretary, the profile for the spend was split evenly over the two years. Obviously, that didn't take account of the fact that there is a period of time when you're in set-up and establishing the grant. So the total budget remains the same. I think it's a £50 million commitment, but it is now spread differently over three financial years rather than an equal split over two. So, it's the same investment, but profiled to more appropriately reflect what we believe the spend profile to be.

And that's all manageable, is it? It's not causing particular headaches for the way that you deal with your budget.

It's been managed, yes, and it's been reprofiled.

I just wanted to ask about the progress on the register of empties, which I think was a programme for government commitment. How's that coming along?

We commissioned that independent research, which will help us establish what small businesses would find most useful in terms of accessing empty town-centre properties. The survey and fieldwork have now been completed, and the first draft of the report is expected shortly.

From a quick Google search, there was a contract in April this year for a review into the empty properties enforcement scheme—that's slightly different to the register of empties, though, isn't it?

Oh, right, yes. Sorry.

It's a separate piece of research that we've just had.

Okay. That sounds very useful. When will that be reporting?

Shortly.

'Shortly'. That's a nice, flexible term, isn't it? [Laughter.]

'Shortly' comes after I don't know what month, but—

Okay. That's a euphemism of choice.

To be a little bit more precise, we've received a draft. We're in that period of reviewing the draft, going back to the researchers for refinement, et cetera, so we're close.

And, as you will know, being a former Minister as well, when you get 'shortly', you don't know what that time could be either, so until you see it yourself, you're not sure whether—

It's like most Government seasons, isn't it? So, then, the register of empties, where are things with that?

That research will inform what is deemed most useful by the sector in terms of a register.

Okay. Interesting. And in terms of training and supporting enforcement officers, which goes back, I guess, to the original question about that centre of excellence, best practice, support, what progress is there on that?

In terms of the enforcement and training, as Emma said in one of her responses, through our industry expert, more than 850 councillors and officials across all local authorities in Wales have been trained on using those enforcement measures to deal with empty properties. It covered a broad range of powers and legislation available to deal with poor condition and empty properties that are having a negative impact on our town centres and local communities. All local authorities were involved in that. There is a wide variance in terms of priority, capacity and expertise within local authorities to deal with empty properties. We know that the training has helped, but we don't know, as Emma said, to what extent that has actually led to any enforcement.

Can I just ask—

You've got to be very quick, Lee. We need to move on.

Okay. It's just in terms of town centres in particular. Obviously, there are a couple of different interventions you have there: there's the Transforming Towns loan, and then there's the transitional accommodation capital programme, which could be used by social landlords. How much of a push is there from the Welsh Government to really ramp up getting town-centre flats back into use? I notice, a year ago, when Julie James gave evidence on this, she said she'd been to an event with you, Jayne, in Newport, where it was being seen as a pilot. Is there a push on that?

Yes, absolutely. When the First Minister did her listening exercise, one of the things that she said that had come up time and time again was around town centres. I think it is about how we feel about the place that we live in, so I think it is really important. I am conscious that I'm sat in the room with two former Ministers with responsibility for this policy as well. But, personally, I feel very strongly, coming into post, this has to be something we focus on—

I know it's important. What I'm asking is whether, in terms of those grant schemes, there's a particular emphasis on getting those numbers up in town centres.

Transforming Towns funding has a specific focus on bringing in residential, along with our 'town centre first' policy and the principle that, within a town centre, we're looking for leisure, for learning, for living—all of those aspects. Property loans through Transforming Towns have been pretty successful over the last four years, with nearly 2,000 units of accommodation brought through in town centres. So, yes, there's a specific focus within the town centre and Transforming Towns funding, and some good success rates.

Okay. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Siân.

Thank you, Chair. Turning to second homes, there have been a number of national schemes started to try and tackle the problem of second homes, including council tax premiums, the new threshold for short-term holiday lets, and also the ability for local authorities to use article 4. Do you encourage other local authorities to go about using article 4, which means that you then have to have planning permission for turning a house into a second home?

Diolch, Siân. We have been making some progress in this area. Changes to the planning framework, or article 4, mean that, in future, residential properties will need planning permission to be changed to second homes, and I think that’s an important way to think of this. That offers, potentially, decisive intervention in managing the future numbers.

We’ve supported Cyngor Gwynedd with resource to prepare the evidence and prepare for practical application. The council really has been a forerunner in this area, and it’s been proactive in sharing the learning and any other evidence that’s coming from that.

The decision to apply an article 4 direction does and must rest with the relevant local authority planning association. So, we have to be mindful of that, and, obviously, this is something that we’re keeping a very watchful eye on.

So, at present, you’re not encouraging other local authorities to follow that path. But I understand your point around that.

Cyngor Gwynedd has also been holding the Dwyfor pilot, which has different interventions in this area of housing. How much evaluation work has happened, and when are you likely to publish the findings of that pilot?

Diolch, Siân. We’ve got the pilot in Dwyfor, and the pilot is subject to an independent evaluation. There are three phases of evaluation. We’ve got the initial research, which is data mapping and fieldwork. That’s now concluding, with an interim report to be published in November. The next phase is going to be an evaluation of the process about the interventions, and that’s about to commence and run until October 2025. And then, finally, the phase considering the impact of the interventions and their economic and practical effect will run from October 2025 to October 2026. That final evaluation report will be available in December 2026. We are aware that the issues around this are complex. We don’t have a model from elsewhere to apply in our practical context; that’s why that independent evaluation is really important.

In terms of the national interventions, there are two other things that haven’t yet happened, which were a part of the co-operation agreement, which is work on local mortgages—I don’t know whether you can say anything about that—and then, also, the Bill for statutory registration of holiday homes. I know that the Minister for economy, I think, is working on that, but, clearly, there are implications for you in the housing area specifically on that too. So, can you tell us a little more about those two things that are slightly less progressed than those other interventions that are in place?

Diolch, Siân. I don’t know if officials have any comments, but—

I'm happy to come in on the local mortgages. A considerable amount of work was undertaken looking at the area of local mortgages. I think the key thing to arise out of that, in terms of an actual product, if you like, was the Help to Stay scheme. Although our investigation, as per the programme for government commitment, into whether local mortgages would be deliverable and beneficial didn’t present us with an evidence base that said that there was a gap that the Welsh Government could necessarily fill, it did very helpfully identify the issues that led to the Help to Stay scheme.

On holiday lets, Sarah is closer to some of the detail here, but work is still continuing, looking at both the levy element and a potential licensing scheme, so that work is in train.

Okay, and you're closely involved in that work.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Although, as you say, it's being led by the Cabinet Secretary for economy, obviously, we've got a keen interest and are involved in the governance and the workings, the development of that particular piece of work.

Ok, thank you very much. In the summer, this has been published, 'Empowering communities, strengthening the Welsh language', a report by the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities under the leadership of Dr Simon Brooks. It is a very substantial and thorough report, and there is a section on housing and there are nine recommendations around issues with regard to housing in Welsh-speaking areas. How are you going to go about evaluating this work now, and when will we get a response to these recommendations—what will be the process around it? I don't expect you to respond to the recommendations today, I just want to understand what the process is now in terms of evaluating this work, because it does propose new things in addition to the work that is already happening.

Diolch, Siân. In terms of—. The Welsh language communities housing plan sits with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language. As you say, I have a very keen interest in it, but I think he's scheduled to make an oral statement on Welsh-speaking communities next week. But, obviously, I take a very keen interest, and, as you say, there'll obviously be aspects within that report that we need to look very closely at.

Yes, there are two things, I think. There is the Welsh language communities plan, under the leadership of Jeremy Miles, but this is additional, the commission's work that has been published over the summer. So, I do encourage you to focus on the housing aspects in this, because it brings new things to the table in terms of that local need and trying to summarise that local need and put it into legislation in the planning sector.

There's more work going to be done too, isn't there, and there will be a further report about planning and housing and what needs to change in the planning process in Welsh-speaking areas. So, a lot of work is happening in this field, and it is really important that the Welsh Government takes note of it, therefore.

It's early days, I know.

Yes. No, no, that's absolutely fine, and we will take note of that report, Siân, and the subsequent ones that come out of that as well.

Yes, and just to offer assurance, the team are very much engaged, the team that lead on all of this work, both the commission work and the Simon Brooks report, and they sit on both our strategic group and our operational group in terms of second homes policy, so, it's very much integrated into the work that we're doing, and the teams work really closely together. And, as the Cabinet Secretary says, the statement next week will be on Welsh-speaking communities in its broadest sense, so I'm sure will capture the Simon Brooks report as well.

Yes, thank you, because some of the recommendations, some of the findings here, they're more than just about Welsh-speaking communities, they could be relevant to communities across Wales, so, it's important that we do have that national perspective on this work. So, thank you.

Turning to decarbonisation, Chair, yes?

Yes, thanks, Siân.

So, the UK Government intends to raise minimum EPC standards that will apply to privately rented properties in Wales. Will that happen from a Welsh perspective also?

Diolch, Siân. We're aware that the UK Government has made that commitment. In Wales, social landlords have until 31 March 2030 to achieve the higher energy and efficiency standards set out in our Welsh Government quality standard 2023.

Welsh social landlords are already in the process of improving their stock to provide quality, healthy and energy-efficient homes to Welsh tenants through that quality standard. So, we are aware of what's happening at the UK level, but we've got our programme here as well. Sorry, Emma.

I'm talking about private rented properties in terms of EPC standards.

Oh, sorry. Yes, not the—

I know that the work is happening in the social housing sector, but what will be happening to private rented properties in terms of the EPC standards that are required?

Diolch. I can confirm the minimum energy efficiency standard regulations cover England and Wales, so a regulatory change there would apply in Wales as well. So, we wait to engage on the detail of those regulations.

So, it looks likely that landlords in the private rented sector will have to conform with those regulations too, because, although housing is devolved, that aspect hasn't, perhaps, been devolved. Is that the situation?

It is an anomaly—when I can get the word out, sorry—because, yes, it is about housing, but it is about energy efficiency. That's why it is not devolved to us here in Wales and the UK Government makes regulations that cover both England and Wales in that regard. But I think it's fair to say it's our ambition to see the private rented sector energy efficiency improved. There will be a challenge across England and Wales in terms of supporting the sector to achieve those standards in the same way as there is in the social housing sector. The ambition is the same. How we achieve that, particularly with older housing stock in Wales, is a challenge.

If you could continue with the decarbonisation, Siân, and then we'll conclude after that.

Okay.

Could you share the details of the route-map for decarbonising residential housing, and when is it likely to be published?

Diolch, Siân. So, we've been working to develop our approach to housing decarb that will form the basis of our policy package for the housing pathway for carbon budget 3. The work obviously builds on the heat strategy for Wales, which sets out our clear commitment to a low-carbon heating source. Our plans focus on the enabling environment needed for decarb policy in Wales to succeed.

Regarding the publication of the route-map, it is complex, and we're, at the moment, looking at the best way to engage with the sector, so we are hoping and I will update the committee in that way later this term.

Diolch yn fawr, Siân. Altaf. Altaf Hussain.

Altaf, we're unable to hear you—. Oh, please carry on.

Okay. How will the Welsh Government prevent unintended consequences of decarbonisation such as happened with the Warm Homes scheme, which damaged properties in my region?

Cabinet Secretary.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Obviously, we're keen to make sure that we're doing everything that we possibly can to put decarbonisation on a good footing, but I don't know if there's anything particular to add on the previous schemes that have happened in the past.

I think the Member is quite right—thank you, Cabinet Secretary—that there are lessons that need to be learnt from previous exercises. That's one of the reasons for, for example, the new Green Homes initiative that's being launched through the Development Bank of Wales this week, I believe—

Next week.

Next week. It looks at how we can make sure that there is consistency and independence in the advice that is provided so that we lower the risk of people applying the wrong strategies to their homes. Each home is different, so the approach we've taken in the optimised retrofit programme and in decarbonising our social housing stock is looking at individual homes and what is going to work, and that's not just about the fabric, it's often also about the way that the home is used. So, a lot of lessons to be learnt, and really important that we bring those across and ensure that the work is the right work for the property, the right work for the inhabitants of that property, and is well executed and to quality.

Okay, Altaf? Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much. That concludes our first scrutiny session, then, on housing. You will be sent a transcript, Cabinet Secretary, to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Committee will break, then, for 10 minutes, until 10:55.