Equality and Social Justice Committee

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee, and our second session this afternoon. I'd like to welcome Nerys Bourne and Emma Benger. Nerys, you're the director of customer strategy and service development and Emma Benger is the Working Wales project manager—both for Careers Wales. And also, I'm very pleased to welcome Terry Mills, disabled people's employment champion for the Welsh Government. Very interested to hear from you as well. So, just briefly, to start us off, what, in your view, are the main barriers to work for disabled people, and how have these either improved or got worse over the last few years? Nerys, do you want to start?

Yes, I'm happy to start on that one. Potentially, one of the challenges, really, for people in work with disabilities is the constant change to the way we work. If you think about the advancements in technology, hybrid working, we all of us have to adapt and change, and that can be a bit more challenging for people with disabilities.

Oh, I think it's more challenging for people like me than it is for my granddaughter. [Laughter.] Isn't that a way of actually enhancing the ability of some people to work?

It can do. It depends on the individual, doesn't it? When we talk about disability, there's such a wide range of different disabilities. But it can be a barrier for people, I think.

I think another barrier is that employers have to adapt and give flexibility to people with disabilities who may be dealing with health conditions, and ongoing health conditions—maybe attending appointments. That could be a barrier as well. I think we've heard in previous committees about unconscious bias as well—whether that's intentional or not intentional. That could be on the part of the employer or their colleagues who work with them. Rurality is an issue for us in Wales, and transport not being available and accessible, and the cost of transport—that's definitely a barrier. I think we've heard about employers not being able to make reasonable adjustments as well—that that can be an ongoing barrier. It could be access to buildings, to specialist equipment, to sign language, it could, again, be IT software. The other barrier could be that people become disabled whilst they're in work; that could be due to health, illness, or an accident. And some organisations have quite strict or rigid absence policies, which could be quite challenging and cause a barrier, unintentionally. And I think, potentially, another barrier for people is having that lack of confidence to go for promotion or to change roles—that they might feel that they haven't got the skills or the knowledge to do that, and that would be challenging for them and the employer.

Okay. So, you say that employers have to adapt, to make reasonable adjustments, but not being able to make reasonable adjustments. How does that fit with the Equality Act 2010 and the positive action that is required to accommodate people who may have a disability?

There are legal requirements for employers to make those adjustments. I think it's potentially lack of information, lack of knowledge, and lack of confidence, and, potentially, worrying about the cost of making those adjustments for people; having access to somebody who can give them advice on that could be a challenge for employers.

Okay. And lastly from me, before I hand over to other Members, the disability employment gap is consistently higher in Wales than in the UK as a whole, and, in some areas of Wales, like Neath Port Talbot and Blaenau Gwent, the gap is as high as 40 per cent. So, through your work across Wales, how does that reflect on and inform the way you ensure that we are moving towards a society where everybody has the dignity of work? Do you want to start, Terry?

Yes, if I may, but if I could also come in on the previous question as well, because I have a very different take on the barriers to disabled people into employment. The main barrier is attitudinal, normally from employers, through lack of information, lack of knowledge. An example: when I first got into the role and I was speaking to an employer, a food manufacturer, with 400 people employed in production, and he said to me, 'My premises are not suitable for disabled people.'

On the basis of what?

And then, after talking to him, I found out what he thought a disabled person was, and the picture in his head was a wheelchair user. Wheelchair users make up 6 per cent—regular wheelchairs users.

Six per cent.

Six per cent of disabled people in Wales are regular wheelchair users. But this thought that, 'This is a disabled person', it's understandable—the blue badge, the accessible toilets use the symbol—but we have such a breadth of disabled people with all sorts of different impairments, he will already be employing a considerable amount without realising it. So, I think a lot of them are the barriers that employers put up themselves, because they don't know what a disabled person is, they're not comfortable with dealing with them. Reasonable adjustments, most of the time they cost nothing: the average is £75 for a reasonable adjustment.

There are all sorts of myths out there that are still around, unfortunately, with a lot of employers, like, 'Disabled people will take more time off sick'; it's actually the reverse to that. 'They'll be less productive'; that's shown to be untrue. There are all sorts of myths that still prevail, so it's a matter of changing the hearts and minds, it's a culture change, which will take a long time, but we need to get on with that culture change. So, it's more about educating, working with employers, to get them to realise that disabled people, we come in all different shapes and sizes, and most of us, actually, have non-visible impairments. We walk among you, and we're increasing all the time.

Since I've been in this role, there are more than 100,000 new disabled people in Wales. We're now up to 27 per cent of the working-age population in Wales being disabled. So, it's working with employers to break down these barriers that they have, and I think that's the issue, as opposed to small things about reasonable adjustments. It's working with them to change a mindset. It is hearts, minds, changing actions, changing how they employ a disabled person, that it is a positive experience for most employers.

And so, am I right in thinking that you're one of five disability champions?

Yes.

So, how do you get around the whole of Wales?

Well, there are five disabled people's employment champions employed by Welsh Government, and we work with larger businesses with 251 and above employees, plus the public sector and education. We have two colleagues at Business Wales, disabled people's employment advisers, who work with SMEs around Wales, and what we try to do is we try to work with a DPEC to many, not one on one, because there are 0.25 million active enterprises in Wales.

So, last week, we had meetings with the Joint Council for Wales, so there were 100 people there from all the local authorities and the trade unions, so we're speaking to many, not just to one, and we're working with those that will work with us. So, that's how we're doing it: we're trying to work with umbrella organisations, with groups of businesses, rather than on a one-to-one basis, because, obviously, capacity wise, that would not be great.

I understand. We'll come back to you. Emma Benger, can you just tell us how this much bigger employment gap in certain parts of Wales and, indeed, the challenge to make us at least as good as the average in the UK, how does that influence how you approach your work?

Well, across Working Wales, we're very aware of some of the lower economic areas across Wales—Blaenau Gwent and Neath Port Talbot, as you've just mentioned. In Neath Port Talbot, we're doing a significant amount of work at the moment to obviously support the Tata Steel redundancies and the workers from there, but I think the ripple effect from that goes throughout the community, so it's how do we get the message out there that people can access our services and what we can do to support.

We try and make sure we have a place-based support to our provision, so it's making sure that people who are redundant or people with a disability who have been impacted by that redundancy are aware of where they can come for that support and what's available to them. I think the biggest challenge for somewhere like Neath Port Talbot—the worry is where are the jobs going to be. There are developments going to be for what they're going to do on that site, but it's not necessarily immediately; it's a few years down the line. So, where do these people go in the meantime? What skills are they going to need? How do they upskill? Where do they go to retrain? And where do they find employment in the meantime?

So, I think, as a careers service, we work with these customers to just get a benchmark of what their skills are. Labour market information is very important when we have that discussion with them, where they can go for retraining and upskilling, and then what measures we can put in place to get people back into work as quickly as possible.

Okay. But sticking with the disability employment gap, how do we actually improve our performance generally across society, of ensuring that every disabled person who is able to work has that dignity of work?

I think it's making sure that people have that awareness, that they know where to come for support. I don't think they always know where to go. I think there are lots of organisations out there that do really good work, but not necessarily in a joined-up way. I think we need to do more collaboration, more locally and regionally, for people to know where to go to access support, and for us to all work more collaboratively with employers to spread the message, like Terry has said, that a disabled person doesn't just look like somebody in a wheelchair, that there's a wide spectrum of disability, and the advantage of having a diverse workforce. So, I think, again, it's education for employers to try and reduce that gap. I also think we need to do a bit more of a joined-up approach with organisations and agencies that can support people, so that they realise what reasonable adjustments can be made for them. A lack of understanding, a lack of information and education, I think, is the key, and a lack of good employment opportunities. So, again, employer knowledge there to be improved, I think.

Fine. Mick Antoniw, would you like to come in at this point?

Yes. You've answered some of the points I wanted to ask about, but you mention an awful lot about joined-up working, and I wondered if you could just say a little bit more. I mean, there's a number of organisations out there—Agoriad, ELITE Supported Employment and so on. How well do you work with those organisations? What is the structure on which you're able to work jointly? Is it all coincidental or dependent on the individual, or is there a framework within which you're able to work more collectively to pool practice and common input?

Okay. Sometimes it's coincidental because we could have any customer come through the door and all their circumstances are different and every person is different. So, sometimes, it is coincidental that we have to advocate on that customer's behalf to find the right organisation or the right support agency for us to refer that customer on for support, but we do have a team within Working Wales of stakeholder engagement advisers. They're a very small team—very similar numbers to the disability champions—and their role, really, is to actively link with some of these agencies, just for them to understand the wider offer of Careers Wales, but also for us to understand the support that they can put in place for people.

So, when we are working with customers with disabilities, we're linked up to these agencies already. We do successfully refer to ELITE and we're linked up with the Department for Work and Pensions. We do lots of events in collaboration with them as well to raise awareness, disability employment awareness events. They're ongoing now, actually, through October. So, we do link extensively with a lot of networks and agencies, however, it's a small team so then, sometimes, we have to drive the support, depending on the need of our customers, and we rely on this very small team to do some of that networking for us. We link in with Business Wales, like Terry also does, and there are lots of agencies there, and sometimes it's coincidental, but we do try and have a broad plan of the organisations we link with, especially the larger organisations.

On another point, I think one of the difficulties for us, sometimes, is that the landscape of support agencies across Wales does change quite considerably. So, it's not always as consistent as we would like. As soon as we've developed a partnership with a particular organisation, within 12 months or two years, they've gone, and another project has come into the area. Then you have to build relationships again to get to understand what that project is for. So, I think, again, more consistency in this space would be very helpful across the landscape in Wales, and it's very patchy, depending where that customer is from. So, sometimes, it's a bit of a postcode lottery as well in terms of what they can access. Yes, thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Okay. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much. I was going to ask you some questions, Terry, if that's okay. You've already referred to the fact that one of the biggest barriers is employers' attitudes, and we've been told that consistently in the evidence we've taken, particularly towards people with a learning disability, which has come over very strongly. So, could you tell us a bit more about your experience of working with employers, and are there any sectors that are more difficult to work with than others?

There are sectors that are more difficult to work with: traditionally, things like construction. The mindset of construction. There are some really good employers out there, but they tend to be in the minority. There are certain traditional industries who employ a lot of disabled people. Construction, for instance, have a lot of people with hearing loss. If you've worked with jackhammers for 30 years, you develop hearing loss, but you're already on the job. Getting a job with them is harder than being in the job and acquiring your impairment and continuing to work, and it's the same with quite a lot.

On learning disabilities, we do a lot with them. It's great to visit ELITE to see and show what can be done. Norman Industries in Pembrokeshire. There's a lot of good work going on. The data's not great on that, which they collect in England. It's partial, which doesn't really help. I think Mencap has said 27 per cent employment on their latest survey, but it's still really low compared to many other impairment groups.

There are some great supported internships as a way in. There was one recently at Asda in Queensferry. They did a project search for the first time. They had a cohort of eight young people with a learning disability, and they were there for nine months. And at the end of the nine months, all eight of the interns were offered and accepted permanent paid roles. So, something like that, as a stepping stone in to work, where it's actually leading to work, as opposed to—. Unfortunately, a lot of people with a learning disability end up in constant volunteering roles, and not moving forward. So, it can be a programme, whether it's supported internships, supported employment, to get in to paid work, for there to be an end to it as opposed to just endless volunteering, unless that's what the individual wants. But we need to do more, definitely, for people with learning disabilities, to give them the opportunities and to share their lived experience.

I note that there are quite a few in health boards at the moment who are going through supported internships and quite a few getting jobs. The amount that they can bring of lived experience, and possibly within Welsh Government, in housing, in education, in transport, only the people with those lived experiences can tell you what it's like for a person with a learning disability to access those services. No matter how good a civil servant is, unless you’ve got that lived experience, you cannot have that insight of an actual service user.

So, you would say there are some good employers there—

Yes.

—but a lot more needs to be done.

Definitely, yes.

Yes. And that leads me on to my next question, again, Terry, to you, if it’s all right: Disability Wales said that the disability employment champion is an excellent scheme but has limited capacity. Would you agree with that?

Yes, because there are five of us—we cover the whole of Wales. And that is one reason why our strategy is working with the many, not with the few, to get the most out of the number of us there are. So, yes, obviously, we’re restricted by capacity, but we—

Yes. So, if there were more champions, what would you do differently?

Well, at the moment, we’ve got five real key objectives, one of which is engaging with employers. We would be able to do more employer engagement and the one-to-one work. We could do more partnership working as well, and you can get closer ties with some of the really large organisations, like the health boards, and work closer with the local authorities, but, then, also get into those sectors that are struggling, or don’t appear to be employing many disabled people, to try and get in there and give it the time that it needs to have the conversations, to explain about the social model, that it’s a good thing, and to also get the business case for employing disabled people. There’s a really good business case for employing disabled people. There are 237,000 of us who are economically inactive in Wales. It’s a great pool of talent, experience, expertise. Eighty-three per cent of them acquired their impairment as adults, so they’ve got experience.

So, it would give more time to have more contact with more employers to help change those hearts and minds and get those positive outcomes, and, hopefully, reduce the disability employment gap. It’s come down 2 per cent since we’ve been in post. And I’m not claiming any of that percentage for ourselves, because Welsh Government doesn’t control most of the levers. They don’t include employment law, equality law, benefits—all of those things. We do not hold the levers. All we can do is change the attitudes of the people who employ people in Wales.

Thank you. And, then, a general question, which you’ve already partially covered: we’ve talked about reasonable adjustments—what is needed? What action is needed to improve employers’ understanding of their legal duty?

I think, once again, it’s down to attitudes. It’s a legal duty, but some of the research we’ve seen is that one of the reasons they don’t employ in the first place is the potential for reasonable adjustments that they might need—what they think will be really expensive adaptations. You’ve got Access to Work, there, to help with the cost of that for most companies. But most reasonable adjustments cost nothing. It’s about doing things differently.

Prior to COVID—. I’ve had conversations with the Trades Union Congress, and, prior to COVID, the most commonly requested reasonable adjustment was perhaps some flexible working, and, perhaps, even, some working from home. And the vast majority of employers said that this was not reasonable—‘We’re not going to accept that. The IT systems couldn’t possibly cope with people working from home. And how could a manager possibly manage you unless you’re in the same room?’ And, then, overnight, there are millions of us working very productively from home, safely. And, for many disabled people, that was empowering.

And now the hybrid working—remote working, hybrid working—for many, not all, disabled people—some people are more comfortable going into the office environment or the work environment—provides an option that takes away some of the barriers. If you’re talking about transport, housing—. I was speaking to somebody who was working in the insurance field in Cardiff, on the outskirts of Cardiff, and she was working three days a week because she had chronic fatigue syndrome. The effort of getting up, getting dressed, medication, going down and catching the bus, going to work—. She worked Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays, because she needed a day in between to recover, not from the work, but the effort of getting to work and getting home from work. COVID came and they asked her if she'd do an extra hour working from home, an extra day. Yes, she was more than happy to do that. A few months later, she went up to five days a week. Since then, she's become a manager. She goes into the office as and when they have team meetings.

So, reasonable adjustments that five years ago were not reasonable are now pretty standard requests in many, many workplaces. So, there are options. It's about doing things differently—that flexibility of work—and that's not just for disabled people. That really works for people with caring responsibilities. Our team doesn't have a meeting at 3 o'clock on a day, because our colleagues are going and doing the school run, and then they finish the work when they come back. It's opened things up for disabled people more than others. So, there are real positives, but it's getting employers to open up and consider these possibilities—all of these disabled people, all of this talent—and ways of doing things slightly differently.

Thank you very much.

Joel James.

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I hope you don't mind, I've got a couple of questions, but I think they're all basically aimed at Nerys, if that's okay. Sorry. But if anyone else thinks, 'Oh, I can answer this,' please do intervene. I wanted to get an idea, in general terms, of the pathway of a young disabled person from school and how they would then proceed, then, from school into further education or into higher education, or into an apprenticeship or into training. I was just wondering if you could highlight how they would progress—so, the pathway, really.

The pathway, yes, absolutely, I'm happy to answer that. Just to start off, I just wanted to emphasise that ALN and disability are two separate things—they don't mean the same thing. A person could have a disability and not have any additional learning needs, or vice versa.

Currently, we're working with two systems in terms of supporting young people with additional learning needs. There's the old SEN code of practice that's still running alongside the new ALN process, if you like. So, we're in the last year now of the SEN code of practice, so, they are young people who are currently in year 14 in schools. So, Careers Wales would support those young people with their transition planning. We'd be responsible for developing a learning and skills plan for those young people, and that LSP—it's short for a learning and skills plan—would include their training and educational needs, so the support that they'd need as they transition into FE college or into a work-based learning provision. So, it's based upon the views of that young person and would have input from their families and other professionals.

Under the old SEN, the careers adviser would take the lead, really, on making sure that that young person would have a smooth transition into college. They would do things like arrange visits to the college, go on taster days, to make sure that they're familiar with the layout before they start their course. So, under the ALN system, which has been brought in under the new Act, the responsibility for that transition has moved over to the school or to the local authority—so, whoever maintains the IDP, the individual development plan. So, it's taken the responsibility away from the careers adviser in a way. Again, there will still be transition reviews. That will usually start in year 9, and that would be attended by professionals like Careers Wales, social services, health, depending on the needs of the young person.

So, the role of the careers advisers does vary now in terms of how the local authority are approaching that process. One thing to emphasise is that our offer is there. The support of Careers Wales and the careers adviser is there throughout the summer, whereas, if you think of schools, teachers won't be available to provide that transition support there. So that's generally the path that would be taken. I don't know if you want me to extend any of that.

No. I hope you don't mind, but I've got a couple of follow-up questions on that, though. You mentioned there that one of the differences there is that, obviously, during the summer holidays, the school can't really provide that transition support, basically at what is quite a crucial time. How can we overcome that, because that seems like a failing to me, then, and it's quite worrying? How can that be addressed, then? Is it something that needs to be addressed, or does the current help from yourselves take that burden up, if that makes sense?

The other thing, then, is that you mentioned there the changes that have come in since the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018 and how a lot of it now, as you said, is transferred to the schools to sort out. I just wanted to get a better idea of the impact that that's had on you, then, and then your ability to support learners, but then also their families and that.

Okay. So, going back to your first point around that support during the summer holidays, that's a key part of our work and we've always done that work. So, it hasn't changed, really. Our approach would have that caseloading approach and we make sure that we're there during that key time of transition. We work very closely with families. We've got a specialist team of ALN advisers, and building that relationship with families is key to what we've always done. And that hasn't changed with the introduction of ALNET. So, potentially there are gaps in the provision available for young people with ALN, and that could be due to colleges not being able to have the resource for specific requirements. For example, we had a young person who had a hearing impairment and needed a signer in the college. The college couldn't recruit anybody in time, and then that young person couldn't start college as they should have done.

If I may, Chair, I've got two other questions, then. I know, for example, that a disabled young person now can have access to careers advice and work experience from the age of 14. I just wanted to get an idea of how that is working out, really, if that makes sense, or what sort of impact that has had, and what more could be done to make sure that they have that support. You mentioned there, and it's been mentioned in previous evidence sessions, that there's just a lack of availability out there in terms of help, in terms of work placements, in terms of voluntary positions. But as you mentioned yourself, then, there's a shortage of BSL interpreters or support workers to help and that. I just wanted to get your views on that, then.

In terms of careers advice at 14, under the SEN code of practice, it was a requirement that Careers Wales would start working with the young person at the age of 14. And that would mean starting that careers guidance process as well as attending transitional reviews. Under the ALNET process, it does encourage additional learning needs co-ordinators to provide impartial careers guidance for young people with ALN, but it doesn't specifically say when. So, you may get different approaches from different schools. With the ALNET process, there are 22 local authorities, which will have 22 different approaches to how they deliver this, and that has brought its challenges in how we work within that system. But we've got careers advisers based in every mainstream school and in special schools. So, the careers advice is available to all young people, and we would prioritise young people with ALN as part of our prioritisation.

The other question I have, then, if that's okay, Chair, is about the apprenticeship finders and how they're tasked, basically, with going out there to find, basically, apprenticeships that might not necessarily even be advertised. And I just wanted to get a bit of an idea about the impact they've had and what more could be done to support or maybe even to expand on that, then.

Okay. So, the apprenticeship finders was something we were asked to do as part of the inclusive apprenticeships disability action plan, so we're going back to 2018, really, when we introduced that role. And to just kind of pilot that, I suppose, we had two people specifically become apprenticeship finders for us, and we did have relative success with just those two specific roles. Part of their role as well was to source apprenticeships from employers who were happy and willing to take on a disabled young person, but also it expanded a little bit more than that in terms of who were the customers already on our case loads, looking for apprenticeships and looking for work. So, it was almost a bit of a matching service, an early-day approach to matching customers with work.

As time progressed, we were then asked by Welsh Government at the time to really look a bit further into what does job matching really look like: do we have the capability to really look at someone's preferred occupation and skill and match to that demand of employment out there in the economy? So, the role expanded a little bit, and we had a job-matching pilot, I suppose, for 12 months. Unfortunately, that pilot was during COVID, so it wasn't the best time to test that. However, again, we did have great success. So, during that nine months, we sourced approximately 13,000 vacancies, of which about 10 per cent were apprenticeships, and we did manage to match people into those areas of work.

What we have today, though, is something very different again. We've taken the best parts, I suppose, of the apprenticeship finders and that job matching, and we now have a vacancy service as part of Working Wales. So, customers can subscribe to the vacancy service, whether they are customers of ours or other customers; non-Careers Wales customers can subscribe to that. We ask them for their preferred occupational areas, whether they are looking for an apprenticeship, and what their skills are, for example. And then we have a team, as I mentioned earlier, of stakeholder engagement advisers, and we also have a team of business engagement advisers who work actively with employers, and some of that is to source vacancies for us. And what we try and do then is match those people to those vacancies.

And the vacancy bulletin, once you've subscribed, you have a weekly tailored bulletin. So, everybody has at least 30 vacancies based on their preferred occupational choice or travel distance to work, and then they can have access to the wider suite of vacancies that we have as well. The vacancy bulletin goes over and above the apprenticeship vacancy service. There are more apprenticeships sourced on our vacancy bulletin than there are on the apprenticeship vacancy service. But we have the systems, they now talk to each other, so if they're on the AVS, they come over to our vacancy bulletin and then we source over and above that as well.

Do you find, then, that there's a wide variety of apprenticeships open for those with a disability, or does it tend to be the same fields?

I would say there's a smaller percentage open to those with a disability. I think, again, it comes down to some of the points that we've raised already in terms of a lack of information and education for employers.

There are a lot of apprenticeships out there, but not specifically perhaps advertising or recruiting in a different way that would attract someone with a disability. Maybe they feel it would be slightly out of reach, possibly, so some of the recruitment practice around the apprenticeships as well—we need to think about how we could tweak that to make the vacancies more attractive or more accessible for someone with a disability.

But again, it comes down to some points that were raised earlier about re-educating employers there, I guess, in how they advertise those vacancies. But there is a lower percentage, absolutely, yes.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Before I move on to Sioned Williams, I wonder if I could just ask Nerys Bourne: the brochure that was sent to us in advance of this meeting talks about the services that Careers Wales provides, including support for schools, colleges, training providers and universities to deliver

'motivated, inspired learners with clear plans for their careers,'

et cetera. Unfortunately, one of the people we took evidence from last week was Gerraint Jones-Griffiths, from Learning Disability Wales, who was the lead ambassador for Engage to Change, and he said far too many of the young people he came across with disabilities had never been asked what they wanted to do. So, I wonder what your role was to ensure that all schools asked every single pupil what they wanted to do after they left school.

We were having a discussion about this earlier around that comment, and we were scratching our heads, really, as to what do we need to do to make sure that young people remember that they've had interaction with Careers Wales, because we do prioritise young people who do have additional learning needs, and we would see the majority if they are present in school. We do other activities as well. We do careers fairs; we make sure that we bring employers into schools to talk to young people. So, there's a breadth of things that we do. Whether young people are not making the connection then as to, 'Nobody asked me what I want to do', I'm not sure. In year 10—

It doesn't always lead on to placements, though, does it?

In year 10, we will do a career check survey with all pupils in schools, and we get about an 80 per cent response rate to that, so that gives us an idea of what young people's aspirations are and what they want to do when they go on from education. So, we've got that kind of data available to us, so I'm not sure that—. There is something we need to do. Careers Wales, we deliver careers guidance in schools, so we're in mainstream schools, we're in pupil referral units, we work with colleges, but we're one part of a bigger picture. I think it's more about what you were saying around that collaboration. We need to work with schools, with partners, with employers, with parents to make sure those messages are getting through to young people, and they're getting consistent, accurate and up-to date information that will help them move forward and make positive transitions.

Okay, thank you. Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I have a couple of questions regarding making progress in terms of disabled people's employment, in terms of what the Welsh Government and the UK Government are doing. So, we have known for several years that Welsh Government has a disability rights taskforce, and that includes a working group looking at employment and income. Could you tell us whether you have engaged with that group at all, and if so or otherwise, to be honest, what are your comments on that piece of work?

Would you like me to start?

Yes.

We are part of the disabled people's employment group, which is part of that taskforce that you mentioned. That is an executive group, I would say, where there is representation from Welsh Government and other agencies, and it's a way of raising awareness of different strategies and to have an opportunity to discuss good practice. So, that is one group that we as Careers Wales are involved with, but we've had very little engagement with the group that you mentioned. I am aware of it, but Careers Wales as a national agency isn't engaged with that, and I think perhaps we should be, and perhaps that is something that we and you, as a committee, could look at in terms of how we collaborate as agencies on this agenda.

We have certainly heard evidence, to be honest, that there is a great number of groups, working groups and taskforces relating to this, but there's been very little progress, has there not, so that does strike a consistent chord, to be honest, in terms of the evidence we've heard. Following on from that, could you give us a view on the impact of the Welsh Government's employment support initiatives, the current ones for disabled people? Are there any gaps or opportunities to develop more effective support? What's your view on that?

If I could just come in and hopefully clarify the different groups and what they're dealing with. The disability rights taskforce had an income and employment working group. That has now finished. It was a task and finish group and that finished when the recommendations from the taskforce went to Welsh Government. There is an ongoing group, the disabled people's employment working group, which has existed since 2018, which was originally created to look at supported apprenticeships but has since widened out to cover all aspects of disabled people's employment. That is co-chaired by the DPECs—

Sorry. The DPECs?

The disabled people's employment champions. Sorry.

Thank you.

And disabled people's organisations are on there, third sector organisations, employers and impairment-specific groups, and that meets four times a year and the DWP is invited and gives updates. So, that's an ongoing group for disabled people's organisations, people working in the sector, to look at what's happening and how we make it better—suggestions to bring forward with programmes and also initiatives and learning from each other. So, that's a really positive group.

So, could I just have some clarity? On which group does Careers Wales sit? Is it that group that's existed since 2018?

Yes. The disabled people's employment group.

Yes. Okay. But, in terms of you, in terms of Careers Wales—. Obviously, it does sound as if there are people who are on both groups, people like the DPECs and so on, but in terms of you as a national agency, you're not aware, or you haven't seen evidence of any kind of collaboration or bridging between both those groups.

Yes. That's what I was saying. Yes.

Okay. Right. I just wanted to check that. Great. Thank you. We have heard a number of views about some of the UK Government's key interventions and those views were quite mixed, for example, on Access to Work and Disability Confident. Could you let us know what your experience has been of these schemes and do you have any suggestions on how they should be improved?

Yes. Quite happy to. Access to Work is often described as DWP's best-kept secret. When it's working and working well, it does really well. The issue is the delay; it's the implementation of it, the delay. It's a 26-week delay, currently, to get Access to Work. The programme itself is a really good system and it's well resourced, but if you can't get it and get it in good time, that is where the problem lies. We hold quarterly meetings with DWP and it is always on the agenda to try to find out what is happening with it, when it's going to improve, how we can mitigate it and can people claim, at least in principle, early to actually get the support. So, Access to Work is very good, it just needs sorting out in the actual delivery of it. It's an operational issue as opposed to a problem with the programme, I believe.

Disability Confident—

Sorry. Could I just ask one further question on that? We have heard people say that employers—. You mentioned 'best-kept secret' there. It's obvious that there is a problem in terms of its implementation, the waiting list, and so on, but is there enough awareness of it, in your experience, in terms of employers?

I don't think there's an enormous amount of information and many employers don't know about it, but the programme is to the individual not to the employer. So, Access to Work has to be applied for by the individual, not by the employer. So, it does need better marketing, better information out to employers so that they're aware of it, because many of the individuals won't necessarily know themselves that it's available to them.

And that could perhaps cut across that attitude of fear that some employers have because they would know that support would be available for the employee. Great, thank you. You were going to talk about Disability Confident.

Disability Confident is one of those journeys that you'd say, 'Well, if we were going to start, we wouldn't start from here'. It isn't perfect by any means. Certainly, level 1 and level 2 are a good stepping stone. At least it shows that you want to do the right thing, but levels 1 and 2—. The expectations within that aren't too taxing, to say the least. They're also self-assessment, so, in some ways, you could argue that it's like marking your own homework. But level 3, leader status—. Our work plan isn't getting people onto Disability Confident at the lower levels; our work plan, particularly with the public sector in Wales and the larger employers, is getting them up to level 3 leader. At level 3 leader, they have to voluntarily report the numbers of disabled employees they have, and the percentage, and on a year-on-year basis, so you see how they're doing. They also have to provide guaranteed interview schemes for disabled people. So, there's a lot more. And also, they don't mark their own homework on that. To become a leader, they need to be validated by another Disability Confident leader.

There's also the problem—I don't know if it's pan-UK, but it's within Wales—that there are fewer than 40 leaders at the moment, and we want to increase that by a lot. But, for small organisations, to find somebody to validate it—. There are companies out there who want to charge thousands of pounds for doing this. Now, to me, that isn't what it should be about; other leaders should be doing that free of charge. The DPECs, the disabled people's employment champions have been doing—. We've started—. We can now validate those leaders, so we can go and provide that service to companies and businesses who want to become leaders. We can go and go through the validation process with them, so there isn't a cost on the company. If they want to do the right thing, we can help them do it.

So, if I've understood correctly, you would like to see this scheme being something more serious, if you like, so that it would be something that would require more commitment, that you would have to have proper evidence, and that you would be evaluated properly on that too. That's where the value would be in that, in having some sort of kitemark scheme like that. Is that what you think?

Yes, definitely. We validated the Welsh Government programme—the disabled people's employment champions. I think it was 86 pages of evidence, so there is a lot of evidence in there on policies, procedures, numbers. And, yes, we'd like to do that. And what we're also currently scoping out is creating a forum for leaders in Wales, so that we can bring those leaders together to learn from each other, to share good practice, and also to make it more aspirational to actually be a leader in Disability Confident in Wales.

Thank you. I have one final question. We have heard from Learning Disability Wales, and they called for a national job coaching strategy, which would mean that disabled people could have supported employment. Would you agree with this? Would this be better than what we have at the moment?

Job coaches are really handy—we see it in all the supported employment programmes—and really help the individual, and Access to Work can provide job coaches in any role. I think there is a process there, but job coaches are really, really helpful, not just for that group but for many individuals. Job coaches are being used around Wales. I know we mentioned ELITE, Norman Industries. The supported internships run by local colleges and businesses, they all use job coaches. North Wales Together are using job coaches. Job coaches are essential for that group to help them through that journey.

Diolch, Cadeirydd.

If I could just add to that, Sioned, I agree with Terry's comments, but I also think that there is perhaps an opportunity to introduce that role at an earlier stage, when people are in that transition period from education to FE or whatever stream they choose to go into, so that they have that support and so that that support then continues when they're undertaking a college course or are in employment. I think that should be started earlier.

Joel asked me a question earlier on work experience, but I don't think I fully answered that question. I do think that we need a clearer strategy on providing work experience opportunities to young people when they're in school too. There is no strategy. There isn't a single route that's followed across Wales. It's quite patchy and it varies from one local authority area and one school to another. I think there's an opportunity to bring that into education too.

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Okay. There are various questions that we may need to follow up outside the meeting.

Thank you very much. I know that time is tight, so I'll just ask two questions, if I may. First of all, could I ask what kind of measures are in place to ensure that you close this disability employment gap? And what kind of data do you use to monitor and evaluate? And the third part: do you have any targets in place to monitor and evaluate too? So, how do you monitor, what data do you use, and do you have targets in place? Thank you very much.

I'll begin, and then if you want to come in afterwards—. In terms of the monitoring, we do have a monitoring system that is very robust at Careers Wales. We set targets or KPIs for ourselves in terms of measuring our work. We do pieces of work in terms of evaluating how we offer our services to various customers in order to identify whether there's any way of improving the way that we do things. We do an evaluation exercise on an annual basis in order to identify areas of good practice and also things to improve. We run focus groups with customers in order to receive feedback from them, too. So, we have done that with a group of young people with ALN and we asked them what they find useful and what has helped them during that transition period. The sort of things that they said were that they appreciated having work experience—that was something that was important to them. Visiting colleges also helped them. They enjoyed the next steps—we do a careers fair in special schools and they enjoyed being able to discuss with employers and with former pupils to see what's ahead of them, in a way. So, that's what we do in terms of monitoring. Also, we have Estyn coming to visit us regularly, and we also meet with Estyn to discuss how we develop our services too. So, it is quite comprehensive in terms of what we do.

Do you have any targets? If I could look at Careers Wales first, do you have targets now or for the future in order to reduce that gap?

In terms of the gap, that is part of our NEET agenda. We contribute to that. So, trying to make sure that young people leave school and transition successfully is part of the target. We work in terms of that engagement framework.

Just one further question: so, do you have that information so that you can review your activity? So, if you see someone moving on to employment, or not moving on to employment, do you receive that information so that you can review your activities? And just one further question: have you heard about the disability disparity evidence unit? Have you worked with them at all?

In terms of that question, no.

No. Right, thank you very much. A short answer.

I have heard about them, but we haven't worked with them. I think it would be beneficial for us to work with them. If they collect any data that would be useful to us in terms of how we develop our services, that would be a great opportunity. In terms of—. I've forgotten—

Just looking to the future and looking back, then, at your work.

We look at pathway data, or the data on where people go, and then compare that with the service they received so that we look at how we could improve that service.

Thank you very much. And if I could ask Terry, too, the same question in a way. What kind of monitoring do you use and what targets do you have as part of your work?

As I mentioned earlier, because we don't have the levers for these targets, we cannot change employment law, we cannot change equality law, we cannot change benefits and payments, but I'm a particularly sad data geek and I follow the labour force survey; I wait each quarter for the figures to drop, and that's sad. We follow that on StatsWales, and it has been coming down. As I say, we're not claiming any credit for that. But what's interesting within it is looking at the differences in local authority areas. As has already been pointed out, there's a big difference. It's not uniform around Wales, this disability employment gap—less than 15 per cent in the Vale of Glamorgan, and their neighbours are over 40 per cent in Bridgend. And within local authority areas, there are different patches of different take-up. In Wrexham, in the last figures I have, 91.3 per cent of non-disabled people were in employment. And if you take out those with caring responsibilities, those who've retired early, if you're looking for employees in the Wrexham area, where are they going to come from? You've got nearly 50 per cent of disabled people in Wrexham who aren't in employment. So, what do you do in each area to address this? The data really informs how you work in different local areas, as well, on your workforce.

We are working closely with the disability disparity evidence unit, particularly on the disability rights taskforce recommendations. They want to work with us to do the feasibility of—. A lot of it in there is what needs to be done, and so we're being asked if we can feed into how you do that. We are having discussions, and we have had since they've been formed, on also what data do we need, what can we collect in Wales that we don't have at the moment—and any suggestions would also be welcome. It's what we can draw out, because there's quite a lot of stuff, as you say, that's not Wales specific. Some of the data isn't robust, because of the numbers—the numbers are too small, and the sampling—so you can't really use them for some things. So, yes, we are working with it. We do not have targets because we don't have control of the levers, but we're doing everything we can, working with employers to try and get them to recruit and retain more disabled workers.

Thank you very much. And just one brief question, if I may, because we don't have much time left. If there's one thing that you could change in order to drive change in this whole agenda, just one thing that you could change in Wales—I know, this is blue-sky thinking—what would that change be, if you'd like to change anything? I don't know who wants to go first. Emma.

Os af i yn gyntaf, mae cwpwl gyda ni ar y rhestr, onid oes, Nerys? Dyw hwn ddim yn cyfieithu i'r Gymraeg yn iawn, ond y three Cs i fi fyddai connection, collaboration a communication.

Expanding on what we discussed earlier, it's to have that greater connection throughout the partnerships, greater collaboration and then communication so everybody's aware. I think we've spoken quite a bit already about things needing to be a bit more place based, so having a national, regional and local view on what's available and what does that look like for each locality, and how does the data support where we need to go and where we focus. Sorry, that was a bit longer than 'one thing'.

No, it's okay. Thank you very much. And Terry, just one thing.

I'd just like to wake up tomorrow morning with all employers being open, willing to work with us, and to lose all the misconceptions about disabled people and their abilities.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. We were told earlier by one of our witnesses earlier this afternoon that there's only one Disability Confident leader amongst all the 22 local authorities in Wales. Which one is that?

Pembrokeshire.

Very good. Why do you think all the others have just not engaged with this?

We met with them last Friday and had a discussion with at least three that we will be helping to get to leader status in the near future.

Thank you. You mentioned, Mr Mills, that you have five key objectives in your team. Is that something that you'd be able to share with us? You don't need to say it right now, but if you could send it to us, that would be great.

Yes, that's fine.

Meanwhile, Careers Wales, I was particularly keen to find out a little bit more about the inclusive apprenticeship disability action plan, which is now nearly 10 years old. No, sorry, I beg your pardon, it's not 10 years old. It's nearly six years old; apologies. I just wondered what evaluation has been done of that, because we clearly need to do a great deal more. Has anybody done any evaluation of it? What are its key targets, and how far are we in achieving them?

I believe the action plan went from 2018 to 2021 or 2022, and it was part of a Welsh Government policy area at the time. I was a member of that board, but I think the action plan came to an end, and I'm not entirely sure what happened since. So I'm happy to follow that up and feed back.

That would be very useful to know. We'll obviously ask the Cabinet Secretary when we meet her later on. Otherwise, you said yourselves as an organisation set your own KPIs and targets. Are you able to share those with us so that we can see—? In relation, obviously, specifically to this matter.

Yes.

I think that's all from me, but if there's anything else, perhaps we can correspond with you. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much for your appearance. We'll send you a transcript and you can obviously come back to us if there's a problem.

We'll now take a short break, about three minutes if that's okay, before we meet our final contributors this afternoon.

Welcome back to the Equality and Social Justice Committee's inquiry into disability and employment. I'd like to welcome Andrea Wayman, chief executive officer of ELITE Supported Employment, and Arthur Beechey, chief executive officer of Agoriad Training and Employment Support, both joining us online. If I can start off by asking you both what are the main barriers to work for disabled people and how have these either improved or deteriorated in the last few years. Andrea, would you like to start?

Thank you. I think the main barrier is the availability of support and people identifying what is the correct support for them. If I could relate back to the Engage to Change project that we operated as a practitioner across 16 counties in south Wales—I'm speaking primarily about support for people with learning disabilities, learning difficulty and autism—the one-to-one job coach support that provides a holistic service to individuals was so necessary. When that ended in May 2023, we had no means of support as a third sector organisation apart from much smaller projects to support individuals.

We also lost European funding then to support individuals who were either deaf or blind or with hearing loss or sight loss. Individuals and employers need that level of support to reduce those barriers to employment, and that's whether we're talking about recruitment or retention of employment as well. And that goes across the sector, in terms of generic disability, if someone has a mental health issue.

Just to mention that we do have a number of schemes in Wales, but some of them are quite—. They're not old-fashioned, but perhaps they need to be modernised. We have an in-work support programme that supports people with mental health and musculoskeletal; that went out to tender last year. However, we are seeing a rise in people who are self-diagnosing with neurodiversity, we've also got more people with learning disabilities with ambition to work, and, yet, that programme did not meet their needs.

So, the main reason that programme folded—was that because of the loss of the European money and it going back to the UK Government?

And also because Engage to Change came to a natural end at May 2023.

Okay. Thank you. Arthur Beechey.

I echo everything Andrea has said. To us, one of the greatest challenges is the fact that, when we consider the employment sectors, namely the public, private and third sector, there is a substantial deficiency in terms of the public sector offering employment to disabled people. Apart from Betsi Cadwaladr up here, we've had very little uptake of offers of employment for disabled people. We've run a whole plethora of schemes, ranging from Workstep, the New Deal, the Work Programme, everything, but making the breakthrough into the public sector as an employment opportunity—. And taking into consideration the fact that the public sector is about 24 per cent of the labour market, that is a major challenge for us.

It would certainly be a major challenge as we don't have more than one local authority who's a Disability Confident leader, which is the only meaningful kitemark that is relevant, because all the rest is ticking a box and nobody actually checking up on your homework. I just wondered how that is possible, given that we have the well-being of future generations Act, which is mandatory for 46 organisations. Arthur Beechey, can you explain why nobody in north Wales, and nobody in south-east Wales, either—?

No, I can't explain it. In the report, it mentions this institutionalised ableism, which is a new one on me, but it does seem to be that the reluctance—. For example, in north Wales now, there's a North Wales Together project, of which we are a delivery partner over the counties of Anglesey and Gwynedd. And we're having knock-backs now already, trying to get their own people into employment, because, 'We can only offer work experience, nothing more'. Whereas with Betsi Cadwaladr, in fairness, they're not seeing it as a work experience thing; it may be a taster, but employmet is the aim. So, there are entrenched views there, I think.

The other thing, just going back a step, is viewing disabled people in the employment market as more than catering, horticulture and cleaning. With a diagnosis of autism, you can get high-functioning individuals who could be employed at much higher levels and in a wider variety of work. But there's a great reluctance. So, the employment of disabled people in Wales is basically falling within two sectors, namely the private sector and the third sector.

Thank you. I'm now going to pass on to Jane Dodds, to find out a bit more.

Thank you very much. I'm going to speak in Welsh, so I just wanted to make sure that you have the translation. So, the first question: you've spoken a little bit about the work that your organisations do. But could I ask a little bit more? What do you provide, how do you operate in this field, please? I'm not sure who would like to take that question first.

Yes. Go for it.

Shall I give Arthur the chance?

Yes.

Ocê. Wel, mudiad elusennol ydy Agoriad, ond rydym ni hefyd yn rhedeg gwahanol gwmnïau mentrau cymdeithasol. Rydym ni wedi bod yn dibynnu lot ar grantiau, ond, yn 2006, gwnaethom ni benderfynu cystadlu a gosod ein strategaeth ni ar allu ein staff. So, gwnaethom ni fuddsoddi mewn llwyth o hyfforddiant i gystadlu am gytundebau oedd yn cael eu cynnig efo'r DWP neu Jobcentre Plus ac efo'r awdurdodau lleol. Rydym ni'n rhedeg service level agreements, rydym ni hefyd yn rhan o redeg supported shared apprenticeships efo Cambrian Training. Hefyd rydym ni'n gweithio efo colegau efo Llwybr 4, Pathway 4, sef interniaeth â chymorth, sydd ar gael, a hefyd rydym ni'n cael pres oddi wrth fasnachu ein nwyddau ni i bobl leol.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Arthur. A gaf i ofyn i Andrea, os gwelwch chi'n dda?

So, for us, we operate very similarly to Arthur. We operate to the supported employment fidelity model, the five-stage process of appropriate assessments. We gain a holistic needs identity for an individual and we job match them appropriately, then, into the workplace. And some people may need pre-employment support. Through different funding methods that we have, we've operated DWP programmes in the past. We currently operate supported shared apprenticeships for Welsh Government. That's very specialised, with people receiving one-to-one support through the fidelity model, with a job coach supporting that individual and gradually withdrawing as that person gains independence.

As well as the supported shared apprenticeship, we've also operated supported internships, like Arthur, through Engage to Change; in 2016 we introduced the first model of that kind into Wales with Cardiff University. There are approximately 20-odd supported internships now operating in Wales, not just with our organisation or Agoriad; it's where colleges may operate those programmes themselves, working with a range of public sector and private sector employers.

We also operate social enterprises. Two of the social enterprises that we operate are part of Welsh Government's Better Jobs Closer to Home programmes, and that is a stepping-stone process to enable people to upskill, as they come into us, gain confidence, self-esteem, lots of soft skills and accreditation, and then move into jobs in our communities.

We're a Disability Confident leader—that's really important for us, to work with other employers, to get them considering Disability Confident, and have recently discussed a disability charter with both Disability Wales and Learning Disability Wales to take that through and hopefully strengthen Disability Confident with individual employers that we're working with.

The fidelity model, the job coaching model, is really, really important to us. It makes sure that everybody that we work with gets a personalised service that is tailored to their particular needs, and that we job match them appropriately into appropriate jobs. That depends on whether someone has quite a significant learning disability and goes into entry jobs in the labour market, but also we get university graduates who should be going into jobs higher than entry-level jobs, so that we reduce that disability employment pay gap that we experience across the UK.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gaf i ofyn cwestiwn? Roeddech chi'n sôn yna am Disability Confident, a dŷn ni wedi clywed, yn y pwyllgor yma, agweddau gwahanol ynglŷn â Disability Confident. Gaf i ofyn y ddau ohonoch chi, os gwelwch chi'n dda, beth ydych chi'n meddwl am y sgêm yna, os gwelwch chi'n dda? Ydy hi'n effeithiol neu ddim, a pham dydy hi ddim? Beth ydy'ch barn chi ar hynny, os gwelwch chi'n dda? Mae Arthur eisiau mynd yn gyntaf.

I can talk about—. Shall I start?

Yes, go on.

Yes. So—. Sorry, Arthur. Go on.

Well, in terms of us as Agoriad, it's a process. There is a duty on us because we have certain values, so we do have to implement it. But, at the end of the day, if it's just a process, anyone can go through it. There just simply aren't enough metrics in order to demonstrate whether the organisation truly deserves that kitemark, if you like. It has lost some of its impact in our eyes, because we see a number of organisations, a number of them in the public sector, who have Disability Confident, but, at the end of the day, they're a long way behind in terms of employing disabled people.

Thank you. Thank you very much for that honest response. Could I ask Andrea, please, what you think?

So, you've got level 1 and level 2, which are self-assessments, and I think that's where the difficulty lies. It's very weak in terms of monitoring what people are doing; they've signed up to it. And that's not to say that we don't encourage every employer that we work with to sign up to Disability Confident, it's the relationship that we have with them, and I suppose what we're doing is checking to see whether they're actually practising what they preach. But the weakness around Disability Confident is the fact that it's an internal self-assessment for a lot of organisations. If we had something such as a Disability Confident leader, where you've got external award by another disability organisation, that's what gives it teeth to make sure that people are actually doing what they say that they will do. They have to prove it.

Thank you very much. And then one final question, please, and just short answers on this, please: how do you collaborate with other organisations in Wales or in the region that you represent, and organisations like Careers Wales and so on? How do you work together with them, please? I don't know who wants to go first on that one.

Well, we have quite a close relationship with them, but I do think it needs to be strengthened somewhat, because, for example, we see, with supported shared apprenticeships, that they aren't fully aware of what's going on, or the kind of referrals that we should receive, or who the programme is appropriate for. But we've also understood the importance of working pan Wales, so ELITE and ourselves, because of Engage to Change particularly, have had to learn how to roll out the Engage to Change service across the whole of Wales, so, we've broken things down geographically and we help each other, particularly in rural areas such as Powys or Cardiganshire. So, we do network with a number of other organisations.

Thank you. Andrea, finally.

So, for us it's about being very participative with this; we often have to lead with those links. For myself, I've had 35 years of working with Careers Wales, and in the last 10 to 15 years with various sectors of Welsh Government and training organisations and so on, but it's about us sometimes having to prompt that contact and be the instigator of that contact as well.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Can I bring in Sioned Williams now?

Thank you, Chair, and good afternoon. The Welsh Government have a disability rights taskforce that has been doing the work for several years now. It includes a working group looking at employment and income. Have you had any sort of involvement with that taskforce or the working group at all, and what's your view, or do you have any comments, about that piece of work, if you've been part of it or otherwise?

We haven't been involved with it. And also, because we work face to face, we're with the employers on a daily basis. That's our bread and butter, and getting people with disabilities into work is the main aim of Agoriad. On occasion, we do see a great deal of silo working, and, because of that, the context isn't always taken into account fully as it should be. That's why I raised this point on the public sector at the outset. So, it's a shame in a way, but that is certainly something that we could contribute to and we should contribute to. There may be some fault from our side here, I don't know, but we haven't had any engagement with it at all.

Okay, thank you. Andrea.

Prynhawn da. My operations managers had some links in with the taskforce. I've personally had links in on a debate regarding Disability Confident and whether we should have our own model within Wales, and was party to that as a Disability Confident leader organisation. But that's about the only engagement that I've had with that group.

Okay, great, thank you very much for that. Obviously, you've mentioned—both of you mentioned this—the way that your organisations have been engaging with several projects, several initiatives in terms of employment support from Welsh Government for disabled people—Engage to Change, Better Jobs Closer to Home and so on. Where are the gaps? How can we develop more effective support, do you think, in Wales now, for disabled people, through Government initiatives? Do you have any suggestions on that?

Well, I would say that consistency is the main thing. There are so many things that have happened, but, at the end of the day, I'm talking about employment, and that's my focus. In our view as Agoriad, the organisations who walk the talk aren't necessarily having the influence that they should have. And also funding sources are now having an impact. I was speaking to the Betsi Cadwaladr board [correction: speaking to Betsi Cadwaladr staff] before this meeting to seek their views, and one of the things that doesn't help, just as an example for you, is if the funding all goes to one source—let's take Pathway 4 as an example; it goes to the college—then the importance of that funding can become more important to the college than what they're trying to deliver. So, then it impacts the ability to have collaborations and—I use this term—joint productions and so on as a result.

But also there are opportunities with job coaching strategies and so on, and Engage to Change has done a huge amount of work in that area. If that is rolled out nationally, then we could save money and use that funding far more effectively, because you wouldn't have these core costs and the infrastructure costs that the individual organisations and colleges have. So, that's what I'd like to see—some consistency emerging, and looking at the bigger picture and playing to the strengths that already exist.

Thank you. And do you not feel that having some sort of national job coach service would complement the support that you provide rather than duplicating that work?

No, it could—. The roots have already been put down. It's the roll-out and the scale now that's the thing, but the scale has to be consistent with the strategy, of course. And what's the strategy? I don't know.

Thank you. Andrea, did you have any comments that you wanted to make in terms of the gaps?

Yes, very, very similar to Arthur. It's continuity of funding. When you have funding for just 12 months, you can't plan against that. What we've seen, in real terms, is a reduction of the investment in supported shared apprenticeships to 60 per cent of what we had as the opportunity in the first year that we did the pilot, for instance. This year, for instance, on supported shared apprenticeships, we carried over 34 individuals across 16 counties. That's not a lot of people—two people on average per county. We can't enrol anybody new into the apprenticeship programme this year, given that we only started it in August, because we've spent the money for the whole year, and how do you maintain people's aspirations in terms of this? We’ve also got a huge barrier, with level 2 being the minimum qualification that someone has to reach on an apprenticeship programme, so you’ve cancelled out, probably, 80 per cent of people with learning disabilities or learning difficulties. And, also, deaf people as well, where they rely on BSL as their form of communication. I’ve recently had to make two staff redundant, because we weren’t getting the referrals for Jobs Growth Wales+ in the supported version of that. And, also, people’s perception of what we should be doing as well. So, we’re not a babysitting service; we’re about employment. We should be supporting people when they’ve gone into employment, appropriately job matching them to all of that.

Pathway 4 is a big concern for me. So, there is sufficient money being provided to colleges for Pathway 4, and, as Arthur said, some colleges do not want to pass that on to work collaboratively with the supported employment agency. They feel they can do that. If they have qualified staff, I would not disagree with them. My only concern is, when we come to the end of an academic year, who supports that individual after that as they’re due to go into employment? And we’ve got the British Association for Supported Employment UK, who are doing some research with the National Development Team for Inclusion, and Project SEARCH at the moment on that. They’ve got some varying things, where colleges themselves are providing job coaching to those who are engaged with supported employment agencies, and, after six months, they’re saying that approximately 50 per cent of people fall out of their employment, because they haven’t got that continuity of support, because the academic year ended six months beforehand.

So, that’s a gap that we’ve got. I think we’ve also got a gap in terms of there needs to be a programme for people who, yes, could do entry level and level 1 qualifications and move into employment. There are a lot of employers who would be happy to engage and employ individuals, where the job only requires that level of qualification as well. And what we often see is that it can take three to four years before people can move on academically in the role that they’re doing, and be supported in terms of reasonable adjustments to achieve a level 2 in terms of apprenticeships.

Thank you so much, that's very valuable. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much and good afternoon. We’ve heard a lot about employers’ attitudes towards disability, particularly towards learning disability, and this is a key barrier to employment. What has been your experience of the attitudes of employers?

Shall I start? Is that okay? So, when we operated—. I founded this particular charity 30 years ago now. If employers are getting supported, they will be very positive about employing disabled staff. I think we have concerns around doing the wrong thing by employers, and employers, if they’re not receiving support, can get too hung up on that. Engage to Change is a great example of where we engaged a considerable level of employers with very positive attitudes to employing staff with learning disabilities. We’ve moved into working with the public sector. I believe that the public sector should lead by example. Arthur’s already indicated that 24 per cent of our employment in Wales is via the public sector. We are definitely not on a level playing field in terms of disabled people in employment, at 24 per cent with the public sector at this moment in time. So, there’s a lot of work to be done there.

Employers need support themselves, and it’s about the relationship that you build with employers, and how they are supported and trained to recognise the abilities of disabled people, not necessarily seeing it as something where legislation is going to be forced back into their face. So, you need to bring employers on board with this, and we achieved that through Engage to Change. The difficulty was that we didn’t have the continuity. However, those employers that we did work with through Engage to Change are still working with us.

Thank you. Are there any particular sectors that you would say need to be targeted? Obviously, we've talked about the public sector. What about any other sectors where there is a particularly good or bad record?

Well, I would stick with the public sector. If I could just put a bit more context into what Andrea said, I've been in Agoriad over 20-odd years now and during that period, we've run all kinds of things, from contract-based to performance-related things such as the work programme and what have you, and various European projects. We've probably got thousands and thousands of people into work, and I would say fewer than 1 per cent have been in the public sector. Now, that can't be changed, because that's historic, but I can't see much change going forward, apart from Betsi. Now, when we also factor in that the vast majority of our employers are SMEs—. And we're not talking about the Welsh Government definition of SMEs, we're talking the one-man or one-woman band, very often, in rural areas. But because of their sense of community, because of the way they've been brought up and the culture where they believe opportunity and equality are very important, they've always played a part, and that's been a whole thing from the slate quarries of Blaenau Ffestiniog through to local delicatessens and what have you. But to me, the challenge is the public sector, you know, and within the public sector there is a whole range of opportunity suitable for all ranges of disabilities. They're just not engaging. You know, I'm ashamed to say that we don't get any luck with the local authorities; we don't get any luck with Welsh Government; we don't get any luck with Natural Resources Wales—you know, you name it, we've tried it and we've got nowhere. And it's not because we put forward inappropriate candidates. That is the major challenge for us.

Yes, I think—

Can I just—? Oh, sorry.

Yes, Andrea, go on.

Just to add to that, as well, in terms of sector career-wise, there will be some employers that will have health and safety concerns, and again that's about the level of support that employers have and training and understanding of the needs of an individual. Both Arthur and our organisation train a lot of individuals before going into a particular sector that they've chosen. Health and safety is often something that we will train up, because what we have to do is allay concerns and fears that employers have around employing disabled people, and approaching those misconceptions in a very, very positive way and providing case studies where that's not the case. They simply are misconceptions. And then, that work, where you've been able to demonstrate to an employer that someone is safe coming into work, they will be an asset to the company and so on, and also getting employers in various employer forums to speak to one another—that certainly does help what we do. But as much as anything, it's that member of staff working with that employer, and also their team of staff as well.

Thank you. And one last question from me: what about self-employment? We have heard, during the evidence, that that is something disabled people may prefer because of the flexibility that's involved. What is your view of that, and do you think there is enough support for people who want to be self-employed?

Certainly, self-employment is an option that is more than suitable for a lot of people. Our own arrangement for that, because we've had a number of people go into self-employment, is that we use an external accountant. We make use of the business advice services locally as well, and if it was identified as a kind of embedded option, and if the Welsh Government and everything could develop the necessary policies and processes to do it, that would help it, because it would give a framework in which to operate, and that is something where the advice and guidance about the suitability or otherwise of self-employment could be introduced to potential clients much earlier on.

Thank you. We were told earlier this afternoon that many disabled people become self-employed because they can't get a job where they're not self-employed. I don't know whether you've got any views on that.

Just to mention one of my concerns around self-employment—and I come from a family of self-employed people—is that one of the challenges that disabled people who have chosen self-employment face is that they'll get support from Business Wales, for instance, but then they can't get support from Access to Work if they want to start their business with minimal hours. And sometimes, when you start a new business, you've got to test the waters. But they're experiencing this barrier of not being able to gain the resources or the support from the Access to Work scheme operated by UK Government because perhaps they're unable to demonstrate consistent hours in terms of the new business, they're unable to demonstrate hours that meet the minimum threshold and things, and that in itself is creating a barrier to self-employment for disabled people.

Yes. Thank you very much. Thanks.

Thank you. Just moving on—apologies. Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. And thanks ever so much for this afternoon, it has been absolutely invaluable at the moment. I don't suppose I could just ask two questions, really, which will cover loosely education and training. I know you've touched upon it briefly, but one of the things that keeps getting brought up to us by those we invite to give evidence is that, if you looked at solving the educational inequalities in schools, that would have a big impact, then, on the disability employment gap. And I just wanted to know what your thoughts were on that. Is that something that you recognise within your fields there and, if that's the case, what could be done about it?

I could go back historically. I started working life in this field in a college—it was Coleg Glan Hafren at the time—and we used to have a lot of vocational courses for young people who were not academic and may have had undiagnosed learning difficulties and learning disabilities at that time. And that vocational training, between the ages of 14 to 16, were a lifeline to a lot of young people moving into employment. That stopped, which I don't think was a good route for education to go down. It brought schools and colleges together and also the world of work for young people, with the assumption that they would go on to apprenticeships afterwards. Now, I'm talking 35 years ago when I say about that, but for a lot of people who we've worked with, they learn about work in the working environment, and that's key, because a lot of people don't have a role model. And we need to bring education and employers closer together. I've said this in the economic advisory group, and so on: employers need to influence what training needs to go on in colleges, but I also think that that closer working relationship between colleges, FE, schools, whatever we want to say, with and for disabled people in terms of working with that employer and gaining that experience before education ends would be fundamentally changing in terms of disability.

And Arthur.

Well, my view, and Agoriad's view as well, is that young people with disabilities don't sit outside of the economic system when they become older and it shouldn't be allowed to happen. The potential is there to be realised, and the work and employment for them should be actively encouraged and the necessary systems put in place to make sure that they do get the chance to sample it and to realise the value of what work can bring to their lives.

I think that's quite a valuable point there, because I know that, in one of the previous evidence sessions we had, the gentleman there said that he has spoken with so many disabled young people and nearly all of them have said, 'I was never asked what I wanted to do after school.' Is that something that you see as well?

Well, I always remember a horror story, whereby the children in a school, which will remain nameless, all had placements to go out, bar a young disabled girl, because it was too much trouble to get her one, and she's the only one left in school of her year, and everybody else is out. There's something wrong there.

That's so upsetting to hear, actually. I suppose that brings us on to the next question, really. Again, we're hearing that in terms of work placements, voluntary jobs, supported internships, there just isn't anything out there. Is that something you recognise? And also—what's the word I'm looking for—it's all sort of the same, if that makes sense, like the hospitality sector, it's the same sort of sector, if it is available, or as we've heard about, it's to volunteer in a charity shop, and we've heard then, 'Well, if they can volunteer in a charity shop, they can get paid employment in a shop.' I just wanted to get your views on that then.

So, for us, we always feel that work experience is incredibly valuable for that individual. If you don't have a role model in your family or if you've never sampled something for yourself, how do you decide what you want to do as a career? So, we always start with work experience. Probably, as much as our vocational profiling assessment tool, we get to know that person once we're in a workplace with them, whether that's unpaid work experience or volunteering. And it helps that person decide for themselves. There has to be a level of self-determinism for the young disabled person, or an older person who’s had no experience of work whatsoever, to decide and be participative in the choice of career that they wish to follow, and that's important.

Sometimes we'll do up to the internships, an example of where people will have three rotations. Supported shared apprenticeships can allow for people having three experiences with different employers, and that shouldn't be an end in itself. Our social enterprises and the example of that, the expectation is that people will move into paid employment, whether that's in our social enterprises themselves or whether we’re then moving people into our communities as they progress their skills and become more independent. We should not just accept for a young person because they're regarded as disabled that they don't have an ability to move on to paid employment.

In terms of whether there are opportunities out there, yes, there are a lot of employers out there who are recruiting. There are a lot of employers who can't find staff in terms of their needs as well, but we need to support those employers to make these opportunities happen and happen appropriately for that young person, but also for the employer and their team of staff as well, so that they understand how they should be supporting an individual. We don't want employers who are patronising to someone; likewise, we don't want to assume that because someone functions in a particular way that when they're next learning a task or anything new in the workplace that they can just get on with it themselves. We've got relationships with employers where people have been employed for 30 years now, and we still go back if there's a retraining need or whatever. I know I'm going a little off-tangent here, but the expectation should always be about paid employment for someone.

Okay, brilliant, thank you. Arthur, I don't know if you want to come in.

Just to say that I think it's quite important to establish whether employment is a realistic aim, and there are plenty of assessment tools and vocational profiling and stuff, but it's also getting—. Sometimes there can be a lot of external factors and influences upon the individual, especially from family, and sometimes the impact of family influences and culture can really either promote or destroy somebody's employment aspirations. But I think just to see people, disabled people, in terms of charity shops or food, filth and flowers opportunities, that isn't right.

And what I would say on that is there is a great lesson to be learned in Ysbyty Gwynedd that, during COVID, the interns there worked on the wards all through COVID, and that's something that the trumpet is not blown loudly enough about, because they were on the front line. Their attendance was good, they were treated as part of society, the necessary health and safety measures were in place, but they actually worked, and that just gives you an indication that if disabled people can function in an employment role in that kind of environment, surely to God there's a lot more that they can do.

Okay, brilliant. Thank you.

Thanks very much. Just finally from me, I wondered if you could tell us what measures are in place to monitor and evaluate the effectiveness of the services you provide and whether there are any data gaps that would help you target your services even more effectively. Arthur, do you want to go first, and then I'll come to Andrea, or Andrea, you were ready to—?

We have contract-specific criteria that we need to fulfil in order to fulfil the contract, obviously, but there are certain things, for example, Andrea mentioned earlier on Jobs Growth Wales—. It's an absolute mystery to me where the cohort is, because last year we had two referrals, and that's through the whole of north Wales, and I think this year we've got three so far. So, there's a lot more data that we should maybe know where to look for, or should be provided to us, so that we can make sure our context and understanding of disability and employment are relevant.

Okay, so, certainly joining up the dots there. But is there data you can send us about how many people you serve—

Yes, certainly. We can send you that and the note I've made. We can do that. Just let me know who to send it to, and we will do.

And will that tell us the outcomes in terms of people not just getting into work, but also staying in work and progressing?

Certainly, like Andrea, we've got people that have been employed 20 plus years, they've raised families of their own now, so we can send you that kind of thing. We can send case studies. If somebody comes back to me with what you want, we'll send it.

Excellent. We'll be in touch. Andrea.

The same for ourselves. A lot of the work that we do is contract based as well, whether that's a service level agreement that we have with the local authority, or a DWP programme that we operate and our supported internships and so on. Sometimes, we create our own targets against things. Our relationship with Learning Disability Wales and Engage to Change, we base that in terms of what we had as our own expectations, both Agoriad and ELITE, and you see the outcomes from that in the various evaluations that were produced. It's above the national average for mainstream programmes, the number of people that we were getting into employment.

What we do is we also have our own 13-week tracking period—it's very similar to a DWP programme and some of the Welsh Government employment programmes—to see about sustainability. Unfortunately, beyond that, our resources don't allow us to keep tracking individuals. What we do have is a very informal basis, where we say to every jobseeker we work with, once they become independent, 'We're at the end of the phone for you. We'll monitor you once or twice a year, but if there are any issues in between, contact us.' That was the case for us during COVID. We saved about 200 jobs by simply working with employers in terms of furlough at that point, rather than people being made redundant. It is important that people feel comfortable that they've got an organisation that they can go back to in terms of sustainability, and we try, if we can, to keep figures on that.

What we also try to do, and we're working at the moment on the lottery's Green Careers, we've got through to the second stage on that—. One of the things that we also want to keep data on is the people who do not meet our eligibility criteria for the funding, and that's really important for us to identify people who are falling through a gap where the funding simply isn't there for them, so that we can identify what's needed in Wales to support those individuals to achieve their goals of paid employment.

Sorry, what sort of people would fall through the gap?

It may be that they're too old. So, for instance, if I gave Green Careers as an example, they may not live in the area, they may be over 30 years old. When we ran our JobSense programme for people with sight loss and hearing loss, our first programme was in east Wales, and we had lots of people from west Wales and the Valleys who contacted us, and that's why we went for another direct contract with the Welsh European Funding Office, so that we could meet the needs of other people in Wales in relation to that.

Okay. I understand geographically specific targeting, but to disqualify anybody over a certain age when—I think it's some extraordinarily large sum—83 per cent of disabilities are acquired whilst people are in employment.

Yes, and it's simply because the funding that we receive stops at that point. So, for instance, Jobs Growth Wales+ stops at 19 in terms of Welsh Government programmes. We have a lot of people from 20 upwards who would really, really benefit from Jobs Growth Wales+, for instance. So, that's one example there. For other people, it may be that their disability simply isn't covered by a particular programme, so that in-work support that covers mental health and musculoskeletal, if you've got a learning disability, you're not going to be supported by that particular programme. There are your eligibility criteria that are stopping someone getting a service.

Thank you. What contact have you had with the disability disparity evidence unit, because obviously—

I've had no contact with them whatsoever.

Arthur.

No. None.

Okay. Right. Well, thank you very much indeed for your contributions. We'll be in touch with a little bit of additional information, without trying to make it burdensome, as I appreciate that you're both small organisations. But it's been very useful to hear from you as grass-roots organisations that are delivering for people with disabilities. So, thank you very much. We'll be sending you a transcript, anyway, of your evidence, and you can correct it if we've got it wrong.

Diolch. Thank you.

Thank you for the opportunity. Bye-bye.

Thanks. Bye-bye.

We've got one paper to note, which is correspondence from Dr Robert Jones about prisons and sentencing in Wales. Can we agree to note that report?

And I now ask, if Members are content, that we move to exclude the public from the remainder of this meeting. Thank you very much.