Children, Young People, and Education Committee

We will now move on to agenda item 2. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves, and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement they've had in the development of the Bill.

Chris Parry, headteacher at Lewis School Pengam and president of the National Association of Headteachers Cymru.

I'm Laura Doel. I'm the national secretary of NAHT Cymru. I've had some involvement in some of the working groups to discuss elements of the Bill.

Hello, I'm Claire Armitstead, and I'm the director of the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru. We have been involved just in replying on the consultation.

My name is Julian Kennedy. I'm the headteacher of Olchfa School in Swansea. I also sit on the ASCL council, and the executive, and I'm here with a practitioner's perspective.

Thank you. Thank you for joining us this morning. Members have a series of questions, and I'll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill, and whether you believe it should be a priority at the current time, including whether it should be a priority within education specifically?

I'm happy to start.

Yes, if you don't mind.

NAHT's position is absolutely that we agree with all aspirations of the Bill, and we believe that, as education practitioners, we have a significant role to play in the promotion and the protection of the Welsh language. Where we have concern with the Bill is around the implementation and delivery, and the expectations placed on schools to be able to meet the requirements within the legislation. We are bitterly disappointed that there is no workforce impact assessment within the Bill, so that we know exactly what the expectations are for the workforce, what it would mean for them, what it would mean for schools, and I think that is something that we are—. It's one of the main reasons why we are unable to support the Bill as it stands, because we simply do not know what it would look like for our members.

Okay. Thank you. Anybody else?

Yes, please. As ASCL Cymru, we fully support the aims of the Bill, but we don't support its implementation at this time. We believe there are significant issues with the statutory nature of the Bill, and also the educational system's capacity to deliver on its expectations. We have to think about the significant challenges we're still facing with school funding, the workload, recruitment and retention crisis, and our ongoing workload demands. We believe, and our members have made it clear, that the education system is in crisis, and we feel strongly this is not the right time to introduce this Bill, and we risk unintended consequences by doing so.

Okay. Anybody else?

Yes, if I could echo that from a philosophical point of view as well. Personally, and in terms of my colleagues as well, we are all philosophically behind the approach behind the Bill, and the promotion of the Welsh language within schools. I have very significant practical concerns around the recruitment of Welsh-speaking teachers, in particular those who can teach Welsh, and also those who add Welshness to the staff. There is a real crisis of recruitment within that sector at the moment, and I have concerns that, first of all, we would be unable to meet targets, even if we would be willing to, but, additionally, that we could see a transfer of resources within the state sector where we see Welsh-speaking teachers moving to particular schools, or whatever it might be, particularly if there are any financial incentives to do so. And that, inevitably, is going to lead to some schools having very significant shortages and not being able to meet and deliver what they need to within Welsh language areas.

Okay, thank you. The Bill requires the Welsh Government to include statutory targets in its Welsh language strategy to increase the provision of Welsh language education and increase the number of people who are learning Welsh. How will this affect schools and your members, and do you agree with the role the Bill gives to the education system in reaching the 'Cymraeg 2050' target of 1 million Welsh speakers?

I'm happy to come in there. I think, echoing some of the points earlier, the profession is committed to the Welsh language. We all want to work in schools where we work in a culturally rich environment and a linguistically rich environment, and we would support any efforts that are being made to achieve a million Welsh speakers by 2050. I think, again, to go back to some of the points that we've made, the concerns are around the practical implementation of the Bill and what we would see in school. I think we've touched on some of these, but for me, particularly, there are some of those challenges around curriculum change, where we're already in a situation where we are engaging with the new Curriculum for Wales. That has provided us with some capacity, and a welcome capacity, in terms of broadening the curriculum and allowing us to look at certain areas and the authenticity of learning experience.

I would be concerned about an increase in the Welsh language then narrowing the curriculum in terms of what we need to offer, or that we would have to offer existing provision through the medium of Welsh. And that leads into the second point, which has already been touched on, around recruitment and retention. We would need to train up staff or recruit staff for that, and I foresee many challenges in doing that.

One thing that I would add to what Chris has just said is we recognise there needs to be some ambition within the Bill and some kind of target, but I think, again, Claire has already mentioned the unexpected—unintended, rather—consequences of this Bill. What we don't want to do and what we don't want is a position that schools feel under significant pressure to be able to deliver when they may well not have the resources to be able to do that through no fault of their own. And I think we need to think, when we talk about targets, that they need to be realistic. And, obviously, you will have heard evidence from others, and will know yourselves from your own constituencies, that the level of Welsh language used in everyday life is very different in different parts of Wales. And so we need to be mindful of putting too much pressure on schools to be able to deliver that if we don't have the resources to do that. And because we don't have a workload impact assessment, we're not really in a position to be able to give any more evidence around that.

I think, for ASCL Cymru, we agree with exactly what Laura's just said. This isn't a lack of want, this is just a lack of ability. You know, we're used to targets in schools. We've had them for every aspect of our working life. It's what we do. But a target that we cannot meet by no fault of our own is just going to create a level of stress and anxiety in the workforce that they can't act on. The simplest way to put this is we simply cannot recruit, and we need to recruit significantly to make this happen.

I'd echo the same thing. You know, I don't know any schoolteachers who shy away from targets. I don't know any school leaders who are not aspirational for their school. There's a difference between sharpening practice in areas where you can improve practice and where you simply don't have the resources to be able to do so. And I'd contrast it, for example, if we go back to pre-COVID days, with the days of attendance targets—I think that did have the effect of sharpening practice within schools, and it did have an impact. But that's where there was headroom to grow into. And I'm just truly concerned that we don't have a pool of Welsh teachers to be able to draw upon to increase curriculum demand, for example, or curriculum supply, rather, and also in order to accelerate the process and meet mandatory targets. I think aspirational targets are fine, but when they become mandatory, I think that's a very different kettle of fish.

Okay, thank you. I think you've answered my final question, but I'd like to bring Cefin in here, if I could, please.

Thank you very much. I've just got two questions as additional questions. The first I'll ask in English, the second I'll ask in Welsh. I'm mindful of the position that you've set in terms of the pressures on the workforce. I think, ASCL—and I'm quoting here from your evidence—you say that you don't believe the aspirations of the Bill should be placed in law in a statutory setting. If it does become statutory, it will place school leaders, and I'm quoting, under pressure to divert resources to the detriment of other education priorities. So, are you saying that increasing the number of Welsh speakers in line with the Senedd's ambition of creating 1 million Welsh speakers is not a priority, and are you presenting this as a binary choice?

No and no. So, what we're actually saying is, at the moment, there is not enough money in the educational system, and schools are under increasing pressures to deliver on a variety of priorities. The massive difference we have here is not that we don't think this is a priority, but we can't deliver it. When Julian was talking, for the other targets that we may face, there is a pool of people we can recruit from to maintain those targets. In this case, we can't, and therefore we would have to divert significant resource, significant time to train or to find or identify where these people could come from, and we still wouldn't be secure that we could find them.

I'm going to ask the next question in Welsh. I accept that there is a great deal of pressure in terms of ensuring the provision of a bilingual workforce—that is a challenge—and this Government needs to take that challenge seriously, but the two unions before us this morning have suggested that it's not through legislation that we should be increasing the number of Welsh speakers, but in terms of encouragement and promotion, rather.

We've applied this policy for over 50 years, and if you look at the figures, around 160 pupils are studying Welsh as a second language in English-medium schools. That's the yardstick in terms of how fluent a pupil can be in an English-medium school—160 pupils. That corresponds to 0.5 per cent of all of the A-level examinations that are undertaken. That system has failed in terms of encouragement and trying to inspire pupils. So, perhaps we need to think in a different way, and that's what this Bill proposes to do. How would you respond to that?

I agree that we need to think in a different way on how we promote the Welsh language. I think we're in a little bit of danger here, and it seems to be a little bit of an ongoing theme, certainly, with some Welsh Government policy, that if it's to do with children, it must be the responsibility of schools to fix this problem. And I think what we are concerned about is that this is another responsibility on schools to fix this because the promotion, the policy beforehand, hasn't worked.

Now, schools have a significant role to play—of course, they do, we're talking about education, so absolutely they have a role to play—but when speaking to our members who have a significant proportion of learners in their school who are very well-versed in the Welsh language, they don't use it in the communities that they live in, they don't use it in their everyday life. They might well use it in school and they might well use it with peers in the playground, but they don't use it in the towns and the villages that they spend their time, they don't use it at football and rugby clubs on the weekend. Therefore, there is a limit to what schools can do, and I think we need to be mindful that, although schools have a role, they can't be the only place in which to do this. And what we would like to see is the resources put into schools so that they can fulfil what they would like to do, because the ambition in schools is already there, regardless of any legislation, but they simply don't have the resources to do that. And I think we need to work better on how we deliver that.

I think what you said was really interesting, that we've been given these aspirational targets, and it's only put so many children into studying at A-level, but they're our deliverers and our teachers coming forward. In order for schools to really grab on to statutory targets, we need the workforce. Everything that we could do to build the workforce to then allow schools to recruit from it, that's the system that we would consider appropriate from ASCL Cymru. This isn't a lack of want, this is a lack of people to deliver in the schools. So, particularly in English-medium schools, we could go out four, five, six times for a Welsh specialist, we could still not shortlist and we could still not recruit. But it's almost like a vicious circle: we can't get more children in to be teaching Welsh until we get more children learning through Welsh.

And just to come in on a really practical point about that A-level issue that you've described there, and the comparatively small numbers of pupils who end up learning at A-level, you can link that directly back to the way that sixth-forms are currently funded, in terms of the amount of money you receive per course. To make a course viable and to ensure that the teachers delivering that course are doing the job in the most efficient way possible, you need, probably, around 15 to 20 pupils, but in our school, we will run A-levels at 10. So, if you haven't got the teachers within your setting to be able to deliver that course, and you haven't got the number of pupils who are then coming through and sitting that A-level—. Even if I've got six, seven, eight pupils within school who would want to undertake that A-level, it's incredibly difficult to offer it, because, effectively, you're offering that course at a loss. And that's the reality of schools at the minute: our budgets are so tight, there is no wriggle room, and it is incredibly difficult to put that extra bit of resource into those areas where you would wish to do that.

I think we have seen examples—and I would stress this—where, in schools across Wales that have been very, very successful in developing a culture of Welsh language, and pushing more pupils through to A-level—. Buffy will know this. I live in Treorchy, it's an area in the Valleys, and the Valleys are not traditionally Welsh speaking, but it's got a really rich linguistic heritage, and it's an area where I hear Welsh being spoken on a daily basis. And I know that in the comprehensive school that my children went to, the language was a very important part of what they did. They were able to push several pupils through to A-level, including my daughter, in an area that was also challenged in terms of finance. But they were able to do that with an investment in the workforce, from the initial stages of their planning and when they had the workforce in place.

Now, for me, having a teacher that is bilingual is nothing but a gift; it's a fantastic thing to have in school, and I would love if every single one of my members of staff could deliver subjects bilingually, because I think it creates that environment that we want to see. I feel, with this Bill, in some way we may be putting the cart before the horse. If we invest in the workforce first, make sure that we've got staff inside school that can do this, then we can begin to look at how we can use that workforce to implement these targets, and I think that's where the challenge is currently.

Listen, I fully agree with your concerns about of a lack of a bilingual workforce, and it has to be a priority for Welsh Government moving forward. I think we've got to be careful as well that we don't separate—Laura, with respect—language acquisition, which is outside the home, the responsibility of schools, and language usage; they are two different sets of priorities that need two different strategies. But the language usage is for somebody else to look after—those like the Urdd and mentrau iaith, who provide that support in the community.

I'll bring Vaughan in here now, please.

Yes. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, thanks for coming. I just want to be clear, to understand the clarity of the message you're giving: support for the aims and ambitions of the Bill, and want to be part of creating more confident Welsh speakers in school and out, but it's the practical delivery that your concern is. And just so that I'm really clear about this, every public service that comes before any committee will say, 'We have very real financial problems', so I don't think you're in a different position, but I recognise it's a really challenging one for school leaders, and I know that in my own constituency as well. But, just so I understand, the point you're making isn't really about money when it comes to workforce, it's about the availability of the workforce. So, even if we gave you a big uplift in the budget—and I'm sure Lynne Neagle will argue for it—even if that were possible, just so I'm clear, what I think you're saying is, you can't recruit that workforce anyway, and I just want to be clear about the fact that you organise in both the Welsh-medium and English-medium sectors.

Yes.

So, it's a message from school leaders in both our current sectors that the workforce isn't there. So, I just want to be clear—I know you've had some engagement around the Bill—about what the engagement was with Welsh Government, because I assume that these concerns are not ones that have just come from the last couple of weeks, and what the response was about getting a workforce that can deliver against the shared aims and ambitions.

So, I've been involved in discussions for quite some time around this and, obviously, from—I'm a trade unionist—from my perspective, I'm always going to be looking at what that means for our workforce. I think one of the concerns that we raised early on, and it's with this piece of legislation, but we also raised it with other pieces of legislation as well, like the ALN legislation, for example, is that nobody thinks of the practical implications of what you want to do. The ambitions are great, but you need to speak to practitioners to find out what that would look like when you translate it from legislation to part of every-day school life. We have raised this time and time again. There have been many discussions around this. We have had a positive response, and our views are taken on board, yet this legislation has arrived without a workforce impact assessment. And if you're asking unions to say, 'Do you support the implementation of this Bill as it stands?', well, how can we, because we don't know what that's going to look like for the workforce? And that is a real frustration for us.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm trying to understand whether you've had a discussion, you've been told, 'It'll be fine', and this is like a field-of-dreams approach, of pass the Bill and the teachers will come, or is it that there is work that the Government is saying they'll do with you to try to get more people in? We regularly talk about teacher incentives for different subjects, but we regularly hear, in any part of Wales, about challenges with recruitment, so I'm trying to understand whether it's something where you don't think you've had a completed discussion, or whether you think that actually you just disagree with the view of the Government.

I don’t think it's accepted that we cannot recruit.

Okay.

So, I think we talk about shortage subjects. So, if you can imagine going out to get a physicist who speaks Welsh, it's like hen's teeth—they don't exist. So, when we have raised the recruitment and retention crisis, it's listened to, but nothing changes. And I think when you look at the numbers entering initial teacher training who wish work through the medium of Welsh or are Welsh speakers, it's not growing. So, we're not getting the increased pool of recruits that we need to facilitate this Bill. And I think we all want to. We all want to make our schools where our language flourishes, but we can't because we don't have the skills and we don't have the people to do that.

I think what you said as well was really interesting. Another area that I think has been missed is skilling the workforce that are there at present. There isn't the capacity in the system to do that. So, we have these people who already want to teach, but they can't speak Welsh. Now, are we missing a trick there to enable those people to learn and to become bilingual themselves and take that into their already workplaces?

Okay. So, I want to move on because I can almost feel the Chair looking at me and the clock.

But the next area of questions is about the framework used to try to measure and understand progress. So, the Bill proposed the common European framework of reference for languages. Let's call it 'CEFR'; it’ll be easier than saying that long title all the time. And the question is whether you think it can be applied effectively in the context the Bill proposes, bearing in mind what you've already said about the fit with the curriculum, which is a significant reform in itself. So, I want to try and understand: do you think that framework and what is proposed in the Bill is appropriate, and how could you practically deliver it?

I'm happy to come in. I'm not an expert on language frameworks, and I know, in particular, this framework is not specifically designed to look at Welsh, but it's a pan-European approach. When I've looked into this, I feel it's appropriate, in terms of the way that the approach categorises use of language, I would say, within the non-statutory framework that already exists, as there's already a requirement for us to look at the level of fluency of pupils inside school. So, I think that's probably an encouraging part of this process, that we've identified at least a mechanism by which we can begin to look at the acquisition of language in school and what we can do around it.

It'll sound like we're a broken record and we're going back to things, but I just think that, in terms of its use, we go back to practical considerations. I think this may come up again, just in terms of the pupils that would attend. In my school, for example, there are going to be many pupils who are struggling just with the acquisition of English as a language, and they would not particularly be identified within this framework. They would be 'no Welsh speaking skills at all'. We would also have very, very able pupils that, as we get towards the end of A-level, may be beyond some of the areas they're looking at because they're looking to move into degree subjects. So, I don't think it's particularly designed for schools, in terms of breaking things down to that level, but I think it is a welcome step forward in terms of providing a mechanism by which we can look at what's actually happening in school.

So, that's quite interesting. That comes into some of the other follow-up questions. In line with what we heard last week, Cymdeithas yr Iaith were very clear that they thought that the framework itself wasn't appropriate. That was partly because their view is that people should be Welsh speakers and you should think about frameworks for people who are learning Welsh from a Welsh-speaking perspective, as opposed to people learning Welsh and acquiring it as an additional language, and there is some sense in that. But I guess I'm trying to understand whether you think it's appropriate to have a single framework that you can understand across schools, because Cymdeithas's perspective was that it wasn't appropriate. I just want to be clear—I'm not putting words into your mouth—that having an already used framework is appropriate, so you don't have to reimagine something different, but it is then about how you use that to understand the differing levels of ability within each cohort. Is that fair?

Yes. I think the issue is that there are going to be people who provide evidence in terms of acquisition of language who are going to know a lot more about it than me. From my point of view, as a practitioner in school and a school leader, our pupils are not Welsh speakers, and we would be looking at ways that we can ascertain how we can move people through those journeys. I would go back to the earlier point, however, that once you start to build into that framework that there are mandatory targets, data collection and targets for pupils who are moving from A1s and B1s to C1s, then that creates a workload issue in schools and an extra level of bureaucracy that would cause me concern. But I think as a mechanism itself, and I've seen no others, I can see the logic in it.

Okay. So, can I just stick with the question about that, because I know you organise in the Welsh-medium sector as well? So, when you have pupils coming through the Welsh-medium sector, whether you think this framework is still appropriate, and the levels it has for 'basic', 'independent' and 'proficient' users, and whether that's a helpful yardstick, as it were—we're now talking in imperial measurements—a yardstick for acquisition and proficiency in the language in the Welsh-medium sector as opposed to the English. I understand what you're saying about the English-medium sector, and I'll come back to that.

I think there's a risk. We have a Curriculum for Wales that we have invested in, that we have worked as a profession to create together. Within that, within this—I won't be able to remember the letters—the CEFR was thought of within that, when the principles of progression and the development of learning progression was done within Curriculum for Wales. So, we would believe that it would add a level of complexity, and it would almost detract from what we spent the last 10 years creating, which is about our curriculum in Wales delivering the progression we want. We would like to see them combined. We would like it not to stand outside Curriculum for Wales. We would like to see them within Curriculum for Wales. Is that right, Julian?

Yes, I would agree. Schools operate to already established steps—whatever you want to call them—like the progression steps in the Curriculum for Wales. You've got externally verified standards for GCSE and A-Level, and I personally think there is more mileage in a linguist, and I'm certainly not a linguist, but a linguist mapping the CEFR against the existing standards and seeing if you meet a certain standard what criteria they think that hits, because if you put a third layer into schools, you're just going to generate confusion. We have progression steps and we have GCSE and A-Level standards to reach, so they can exist, and somebody else can see whether they believe that is generating the level of speakers that they want. That would be my view on it.

I guess it's just a point that comes back to the differing levels of proficiency and ability. So, we have this difficult question about what is a Welsh speaker. Is a basic user a Welsh speaker or do you need to be a proficient user? I'm interested in your perspective. I have a particular view, but I'm not going to try to tell you what mine is and say, 'Now, do you agree with me?' But I'm interested, given that you're practitioners and leaders, about what you think the threshold for a Welsh speaker should be or could be, because in all of this you're going to be measured, aren't you? So, wanting to reach a particular level and what that means for the acquisition at the end of a school period of time, whether it's at GCSE or A-Level, and where you think this threshold for a Welsh speaker is. It goes back a bit to our other work of when do we reach 1 million and how do we understand that. I mean, if you don't have a view, you don't have a view. You don't have to—.

No, I have a view, yes. I mean, I'm a headteacher. [Laughter.]

We haven't had many heads who don't have a view, as I regularly find out in private meetings in their schools.

Do you want to go?

You go first and then I'll follow up.

So, I think I would have a view. I'll start with this. So, I think that when we talk about the use of language and where we want people to get to, we don't want this to be about the symbolic acquisition of language, that we know x amount of words, that we've got our vocabulary, that we can do our days of the week or anything else. Part of my job in my school, my mission statement, is to prepare pupils for the world of work. Some of that work that they go into may be in a bilingual setting. So, what you want to do is you need to have a level of proficiency that allows people to be comfortable around the use of language, both listening to language and understanding what is being said to them and speaking that language as well.

I think within the CEFR framework, a B1 is about your practical and functional level of language that can contribute to the goal—I'm quoting this now—of creating a bilingual Wales. That seems to be a level that, in terms of reading, you may talk about, but for me it's more of a 'Does it meet the eye test?' Are these pupils who are going into the workplace or going into a place where Welsh is being spoken comfortable to be around that language and feel that they can contribute? That's the way I would look at it.

Everybody is different, every pupil is different, and every person's experience is different, but broadly speaking, I think, if I was recruiting, for example, somebody who I was looking to to bring in a degree of bilingualism, I would be really looking to see if they were coming out of the Welsh sector first in terms of their own education, or if they'd come out of the English sector, I'd really be looking at A-level, rather than GCSE, as the benchmark of thinking that this is somebody with a degree of Welsh that could become a good level of professional proficiency. In the same way, for example, if I was looking for somebody to teach geography who wasn't a geography teacher, I would typically be looking to see if they had that at A-level to give them that baseline of knowledge and skills that they need to use. It's more the A-level than the GCSE I'd use as a baseline there, but each child is different.

I think you've answered the last question, which is about CEFR not providing a description of people with no level of Welsh ability, so I don't think I need to ask that question. There are others that we could follow up in writing, Chair.

Thank you. We'll now take some questions from Tom Giffard.

Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for coming in. Following on, I guess, from the point that Vaughan was making, focusing on the English language or English-medium sector, the Bill mentions, in schools in that sector, all pupils becoming essentially basic users by the time they finish compulsory education. How practical do you think that is in that sector?

I'll kick off on that one. Without being funny, it comes back down again to your level of what a basic user is. If you regard a basic user as somebody who has completed GCSE, then virtually everyone who comes out of the English sector will have done a GCSE in Welsh by the end of year 11. There are exceptions based upon the particular criteria in the law, as you know, but typically everybody who is coming out of the English sector will study Welsh through to the age of 16, and typically would complete the GCSE in it or a similar qualification. It then comes down to other people determining whether that gives them a level of basic Welsh speaking, or not. And I think that really needs to come from people who are professionals in that field and in linguistics, et cetera. But that's the benchmark that we operate to at the moment. And then obviously the same thing applies, but at a higher level, in the Welsh sector. I keep pointing because we would have had a colleague from the Welsh sector with us today, but Estyn have called.

I understand that.

Just to echo again, I think we cannot ignore the availability of the workforce. So, the practical issues we face are very related to our ability to recruit and to retain staff.

I would like to say as well that we need to be fair to other colleagues and to the Welsh Government that there are creative initiatives going on. If I look at my own school, and this is picking up my experience when I was head of Ysgol Dyffryn Taf in Whitland in Carmarthenshire previously, we worked with e-sgol at A-level. So, we were offering Welsh at A-level, being delivered in school with us and in collaboration with other schools in the area, and we managed to double the numbers of people who have come in studying Welsh in that way.

However, I would stress as well, to pick up on the points we made earlier, we are still operating the class numbers at a lower level than we would do for other subjects at A-level because we've made a personal commitment to it and because we recognise the national mission and so on, and that this is the right thing to be doing. But that level of innovation, and so on, does need additional funding. To be fair, we have a small amount of additional funding that has come in from e-sgol. I think there is a lot of innovative practice out there, but it doesn't overcome the practical problems that we've talked about.

If we go back to recruitment, for example, to recruit a Welsh teacher to teach Welsh in the English sector who is not already in a school teaching Welsh would be unbelievably rare. It would be the newly qualified teachers coming out of the system, of which there are not many. So, systemically, whilst I might be able to recruit to my school, I'm then generating a hole for another school down the line, and so on. Systemically, it remains a problem. There is no net gain there.

Thank you. Given that these primarily English schools are being required to provide 10 per cent Welsh language education, and that can include the teaching of Welsh as a subject, how much of an increase does that actually entail, and what kind of proportion do English-medium schools provide at present? I know in your written evidence, both unions have said there'd be a considerable increase in the amount of Welsh language education many schools provide, so I'm just keen to get a kind of acid test, really, on where we are and where this Bill will take us.

I think that the majority of schools at key stage 4 are very close to the 10 per cent. When you look at key stage 3, I would say it's less so, but you need to remember the impact even a small increase could have. If you had one additional hour every two weeks, for a child in a 1,200-pupil school, which is quite normal, you're looking at another half teacher that would be required to deliver that. And then when you add in key stage 3, which may need double that or triple that, you're going to be looking for two permanent Welsh teachers. Again, I completely agree that 10 per cent is appropriate. However, we need the people in the classrooms able to deliver it.

If I could just add on that, quickly, a reflection on the primary school situation. Again, it's very different. You could line up 10 primary schools and they'd all have different percentages in terms of teaching. Again, a lot of it would come down to capacity, where they are, which part of Wales they're in, and I think that needs to be taken into consideration as well.

Is that covered—? Sorry, I know Cefin's going to ask later about the exemption criteria, but is that covered in that, do you think, sufficiently?

Probably not sufficiently. Again, I think we would ask that further conversations be had with primary schools in particular around this, because of course secondary will have dedicated Welsh language teachers, which primary schools won't have, and that needs to be taken into consideration, I would say.

Just to put a bit of detail on it, in my school, we'd be up close to the 10 per cent at key stage 4, so GCSE and above. At key stage 3 it's about 6 per cent. Then, you will be looking at a significant increase in terms of periods that you're going to put in, and then there are workforce issues. I think the point that I would make around that as well is it's not just around the workforce. If you make that additional commitment in an already crowded curriculum, then you're going to put an extra 4 per cent or 5 per cent of time into it, then something's got to not be taught, and then identifying what is not going to be taught would be a challenge for schools. Are we not going to teach creative arts, are we not going to teach numeracy or literacy skills, or are we not going to teach sport or physical education? We teach all of those things because they're really important. We try to walk a really fine line to identify where the priorities are, but I think when you start talking about statutory implementation of a percentage of lessons that need to be delivered in that way, it creates a challenge. And then just to echo what Laura was saying, particularly in small or rural primary schools, where you are literally bound by the skill set of a very small number of teachers who are delivering on a particular issue, it's even more of a challenge.

Do you mind answering your own question? What does get missed out?

I would really struggle with that.

Could I just add in about teaching assistants as well? For all children to have the opportunity to develop their language skills, all of them have to have the support that they are entitled to to do that. However difficult it is to recruit Welsh-speaking teachers, it's harder to recruit Welsh-speaking support staff, and I think there is a lot of work that is needed there.

Finally from me, what are your views on the requirement for all schools to have a Welsh language education delivery plan? How much of a change do you anticipate that would mean for schools in practice?

I'll come in on that. Obviously, there needs to be some kind of plan of how to do this. Again, we need to come back to the workload issue, because what we don't want is a plan for a plan's sake and a document for the sake of it. What we would be looking for is something that already sits within the school's existing frameworks, like the school development plan, so that we're not creating more work. I think we also need to be mindful that although this legislation will obviously have an impact on schools, there are a number of different areas, a number of priorities that schools are dealing with at the moment, not least numeracy and literacy, which the Welsh Government has been very clear is a priority for schools at the moment. I think what we need to be careful of is that we don't overburden the system with plans; what we want is action and support to be able to do that.

I think with the plans as well, if you're going to be truly strategic to do this, you need to be looking at three, five, seven-year plans. At the moment, school leaders will be lucky to have a one-year financial plan. So, if you haven't got that long-term financial stability, it makes planning superficial, and it can mean that you can't achieve what you're trying to achieve. I do think 90 per cent of schools do have a Welsh language plan within their normal school development plan. However, it's unlikely to get where we need to get without the extra funding.

On a similar note, one of the reservations you always have is planning for things that you can't fulfil. Curriculum change takes a bit of time, you have to plan it in advance in order to deliver it down the line, and if you start planning curriculum changes that you can't then easily shift once you've timetabled and so on, knowing that you won't be able to recruit, you are planning for failure, I'm afraid, on that front, because if you build in additional capacity and then cannot recruit for it, that means that you are doing a disservice to the study of Welsh, to be frank, if you can't put Welsh speakers in front of people who are learning Welsh. I know that sounds blindingly obvious, but that's the truth of it, and so it's all back down to the same thing. It's not a reluctance on our part to plan, it's an unwillingness to plan when we know that we're not going to have the staff to be able to deliver what we want to deliver.

Thank you, Tom. Now we have questions from Cefin Campbell, please.

Thank you very much. I will be asking my questions in Welsh. The NAHT, in their evidence—and I would be pleased to hear the views of everyone on this—have suggested that targets should be set based on demand for Welsh language education. Since 2017, the Welsh Government has adopted a different strategy, moving away from measuring demand and is eager to see the development of Welsh language education happening in a proactive and systematic manner. So, does your view contradict the view of Welsh Government on that point specifically, and do you feel that areas where, traditionally, the demand for Welsh language education has been less are less important?

I'll come in on that. Yes, I suppose our view does contradict the view of the Welsh Government, for numerous reasons that we've already set out. I think what we are concerned about, and we're coming back to the same theme here, is schools' ability to be able to deliver. Our members work in a very demanding education space with lots of pressure on schools to deliver in a whole host of areas. Our concern is that if we are not listening to the demands of that community and we are putting something out there that perhaps isn't what they want, where is the focus for education?

We are worried about the fact that schools are having so many things put on them, that if we start to put out policy positions, like the Welsh Government have on the promotion of the language—again, we're not against the promotion of Welsh, and I feel like a broken record saying that, but I think it's important to say that—I think we start to go down a route—. 'Where does it end?' I suppose is our point. So, if the Welsh Government decided that something else that they would like to promote should be a priority, okay, that's fine, but I think we need to look at what schools are able to deliver.

Again, we're coming back down to that capacity issue and prioritisation. We are not saying that the promotion of the Welsh language shouldn't be a priority. What we are saying is that in a crowded education space where everything is a priority, what are schools suppose to focus on? Again, that comes back down to those discussions we're having with the Government about what is it that you want us to deliver with this workforce, because this is the limited resource that we have, this is the capacity that we have. Where is the priority? At the moment, it feels very cluttered.

In terms of the—and I quote again—'bureaucratic burdens' that you feel that are already placed on teachers, do you think that this is a different kind of burden, as opposed to all the other education strategies that are put on schools?

I wouldn't call it a burden, because I think a burden is negative. I think what I would say—to put it into a better context—is that it is another demand placed on schools, and I think we need to be very careful that we don't put too much pressure and then we end up with the unintended consequences. We've all spoken about the recruitment and retention issues that we have that already exist in schools, outside of talking about this piece of legislation. We need to do better at recruiting and retaining those people to work in the whole profession so that there is that greater capacity.

Okay. A final question. This relates to the exemption of schools, and in the draft Bill, it mentions providing primarily English language schools with two periods of exemption from the requirement to deliver that 10 per cent of the curriculum taught through the medium of Welsh. Do you believe that that is fair and reasonable?

I think it delays the issue. I think the exemption does nothing to remove the issue; it just mitigates for it. And, with two lots of exemption, does that suddenly mean that the workforce will appear? So, rather than thinking about exemption, for ASCL Cymru, we would be thinking about making sure that there are the resources and facilities available so that the exemption isn't needed.

I think we are running the risk a little of putting the horse before the cart. I think, at the point at which mandatory targets are introduced, we need to ensure that the workforce is there and that schools are perfectly capable of meeting those targets, because, at the minute, as I say, it's not about willingness, it is about capacity and I think we need to build that capacity first and then, from that point, it's perfectly reasonable, if the capacity is there, to say, 'There's your target. Do your best to meet it'. I don’t think that's a reasonable position at all when the capacity is not there.

It feels like the exemption is half of the equation. So, we would be aware of the length of time that we could introduce the exemption for. We know that we want a million Welsh speakers by 2050, but say, by 2035, what's the target for the number of Welsh language speaking teachers within the system? I think if we knew that that target was being set and would be met, then you could begin to plan for when you would be in a position to implement some of the provisions here.

Could I bring Tom in quickly here, please?

Yes. Sorry, just quickly. You sort of answered the question I was going to ask at the end there. But, Claire, you mentioned that the exemptions in particular delay the issue, and I forget who, but one of you said that this was not the right time to bring this Bill in. I'm curious as to whether, based on how you see the sector today and projected into the near future, there is a point in time when you have confidence that this Bill would be deliverable, because you've mentioned recruitment as being the golden thread that goes through everything that we've said. Based on your assessment, is there a point at which you'd feel confident that this stuff could be delivered?

I think it could be very much driven by the numbers entering initial teacher training. So, it has flatlined since 2020; there's no big increase. If we can get the people in for ITT, that will allow us then to start to recruit. So, if we allow that to be the identifier—

But that's not happening at the moment—

At the moment, it has flatlined.

—so, in your assessment, if that continues in that way, this can't be delivered.

Yes, because there won't be the people there to do it and that would be a real shame. What I think we need to do is really focus on ITT and use that to identify where the system is in its capacity to implement the Bill.

Okay.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Gareth Davies, please.

Thank you very much, Chair. I think, for me to fully understand, obviously, the origins of the Bill, we've got to strip it right back to why the Bill was even coming into place from the Welsh Government. Obviously, we've got the target of a million Welsh speakers, 'Cymraeg 2050', and I think the principle of that is to embed it within young people and the education system in order to try and achieve that. But then I think, 'Why has that Bill come into place?' Is it because that's a question of the existing systems that are in place, which are not serving their purpose? We've got the Welsh Language Act of 1993, so it's 31 years old. So, what do you think the education and the public sectors have been doing so fundamentally wrong within those 31 years to not make any progress, from the evidence that you've given this committee this morning, in regard to that? Because if you strip that right back, you take that to a micro level, you’ve got clusters within local authorities, Welsh language clusters, that could migrate, potentially, with English language-speaking schools, for example. So, what has fundamentally gone wrong, in your professional opinion, within those public services and education systems over the past 31 years, and potentially since devolution?

I don't actually think that's the right question, sorry. If we look at what’s gone wrong in the past, where we can’t capture now why we haven’t got enough people in the profession, I’m not sure we can ever capture what’s gone wrong. I think there is a system where the Welsh language has been tracked through the census, and it showed in 2021 that it’s at the lowest level that it’s ever been at, but I can’t answer the why. I can’t say what’s caused that issue. For me, there are simply not enough people in the system to deliver the Bill.

I know, for example, that you were the previous head of Rhyl High School in my constituency. So, what stopped you from working with the likes of Ysgol Dewi Sant, the likes of Ysgol Glan Clwyd?

Nothing.

So, why couldn’t Rhyl High School, for example, as an English-language school, benefit from the Welsh language provision that was just a few miles down the road, and that we could perhaps migrate those systems together?

Because there wasn't the capacity in that system. If we took capacity out of Glan Clwyd, who backfills that gap? There aren’t big pockets of capacity that allow those schools to come in to other schools. Also, the skill is very different to teach second language Welsh. I’ll talk about Rhyl, which I would not have done, but I will talk about Rhyl because that’s where I was a headteacher, where over 50 per cent of the population do not see themselves as Welsh. It’s a very different skill set. So, I think to try and say that it is the role and responsibility of the Welsh-medium sector, which have their own key priorities to deliver, to then support a much bigger English-medium sector around them, I don’t think there’s the capacity in the system to do that.

Right, okay. So, in terms of going back to the original question of what we’re trying to achieve here being a target of 2050, do you think that’s achievable within the parameters that we’re talking about in this session this morning?

It depends on the workforce—truly and honestly, that's the thing that will make it work or not. If we have the workforce in place, you have the want of the education system to make this happen, but it will be driven by who's there to deliver it.

How do we get over those barriers, then? How do we solve the problem? Obviously, we talk about issues that have happened in the past, and that’s all we can discuss, obviously, but in terms of what solutions we find for the future, what do you think we can do better in order to try and achieve those goals?

I'm not sure that I'm skilled to say that. I know what education do, I've seen how education embrace the Welsh language, and I've also seen the stresses that are created by trying to give more than the system can give. But this, to me, is a cultural issue. This is an issue that's based on community. It's bigger than education. I'm not actually sure how that happens, but I know education will want to take its role in making it happen.

Essentially, in that regard, is the system flawed, then, in that it can't achieve what—? So, you've got the education sector here, and you've got the Welsh Government wanting to achieve something on the other side. If the two don't marry up, is the system flawed in that sense, then?

I think it's probably a bit unfair to expect the leadership unions to decide whether or not the Welsh Government’s 2050 policy is unfair. That’s probably outside of our remit. All we can talk about is education. From a workforce perspective, again, kind of irrespective of if we’re talking about the Welsh language, we’re talking about recruitment and retention of great teachers and leaders and teaching assistants. We are not doing that. There is a variety of reasons why we believe we’re not getting those people coming into the profession. We can talk at length about our concerns around workload of teachers and leaders, around the intolerable pressure put on schools that is basically driven by a lack of funding because schools’ capacity has reduced dramatically. If you’ve got fewer members of staff having to deliver at least the same, or more demands placed on schools to deliver more, then, of course, that's going to have a negative impact on how the profession feel and how they're viewed from outside.

We know that, in the last five years—the data tells us—50 per cent of people that come into initial teacher training leave within the first five years. Well, that's a damning indictment of the system. What we need to do is make sure that we promote being a teacher as the best career possible. There is nobody who works in education that comes into it for the money and the delight of being a teacher; they come into it because they want to serve their communities, they want to give something back to the children and young people at their school. We need to make sure that we create the conditions of service where teachers and leaders can thrive, where it is a positive experience, where they're allowed to focus on what they went into it for, which is teaching and learning, and not a box-ticking exercise of assessment and accountability. Of course, there must be accountability—we're talking about education—but not overburdensome accountability. If we create the conditions of service, and we do that right, and we start to see an increase in people coming into the profession, that will help, and that's all we can talk about.

Sorry, Gareth, can I bring Vaughan in quickly here?

Just in terms of the discussion we're having now, it seems like it's not a lot to do with the Bill. There's a broader discussion about why people do not want to be teachers, and there are pressures outside what the Government does and about what people face at school gates and others. So, I'm trying to understand, with this discussion, whether we're really going back to the point Cefin was making about acquisition in a school in terms of how schools could and should be fairly judged, and what takes place in the school, and the different issue of language use. And just correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems we're confusing 2050 and a million Welsh speakers with what the Bill is trying to do, which will contribute towards that, but it's fundamentally about what we can do to improve the teaching of Welsh, the acquisition of Welsh in the sector, and how to grow that within schools, and there's a different challenge about how we persuade people to use the Welsh they have got, if that's fair to say. It just seemed we got a bit lost in not talking about the Bill.

Do you mind if I respond on that? And forgive me if I've got this wrong, but the premise of your question appeared to be that there was a failure on the part of the public sector. We've had compulsory Welsh within schools for over 30 years. We've delivered on all our obligations on that front. The Welsh sector is bigger than it's ever been. Primary schools are far more Welsh than they were when I started teaching in terms of the Welshness that you will encounter, the use of the Welsh language, and this is anecdotal, but that is also my experience of secondary schools as well—considerably more spoken Welsh being heard around and about in the English sector than there would have been when I started teaching in 1993. So, I think the premise of the question that the public sector has failed is wrong. What we can't do is force people to self-identify as Welsh speakers subsequently when they leave school.

I don't think that's a fair assessment of my comments, that it's a failure of the public sector—

Okay, forgive me, then. That's how I understood it.

It's more for argument's sake. It's because, obviously, we have had legislation embedded within Welsh society for over 30 years, but, based on the evidence that you've given prior to my line of questioning, that's why it led to the question of—. If those systems had been in place for over three decades, then the comments that you've made so far don't allude to the fact that we've made any progress within that time in terms of that. But it's quite refreshing to hear that now—you believe that there is some progress in that regard.

Yes, there is, definitely. I'll pick up Mr Gething's point there, as well, that it's about culture subsequently. Doing Welsh in school and self-identifying as a Welsh speaker are not the same thing. It's probably not the time, with this Bill, to be trying to join those two things together.

Well, I certainly hear more Welsh in schools compared to when I first got elected. As a local Member, going around, I definitely hear more Welsh in primary and secondary schools now, compared to 2011. That is absolutely my experience. But that's a different question we're trying to answer with the Bill, I think. Sorry, Chair.

That's okay. Thank you. I'll finish off with the final question, then. To what extent do you agree with the creation of a National Institute for Learning Welsh, and the role that the Bill sets out for it? And how much of a role do you believe it should have in terms of statutory education, and how would you like to see it working with existing organisations, such as schools?

I'm happy to come in on that. I think there would need to be more information about the way that that body would be constituted. I think one of the things that we suffer from in Wales is particularly around academic research into whole different areas of our business. If there was a body that was created that was producing information for schools about language acquisition, clear academic research on different strategies that can be implemented and work, promoting the language, and you're still talking about increasing the richness of culture around schools, I think that's only to be welcomed. I think that the challenge comes when institutions then begin to create demand or begin to statutorily impact on schools in terms of expectations of what needs to be done.

Okay. Anybody else?

I think it's hugely important that it's a partnership, that this organisation would work in partnership with local authorities and schools. I think it's also really important that they work outside three to 16, so school leaders keep the autonomy of Welsh language development within their schools.

I don't want to sound like I'm stating the obvious as well, but if they start recruiting teachers out of the Welsh sector or the English sector, we're going to have another problem there as well. Joking aside—although I wasn’t actually joking, to be honest—there's also a practical consideration of the point at which they train staff, because presumably they're going to be coming into schools et cetera, and we would fully welcome that. But obviously you don't want to do that to the detriment of the existing teaching that's taking place. And there also needs to be recognition that the time to do that might vary between the secondary and the primary sectors. For example, in what is known as gained time in the secondary sector, where you have exam classes that are no longer with us, and you use that time for particular, targeted training, that would be a lovely time in the secondary sector to focus on Welsh language acquisition et cetera. But I'm very conscious that my primary colleagues don't get that gained time and, quite rightly, would say, ‘Well, what about us?’ And they would have a point.

Thank you. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you so much.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We will now take a short break until 10:40.

Welcome back. We'll move on now to agenda item 3. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement they've had in the development of the Bill? If we can start here, please.

Hello. Bore da, everybody. Good morning. Nice to be here, nice to see you. My name is Urtha Felda. I am officer with the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers, the teachers union. Apart from the response I've sent to you, I've actually had no engagement at all with the development of this Bill.

Good morning. I'm Ioan Rhys Jones, general secretary of UCAC. My intention is to respond in Welsh this morning where possible. We've had no involvement in the legislation further than a response to the White Paper, and to present the paper that we've put forward to your committee. We've had some conversations with members of the Government, as has happened with every union. Thank you.

Bore da. Good morning. I'm Nicola Fitzpatrick. I am the interim Wales secretary for the National Education Union, and, similar to Urtha, apart from the written submissions we've put in, I've not had any involvement to date with that.

Bore da. Mairead Canavan. I'm an executive member for the NEU, and, apart from having discussions, I haven't had any involvement with the Bill.

Okay. Thank you. Members have a series of questions to ask you this morning, and I'll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and whether you believe it should be a priority at the current time, including whether it should be a priority within education specifically?

Okay, I'll start, sorry.

I have to say that I've learned Welsh, but I don't have enough confidence to answer the questions in Welsh this morning, so I will turn to English, but I do understand everything that is said if people do speak in Welsh.

So, my initial thoughts: I really support the development of the Welsh language. I have learnt and I ensured my children learnt. In terms of priorities at this time, obviously, it is a priority for education specifically from the get-go, from three years old. My grandchildren have just started meithrinfa—really, really important. Tomos is coming home using Welsh now. That's key as it goes through. So, absolutely crucial for education.

I think, for me, though, in terms of priorities, just to keep it short, there are two main issues. One is I'm aware there's no slack in schools at the moment for more changes, and there are lots of arguments I could put forward here—all of which I'm sure you're really familiar with—but the stress around the introduction of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, I know that teachers are struggling with that 20 per cent drop-off and how they manage that diversity in their classroom. Then there's also the Curriculum for Wales that people are still working to. So, there is no slack in the system at the moment.

I think my second point on my initial response is to consider how we encourage and entice people to want to learn Welsh. I still hear comments that are negative, which is really sad to hear, but I do still hear it. And I think, without that backing up any changes, it's going to be really, really difficult to succeed. I also wonder, having been aware of the group of indigenous minority languages in Europe under the European Union, how they have gone about increasing the numbers of people that speak their minority language, as well as increasing the standard. That maybe would be very appropriate for us going forward here. So, in general, I absolutely support developments; I'm just aware that there is no slack, worried about staff and parents having a panic. I'm sure we'll go further into it as we go on. Thank you.

Thank you. Ioan.

Clearly, we welcome the Bill—it is a key turning point, we believe, in the history of legislation in Wales, and is a turning point in terms of placing that statutory basis and foundation in terms of the target for the language, and we see that it is a natural step in terms of the paths that the Labour Welsh Government over the past few years have taken us on, and we welcome it a great deal. It's related to the fact, of course, that it's everybody's language, as has been emphasised several times. Of course, there are several issues that I'm sure we'll discuss during this session that we have a few doubts about.

There's ambiguity in terms of the terms used and the expectations perhaps. There's a question, isn't there, in terms of what Welsh language education is, which has already been discussed by this committee, and there are concerns in that regard. There is a great deal of work to do in terms of communication by the Government to ensure that this legislation is a success. And of course, the very, very big thing, as we've already heard this morning, is a lack of the human resources required to deliver and undertake this work of hitting that target of a million Welsh speakers. And there are questions to ask with regard to initial teacher training, and the day-to-day, lifelong training provided. And there is a question that arises in terms of ambition and the standards and expectations. And I think it's very, very important that this legislation is put in place to ensure that those expectations and those standards are entirely clear.

I accept entirely what's said in terms of the pressures within the system, and I fully accept that workload is going to be an issue. But I think that, because there is such emphasis placed on this by the Government, it's appropriate that it is introduced, and, of course, the fact that there are so many things in regulations and subordinate legislation means that there is flexibility in terms of introducing the steps that do need to be taken. We have questions perhaps in terms of the fact that regulations and subordinate legislation have such a prominent role in the legislation, but we do welcome it, and we do think that it's vitally important. And of course, the vast majority of our members have dealt with the issues that arise in the legislation on a daily basis for many years. So, we welcome it and we praise the Government for introducing it.

Thank you. Anybody else?

So, the NEU supports 'Cymraeg 2050' as a long-term strategy and ambition, and I would agree with many of the points that Urtha made too, so I won't repeat them. But, from our point of view, there needs to be a commitment to significant resource funding and training, and the fact that it needs to be done with the profession and not to them. I think that some of the other concerns that we've got will come up in different parts of the conversation. So, in principle, yes, we support the Bill, but there are questions around training and funding and the impact that that's going to have on the workforce, which I think we'll come to later. Thank you.

Can I just add, as the only in-service teacher on the panel, that I have a lot of worries about workload, about teachers being expected to do training outside of their work day, because that is already expected in some areas. And the funding is needed to ensure that they're going to have time out of school to retrain, train for the necessary skills.

Okay. Thank you. The Bill requires the Welsh Government to include statutory targets in its Welsh language strategy to increase the provision of Welsh language education and increase the number of people who are learning Welsh. How will this affect schools and your members, and do you agree with the role the Bill gives to the education system in reaching the 'Cymraeg 2050' target of 1 million Welsh speakers? I know you've just touched on that, but—.

It will affect teachers, and we already touched on the different ways that it will affect teachers, but the way to prevent it affecting teachers badly is to put the resources in place. That's such an obvious place to start. I think, before that, there is going to be a need to address the fear that teachers will have. I was supporting a school that were going through a Welsh in education strategic plan process, and despite reassurances about the support that would be given to them on learning Welsh and support to learn how to deliver lessons through the Welsh language, they were really scared, and many of them just wanted to leave. At that school, it didn't happen at that time, but that is almost a panic button, in a way—it may not match reality, it's just that's how people feel. So, it's okay to say, 'Yes, we support it', and, of course, schools have a really significant role, it wouldn't happen without schools, but you still need to be addressing the barriers. It's not just saying, 'Yes, it's great', you have to make sure that the barriers are looked at.

Obviously, those fears of teachers are one of them, there are other staff in the school that are affected, parents—. I would really need to see an intense education programme on really understanding the benefits of learning a second language generally for the development of a young person's brain and capability in going forward in whatever path they want to take. So, a lot of education around that, and somehow addressing the arguments that, 'We don't need a Welsh school here, no-one speaks Welsh here.' If you're not physically placed near a school, how do you address those barriers?

So, I absolutely support the aim of this Bill, it's just it needs a lot more detail, a lot more thinking, a lot more planning, a lot more on how we bring people along with us. An English school in that sector, that primarily English sector, I know the Estyn report has made reference to the fact about the really poor planning in terms of developing Welsh, but if they're not achieving, they're going to be very disheartened. So, it's really important that there's a whole 360 promotion taken around how this is actually going to become embedded as a valid and really important focus for Cymru going forward. Thank you.

It will come as no surprise to you that our members are entirely supportive of the objectives of the Bill. They don't anticipate that there will be major changes for most of them in terms of the expectations of them. Those expectations are already in place, because if you're talking about Welsh-medium schools in many local authorities, the emphasis in the WESPs and so on is on those schools to take action and to plan. So, that emphasis already exists on the schools where the vast majority of our members teach.

We also accept that the demands on leaders, as you've already heard, are likely to increase somewhat, and that there needs to be guidance in that area, but we don't see the initial expectations anyway as being beyond reason. But, of course, to emphasise what's already been said, we do need to ensure that the funding is in place and that the resources are available to ensure the success of the Bill and the legislation more generally. So, it is important that we raise standards, it's important that there should be expectations put in place, because, on occasion, there is a view among our members that those expectations and those standards in many areas are not sufficient. Perhaps we can discuss that further later.

So, not to repeat any of the points that have already been made, I think our members do have worries, and I think, depending on which setting you teach in, those worries are going to be very different and that needs acknowledging. One of the things that we'd requested, and it may well come up later, is not only a workload impact assessment, but also that Welsh Government undertake a comprehensive audit of the education profession's Welsh language ability, so they've got a good starting point to know where that resource would need targeting, where that support would need to be, and again to speak to those people on the ground to address those concerns, because there is some anxiety about it, despite the long running time. So, I think, without that, it would be impossible to have realistic costings for the Bill. So, I think it's really important for that starting point. And, obviously, that's going to be varied in different settings, depending where you teach.

Thanks. Okay, thank you. We now have some questions from Vaughan Gething, please.

Thank you, Chair. I want to go back to the common European framework of reference for languages. We'll call it 'CEFR'; it'll make it much easier and shorter. The Bill suggests using this as the measuring tool, as it were, for the language acquisition acquired in schools. So, I want to understand whether you think it can be applied effectively to the context proposed in the Bill and its impact and fit with the curriculum. So, that's both whether you think it's an appropriate measuring tool, as it were, and then, to reach the expectations in the Bill, would that have an impact on the curriculum that we are still introducing across schools in Wales? Perhaps we can start with the NEU, because I know you had some comments on the amount of teaching you think might be required to reach level B1.

Okay. Yes, so, one of the things we'd say to start with is the tool, I suppose, in principle, we don't have an issue with, although it's unclear how it will be used as a measure, because our understanding is that it's a self-assessment tool regarding your proficiency. So, that would need some work, I think. But our concern was that it appeared to be that the proficiency level that was expected at B2 appeared to equate with, if you were going to equate it with any qualification in existence, the A-level standard. So, we would have concern whether that is realistically achievable and that schools should really be in a position to know not only the proficiency of their teaching staff, but also the levels that their children are at. So, we think schools should have a real involvement in those targets and the levels that learners are leaving school with.

So, do you think that will impact on the wider curriculum then? Is that, essentially, what your evidence is? Just so we understand. I don't want to put words in your mouth. We want to understand if you think it would or it wouldn't.

I think it would impact, really, and what our members are telling us is that even those that consider themselves to be proficient in Welsh and confident in Welsh, that might not necessarily equate to them being confident to teach in Welsh, not just generally, but subject specific. So, yes, it will.

Right.

I have a particular example of somebody in my district who is able to teach Welsh, but he's an ICT teacher. He has taught some Welsh in the past, basically because of the funding of the school and they couldn't get a Welsh teacher, but he didn't want to, and he doesn't want for that to encroach on his subject. And there are worries that teachers are going to be forced into teaching Welsh when they're really not comfortable, or even if they are comfortable, they don't really want to be teaching a large element of that.

Okay. Can I check if there is a different view from NASUWT? Because I want to come back onto some of the other points made around whether it's an appropriate framework for the Welsh-medium sector.

If you're having clear standards, you absolutely have to have some sort of framework, and this has got the advantage that it is widely used. I think my question really, in how it would operate in Wales, for us, is to go back to the organisation I mentioned earlier with the focus on indigenous European languages, the indigenous minority, and what we could learn from their approaches to increasing the numbers and the standards of the minority language that they work with. So, it is an understood standard to work with, but I do wonder if it's the best and if it's worth just checking other sources.

I think B2 is an aspiration and, in some ways, if the child has been learning Welsh since they were three even, like my grandson, Tomos, who’s learning Welsh now, by the time they're 16, 18, you would assume that B2, reasonably fluent—. I'm not sure if that equates to A-level, but I think that's a reasonable expectation for a school career, to learn Welsh, to be honest with you.

I wanted to move into the next point, which is that we’ve had evidence from other people about whether this is an appropriate framework for people who have either gone through the whole Welsh-medium system or, indeed, whether it's appropriate for people who come from a Welsh-speaking home, and so what that then means for the CEFR model, and whether a distinction can be made for those who already have the Welsh language. Because it’s essentially a system that understands and tries to give an assessment for additional language acquisition. And then there’s a second point around whether it matters for those people who don’t appear to have Welsh-medium ability at all, and there’ll be some children going through our system who you understand wouldn’t have that. I’m interested, Ioan, in your perspective on this.

Thank you. I think it’s important for us to bear in mind that we are looking at things differently from what is traditionally seen in the UK. There is one language. As you’ve already heard, I think, from the deputy director, there’s one language that transcends all others, if that's the right term, and everyone is expected to see things through the lens of that language. But we have to—and we welcome the move towards using the CEFR—move towards more of a European model, where there are two languages or three languages in use in a country, and the use of those languages is entirely clear, and everyone can place themselves on that CEFR range.

In terms of the use of the CEFR, just to take a step back, if I may, I again agree with the comments of the deputy director, and praise the fact that we are going to be moving, hopefully, the second-language GCSE along this path, because as Urtha said, after having had 12 years of Welsh-language education, surely that doesn’t correspond with use on the A1 level. So, it’s going to be a very, very important yardstick. And there is a question, of course, isn't there, in terms of whether we need to use the CEFR. Well, put very, very simply: you are either above the CEFR, below the CEFR, or you’re on the CEFR on a specific level in terms of the steps taken towards language acquisition.

So, we are very supportive of the idea. It does give a specific status. It’s a way for us to compare our pathways with those of other nations in Europe, where language acquisition does follow different models to the models that we see in England, and the predominant language of the majority. So, we welcome it completely. If somebody is above the CEFR, great. If they’re below it, then we need to ask questions on the background to that.

So, we’re regularly asking people what the level or the threshold is for someone to be a Welsh speaker. And the challenge is that sometimes this can be loaded in a way that isn’t helpful, I think, for people who want to be able to go out and use the Welsh they have. But given that we’re talking about acquisition in a context where schools will be measured, I’m trying to understand where you think the threshold for a Welsh speaker should be. Is it somewhere on the CEFR model? And are we talking, then, about the changes to be made to GCSE, where you’d say, 'Someone who does that should be considered a Welsh speaker'? Or do you think it should be somewhere else? Then there’s the different issue about how people describe themselves in the census, which is really about, I think, their confidence in themselves, which is something different as well.

Well, for me, anyone who is on the CEFR is a Welsh speaker. That’s the spirit of the Bill as introduced. We want to move away, as you’ve already heard, from, 'This post is Welsh essential', 'Welsh is desirable', 'Welsh isn’t essential.' Well, let us set it out along the CEFR, and say, 'Well, we expect people who work as a receptionist to be able to have very, very simple conversations in the Welsh language.'

The issue of noting that schools align with CEFR is a different issue, of course, but what we should be able to do is assess a pupil against the CEFR, and the expectations on schools should be entirely clear from the authority that the pupils are expected to reach level B2, for example, or B1 at least, by the end of their journey through school. So, it is a tool that we think will be very, very useful, but it is a tool. We shouldn't be saying, 'The school aligns with such and such', because as you've already heard, not everyone will get to B2. Some will get to B1 or A2, and that means that we need to target schools to be able to have confident B2 speakers, but we can't expect that to happen in every case. Every pupil is a unique individual and will have unique abilities.

I'll stop there, Chair, because I know we have lots of questions to get through, and I perhaps took up too much time in the previous section.

Thank you. Cefin, did you want to come in here quickly?

If I could come in with two questions on the back of your initial questions—and thank you all very much for your evidence, by the way, it's extremely useful. Some unions, including the ones we've met already this morning in the previous session, and one of you too, have suggested that this Bill shouldn't be placed on a statutory basis and that you would perhaps welcome the more pragmatic approach by Government some years ago of encouraging the teaching of Welsh in schools.

If we look at the facts and if we look at second language Welsh A-level as a yardstick in terms of fluency in Welsh, on average, only around 160 pupils across the whole of Wales study A-level Welsh as a second language, which is 0.5 per cent of all of the A-level courses completed in Wales. Professor Sioned Davies 10 years ago wrote a report saying that the teaching of second language in our schools has failed. So, if we're going to continue with that pragmatic approach of encouragement, something that has failed over 50 years, do you still believe that that approach is the right one, or should we be promoting the Welsh language on a more statutory basis?

I think in our response, we were emphasising—

I wasn't going to name you, but—. [Laughter.]

That's fine. In our response, we were welcoming the Bill, obviously, because it's really important for Wales. It's really important that the number of speakers increases as well as the standard increasing. I think what I didn't see and what my colleagues didn't see was the support that's needed. Through research that I've read, bilingualism is best promoted when the home setting supports it, and without that, even if you go down this legal route, I don't think you're going to succeed, because you're going to have such barriers, which could be increased—I don't agree with this—by people feeling that the language is being imposed on them. So, that's one aspect of it, and that brings me back to those previous points about sufficient funding to promote and to educate communities about the benefits of learning a second language and learning Welsh.

And then other research, which I think is quoted in some of the responses, shows the importance of the setting of the school and the level of language in the community. I heard somebody in my village—this is a young person of 16—saying that it's not cool to speak Welsh. So, that setting there is really, really important. So, it still needs a lot of promotion, a lot more messaging around the benefits. So, I think if you bring this Bill in without enough resourcing to support and to get over the other barriers, equally those increases that you want to see I don't think you will. That's where I'm coming from. I hope that's clear. I don't know if you have any other questions.

If I can just come back to the point you made about a feeling of the language being imposed in schools, I never hear that argument around physical education or music, or geography.

I'm not saying I agree with it. I don't agree with it.

It's always to do with the Welsh language. I'm intrigued to understand why that should be the case.

I don't have that thinking in my head, so I can't explain it, because I support the Welsh language. For some reason, people feel threatened by it. That's all I know.

Does anyone else have a comment on that?

If the system we're using at the moment has failed, then the NEU supports the strategy and we welcome the fact that there is a long lead-in time. Our worries are around having enough support and funding and training for teachers so that they are ready to take it on.

And the second question, if I may, to the NASUWT: you're concerned that English language schools are being targeted. I think that is negative terminology. I would like to turn that on its head and see this as an opportunity for English language schools to contribute towards the creation of a million Welsh speakers, becuase, if we want to see an increase in the next few years, we need far more Welsh-medium schools and we need more Welsh-medium provision in English language schools. So, do you believe that it's fair to say that English language schools are being targeted?

It's certainly an important topic that I agree with. There are two elements to the campaign in terms of changing the way that people use Welsh. One part of that is to increase the numbers who speak Welsh, and the second is to improve standards—I understand that.

But in my head, I've got an image of Rhyl and I'm just looking, in my helicopter, at what's going on in that area and how would the use of the Welsh language be increased. It would just need such a lot of resources. There would need to be more skilled teachers; there would just need to be ways of speaking with parents that would get them invovled. There would need to be ways of really engaging with the community to get them involved. Otherwise, you've got an island of a school without any community support.

And the other thing is around possible transport—how the children get to the schools that can provide Welsh. It doesn't just sit on its own—it does link to so many other things in the community. I don't think it's a positive or a negative thing—it is true. I read the Estyn report; there is an issue with planning in primarily English schools, which does need addressing, but it would only be addressed by sufficient resources supporting the aims in this Bill.

By the way, I don't think there's a single area in Wales where there isn't support for using the Welsh language outside of school—through the Urdd, through the mentrau iaith and many other organisations. I'm sure that there will be colleagues representing traditionally non-Welsh speaking areas who would support me here. I don't think that this is something exclusive to the areas where the Welsh language exists around the school; that's not what Welsh language education is—it should be available to everyone, wherever they live in Wales.

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure, sorry.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Tom Giffard, please.

Thank you very much. Can I start with the NEU, if that's okay? I note that in your written evidence to us you talked about the school language categories. You mentioned that the scale of change you thought would be needed to encourage a school to move from, say, a category 1 to a category 2 wouldn’t encourage schools to want to do that. I wonder whether you think that the ultimate aim, or the longer term goal of primarily English schools teaching their learners to become independent users, is therefore realistic.

I think our written evidence makes it clear that we don't think, at this stage, that it's entirely realistic without—just to repeat what many of us have said already—significant investment and training, because it all relates to the confidence and proficiency of those who are already in the profession.

And I think one of the things that we also said in that written submission was that we noted that there was an ability to move between categories but not back. But again, I think there's a bit of a lack of clarity around what that would mean and how involved in that process schools would be. And I think without repeating what our suggestions are for amendments, we think trade unions who represent the people working in those schools should be involved in the process of full consultation right from the beginning, and then we can actually talk about what these issues might mean in practice on the ground. So, I think, other than what we've written in our report, I've not got anything to add to that.

I don't know if anybody else has got any view on that, about the realistic nature of that goal.

Just to agree, to be honest with you, I don't think any of us disagree with the aims in this paper. It is how it links to the resources, current skills, but also whether there is slack in the system for teachers to take it up and move it forward. There's a lot of stress already there on teachers with the changes with the Curriculum for Wales. In schools, I don't think it's a lack of desire from teachers; it is 'Where does that get done in my school day?'

To go back to what Cefin mentioned, we have decades of failure in terms of ensuring that language acquisition happens in English-medium schools, so we do have to tackle that. We have to ensure that there are expectations in place, that standards are maintained. We have a problem in this regard, because in saying it, there's the excuse that, ‘Well, we live within six miles of the border.’ For example, where I grew up, that excuse is used time after time: ‘There will be no demand.’ But we do have to put the expectation in place.

One of our concerns with the Bill is that there is too much flexibility for the Welsh Ministers in terms of regulations and subordinate legislation. Perhaps we do need to use those in order to take us, step-by-step, in the direction of the target. This Bill should be able to be operational tomorrow, or next week, for example, but we have an issue with expectations, we have the problems, as we've already noted, in terms of recruitment and retention. One of the greatest issues within the problem is recruitment and retention of teachers in general, but in the Welsh-medium sector in particular. So, we do need to tackle that issue too.

We have to acknowledge that the ability to teach bilingually is an additional skill. We also need to recognise that the plans in place to recruit and retain teachers at the moment are inadequate. We need to tackle workload to ensure that enough people want to enter the profession. So, there are issues that we need to tackle. Is it ambitious? Yes, of course it's ambitious. Is it something that shouldn't be legislated on because of that? No, because we do need to have legislation in place, because we've seen that the former system has been a failure.

If I could ask you one further question, Ioan. You've mentioned this already. Do you have any concerns about any unintended consequences for Welsh-medium schools under the Bill? Perhaps the unique benefits of Welsh-medium education aren't as prominent, given the focus on increasing Welsh language provision in other schools.

Of course there are concerns, because what we consistently see under the current system is that schools note that they are bilingual schools, but ultimately they aren't bilingual schools at all, and we have several examples of those schools in all four corners of the nation, but particularly in the north-west and south-west, where they say, 'We're bilingual, we can provide that service', but it isn't being provided. So, what we need to do is to ensure that there is effective use of the CEFR, that authorities are entirely clear what the provision is, and that schools are transparent in terms of provision that they provide.

I am content with the path that the Bill outlines in terms of Welsh language education and the terms to an extent, but bilingual education doesn't mean bilingual education, does it? We have a problem that we have several models of bilingual education in Wales, as you've already heard. The bilingual education that you'll have in Gwynedd is very different to the bilingual education in Carmarthen or in Denbighshire. And so, in that regard, we do need to tackle those differences.

But the major thing that needs to happen here in order to ensure that we don't repeat the mistakes of the past is that the Government ensures that the messages are entirely clear and that support is provided, be that resource or funding, to ensure that the system succeeds, but also that it's entirely clear. For me, the only way to acquire a language effectively—and I understand there are other examples—is by immersion of individuals. The immersion schemes have been very, very successful and have fed into the Welsh-medium schools, or fed into bilingual schools in some examples, but I don't know whether that's appropriate in every part of Wales. So, yes, there are concerns, but the deputy director and the Minister have acknowledged the importance of communication in this area, and I would echo that.

Diolch yn fawr. One last question, for everybody, I guess: what are your views on the requirement for all schools to have a Welsh language education delivery plan and how much of a change is that in practicality, compared with what schools are already doing?

Well, I'll start, then—[Laughter.] The truth of the matter is, for our members, it isn't a major change. We have seen, and I've already mentioned this, that the WESPs do require clear planning that brings a number of people in Welsh-medium education, particularly in the east, into that planning process, as an essential part of delivering the WESP. But on a practical basis, I do think it's crucial that there is an expectation on every school to do this. I've already set out that it's everybody's language, it belongs to us all. It accords with the Curriculum for Wales, in that it relates to the aspects of cynefin and heritage, and it relates to our nation's culture. So, it's a key part, and we must ensure that every school seeks to ensure that their pupils do have the tools, if you like, to become citizens of twenty-first century Wales.

I think, as Ioan said, there are plans in schools already and, like there are WESPs coming from the local authority, the problem is implementation. So, it is not only writing and creating plans that are suitable for that school and that community, it is somehow ensuring that they are implemented, and that comes back to the points that we've actually all already mentioned, which are working with the parents and the children, making sure the staff have the skills, making sure there are enough resources available, which are about tools online, translation, all of that. So, these aims would be achievable, providing those kinds of caveats about the right support being put in place. I think, in the paper we sent in, we were asking for reassurance from the Welsh Government that that is what actually would happen. Thank you.

If it's okay, just to add to that, one of the things, again, going back to the impact assessments, would be the impact of it on different groups. So, for example, we mention in our submission children with additional learning needs. Yes, there's no requirement for this Bill to be implemented in specialist provision schools, but what about those children with additional needs, whose current needs are being met through universal provision? That needs to be considered. Again, it just goes back to that sufficient time out for training and support for those teachers who are at different levels in different settings that I mentioned at the beginning. So, that would be the bit that I would add—the impact on different groups and the support and the provision that are in place for that to allow it to be successful.

Can I just expand on that a little bit and say that children with additional needs in school at the moment are not getting the help they need anyway? So, it's hard to see how they would get the help that they would need to be fluent in Welsh as well.

Sorry, I think it's been made quite clear that there is flexibility within the Bill and that not every pupil in every school would have to reach these standards. Those with additional learning needs do receive a different education at times in any case, so we certainly don't have concerns in that regard. People will be able to access the language at the level that is appropriate for them.

Thank you. Thank you, Tom. We are running behind time, so if Members and witnesses could keep their questions and answers as concise as possible, please, I'd be very grateful. Cefin Campbell, please.

Thank you very much. You've mentioned several times the concerns with regard to the bilingual workforce, and that that workforce is vital to ensuring the success of the objectives of this Bill. Do you believe that sufficient emphasis is placed in the Bill as it stands on the development of a bilingual workforce? And, if you do believe that there is insufficient emphasis, how can we strengthen that within the Bill and which will turn into practical action in due course?

Reading the Bill as it is, I recognise that there's a lot of detail yet to be developed. I think what is absolutely crucial for teachers to feel confident that they're going to be given the appropriate training would be to see a programme of what is available, what standards are expected, how it would work in practice, how teachers are going to be covered and how they are going to get released. And then, of course, you've got to match that, going through initial teacher education, as to where teaching Welsh language skills will sit within that. So, to me, none of that is clear within the Bill, and I think, as it stands at the minute, it wouldn't give me reassurance as a teacher in a classroom. So, I think there's a lot of work to do. As it stands at the moment, there's a lot of work to develop that reassurance for teachers.

Thank you.

I would agree to a great extent with Urtha's comments there. But, if properly or sensibly funded, and if the support is in place, then the institute will be an effective way of developing the workforce, as things stand. But I've already noted a concern about initial teacher training. I do think that we need to review initial teacher training more generally. It is not right that there are higher education institutions in Wales that can train for England and say that that is fit for Wales; the Curriculum for Wales has moved things forward and transformed the situation to a great extent. But you also have a situation where there isn't adequate planning happening in terms of initial training, and there's no strategic thought given to that large geographical gap in Wales, and certainly in relation to the Welsh language, which isn't served by those providing initial teacher training at the moment, as Aberystwyth can't provide that any longer. And the anecdotal evidence that we've received seems to suggest that those people who would have taken teacher training courses in Aberystwyth have decided not to take those courses in Carmarthen or Bangor and have chosen different routes. So, there's a concern there. There's also a concern in terms of the expectations of training, and I think there's a job of work for the Education Workforce Council in that regard.

Thank you.

I would just add to that, as you touched on it, that there's already a wealth of pedagogical experience in the workforce, and it's critical to use that for the success of this Bill, but, actually, it's clear that teachers are going to need increased amounts of planning, preparation and assessment time to support children and young people in their learning if it's going to be successful and we're going to meet those targets, even though the run-in time is long. So, I would just add that.

Okay. And the next question. We've heard several times this morning already about the additional workload, potentially, that the implementation of this Bill would place on teachers. I just want to understand whether this is a different workload as opposed to the workloads associated with any other education strategies, or is this unique and more challenging, in terms of the workload?

In general terms, workload is workload, whatever strategy is introduced. From our perspective, of course, this is a workload we're already involved with, and we're content to undertake because of the importance of the issue for us as a union and for our members. I understand that other unions will have a slightly different view in this regard. But I do think that there's a question for the Government here: how much support do they want to secure for their policy, their legislation, or will we reach a situation where a question arises in terms of lack of funding for schools as things stand and the increasing workload that that creates? What we need, and the Government has started to address this, is to address teacher workload in particular. But, as a union, we will push to ensure that there are means of delivering that. But, a desire to provide funding, of course, is crucial in this regard.

Diolch.

I think I'd just say workload is workload, but I think, for this Bill in particular, for teachers expanding or learning new Welsh language skills, that’s a different bit of their brain they’re going to engage, so it will be slower and longer preparation for them, and through the years, after five years, it might be something that’s done really quickly. I also am aware that there are organisations that have been set up to help prepare Welsh language materials, but I think, initially for many teachers, even for teachers who are fluent in Welsh, if they’re delivering through Welsh for the first time, the fact that you’re using those different language skills is going to slow you down. Hopefully, that will decrease, but I think it’s a factor that’s going to increase the workload initially.

The only thing I would add to that is the workload impact assessment tool that’s being developed by the Welsh Government is not finished yet. There was a guarantee that that would be used for any new introduction of a Bill or policy, so we'd just repeat our request that that is done. I would agree that workload is workload, but actually, again, if you’re from a totally different starting point, then it’s obviously going to be different in your setting. So, I think one of the things that we would say is, based on experience of the huge changes with the ALN Act and the Curriculum for Wales, what gets taken away? Yes, workload is workload, but when something new is added, what is taken away to support that? I think that’s the issue, really, for us.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. We now have questions from Gareth Davies, please.

Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, everybody. I want to focus on Part 4 of the Bill, if I may. The Welsh Government wants to establish a clear line of accountability, in their words, at a national, local and school level for the planning of Welsh language education. Do you agree with what the Welsh Government wants to achieve, and to what extent do you believe that the Bill does this and covers those matters nationally, locally and at a granular level in schools?

To keep it brief, I do agree that you do need that clear line of accountability in the Bill. The problem we have is that there is a lack of detail and a lack of clarity in terms of how this will be delivered. But, to keep it very brief, I would say that we need to have these expectations in place and that there should be a clear line and that the Minister needs to set specific and appropriate targets in discussing these issues.

The logic within the Bill requires monitoring, otherwise how are you going to assess success? So, it is within the Bill. I think one of the things around workload that teachers are always raising is that they’re just always asked for so much information. They have to record so much information, it has to be collated and shared, and this would be yet another layer of that. So, any monitoring—and, as I say, the logic within the Bill does require it—would have to be carefully looked at as to what we have now that it could fit into, how it could be done most easily for the teachers involved with it. So, it would need careful consideration as to how it would jig-saw into what’s already happening without creating more and enormous barriers. Just before we go as well, we're talking a lot about teachers, but, actually, this affects all the staff in the school. There will be, obviously, teaching assistants, and all of the things we've talked about in relation to support will be necessary for those, and you’re looking at people that look after the school building, people that prepare the food, et cetera, et cetera. So, all of those issues need to be, for your question—.

Yes. Any more comments?

I think that there are clear lines of accountability already, we wouldn't expect them not to exist, but I think it goes back to doing it with the profession, as opposed to to them. So, ask the people on the ground what the impact's going to be, what support they need, how they envisage it developing in their setting, and I think that's the most important thing—to have those people involved right from the beginning. Yes, that's what I would add.

If I may come back very briefly in terms of accountability, there isn't enough in the Bill on that, and we have to ask a question in terms of the role of Estyn, and the consultation on that.

Yes, I think that's important. Just finally, if I may, Chair, when we took evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language, he told me—or told us, as a committee, I should say—that local authorities had asked for the name and the concept of the WESPs to be retained. And I've asked the same question in previous panels, which you may have seen publicly, to try and understand what the difference is between the initial plan in the White Paper for the Welsh in education strategic plans, and the difference between the WESPs. Did the strategic plans try to achieve something different to the WESPs, and what middle ground would there be, if that was the case, between the two of them? Or is just a terminology issue?

Can I clarify: are you asking were the WESPs written strategically? Is that what you're asking?

So, obviously, as we know, the WESPs are something that's established, but, in the original White Paper published by the Welsh Government, they were advertised as WEIPs—Welsh in education strategic plans. I'm just trying to establish whether the difference in terminology meant something different in what it tried to achieve, rather than the established WESPs, and, if it did, then is there something that it initially tried to achieve, but then it falls back to the—perhaps status quo isn't the right word, but back to the default, if you like?

I understand. So, a strategic plan can sit in a cupboard and not really work, and, I think, anecdotally, that's what I've heard from members that I've spoken with. I think the WEIP, if that's right, is more specific, and it makes a reference to implementation, but that doesn't actually make a difference to what might happen. Just because it's got a different name, it doesn't guarantee it is going to be implemented. So, you're still looking at, actually, what's going to happen on the ground, how would it work, how will the local authorities link with the schools and the governors and the rest of it.

And that's ultimately the question. Are we perhaps just overthinking it, and it's just a change in terminology, or is it something more meaningful than just a terminology issue? That's all we're trying to establish, really.

I think the title talks about implementation, which is key, and, obviously, the Bill talks about accountability and monitoring, which does spell bigger and clearer responsibilities, but none of that will work without the resources. I think we'll always keep coming back to the resources. Huge ambitions, which we do support, but to ensure that the teachers, the parents and the children are involved, you need a lot of resources.

It's semantics, to all intents and purposes, as you say, but, as there is a Bill before us, it is possible that we do need a change of name in order to ensure that there is a change of attitude and accept that we need to make progress.

Any additional—?

Nothing to add.

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

Okay, thank you. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate you joining us. There will a transcript sent for checking in due course, but thank you, again, this morning for your time.

Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

We will now take a five-minute break, to bring in the next witnesses.

Welcome back. We'll move on to agenda item 4 now. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement they've had in the development of the Bill?

Bore da. Jonathan Cooper ydw i, un o'r cyfarwyddwyr cynorthwyol yn Estyn gyda chyfrifoldeb am y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Dwi wedi cael rhyw fath o gyswllt gyda'r Bil wrth, yn amlwg, yn cydlynu ein hymateb i'r Papur Gwyn, a hefyd wrth drafod gyda swyddogion yn achlysurol fel ei fod e'n mynd trwy'r system. Felly, rydyn ni wedi bod mewn cyswllt â swyddogion yn ogystal â darparu ymateb i'r Papur Gwyn.

Helo, bore da i chi i gyd. Meredid Wyn Williams ydw i. Dwi'n gyfarwyddwr cynorthwyol yn Estyn gyda chyfrifoldeb am y gwasanaethau canolog ac, yn bennaf, o ran arolygu'r sector Gymraeg i oedolion. Fel Jonathan, dwi wedi cyfrannu at ein hymateb ni fel sefydliad i'r Papur Gwyn ac i rhoi tystiolaeth i chi heddiw, ac, yn amlwg, yn cael trafodaethau o bryd i'w gilydd gyda swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru ar amryw o faterion.

Thank you. Members have a series of questions to ask you this morning, and I'll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and the extent to which it will support the work and progress required to achieve the ‘Cymraeg 2050’ target of a million Welsh speakers?

I think, first of all, it is important to say that we welcome the Bill a great deal. We think it's important in supporting the objectives and the vision of ‘Cymraeg 2050’. We support entirely the general principles of the Bill, and we also support the fact that the Bill reflects the ambition and the Government's target of achieving a million Welsh speakers by 2050. And clearly, at heart, this depends on increasing the numbers leaving the education system who are confident Welsh speakers.

I think it's important for us to note that developing the ability of pupils to communicate through the medium of Welsh, particularly in English-medium schools, has been a cause of concern for us over a long period of time. In 2012-13, Ann Keane, the chief inspector at the time, noted that inspectors had made a recommendation to improve the Welsh proficiency of pupils in a quarter of English-medium schools, and then, 10 years later, in the annual report last year, we also noted that the picture hasn't changed a great deal since then. There was still 30 per cent of English-medium schools and 18 per cent of Welsh-medium schools inspected, and a quarter of the secondary schools inspected, where there was a recommendation with regard to the Welsh language. So, we're aware that there are challenges in the system, and it's fair to say that we've seen effective and good practice in the system across Wales, but it isn't consistent across Wales. And I think what we think is that this Bill is going to be very powerful in moving the agenda forward now.

We believe that the education system has an important role, bearing in mind the challenges in the system, as well as the ambition for every pupil to be a confident Welsh speaker throughout the statutory education system. So, we believe that the introduction of this Bill is a positive step towards achieving this, and provides status for the Welsh language too.

I'd like to echo that by saying that, in reality, this is a systemic challenge. Although we have seen some progress in some aspects—more and more Welsh is spoken in schools, there's an enthusiasm for the language, certainly—what we haven't seen to date is that meaningful planning to develop independent Welsh speakers. So, the second language system as it currently exists doesn't help pupils to move along the language continuum so that they do become independent Welsh speakers who can use the language on a day-to-day basis.

Thank you. We now have some questions from Cefin Campbell.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a bore da. Diolch yn fawr i chi am y dystiolaeth rŷch chi wedi'i chyflwyno i ni fel pwyllgor. Dwi eisiau mynd ar ôl un mater rŷch chi wedi'i grybwyll yn barod, ac yn eich tystiolaeth rŷch chi'n nodi bod gyda chi bryderon am ysgolion dwy iaith, nad ydyn nhw, efallai, yn mynd i ddarparu digon o Gymraeg i sicrhau bod plant yn dod yn siaradwyr rhugl, annibynnol. Byddwn i eisiau gofyn yr un cwestiwn, yn y cyd-destun rŷch chi wedi cyflwyno yn barod, ynglŷn â methiannau'r system ail iaith dros y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Rŷch chi fel Estyn wedi nodi hynny, fel rŷch chi wedi crybwyll yn barod. O ran gosod targed 10 y cant ar gyfer ysgolion pennaf cyfrwng Saesneg, ydych chi'n credu bod hwnna hefyd yn ddigonol fel targed i sicrhau rhuglder a hyder yn y defnydd o'r Gymraeg?

Rydyn ni'n credu bod isafswm o 10 y cant yn rhesymol. Rwy'n credu bod isafswm o'r amser sy'n cael ei dreulio i ddatblygu'r Gymraeg yn bwysig, ond, i ni, pan ydym ni'n arolygu, beth sy'n bwysicach yw ein bod ni'n edrych ar ansawdd y ddarpariaeth, ansawdd yr addysgeg, a wedyn yr effaith mae hwnna'n ei chael ar safonau disgyblion. Dwi'n credu bod yna arfer da allan yna, a dŷn ni wedi gweld tipyn o astudiaethau achos yn dod trwyddo yn ddiweddar, er enghraifft, lle mae ysgolion efallai lle mae pethau yn gweithio'n dda, mae yna weledigaeth gan arweinwyr—ac rwy'n sôn nawr am ysgolion Saesneg a hefyd dwyieithog—mae yna weledigaeth glir gan arweinwyr ynglŷn â beth maen nhw eisiau ei gyflawni, mae yna'n bendant frwdfrydedd tuag at yr iaith, ac rwy'n credu bod hynny yn hollbwysig, ac mae ffocws ar ddatblygu siaradwyr. Ers tipyn o flynyddoedd nawr, dŷn ni wedi rhoi'r ffocws ar edrych ar ba mor dda mae disgyblion yn gallu cyfathrebu drwy'r iaith. So, mae mwy o ffocws ar sgiliau siarad a gwrando mewn ysgolion Saesneg a dwyieithog, efallai, yn hytrach na darllen ac ysgrifennu, achos rydym ni'n credu yn y bôn fe ddown nhw ar ôl y siarad, ac mae hynny mor bwysig.

So, lle mae pocedi yn gweithio—. Fel dywedodd Mererid, mae yna bethau da yn gweithio ac yn effeithiol, lle mae gweledigaeth, mae cynllunio bwriadus ar gyfer datblygu'r Gymraeg, a hefyd mae buddsoddiad mewn datblygiad proffesiynol ar gyfer athrawon a staff yn yr ysgolion. Hefyd, fel dywedais i, maen nhw'n bendant yn datblygu'r brwdfrydedd. Wedyn, yn amlwg, ble dyw e ddim yn gweithio cystal, y gwrthwyneb, siŵr o fod, yw beth sy'n digwydd, lle dyw'r weledigaeth yna ddim gyda nhw a dyw e ddim i'w gweld efallai fel un o'r blaenoriaethau.

Felly, i ateb y cwestiwn, rwy'n credu bod y 10 y cant yn bwysig. Mae e'n rhoi ffocws i bobl ynglŷn â beth ddylen nhw ei gyflawni, ond hefyd mae fe'n bwysig, wrth wneud hynny, fod yna ddatblygiad a pharhad yn y medrau, a'i fod e'n fwy i'w wneud gydag ansawdd yr addysgu a'r ddarpariaeth i gael y safonau, felly, fel dydyn ni ddim wedyn yn gweld bod 10 y cant yn cael ei dreulio yn gwneud yr un patrymau iaith, er enghraifft, a'r un peth drosodd a throsodd, ond ei fod e'n adeiladu ar fedrau disgyblion. Efallai lle dŷn ni ddim yn gweld hwnna yw lle dyw hwnna ddim yn llwyddiannus ar hyn o bryd.

Yes, and the 10 per cent, of course—. Ten per cent of every school year for every pupil builds into a significant sum by the end of the statutory school period. And in creating that continuum where there is an opportunity to have meaningful development within that, there is the possibility of creating independent Welsh speakers. At the moment, the system is too piecemeal to be able to achieve that. That's not to say that there aren't pockets of good practice—we do have to remember those too—but, as a whole system, we haven't succeeded yet in ensuring that we do create that continuity from one educational period to the next.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. We now have questions from Vaughan Gething, please.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Thank you. I want to move into the questions that you may have seen I've asked other witnesses before about the use of the common European framework of reference for languages, or CEFR. There's, I guess, a couple of different parts to this. There's, first, whether you think it's an appropriate measuring tool to use, and then whether you think it can be applied effectively in the context proposed in the Bill, and then the knock-on potential impact in the curriculum. And I'm sure you'll have seen that other witnesses had views on that. So, I'm interested in what the inspectorate's view is on both those perspectives.

Well, we certainly welcome this concept of having one linguistic continuum across the education system. We like and support the idea of emulating a framework that's been adopted in other nations. Of course, we are already familiar with using the CEFR in Welsh for adults, and a precise curriculum has been mapped out against the CEFR in that sector, and that has been successful in ensuring that we do create Welsh speakers who can work independently, by themselves, and can offer something in their use of the language.

We think it's important that we consider the CEFR in the context of other curricular areas for schools. We're thinking particularly that we will need to create a close link with the literacy frameworks within the broader curriculum. But I do think that we need to consider how we map the CEFR, or transfer the CEFR, so that it works in different contexts—so, we need to think about what needs to be done in terms of interpreting the CEFR in the school context. And I know that there are some schools, a small number of secondary schools, that have relatively recently been trialling working with the National Centre for Learning Welsh to consider how the CEFR could be mapped within the secondary context. I think there have been a handful of pilots with schools, in years 8 and 9, to see how the National Centre for Learning Welsh can evolve the curriculum that they have, based on the CEFR, and apply it in the school context.

So, CEFR is designed for additional languages. And there is a question about whether it's an appropriate tool for people who come from Welsh-speaking homes or a wider education environment, as opposed to learning it as an additional language. I just want to check if you have a particular view, or whether you'd stick to the view that, actually, it's appropriate as a whole-language continuum and it makes sense in the Welsh-medium setting, as well as in an English-medium setting, where Welsh would be, for most people, an additional language.

The CEFR is a framework, essentially, setting out points of progress. So, we can see that it is totally appropriate for any linguistic continuum. Of course, there will be some who won't yet be on the continuum—they will be new to the language and so on. And we've seen, in the context of Welsh for adults, for example, that there is provision before that lowest level of the CEFR in welcoming people to the language. So, it works in that context. But also, we know that there are pupils in Welsh-medium schools at the moment who come from non-Welsh-speaking homes, where Welsh isn't their first language, and of course they make progress during their educational journey within a school. So, it is appropriate, I think, for that range of learners that we have. I hope that that answers your question.

It's interesting, because the point around someone who would be described as not having Welsh language skills, and you made the point around the pre-acquisition stage, about whether in a school setting—. Because there will be some pupils who will, for understandable reasons, reach the end of their time and not have acquired Welsh language skills at all, and not reached the basic speaker threshold. It sounds like you're saying that, actually, that's fine, and the way you can apply CEFR doesn't create a problem. So, I just want to check that.

And then, the issue we keep on coming to and wanting to try to understand is about whether there is a threshold where you're thinking Welsh speakers should be. We've heard different evidence from different people about where that should be, and whether actually CEFR can help us—whether it should be a basic user, independent or proficient. But have you got a view on where you'd say a Welsh speaker is, without trying to draw you into issues about self-assessment or self-identification, where people consider themselves to be Welsh speakers, and about whether other people would?

That's an interesting question. As I've said already, I don't think that there would be a problem, there's always a level pre that CEFR level in welcoming people to the language. In terms of a threshold, when does one become a Welsh speaker—now, that is an extremely interesting question. In the Welsh for adults sector, I'm sure I would say that learners who have achieved level B2 are truly Welsh speakers. But I think that misses a broader point, if truth be told. It's important that we are all comfortable using whatever language skills we have, and consider ourselves speakers in that context. So, a language isn't a label, at the end of the day, it is a means of communication. And if the education system can ensure that we develop young people, develop learners to be able to use the Welsh language proactively in their day-to-day lives, then it will have been successful.

Okay. Thank you. There's—

Sorry. I was just going to say, in terms of the CEFR, it's a framework, but we also welcome the linguistic continuum, because I do think—. We have been calling for this for a long time, through our reports, for example, on immersion and some of the thematic reports that we've published. It is important that there is a linguistic continuum, and we are happy to be part of the work of supporting that. Because, as Mererid said, the language is for everyone and it's important, then, that we have something where we can move to the next steps in supporting people. But we need to celebrate the fact that people can use the Welsh that they have in whatever context, and to ensure that people are enthusiastic to use whatever Welsh they have. I think that's vitally important.

I'll stop there, Chair, because I know you have other questions to get through.

Thank you. We'll now turn to Tom Giffard, please.

Thank you very much. In your written evidence, you mention that you felt as though the language categories that were being suggested were complicated or misleading. Can you speak a bit more to that, particularly for the implications that that would have for Welsh-medium schools currently?

I think that there is a desire to increase the standards in primarily English language, partly Welsh schools. It's an integral step. So, we welcome the fact that we are simplifying these categories, because for a long period of time, there has been confusion with regard to the categorisation of schools. Clearly, the Bill focuses on increasing the number of Welsh speakers, and we welcome that too. What we want to make sure, clearly—either in the context of changing the wording or something aligned with that—that parents are clear about what these categories mean for their children. So, for example, a Welsh-medium school—what does this mean for them, and that it's different, perhaps, to an English language school with significant use of the Welsh language.

So, I just think we need more detail behind what those categories mean, so that parents understand what they mean for them and their children in choosing a particular school. So, that's what we mean. We're very supportive of the proposal to simplify the categories, but we also want to ensure that it does mean that we can increase the number of Welsh-medium schools, if you like, in the context of the Bill itself, and to develop the number of Welsh-medium schools. So, just in terms of clarity, perhaps, that's what we mean in saying what we did in our response.

Diolch. In the context of the primarily English, partly Welsh schools, you'll know, obviously, that the Bill requires 10 per cent of the time teaching Welsh language education. I just wonder, from the context of what you see in school inspections and those kinds of schools, materially and practically, how much more, or perhaps even less, is that compared to what those sorts of schools are already teaching?

As I said earlier, I think there is a great deal of variation at the moment in terms of what we see. There are schools that are doing particularly well in developing the language, and they understand the pedagogy. As I said, the vision is there with schools in terms of where they want their pupils to reach, and I think that they invest time in the professional development of their staff. But on the other hand, we're seeing that, perhaps, things are moving more slowly in other places, and perhaps you could argue that although 10 per cent of the time is spent on the Welsh language, we don't see that it increases the use of the Welsh language among the children when they leave. So, they follow the same patterns time and time again, and they don't develop the confidence and ability to become Welsh speakers. So, it is difficult to answer the question in terms of the percentage of time.

But what is important every time, and what we're seeing in terms of the curriculum as a whole, is that it's the quality of teaching that is important, it's the quality of provision that's important, and that has the impact. Where that is effective, it does have an impact on how much progress children make in their skills.

And I do think, in terms of what we said with regard to the continuum and so on, there is a need for a great deal of investment in professional development for staff. And that current staff that we have too. We have to remember that staff are very eager to participate in the system, but they need that professional development, a comprehensive programme, I would say, to align with any continuum, to ensure that they're confident in the use of the language itself, but they're also confident in presenting that to their pupils. That also aligns, not just with the development of skills, but developing their understanding of the best pedagogy in terms of the teaching of language.

Thank you. And one final question on a fairly similar theme. Obviously, the Bill would require all schools to have a Welsh language education delivery plan. Again, how different is that to what schools currently have, and how much change does that mean in practice for schools?

I think what it does is to complete this circle, in terms of what happens nationally, what happens with local authorities and their WESPs, and the schools too. And I think, if we want to see schools driving the process of improving and increasing Welsh language provision, then this is important. We should also emphasise that it shouldn't be burdensome, it shouldn't be additional work—it should be a plan that's fit for purpose that will improve provision, improve teaching, and will ultimately create Welsh speakers. And it's important too, as we introduce these, that schools do monitor and evaluate the impact of what’s happening as things do progress.

So, I think it is important, through this Bill, that these plans are in place, because it does ensure that everyone has the same ambition and that we are all working to deliver the ambitions of the Bill and that we set clear and ambitious targets, and that schools do that in order to improve their provision, to ensure that those pupils do become Welsh speakers.

Thank you. Back to you, Chair.

Thank you, Tom. We now have some questions from Cefin Campbell, please.

Thank you very much. Yes, there have been concerns expressed by the unions during this morning's sessions regarding the lack of a bilingual workforce, and that that can prevent the development in terms of achieving the objectives of the Bill. Do you feel that the Bill should place greater emphasis on developing the workforce and perhaps even set targets for recruiting a specific number of teachers, assistants who are bilingual to deliver upon these objectives?

Certainly, there needs to be investment in the education workforce in order to deliver the aims of the Bill. That doesn't necessarily mean that the only way to do that is through initial teacher training. I think that there are very good programmes already in existence, such as the sabbatical programme, which can support current staff members within education providers to upskill. So, clearly, there needs to be investment in the workforce in order to deliver this vision.

One of the things that is positive in terms of the plans set out in Bill is this concept of a continuum, and that continuum doesn't come to an end during statutory education. It is one continuum, whatever your age is when you start your learning experience. So, there's a very real opportunity, as I've mentioned already, in terms of systemic change in order to ensure that that professional development in terms of language acquisition can be carried over then in different contexts.

We do appreciate the work that’s been done recently on the Welsh in education workforce plan, but we also believe that there is scope now to build on those developments now that the Bill is being introduced, for example by creating a clear strategy for developing the professional workforce. There is work that's already been done, and that plan is in place. And I think, in moving, hopefully, towards the introduction of the Bill, we will strengthen and build on the work that has already been initiated recently.

Thank you. In the current Bill, there is provision to enable primarily English-medium schools to request two periods of exemption in terms of delivering 10 per cent Welsh language education, and there is some ambiguity in terms of what is meant by Welsh language education—whether it’s the subject itself that’s in question, or whether it’s the medium of the education. But that’s another issue. Do you believe that that is reasonable, in your view as an inspectorate, that there are two periods of exemption possible for schools to request?

I can understand why this has been proposed. There will always be some cases where an exemption may need to be considered. What I’d be concerned about is that the exemption may become the norm. And perhaps there needs to be clearer guidance as to what those categories are in terms of exemptions. You need clarity within the system in that regard.

In reality, I would expect very few exemptions, because these principles of ensuring that you do have staff that can present the curriculum in every school already exist. So, perhaps we need a little more clarity as to what those exemptions might be. But I wouldn’t want to see those exemptions becoming 10 years long without real progress being made.

I agree with Mererid. I think, if there is any exemption, then there will need to be strong evidence provided in terms of why the exemption is granted, and that it’s a temporary exemption. We don’t want to be in a situation, as Mererid said, where 10 years have passed, and nothing’s been done to change the situation. And that’s where the planning comes in too, so that, if there is an exemption, there’s still an expectation that the plans are in place to ensure that they can move along the continuum, and that these plans are in place to resolve any situations that arise.

But the hope is that, with this moving forward now, people know what the expectations are, and people can start working towards those expectations now, even. And I think that’s important, that people do that work now, so that we don’t have to use any exemptions. I think we just need more clarity in terms of why one might request an exemption, and why that would be agreed.

Thank you very much. And the final question. The WESPs will set targets for different categories of schools in every county. What if schools fail to achieve those targets, or if local authorities didn’t deliver against their targets for the county-based plans? Is there a role for Estyn to play here, in terms of monitoring that, and inspecting it, and even having sanctions or mechanisms in place in order to highlight the fact that these targets have been missed?

I think that we already have those powers, to be honest, to do this work. We do consider the WESPs as part of our inspection work in terms of local authorities. And also, now, because we’ve started the immersion inspections with the local authorities, we do consider that aspect of the WESPs as part of our inspections. And we were also part of the work of looking at the quality of the WESPs, and we’ve made suggestions in terms of strengthening them, based on our feedback. I think this is part of our powers already.

If the Welsh Government ask us to do more work, in greater depth, perhaps, or more often, then we will need to consider whether we have sufficient resources to do this work without receiving additional resources to help us to undertake that task. But I think that the powers that we already have are there, and we’re doing that work in terms of looking at WESPs in local authorities. And even in our contact visits with local authorities—which happen on a regular basis—they’re part of the conversations that we have in terms of the progress that is made on the WESPs. And part of the work that we’ve already done has contributed to all of this work.

So, I think we have the powers, but if there is anything within the powers that the Government believes we should be doing, then again we'll have to consider the resources that we have to do that.

It may be worth emphasising that we are not a regulatory body, and we wouldn't want regulatory powers through this Bill, but there are other ways in which we can provide challenge in the system. Jonathan has mentioned the work with local authorities, and we have new inspection arrangements. The current cycle was just started last month, where we will have greater opportunity to engage with schools through our interim visits. And, of course, through our thematic work, there's also an opportunity there.

In terms of our powers, of course, we can place a school or a provider in a statutory category, but perhaps it's important that we make it clear at this point that, as things currently stand, we don't anticipate that a school not meeting the 10 per cent in and of itself would be a reason for placing that school in a statutory category. We would expect that there would be other areas that would need to be addressed before we reach that point. These are early days, of course, but that's our thinking at the moment as an organisation.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. We now have questions from Gareth Davies, please.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Good afternoon and thanks for joining us today. I want to focus on Part 4 of the Bill, if I may, today. I’ll just start by asking this. The Welsh Government wants to establish a clear line of accountability at a national, local and school level for the planning of Welsh language education. Do you agree with what the Welsh Government wants to achieve, and to what extent do you believe the Bill does this?

We agree with what the Welsh Government wants to achieve here. It ensures clarity in terms of the national expectations, local expectations and school-level expectations in terms of Welsh in education planning. It's fair to say that the strategy and the national framework will guide the decisions that the local authorities make when they plan immersion provision. It sets a responsibility on schools to ensure that they move their pupils along the language continuum, for example, with the minimum time that the Welsh language is taught. But, regardless of what happens, it is important that it's evaluated on a regular basis and to ensure that it doesn't move too slowly. So, we need to maintain momentum and evaluate anything that is done very often to ensure that we do achieve the targets, and, if we don't, where perhaps any changes need to be made or any further work done to support that.

Mererid, any additional comments to that?

I would just echo what Jonathan has said. I think that represents our views as an organisation.

Thanks very much. What would Estyn’s role be in that, then, in terms of the accountability at a national, local and school level? Where would Estyn play a role within that system?

Our inspections of providers will continue. Clearly, within schools and a number of sectors, we have established a new system of inspection, which means that we visit providers more often. So, the inspections will continue and we will continue to look at the quality of what's happening in schools in terms of their provision and the progress made by pupils in terms of language skills. We have started, as I mentioned, to inspect the arrangements of local authorities in terms of their immersion provision and how they're developing that within local authorities. There was a recent successful pilot, and we're starting that from September onwards, and we'll continue with our thematic work, too, where we will focus on many aspects of the Welsh language. So, everything that we are currently doing will continue, and there are means, if requested by the Welsh Government, to do more thematic work to support anything that may be happening as a result of the introduction of the Bill.

Would you be seeking something additional in the Bill to achieve that, then, as a governing body over schools as something from the Welsh Government to give you the powers to assess the progress of Welsh language provision in those schools, or is it satisfactory within the Bill itself at the moment?

I think there is sufficient scope and flexibility within the powers that we have to undertake our inspection work in the context of this Bill. Clearly, if we need to do anything in addition, we would need to consider what the financial implications would be for us. But in terms of the powers themselves, I think there is sufficient flexibility already in the legislation.

Diolch. Are there any other areas of services for children and young people that you believe should be added to the scope of the national framework for Welsh language and education and local authorities—the WESPs, basically—and if so, which services would they be?

We do believe that youth work supported by local authorities—either by themselves or perhaps through contracts with other bodies—should be part of the WESPs, because the youth work sector provides an important role, both socially and educationally. So, perhaps we should consider the ability of that sector to extend the use of the Welsh language. And also, apart from the duty to engage with Medr in the framework, perhaps there isn’t sufficient clarity at the moment in terms of how the framework and the other duties within the Bill actually align with Medr’s responsibilities in terms of the Welsh language.

I've asked previous panellists over two sessions now about the difference between the terminology in the existing WESPs and the Welsh education implementation plans—the WEIPs—that were initially proposed in the White Paper. Is there any difference in that regard in your view, and if so, what would that be? Is it just a simple terminology matter, or does it run a bit further than that in your view in terms of what the original plan was to achieve, or if it doesn't, does that then fall back on the status quo in terms of the WESPs?

I don't believe that what we call the plans makes a huge difference in terms of what is done. I think the important thing is that the authorities plan their Welsh in education provision, that they set targets and that they are challenging to move the agenda forward in their authority area, and that they then ensure that they review their provision and see where they are on the continuum. I don't think that the title in and of itself makes a huge difference. I think it makes sense to keep the WESP term, because these systems are in place and they're making a positive contribution towards the provision of Welsh language education in local authorities. I think we can see that in terms of how much immersion provision is provided across local authorities in Wales. So, I think there is a move, with the plans that we have in place already, to move this agenda forward here. So, I don't see any difference between what the intention of the term was in the White Paper and what is being mentioned now in the Bill.

I think that's been the consensus in that regard. I was just checking with you, as a body, as to whether you had any different thoughts on that. But over the sessions that we've had, I think that's certainly a consensus that we've been able to gauge as a committee—that it's more of a terminology aspect than anything deeper than that. But we just wanted, obviously, to explore that matter.

The White Paper included a proposal for Estyn to be asked to carry out a rapid review of a local authority's WESP and make recommendations. The Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language told us that this is not included in the Bill, as the Welsh Government already has the power to remit Estyn to do such work. Are you satisfied that there is already provision in legislation or other means for Estyn to undertake such reviews? I know that you touched on that in a previous response to my question, but just to expand that out in terms of the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language's comments.

Yes, I think we'd agree with those. We believe that we currently have the powers to undertake this work. For example, as I said, through our work inspecting local authorities, we look at the WESPs there. We can do it from the perspective of looking at immersion and other aspects of our work, so we think that these powers are sufficient as they currently stand.

Again, as was said, there is scope for them to request for us to do more work if that's what they want. But, as Mererid said, we would then have to consider the financial implications of that if we're expected to do more work in addition to what we're currently doing. But, certainly, as to what we do already, I think our powers do allow us to evaluate the WESPs and progress against them.

Yes, and I think, in addition to legislation, which clearly drives our work, the annual letter from the Minister, which provides a direction for our work, is also an opportunity to focus on aspects of this.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We really appreciate you joining us. You will be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you.

We'll now move on to item 5, which is papers to note. Full details of papers are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. Are Members content to note the papers together? Yes.

Moving on to item 6, I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Yes. We will now proceed in private.