Plenary

Questions to the Counsel General are next, and the first question is from Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you for your question. We continue to support the devolution of policing and justice to Wales, as recommended by the numerous independent commissions over the years, including most recently by the constitutional commission.

Thank you for that response. Well, as the Counsel General has mentioned, the devolution of policing and justice was a commitment by the Labour Party, and it was in the manifesto of the Labour Party back in 2021. The Counsel General, the former First Minister and others have spoken very powerfully and robustly in favour of devolving policing and justice several times, but according to the shadow Welsh Secretary, Jo Stevens, the devolution of policing and justice isn't one of the priorities. Indeed, she mentioned it as being 'fiddling on the margins'. Does the Counsel General therefore believe that what they're trying to do as a Government is a waste of time, or does he truly believe that the devolution of policing and justice is something that will be seen here in Wales?

Well, thank you for the question. Pursuing the case for the devolution of justice as a whole is still a priority of this Government, as are the recommendations that have been accepted from the Independent Commission on the Constitutional Future of Wales, as is the approach that is recommended, which is a transitional approach over a number of years in order to achieve these. And of course, one of the priorities, and one of the ones I am particularly focused on is in respect of the devolution of youth justice and probation. Policing, I believe, does follow on from that, and I think that the devolution of policing is, in due course, an inevitability.

I heard, of course, the comments that have been made. These comments are often made during the course of general elections, and they're made sometimes without the benefit that I think we all now have of, for example, the review that was led by Carl Foulkes, the former chief constable of north Wales. What I'm very keen on is the opportunity that we now have that there will be engagement in a whole range of areas that is only possible with a change of Government, with an incoming Labour Government. And I am fairly certain that, once the evidential base that we have amassed over the years, once the research that we've carried out becomes more generally known, more commonly understood and so on, as we discuss the devolution of youth justice and probation, I believe the door will be opened in respect of the devolution of policing.

Can I say that policing is, perhaps, on that area of priority after youth justice and probation mainly because we have achieved so much? My colleague the former Minister for Social Justice and I did a lot of work in terms of the development of the policing partnership. In many ways, a lot of policing already operates as though it is, in fact, devolved. And, of course, the work with the police and crime commissioners has been significant, and they were all supportive of this. So, this is an ongoing debate, it's a debate I believe will be pushing in the right direction, and I'm confident that, over time, policing, again, will be naturally seen to be part of that natural devolution.

Thank you for your question. The court backlogs are considered at Inter-ministerial Group for Justice meetings. The recent National Audit Office report shows the increasing extent of Crown Court backlogs but does not contain regional data or insights. I understand that Wales performs better than average, yet the average backlog of court cases is serious and unacceptable.

Thank you for the response, Counsel General. Over the last five years, we have seen a staggering 346 per cent increase in the number of rape cases held up in the Crown Court's backlog, which is totally unacceptable, as delays and lack of support lead to 42 per cent of victims withdrawing from cases. I was pleased, therefore, to see UK Labour has committed to establishing 80 new rape courts across England and Wales. These courts will be used to fast-track cases as part of plans to tackle violence against women and girls. Counsel General, do you agree with me that these changes are much needed and will be welcomed by victims across Wales?

Well, can I thank the Member for those comments because you make very valid points? Over the last 14 years, we have seen the delivery of justice really moving to a precipice. The closure of courts, the failure to maintain courts, the failure to invest in the justice system, the failure to invest in legal aid has brought, really, our justice system to a precipice. There are now 67,573 outstanding court cases in England and Wales. There's been a 78 per cent increase in Crown Court backlogs since 2019; 18,045 cases on 31 December 2023 had been outstanding in the Crown Court for one year or more; 1,436 trials had been cancelled on the hearing day in 2023 because all legal professionals required were not available; as you've said, there has been a 346 per cent increase in the number of adult rape cases in the Crown Court's outstanding case load between 31 December 2019 and 31 December 2023; and 16,005 people who are remanded in prison have been waiting for trial or sentencing, with 2023 recording the highest level for at least 50 years. Yes, I do welcome the imminent arrival of a new Labour government, and a government that is committed to delivering justice and repairing some of the damage that has been done to our justice system over the past 14 years.

Questions now from party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, your responsibilities as Counsel General include both legislative programme delivery and performance of other functions in the public interest. A statement of opinion calling on the Welsh Government to retain the legislative duty for council tax notices to be printed in local newspapers, tabled by Mike Hedges MS, has secured cross-party support. This recognises that the provision of information via written means is important for many people. What discussions have you therefore had with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office regarding the Stage 3 amendment to the Local Government Finance (Wales) Bill being tabled by Peter Fox MS on 9 July to retain this crucial duty, recognising, as the media sector tells us, that if this Bill is passed in its current form it could trigger a watering down of other vital statutory requirements for a whole range of public notices, as well as creating a postcode lottery with inconsistent levels of transparency across Wales—matters that would fall within your remit?

Well, can I thank the Member for the question? The issue of public notices is, of course, an important one. We do live in an age of modern technology and there are many ways in which notices are actually communicated, so it is perfectly proper and appropriate that reviews as to how information of such matters are made available and accessible to the public. It is not a matter on which I've been asked to advise; it is a matter that is properly addressed by the appropriate Cabinet Secretary that you've referred to.

Well, I'm concerned you've not been asked to advise particularly as to the impact that this could have on the digitally excluded, particularly older people and disabled people. But staying with the performance of other functions in the public interest and your wider responsibilities, I questioned you here last November over the research commissioned by the Welsh Government to prepare for the devolution of policing in Wales, following on from an earlier question, when I noted that the Thomas commission on justice in Wales report, on which you rely, makes only one reference to the key issue of cross-border criminality, and the only solution proposed is joint working across the four Welsh forces, in collaboration with other agencies, without any reference to the established joint working with neighbouring partners across the invisible crime-and-justice border with England. And when I visited the north-west regional organised crime unit, shared between north Wales and north-west England police forces, they told me that evidence given to the Thomas commission was largely ignored in its report. So, what update can you, therefore, provide now regarding the review you commissioned, and made brief reference to earlier, led by a former north Wales chief constable, where you told me that the key way forward is to wait until that evidence comes, to then consider it, evaluate it, and then we'll debate it in this Chamber?

Can I thank the Member for the important points that he's raised? They are important points. Can I say that since, of course, the Thomas commission—? Of course, the Thomas commission considered aspects of policing, and it considered a wide variety of areas. But the further work, of course, that was taken on is the work, the review, that was led Carl Foulkes, which made clear that there is no reason why, for example, close links could not be kept between Welsh and English forces after devolution. As you know, Carl Foulkes was the chief constable of North Wales Police, so he was very well aware of the various challenges. His review looked, for example, at the ways English forces worked with Police Scotland and with the Northern Irish equivalent—the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Can I say also that there have been considerable discussions that have taken place with the police and crime commissioners? Of course, there are a number of those. They have conducted their own research and their own work in this particular area, and produced their own reports, which, again, are very supportive of the devolution of policing. So, the information is there. The review led by Carl Foulkes is available to the Member. I hope the Member will take the opportunity to consider that report and to review it, and I'm sure these are matters where there will be further discussion in due course in this Chamber.

Thank you. Of course, it was senior officers, serving under Carl Foulkes, when I visited the regional organised crime unit, who raised those concerns with me.

Policing in Scotland and Northern Ireland are devolved matters there, but, for reasons of history, geography and population and, with crime patterns between England and Wales operating on a cross-border, east-west basis, the situation in Wales is entirely different. Unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland, Wales has a heavily populated cross-border area with England, with an estimated 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales alone operating on a cross-border, east-west basis, and almost none on an all-Wales basis. Why, therefore, is the Welsh Government devoting so much time and resource to devolution of policing and adult justice to Wales when it's cutting key budgets elsewhere, especially when the most senior Welsh Labour MP in Westminster, shadow Welsh secretary, Jo Stevens, has again joined the Conservatives in rejecting fresh calls for the Welsh Government to be given control of policing and adult criminal justice, and Labour’s manifesto for the UK general election does not include support for devolution of these?

Can I firstly say that I don't think the position with regard to Wales vis-à-vis England, vis-à-vis Northern Ireland and Scotland are entirely different? There are very many common areas. On the issue of cross-border operation, we have distinct police forces that operate with operational control within those particular police forces. They operate collectively across borders. There's no suggestion that the devolution of policing would mean that that would all stop and that nothing would happen. We have the devolution of policing in places like London and, of course, the devolution of powers relating to policing in places like Manchester. They also have quite significant borders, and so on.

I think the question, really, is whether with, for example, starting the process of the devolution of aspects of justice, policing and modern policing play a significant, integrated role with a broad range of devolved functions, and that the operation of policing will perform far better by devolution. I think that is the view that the police and crime commissioners—all four police and crime commissioners—have come to, and I think the broader opposition isn't there. In terms of priorities, as we move towards greater devolution, policing will have a certain place at a particular time. For me, at the moment, the most important areas in terms of work that is going on will be the devolution of youth justice and probation.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Diolch, Llywydd. Counsel General, you're on the record as being a strong supporter of the Hillsborough law that would place a statutory duty of candour on public authorities and public officials, and there is a commitment, of course, by an incoming Labour administration to enact that Hillsborough law. Hillsborough Law Now, who have led the campaign over 30 years, say this on their website:

'It's time for a law that will criminalise lying to the British public,'

and indeed, the draft law does that. It says:

'A public servant or official commits an offence if he or she intentionally or recklessly...misleads the general public or media'.

Do you support the creation of that offence, Counsel General, and would it apply to public servants here in Wales? Would an LCM be necessary in that case, and would you support it on that basis?

Well, firstly, in terms of Hillsborough, I very much support the issue of a duty of candour. The issue has been not so much with elected representatives, but it has been at the level of what information, at the early stages in terms of public servants and so on, that has arisen, as to, I suppose, appropriate information being made available and disclosed at a very early stage. So, the commitment by the next Labour Government to a Hillsborough law is something I very much recognise. I think it's important that we don't confuse the issue of criminalisation of lying with the duty of candour. You will know very well that my view is that I completely agree with you in terms of the fact that I think steps need to be taken in terms of honesty, integrity within public life and, indeed, within public service in elected representation. I think the question is: how do you actually achieve that in a way that actually works, is actually effective, does not have unforeseen consequences, and that does not undermine the constitutional integrity of this Senedd? So, I very much welcome the work that is under way and the commitment that has been given to legislate on the basis of recommendations in due course to be made by the standards committee in respect of the issue of recall, but I believe that the issue of dealing with deception as well is something that would be most effectively dealt with within that framework and within that legislation, which would avoid what I think might be very serious unforeseen or unintended consequences.

I think the Counsel General is having the debate that we will be having next week now, but I'll happily—

You started it.

Well, no, I was actually asking about the Hillsborough law. I actually was quoting directly from the Public Authority (Accountability) Bill that was passed on Second Reading in Westminster unopposed, supported by all parties, drafted by Andy Burnham. That is the Hillsborough law that the Labour Party has now committed to bringing into law, and it actually does apply in all nations of the United Kingdom, and it does create a new criminal offence for public officials in misleading the general public or media.

The next set of questions does take us into the territory that you invited me into. Why do you think, if you support that—? I presume that you do, Counsel General, that you support that element, because it's in the law. Why is the civil service code insufficient to deal with this issue, and why do we need a new criminal offence in regard to public officials, and how could we create circumstances where public officials are held to account, to a criminal standard, in cases of deception, whereas politicians, to whom they answer, are not?

Well, because, firstly, in terms of the Hillsborough law, which I do support—and, of course, we do wait to see the full drafting of that legislation and, indeed, of course, the full scrutiny of that particular legislation—that is a different thing in terms of the constitutional issue of parliamentary privilege, which I think is a fundamental cornerstone of the way our four Parliaments actually operate.

Now, the question for me is: what is the most effective way of delivering an objective? Is it through the introduction of a law that criminalises the issue of deception in the way in which the amendment that you proposed suggests, or is there a more effective way? I have to say, at this stage, I remain unconvinced that the proposal you put forward is actually workable, although it does not have very significant adverse potential impacts. And if that’s the case, is there a better way of achieving it? I think there is a much better and a much more effective way of achieving both the issue of recall, and in terms of dealing with the standards of conduct within the Chamber, whilst also preserving parliamentary privilege.

I’ve been avidly reading Labour Party manifestos over the last few days; it happens in election time, doesn’t it?

One of the other commitments that is actually very germane to the point that the Counsel General has just made is a commitment with regard to the Scottish Parliament to introduce absolute privilege, comprehensively, on a par with Westminster, because the Counsel General will be aware that in the case of the Scottish Parliament, and in our case as well, there is only very limited privilege; it only applies in the case of civil defamation. Now, that commitment is made in regard to the Scottish Parliament. It isn’t in a Labour Party manifesto as regards this Senedd. Is it the policy of the Labour Party that they will be introducing absolute privilege on a par with Westminster for this Parliament, as they are proposing to do for the Scottish Parliament?

The Member raises, I think, a very important point, because the issues has arisen in regard to Scotland, as you know, because it was less a privilege. There was concern when it came to being able to scrutinise Government because of various events that occurred some while back in there, and as I understand it, that is a matter that is there because it was felt necessary that the full extent of parliamentary privilege was necessary to enable Scottish Parliament to carry out its duties. My own view and my own understanding is exactly the same will apply to Wales, but as I understand is written, I think, in more detail somewhere within the manifesto that all Parliaments should have equal privilege, and therefore, the full extent of privilege that applies in Westminster would equally apply in respect of Scotland, but also in respect of Wales as well. That’s my understanding, but that’s what I would want to achieve and I think it would be a illogical for it to be developed in Scotland and not to be in Wales as well.

Thank you for your question. We engage regularly with our legal sector stakeholders, third sector advice providers through the National Advice Network and regional advice networks, and the Pro Bono Committee for Wales regarding legal support available to people in Wales.

Counsel General, you will be aware that the Lord Chancellor is being taken to the High Court over claims that legal aid fees are so low, they are preventing lawyers from providing representation for thousands of people who are eligible for it. The Conservatives are letting victims down, with many unable to claim support for cases, including victims of domestic abuse, torture and trafficking.

Does the Counsel General agree with me that access to justice has for far too long been out of reach for most vulnerable people and that we need to see these barriers, financial or otherwise, removed as soon as possible?

Well, thank you for that question on a matter that we have commented on on a number of occasions. I do fully agree with you; I think the diminution of legal aid over several decades is something that has very serious consequences, in that it now excludes a large number of the most vulnerable people

Thank you for your question. A dedicated legal team, including barristers, are engaged to support the Welsh Government’s response to the UK COVID-19 public inquiry.

Thank you for that response. I would ask if any members of the Government have requested legal advice on deleted messages from you and also what advice has been provided about messages that were revealed publicly recently. My concerns relate to processes and the need to learn lessons. I've got to know a number of campaigners from the COVID families for justice who lost loved ones and, without doubt—and I'm sure you'd agree—we owe them answers. All of this is not about apportioning blame; it's about learning lessons for other public health crises in the future. Do you agree with me that the only way that we can find the truth about those lessons would be to have a Wales COVID inquiry, as the families themselves have campaigned for so tirelessly over a long period of time?

Well, the COVID inquiry is an extremely important inquiry into one of the most important incidents that have affected all our communities throughout the UK, and, of course, many internationally, and I very much support the work of it. I think those who watch those aspects of the inquiry will recognise that it has been a very effective inquiry. Just dealing with your latter point, the issue in terms of an all-Wales inquiry, I have always taken a view that the most effective way of doing it, of having an inquiry, would be to have a UK inquiry. If I thought that the alternative would have been better and more effective, then I would have supported that, but I do not see that it would, because of the way in which the various aspects of decision making and engagement were so dialectically engaged and interconnected, and also that the powers to a COVID inquiry at UK level are far greater than would have been available to a Wales-only inquiry. I do not think a Wales-only inquiry would have been capable of actually delivering the sorts of answers that I think the COVID inquiry is.

In terms of the other points you raised, can I just say also that, right at the commencement, before the inquiry started, the then First Minister was absolutely clear that there would be a maximum of disclosure and, in fact, a waiving—the first country to actually waive entitlement to privilege in documents, which, of course, the UK Government still actually retains, and, of course, on the basis that the inquiry is entitled to whatever information it considers is actually appropriate. So, the Welsh Government is fully co-operating with requests for information for the inquiry. We have disclosed WhatsApp and text message transcripts and screenshots. The Welsh Government will disclose any informal communication, and should any further information be requested it will be provided. The inquiry will review and determine whether the informal communications are relevant or not to the Welsh Government's response to COVID-19, but there is an absolute commitment that what the inquiry considers is necessary to have it will receive.

Thank you for your question. It is the UK Government’s responsibility to ensure that legal advice is available and affordable for those who need it. For our part, we have protected the £11 million single advice fund in the 2024-25 budget to help people from our most disadvantaged and marginalised communities, to enable them access the advice and support that they need.

Thank you. I'm really concerned about when they access benefits and things, as a lot of people in Wales are not actually accessing fully the benefits that they're entitled to and this is why Citizens Advice have a part to play. Figures reveal that over £2 billion is being left unclaimed in Wales. So, that money belongs to those people. Advicelink Cymru, with cost-of-living pressures over the last few years, have precipitated in people seeking help, but still this money goes unclaimed. I note the North Wales Community Law centre, established in 2022, provides a much-needed service to those in need of free legal advice. Do you agree with me that we need to be doing more—all Ministers and we, as politicians? If we have the information, we need to be finding these people, where this money is due to them, and ensuring that they receive it. Diolch.

Firstly, could I thank you? It's a very important question that you, actually, raise, and the point that you raise with regard to north Wales and the pathfinder project and so on. I think those are important, and I know I engaged with the previous Under-Secretary of State for Justice, Lord Bellamy, very much on the pathfinder; I and, in fact, the Member Jane Hutt, as Minister then, we engaged with a view to encouraging the extension of that project. We went up to north Wales to actually see how it operated, and I think we were successful in getting agreement from Lord Bellamy. I hope this is something that will now carry through to apply to south-east Wales as well.

What we can't make up for, of course, are the serious cuts that have taken place since 2010 with regard to legal aid. But can I say, one area—? You raised a very important point about benefits. There are billions of pounds of unclaimed benefits each year. I have always taken the view that one of the functions of the welfare agency and so on is that those unclaimed benefits should be going towards actually providing advice to ensure the maximum take-up of those benefits. Those funds are there; what happens is that they go back into central Government coffers, whereas, in actual fact, I think they should be used in order to ensure that there is appropriate take-up—that's what I would like to see happen.

Thank you for your question. Post-Brexit funding has been a disjointed and a cynical exercise in cutting Welsh budgets and centralising devolved responsibilities. It must be for the Welsh Government, the Senedd and our partners to determine and deliver the next phase of regional investment in Wales, and we will discuss this with the incoming UK Government.

Well, thank you very much to the Counsel General for that response. Of course, this Labour Government have been very ready with criticism of the Conservatives in Westminster, as they excluded the Welsh Government from decisions here. But, over the past few weeks, we have heard that this is the intention of the prospective Labour Government in Westminster, following the announcement by Jo Stevens on the television a few weeks ago. How will that work, and does the Counsel General believe that this is satisfactory?

Well, can I say that I think that's not an accurate representation, I think, of the situation that existed before, and the situation that will actually be restored when we do have a Labour Government? In the past, of course, the EU Commission would set a framework in terms of regional structural investment and social investment. That framework would be there, and then a UK Government, and we would work with the UK Government in order to develop the specific UK part of that particular programme. Then, we would actually develop the programmes that would be within those frameworks that would be applicable to Wales. We would then engage specifically and directly with the EU in respect of those particular programmes. We can't escape the fact that, unfortunately, we are out of the EU, certainly, at the moment, and certainly out of the single market. But the idea, in terms of the fact that there should be a UK-wide, at least, framework, is really just restoring the position that existed previously.

What the Conservative Government did through the internal market Act and other measures was to actually completely bypass the Welsh Government and the devolved responsibilities that Welsh Government have. Those specific responsibilities are now actually being restored. So, this is a very significant restoration of responsibilities, and a very significant restoration of funding that will come to Wales, which will be decided within Wales, and, of course, beneficially to us, because there is no disadvantage to doing this—to be able to engage on a broader UK-wide framework in terms of investment, in terms of regional investment. So, I'm very confident that the restoration of those responsibilities will be a very significant improvement, and it's a very important restoration of devolved functions.

Well, we are committed to improving the accessibility of the law and, as part of our vision for promoting and facilitating Welsh as a language of the law, we wish to see all statutory instruments being made and published bilingually in up-to-date form.

Thank you, Counsel General. I'm pleased to hear your aspiration, and I was pleased to read recently, in the annual report for 2023 on the future of Welsh law, that 96 per cent of legislation and Bills in Wales are available in both languages. However, as you know, that's not true about statutory instruments, with only 43 per cent of them available in Welsh. If the Welsh language is to be treated equally with English, then it is crucial that that small figure increases substantially and swiftly. You will also know, Counsel General, that the legislation committee has written to you in the past with corrections to the Welsh versions of these instruments. So, what are you doing to ensure that the Welsh versions of legislation are available in a timely and correct manner? Thank you.

Well, can I thank you? It is a very important piece of work that needs to take place, and there is work that is ongoing. There has been considerable progress, and, as I tell people very regularly, we are now creating a whole new Welsh legal dictionary—one that did not exist before—in terms of the terminology, in terms of the use of language, on the basis that laws in Wales have to be equally available in Welsh and English in equal status and stature.

When we make laws in Wales, of course, we make them bilingually. I very much welcome the work that the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee has undertaken, in particular, obtaining the assurance that there is no reason why those laws that are made jointly, which involve the UK Government, should not equally be made in Welsh. I have to say that I think it is unacceptable that there can be reference to the availability of some of those laws in Welsh as a courtesy language. Welsh is not a courtesy language with regard to laws that apply in Wales, it is an equal language, and that is something we have to continue to maintain and to hopefully make further progress on.

We have, of course, been updating legislation on legislation.gov.uk, which I know the Member will be familiar with. Since we began working with the team, we have been able to bring 70.5 per cent of the Welsh language text of Welsh statutory instruments up to date, and 81.2 per cent of texts in the English language. It is a long-term project as there are over 40,000 effects to be applied to Welsh statutory instruments, a number which only increases as legislation is amended in the future. But I do commend those members of staff, those officials and those lawyers working for Welsh Government. There is an absolute commitment to achieve this, to make progress, and we will make that progress as quickly as we can. As the Member knows, for historic reasons, there is a large backlog and a lot of work to be undertaken, as well as the issue of codification and consolidation, which of course does also then transfer law that is predominantly written in English into bilingual text.

Thank you for your question. The Human Tissue Act 2004 established the Human Tissue Authority to regulate activities concerning the removal, storage, use and disposal of human tissue. NHS hospital mortuaries that undertake licensable activity, such as postmortem, will be licensed and subject to inspection by the authority.

Thank you very much for that. You'll be aware of the issues that arose a few months ago where, in the Grange hospital, the wrong bodies were delivered to families for burial. I'd be grateful to understand whether a legal assessment has been made by the Welsh Government about that issue, firstly.

There have also been deeply distressing questions that have been asked of that hospital relating to photographs that were taken of dying people and the bodies of people who had died during the COVID pandemic. Relatives of those who lost their lives during COVID have raised concerns with me about how those photographs were taken when their relatives couldn't possibly have given their consent. Those people were under the care of the NHS, surely they would have had the right to privacy by law under the Human Rights Act 1998, which sets out the rights to control how information about your private life is shared, including photographs that have been taken secretly.

So, what discussions have you had, please, or will you have with the Human Tissue Authority and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care about those issues that have arisen at the Grange hospital?

Thank you for raising those important and I think very distressing—particularly distressing for the families involved in those incidents. We can understand absolutely the distress that they have suffered as a result of that. And of course, again, there have been a number of incidents that are related in England as well—as you know, there has been the Fuller inquiry—as well as the issues that occurred within the Grange.

So, we do take the standard of NHS mortuary care and the dignity of the deceased extremely seriously. We do expect NHS health boards to comply with the requirements of the law, to meet Human Tissue Authority standards, and to be open and honest when mistakes are made. Welsh Government officials are in routine contact with the Human Tissue Authority, an England and Wales special health authority, and of course we do appoint a representative to that. Where necessary, officials are working in order to ensure that those assurances on security and standards of mortuary care are fully complied with.

Can I say also that the health board is undertaking an investigation that will be reviewed by the NHS Wales Executive, and any required actions or learning for the rest of Wales is already intended to be identified and to be shared with other NHS organisations?

I thank the Counsel General.

The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and the Trefnydd and Chief Whip will be making that statement. Jane Hutt.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There is one change to this week's Plenary business. The time allocated to Senedd Commission questions tomorrow has been reduced to 10 minutes. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which are available to Members electronically.

I would like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing, Local Government and Planning on the breakdown of Denbighshire County Council's ability to roll out kerbside waste collections, which was, to some degree, a scheme created in collaboration with the Welsh Government. The reason that my constituents are so angry at the moment is that the issues go far beyond teething problems. Denbighshire County Council has had six years to plan for this roll-out, but so far we've seen a display of complete incompetence and, clearly, a lack of due diligence in planning the roll-out of the Trolibocs scheme. The Welsh Government provided funding for new electric refuse trucks, which can only collect a fraction of the waste that the previous vehicles could, it has been revealed lately. This, on top of the staff shortages, has caused a complete breakdown in the council's ability to perform one of the most basic duties that taxpayers expect of it. The communication between residents and the council has also been appalling.

So, given that the Welsh Government share some culpability due to the financial incentives placed on the council, I would like the Cabinet Secretary to outline how the Welsh Government are working with Denbighshire County Council to rapidly find a solution and ensure that residents are properly updated on any developments. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Gareth Davies. Well, I thought we had a very useful exchange, actually, earlier on. I'm sure you found it helpful as well, the questions to the First Minister, and his responses to them—I think they came from Darren Millar. Obviously, I have answered questions each week on this issue, and I think it was also really helpful to hear from the North Wales Senedd Member Carolyn Thomas, as she had a cabinet role in Flintshire council in terms of waste collection, and the way that we are, together across Wales—all our local authorities—delivering on the most important changes that we need to endeavour to achieve with the collection of waste.

I think I can only add to what I've said on previous occasions that the changes Denbighshire are implementing—and, of course, it is to move to that kerbside-sort recycling service—do bring them into alignment with the collection blueprint, and that's the best practice recommended by the Welsh Government. We understand and are aware—. And I've actually had many responses from my responses last week, and I do respect the issues that residents have raised, and, of course, the Cabinet Secretary for climate change is responding to those.

I just hope that, actually, the expert advisers, WRAP Cymru, who are working with Denbighshire to resolve immediate issues, monitor the service, identify how this can be bedded in, to deliver those improvements, and, ultimately, we hope the issues are short lived, as we've seen successful transitions that have already been delivered by other authorities across Wales.

Trefnydd, I would like to request a statement, please, from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice, and also the Cabinet Secretary for Education. With the summer holidays fast approaching, I've had a number of organisations that usually support families during the holidays, such as foodbanks and so on, as well as schools, asking for information as to what provision and support will be made available. There is still uncertainty in terms of what will be running and what won't, and what support will be available with the cost of transport, for example. And we know that, for many families, how crucial this provision is in terms of the ability of parents to work and so on over the summer, but also to ensure that many children, as you know, in my region, who do unfortunately suffer because of child poverty, to ensure that they can access food easily and so on. So, can we have some clarity, please, as to when this information will be available, and when will we, as Senedd Members, be informed of this too, in order to ensure that we provide the right advice to those who approach us?

Thank you, Heledd Fychan, and thank you for drawing our attention to this issue. This is a very important matter to families in Wales. Thank you very much for your very important question.

I think this is something where we are looking at the provision of not just the school holiday enrichment programme, which you know has been rolled out by local authorities across Wales, but also you bring all of the elements of how we can help families and children, particularly those in our most disadvantaged areas, in terms of access to food as well as leisure, and issues relating to childcare, of course, as well. And this is a cross-Government initiative and responsibility, so I'll certainly ask the relevant Cabinet Secretaries to come back to report on the ways in which we're supporting families, children and the people of Wales in the forthcoming summer holiday.

I would like to ask for two statements. Whilst campaigning in the election, I have been disappointed with the number of empty houses, and that includes a detached five-bedroomed house. Whilst the loans for upgrading and the extra council tax are having some effect, can I request a statement on what further action the Government can take, and request that the Government consider a range of options, including allowing councils to compulsorily purchase a property that has been empty for five years?

Secondly, that we've not got enough dentists is apparent to anyone seeking an NHS dentist. Following the vote to withdraw from the European Union, in the dental practice that I'm aware of, a large number of eastern and southern European dentists just left. Whilst the Government is making progress on training dentists, can we have a statement on recruiting dentists from overseas, similar to what is being done with nurse recruitment, and on progress in getting dentists to sign the new NHS contract?

Thank you very much, Mike Hedges, for those two really important questions. Just in terms of empty homes, I know that you've raised this question in previous business statements, and also, I'm sure, to the Cabinet Secretary for local government and housing. We know that empty homes not only can be a blight on and a nuisance in our communities, but they are a waste of living accommodation for people who need those homes.

So, just to summarise those interventions and funding streams that we have to reduce the number of empty homes in Wales: in January 2023, we announced the empty homes grant. That's to bring 2,000 long-term—and many of them are long term, as you say—empty properties back into use. There's Leasing Scheme Wales, a social housing grant and the transitional accommodation capital programme. And, in fact, the empty homes grant provides grants of up to £25,000 to remove significant hazards from their properties, and there have been 721 valid applications to the scheme to date, as well as 65 properties completed, with all category 1 hazards removed.

I think this is something where we support local authorities to use the full range of their legislative powers. We also provide training to councillors and officials, and also all local authorities have produced empty property enforcement action plans, which each identify at least 10 empty properties for priority action. So, this is an important area of policy that I'm sure all Senedd Members will want to look at and monitor with their local authorities.

On your second point about dentistry, this is an issue, really, around overseas recruitment and retention that you've raised, of dentists. It's challenging due to the General Dental Council's registration rules. There's no provisional registration like there is in medicine for doctors. That means that dentists who actually have studied outside of the European Economic Area have to sit an additional exam to achieve GDC registration.

Before the UK general election was announced, the General Dental Council launched a consultation about making changes to enable provisional registration. That's been put on hold until after the election. We just hope that the new UK Government will pick it up immediately to open the doors to the overseas recruitment of dentists. This is important, as we need to recruit and retain these dentists, and we need them in the NHS. Of course, this is something where the contract that we have in Wales is important, encouraging dentists to deliver care and treatment on a risk and need basis.

Trefnydd, I'd like to call for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health regarding continuing healthcare funding. I've had a significant number of e-mails from people who are seriously concerned about the changes in the level of continuing healthcare funding from Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board—ultimately, the responsibility of the Welsh Government—and the impact this is having on capacity and the basic dignity of people who need care, and that funding for their care. You'll know that there are many vulnerable people who rely on the funding for their healthcare needs. A real-terms cut to that at the moment is leaving some people with a weekly gap of around £114 to be able to meet the healthcare needs that they have. One resident put it to me in an e-mail that this feels like just another rash and uncaring decision, leaving the most vulnerable and needy elderly people in crisis. Clearly, Trefnydd, people are extremely worried about this, and they're right to be so. So, a statement from the Cabinet Secretary to address these concerns would be very welcome.

Thank you for that question. The funding of community healthcare, as you know, is very much dependent on appropriate assessment of the care needs of a patient. This is something where, of course, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care is very engaged. Indeed, it's also very linked, often, to consideration of assessment relating to continuing care, social care and options and appropriate clinical diagnosis for transfers of care as well from our hospitals. I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for an update to clarify the availability of continuing care in terms of funding, but also in the context of the assessment, which is a clinical assessment in terms of the need for clinical care funding for patients in this situation.

Today, we should celebrate the achievements of Douglas Gowan, following his observations of birth defects in cattle as part of his work for the National Farmers Union back in 1967. We now know that pollution was coming from the Brofiscin and Miskin quarries nearby, which were being used as landfill sites, particularly by Monsanto in the dumping of polychlorinated biphenyls. Although this is a historic issue, it would appear that PCBs don't degrade and they're still very powerful pollutants. He spent 50 years campaigning against the dumping of these things in landfill sites, particularly in poor communities. Yesterday, a series of podcasts by a couple of investigative journalists, Dan Ashby and Lucy Taylor, revealed the extent of Gowan's work, which eventually killed him back in 2018. I wondered if we could have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for climate change on (a) what indemnity deposits Monsanto had to make before they sold their factory in Newport to another company, as clearly there are some legal obligations here that are outstanding, and (b) if the Cabinet Secretary could also outline how many of these sites were used for the disposal of PCBs, whether the Welsh Government is able to locate them, and what is their current status.

Secondly, on a completely separate matter—

Jenny, you've had two minutes already on the first matter.

Diolch yn fawr, Jenny Rathbone. You have drawn attention to a very important issue. Thank you for acknowledging the impact of this, particularly on the person who was so involved in addressing this and drawing this to the attention of the appropriate authorities. Just for clarification, and for the record, Brofiscin quarry was successfully remediated back in 2012-13, by capping the site. That work was overseen by Natural Resources Wales. They were the regulatory body responsible for securing the site's remediation, following its determination as contaminated land under Part IIA of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, and that was by Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council. Of course, the Welsh Government liaised very closely with NRW and the council throughout the investigation and remediation process. Financial support was provided to enable remediation and also to mitigate a potential pollution risk. I will draw the Cabinet Secretary for climate change's attention to the questions that you've asked and ask him to respond to this in writing to you. But I'll share this—with your permission—in the library for all Members. I think it's important that we do recognise that we've previously operated a discretionary contaminated land capital grant programme. That's been funded over the years, and it has supported local authorities and NRW to target sites that pose the greatest risk to health and the wider environment.

Trefnydd, I'm again requesting a statement from the Welsh Government regarding the ongoing situation at Withyhedge landfill site in my constituency. I listened carefully to the First Minister's comments earlier in response to the leader of the opposition, but in all his comments there was still no commitment from the Welsh Government to actually intervene and support the community. It's really frustrating and, frankly, quite appalling that it took a Channel 4 documentary for the Welsh Government to even call for a review, while I've asked week after week after week for support for my constituents, who have been living in this terrible situation for months.

The current situation cannot be allowed to continue. People cannot continue to suffer at the hands of this operator. In my view, the site should now be closed down permanently. This scandal has led people to question whether Natural Resources Wales is now fit for purpose. It's crucial that there is an independent public inquiry to get to the root of this mess. Given that the Welsh Government is now undertaking this review, we need to know what this entails and what it actually means. The Government must now bring forward a statement explaining exactly what that review will look like and how the Welsh Government is going to support those affected by this terrible situation.

Diolch yn fawr, Paul Davies. I do acknowledge that you have raised this question with me on a number of occasions at business statement, and, of course, it has been raised with the Cabinet Secretary for climate change, and, indeed, with the First Minister. And, of course, it was addressed very fully this afternoon in First Minister's questions. Clearly, the concern is acknowledged amongst the local community, and the need for swift action to prevent further distress and odours arising from the site has been emphasised to Natural Resources Wales. Again, I will repeat that Natural Resources Wales have increased their presence onsite and will continue to update the community.

On the point you make, Paul Davies, about the community and the communication, they have their website in terms of information, but also they are engaging. Of course, Pembrokeshire County Council, as you will well know, is also involved and considering an injunction requiring the operator to abate the public nuisance. The council is also working with NRW in progressing its legal challenge against the operator. We can't, obviously, comment on this ongoing legal action, but you know that NRW are working with the local authority in Pembrokeshire, Public Health Wales and Hywel Dda health board to develop this joint approach to address the issues of public concern at Withyhedge landfill site.

Just finally to say, Deputy Llywydd, enforcement notices have been served on the landfill operator, who's required to cover all exposed waste and complete landfill engineering work to contain and collect landfill gas. If the landfill operator fails to comply with the final deadline of the notice, Natural Resources Wales will be looking to take appropriate enforcement action, in line with their enforcement and prosecution policy.

And finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I just want to know what one has to do as an elected Member of this Senedd to obtain a brown sign. When the Cabinet Secretary now was the Minister, the Great Orme copper mines put in for a brown sign. We've also got the cable cars, the ski slope and the tram in Llandudno—major tourist attractions. However, on the A55, or anywhere, there is not a brown sign indicating there's anything going on in Llandudno at all, and requests have been made for this. So, I was just wondering whether I could have a statement, or just some help, really. We need a brown sign on the A55 or, indeed, on the A470, showing Llandudno to be the prime tourist resort that it is. I has probably taken me about seven years. They applied seven years ago. The application is still there, live, and they've waited seven years. It's not good enough. So, anything that you can do—a statement, or anything—would help me greatly. Thank you.

Thank you, Janet Finch-Saunders. We have brown signs all over Wales, leading us to some very beautiful places, and I'm sure yours will come your way.

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 4 is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language on 'Cymraeg 2050' and priorities. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Jeremy Miles.

The Welsh language is relevant and central to all aspects of society, and it is incumbent on all of us to protect it and to ensure its growth. That means that every one of us in the Welsh Government and our stakeholders have a role in this.

My first priority for the Welsh language is ensuring that everyone in Wales—children, young people and adults—gets a fair chance to become Welsh speakers. We are about to present a Bill to the Senedd that calls for transformational changes to the way we think about the Welsh language and education so that everyone can become Welsh speakers. The White Paper sets out the steps we propose to enable all pupils in Wales to become independent and confident Welsh speakers through the statutory education system and a way to recognise Welsh language skills and make the journey from school to the workplace that much easier.

The concept of describing Welsh language proficiency levels and of continuous improvement to transform outcomes for Cymraeg will be central to the Bill. Having one language continuum will mean that learners, teachers, parents and employers will have a common understanding of the journey towards becoming Welsh speakers, and that they are proud of the skills that they’ve developed. We’ll also increase Welsh language provision in early years settings, to give children more chances to have contact with Welsh as early as possible. We will continue to work to increase the number of Welsh-medium schools, too. Expanded access to more Welsh language opportunities for more people is my vision, and education is central to this. I very much look forward to working with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Lynne Neagle, in that regard.

My second priority is to look at the situation of our language in our communities. I’ve been fortunate enough to bring the Welsh language from my previous portfolio to my current one. Bringing the Welsh language and the economy together provides an unprecedented opportunity for us, and I’ll be looking at economic policy, skills schemes, funding sources, all through the Welsh language lens. This also means that I’ll be looking at the economy alongside housing, town planning, community development, social enterprise and transport. All of these things provide the infrastructure that will drive forward the economic development of our Welsh-speaking communities. I’ll be working with those communities and businesses across Wales to increase the use of the Welsh language, ensuring their sustainability for the future and making them attractive places to live and work.

It’s an opportunity to continue with things that we were already doing, such as Arfor, an economic programme that aims to support the Welsh language as well as strengthening the economy in the west of Wales. I’m also looking forward to hearing the results of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities's deliberations later this year. As I said at the beginning of my role as Minister for the Welsh language, it is important to challenge each other and to look in-depth at the situation of the language, and not to shy away from trying new things.

I’ve always thought of language policy as something that is cross-cutting, like equality, climate change and so on. I think there’s an opportunity now to look at our language in communities and local economies in a more integrated way than before. We’ll base all of this—and much more—on evidence. The 2021 census provides us with a snapshot of what’s happened over the last 10 years. We are looking at those results in detail, alongside other statistics and research that are available to us. And we’ve commissioned a detailed three-year sociolinguistic survey, namely Prosiect Bro. We expect the findings by the end of 2026, and the aim is to gain a better understanding of where Welsh is at a community level. This will help us to understand what needs to be done to protect Welsh-speaking communities, but 2026 can feel far away. So, Prosiect Bro will also support the work of the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities and provide a vital component of its final report.

My third priority is language transmission. We're already implementing a policy on language transmission in families, as well as recognising the role of new speakers as they pass on their Welsh skills to their future children. But we can't rely solely on family transmission anymore. We have to better understand how young people who speak the language communicate with each other, and how they transmit the language among each other. We must also look at transmission within communities, to create opportunities to speak and to enjoy the language.

Technology is a silver thread that runs through all of these areas. Today, therefore, I’ve published a call for information so that we can talk to people all over Wales and beyond to get their input into what we’re doing for Welsh language technology in the future. All of us use technology in one way or another, and increasingly we’re seeing artificial intelligence being used in more situations too. Both these things can play an important role in increasing the use of the Welsh language, and I want technology to help people to use more of their Welsh.

Since we published our Welsh language technology action plan in 2018, we’ve invested £2.5 million in creating and working on many of the digital components that are vital for our language. As of today, this includes our new partnership with OpenAI to improve how ChatGPT works in Welsh. And I’m looking forward to seeing what the next developments will be.

All of these areas are key to the future of the language—a future that gives every child and adult a fair chance to become a Welsh speaker, policies that strengthen the economy and protect our Welsh-speaking communities, and recognising the importance of language transmission in families, in our communities and workplaces. To make this a reality, we must all play our part together.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement and for the priorities that you have outlined today. As the new Welsh language spokesperson, I look forward to working with you.

We can all agree that the Welsh language is an important symbol and represents our nation, and therefore we can also agree that a great deal of work and effort is needed to keep the language alive. I think that we could also all agree that it's vital that we have appropriate and effective methods of measuring progress against the Government's targets, the ability of Welsh speakers and the rate at which the number of Welsh speakers is increasing.

We know that the annual population survey is one way of measuring progress, but as I said previously, it isn't a robust reflection of the ability or numbers of Welsh speakers. The data of the Education Workforce Council doesn't provide a clearer picture either. The number of registered teachers that can speak Welsh has declined since 2019, and the number of registered teachers that are unable to educate through the medium of Welsh has increased also. The Estyn surveys in 2022-2023 drew attention to the fact that the number of people completing their initial teacher training through the medium of Welsh is far lower than the Welsh Government target. Data from the previous census showed the number of speakers from the age of three and above had fallen from 562,000 in 2011 to 538,000 in 2021. This should ring alarm bells for Welsh Ministers, bearing in mind that they're basing the target on the 2011 target.

I would note, Cabinet Secretary, that having one robust target of 1 million Welsh speakers isn't enough, but we need more focus on the increase in the number of Welsh speakers. So, Cabinet Secretary, what has the Welsh Government put in place in terms of monitoring progress with regard to the number of Welsh speakers towards 2050? Do you believe it would be better to measure progress in five-year periods, for example, to ensure that we're on the right track? And what plan is in place to ensure that Wales gets back on track, if the Government fails to hit its target? At the time when the target was set, the education Minister, Kirsty Williams, said:

'The Welsh Government's knowledge and analytical services developed a projection for the number of Welsh speakers up to 2050, based on data from the 2011 census.'

So, although I agree that this is the best way of measuring the progress in terms of increasing the number of Welsh speakers, we could argue that the rationale for a target is now dated. This demonstrates that the Welsh Government hasn't found a robust metric to measure progress.

We should also note that, since 2017, when 'Cymraeg 2050' was set as a target, responsibilities have been spread across different Government portfolios. At one time, the responsibilities were held by a stand-alone Minister, and then the education Minister, and now we see that the responsibility lies with the economy portfolio. This could suggest, Cabinet Secretary, that the Welsh Government, for years, hasn't been able to place the Welsh language in a specific category and has passed responsibilities for the Welsh language between different ministerial offices, which has left it without a great deal of consistency, structure or definition. It leaves the Welsh language as responsibility without a firm foundation or evidence base. I believe if the Welsh Government of any political stripe is to make the Welsh language a priority, it shouldn't be throwing it from portfolio to portfolio. Cabinet Secretary, bearing in mind that responsibility for the Welsh language isn't consistent, and with a lack of robust methods of measuring progress, how does the Welsh Government intend to achieve the 2050 target?

And one further target that I wanted to close on is using the Welsh language in the community. It's important that the Welsh language isn't solely used in the classroom, to tick boxes to demonstrate the increase in the number of speakers; it should rather be used in everyday life. So, what support has the Welsh Government provided to communities and groups to ensure that it's easy to use the Welsh language in our communities and that there are resources available that are easily accessible? How can you be sure, Cabinet Secretary, that it will be easy to hit the 2050 target of 1 million Welsh speakers, and that the language isn't left to die, alongside the other policies that you have withdrawn? Thank you.

Well, thank you to Tom Giffard for those questions, and I welcome him to his new portfolio responsibilities.

Well, it's not true to say that the Government doesn't have a yardstick to assess whether we're on track for reaching our target. The data source that we have used from the outset, and continue to use, is the census results. That's why we are having regular discussions in this Chamber on the reduction that we saw in the most recent figures, and that is a fair challenge from Members, including what Tom Giffard has just said. But it's also true to say that that doesn't give you the complete picture. He's referred to the annual surveys and other data sources. We are currently working with the ONS in order to discover why, for the first time, I believe, the trend in the census shows something that is so dramatically different to the trend in the population surveys. The surveys also fill a gap, by the way, in terms of what the census measures—that is, the use of the Welsh language. The census doesn't measure use. And he finished on a point that I agree with him on, which is that that's hugely important, so the annual surveys do show how much use is made of the Welsh language.

So, the data sources are clear. We do have to look in future, by the way, at a world where there won't be a census. We know that how the UK Government generates data and uses data changes, and that's quite proper in terms of the changes and the sources available to us, so if we do enter a period where there is no census, it is right to say that at that point we will need to agree on another data source so that people can scrutinise Government on our objectives.

But it's not just results for every 10 years that we have. The trajectory—and he quoted Kirsty Williams and the work that KAS has been feeding into—that trajectory shows where we move from where we are today to 2050 is something that is consistently reviewed, and we're currently doing that as a result of the most recent census results. You will also see when we introduce the Welsh in education Bill that there are specific proposals in that Bill in order to tackle that issue.

And in terms of where the Welsh language sits within ministerial responsibilities within Government, that's a matter for the First Minister, but at one level there is a practical challenge. It might be ideal that the individual responsible for the Welsh language is a Welsh speaker; that's not necessary, but it might be advantageous, and that might steer that choice in practical terms. But just to give some comfort and assurance to the Member in terms of how the Government organises the civil service, the placing of the Welsh language division has been consistent. We have a director general who has specific responsibility for the Welsh language in her title. So, behind the scenes, that does provide consistency. I think that there's a positive way of looking at this. If you combine the Welsh language with education and the economy, and at other times with other responsibilities, it provides new opportunities from time to time to look at that particular policy area through a Welsh language lens. So, I would describe that as a positive.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement today. Three crucial priorities, and ones that it would be very difficult to oppose. I'm happy to support them, although I would note that Plaid Cymru's ambition for Welsh-medium education for all goes further than the Cabinet Secretary's statement. He used the words 'contact with Welsh', whereas we would argue that immersion in the Welsh language is the best way to achieve these objectives.

But, of course, it's one thing to set priorities; it's another thing entirely to deliver them. In that regard, there are a few questions that I would like you to answer today. One word that was missing from your statement today was 'workforce', because, after all, if the Welsh education Bill that we have co-operated on as two parties is to succeed, or if we are to increase the number of Welsh-medium schools and increase the Welsh language provision in early-years settings, the workforce will be entirely crucial. Clearly, the Welsh Government has the Welsh in education workforce plan, but looking at it and comparing the contents of it with the provision that we need to have in place, it's difficult to see how we can deliver the kind of growth that we need. After all, we know that we are losing teachers from the sector, and we aren't delivering the numbers that we need to have in training. So, do you intend to look again at this plan in the context of the Bill?

Another matter that I have raised with you consistently is the number of pupils taking A-level Welsh, and the fact that that number is in decline, and is nowhere near the 1,000 per annum target set by the Government a few years ago. So, what work are you doing with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to reverse this trend? And, certainly, also, in terms of looking at the Seren scheme and the number of students leaving Wales now, how are we ensuring that they continue to study the Welsh language if they study beyond Wales, and then also return here? It is concerning to see the number of students leaving Wales.

In terms of increasing the daily use of Welsh, there was another missing word, namely 'apprenticeships'. I'm sure that you will share the view that there is a strong connection between increasing use of the language and the need to develop bilingual workforces, and the fact that apprenticeships are now part of the same portfolio as the Welsh language provides an opportunity to enhance the opportunities available in Welsh in the post-16 sector. And you will, of course, be familiar with the work done by the Welsh Language Commissioner in this area, and the work, of course, of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. So, can you confirm that the funding increase that was reprofiled for the coleg Cymraeg from this year's budget to the 2025-26 budget still stands?

Me neither.

For what it's worth. [Laughter.]

But, for a number people, it does demonstrate disrespect if the Welsh language doesn't appear on the pamphlet, and, as Sioned Williams said now, the status of the Welsh language too—we can't just use the Welsh language if we think it's going to be beneficial in an election. And I think the same thing is true of businesses. We need to normalise use of the Welsh language, that people might want to access those services in the language of their choice—it's not optional.

I also welcomed your reference to the importance of technology and artificial intelligence. The fact that I found it difficult to think what 'artificial intelligence' is in Welsh speaks for itself; we tend to use 'AI'. But young people today—. It normalises use, and, if it isn't available in Welsh, they're less likely to adopt this technology through the medium of Welsh. So, it is vitally important that we consider that.

Now, there is a cross-party sense here in this Senedd of the importance of the Welsh language and the need to see this working, but we need more than words, we need action, and I'm concerned that we are in danger of missing these targets that Tom Giffard mentioned. We are falling behind.

I hope that you will take these as constructive questions in terms of reaching where we all want to get to, but it's also how we ensure that you have the resources as the Cabinet Secretary and as Government to deliver what we need to deliver to make progress on these three priorities and make them a reality.

Those questions are fair enough, and I accept the spirit in which they were asked. I agree with the Member. She started with immersion. One of the things that I am most proud of during my period as education Minister with responsibility for the Welsh language is the investment in immersion, and that happens in all parts of Wales. All local authorities have benefited from that. Everyone is at a different stage of their journey, but it is entirely clear to me that every local authority in Wales is seeing the benefit of this and sees that they are on a path to making provision, and this will be referred to in the Bill when that is introduced.

In terms of workforce, that is a challenge. That's why I would argue that it's right for Plaid Cymru to set a target, but you also have to have a means of delivering that target. And workforce is one of those challenges. We've known that for years. We can't force people to choose teaching as a career. We can't force people to choose to teach through the medium of Welsh. The workforce plan is creative, I would argue. It is one that has been co-produced by people across all kinds of sectors. So, it isn't something that lacks challenge or creativity, and, if Members have alternative ideas, I'm certain that the Cabinet Secretary and myself would be interested in hearing those new ideas. I know that there is a commitment in the plan to report on progress every two years, and that will happen on that cycle. Developments like e-sgol can mean that we do provide access to A-level Welsh. It's important that people study that. It's a crucial way of ensuring that we have enough students studying the Welsh language at university so that they can move into teaching, so I agree with the Member on the importance of that.

She referred to the work of Seren, and I think that that's something that we can all be proud of, that we're using the Seren programme to ensure that pupils can study wherever works for them. It is right to say that there is an important opportunity for us to ensure that we maintain a relationship with those students who leave Wales to study. The Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has launched a scheme to do that, specifically in the context of education, but that could be used more broadly too, and I personally would welcome that. I can provide the Member with an assurance that the plan is still in place to reprofile resources for the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol also.

In terms of resources in my own department, I think there have been increases in recent years in terms of the budget for the Welsh language, and that's important. It ensures that we can invest in immersion, that we can invest in financial incentives to attract people into teaching, that we can invest in technology too. So, it's used in many different ways.

I welcome the statement by the Cabinet Secretary. First of all, could the Cabinet Secretary explain what he means by '1 million Welsh speakers'? Is it a million in Wales or a million in Great Britain, because there are a number of Welsh speakers who have moved to England, particularly London, to work? Do I count, because I'm not fluent but I speak Welsh every day? Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that the best way of increasing the number of Welsh speakers is to support Ti a Fi and the Mudiad Metihrin?

In a community where 80 per cent speak Welsh, four in five people you meet will speak Welsh. In one where it's 60 per cent, it will be three in five, and in one with 40 per cent, it will be two in five. In the first community, Welsh is the natural language of the community—mynd i Gaernarfon. In the second, fel Abertawe, the natural language is English. How do we get more of these super-Welsh-speaking areas, because that's where you get the language in use?

I thank Mike Hedges for those questions. I can confirm that, in light of the fact that the census is the data source for measuring a million Welsh speakers, anyone who responds to the census and responds to say that they do speak Welsh would fall within the target. That means that many people who live outwith the UK who can speak Welsh aren't included in those figures, and we know that people are learning the language internationally, including on Welsh Government supported schemes. So, when I was living in London for a time, I could respond to the census and say that I was a Welsh speaker and would contribute towards that target. I do agree with him that investment in the early years is crucially important in order to ensure that we provide opportunities for children and their parents to begin that journey through the medium of Welsh, so that investment is hugely important. One of the elements that Prosiect Bro, which I referred to in my statement, is looking at is how the Welsh language is developing, and what are the patterns, within areas where the densities of speakers are higher and lower, so the kinds of examples that the Member mentioned in his questions are pertinent here, and looking at what socioeconomic influences do have an impact on speaker density and changes in those profiles. I'm expecting a report later this year from the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities, which, I hope, will demonstrate what patterns are in place and, with that kind of data and evidence, we will be able to respond to his final question in terms of how we can increase the density of Welsh speakers in our communities.

And finally, Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Sorry, I'm learning Welsh. I speak a little bit.

There are many countries interested in Wales and the Welsh language, and I think that's growing through sport—the kind of publicity that Wrexham football club is receiving—through music, arts and culture, and hearing 'Mae hen wlad fy nhadau', 'Yma o Hyd' and 'Calon Lan' has fostered a sense of pride, I believe, and a desire to be part of the Welsh-speaking and Welsh-singing community as well, which is really important.

So, I'm learning Welsh,

and I keep saying to my Welsh teacher that I don't need to be fluent; I just want to be able to converse and understand and to take part when I can. I learnt Italian through immersion in the language and necessity when I lived over there, but I wasn't grammatically correct until I did my GCSE on return to this country. So, Cabinet Secretary, we have this target, and so many people will still be on their first steps on the continuum of the journey, so can you outline how we actually define a Welsh speaker? [Laughter.]

Well, the Member makes a point that is at the forefront of many people's lives as they learn a new language, including those who learn Welsh, and, to be fair to the Member, it is part of the discussion that we've been having for decades in terms of what a Welsh speaker is, and this idea that you have to have some measure of fluency in Welsh to define yourself as a Welsh speaker, but those days are long gone. The Welsh language belongs to us all, and you don't need to be fluent in the way that the Member mentioned in order to feel that warmth towards the Welsh language and have that idea that the Welsh language belongs to us all.

In terms of what constitutes a Welsh speaker, the census asks an individual to make that decision for himself or herself as to whether they are a Welsh speaker, so it's a personal decision, and it can be a complex decision, which relates to people's identity very often, but one of the things that we will have an opportunity to do in introducing new legislation is to provide some context around that in order to provide comfort and support to people to ensure that they understand that they don't have to have that level of proficiency or full fluency before they can describe themselves as a Welsh speaker. What's important is that we encourage people to use the skills that they have—a little every day, if that's what they have—and to learn more and more as they go, so that we are on that trajectory.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 5 is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs: the Welsh food system—producing food sustainably.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today, I'm very pleased to set out for Senedd Members how this Welsh Government is driving a more sustainable food and drink sector in the face of the climate emergency. And as we know, climate change is not just a distant future threat that we can ignore for now; it is a present reality for households and for businesses right across Wales today. Indeed, already, over the last five years, Wales has experienced several extreme weather events. We're seeing extreme heat, heavy rainfall, windstorms, droughts, extreme cold and snow. A recent report commissioned by the WWF estimates that climate change costs the agricultural sector in Wales tens of millions each year, with an estimated £175 million loss in 2018 alone.

Globally, droughts and heatwaves have detrimentally impacted the supply chains of cocoa, olive oil, rice, soy beans, leading to reduced availability and substantial price increases in the UK, putting pressure on food business costs and ultimately on consumer prices.

So, in the face of these challenges, there is a growing trend, as well, of ethical consumption. More than ever, the public expect suppliers to embrace sustainable production practices. Indeed, market insights reveal that one in three consumers in the UK have stopped purchasing certain brands due to ethical or sustainability related concerns. So, more and more, we're seeing that people want to spend the pound in their pockets in ways that also benefit the planet.

Now, as we all know across the Chamber, a sustainable future for farming is key to the sustainable future of food and drink in Wales. The sustainable farming scheme is crucial to delivering this, and has been the topic of a separate oral statement just a few weeks ago. The Welsh food and drink industry, as part of food production post the farm gate, must also respond to these sustainability demands, as we've set out in our vision for the food and drink industry.

As part of our net-zero commitment, we are supporting businesses to reduce their carbon footprint through process efficiency, resource use and waste reduction. So, in this context today, I will focus on updating you all on the support we've put in place for Welsh food and drink manufacturers to decarbonise, to improve the delivery of positive environmental and social impacts, and to respond to the climate impacts on food production. Now, while policy developments at national and international levels will set a direction of travel, the market itself will also drive the industry towards a more nature-positive future.

To support businesses to develop the skills they need to progress on the sustainability agenda, we have established fully funded training programmes on sustainability, decarbonisation and adaptation, tailored especially to the food and drink industry. These include practical toolkits and online self-assessment tools designed to support businesses to identify their strengths, areas for improvement, and potential vulnerabilities related to climate change. The guidance covers key areas for improved sustainability such as energy management, water efficiency and reducing waste, as well as societal concerns for providing fair work. Support also helps businesses to develop risk-management techniques for potential disruptions to electricity, water supply and distribution, as well as climate-related incidents such as flooding. Now, this all helps businesses reach bespoke sustainability strategies, empowering them to build resilience and to thrive in an increasingly unpredictable climate landscape.

There’s also further support for businesses to strengthen their sustainability practices through the sustainability cluster, which now includes over 100 member businesses. The sustainability cluster actively promotes the sustainability agenda at major food events, like the Royal Welsh Show, offering businesses and their supply chains invaluable opportunities to engage and to learn. I'm looking forward to visiting the stand myself later next month.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. How to deliver healthy, nutritious food for all in the face of shrinking resources, a growing population and, of course, global uncertainties is a major challenge across the globe, especially here in Wales. It is one that the Welsh Conservatives very recently, especially Peter Fox and myself, have risen to, and we've offered legislative solutions. Increasing food security and tackling food poverty and malnutrition were key aims of the Food (Wales) Bill. I get really sad when Members bring these legislative proposals forward: Sam Rowlands recently, with outdoor education, Paul Davies, when he brought forward autism and additional learning needs—some really good laws that, if implemented now, we wouldn't be having the issues we are.

Peter's Food (Wales) Bill had fantastic requirements, including: placing a duty on Welsh Ministers to produce an annual food strategy for Wales to tackle food poverty and malnutrition; to ensure the sustainable growth of the food sector and that sustainable local food producers have access to adequate support and incentives—who could disagree with that; requiring local authorities and other public services to develop community food plans; to strengthen public procurement—who could disagree with that; to strengthen statutory requirements on food labelling, such as the country of origin and labelling for food consumed at home and food consumed in food services, hospitality settings, hospital settings, school settings—who could disagree with that; eliminating food waste by obliging supermarkets and other stores to donate unwanted food to charities and foodbanks—who could disagree with that?

So, Cabinet Secretary, given that we do get sensible legislative proposals coming forward, will you reconsider the opposition to the measures proposed, and perhaps we can look at this on a more cross-party basis? In April, I brought forward a legislative proposal before the Welsh Parliament that would create a duty for the Welsh Government to set targets to improve food security in Wales. I'm grateful for the 24 votes in favour, but I see no intention by Welsh Government to actually bring this in. So, will you, again, look at that, look at what we've offered up? And, even if you bring a Bill forward, if it contains a lot of the proposals that we put in, does it really matter whose name is on the tin?

Could I, at this point, congratulate our suppliers in the Members' tea room and restaurant, Rob, the manager, and the team of staff there, working with the Soil Association, and our team here in the Commission's sustainability department? They have had an award, and that's fantastic—that Members and visitors now here, in this Senedd, can eat sustainable food.

Janet, you need to start concluding now, please.

Yes, I know, I know. Do you know, I could talk about this longer—

I'm sure that you could, but you haven't got the time.

—but I'm sure that I will meet with the Cabinet Secretary. We need to work together, I think, cross-party. There are serious threats to our global food security. It's not just about choice any more. I want to work with you on this, Minister, going forward. Diolch.

Janet, thank you very much, and can I just start where you have ended? My approach is to work with people where they've got good ideas, and to try and take these forward. I, like others, will pay tribute to Peter's work, which you flagged up there, in bringing forward the legislation. But I simply say that it's not always the case—. I always describe myself as the reluctant legislator. It's not always the case that laws are needed to make things happen, or strategies, or big papers that land on shelves. It's actually getting on with the actions that we need to deliver food security, resilience, sustainability and so on.

So, let me just touch on a few, because I'm happy to work with you and with others on the best ways forward. So, first of all, as a result, actually—. It's not accidental that, on the back of the debates that happened around food policy around the time of Peter's Bill coming forward, the food policy forum was established, back in 2023. That focus now, cross-Government and with stakeholders, on food policy continues.

We are looking forward to bringing forward 'Food Matters' very shortly, which I know Members of the Senedd will be anticipating, and also bringing forward, hopefully, by the end of this year—. It's part of the programme for government commitments to bring forward the community food strategy, and I'm casting my eyes, eight or nine weeks into this job, over exactly what that community food strategy will entail and what it won't, as well. So, it's not some magic ring that binds absolutely everything together, but I think that the 'Food Matters' policy will bring together all those actions that we are delivering across Government and across policy. The community food strategy, I think, will add something significant to it.

You mentioned Rob and the catering team here. I was delighted to join them, actually. They have just had the bronze award for sustainability. The bronze award doesn't sound like much, but it's a huge step, and I'm sure that Rob and the team will be looking to do more. But the fact that they are looking to source as much as they can locally, fresh, within Wales, and also looking at those wider environmental impacts that I touched on in my opening remarks, so they're not denuding, whether it's rainforests in a far part of the world or it's increasing soya production, and so on, is very important.

Food resilience, of course, is part of food security, and that's very much part of my opening remarks—what we can do with food producers, farmers but also food producers in the supply chain, to build that resilience into them. It's alternative product design as well, as they face perhaps disruption to their supply chains going forward. I think this is good, proactive forward thinking of us, working with stakeholders to make that happen.

Thank you for your statement, Cabinet Secretary. I don't think there's anything in it that I disagree with. I was counting as you were listing the initiatives. There were around nine different activities that are currently ongoing, and then you slipped in another two towards the end that maybe are ones that are ambitions of yours. One is mandating climate risk reporting to large food and feed businesses. In principle, I've no issue at all with that, but clearly there are questions about how that might work in practice and avoiding a bureaucratic tick-box exercise. But I'm sure you'll be committed to working with the sector to develop that. Likewise then, developing a comprehensive decarbonisation plan for the industry. Again, that's something I think in principle is absolutely right, it's just the nuts and bolts of how that can be made to work.

In fact, I did feel the statement, as much as I was in agreement with much of it, felt a little bit discombobulated. It was a list of individual activities happening. I was hoping, having seen the title of this statement today, that we were building up towards a comprehensive, cohesive, co-ordinated farm-to-fork food strategy here in Wales. It just felt a little bit of a scatter gun, really, in terms of listing different initiatives. But maybe the decarbonisation plan can maybe bring some of those threads together.

I'm sure you'll agree that the biggest boost for the sustainability of the food and drink sector in Wales would be to procure more locally produced food—adding value, creating jobs, cutting food miles, putting healthier, higher quality food on all our plates. So, maybe you could tell me what the Welsh Government is doing particularly around public procurement of local food and your plans in terms of growth in that area, and, hand in hand with that, of course, what you're doing to promote local processing and increase local processing capacity. I raised with you last week concerns about Mona Dairy, of course, exactly the kind of initiative we want to see succeeding in Wales. Unfortunately, they haven't. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth, it undermines the confidence of primary producers to back these kinds of initiatives. So, maybe you could elaborate a little bit about how we can make sure that we continue to see growth in that potential.

You touched on Brexit and Tory trade deals that, frankly, are undermining much of our food and drink producers at the moment. Do you therefore agree with Plaid Cymru's calls for Wales to have a veto on future trade deals if we believe that they are detrimental to the food and drink sector here in Wales? And would you agree with Plaid Cymru again that we would be better off as part of a single market and customs union?

A fair and well-functioning supply chain is critical. We don't have that at the minute, so, again, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts about the need to strengthen the powers of the groceries adjudicator to tackle unfair practices. And would you, as Cabinet Secretary, be willing to lobby any incoming UK Government on this, to help improve transparency within our supply chains? Similarly, labour shortages are a barrier for much of the food and drink sector in Wales and beyond. We desperately need to ensure that the shortage occupation list is amended in a way that supports our producers here in Wales. I hope very much that you'd be willing to commit to that as well. Diolch.

Diolch, Llyr. There were some really helpful and interesting points there. Just first of all to say that, on the exploring of the mandating of climate risk reporting for the large food and feed businesses—one of the recommendations of the climate change committee—and also developing a comprehensive decarbonisation plan for the industry, we will, of course, work through the detail of this with stakeholders. We want to get this right. It's a hallmark of the approach that I take. We want to get these policies right for everybody and move forward together. But that could be quite a breakthrough, if we get to that point, because having climate risk reporting there for the larger businesses, having that really bold decarbonisation plan, takes us where we need to be going, not just on carbon budget 2, but also we're soon going to be starting work on carbon budget 3 as well, and I know your committee will be keeping a close eye on this. So, it's that sort of innovation, but bringing people with us, that I think is really important.

On more locally produced food—I said this two months and a bit ago now, I think it is; I've lost track now—I've started to look in detail now at the community food strategy going forward. That's an element I'm hopeful of, and I'm keen to see how much we can do within that, taking where we are already, some of the work that we've done already, but seeing what more can be done. We're in the middle of a general election, if anybody hasn't noticed. There are some offers being put forward in different manifestos at the moment about what more we can do. I've always been taken, as a Welsh Italian—I'm not saying that this is the way forward—by the idea that you can specify within procurement the local and the fresh, as they do in Italy, indeed, and as they do in parts of France. Curiously, by the way, as I've mentioned before, they do that within the current EU rules, but who knew? So, I think there is something to be looked at there, and I'm hopeful that the community food strategy, which I'm taking a bit of time now to get my teeth into, is going to help us with that.

On the issue of the voice for Wales in future trade deals, we've had no voice, Llyr.

We have no voice in the trade deals.

Nothing at all. It would be good to have some voice. Regardless of who is sitting in those top seats at a UK level going forward, particularly in food, not just our primary producers, but in the wider food supply chain, we need to have that voice. I'm not saying veto, I'm saying a voice. It's the sort of voice that we used to have, curiously, before we went through Brexit. We now need to reinvent that and not be locked out of those discussions. That is really grown-up, serious politics. One of the greatest assets for UK trade and industry, as they are for Wales, are some of our producers in Wales, like Halen Môn, which I visited two or three weeks ago, I think for the third time. I saw them when they were tiny, when it was literally a Heath Robinson contraption that they were using, bringing it through the Crown Estate and so on. Now it's bold, and their reputation worldwide is great, but, actually, being able to speak up for them, and for our farmers, and everybody else, I think is important. Surely that's a benefit to the UK, to hear our voice, and Scotland's voice, and so on.

On the Groceries Code Adjudicator, there are some interesting options that are being put forward in various manifestos at the moment. I was there when the GCA was originally brought into legislation. There were debates at that time whether it should be given more teeth, whether it could extend further down the supply chain and so on. I'm not of a settled position on this, but if we are going to do this, I think we need to look at it again as a UK entity. I'd be interested to have those discussions with UK Ministers to say, 'Well, what's our evaluation of how the Groceries Code Adjudicator has done, could it do more, and if it were to do more, what would those options be?' I think it's an open discussion at the moment. I'm certainly aware of my meeting recently with primary producers, particularly farmers, who are saying, ‘We still don't feel we're getting quite the deal that we need for some of our produce. It seems that the value is further up the chain than us.’ So, either through the GCA, or something that my predecessor, Lesley Griffiths, did with the retailers—. I'm having shortly, within the next fortnight, my first meeting with them. I'm keen to explore this as well with them to say, 'Can we do this outside of strengthening GCA, is there a willingness there, particularly with your assurance schemes and so on, to pay the premium for what you're asking producers to do with high animal welfare, high environmental standards—are you going to pass that value down or do we need to come at it a different way like the GCA?' But thank you for those questions.

I don't disagree with anything that Llyr said at all, so I'll try not to repeat. I think ‘producing food sustainably’ is your title, and that wasn't quite what was in the statement, so somebody needs to change the titles.

Puffin Produce has been very successful in getting all supermarkets to supply their potatoes and core veg like cauliflowers, carrots, onions, even leeks. What's the flooding resilience of Puffin Produce, given that, elsewhere in Britain, potatoes are going to be a very rare commodity, and a warning to us all?

As Llyr mentioned, our ambition is to strengthen the foundational economy, so how are the 100 plus members of the sustainability cluster helping to stimulate local growers of veg and fruit given that droughts and heatwaves aren't just affecting the far-flung parts of the world but southern Europe, like Italy, as well? These are the traditional markets that we've drawn veg and fruit from, given that we are not self-sustaining in any way, shape or form.

What measures are supermarkets taking to break down their supply chains so we don't have north Wales eggs being sent off to Lincolnshire to be packaged and then sent back to north Wales shops? That's absolutely ridiculous. We need to have, instead of these just-in-time models that the supermarkets have, a just-in-case model, and a much more sustainable imprint on everything they do.

You need to conclude now, Jenny, please.

Lastly, what action is being taken on eliminating ultra-processed food from recipes in this collaboration with food innovation centres, given that it's absolutely not sustainable from the health point of view to continue to allow these chemicals? And how will you ensure these producers are aware of their global responsibilities not to be using products that have been grown from tearing down the rainforest?

Thank you very much, Jenny—a series of good questions there. In terms of not only Puffin Produce but the wider producers and the supply chain with it, I think this is exactly why a number of the measures I talked about in the opening statement are important from a product design perspective, to build resilience in and to use different ingredients, and so on and so forth. But also, at a primary producer level, the farmers in the field that Puffin Produce use, we need to give them the resilience as well, and that's why actually getting the sustainable farming scheme bang on and right so we can all move forward together is important. Because part of the SFS is also to produce—. Well, the ‘sustainable’ in the title includes all the meanings, but it includes that resilience to climate change. And whether that means in different layers within the pasture land, whether that means in different crops that we are using, different ways that we protect and enhance the soil, and so on, all of those are critical to climate resilience. So this has to be something we do right across from farm, as Llyr was saying, right through to the supermarket shelves, right along the supply chain, and that does mean different product design, it does mean looking at the resilience of the land as well, and everything in between.

Some of the things I mentioned in my opening statement show the work that we're putting in and the investment we're doing through things like the sustainability clusters and others, to actually drive that innovation. And in fact, you rightly pointed out, ‘Well, how do we spread that then, that best practice, not just amongst the producers who are currently involved, but wider in the supply chain?’ That's precisely what the cluster is intended to do. We're growing that. It is growing. There are more people, more organisations coming on board with that. And the purpose of that cluster is not only to innovate but to show by example exactly what can be done, and then to spread that best practice. As a good co-operator, I like that approach of doing it: learn, innovate and then spread best practice. We're very focused on that. Some of the events I mentioned in my opening remarks will give us the opportunity to do that as well, and get more people involved within it.

You raise, quite rightly, the approach that we've traditionally had of just-in-time management; I learnt it as a HND business student about 30 years ago. Now, actually, we do need to think differently. That greater resilience—as you say, just in case—I was very interested, quite a few Members, yourself included, attended recently the event in the Pierhead with the future generations commissioner, and I'm glad that they have turned their attention to food as well and the importance of it, and the need to resist not just future shocks but shocks right now as well to the system. So, I think we do need to build that in as we bring forward the community food strategy, as we take forward—because it's been I think since 2021—our food sector strategy overall. We need to refresh these in light of resilience, climate change adaptation and so on.

I welcome the statement, all that's been said, and I think it's really important to have locally grown, non-processed food for the health and economy of the nation. I'd like to ask you about decarbonising the industry. So, I was working on a campaign with Jo and Bleddyn from Friends of the Earth regarding fridge doors, chiller doors, and I had a meeting with retailers through Welsh Government, but it seems to have stagnated. So, I was wondering if you would help push that further. You go into a supermarket on a warm sunny day and it would be freezing because of all the cold air coming from chillers, and it wastes so much energy. So, I was just wondering if you could help pursue that.

Carolyn, I'd be more than happy. If you could drop me a note on that, I'd be more than happy to see where that's got to and to kick-start that. And you mentioned how we can help with decarbonisation. There are number of ways; I touched on them very, very briefly in my opening remarks, but one of them is the carbon reduction plan pilot programme. This is quite an exciting project. It's being delivered through the food division's wider programme, so it includes the food and drink sustainability cluster, the scale-up trade development and skills for success programmes. It's working with partners to do things such as baselining their carbon emissions, developing bespoke carbon reduction plans for that business. We've had over 80 expressions of interest now from food and drink businesses so far received. And the other thing is balancing the economic growth with carbon reduction, and this is the way that we can be cleverer on our innovation and investment. We can do it together and, in fact, if we innovate on resilient supply chains, then we build in resilience to them from future shocks and price shocks by doing so. So, there are ways we can do it. We've also got collaboration with our food innovation centres, doing things such as reformulating recipes and much more besides. But if you drop me a note on that particular one, I'd be more than happy to look at how we can pick it up from where you left it and see if we can nudge it along.

Finally, Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Food sustainability is affected by things like war and climate change, and we've seen war creating unreliable access to key imports of food but also fuel. So, we have to stop our dependence on fossil fuel. But climate change has produced the wettest winter on record, huge issues with slugs and snail infestations right across our country here in Wales, but also local harvests as a consequence, because you couldn't plant anything—it was too cold, it was too wet. Then the opposite, the extreme heat, with failed European crops of salads and suchlike.

So, those are some of the challenges. Some of the answers and investment, of course, are the local weekly food and produce markets, and I frequent one quite often in Haverfordwest, for example. But running alongside that, Minister, could we look at encouraging some of the empty retail shops becoming pop-up shops, with a defined agenda of what's going to be there and when, and excite people to come along, so you regenerate your town centre, but you also give an avenue for retailers to sample whether they might consider taking something more sustainable to that community and themselves in the future? And street food—we don't do street food very well, generally. We do very well when we do street food, but we don't encourage it. It's not in our culture and yet we produce some of the very best food, whether it's red meat, whether it's veg or whether it's fruit.

Joyce, thank you very much, and I'm conscious that we're having some contributions here that are helping me write the community food strategy live. [Laughter.] There is this issue about how we can make that good, nutritious food available on our high streets, and something to do with how we use those empty spaces as well. It was very interesting when I was visiting relatives in Italy, going along a back street, and it was a pop-up store that had emerged in the back street of a town, and it was a mixture of food that was being recycled from some of the supermarkets, but more than that, it also had allotment food and community grower food as well, and it was being sold at a significant discount, very affordably—lots of people of all different socioeconomic backgrounds were going in there. I was intrigued; I went in to see what was going on. But also we've got, closer to home, people like the Coalfields Regeneration Trust, who I know have been doing things where they've invested in empty buildings within communities, and developed them as not just community hubs, but food hubs as well—really interesting. I think there is more within this, and I'm hopeful that some of the suggestions coming forward today might find their way into that community food strategy. So, it isn't simply to do with the big producers and the big suppliers and so on; it's actually to do with drawing together those networks of allotmenteers, community growers, people in that third sector space that want to help that along, and also regenerating our towns and communities. But more than anything, in terms of the sustainability agenda, putting in front of people, in places they can get to, on the streets where they live, good, affordable, nutritious food.

Now, I don't think there's one magic switch that does that, but there's a whole lot of pulling strands together to make that happen. And I think it's very much in line as well with some of the forward thinking in places that we've seen, in the Abergavenny Food Festival and elsewhere across Wales, but also the work that the future generations commissioner is looking at as well, and I have to say, thoughts that have come forward in this Senedd Chamber before from many Members. So, let's see where we get to on the community food strategy, but I'm picking up ideas today as we go along.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 6 today is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care: investment in the education and training of healthcare professionals—2024-25. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you for the opportunity to make this important statement about investment in education and training of healthcare professionals.

The NHS in Wales makes contact with around 2 million contacts a month in a population of just over 3 million people. The vast majority of the public are very happy with the service they receive, and this is thanks to the heroic efforts of the 110,000 workers who staff our NHS, in addition to the 80,000 who work in social care. Making sure these staff are highly skilled and well trained is critical to this success, but we must also look to the future to ensure that the workforce of tomorrow is able to be responsive to changes in patients' needs, especially when we consider the changing demography of Wales, with an ageing population with multiple health challenges.

We're determined to ensure that we deliver a workforce that is highly qualified, empowered and inspired. Investment in this area, therefore, is critical. So, despite the extremely challenging financial situation facing the Welsh Government, I agreed this year to maintain the same level of funding for the 2024/25 academic year, as in 2023/24, which was our highest level of investment ever.

The £283 million invested in the training of healthcare professionals means that we will see an increase in the number of training places compared to the number of places that were actually taken up in the previous year. This investment means we can train up to 2,400 nurses, 224 midwives and 127 paramedics, providing funding in total for over 5,700 training places across various professions and specialties.

Through our continued investment in the provision of NHS education and training, we hope to encourage individuals to consider health and care in Wales as rewarding careers. We will provide excellent learning opportunities to prepare trainees for the future. We're also encouraging innovative and new training and career routes, including 'grow your own' pathways, offering individuals different options from the traditional learning paths, which means that people can train in their own communities, and they don't need to go away to college or university.

Ensuring a sustainable future for general practice in local communities across Wales is a priority, and we've taken steps to improve access to services and incentivise GP recruitment. Our 'Train. Work. Live.' marketing campaign continues to deliver a significant increase in the take-up of GP training places. We've also provided financial incentives to attract GP trainees to specialist training schemes in north, mid and west Wales—areas historically hard to recruit to. Since the introduction of these incentives, 307 trainees have joined the scheme.

There are more front-line NHS Wales staff than ever before. The number of consultants, nurses and midwives has reached a record high. The NHS is the largest employer in Wales, employing over 110,000 people. We are clear that it is equally important to retain our current staff as it is to make sure we're recruiting new staff. This is underpinned via investment in providing vital continued professional development—CPD—opportunities. CPD is essential to support, develop and maintain the skills of our workforce, with clear benefits for workforce well-being, retention and quality and safety of care.

I recognise that work-life balance is becoming increasingly more important, and we need to ensure flexible work and learning opportunities are available. These changes require new thinking at strategic, regional and local levels if we are to maximise our resources and continue to provide high-quality services to patients. This is one of the reasons why I previously announced my decision not just to maintain the NHS Wales bursary, but also to remove the reduced rate maintenance loan. This enables eligible Welsh domiciled NHS bursary students starting or continuing their studies in academic year 2024/25 to access the full amount of the maintenance loan.

Through our programme for government commitment to retain the NHS Wales bursary scheme, we provide a package of financial support for healthcare students who commit to work within the health or social care sectors in Wales for up to two years post qualification. This package of support covers both tuition fees and an element towards living costs.

I'm considering a public consultation exercise be undertaken in the next 12 months to explore the best and most appropriate way of continuing to support those who choose to study healthcare-related programmes in Wales. As part of this consultation, we aim to ensure that the Welsh system offers comparable benefits with other countries, ensuring Wales remains as a preferred student destination.

Last year,I announced that we will be funding up to 140 medical student places a year at the new north Wales medical school, with direct intake from September of this year onwards. Establishing a medical school in north Wales will help us to train more medical students and will ensure training opportunities and the provision of qualified doctors are spread across Wales. We expect the student numbers to increase steadily and to reach their optimum number from 2029 onwards. The new school will be a boost for the people of north Wales and for the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board.

Given that the current financial and workforce challenges are not unique to Wales, I understand that education and training alone are not enough to resolve our immediate workforce and system challenges, and those starting to train in September will not be fully qualified for some years. I also recognise the significant challenges facing our services and workforce today, and this is why, alongside maintaining the significant level of funding for training the new workforce into 2024-25, I retained £5 million within the health budget to be used for nationally run programmes to support ethical international recruitment. This isn't a new initiative. For decades, the NHS in Wales has benefited from the skills and dedication of internationally educated healthcare professionals. As part of Wales in India, I signed an agreement on 1 March with the Government of Kerala to bring qualified healthcare professionals from India to work in the NHS in Wales. Up to 250 professional healthcare workers will be recruited under the new agreement between the Welsh Government and the Kerala Government. This is a direct Government-to-Government relationship, working through a not-for-profit Kerala Government agency. Of course, ethical recruitment is paramount. We must ensure that we're not taking vital staff away from countries facing their own challenges. But we also need to continue to invest in training and retaining our own domestic workforce. International recruitment isn't a silver bullet.

Finally, configuring the future NHS workforce requires thinking about the work to be done and how it can be undertaken effectively and efficiently. We will continue to do this in partnership with key stakeholders to provide the NHS with the workforce it needs to respond to the challenges facing it now and in future. Thank you very much.

Thank you for the statement, Cabinet Secretary, and also thank you for making it available ahead of time today. Of course, an effective healthcare training strategy is absolutely vital for the success of the health service and the well-being of people across the country. Not only do patients benefit from a well-trained workforce, but people in Wales, particularly younger people who are pursuing a career in healthcare, will benefit too.

So, Cabinet Secretary, let me start by joining you in recognising the incredible efforts of those nearly 200,000 people working in our health and social care services, and also in welcoming a number of points that you've shared in your statement this afternoon. Firstly, I'm pleased that you've acknowledged the need to incentivise GP recruitment. It's good to see progress in this area. I'd be keen to see this continue, because we both know the importance of getting primary healthcare right, and our rural communities have some unique challenges when it comes to recruitment of GPs in those areas.

I think you're also right to recognise the work-life balance and the need for more flexible working arrangements. Focus in this area, in my view, will go a long way in improving recruitment and retention. My concern, perhaps, might be how it's being delivered on the ground, and making sure our health boards are looking at new ways of ensure that flexible work-life balance for people on the ground. And the third area that I'd like to welcome from your statement is the progress at the north Wales medical school. Whilst not huge in terms of raw numbers, I think it's big in terms of its intent and futureproofing of services in north Wales in particular, especially whilst Betsi Cadwaladr still aren't at a place where we'd all want them to be as a health board.

I do, though, think, unfortunately, there are areas that need to be highlighted for continued improvement, because I think much of what's been shared this afternoon is, sadly, just too little, too late. We know that HEIW revised down its recommendations for how many student nurse places should be commissioned for the year we're now in, and the Welsh Government-approved final recommendation was 13 per cent lower than what was originally planned, and indeed 11 per cent lower than the previous year. Now, those are quite startling numbers, particularly when you look at the state of the Cardiff Labour-run NHS, with record waiting lists that, sadly, put Wales at the bottom of our UK-wide league table when it comes to health services. And it's a broader issue in that, last year, the target was just over 2,700 places to be filled, yet only 2,260 places were filled, so I think there are questions to be asked there about why those places weren't filled last year. Perhaps it's thanks to some poor management from the Government that the best and brightest potential healthcare professionals in Wales and across the UK are more reluctant, it seems, to practice their profession in Wales, which for me is very sad, because I think Wales is the best place to live and to work and to bring up a family. So, I wonder, Cabinet Secretary, how this plan and future ones will ensure that every spot is filled and that Welsh Government will be more ambitious instead of removing some of those much-needed training places?

Thank you very much, Sam. As you know, we were very financially challenged in the budget this year. It was because—. I was very grateful to my colleagues around the Cabinet table that they were willing to support health. We've seen an increase of 4 per cent in the NHS budget in Wales, and it's only gone up by 1 per cent in England. What I can tell you is that, actually, we incentivise, as you say, GP recruitment. I think that's very good, and it's been hugely successful. We give £20,000, which is not a small amount of money, to encourage GPs to train in those areas where previously we found it really hard to recruit to, and I'm really pleased that that has made a significant difference.

You're quite right, Sam, in relation to work-life balance. I do think that that is a major consideration. It's probably worth noting that, if you look at doctors, for example, there are far more women training to be doctors now than men. But also men are choosing not to work full time either, so we do have to take that on board, and I think it's probably worth noting that it's no cheaper to train somebody if they work part time. So, the cost to the taxpayer is actually more; because they're working part time, we have to employ more of them. So, that's a challenge. It's not a Welsh challenge—it's a challenge everywhere—but that is the reality. The world has changed since the days when you could call up your GP in the middle of the night and they would come trotting round with their little bag in the middle of the night. Those days are gone. So, we have lots of different things in place.

The work-life balance thing, though, I think is really important, and I'm really pleased that, in the negotiations we had, in particular with the health trade unions, in relation to the workforce implementation plan, one of the things that we committed to was an assumption in favour of granting flexibility if somebody requested it. That has made a huge difference already. We've still got a bit of a way to go, but that was what the people who chose to work in agency previously told us, that, 'We have more flexibility if we work for an agency.' Well, that's not true anymore—that assumption in favour of flexibility—and we have seen a massive reduction in the use of agency already. We've saved about £64 million just in the past year on agency.

Great that you support the opening of the new medical school in Bangor. I think if you just look, though—. You asked about nursing places. Well, of course, they scrapped the nurse bursary in England in 2016. They had to bring it back in, because it was such a disaster, but we, of course, never scrapped it in Wales. But you ask: what difference is it making? I’ll tell you what difference it’s making: the fact is that we have 12 per cent more medical and dental staff in Wales today than we did three years ago, that’s 892 of them; registered nurses, 10 per cent more than we did three years ago, 2,246 more; NHS consultants, 8 per cent more; scientific, therapeutic and technical staff, 15 per cent; 13 per cent more ambulance staff. This is all, I think, something that should be recognised and celebrated.

Well, as I’ve mentioned on numerous occasions in the Chamber, the health service is nothing without its ranks of committed staff working within it, but, unfortunately, there have been serious problems in terms of staff recruitment that have been prominent for many years. For example, Wales continues to suffer—whatever the Cabinet Secretary has just said—in terms of a shortage of nurses, with a shortage of around 2,700 nurses, while the number of GPs remains significantly lower than the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development average, which is why Plaid Cymru is calling for the introduction of 500 new doctors as part of our priorities for this election.

The situation is particularly acute in the context of cancer, where the NHS record in Wales on waiting times has been declining over a period of time, with the latest statistics showing that almost half of Welsh patients can’t start their treatment within the required 62 days. In terms of our oncology staff, we are 11 per cent below the required number, and, because of the demographic of this particular workforce, it’s estimated that that shortfall will go to below 41 per cent over the next four years. Strong investment in education and training in the sector is therefore crucial in order to ensure that the workforce is sustainable in accordance with the demands placed on our health services.

I note the fact that the Government has been able to maintain the same level of expenditure on this element of the health budget, as the Cabinet Secretary said, and that’s to be welcomed, but it’s also worth bearing in mind that this is the first year where the expenditure hasn’t increased, after almost a decade of ongoing increases.

Now, I fully recognise the huge financial pressures that continue to face the Government here, and that is why Plaid Cymru’s demand for fair funding for Wales is so crucial, and why the stance of the Labour leadership on this issue that we saw clearly in the interview with Jo Stevens last week shows a lack complete lack of understanding in terms of our health needs as a nation. Financial fairness for Wales isn’t just a slogan, but the key to creating a health system that can tackle the challenges of the twenty-first century, which includes a population that’s growing older at a faster rate than the rest of the UK. It was very disappointing therefore to hear the words of the First Minister during the leadership debate on Friday that he’d received everything that he'd requested in the Labour manifesto, which suggests clearly that he didn’t ask for financial fairness for Wales from a Labour Government that will come into power next week.

Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary therefore to confirm if a change from the current Barnett formula to a funding formula based on need continues to be a priority for the Welsh Government? And if so, why didn’t the First Minister make a stronger case for this so that it could have been included in the Labour UK manifesto?

Thank you very much, Mabon, and the fact that we have made those changes in terms of ensuring that people can be more flexible in their work, hopefully, will lead to a shift in terms of the number working as agency staff and they'll work directly for the NHS. That's already happening and, as I've said, £64 million has already been saved as a result of that.

You asked about the report regarding cancer and the number of people working in that field. It's true to say that there's still a gap, and that is a specific concern. Of course, that's partly because we've seen a significant increase in the number of people referred for a cancer investigation—a 50 per cent increase over the past three years. But what I can tell you is that the Royal College of Radiologists has stated that there is a major gap, 41 per cent, and that's come down now to 28 per cent; so, it has come down significantly. They also acknowledge that Wales has had the—

—largest proportional increase in oncologists across the four nations.

So, 12 per cent of an increase in Wales, 3 per cent in England. The number of oncologists has increased significantly, and there are many more in the pipeline, but these aren't people you can switch on overnight.

In terms of the priorities, we've made it clear, and it's been demonstrated clearly, that this is a priority for the Welsh Government, as was to be seen in the additional funding that we provided for health last year. It's true that we need to retain our workforce; that's vital. One of the ways of doing that is to ensure, if we can, that we get more people to train in that particular area.

It was a very special day last Friday, there was a scheme that had been arranged by the head of Glantaf school that brought students from across south Wales together, those who had an interest in working as doctors or dentists in future. The medical schools were there, and the dentistry school, to ensure that there are more opportunities for people from Wales to access places on courses in Wales.

So, we've seen a huge increase in terms of medicine, we're eager now to see that increase in terms of dentistry. If you train people from Wales, the chances are that they're more likely to stay here, and I think that's vitally important. But I'm very eager to do more work to see how we can retain those people who have been trained here or to ensure, if we're paying for the training, what we get in return as a nation.

I welcome the investment in north Wales at Wrexham University, the training already of allied health professionals, nurses, paramedics, physiotherapists and others. We have got the nursing bursary, unlike in England, and we're also paying social care workers the living wage. We also have a new medical school at Bangor, which is welcome, and social care pathways through Coleg Llandrillo, working with sector partners and employers, which is really welcome. Cabinet Secretary, this is the Welsh Government investing in action and bringing people into the healthcare workforce, which is really valued.

But we also must retain staff, and I welcome what you're saying about this flexibility, because that's what's been told to me, as well, by people there. They were just saying if they could do permanent nights or permanent days, job share, that would be really helpful. So, I really welcome that. But, Cabinet Secretary, if you had adequate funding and if we stopped talking down the NHS, as well, that surely would help with recruitment. I understand that, just before 2010, the uplift every year was 5.4 per cent into the NHS in the UK. Then, after 2010, it was 0.5 per cent and then it stagnated for four years up to COVID, and then, since COVID, we have to really invest to get things going again and reduce those waiting lists. So, that's my question to you: if we'd have had adequate funding and we have it now, will it really make a difference for you?

Thanks very much, and thank you, also, for drawing attention to the fact that it's not just Bangor in north Wales where we're training people for healthcare; Wrexham is really quite significant, and we've got to be absolutely clear that training people in the allied health professions and others is absolutely critical. What we're interested in in the NHS is getting a team. It's got to be a team approach, not just all about doctors and nurses; it's got to be about the broader team.

I absolutely endorse what you say around flexibility, so I'm really pleased that that's happening. I'd be interested to hear some feedback, if that's not happening. So, obviously, there will be times when it'll be really difficult to offer that flexibility, but there is an assumption in favour of flexibility. That's what we've asked health boards to take on board now. But you're quite right. At the end of the day, it's about funding—how much money do you put in? It's not just about funding, though, because, to be honest, I'm absolutely focused on getting much better efficiency into the system, as well; getting more for what we put in. So, we're doing a huge amount of work on productivity and efficiency and I think we need to go a bit further on that, as well.

But, you're right, if you look at the amount we put in compared to the EU average—. And if you remember, under Tony Blair, he said, 'I'm taking the country up to the EU average'—Gordon Brown was a bit upset, he stole his budget, do you remember that? He used a big word in there, as well. But that's exactly what happened; we came up to the EU average. We are now way below the EU average and that makes a difference. If they don't spend the money in England, we do not get a consequential in Wales and there is a result to that, there is a consequence, and the consequence is that we can't provide the kind of quality that they can provide on the continent, simply because we've seen that erosion over 14 years of a Tory Government.

Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. I want to begin by saying how important it is to ensure that Wales provides easy and affordable access to high-quality education and training of healthcare professionals, and we have to be realistic that we're not going to hire more healthcare professionals for our NHS without training and the educational opportunities being available. So, it's very disappointing that the £283 million allocated for the training of healthcare professionals last year has not been increased this year. And I'm disappointed that HEIW were forced to revise their nursing student places downwards.

It's important to bear in mind that not all student healthcare professionals are school leavers; many have been working in the NHS for years, but hit a ceiling when they need to return to education to progress to the next stage of their career—a glass ceiling, in layman's terms. For a working parent, this may not be a possibility. It would be nice, therefore, to see the Welsh Government explore other avenues of training that would allow healthcare professionals to upskill without putting their professional lives on hold for three years.

In north Wales, we need more specialist healthcare courses offered at local universities and we need to retain those professionals in the region. To take speech and language therapy, for example, Wrexham University offers 15 places—the smallest in the country—and this is not enough to keep up with the rising demand for specialists in that particular field.

Secondly, I would like to hear more from the Welsh Government regarding protected time for learning, as I hear regularly from those in the NHS that protected time for training is difficult to obtain, with busy practices and demands, and this would not require a large investment by the Welsh Government, but would pay dividends and would be easier to achieve through management processes and internal matters within health boards. So, I'd be grateful if you could respond to that point as well. Thank you.

Thanks very much. Of course, Gareth, you are one of those people who were trained in the NHS, I don't know if you were trained in Wales—

I was.

—but that is really good, and it's important, I think, that we keep on training the next generation. But, as you say, keeping people in the workforce is also important. What we did do is that we kept the same amount of money, and I think that that is not insignificant in light of the kind of pressures that we were up against in the budget last year. What I can tell you is that there will be more nurse training places available in 2024-25—2,400—than were actually filled last year—2,213. And we are hoping that the nurse bursary and the fact that we've removed the cap on the specific extra support that we give will help us to fill those places.

You're quite right, I think it's really important that we don't just have one channel for people to train. That's why I think growing your own locally makes a lot of sense. There are some great apprenticeship courses, there are some great programmes in places like Hywel Dda and Betsi, where they really are doing that. And, of course, things like the opening of the new nursing facility, which I know the Presiding Officer is very supportive of, in Aberystwyth will pay dividends. They are about to come out, and those people are already making a difference in their communities.

But, you're quite right, I know that there's a big appetite for protected time for learning. With the kind of pressures we see on the system, you can understand why sometimes that is not where it might be, but it's certainly one of those issues that the trade unions raise with us very often.

Cabinet Secretary, I support a family whose son, Elliot, now six years old, has Duchenne muscular dystrophy, a condition that impacts around 2,500 people in Wales, and they are part of around 170,000 people in Wales in total who have a rare disease. From supporting Elliot and his family, and speaking to experts more broadly about rare diseases, one of the common themes has been a lack of relevant education for health professionals. I am aware that some universities, such as Cardiff, have a rare disease teaching week for undergraduate medical health professionals, and I wonder if that model could be adapted for other undergraduate healthcare courses, such as nursing, midwifery and allied health professionals. I'm also aware that Wales Gene Park embed understanding about rare diseases through their living with genetic conditions education programme. This involves genetic counsellors and someone with lived experience of a rare or genetic condition sharing how the condition impacts them and their family. Do you agree that more awareness raising through sharing lived experience and embedding this kind of teaching across the curriculum would have huge benefits for health professionals, patients and their families?

Thanks very much, John, and thank you also for the work that you do with Elliot and his family. We are quite focused on rare diseases and, as you know, we have a special programme that really focuses on that. But, you're quite right, we do need to make sure that it's not just a small number of people who are looking out for that and who are expert in it. I think there are real opportunities for us to do a lot more when it comes to online learning. So, to try to encourage more people, scaling up is part of the issue that we really need to address within the NHS, and certainly I'll look into the rare disease teaching week and see if there's anything that we can learn from that. But, you're absolutely right, I think that there's a lot that healthcare workers can learn from simply listening to people with lived experience of that disease. And that is an important thing for us to do. It's important that Llais also gets involved with that. But, I'll take that away and see if there's something else we can do in that space. Diolch yn fawr.

I just wanted to pick up on what you said earlier about how it costs the same to train somebody for a part-time post as for a full-time one. It's an important point, but it's also important that the work that we ask people to do isn't so intense that people can't actually do full-time. And that's why a lot of GPs I know don't work five days a week, because it's relentless, the demand on GPs. They are left, at the end of the day, not having done any of the paperwork that goes with the follow-up of seeing somebody.

Two questions arise out of that. One is how good are, for example, GPs at doing multidisciplinary working, so that it's the diabetes nurse who sees the person with diabetes—a much better outcome there. But also, could you comment on the use of physician associates, which is happening a lot in England, where a lot of primary care services have been taken over by large private companies? They are basically kidding people into thinking that these people, who are semi-trained and simply don't have the training and experience to be able to spot the really serious conditions from the everyday—. Is this something that GPs are considering in Wales, given that a lot of people who have trained to be GPs in England are saying that they can't get jobs? Or is it something that we are going to resist?

Thanks very much. You are quite right, Jenny. I just think about how tiring it is to have a meeting every half an hour, and our GPs are asked to have a meeting every eight minutes. You can imagine the intensity of that, and how difficult that is. So, of course, we need to understand that. But, actually, a lot of them undertake different kinds of work. They don't just do GP work. They might do cluster work or some other work. So, actually, it's much more interesting. It's not all about being on the front line all of the time, and I don't think that that's a bad thing. In relation to paperwork, I am hoping that we are going to see a transformation in relation to that. I think that we have got to start using AI, so that they don't have to be writing everything down—you can be recording something, it can be transposed. The world is just about to change, and we need to make sure that we are ready for that change.

I'm not going to apologise for the fact that we have multidisciplinary teams in Wales. It's a good thing, and that includes physician associates. I think that it's really important to recognise that physician associates have been around for about 20 years in the NHS. In Wales, there are about 220 physician associates working in hospital and general practice, and I can tell you that I have spoken to a lot of GPs who wouldn't be without their physician associates. They do precisely what you are talking about, in terms of that multidisciplinary work. They may be experts in diabetes, for example. They can be taking bloods. They can do lots of things that take the burden away from the GPs. They are always managed by GPs. So, it is important that we make sure that we are very clear about what their role is, and know that they won't be taking over the work of GPs. But I don't think it's something that we should be closing off as an option here in Wales.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Item 7 is next, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 (Public Bodies) (Amendment) Regulations 2024. The Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice to move the motion—Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd, and I move the motion. The regulations before you today add a further eight named public bodies to section 6 of the Well-being of Future Generations Act, bringing the number of public bodies subject to the well-being duty in Part 2 of the Act to 56. This change will increase the scope and breadth of the sustainable development agenda in Wales, and strengthen the sustainable ways of working that are central to how our one Welsh public service works and responds to the challenges of today.

Since 2016, the public sector landscape in Wales has changed, and it is right that we assess whether additional public bodies warrant being made subject to the well-being duty. In 2022, we conducted a review of public bodies, in response to a recommendation from a Public Accounts Committee report in the fifth Senedd, and a recommendation in a statutory report under section 15(4) of the Act by the Auditor General for Wales.

Public bodies were assessed against the criteria used when the Bill was first being developed in 2014 to determine the 44 public bodies at that time. As set out in our consultation documents, certain public bodies do not meet the criteria, including advisory bodies, tribunals, inspectorate bodies, higher education institutions and further education corporations. The identity of the additional public bodies to be added by these regulations was consulted upon in 2022. The majority of respondents welcomed the move as timely, to create more consistency across the Welsh public sector. I'm grateful to officials from the eight public bodies, Audit Wales and the future generations commissioner's office for their support in the development of these regulations.

One requirement imposed on these bodies as a result of being listed under section 6 will be to set well-being objectives. The regulations provide these must be set by 31 March 2025 to bring the objective setting in line with the future reporting cycles applying to all existing bodies. Additionally, the regulations set out the timescales for the initial examinations of the additional public bodies by the Auditor General for Wales, namely at least once over an initial six-year period between 2024 and 2030, thereby aligning the examination cycles for both these additional bodies and the existing bodies. If these regulations are approved today, they will come into force on 30 June. Diolch.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Mike Hedges.

Diolch, Llywydd. The LJC committee considered these draft regulations on 10 June, and the report and the Welsh Government response are available on today's agenda. As the Cabinet Secretary has just outlined, these regulations add eight further persons to the list of public bodies in section 6(1) of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The Cabinet Secretary is therefore exercising a Henry VIII power available to the Welsh Ministers. Our report contains seven technical and two merits reporting points. Four of our technical reporting points are made because we consider the drafting appears to be defective or it fails to fulfil statutory requirements. The other three technical reporting points highlight matters where we consider form or meaning requires further explanation. For example, our fourth technical reporting point notes that, in regulation 2(3), it is unclear why the new paragraph that is inserted after paragraph (d) of section 6(1) of the 2015 Act is referenced as '(dd)', rather than '(da)'. We were concerned that the use of '(dd)' may create an expectation that there are already paragraphs (da) to (dc) in section 6(1). The Welsh Government has acknowledged all of our technical reporting points. In relation to the issue I've just mentioned, the Welsh Government is going to change the reference in paragraph 2(3) from 'paragraph (dd)' to 'paragraph (da)' before the instrument is signed by the Cabinet Secretary. Thank you.

The scope of the Act is being extended to include these further eight public bodies at a time when the office of the future generations commissioner has lost staff due to funding cuts and hasn't received any additional funding to support the additional public bodies, which it had estimated to cost £15,000 per public body. The commissioner has been forced to put in a new delivery model to do, as he put it to the Equality and Social Justice Committee, the best he can to support these public bodies with the resources he's got. He's said that there's a strong case for additional resources because of the breadth and importance of this agenda, which you outlined in your statement. So, Cabinet Secretary, how will you ensure that these new responsibilities do not undermine the effectiveness of the work of the commissioner? Are there any plans, with some perhaps different funding coming down the road from Westminster available to the Welsh Government in future, to ensure that that office is properly resourced? We've heard from the previous future generations commissioner that she didn't have enough money to do the job she was given. Now, with these extra responsibilities, it is concerning to think that perhaps we're not fully supporting this most important role. Diolch.

I would like to thank the Chair of the LJC Committee and Sioned Williams for their contributions today. I'll just pick up on a couple of the points. As the Chair said, I have responded to and we carefully considered all the points raised. We accepted one point and made the necessary change. In relation to Sioned Williams's point around the future generations commissioner, as she said, he is absorbing the cost to support the eight additional public bodies, and he did receive a 5 per cent budget reduction in this year's budget, but he did confirm to us he'd be able to support the eight additional public bodies within his existing budget. I'm really grateful to him for agreeing to this. What we have done in supporting him is make sure that officials work closely with him, but also we've convened a series of knowledge exchange sessions. They will continue in the year ahead, to help support the public bodies. So, I'm very grateful for those two points that have been raised. As I said in my opening remarks, the approval of this motion will create much more consistency across the public sector, which has changed a lot since the Act was brought in—I think it will be 10 years next year, since the Act came forward—and will really increase the scope and breadth of the sustainable development agenda here in Wales. I urge Members to approve the draft regulations.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed.

The next item will be the motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill. I call on the Counsel General to move the motion.

I move the motion.

The motion is moved. I have no other speakers for this item. Therefore, the proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No, there's no objection. Therefore, the motion under item 8 is agreed.

And that brings our work today to a close. Thank you very much.