Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Welcome back, all, to the committee. We're moving on to our second evidence session this morning, this time with local government representatives. I very warmly welcome Craig Mitchell, head of waste support with the Welsh Local Government Association, Paul Jones, who's strategic director with Newport City Council, and Ashley Collins, senior manager of waste and recycling services in Powys County Council. Welcome to the three of you. We'll go straight into questions, if that's ok, and I'll ask, as I did with the previous panel, what your views are on the targets set out in 'Beyond Recycling', and whether you feel that they are achievable. Who would like to go first?

Shall I go first, Chair? Thank you. I think the key point around 'Beyond Recycling' is that it was quite a pivotal moment. Prior to that, waste strategies were just that—they were waste strategies. 'Beyond Recycling' starts to look at the circular economy, starts to look at the social and economic benefits of the circular economy, and I think that's what gets our members interested and excited. I think the difficulty is that, as an activity, repair and reuse is quite difficult to measure, and it's quite difficult to understand things like the amount of carbon avoided by that activity, because with a lot of it, I think, as an earlier witness mentioned, it's quite difficult to know what is going on, and the level of activity.

In terms of the targets that are in 'Beyond Recycling', obviously around the reduction in waste, I think we're broadly on track with that, but the key point there is it's not always within the Welsh Government or local government's gift to organise that, it's a wider economic issue. We can influence the dial on that, and there's activity to do that, but it is about wider consumption patterns, and so things like EPR and DRS will play into that, I think. In terms of landfill, significant progress has been made in relation to that, and I think the joint endeavour between authorities and the Welsh Government around energy from waste and anaerobic digestion plants has been instrumental in allowing that to happen, so I think the progress is good on that.

In terms of the recycling target—and, obviously, we're moving into the year in which 70 per cent is the target—I think the majority of councils will be there, or thereabouts. Again, I think the key thing about those targets is you shouldn't just look at the target in isolation, there has to be a process behind it, there has to be activity. And for that, there's been funding, through the sustainable waste management grant, over a number of years, which has helped incentivise activity, particularly around recycling services. But also, with the support of WRAP and LP, and the work within WLGA, authorities are supported in terms of how they look at their services, how they plan their services, the likely impact of service change—and we mentioned Denbighshire earlier—and what that will deliver. The only downside with all of that is that if you have too much of a focus on a particular target, say recycling, then it does tend to corral behaviour around delivering on that target. So, we have to be very mindful of perverse incentives.

Thank you. We have two very different authorities, don't we? We have Newport and Powys, and I'd imagine that your experiences probably contrast greatly to each other's. Is there anything you want to add?

We're probably the two extremes, aren't we, in terms of—

Yes, which is good for us, because we need to hear that.

—the challenges that we have as an urban authority and the challenges that Ashley has of just even getting to households. So, yes, they are different.

I think, across the board, you'll see, in terms of the performance of local authorities, that there is a slight difference in performance in some of the more deprived areas. Looking at the tools that councils have used over the last decade or so, which have been around offering very frequent and very convenient doorstep collections and restricting residual collections, those are seen to be really successful, and you'll see from your papers that lots of authorities are now three or four-weekly. In Newport, we moved to three-weekly last year, which has been very successful for us. The challenge that we have as an urban authority is those levers aren't really available to you in areas of flats or HMOs and the like, because you can't put the same constraints onto that. That restrains us, to some degree, but also there are benefits as well: it's easier to arrange collections and the like. So, it's swings and roundabouts across the board.

I'd say, looking across all of Wales, you'll see in the last few years there's not been a great movement in the performance, but the focus was taken off a little bit due to COVID. Also there have been concerns about the impact of DRS and EPR and what that means to configure systems. So, I think there has been some delays in some of those service changes. It feels to me—I concur with Craig—that probably around half, or maybe a few more, will meet the actual 70 per cent. Wales as a whole will probably just be a little bit short, but not far. But the targets themselves have really driven authority behaviour, and I think it's indisputable that Wales is a real success story in this area of local government working with national Government to deliver these targets.

Thank you. Yes, Powys is a very different place to Newport. The biggest challenge we face is logistics and trying to pick up waste from 60,000 properties in a very big area. I always say, when driving down here, the vast majority of my journey—I live in the middle of Powys—was in Powys, so it just shows the scale of what we're up against as varying different authorities.

I think with the targets set in 'Beyond Recycling', the clue's in the title, isn't it, 'Beyond Recycling'. It's been very much in the past that we've all been chasing targets, so everyone looks for the heavy stuff, because that gets you over the line. But I think what now has worked quite well is the collaborative working between local authorities, with the Welsh Government, with WRAP, with Local Partnerships, all these people working together to get to these targets, and they are very, very challenging. The 70 per cent one that we're now on to is—. I'll be absolutely honest, I'm not quite sure we're going to be quite there in Powys; we won't be very far behind. But it's how we work with our partners to make those small changes, because all the low-hanging fruit has gone, it really has.

We're looking at getting that last bit out of the residual waste, and I think it was mentioned earlier that there's still a lot of food and other recyclables in that residual waste. So, it is there, but it's how we just get to that next step, which, I think, working together in terms of the publicity that WRAP do, the support we get from the Welsh Government, which is a lot in terms of local authorities—. I did work in England till about 15 years ago, and the difference is quite striking, coming over the border. It is a lot easier, I think, with fewer authorities. Clearly, it is much easier to work together.

I'm going off topic, but a good example was in COVID, when we all came together with the Welsh Government and managed to keep going throughout the entire thing, keeping those recycling levels high. So, yes, they're very challenging. It's good that it's recognising that it is 'Beyond Recycling', because that's not the be-all and end-all; we've got to look higher up the waste hierarchy. So I think, yes, it's challenging and it certainly focuses minds in local authorities. I don't think there's a single authority that isn't trying very, very hard to get there. So, if they don't, it won't be for the want of trying.

Thank you—really useful opening remarks there. I did ask earlier about whether there'd be benefit in interim targets, above what already we have in place. Do you have any thoughts about that? Because if targets do drive behaviour, then would interim targets not help, in that respect?

Obviously, the interim targets have helped and we've all moved up slowly along those lines. I think the challenge now is what's left beyond the 70 per cent. Looking at Newport's composition, for example, half of that currently doesn't have a market or is unrecyclable, and 25 per cent of that is food waste. Wales has a really good performance on food waste; it's comparable to anywhere around, so a real success story. But still we've got to get across that barrier to get that last bit of food waste off, and then can local authorities control that 50 per cent that's left, that doesn't have a market? It feels like we're moving more into a territory where actually some of the levers are other players and actors. As Ashley said, we've got all the heavy stuff out, we've got really high capture rates of glass, paper, cans, all the dry recyclables, but with what's left now, we won't be able to do this alone; it'll be a much wider mix of players.

That's an interesting point. Thank you. We'll move on to Janet.

Good morning. Is Wales on track to meet the 2025 targets set out in 'Beyond Recycling', and what are the main challenges for local authorities in meeting statutory recycling targets?

Shall I start on that?

Yes, please.

I think, as we've kind of indicated, I think we're broadly on track. There will be some authorities who probably fall a little bit short. I think part of that is, as Paul intimated, around COVID. I think some of the investment and service change that we would expect to have come into place have been delayed, so there's some delay around that.

I think the feedback from authorities is, in terms of the progress in recycling percentages, once you've dealt with the low-hanging fruit, you are getting into areas where it's becoming more and more difficult for each percentage of performance that you improve. So, I think some of the challenges are—and, again, as Paul set out—what is left for us to target, is there a market for it, and how do we actually influence people's behaviours? Because, again, in the first session, I think the whole issue of segmentation and different people's behaviours and motivations come into this. So, something that we're very aware of is getting the right message to the right person in the right way is really important with all of this to try and hit those different behaviours and activity, but, clearly, that is more difficult and more costly than a leaflet to every household, which is typically what would have been done 10, 15 years ago.

Can I just ask on the back of that how effective a stick is Welsh Government fines for not meeting targets?

I think it has been quite effective, but that's because it's actually been quite a soft stick, in that the fines are there and they know there's a backstop, but I think what's been welcomed is actually a much more collaborative approach, to say to a local authority who's missed the targets, 'Right, how have you done that, and what can we do to help?', and that has been the approach across the board generally, and I think that has been welcomed. So, the WLGA and WRAP have supported councils that have just been short to look at how they can help, how they can change the services, and some of it is around timing. So, it seems pointless to fine an authority if they've got a plan and it's just a matter of timing, but it does act as a—

And you're taking money away from the actual implementation.

Yes, exactly; it's coming away from cash-strapped services. So, I think as a soft stick it's much more welcome than a firm backstop.

Okay. Fine. Ashley.

A few issues I would raise there, really, in terms of the challenges to get there. One is budgets, which we have to mention, because, whilst we do get a lot of financial support from the Welsh Government it doesn't cover our complete service, and, as a waste manager, I'm up against people in social services, highways, potholes—it's just as big an issue to people—and they're all crying out for funding. Now, this does mean that we have to make difficult decisions like, for example, in Powys, we've had to put up the price for garden waste collections. We've had to close, in the past, the household waste recycling centre. We're looking at doing other restrictions now, just because we've got to, whilst maintaining that recycling rate, actually still balance our budgets. So, if we were, for example—we haven't—but if we were to double the price for garden waste, would we lost half our customers, and then that tonnage? But we have to balance that out. So, that's a major issue.

Another is political will on a very local level, because, when we look at doing less frequent residual collections, they're never very popular with the electorate, although more popular than you might imagine, but there's always a very vocal minority that think it's just impossible to do, and of course all the politicians have got to come together to agree that, and I'm talking on a local level there.

But one of the biggest things that we're up against is getting the infrastructure in place, and this is both on the macro level in terms of where material goes, but also in terms of what councils can do with the material they collect. The good old days of waste management, where you just had a yard and a few bays and everything went there, just doesn't happen anymore; we're having to look at all of our transfer facilities to spend an awful lot of money to get them up to speed just to get through the NRW permitting regime, which is there for a very good reason, of course, but it does add a massive challenge for local authorities, both in terms of having the facilities available, but also the capital to develop them, but, again, working with Welsh Government in terms of putting bids in for that capital so that we can do that. So, they are very aware of the problems we've got, but it is a long-term thing as well, because we've just been through the process with an NRW permit, and it took four years to get one. Now, that's a long time, and we could have missed another target by then.

Indeed, that is a long time. Okay, thank you very much for that. Okay, we'll move on, then, to Rhianon.

Thank you very much, Chair. How are local authorities involved in work to update the collections blueprint, and what would you like to see in that updated blueprint to help local authorities achieve those recycling targets?

Okay. If I'll pick that up first, it's our understanding that it is very early in the process of redrafting the blueprint. I think there's been certainly one external meeting with stakeholders that we were involved with. And, really, at this point, what Welsh Government are talking about is a two-stage process. So, the first stage is the fact that the blueprint hasn't been updated for a number of years. So, the world has moved on, technology has moved on, and the materials that we deal with have moved on. So, the first iteration is around looking at what is out there, what is good practice, trying to capture that within the blueprint, and the evidence that sits behind that. So, for example, we've provided information about all 22 local authorities and their current services, and how they're configured and how they approach that. So, that's been factored into what the blueprint will be doing.

In terms of future iterations, what we understand is, clearly, it has to go beyond the recycling service or the waste service. So, we're starting to talk about what infrastructure do we need for 'Beyond Recycling' for the circular economy. So, again, 18 out of 22 local authorities have a reuse shop, for example. So, it's that kind of initiative that shows how we are supporting the circular economy that needs to be factored into the future iterations of the blueprint. And related to that there will be some discussion and conversations about targets—even if they're indicative—in relation to repair and reuse, so that we understand the volume of activity and how we increase the volume of that activity, because, otherwise, we're just doing things because we think they're good things. We need to have a better structure and a business plan behind it, and that activity, I think, as intimated earlier, has to be sustainable, in terms of what it delivers and how it delivers it.

And is there an expectation in terms of when this is going to be published? What is your cognisance of that?

I think part of the issue is, because extended producer responsibility and the deposit-return scheme aren't fully clarified yet, there's still a lot of work ongoing, and they will probably have fairly fundamental impacts upon aspects of waste services. So, I would imagine that it will be in tandem with, particularly, the roll-out of extended producer responsibility.

So, another consequence of or another impact of the delay of the DRS, for example, would be that maybe this would be later than anticipated.

It would, but I would say that the work to go to improve services is still ongoing—

Sure. It's not something that you just conjure up anyway. Yes, okay.

I was just going to add that I think the uncertainty, or understanding of the impact of EPR and DRS, and, then, probably, how we handle film in the collection element of the collections blueprint, those are going to be the three biggest challenges. And it's very difficult to know the make-up of the waste streams you will be collecting. I doubt we would be moving away from wanting weekly separated collections, but it's what that feels and looks like. But I also concur with Craig—I think much more of it now needs to be around those other waste systems, particularly around reuse, and you touched on it in the earlier session. There's a lot of room to improve there, and that's in line with the spirit of the 'Beyond Recycling' approach. And so, yes, how we progress on reuse as well, I think, will be really important.

Okay, thank you.

And we've touched upon the delay to implementing EPR. What are your views on the panel in regard to the impacts of that delay? And then, also, if you could just discuss your understanding of the role of local authorities within EPR, and what is your understanding around that role. Obviously, it's not there yet, so it's more of a finger in the wind, but what is your first impression? I don't know if you want me to go over that again, because it was quite a long—.

What do you anticipate your role being?

So, obviously, I think we welcome extended producer responsibility, particularly as another source of funding, and that funding being more closely aligned with the producers responsible for the waste in the first place. So, it aligns with the polluter-pays principle. So, the delay has been unfortunate. We'd like to see that out. I think, again, the impact of that is going to take a bit of time before it make its way back to the producers in terms of design. Hopefully, that will encourage reuse, but there are sometimes unintended consequences. A lot of the weight-based targets around packaging have actually led to lighter weight packaging that is less recyclable. So, you know, the business will report, 'Okay, we've a 25 per cent reduction in the weight of our packaging,' which is great, but now you can't recycle it. So, you've got to be careful with some of those incentives. I think the concern from local government is around how the payment mechanism is going to work, the transparency of that. Myself, I've had some involvement in some of the testing of that, and I do think there's a risk that it's overly complex. We've got a method of distributing funding for local authorities in Wales currently, and we've generated what could be quite an onerous administrative task for local authorities to prove, and again some potential perverse incentives. So, if a local authority is collecting refuse weekly—we've discussed widely why that has a negative impact on recycling—they could be paid more for that. And so, you mitigate some of the environment policy. It doesn't seem totally aligned. But the principle of extended producer responsibility is welcome, as is potentially the extra money.

Before, Rhianon, you come back, Ashley, did you want to add anything on the blueprint or EPR as well?

On the blueprint, it was purely about the infrastructure again, in terms of, if all these other things are added in, that is—and I know it's coming down to real basics here—another bay in a transfer station, which you may not be able to fit in terms of fire prevention management plans and permits and that kind of thing. But it's good that local government and, I know, WLGA have all been involved with this, but in terms of involving the wider local authorities as well, in terms of what they're doing and what they need, which I think Welsh Government have got a pretty good handle on, because of us working with the officers in Welsh Government, so I think they're aware of what's happening there.

Okay, thank you. Sorry, Rhianon.

So, I think in terms of—. No, no, that's fine. In terms of—. You mentioned contradictory tensions or perverse impacts in terms of the design. What has your involvement as the WLGA been in the EPR scheme? And I'm presuming, within the time context that we have, that those could be ironed out, in terms of contradictory pushes and pulls within it.

Yes. With Welsh Government's backing, the WLGA are on the scheme administrator steering group. That's the body that is producer and local authorities and DEFRA, Welsh Government and the devolved administrations coming together to try and plan how EPR will work. Without getting into a lot of the detail, there are some issues there. One is around the modulated fees that producers will pay. They haven't been published yet, so we're not sure how that will drive producer behaviour, and, picking up Paul's point, it means that we don't know what will be coming through in future waste streams, so that's a difficulty. Authorities will be paid on the basis of efficient services. Now, that in itself is a whole debate, and the producers are pushing back on what is efficient, but that is primarily being done on the basis of modelled costs across the UK, where authorities will be put into certain groupings based on deprivation and rurality. And then, within those groupings, they will be paid on their residual frequency and their kerbside recycling method. So, I think that's Paul's point of if you currently have weekly residual, which is more expensive, you'll be paid what that costs, so you can see how that almost is factoring in a perverse outcome.

So, really for us, it's what happens after year 1 and year 2 and year 3 on how that efficiency element is understood and how it's rewarded. I know, again, in discussions with Welsh Government, that they are very keen to explore whether that can reward higher rates of recycling in some shape or form, and I think there are some difficulties in terms of how the statutory instrument is drafted that will enable that. And the second element of it is around effectiveness. So, this is where an assessment of the effectiveness of the service is made, and the scheme administrator can reduce the payment to the authority by up to 20 per cent. But prior to that there will be a dialogue that will develop improvement actions to improve the service to make it efficient. So, I think there are a couple of things there. One is that the scheme administrator, at least initially, will be part of DEFRA. So, you will have DEFRA discussing with local government in Wales their services, their effectiveness and what they’re delivering. Now, Welsh Government will be very central to that conversation, but that is an issue that some of our members are picking up.

And then the second issue is, what is the definition of 'effectiveness'? And we don’t know that yet. It is likely to be around the amount of packaging that is actually recycled. But until we see that measure, we don’t know. So, we’re likely to see Welsh authorities grouped together, and what we would think are very different authorities, but they will be getting the same payment through the EPR. And we would imagine that most Welsh authorities would do very well on the effectiveness, but there isn’t a reward element to it, there's only a negative, so if you’re not meeting that, then it gets reduced.

Yes, okay, there's a lot there. Thank you for that—that's really, really useful. Okay, we'll move on to Janet, then.

Thank you. To what extent are local authorities prioritising the use of sustainable low-carbon materials in construction and following a sustainable materials procurement hierarchy?

I'd say that it's an area that is fast developing. I feel that it’s where recycling was a decade or so ago and is on catch up. I think in terms of sustainability impacts, there’s a lot of improvement on net zero in operation, but not so much focus has been on the embedded carbon in construction materials themselves. So, we’re still seeing the vast majority of public sector buildings being built out of steel, not so much out of wood, and even where that steel is reused or recycled steel, I think there’s a long way to go on that.

The public sector, more widely—the procurement route is a good tool into that, and it has been effective in driving some other behaviours, but I think we’ve got a long way to go. It’s probably worth pointing out—. So, in terms of—. If you think of the school building programme, that’s a big one that local government is heavily involved in—the sustainable communities for learning programme, I think it’s called now; it’s called something different every week—Welsh Government recognise the additional costs of making those buildings energy efficient and they apply a premium that was in addition to the original funding criteria for local authorities. So, local authorities can crack on knowing that those costs are going to be picked up. What I don’t think has made its way into funding formulas for grants, and in terms of how we deliver, is that embedded carbon, and that’s where we need to make a shift now.

Interesting, okay—

Sorry, just very briefly, there's obviously an awful lot of work in terms of procurement and supporting procurement, and within the WLGA, there is a Welsh Government funded programme around climate change, which is supporting authorities to move towards net zero by 2030, and there are four elements within that. One is land use, the second is procurement, the third is buildings and the fourth is fleet. So, it's looking at each of those areas and looking at what the opportunities are. And there has been additional procurement advice developed for authorities around how they can consider carbon in terms of the procurement process. So, I think, as Paul intimated, it's a journey and a journey that we need to move quickly and more rapidly on, but there is work ongoing to try and support that.

And the last point is, again, around procurement, the development of social value in terms of understanding procurement. So, we have the social value portal, and in Wales there's a range, a menu of different attributes that you can seek from procurement, so that is looking to move beyond the point of procurement to the actual management and life of that building or asset or entity and having a measure for that. So, those 46 measures have been amended for a Welsh context to reflect the well-being of future generations Act. So, it’s again another resource that authorities can use and apply to procurement to enable them to look at it through a slightly different lens, because, clearly, the most economic economically advantageous tender, which is what we used to do in the past, doesn’t get you to the point of understanding what the building is, how you use it, the embedded carbon and more importantly, perhaps, how you deconstruct that building at the end of life, because you can build that into the design process, and there are clever tools that enable you to basically have a map of the building and different materials and what you may be able to get out of that building, but that’s very important that that’s done at the beginning, because if you come to the building at the end of life, typically, it’s very difficult to know what’s in there and how to deal with it.

Okay. Thank you much. Thank you. Delyth.

Thank you. Good morning, everybody.

I want to ask you firstly, please, about the effect of regulatory requirements and changes to the types of materials that are being processed. How able to adapt would you say local authorities are to that, building on top of what you've already said, and do you feel that local authorities have been given adequate time and support to prepare for the effects of regulatory changes, please?

Shall I make a start on that?

Yes, sure.

If anyone wants to jump in, feel free. I think there are a range of issues there, and I think I’d probably use a couple of examples in relation to that. One is the issue around persistent organic pollutants, particularly in soft furnishings, and what we saw there was emerging evidence that EA and NRW were putting together in terms of the harmful impact of what essentially were fire retardant chemicals in soft furnishings that were used in past years. Now, the difficulty is, for the local authority, getting those soft furnishings into the waste stream. You then are faced with the problem of how to deal with it. And what NRW naturally do as the regulator is start to issue regulatory position statements telling us what we can and can’t do with that material. So, for example, with that example, there are issues about how you collect the material and not have cross-contamination with other items on the vehicle, so there's impact on bulky waste; there’s what you do with it at the depot and how you store it and make sure that nothing leaches out into the immediate environment; there are issues about if it’s damaged, it can only go to energy from waste, and we’re lucky that Trident Park and Parc Adfer are both licensed to deal with this material, but you basically, have to break up that sofa, or whatever it is before it goes, and you have to do that under certain conditions so that the workforce are safe. So, the issue is all of that came in fairly rapidly. And you saw the situation—I think it was Cambridgeshire in England who brought in—. They stopped bulky waste collections because they quite simply didn’t have a means of dealing with this, so that’s really problematic.

So, another example would be carpets, and, again, the position around carpets has changed fairly recently. Shredded carpets can’t be used in an equestrian setting, so what that means is there’s not really a market now for carpets because of, again, the materials that are in there and the chemicals that are in there. And I think a number of authorities have recently gone to a procurement to try and find an outlet for carpets, and they basically had nobody bidding for that opportunity. So, as an authority, you’re collecting carpets, you have no means of recycling them, so the only outlet there is probably energy from waste. That impacts on your costs and it impacts on your ability to meet targets. It’s a regulatory change that was beyond the remit of the authority to be able to do anything about.

Now, just on that front—sorry to labour the point—we have instigated regional meetings with NRW and the Cabinet lead Members, and that’s based on the corporate joint committee structure, so there are four of them and they will be regular meetings. And the idea of that is to enable NRW to be telling us about these things more in advance, so we see the pipeline of issues, and we’re able to both feed back what the possible implications of them are, and to have an understanding of how we might respond to it. A good example is around wood waste, for example, and NRW came to us and said, 'Well, we're thinking that you might need to separate out different types of wood waste at HWRCs.' So, we came back and said, 'Well, here are the number of HWRCs, here are the issues around why we can't do that very easily or there's an additional cost.' Effectively, you would have to have a member of staff policing those skips permanently to tell people where to put the material. So, it's that kind of dialogue that we need to be having at an earlier stage that impacts dramatically on local services.

Before Delyth comes back on that, just to welcome Carolyn Thomas, who joins us.

Thank you.

And to thank Rhianon Passmore, who was substitute for you. I believe maybe Rhianon is leaving the meeting now as well. Carolyn, of course, has previous experience, very much hands-on, from when she was a member of Flintshire council, with a very relevant portfolio to our discussion today. So, welcome. Sorry, back to you, Delyth.

Diolch. Thank you very much. Welcome back, Carolyn. I wanted to ask you next about upskilling prevention and reuse. Now, Craig, you've already mentioned the use of reuse shops, and, Paul, you touched on the importance of promoting this as well. So, on top of what you've said, would anyone like to add anything further, please, on the role that local authorities have in promoting these behaviour changes?

I think, as outlined in your report pack, there are a lot of really good success stories from across local authorities and in partnership, particularly, with the third sector, that we can point to. The reality of it, if you look at the waste stream, though, is despite all the brilliant work, we've only scratched the surface, and we do need quite a cultural shift. People often say, 'Oh, yes, we will. I'm really keen to use second hand', or 'I am open to using this, that and the other.' The reality on the ground is less so.

I think the problem that you've got is both cost and convenience. It's so easy, I can click a button on my phone, and Amazon will deliver me a replacement tomorrow, I don't have to go outside my house or take a pair of trousers down to a shop. We're quite lucky in Newport in that we've got some good facilities. It's that convenience barrier and also the relative cost is—. I had my washing machine repaired a couple of weeks ago, that was nearly £200, and that's fine, but the relative benefit for that—you can see why people don't do that.

If you look wider across reuse and repair, it's actually a relatively modern phenomenon, this consumption of stuff and quick replacing. You go back 40 or 50 years ago—I've got small children, the youngest is still in nappies, she's wearing reusable nappies, but she's pretty much the only one in her nursery, but disposable nappies have only been around 40 years. Now, I look at my residual waste stream in Newport, and 10 per cent of it is disposable nappies. So, changing that culture I think is going to be as big a barrier, if not a bigger barrier than the infrastructure. We need the two things to match to get that use.

Ashley.

I think local authorities have quite a big part to play in that in terms of their awareness and promoting the waste hierarchy, because reuse is clearly above—well, avoid at all is at the top, but then reuse. So, it is something that we try and do before we go on to the recycling side of things. We do try and provide these at the HWRCs; it seems a logical thing to put a reuse shop at HWRCs, and have it somewhere near the entrance where people can drop things off before they even get to any of the recycling and disposal skips. The problem with that is space on the sites, and this is a real challenge for local authorities. If you've got a huge site and no limits, that's fine, you can have a separate area for the reuse shop, because people do really like them, and they will come to the site purely for that reason. But that does mean, if you've got a small site, no-one else can actually get in to use it. So, sometimes, it works better where things are collected on site and then taken to an alternative shop at a different site. But one of the biggest things with that, though, is that behaviour change of having it there so that people can see it, even if they don't use it.

Something else that has been done by a number of local authorities in the south is a reuse directory or a repair directory, which is online, so, say you've got your washing machine or whatever, you can look and see where there are people locally who can actually repair that. I think it's something that local authorities do have a quite a bit of involvement in. It is very much led by the third sector, and they often work with local authorities on the site, so you will actually have a third sector organisation operating that site within the local authority site, which works very well in terms of a partnership. They have much more of the expertise to do it than the local authorities themselves or private contractors.

Thank you very much for that. Finally from me, could you please talk me through what your opinion would be about the need to—? What would your view be, then, on introducing legislation to ensure that the separated key recyclables are banned from energy recovery or from landfill?

Shall I pick that up? I think we've had previous legislation that does much the same in relation to municipal waste and certain elements of that are around biodegradable waste. The issue that we've always had is that, clearly, it is very difficult to know what is in people's black bags and we're not in a position to be able to interrogate that, although I think the City and County of Swansea did some work on actually looking at what was potentially in people's black bags and trying to engage the public on that side. So, I think, from our point of view, it's really more about the messaging to the public that this material shouldn't be in your black bag, it should be elsewhere and there are easier ways of dealing with a lot of this material. And therefore, it's around communication and engagement, rather than a big stick to hit a householder with, because they've got one item in their black bag. So, I think it is useful but the practical process of implementation is such that it's very difficult to move beyond that engagement and communication side of things.

Yes, it's about the messaging. I'll just use the example of the recent workplace regulations, which everyone will be familiar with, coming into play. Prior to that, it was that businesses should recycle, they know it's a good thing to do, they're encouraged softly, softly. And now, we've had the rules where they must recycle and they're not allowed to put it in there. So, in our collections in the last two months, we've seen a near tripling of the amount of recycling we've been getting from businesses. But again, practically, we don't know what's in their residual wheeled bins, we're not climbing in there looking for a can at the bottom—at least, I don't think we are—because that isn't practical. But it is that messaging, that resetting of the tone that I think does help and has a role to play in the broader strategy.

I'd agree with that. Also, we can't look through every bit of waste, that's just an impossibility, but we can contribute to that through reducing the residual waste that we will collect, so whether that's fortnightly, three-weekly, four-weekly, a restricted amount that can be put out. Because at the end of the day, if people haven't got that capacity, they've got to remove that material. This is one of the biggest drivers in terms of getting recycling up. They're not going to start putting a load of wood, which is banned, into a bin if they can't fit it in. So, at that point, they're going to have to take it to an alternative facility, such as the household waste recycling centres, where it can be recycled.

We also have, at HWRCs, black bag sorting—well, some authorities have black bag sorting on the gate, so they will make people go through that black bag so that they recycle everything that they can. In Powys, we actually just turn them away and say, 'Don't come back until it's sorted'. And after a while, people just know that that's what they have to do and it's absolutely fine. There, you have some control over what is banned from landfill or incineration, but at the end of the day, you're never going to know what's in the bottom of that wheeled bin. And the same applies, as Paul said, to the workplace recycling regs.

But the intention is there, and I think that's one of the most important things with these regulations. We're never going to—. Well, I hope NRW won't fine us for having a bottle top in a residual bin. I mean, they technically could. But I think it's working with the various partners to try and just get the recycling—that's what the intention of it is. And I think it's the same with the bans. It's never going to be that easy to implement, but there are a lot of measures that we can take to get there, I think.

Thank you.

Thank you. Can I, at this point, welcome Joyce Watson, as well? We'll get a microphone to you in a moment, once we can. Carolyn, did you want to come in on any issues? I know Janet would like to come in with one further question, and I'm sure you have a couple of things that you would like to raise.

Yes. Do you want to ask Janet first?

No, let's come to you first and then we'll come to Janet to conclude.

Can I give my apologies? Joyce and I had to sub at another meeting, and I really wanted to talk in this today, so thank you for letting me speak. If you've covered anything already, let me know.

I don't know if you've touched on the value of kerbside sort as opposed to co-mingled. The blueprint is kerbside sorted, so could you just comment on that?

To try to get targets increased, the messaging—. Is WRAP looking, and the Welsh Government, at going back to messaging? Because post COVID I know some local authorities are struggling again to get their targets back up. So, your thoughts on getting that messaging back out again now to get people recycling, post COVID.

Regarding the deposit-return scheme, I believe, in the trial, many people put it in the kerbside sort boxes. Is that adding extra processes for you, collecting it as local authorities, to go through what's got a barcode on? You're having to go through whatever's in your stream there that has been collected, and they're going to have to find that barcode. Is that adding a lot of extra processes for you? And—

Let's respond to those three first, and then we'll come back.

Okay, sorry.

It's okay. We've got 15 minutes; we've got enough time.

Just to pick up on messaging, I think there's always more that can be done. I'm not convinced that's wholly the reason why, if you see over those COVID years, perhaps, that performance has flatlined. I think we touched on earlier that the eyes and the management at the council were otherwise focused. It's not that we're all just thinking about waste all of the time, although some of us may be. Really, in terms of the big changes that are needed to increase recycling, they probably didn't happen for about two years, and then you're restarting that.

There's also a bit of a natural decline. I think we touched on earlier the lightweighting of materials. We've actually seen packaging reduce in weight and recyclability. So, if you do nothing, it does tend to drift down a bit. Also, in terms of composition, if you just look at 10 years ago, there was almost twice as much paper in the waste stream than there is now. Councils can be recycling as effectively as they were now, but that will knock a little bit off performance. So, I think it's probably a combination of all of those factors, rather than just messaging, but, obviously, messaging does help as well.

I'll make a quick comment on the blueprint; Craig probably has more to say on it. In terms of kerbside versus co-mingled, there are still some authorities that are doing co-mingled and swear by it, and are getting very high recycling rates from it. I think with the blueprint and the kerbside collections, we are getting a good-quality material, which we are able to sell, which does offset the costs of collecting it. So, it's something we're doing in Powys, and I think one of the things that people say is, 'If you do it in a rural area like Powys, you can do it anywhere'. It does have its challenges, and we have collection points in rural areas and things like that, but it has upped the quality of the material, which we're then able to sell.

That brings me on to the next point about the DRS. From a local authority waste management point of view, DRS in Wales, I think, will have a limited impact. There is the litter side of it, and I accept that, but in terms of what people are already doing at the kerbside, they're already recycling. We're getting the vast majority of this material at the kerbside. Adding in the layer of having to take that material back to a central point is an inconvenience, I feel, for a lot of people, which is why, when the opportunity to do the digital DRS trial came up, I was quite happy to host it in Powys. We did it in Brecon, and it wasn't an exact trial of a deposit-return scheme, because it was on the basis of a reward, because we couldn't charge upfront. In this case, there was a whole team, and they weren't from the council, they were from the Digital DRS Alliance, who were actually stickering literally millions of bottles with these codes, which were then scanned.

In terms of the inconvenience for the householder, yes, you had to go 'bleep' here and 'bleep' on your box, because there were two different codes, and then there was an element of trust that you had, then, recycled, because the thought was that you weren't going to bleep it there and there, and then throw it over a hedge—why would you? There was some, actually, sampling done that proved that those materials did go through that process. So, in terms of the householder, yes, it's an added inconvenience there, but is it any more so than having to take that back to the supermarket? Again, it depends on how much you produce of your cans, your bottles and the like. But we come around every week and we collect it from your doorstep. People do that; why would they want the inconvenience of having to take it back? So, I think a digital scheme can work as well as a return scheme with the DRS.

In terms of the impact on our crews, it's absolutely nothing, and that was something I was very keen to say. We can't have our people at the kerbside having to scan every bottle; it just wasn't going to work. There was very little impact on them. So, from a local authority waste management point of view, it didn't really impact on our service at all; it will then just go to our transfer station. And not only that, but we will get the income for that material, and that's one of the big issues around DRS. That's going to take a big wodge of income from local authorities, and potentially affect their recycling level. So, I think the digital scheme was a success. It's still a lot of work to do—and I know industry aren't so keen on it, because of the fact of having to get these individual QR codes on all these various containers. But from a local authority point of view, that worked very well, I think.

Before I invite Craig, Joyce, you wanted to make a comment. And then we'll come to Craig, then we'll come back to you, and then we'll come on to Janet for the last question.

I wanted to link on-the-go recycling into that question.

Just another thing that might affect your value of what's recycled, and that's the waste bins you put out for the general public. What results are you seeing from those that have changed those to clearly marked, clearly defined recyclables and general rubbish?

We're talking about on-the-go stuff like public bins.

I'm particularly interested in this because I represent an area that has a high percentage of tourists, and we have to put extra bins out because of that. So, I'm just wondering whether that's impacting. Because it will count towards your final figure of what's recycled and what's not recycled.

Can we—? Well, go on, then, if you wish. I just wondered, because that takes us to a slightly different area we can discuss, if we can maybe capture from Craig a response to Carolyn first, and then we'll address the question about the on-the-go.

Just very briefly, obviously, materials markets are very volatile, and what really matters is the quality of the recyclate that you're offering to the market. As Ashley says, there are different ways of getting there. The kerbside sort typically does produce very good-quality material that you can get a better price for.

The only thing I was going to mention is, going back to packaging EPR, there will be a calculation for netting off your income from recyclate. So, they will take an average cost, or income, and attribute that to the number of tonnes of recycling that you have that's packaging EPR. So, if you've got really good-quality material, which you're getting a higher price for than that standard price, then you get better income. So, again, we're hopeful, in the Welsh context, that that might benefit us.

Right. On we go.

Just talking from personal experience in Powys, we have been putting out these dual bins where we just normally had the one litter bin. So, you do have the one side—. And we tend to have cans and plastics, because that's one of the main things that is out for on-the-go recycling. It's difficult to manage the quality of what goes into them. Of course, we don't generally have too many dog waste bins now, because we just combine them, because it all goes into the same place, and it's actually better for our crews to empty them with the general residual waste, but, of course, then, that'll end up in with the other bins. There's a big push on awareness with that, but, again, you're looking at, when it's tourists, of course, it's not just your own residents, who are much easier to get to, you've got to get that much bigger picture. So, it is a challenge, and we do try and recycle what we can, but it is limited in terms of the contamination of those particular bins.

I think that experience is reflected across the country. We get a lot of people who've tried on-the-go bins, but contamination has often overwhelmed those schemes, and even very successful schemes struggle with high levels of contamination.

Wherever I go, they're all different. Is there no discussion happening about maybe an element of consistency nationally, across Wales particularly, so that at least wherever I am I know the drill?

Can I come in on that? Again, under packaging EPR, there would be an element for binned litter. So, there would be payments to authorities around that, and there is very likely to be a discussion around what level of service is expected for those payments. I'd imagine that that will form part of that discussion: you're receiving these payments from producers, therefore there's an expectation that there'd be a certain level of service. The only issue there is, obviously, there's quite a lot of infrastructure that's out there, and it will take quite a while to move towards a more consistent approach.

Can I—?

Very briefly, because we've only got five minutes left, and I know Janet is being very patient.

Sorry. It was just regarding the on-the-go recycling. I think that's why DRS would come forward and be in its element, and do more good, because many people already are doing kerbside sorting, and it's not of benefit. But when you come to a place like Cardiff and you see more rubbish around than in north Wales, where many people are, you know, putting it in the kerbside—. So, I think that's something that needs to be built on, really, and I think that's why. But do you agree—it's been paused and there'll be a four-nation approach—with the DRS, that we need to work together in a four-nation approach?

I think consistency across Wales should probably be helpful. It doesn't feel like we're going in that direction currently, does it, so—.

Yes. Okay.

There we are. Great. Okay. Thank you very much. Right, Janet—I've built you up now for a long time, so—. [Laughter.]

What more needs to be done to ensure a just transition to a truly circular economy?

Right, okay. So, this is your final opportunity, really, to tell us what really needs to be done.

I think a lot of things we've touched on already, certainly around that I think reuse needs to be probably front and centre of some of that, because there's real opportunity for addressing poverty within that, and I don't think we've done that yet. I think there was a question earlier, wasn't there: has the cost-of-living impact affected food waste? Well, it doesn't seem to have, so we've got all these great reuse, we've got all these environmental, levers that should be actually helping poverty, but don't seem to be, so perhaps aligning that more. Equally, we touched on green skills, so there's a significant role in upskilling people in new skills, or, should I say, old skills that are now needed again to get there. In terms of the overall 2050 targets as well, we touched on earlier that we still have—. Half our waste report of what's left doesn't have a market, so there's a huge opportunity there for investment, innovation and jobs within that.

What kind of things are we talking about there, then?

Well, you're talking a lot around really bad multi-layer packaging that you can't—you know, it's made of—. This goes back to that light weight issue before: okay, you're now a lot lighter, because you haven't got a glass bottle, but you've got some multi-layer packaging that no-one can do anything with, a few issues like that.

Okay. Thank you. Ashley.

I think it's finding the markets for all these materials, because we so want to get to zero waste, but's that's only possible if there's something to do with the materials that are actually collected, and then looking at it as part of the whole carbon impact of it all, because, again, it's going back to 'Beyond Recycling', which is exactly what it should be, because recycling isn't necessarily the best way of dealing with it; you can stop it being produced in the first place, or whatever you need to do with it. And I think EPR will have an impact on this as well, in terms of what is actually put on the market. As Paul says, a Tetra Pak might be lighter than a glass bottle, but it's a damn sight harder to recycle, and I think this has to be taken into account, and all the various almost like green washing. I think it's industry knowing what they need to do in terms of, okay, you can't use single-use plastics anymore, so they give you wooden forks. Well, that's not really the answer, is it? So, it's actually going back to the reuse element again. And just to quickly touch on the workplace recycling regulations—which of course not only affects us as waste collectors, it affects us as producers—so, we've all got our county halls, and it's actually driven our kitchens, our canteens, to stop giving out disposable items and actually go back to proper plates and knives and forks. And that's the direction we need to go in, not just saying, 'Oh, well, we don't bother with plastic, but it's wood instead', but it's still disposable.

Okay. Final word to you, then, Craig.

Yes, sorry. It was just to reference a report that we've undertaken with Miller Consultants, which is looking at circularity on a community level—and, hopefully, that will come round to the committee members—and the rationale for that was: what do communities understand about a circular economy and what are the opportunities and issues that they need to address as a community. We saw quite a lot about resilience within communities in terms of COVID, and what we were trying to do there was engage with communities around an issue that can seem quite abstract, that can not seem quite clear as to what the interventions are, what should we be doing, what should we be prioritising. So, we worked with three communities across Wales—and you have the report for the community up in Gwynedd—and the idea was: first, raise awareness about circularity, so that people understand what it is and why it's a good thing, and, linking back to earlier comments about it tends to be the foundational economy, it tends to be nested within those communities, it's jobs in those communities, so it's a good thing from that point of view. We've tried to look at the data that's available around circularity on a community level, so that starts to tell you where the current provision is, what is working well in that community, what the opportunities for growth may be, where do we need to intervene to actually help things. Because certainly, from a public sector point of view, we can help the process but we certainly can't fundamentally change the economy of Wales—that has to be driven by other processes. And that engagement with the public, so they understand—. It's the age-old problem, 'Why are we recycling?', well, we're doing it to drive jobs in local communities that deliver back to those communities. So, I think that's a fundamental issue, that we need to always think about the circular economy in terms of people's understanding and engagement with it, because otherwise it can get fairly esoteric fairly quickly.

Excellent. Can I thank the three of you for the very valuable evidence that you've shared with us today? We're very, very grateful and it will be pretty central to the work that we do on this as a committee, so diolch yn fawr iawn.

The committee will now break for 10 minutes, and we'll reconvene, ready to start again, at 11:50, when we'll be hearing from the Chartered Institution of Wastes Management. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Well, welcome back to the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee. We'll be moving on to our third evidence session this morning, where we will hear from representatives of the Chartered Institution of Wastes Management. So, welcome to Ben Maizey, who's chair of the chartered institution, and Lee Marshall, who's director of innovation and technical services with the institution. So, a warm welcome to you both. We'll go straight to questions, and I'll go to Joyce Watson for the first question.

Good morning, both. I just want to know about your views on the targets set out in 'Beyond Recycling', and whether you think they're proportionate and achievable.

Well, the targets are there. They're bold. They're far pushing beyond anything else that we see in the UK, and they have definitely driven the agenda of not only recycling, but to go beyond recycling, and we're seeing great initiatives across Wales, in numerous sectors across the public—great social enterprises coming up. So, it's a fantastic driver for positive change, but we're only one year away from hitting the first set of objectives. Are they achievable? It's tough, if we're honest.

Well, we want you to be honest. We want you to share your views.

It's tough. It's going to be very, very close. But let's not—. If people achieve it, some authorities achieve it—fantastic. I think everybody's going to be there or thereabouts. And it's about having a clear road map of how we're then going to move on beyond next year's targets in a positive way, in a clear way and an achievable way, which—and I'm sure it will be picked up with other evidence panels as well—after a lot of work has been done, how are we going to get those extra bits of recycling? How are we going to encourage the circular economy through reuse? That is becoming more and more challenging, for a complex of issues—some of those we've mentioned in our written evidence to the panel. So, it's great, it's fantastic, but it's tough. But we're definitely on the right road. I don't know if you want to add anything.

Yes, I think, just to echo that, as we're getting near, obviously, the 70 per cent recycling target in particular, we're starting to realise that a lot of what you would call the low-hanging fruit we've done, and that last little 2 per cent or 3 per cent are proving quite hard to achieve, and especially in the climate that you've heard about in the previous session with local authority budgets and what have you. So, it's going to be tough to get there. I think the ambition, though, has been good. So, the ambition that was set out quite early has enabled us to get really close to them, and has given us a chance of achieving them in the first place. So, I think that aspect of having that target a long time ago, as it were, and the steps to get there, I think, has given us a fighting chance of getting to it.

I think, in the longer term, obviously, something like zero waste is going to be, again, an extremely challenging target to achieve. But, again, it's something that we should look towards. So, as an institution, our vision statement is 'a world beyond waste', which seems a bit daft for an institution that's got 'waste' in its title. But what we mean by that is we want a world where we're looking at resources rather than waste, and, to us, that's what zero waste is about. So, you start managing resources to keep them in economic use, rather than thinking of waste as waste, or resources as waste.

Do you want to speak to any work that's ongoing to develop the interim targets you sort of brushed over? Do you want to talk in any specifics?

Well, I think, on the broader scale, we've seen great investment come into Wales—the board mill in north Wales; there's a number of flexible packaging reprocessing plants—and so the infrastructure on a large scale is there to support recycling. We're seeing great work of reuse, repair cafes and social enterprises dotting up all around Wales, and I know WRAP has done a lot of work to promote not only the facilities available, but encouraging to promote that side of the agenda as well. So, yes, from the bigger scale of those larger investments, we're seeing that happen. But even on the ground, where the footfall is amongst our towns, even in HWRCs, you're seeing more and more reuse centres as well, which is a fantastic thing. People don't just go there to dispose of waste anymore—they're actually going there to pick something up and to reuse it. So, there are a whole host of things going on.

Is there anything you'd like to see from any interim or further targets that we could develop—things that you've come across that would be useful?

I think what isn't perhaps in the targets, and maybe it's because we have focused in Wales on the high recycling, is a focus on residual waste. Now, I know in the interim targets there's a 33 per cent reduction in waste and I think it's—just looking at my notes—a 60 per cent reduction in food waste, but that's where I think the next step comes from, and this actually comes into behaviour change, so particularly those two targets in 2030 are going to come about because people change their behaviour. So, I think at some point there needs to be more of a focus back on the citizen, as it were. We're at a point now in Wales where we've got comprehensive recycling systems in the household. We're starting to implement and have been implementing very recently comprehensive systems for businesses. So, it's now about getting people to do the right thing all of the time, actually, rather than the majority of the time. So, I think maybe some sort of focus onto behaviour change would be beneficial in terms of them meeting these targets and taking us to where we want to get to in Wales.

So, again, that's quite broad. What sort of behaviour, particularly, do you think would be most challenging for individuals?

I think, on a basic level, the recycling behaviour is broadly there. But actually, as we start to move into zero waste and circular economy, it's actually about changing people's consumption patterns, because waste is generated when you buy something, not when you throw it away, as it were, and I think that's going to be the tricky one—starting to get people to think about their actual consumption. I'm not necessarily talking about buying less. It's more about buying different, as it were: so, can you buy things that are repairable, reusable, remanufacturable—those sorts of things. Or perhaps are people able to think about maybe spending a little bit more but on something that's going to last longer, so actually over the course of their lifetime actually they're getting something that is cost-effective.

I wholeheartedly agree. I apologise for being broad, but we're coming in to sit in this session, and the complexity of looking at the whole industry is very broad, so apologies for being vague. But it is about now investing in those higher aspects of the waste hierarchy, which we have been looking at the consumer to change, and we've given them the bins. We've given them the bins not only in their homes and the way that we collect from their homes, but because of the new regulations we're now segregating better in their workplaces as well. So, we're transferring that—what they're doing good in the home is now being done good in the workplace. And we need to continue to expand that, and just to adopt better practices so that people are thinking more sustainably in their home and in their workplaces.

Okay, thank you very much. Right, we'll move on to Janet, then.

How is the waste management industry adapting to the changing profile of the materials process, due to regulatory requirements, and also is the waste management industry itself being given the adequate time to prepare for the effect of regulatory change, and if not, what more can be done?

Okay. Well, in terms of how the industry is adapting, you've now got some of the biggest waste companies in the UK that are dealing with more recycling tonnage than they are disposal tonnage, which wasn't the case probably even three or four years ago. So, they're viewing themselves much more as recycling organisations rather than disposable organisations, so that's where their investment is going and where they're looking at in terms of the future. So, I appreciate it's an English example, but there's a materials sorting facility in Coventry now that's probably one of the most high tech, definitely in the UK if not in Europe, in terms of that it's got robotics, it's got laser sorting and all this sort of thing. So, we're finding that investment is going a lot more into those sorts of areas and also, then, waste companies and other organisations are starting to look at the reuse and repair aspects. Again, I appreciate that it's an English example, but SUEZ have got a reuse hub in Greater Manchester—it's a super-sized shop of the sort that you might find on a HWRC, but, again, this is a multinational waste company looking at things that can be repaired and reused.

So, that's one particular aspect about how the waste management companies are starting to look at things. And they're also looking at what sort of skills are needed in the future. So, CIWM itself undertook a survey last year of waste organisations to see what sort of roles they thought waste companies would need in the future. And instead of talking about heavy goods vehicle drivers and recycling operatives, they're now talking about change managers, they're talking in terms of design. Repair and reuse is one of the biggest sectors they see an increase in. So, they estimate that by, I think it was 2030, they'd need 140,000 people operating in reuse, and to give you an idea of the scale, that's not far off the size of the sector at the moment, so you're talking about doubling size just in that area alone.

So, I think, when you look back—and the CIWM are actually celebrating our hundred and twenty-fifth anniversary this year—when we first started out, we were there to protect human health in the Victorian era, and we've progressed into protecting maybe regional environments and now we're trying to save the whole planet. So, that's not a bad evolution. But you can see that the sector constantly evolves as it's gone through its history, and it continues to do so now. So, we're starting to look at, especially, the policy drive in Wales: high recycling, reuse, repair. So, that's what the sector will be looking to invest in going forward, particularly in Wales.

And I think, and I really hope when I say this, that Welsh Government can always have reliance on the resource management sector. We've gone through a period of COVID, where the changes to the waste and the amount of waste that we were receiving—we were able to adapt to that when many other businesses were taking a step back and closing down. We stepped up. There have been worldwide economic factors of markets, especially into the recyclate market, that have crashed, that have had a direct impact on where materials flow to. Again, within Wales, we've been able to adapt to ensure that that material is recovered and recycled well.

And so, as changes continued to evolve, I can only see the waste industry continuing to be on board with that. With the advancements of technology, the ability to take more materials than we have done in the past—and I'll take a great example of the nappy recycling plant that we have in west Wales; the only one in the world I believe—we're just pushing those boundaries more and more and we're starting to look at greater solutions. And I think the industry has greater confidence in Wales because of its policy, and because of the clear road map, people are able to invest. We're sat in an evidence session together where decision makers and industry are represented and as we come together more and more, we can start to ensure that the policy that is created is in fact supported by what's available here in Wales to deliver. So, we encourage that to continue.

Janet wants to come back in.

Funny you should mention nappies, when speaking to headteachers in my constituency, there's a growing alarm at the number of children around five or six years old still in nappies, and, of course, the more nappies that are worn in later years, there are more nappies and they are really problematic. So, do you think that there needs to be some education, within the school sector and generally, highlighting this as a major concern for the health of the child as well as the care for our environment?

Before you come in on that, I think that's an important—. The whole nappy issue is one of educating people and we heard it from local government earlier as well. What role do you have as a sector in helping with that education? Because the risk is that we leave it to local authorities and voluntary organisations and maybe the private sector doesn't always feel that they have a role to play.

Yes, I suppose as a sector, we tend to deal with the material rather than the education.

Yes. That's why I'm asking.

Yes, so, from that point of view, we'll look at putting in the collection infrastructure and what have you. But, yes, I'd say that in an ideal world, we want more people having reusable nappies and going down that road, and that's where local authorities do a really good job already.

There's probably a role there, and this is where you start looking at waste in its widest sense, because it’s never looked at in isolation—as much as we waste geeks like to look at it—but you start getting involved with people like health boards and midwives and those sorts of things. And, again, I think where we do play a role and can play a role is facilitating some of those discussions sometimes. So, initially, perhaps, it’s just an understanding from the group over there—maybe doctors’ surgeries, midwives or the health board—about our world, and we get an understanding of their world and their problems in promoting that, and then between us we can go, ‘Okay, well, now we understand each other a bit better, we can start to maybe modify messages or solutions et cetera.’

I don’t want to labour this point, because there are other things that we want to cover, but where do you come together, then? Is it just off an ad hoc voluntary basis, or are there fora where you sit down together and discuss these things?

It’s a bit of both, to be fair. So, sometimes you’ll come together as ad hoc because issues will have come, and there are fora out there. So, CIWM sits on a national clinical waste, as it were, forum, where these sorts of things potentially can come up.

Okay. There we are, lovely. Thank you very much. Carolyn.

Good morning. What’s been the experience of the waste sector in the roll-out of workplace recycling regulations?

I think the initial thing is a pat on the back and a big thumbs up; there’s been a great take-up. There seems to have been a good promotion of it through television adverts, and I know, again, WRAP Cymru have done webinars and have contacted numerous businesses. And everywhere I personally turn, you can see that people are wanting to do the right thing. You can see the segregated bins, and as I mentioned earlier on, it’s a fantastic way of people doing what they do in their home to dispose of their waste and actually doing it in their workplace, and they’re seeing it on a more consistent basis. And all those things are to be applauded.

I take an intake of breath, because I genuinely feel there’s a whole lot more that needs to be done. It’s very clear that not everybody is on board, that not everybody is as familiar, and that there are still some major communication issues that need to be addressed. As part of the written evidence, we just use as an example of how waste changes to households were done with teams of people knocking the doors individually, making sure that there was a leaflet that went to every home. That resource hasn’t been given to every business yet. We are relying that they have seen the tv adverts, we are relying that they may have jumped on a webinar presentation, we are relying that the collectors of waste have actually passed on the appropriate information to that business. And so I think, because we are relying on some things, we still don’t know the full picture, and because we’re only a month or two down the road, it’s hard to really gauge exactly where we are.

I wanted to bring up two specific things, of what I’ve come across. One was general practitioner surgeries. It was interesting to note of an experience at Cardiff and Vale—and not wanting to point fingers, but I’m just using this as an example. Cardiff and Vale cover the costs of GP surgeries for any residual bins, which they class as trade waste. The additional recycling bins are not covered by any budget. I use this as an example—again, not to point fingers, but this may happen in other sectors where people are actually spending more now to do the right thing. And we need to make sure that that is not happening anywhere in Wales. And I use that example because that was an example that I found, but I’m really fearful that there might be other examples where people are actually contributing more to do the right thing. And we also see, especially in tourism areas where there’s a lot of on-the-go litter, that the producers of waste who put out these bins—the bins aren’t being used properly, and so those producers not only have incurred the extra cost of putting out the bins, but they’re actually having to pick up and actually sort through the waste themselves before it goes to the collector. So, again, we’re putting a greater onus on some businesses to do the right thing. And I want to promote and, hopefully, work together to ensure that there's no excuse for people not to do the right thing, because of an obstacle, if that be a financial, economic obstacle, or if that's a physical, sort-through-your-waste issue.

The former Minister, who used to appear before us regularly, always used to remind us that, 'Do the right thing' has to be the easy thing, because, otherwise, a lot of people will do it.

Yes, and it is. But it was disappointing when I found that issue, that one side of Government aren't supporting what we're all about, this side of Government right now. That's something I wanted to highlight.

Thank you.

Thank you. It's been raised with me that holiday parks, where residents are still putting the waste all together and they're having to sort through it, and concerns about enforcement by NRW if there's any contamination. I was reassured that NRW wouldn't be enforcing, perhaps, this holiday season, or they'd be a bit more lenient maybe. Has that been raised with you as a concern?

Yes. In the previous session with Ashley from Powys, I worked with Ashley when we introduced our household scheme there, and they're a big change, and they do take a bit of time to bed down. If you come back to it in a year's time, everyone will go, 'Oh, I don't know what all the fuss was about.' So, yes, I think that's an appropriate way to approach it from NRW, and I must admit we're not getting masses of feedback from waste collectors in Wales saying there are huge problems. They're highlighting issues like that, which you've already heard about, but, actually, in the relative scheme of things, it sounds like it's coming so far—touch wood—relatively easier than you might imagine from something like this. Like I say, there's more comms that can always be done, but actually the comms that have been done, I think, are probably as much as you could and would expect in this situation. I live in Wales, I live in Builth, so when you saw an advert come up previous to 1 April with it on it, you think, 'Oh, that's good, I've seen that.' It's reassuring that, as a waste professional, you see that in a non-waste setting.

Sorry to interject there. We've been working with WRAP and NRW to promote the workplace changes, and I don't want to speak for them, but it's been very clear in their messages that they will take a proportionate approach. They just want to make sure that people are doing the right thing in the right way, and fully understanding that, within the household, we give them the information and they have full ownership of what goes in their bin, whereas that producer on a holiday park, as you mentioned—

There isn't accountability.

—they're at the whim of everybody who uses it. So, there will be, I'm sure, a proportionate approach given to—.

But there are some practical issues, not dissimilar, in terms of shared accommodation for offices and that kind of thing. I know of others who say, 'Well, I'm not going to do this, because I know if I put my bin outside, then the others will just probably use my bin, and I'll end up paying for it or whatever.' You're finding that as well, I'd imagine.

Yes, and also the added complication you've got, obviously, is with commercial waste it's a free market, you can choose who collects it. As a householder, I'll say 'stuck'—it's meant in an affectionate way—but you're stuck with your local authority, you've got to comply with the rules that they've got. But, as a business, if a waste collector is coming in saying, 'Well, these new regulations are here and we need to offer you this, this and this service', and, for whatever reason, as a business, you don't want to comply, you can go and find another waste collector if you want, that maybe doesn't offer the services that they should or whatever. So, there's that free market element that I think then makes complying with all the regulations that little bit more problematic.

Are there—

Briefly, then, Joyce.

Briefly on this, I live in Pembrokeshire, a high-tourist area. What I had seen before the rules came in were good, clearly marked out bins for recycling; what I've seen since, and very recently, is, 'Take your rubbish home.' I've seen it right across my area. So, are you getting any feedback on that? Because, of course, that doesn't happen, people don't take it home. What they're doing is overfilling the bins right by, and it's all mixed together.

Yes, and that is probably one of the unintended consequences of—. When you design these schemes, you think you've covered every base and then you put it in and you find that someone will always find a way of getting around something, or breaking it—in inverted commas—that you hadn't intended. So, if that is then happening, that's something that perhaps we need to look at in the regulations and see if there's a way of mitigating that. And again, over time, that should lessen as people start to get used to the system, and the collection systems themselves evolve as they start to get the data about what materials are being put out by what businesses, how often and that sort of thing. So, you will see the system evolve as you go along, like I say, as we start to bed it in and get more data, especially the data side of things, because waste collection companies will look at it and go, 'Actually, we can change the collection system', or 'We can change the sorts of bins we offer you because we're starting to see that material coming out, or that material not coming out.'

There is the presumption that sometimes more bins are needed. You know, 'We need more bins.' But I actually removed bins from lay-bys because people were adding extra rubbish at the side of the lay-by bins, which was an issue, so I got them removed and now there's no rubbish there, because people have to take it home then.

Yes. Typically, you find with residual waste that if you give people a big bin, it'll end up getting filled; if you give them a small bin—. They will fill it to the size of the capacity of the bin, as it were. We've not managed to get to the bottom of why that is, yet.

Do you think that the current levels of investment in infrastructure are adequate for this, or do you think there's something else that's needed?

Yes. I think, on a general level, it is. I mean, the industry was given suitable notice. It was more challenging than other aspects, don't get me wrong, but I think, broadly speaking, the investment's there. If there are any issues, there may be one or two issues in terms of supply chains, because people are all trying to get the same pieces of kit at the same time, and we're about to find this, probably, across in England, where they're implementing some of their own reforms and a lot of local authorities are going to have to change their services. But I would say, broadly speaking, again, because of the policy context in Wales, it's quite definite, it's quite sure, there's a clear direction of travel. And whether you agree with it or not—and most of us do agree with it—you know where you're going and where your investment needs to be. So, I think in terms of—. And apologies for comparing Wales to England, but Wales does come out on top, as it would and should, but, you know, the policy direction is a lot better, so there's a lot more certainty, I would suggest, for investment in our sector in Wales than perhaps there is in England at the moment, where we've had some delays in some policy decisions.

Thank you.

There we are. Okay. Thank you. We'll come back to Janet then.

Thank you. What are your views on introducing legislation to ensure that separated key recyclables are banned from energy recovery or landfill?

This is an interesting one. I think the driver behind it is good and well intended. I think where there then becomes an issue is at what point do you place the enforcement of this. So, if you place it on the waste collector, who is taking it to the energy-from-waste plant, you could argue that that's too late, because if there's something that shouldn't be in there, it's already in the container, in the bin. So, do you then put it back one step to the waste producer, which is probably the right place to do it, because they're the people whose behaviour you want to change, but if you do that, what sort of resources have you then got and what sort of powers have you then got for enforcement, if the mistakes are happening at that particular level? And again, what sort of education have you got? Because ideally, you want enforcement at the end of an education process, because if you're enforcing someone who hasn't changed their habits, they're doing the wrong thing, and that's not what you want. So, you almost want the threat of the stick, without having to use the stick because you've educated along the way. So, I think the principle is sound. I think there is an issue, though, in terms of where and how you then regulate it to make sure that it gives you the desired outcomes that you want.

I can't add any more to that, really. That would be my answer. Because things will fall through the net. You're not going to know what's in the bottom of that black bag, and so, if you're banning something like plastic to an incinerator or to landfill, how is that receiver going to know and how is that enforced by the regulator? It's going to be very, very difficult for consistency. But as Lee mentioned, I think the thought behind it is a worthy one to pursue, but it needs to be clear on how it will be regulated.

Sure.

I mean, just following on from that, you've got energy from waste coming into the UK ETS, the emissions trading scheme process in 2028, and we think, actually, by doing that, that may provide some drivers for getting fossil and carbon content out of the streams that currently go into energy from waste and, specifically, any plastics that may be recyclable in there. So, that policy may assist in, then, this policy as well, so you may get the two actually working together from that point of view.

Okay, that's interesting, yes, thank you. Just a couple from me, then: a deposit-return scheme, of course, has been delayed now in Wales, hasn't it? Any reflections on what impact that might have on your work?

Yes, as an institution, we've suggested that DRS should be delayed anyway until the full impacts of the EPR scheme is—and more so in England, the changes that they will be doing to their collections, which, in effect, will get them up to where Wales has been for a while—

But is it not regrettable that all of that is holding us back, because, you know, we take great pride in being ahead of the curve here and we're now moving towards the lowest-common-denominator approach?

Yes and no, because I think what it does give is the opportunity to explore digital DRS in more scale. Again, I think this is where Wales has got a different context from the rest of the UK, because we're already so high performing. We've got comprehensive kerbside schemes that collect all of the materials that are in a DRS. The actual need for a DRS, potentially, is less in Wales than it is in the rest of the UK. Again, because you've got comprehensive kerbside schemes, why not utilise those, rather than investing a lot of money into reverse vending machines? Actually, in theory, it's a lot simpler for people to stick it into the box they're already sticking it into, even if they've just got to do a scan on the box and a scan on the bottle; that's a lot easier than, potentially, taking it back to an RVM. So, I think there's potential for investment in the existing kerbside infrastructure that would give you the benefits of a DRS. One of the other benefits, obviously, of a DRS is the behaviour change aspect back onto the consumer. But putting it through the kerbside system, in theory, will be more cost-effective for Wales/UK plc.

Just to mention my concern, if you're adding extra processes, and extra costs, therefore, when they're already doing the kerbside sorted, you're not actually gaining anything, are you?

Potentially, yes.

Which is why the four-nation approach, the pause for the four-nation approach to catch up, and having the EPR in place first—. Can I just—? Regarding the EPR coming into place and replacing the waste management grant for local authorities, how clear is that at the moment—you know, that funding and that change there? What's the feeling out there regarding it?

I'm an ex-local authority officer, so I think there is an element of nervousness from local authority officers—again, it's probably more on the English side of things—in terms of, 'Well, if we're getting this funding in from producers over here, will the Governments that currently fund us see an opportunity to maybe claw some back the other way?', so you don't get the full effect of it. Obviously, in Wales, you've got the slight difference because you've got the sustainable waste management grant and the direct funding that local authorities get.

I must admit that we're slightly removed from that, in terms of how that's starting to pan out at the moment, and, apologies, I couldn't hear all of the WLGA's evidence. They'll be much closer to that and I'm sure they'll be pushing to make sure that that's kept there, as well as the funding coming in, because if you take one pot away, you're not going to see the increases that EPR is designed to do. I know that one of the concerns of the producer side of things is that they're worried that their funding will just replace other funding that's taken out, and, again, they won't see the increase that they need to reach their packaging targets. But, I don't know, obviously, you're a bit closer to the Wales—

Would it be used just for England to catch up first, where Wales has already invested, so Wales won't see the benefit? That's my concern.

It could be. The delay in the EPR may mean that there's a delay in better packaging coming onto our shelves that can be easily recycled. But there is a far bigger and greater picture here that we will need to use our partners across the UK and wider, so that when it does come in, hopefully, it will be a better way of not only ensuring that recycling and reuse are captured, but that there are greater economies of scale coming into Wales, so that will bring more jobs and more opportunities to recycle. But that investment also—something I mentioned earlier on—needs to be put in not so much into the infrastructure of how it's collected, but I would just look at, if there's a delay, how are we going to use this extra money coming in to local authorities and collections? Are we going to use it, actually, on the front end, or are we going to take into account those behaviour issues that we've identified, and make sure that people are taking their waste home with them, making sure that, when their item in the home is broken, they turn to YouTube and see if there's a solution where it can be fixed easier than chucking it out? And I really, really do believe that the waste hierarchy needs to be prioritised more in Wales—that we're looking at that higher end of reuse, rather than putting in more infrastructure for collection models. Of course they're needed, to get them away, but it's that behavioural change that I really think—. The greater economy, and money that comes from EPR, or should come in from EPR, needs to be put in those areas as well.

You may well have started answering what was going to be my final question, really. So, I'll make you First Minister, and I'll make you climate change Secretary, what else needs to happen now for us to truly transition to a circular economy by 2050? What are the big one or two things that maybe we haven't touched on—maybe we have—that you really feel that we need to be pursuing here in Wales?

With great power comes great responsibility, doesn't it? [Laughter.] Do you want to go first, as First Minister?

No. [Laughter.]

You spoke about the culture change and education in everything—maybe that's it; more on that front, I don't know.

I think there are a couple of things. At the moment, in terms of the way waste is regulated, it's still regulated as waste. So, once something is discarded, it immediately becomes waste in the eyes of the law, and you've then almost got to unclassify it again if you've got a use for it. So, I think, as I've said, as an industry, we're now dealing with resources more than waste, and that's only going to continue. So, I think we need the regulation to catch up, and we need to start regulating resources, because then that will make it easier to then get these resources to end markets. I think that's one aspect.

And I think the other one for me is—and a part of me doesn't like myself saying this, because I'm an environmentalist, I'm a waste geek; I like that side of it. We focus a lot on the circular part of the circular economy, because, in theory, that's easy, but, actually, if we get the economy part of that working, if we can prove the business models of a circular nature work, it will catch on very quickly. Because if people can see that, actually, they can make, perhaps, profits, and they can do good for the planet at the same time, that's how it will get supercharged. So, actually, I think—it's slightly outside of our sector—business development and economic aspects of the circular economy are really important. Especially as there's a lot of start-ups in this area, so trying to work with start-ups and small companies that are starting to develop these sorts of business models I think will be really key, because once it gets to a certain point where you prove it, the mainstream comes in. And I think, again, in one of your previous sessions, you heard about the reuse, and it tends to be the charities and the third sector, and they're very good at innovation and niche. I've been in the industry long enough that, at one point, they were the people undertaking the kerbside collections, and they got it to a point where it was proved enough for the mainstream that your large waste companies and your councils took it on board. So, I think definitely focusing in on the economic aspects of the circular economy will really help us get there.

Excellent.

Do you know, I was prepared for every other question you've given to me—[Laughter.]—but that takes me back a step. I've been quite bold, and I've just written down five things, and one of those things was the economy. When businesses, start-ups, see that there is a business to be made, they will do it. I know we're about the environment, and that is utmost, but when we join that with the economy, that makes it so much easier for things to be done.

One other point that will always need to be focused on is the policy. We've got a clear road map in Wales, which is driving good behavioural change, but that needs to be reviewed and that needs to be consulted upon. So, I think continuing to have strong policy, strong economic motivators and continuing to invest in up-to-date technologies is always important. But the last two that I have is, firstly, collaboration, so that industry, decision makers, collectors and producers are having their forum, to come together, to work collectively towards these goals, and that is going to be not only with us within Wales. We are going to have to work across the border, we are going to have to work across Europe. Having these partners with us allows us to drive and hopefully have those tools. When we talked, right at the beginning of the evidence session, of the tough challenges that there are to get to our next set of targets, we're going to need to have other partners to support us to get there as well, and I think there needs to be a recognition of that.

And finally is education—education of behavioural change. I've only sat in this seat once before, and I think I made a behavioural change, because last time I came here, you gave me a big sticker with my name on it—

Oh, yes, I remember. I remember.

Remember that? I was like a contestant on the Price Is Right. And today—. And I had to take off one side and throw it in a bin, and it was not reusable, so I had to throw my sticker, at the end of the day, in another bin. And today you've offered me a lanyard that can be reused and there is no waste. And I think, from every level, whether that's Government, business or within the home, it's encouraging that behavioural change of looking at things sustainably: 'Can I reuse, can I do things in a better way that will take away from it going into the bin altogether?' And so it's education for everybody, at all levels, and have that message continue to be promoted. And hopefully that gives WRAP Cymru a job for the foreseeable future. [Laughter.]

Well, on that positive note, can I thank you both for again imparting your evidence with us? It's really valuable and we really appreciate the time that you give this committee—plenty for us to mull over there, so diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Committee will now break until, shall we say, 13.15 p.m., and then we'll try and reconvene slightly earlier, if we could, for our final session with the Federation of Small Businesses Cymru. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Welcome back to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee. We're going to hear now, in our fourth evidence session and the final session for today, from a representative from the Federation of Small Businesses Wales, and I welcome Llŷr ap Gareth, who is head of policy with the Federation of Small Businesses Wales. A warm welcome to you. We'll go straight to questions, and we have about 50 minutes allocated for this session, and we'll use as much time as required up to that time. So, we're going to hear first of all from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Chair, and prynhawn da, Llŷr. So, to what extent do you believe businesses are being supported to become more resource efficient, and do you believe the Welsh Government is doing enough to support those businesses with advice as well?

So, to put that in context, I think we can go back to some of the survey results that we've had around how small businesses are looking at sustainability in general, and I think you have this in our written evidence, but 37 per cent of small businesses think they have a duty or responsibility to help with the climate crisis, but only 24 per cent, perhaps, understand what the Welsh Government's strategy is. Now, that's going back to 2021, and perhaps there has been movement since then, given some of the policy discussions and policy changes, but I think that fundamentally remains a problem, in that businesses want to help, but they don't really know how to do it, they don't know how they can make a difference and, when initiatives are made, often, they don't quite get how they're going to be supported. Often it feels, I think, with the timescales of introduction of things for small and medium-sized enterprises, that they are not provided with enough support ahead of time. Therefore, they end up having to rush to make the changes, and that in turn adds to the fraught nature of those changes, if you like. I think that's the general feel we have.

We should add, I guess, that many businesses will be in different places and at different levels on this as well. It's such a hugely diverse field. But I think, when we're discussing some of the things that we're going to discuss today, it's important also to note that, as it happens, really, and I know it sounds like an excuse, but I think it's a good reason, a lot of the businesses that are most, perhaps, impacted by the changes being asked of them are those in retail and hospitality, who have been particularly hit, I think, over the last three or four years. So, I think there's a danger that some of that side of being asked to do these things, but without the proper support, could have an impact on, perhaps, the way people are seeing or supporting the whole agenda, if you like, if it's only seen as a cost and not some benefit. And I think we can discuss some of the costs and benefits that could be possible—there are opportunities here—as we go on.

What advice and support is being provided to small businesses by local authorities?

I should probably make clear on some of the most recent stuff that we haven't done a systematic analysis of how SMEs have reacted to, for example, the recent recycling regulations. My understanding from what our staff have discussed with local authorities is that local authorities feel they have been inundated, at times, by questions around these things, about how to comply, what the issues are. In many ways, that's a good thing from our point of view, that they're going to local authorities rather than us, because we haven't heard so much. But that's the understanding I have. In a way, that might show that there's engagement happening. It would depend on how much flexibility there is in responding, but the understanding I have, anecdotally, from the members that our team have discussed with is that they felt that there hasn't been that much flexibility from the local authorities about how, and the advice being given hasn't been necessary geared towards those businesses, and that there is a feeling, sometimes, that the guidance has not detailed enough for specific sectors and for specific situations, so there's a sort of—. Well, maybe it's not one size fits all, but it doesn't quite go to the granular level that those businesses feel they need. Again, I should point out that's to do with the businesses we've spoken to rather than a systematic survey or research on that field. But that's the sort of way we feel the wind is.

My feedback, as somebody who's got an office in my role as an MS, is that we've had to have all these different bins now. For instance, there's one for food waste in my little office here. Well, we don't have any food waste other than tea bags. So we have to have a bin specifically for tea bags. Anyway, we're just doing it. We don't want to break the law, of course. What has been the experiences of small businesses in the roll-out of the single-use plastic ban?

I think with the single-use plastic ban, we found there was quite a lot of confusion about what businesses were able to do. We knew quite a few people who are working with food in the retail industry who thought that they'd actually done the things they needed to to get to the sustainable packaging, as it were, and, of course, they were actually very confused about whether they had or not once the regulations came in. That's to do with, in some ways, the definition of that plastic and the fact it's actually quite difficult, perhaps, for small businesses to make that judgement themselves.

I guess, in some respects, you could argue that the higher up the supply chain that the regulations happen, the easier it is for small businesses, rather than them having to work it out for themselves about what they are doing to fit within the law. There was a lot of confusion over that as it was coming in, and we had that from quite a lot of different types of members. We've heard less of it as it's gone on now. As I say, in a way, we probably would need to do a refresh and look to see what the impact is by now. And there have been pretty sensible things, such as there has been a transition period. We've heard of businesses who had stock that they had that wasn't within the law, but were told to use it rather than it go straight to landfill. So, all of those things are helpful, and they probably do help with that transition period, to allow businesses to catch up, if you like. So, I think that's quite useful.

Again, I don't want to make too much of a thing of it now, because, again, we haven't heard so much about it over the last few months, but there was some discussion by businesses who were in the sustainable packaging industry who were themselves a bit concerned about the definition of single-use plastic as cutting their innovations out, as it were, which they felt was unfair and not really within the spirit of what they were attempting to do. Again, it's a very technical area, and I don't want to speak too much on it, and, also, to be fair, that's a UK Government single-use plastic definition. If the Welsh Government were do to something differently there, they'd be damned if they did and damned if they didn't. So, there's an element where we have to kind of get used to it. Again, we haven't heard so much about that, but our colleagues in the UK are also in discussions with DEFRA to see if that fits with other legislation in other places, such as Canada and the EU.

Thank you. How is phase 2 of the single-use plastic ban being communicated to businesses?

We've had initial discussions ourselves as FSB with officials around what's happening with phase 2. It's early in terms of where that communication is at. It is quite useful and good that they are aware of some of the issues around timelines that occurred, particularly where there was divergence from England on the single-use plastics that were banned. So, they are trying to match those up and trying to make sure that that's a bit more clear this time. I think that was a big part of some of the problems that we faced, because, obviously, as you all very well know, most people get their news and media from places outside of Wales. So, you'll often think that something's coming to affect you at a different point, when, actually, it's not the case in Wales. So, I think that remained an issue.

I think it's good to see that that's changed slightly with the recycling and waste strategy and the implementation of those new regulations, because it does seem to have been more public-facing or business-facing. I think there was a little bit, perhaps, of complacency with the idea that, 'We're talking about it, everybody's talking about single-use plastics, so businesses should know what's coming.' Well, even when they knew what was coming, they probably didn't know how it affected them, what their liability was, how they were supposed to understand the supply chain elements of all of this stuff. Some of the comments the Minister was making, such as you'd have to have been hiding under a rock to not have heard about the single-use plastics issue, were, perhaps, slightly naive on the idea of how much, actually, this information gets through to all the small businesses affected.

So, I think, from the understanding of where they're looking at in terms of timelines, I think it's looking like they've learnt the lesson from that. And, as I say, I think some of the workplace recycling regulations were better communicated, albeit still quite late in the day. But I think the materials and the guidelines seem to have been a little bit clearer, whatever experience people might have of actually implementing them, which might be a different thing.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Carolyn.

Regarding workplace recycling, what's been the experience of that for small businesses?

Again, it's varied. As I say, we haven't got a huge survey coming back telling us; it's only the ones that have something to say. And, often, the ones who have something to say will obviously have something to complain about in some respects. But I think they've found that there have been impacts on their daily processes—the time taken to get ahead of those daily processes and to adhere to them. There have been a lot of businesses that have been worried about the space being used for those bins, and as Janet Finch-Saunders mentioned, there were some who were perhaps very small businesses, who are wondering, 'Do we need to have all of these things?' when it might not be suitable. But there wasn't much flexibility on that.

It's important to note, by the way, just to be clear again, that this isn't a matter of those businesses not wanting to recycle; it's about the implementation and making things as easy as possible. As the Minister previously said, it's making it easy to do the right thing. That's the spirit in which we're responding, just to be clear. But I think there were also issues around increased costs. We know of one small retail business in south-east Wales that spoke about an extra £2,500 per month in running costs. So, I think those concerns are there. Again, the concerns are probably also heightened by the fact that those businesses probably feel under the cosh following COVID and the cost-of-living crisis, so anything that adds to the time, to the stress, to the costs, is a worry.

Again, it's anecdotal, really, but we've heard experiences where businesses have found that local authority trucks, for example, have difficulty accessing their businesses now, and that means that they have been told to look for private providers. That can have a different impact in different parts of the country, as you can imagine. Where there might be quite a bit of competition, the costs might not be so bad. In some, perhaps, more rural areas, there might not be that many choices there. So, it would be useful to have an evaluation of those costs and how that impacts. Also, perhaps, if local authorities are in a position, following all the cuts and with the lack of capacity, perhaps, to provide for businesses, whether that might have an impact on the push towards the private sector, and whether that might have an added cost element.

So, those are the concerns that we've encountered. Again, we haven't ourselves heard so much directly. That might be because they're accessing our website, the legal hub that we have for members, or they could be—. As I mentioned, I understand that a lot of local authorities have been asked a lot of questions here, so they might just be cutting us out as the middleman, if you like, and just going straight to the regulators, which would be quite useful. But that's the response that we have.

Are many businesses using local authorities? Because they're set up for the municipal waste, aren't they, for household waste collections, and I think they were concerned about adding businesses to rounds and having enough vehicles and enough collectors. Is that happening much, that businesses are going to local authorities to actually collect the waste?

To be honest, I don't have the figures for how many of our members are doing that. I can come back to you on that.

Thank you. Regarding the delay of the deposit-return scheme and the extended producer responsibility, has that had an impact on businesses, do you think? What's the feeling there? Do you think that they're concerned about it, or concerned about recycling rates? Have you got any views on that?

They're concerned about recycling rates, just to be clear, and you'll have the figures in the written evidence. Our figures at the UK level are that 64 per cent in 2021 had made moves to increase their recycling. So, they are concerned. The concern is less about doing it than how to do it and if there are means to do it in a way that makes it easier.

With the DRS, I think we're quite supportive of a delay, because we're not sure, actually, what that looks like in a way that works for the smaller businesses. We have some experience of this in Scotland, where there were clearly issues around, particularly, brewers and distillers. From what I understand, the Association of Convenience Stores have done quite a lot of work on this, more than we have at FSB Wales, at least, but I understand that glass and so on is a worry. We have our position on hospitality and restaurants: because they don't have that many carry-outs, they probably shouldn't be within it, and those sorts of things. But that's the level at which we've responded to the consultations and that sort of thing, rather than going into any granular detail on the design.

I think a delay is good because, in some ways, there are opportunities here. So, one of them is, obviously, you'll be aware, whether there's a possibility of looking at technology and a digital DRS scheme such as the one that was piloted in Brecon—whether there's a way to make that work for small businesses. There are concerns on the high street with, possibly, a volume of wheelie bins. The flip side to that is that there could be opportunities, in that there are quite a lot of spaces available for hubs in high streets that could perhaps be used as spaces for this sort of activity. And some of our members have mentioned to us that there could be an opportunity actually to increase footfall in high streets by having people coming in with their bottles and going around. So, I think there are opportunities, but I think it's good to make sure that we do it properly, that being first isn't necessarily as important as doing it right and learning the lessons from elsewhere.

The other quick thing, I think—. And this might not be DRS actually, but more recycling, but I just wanted to mention that in Northern Ireland, our colleagues were pointing us towards the resource-sharing website that they have, Invest Northern Ireland, which is a way of perhaps helping SMEs to understand the value of their waste. So, it's a resource-matching service, where you point to your resources that you've used as waste and others can pick it up to use it for their materials. So, I think there is a whole discussion to be had about how do we discuss using this as value, and the opportunity of perhaps things like footfall, and ways of making sure that it's easy, that, if you don't have space in the shop for DRS things, there might be other ways to do it, and whether we can use technology.

I suppose, with that four-nation approach, then, it's quite good to learn from what's happening in Ireland as well, so—.

Yes. We are—. I think Scotland has gone its own way a little bit on DRS, ahead of others, and there have been some issues from what I understand. But I think that learning from those mistakes is probably good. In general, we would advocate that it's good, where possible, to have consistency across all the nations (a) because it means that everybody's following the same regime, and also that, if you're crossing a border, you know that the same regime exists, and so consistency would be very good on that.

I'm interested to hear about using pubs for the collecting of DRS, because I know that shops were concerned about space, weren't they? I know that Iceland was concerned, when they were looking at rolling it out in Scotland—having space in their supermarkets—but pubs, that's different.

Good idea, yes.

Thank you.

Great, diolch yn fawr. Okay, Joyce.

I'm just wondering, keeping on with the DRS, whether you're involved in any of the conversations around the policy.

No, and, in a way, that's part of the reason why we welcome it being delayed a little bit. We haven't been part of the discussions around DRS to be honest; it's been more that we've responded to consultations, and that's been our level of input.

I'm interested in the idea of creating footfall, but also creating jobs from recycling. I used to be in the catering industry for years and anything that I used went automatically back to recycling in the form of bottles, because the deliveries would have returns anyway, and that's just how life was—you just put it back. It was delivered to you one week and, the next week, the returns were taken away and obviously washed, reused, recycled. So, I don't know whether you've looked at business opportunities for washeries, for example. You'd have washeries for dairies. You'll be very familiar in this room with washeries, and that would create jobs and another industry. I'm sure you're not going to have the answer now—I don't expect that—but as a possible way forward for exploring opportunities within communities that might be struggling to provide work.

Yes, I think that's a fair assessment. I think there is a danger that the way it's discussed is often in terms of risk and problems alone, and mitigation of those risks. I think there are quite clearly quite a lot of opportunities, and anything where it moves from a linear to a circular economy means that the value chain is almost—. There are more links there, right, which allows for more industry. I think it’s important, though, that that discussion is similar in a way to the discussion around communications and needing to get ahead of things. I think some of the issues that we found with the single-use plastic—. The producers of packaging, for example, were noting that, in some of the countries, such as Chile, they had infrastructure to sort the different plastics to avoid cross-contamination, whereas that wasn’t the case here, and that part of the problem is that infrastructure isn’t there. You need that infrastructure and you need the ability to be able to take those opportunities as well, and I think there’s a role there in terms of a circular economy, circular hubs, you know. That’s obviously very general. I’m not going to be able to say more on that.

I think, in terms of your point around the bottles, though, it’s a fair point to point to it being sent back up the supply chain, if you like. I guess the danger with DRS is the expectation that you’re able to take on all the bottles that come in. And if you are lacking in space, that could have quite a big impact on a very small retail space. So, I think that’s the discussion. That doesn’t mean the discussion needs to end there; as I mentioned, if there’s room, if there is space available in places, let's see if there is a flexible approach that can take advantage of that, or use—as was the case with the digital deposit-return scheme, whether there might be boxes on the high street where you can do that as well.

So, I think it’s important to understand what the impact is for those businesses, to understand why they might be quite nervous around being brought in to this legislation, as it were.

Okay. That's fine.

Yes, okay. Thank you very much. I’ll ask one or two questions, if I may. We’ve already touched on the four countries in the UK working together, sharing good practice et cetera. You touched briefly on what you suggested was the advantage of making policies more consistent across the United Kingdom. Could you just outline what benefits there are, or indeed risks or disadvantages, of working on this on a national level within the UK?

Yes. Of course, we’re talking that, where possible, it’s better to be consistent and it's easier to get the message out, especially in Wales, as the media can be quite difficult, and people will take their flags, if you like, from news that is British but quite often talks about the English side of things in this. But, of course, the risk with that is that you follow those that are doing the least. So, I think there is an element where there’s a need for consistency in the framework, and perhaps there’s room for differences, but you need to understand that trade-off in bringing policy into implementation.

That’s one of the things that concerned us with plastics, exactly that: that perhaps we weren’t bringing it into the implementation of the policy, considering that there was a need to have quite clear marketing in that context, where perhaps, with recycling, for example, there was more understanding of a need to link directly with businesses in Wales for them to understand where they were and to make sure that you had those touch points, those networking touch points, to do that.

So, yes, there are advantages, of course. There are economies of scale, for example, but also there is room for local government, perhaps, to support in this context. If we’re talking about high streets, the spaces in high streets are going to be different in terms of the space that’s available. You need some space to take advantage of what’s available in those places, the placemaking, if you like. So, there is a need to ensure that there is consistency, that it’s clear who’s doing what, and that it's clear for the businesses, really, what's expected of them. They don't want to see these joins between local government, devolved government and UK Government, they just want to know what they need to do, where they can get support, where they can access the information that's required.

Okay, thank you for that. I think the message is clear, but just to add, perhaps, I think the point that you made was that the risk in moving forward as four nations is that we can only move as quickly as the weakest partner will allow us to. Is that the risk?

Yes, that's always a risk, of course. In a way, if you want to gain from the best practice, or worst practice, of every country, there is an element where differences can be useful in that context. But that has to be—. There is a trade-off there.

Yes. I understand that point, and the point has been made clearly. Thank you. So, just finally from myself, unless somebody else wants to come in on something different, what more needs to be done now if we want to move to a genuinely circular economy by 2050? We've got the trajectory that the Government has set out, but, from the FSB perspective, what needs to happen in addition or differently to push us on that journey in a way that works for you?

We understand, of course, that small businesses have quite a big part to play in that, because we are 99 per cent of businesses, as we say all the time, I'm sure. It's clear that small businesses need to be part of the solution to this problem. We need to understand, though, what small businesses can do, how they can—. They can respond in quite an agile way, they can turn to good practice very quickly when they are allowed to do so, and that's the problem, I think. Sometimes we think that we talk from the top down, as it were, and everything will work its way down. But, in truth, what we need to work out is how we co-ordinate and work with small businesses, where are those touch points, that they're local, they are through Business Wales, and that they're though all kinds of ways, really, so that we can use every touch point to show how we can help small businesses to develop by making this transition, but also to make a difference and for them to understand how they themselves can make a difference. I think, at the moment, there's a danger that the story they're being told is, 'Just do this,' rather than, 'Do this with us.' So, I think that's the message, really: make sure that we talk to small businesses, understand their perspectives and get a better policy as a result.

You referred to some statistics at the beginning, and I refer back to the written evidence. You said that 73 per cent of small businesses in Wales feel they have a responsibility to become more sustainable, but only 24 per cent knew or felt that they knew about the environmental policies of the Government. That 73 per cent believed that they had a responsibility to be more sustainable surprised me as being a low figure. Over a quarter, therefore, feel that they don't have a responsibility to do that. Is that something that perhaps takes us beyond explaining how to do something, but that we still need to convince people?

I'm sure that's true for small businesses, and also for society as a whole. Individuals in small businesses have different perspectives. But it's important to note that, in compiling the research, different questions were posed; it was part of a question that asked whether small businesses had responsibility to help with sustainability, Welsh Government with—. So, it's possible that some of them said, 'Well, it's not our responsibility, it's theirs.'

The Government leading on it, yes.

That does not necessarily mean that they think that they don't have to do anything. They just think the Government should lead. But, it's interesting, if 73 per cent was the one for small businesses, 42 per cent was the one saying it was the Government only, in a way. So, the figure is quite good, in a way, in that it shows to a large extent that small businesses want to make that difference, and I think we need to take advantage of that.

Yes, okay. It's good that you've put that into context, and, of course, it's a responsibility for everybody, not one or the other.

Yes, of course.

Yes, okay. Right. That's it. May I thank you for the evidence that we have received, once more? It will be an important contribution to the work that we're doing on this subject, and, of course, we will now go on to look at everything that we've heard and look to make recommendations to the Government. We will come back to this when we scrutinize the Cabinet Secretary in a while. So, may I thank you, Llŷr, for being with us this afternoon? Thank you very much.

Thank you very much.

Okay. The committee will continue with its work and the next item on the agenda is papers to note. May I invite the committee to note the papers together? All content to do that? Yes. Thank you very much.

So, we'll go on to item seven, and I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi) and (ix), that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting and the start of the meeting on 26 June. Are Members content? Yes. All content. Okay. We'll wait a few seconds until we're in private session. Thank you very much.