Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Lesley Griffiths. I'm the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice.

Jeremy.

Jeremy Miles. Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language.

Paul.

Bore da. I'm Paul Kindred. I'm the divisional deputy of the culture division in the Welsh Government.

Fantastic. Tom.

And I'm Tom Smithson. I'm deputy director for economic strategy and regulation.

It's lovely to have all four of you here this morning. We'll move straight to questions if that is okay, and I'll go first of all to the Minister—no, not the Minister, to the Cabinet Secretary. I'll go to Jeremy, first of all. In your previous role, when you were looking at European transition, you said in February 2021 that the trade and co-operation agreement was nothing like the agreement that the Welsh Government would have liked to have seen. Years later now, what is your opinion of these arrangements, in terms of the effect that they're having on the creative industry—people who work creatively in Wales?

Well, this is a lesson, isn't it, that your quotes from the past come back in future. At the time, we were entirely clear that the UK Government strategy in terms of the TCA was never going to lead to something that was sufficient on any level, truth be told. And I had a very strong sense at the time that anything related to the realm of ensuring that people would be able to move easily around Europe would be something that the UK Government would oppose having an ambitious strategy in relation to. So, I think that we're seeing the impact and results of that in what is currently happening. So, what I forecast at that time has come to pass.

The new barriers and frustrations, certainly, in terms of moving goods and services, in terms of visas, in terms of remaining in specific countries, and people having an understanding of the rules and regulations, have complicated the landscape very significantly. I had a professional background in this field in terms of the creative sector before becoming Minister, and the conditions are certainly very different now. I think it's true to say that the artists who travel here from the European Union face, perhaps, fewer barriers and frustrations than perhaps our artists travelling to the European Union. So, that is something that is very disappointing for us.

I think it's particularly burdensome on smaller companies or freelance artists—those who are starting out in their careers, where perhaps they don't have the network of support and advice that is needed to be able to operate successfully in this field. And there are frustrations and barriers in terms of qualifications in this context as well.

So, there are several issues that do cause barriers and frustrations, and I think that anecdotal evidence, at least—and it is an area where more research is needed—that the sector is finding it difficult. And I know that you've heard that evidence directly too.

Thank you very much. You spoke about complications there. Well, this is a question for both of you, as this area is one that runs across the responsibilities of several Cabinet Secretaries here in Wales, but also some of the Ministers in Westminster. Some aspects of this are devolved matters; some are for Westminster. So, what effect—? What are the implications of that complexity, in your opinion? That's for either of you.

Well, just to say, if I may, there's a good example here of how complex the responsibilities are. Even though I lead on issues regarding the TCA, Hannah Blythyn leads on the creative sector. So, there is complexity in that regard. But, you're also right to say that some things have been reserved and some matters have been devolved, so there's complexity in relation to that, too. Our function is to ensure, as a Government, that we make the case, if you will, to the UK Government in the context of their relationship with the European Union. The challenge, I think, in practical terms is prioritising all of those issues that we have to make the argument for in the context of the TCA. So, we set out the priorities for the UK Government. I think, on the whole, they have been raising these issues over the past period, as it happens, but, at the end of the day, unfortunately, we're in their hands in terms of negotiating that relationship in direct terms.

I would also say that the relationship, of course, between the Government in Westminster and the European Union has been a difficult one. I think the situation has improved since the Windsor framework came into being, and I think, in that context, perhaps there has been more collaboration. But, at the end of the day, what we can do is to make the case, and the UK Government has to prioritise within those areas.

Thank you for that. I think Alun wanted to come in here.

Yes. You have described the situation as it is and the structures that do exist. Whether we like it or not, I understand that. But, there is a role for Welsh Ministers here to knock on the doors of the Ministers in Westminster and to tell them clearly what the priorities are for Wales, and the Government's priorities, too. How have you been doing that? How have you been holding or insisting on having discussions with the specific Ministers concerned in Westminster to make sure that Wales's voice is heard during these discussions?

Is that a question for me?

Yes.

Well, we do have a list of priorities with regard to the TCA in general. We do have to ensure that we use every opportunity that we have to push that agenda. We are doing that.

So, how many meetings have there been at a ministerial level? Maybe it's easier for you to write to us with this information, but I just want to understand—and I do understand what you're saying—how that looks in practical terms. How many ministerial meetings have there been to discuss these things? How much contact has there been between officials to discuss these things? How is the Welsh Government actually doing this?

Fine. We don't have that information today. Also, I've just come into this post, but I'm happy to write to the committee with that information.

Please.

Okay. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you for that.

Did you want to add anything?

Yes, I will add that, for me, the main route is, obviously, through inter-governmental relations, the IMGs, the inter-ministerial groups, and also officials meet, obviously, regularly between the two Governments. So, like Jeremy, this is a new post for me, but certainly, in my previous portfolio, I had one IMG with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which worked very, very well up until probably the last nine months when I was in it. We'd had a quick succession of new Secretaries of State at DEFRA. I didn't actually meet either of the last two, which shows you how that relationship had broken down between the two Governments.

Coming into this portfolio, there are a plethora of IMGs that I will be attending, but one of the most important ones for this part of the portfolio was an IMG for culture and creative industries, which actually has never taken place. So, it was something I pushed for straight away, because I accept that there is far more co-ordination needed between the four countries. And, of course, now Northern Ireland has a functioning Government, it's really important that you hear from them as well. So, we actually did have the inaugural culture and creative industries IMG, I think, two weeks ago. And it's become very apparent very quickly that there are different priorities between the four Governments, so it's very important that when the UK Government is representing the UK at a meeting that they understand what your priorities are. So, it was quite a productive meeting, I think it's fair to say, but, for me, that's the most important thing. And officials do work well, I think, at that level, so it's really important that they're there and that they can take your priorities and views to the Ministers there.

Thank you very much. Before we move on—I know that other Members are eager to come in—I just wanted to raise a bit of a concern that we had about the written evidence that we've received from the Government. There were quite a few sections that, it seems, were copied and pasted from what we received from Wales Arts International. Could you reassure us that—? I appreciate that you're very new to this, but could you reassure us, in terms of how the department is working on this, that that isn't going to be indicative of the confidence that the sector can have in the work that the Government is doing on this?

Yes, absolutely. I'm very surprised to hear that. Obviously, it was before, as you say, I came into portfolio. My only assumption is that perhaps the Welsh Government went to Wales Arts International for some information and perhaps the same information was used. But, yes, I can assure you that it won't happen again.

Thank you very much for that.

We'll move on to Llyr.

Thank you. Just going back to the inter-ministerial groups, because we, as Members, receive a note, don't we, when those take place, which says next to nothing, to all intents and purposes—it just says who was in the room and what the theme was, and nothing about the actual discussions. Have these matters been raised previously in any of these meetings? Maybe that underlines the fact that we need more information in terms of what's discussed rather than just getting the theme, such as 'international relations were discussed', and that's it.

Yes, meetings were held last September, in March and in the last few weeks, and these issues have been raised in those meetings in terms of visas, in terms of Creative Europe in particular. I think it's true to say that, before the agreement came in terms of the Windsor framework, many of the discussions in those meetings related to citizens' rights, but, since that time, I think the relationship has improved, so it has opened up opportunities to have those wider discussions. The priorities of the sector have been raised in those meetings too.

Did you feel, therefore, that there was a readiness to look at the situation and respond in a constructive way to these challenges, or did you feel that, perhaps, the attitude we have seen in the past is still too stubborn?

I don't think that there's a great deal of evidence that's come to hand that there's been a change of climate, if you will. There will be a review soon of how the TCA is being implemented, so there will be a formal opportunity in that context. But one of the challenges, I believe, to be entirely clear about it, is that the Government's response in general terms is that this isn't something that's within the ambit of the TCA. So, even though our predecessors raised this issue in some of the meetings, that priority of keeping the TCA as a limited-scope vehicle from the point of view of the UK Government is a challenge in general.

Okay. Thanks for that. Could I ask the culture Secretary: do you see that there are variations in the effect that we feel in Wales compared to other parts of the UK when it comes to the impact of Brexit? Are there any specific disadvantages for us in Wales that maybe wouldn't exist in other parts of the UK in this context?

I certainly haven't come across that in this portfolio at all, but I have to say that I don't think anybody has raised issues around Brexit with me since I've been in this portfolio. The only thing I can think that we mentioned about the European Union was, as you know, I recently visited the national museum in Cardiff and we were talking about the transport of paintings back and forth between Europe and Wales, but I would imagine that that would be a similar issue for England and Scotland, and, certainly, Northern Ireland.

Okay. Since we are where we are and the big promise was, of course, that, if Brexit were to happen, it would open up new opportunities for us beyond the European Union, have you identified any advantages for the creative sector in Wales that have improved from the point of view of engaging with opportunities beyond the European Union since Brexit?

No. I mean, certainly in the culture sector, I would say 'no'. When I attended the IMG, we were talking about movement and touring companies et cetera, but clearly, as Jeremy said, that freedom of movement has gone, and we know that, for a touring company to go into Europe, they have to make sure that they have the right visa, that border control could be different; they're very much, I would say, the same issues for everybody. But I haven't come across any opportunities, really.

I agree with the question that you ask. I don't think that membership of the European Union was a limitation on anything that we were doing, so I've never seen that argument. Just to add something in terms of my role in terms of the Welsh language, I think that there has been a retrograde step in that regard in terms of the Welsh-medium sector, because we've lost out on things such as the collaboration, programmes such as INTERREG and so on, which provided opportunities for the Welsh-medium sector to be able to collaborate internationally. There is less of that, certainly, happening since the changes that we've seen.

It might be worth—. I don't know, and perhaps Jeremy might know more, but, obviously, there are EU programmes—. I'm thinking of Horizon, and there's obviously Creative Europe; it could be that Hannah is looking to see if there are opportunities that—. It may be great if it we could join it again, but, certainly, there might be something that she can take out of it.

Are you confident that you as a Government are making the case strongly enough to the UK Government? Because when you look at the state of that relationship in terms of the cultural relationship, the opportunities that are lost, the economic effect, the effect in terms of cultural understanding, all of that richness that is lost in both directions, and the economic impact, as I was saying—. Should we not have kicked the door down from the point of view of UK Government? Even David Frost, Lord Frost, said that something that he had rejected from the point of view of visa arrangements and so on, because he wanted to protect the borders of the UK, is now saying that the situation is excessively bureaucratic. So, I would think that if someone like him has changed his opinion on this then you should be pushing on that door, but I'm not getting the impression that you're giving enough of a hit on that door.

I don't think it's fair to say that. I have personal experience of having discussions with David Frost on this, and, to be entirely clear, these are the kind of arguments that I was making at that time, and there was no agreement at all in terms of these alternative arrangements. You're entirely right to say that he's realised now that that was a misstep, but as I say, the stance of the Government is that the TCA is limited and that this is something outwith the TCA, and that stance continues, unfortunately.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, we’ll move to Alun.

Thank you.

Oh, forgive me. I think Carolyn wanted to come in.

You said earlier that there have been lots of Secretaries to deal with in the UK Government. So, is that instability an issue? So, you’re not able to knock on the doors, are you, or bang on the doors and say about joining Creative Wales. We heard earlier—well, read in the document—. Creative—not Creative Wales, Creative Europe. The funding’s increased significantly. It’s unbelievable the amount of money that’s gone in and now we’re not able to access it. But you’re not able to bang on the doors, are you, of anybody in the UK Government, if they keep changing and there’s no relationship built up. So, is that an issue for you? Is there a lack of—

Absolutely, and I think I mentioned that we’d had the inaugural culture and creative industries IMG, and I think my predecessor Dawn Bowden had been really pressing for that, but, because there’d been change in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport—. And I mentioned that, in DEFRA, something that had worked very, very well, suddenly we had three Secretaries of State probably in four months—well, that’s really difficult; it’s difficult for them to obviously—

This grant funding seems so important. We met with the gaming industry last week; we did a visit. And the money from Creative Wales is just so important to get them going, so not to access this European funding is, you know—.

So, Wales will have had a huge amount of money from those European programmes. It’s now gone into—. Is it global? As I say, it’s not in our portfolios, but it’s a global fund, and we’re not getting anything, really, like we were.

I think Llyr wants to ask something briefly, and then we’ll have to move on.

[Inaudible.]—about that, you’ve referenced a few times how well certain interministerial groups are working, although maybe Ministers come and go, and there’s a better relationship with some or other. Does it came down to the individual, at the end of the day, if there is a willingness to really make it work? Because if that is the case then it suggests to me that the system isn’t working, is it?

I think that certainly has an impact. As I mentioned, I think officials work at a much better level, probably, than sometimes the Ministers do. But, ultimately, if you get to know somebody in your work—. So, I'll use George Eustice as an example. I built up a very good relationship with him. Don't get me wrong, there were lots of differences of opinion, but you at least felt that you went, your voice was heard, he took your views into consideration. I was due to have an IMG last week on the social justice part of the portfolio; it was postponed two hours beforehand—you know, with the Home Secretary. It's not great. You prepare for it and then suddenly you're not able to give those views. I'm not saying officials don't take them forward, but, really, you need that ministerial connection to make sure that they understand what Welsh Government priorities are.

And the importance. Sorry, Chair—

Okay.

—but the equal importance they should be giving to a devolved nation, to Wales, to have that—. If they have that governance and that power of rejoining or having that partnership and we're not allowed to do it directly, and we haven't got the funding or whatever, they should give you equal standing and importance at the table, so I'm pretty annoyed at that.

Diolch, Carolyn.

There's a queue. [Laughter.]

Alun.

Yes. The collapse of the political leadership of the United Kingdom Government is clearly an issue for all of us. The descriptions of relationships with UK Ministers is not the historical experience, of course. It's something that is very different at the moment and has become the norm, in many ways. But we're in a period of change, aren't we? We're expecting the United Kingdom election in the autumn, and a change of Government, fingers crossed. We're also seeing the European elections taking place at the moment. So, we will, by the end of this year, have two different administrations in both Brussels and in London, and that creates an opportunity, of course.

Now, I'm reminded, Jeremy, that you were the Minister for European Transition, I think that was the title, at the time the TCA was agreed. Now, you will then—. And as an education Minister I know you were a regular visitor to Brussels in that portfolio. So, you will have had an opportunity at a very close level to see the operation of the TCA. Now you have responsibility for co-ordination of Welsh Government activity around the TCA. I'm interested in how you intend to apply that experience through this period running up to the renegotiation or the review of the TCA next year.

I think there are two aspects, really. One is to do with structures and one is to do with policy priority, if you like. So, we've set out those areas where, with an opportunity to revisit the TCA, which I absolutely agree with you is on the horizon, thankfully, those priorities—. And I'm also the energy Minister, and energy co-operation is one of those priorities. Necessarily, as a Government, you've got to identify the order in which you press the case and one of the factors in that decision is the breadth of the economic impact of those priorities, but, as I was saying to Llyr earlier, that's the current context. When you have that opportunity, if you like, to revisit, whether it's within the TCA, or outside it, we can press, if you like, a longer list of priorities. That's the policy position.

On the practice, if you like, the Welsh Government are observers in meetings in relation to the operation of the TCA. You will know from your own experience as a Minister going to Europe that, actually, in devolved matters, you will have been in the room directly working with European counterparts. I think there's a strong case for Welsh Ministers being participants in those discussions in a reformed structure. Now, the implementation—. The review that is coming up shortly is an implementation review as of today, but I would very much hope that, with a new Government here, hopefully, and after the elections in Europe, that there would be a willingness to look again at a more substantive review of that. I think that would be a great opportunity for us as a country.

And if I might—Alun, forgive me interrupting you—our committee has previously supported full participation. If you have a document with your current thinking, if you could share that with us, we'd be very grateful. Forgive me, Alun.

No, that's—. It's interesting that you're thinking in those terms, Cabinet Secretary. But we do then have a period—. Because we're not expecting the new EU structures to be in place much before the autumn—or, in fact, they won't be before the autumn—at the same time as the UK elections. So, we've got certainly the second half of this year to actually think about these things. So, I'm interested as to what policy thinking is taking place within the Welsh Government to prepare for any review of the TCA. I very much agree with the approach that you were indicating in your previous answer that, when you've got, hopefully, grown-ups in the room, and when you've got goodwill on both sides, you can achieve far more than the position we were in four years ago, when we didn't have that ability to negotiate with the European Union—I mean as the UK. So, what preparatory work is taking place within Welsh Government to prepare for that?

Well, it's across a range of portfolio areas, isn't it, so, in terms of—

Yes, but you're taking a lead, I imagine, yes?

I'm sorry?

But you are taking the lead, yes?

Well, the policy thinking is happening in individual portfolios, but there will be, when we have an opportunity to engage on the TCA itself—. Currently, that isn't an imminent—. You know, there will need to be a review mechanism for that and there isn't, obviously, one that is imminent at the moment. But, as we get closer to that, then there obviously will be a more joined-up strategy, bringing together the priorities across each of the portfolios in the Government, in a way, similar to the work that we were doing four years ago, I think.

Yes, yes. But you're not leading a thought process on that at the moment.

Yes. That work is under way at the moment, around what that might look like, but, in terms of the imminence of that bearing fruit, clearly there isn't an opportunity at this point.

Okay. So, in terms of developing your thinking on the TCA, at the moment, there is a sense that this is a review, as you've said, of the implementation. So, quite a narrow-based review of it.

Yes.

Now, there is the opportunity, of course, to open that up if there's goodwill on both sides of the table. Would you wish to see a wider, more fundamental review of the TCA, of the operation of the TCA, or would you prefer this sort of narrower approach?

I think I've made my position, probably, clear on my approach to the relationship between the UK and the European Union on previous occasions.

You have.

So, you won't be surprised to hear that I would make the case for a broader review of it, because I think that is an opportunity for us to address some of the things that we are discussing today. But, ultimately, clearly, that will be a decision that the UK Government will take with the European Union, and we will make the case for a more ambitious approach.

Okay. In terms of—. I'm grateful to you for that. But, in terms of that preparatory work, I'm interested, therefore, in how you will demonstrate the place of the TCA in the Welsh experience. I use that word in its widest sense, because the Cabinet Secretary for culture can talk about the human experience of people who are unable to travel in the way that they did beforehand and how an opportunity to increase that sort of contact would benefit others. In a previous portfolio, of course, you could have raised the issue about mobility of youth and the Taith example. So, I don't just mean the economic impact that we can count more easily, but I'm interested as to what work the Welsh Government is doing to understand—in my view and, I'd expect, your view, Cabinet Secretary—the damage that the current TCA agreement does to Wales, and I'm sure you've got economists who can give you the economic background to that, but also, then, the wider human impact, which the Cabinet Secretary for culture can also be a part of, but also other Ministers as well in the Welsh Government, who can actually understand how the current operation of the TCA is damaging Wales.

Yes, I think, on the—. The case we made when we were facing departure from the European Union was evidence-led and it was very rigorously tested and we worked with stakeholders in a range of sectors to understand the impact that they faced. The point I made to the Chair earlier is I think that, within the sectors that we're discussing today, certainly from a creative industries perspective, there is a need for more research. You've had good evidence from the sector around the impact on them, but I do think there is a case for more granular research, which would feed in to the point that you're making. But I might ask Tom to give a sense of where, across the Government, that evidence building is working at the moment.

Yes. I think, as the Cabinet Secretary said, the discussions up to fairly recently have been very limited with the UK Government, I think, as of the March meeting of the interministerial group, that's the point at which Welsh Government has been able to put forward some of the things the Cabinet Secretary talked about in terms of longer term priorities. With a new set of Ministers, a new Cabinet, I think we will be looking at what work is now needed in preparation for the TCA review. That will need to be informed by the positions of the incoming UK Government. I think there is an entire process that we need to go through. Because we work in partnership, that would involve capturing the lived experiences, the views, from our various sectors and stakeholders. We do get those in at the moment, they do feed in, but I think our focus up to now has been quite narrow on where we could influence the UK Government where there are specific issues within the TCA that the UK and the EU would be willing to negotiate on.

Finally from me, the direct relationship between the Welsh Government and the European Union is something that this committee has always regarded as an absolute priority. The committee has certainly welcomed—I was going to say successive Welsh Governments, because we've been through this over a couple of years now—investment in the Welsh Government office in Brussels, and I presume that that investment will be maintained within the current administration. Also, of course, we've invested in Derek Vaughan, a truly remarkable civil servant who's doing fantastic work for the Welsh Government and for Wales in Brussels. Certainly, this committee has benefited from his wise counsel, shall we say, over a number of years, and we hope to continue to do so. I'd be interested to understand whether either Cabinet Secretary has plans to visit Brussels in the near future and whether you have worked up any priorities for the direct engagement between yourselves and the institutions of the European Union.

I haven't got any immediate plans to visit Brussels, but what I've asked officials to do—. Obviously, they're our closest neighbour, and it's really important we continue to build relationships with them. I think, in the culture, arts and sport part of the portfolio, there are lots of opportunities to use sport—football, rugby, and the Olympics are in Paris this year—to make sure that we are able to really showcase Wales on that global stage. And the same with music as well. I declare an interest as the Member of the Senedd for Wrexham, but at the weekend, we had a festival called Focus Wales, which has, over the last 15 years or so now, just got bigger and bigger. We welcome bands from right across Europe—right across the world, actually, but certainly across Europe—to Wrexham, to Wales, and it's really important to carry on those links. So, I've asked officials to look at what opportunities there are in relation to that. I'm sure Derek will have some views that he will be able to bring to the table. But I think sport is incredibly powerful, music is incredibly powerful, so if we can build on that I think that would be a great opportunity.

I was a frequent visitor during my time as education Minister, not least because of the calling card that we had with Taith, which I think was incredibly well received and was a good signal, I think, of the Government's seriousness of intent. Given that it was such a significantly funded programme, that had a ready audience, if you like, for a broader set of discussions and a broader relationship.

In this portfolio, I haven't got a date in the diary yet, but there are many, many areas within the portfolio where making our case as a country to partners will be important, and hearing their perspectives as well. So, in addition to the work that we do around our experience of the borders, which is within my portfolio, there are also questions around the digital agenda, data adequacy, which we were discussing yesterday in the Chamber. The energy co-operation agenda is a very significant one and a very important area of opportunity for us, and also actually the Welsh language part of the portfolio.

I think that we perhaps haven't done enough in the space of highlighting to partners in the European Union just how innovative we've been in terms of language policy, in particular around something I know that you're interested in, Alun, language and technology, which actually we're doing a lot of innovative thinking on. I think that has the potential of playing the same role that Taith has done in demonstrating a deeper commitment as well. The thinking was how to prioritise which of those areas to press.

I'm grateful to you for that, Cabinet Secretary. I think Wales has an opportunity to create a new approach to minority language and technology, actually, because of the work that you've described. I think that the opportunity to do that alongside other minority linguistic populations across the European Union actually makes a more powerful case. I think that's a very important point to lead on, and perhaps that's something we can return to in future sessions.

I was interested in the letter you received—I can't remember the date of it, I'm afraid, but I think it was from Julia Lopez, the Minister in the UK Government—on data management. She said to you in correspondence that the policy of the United Kingdom Government was to remain as close to EU standards as possible. That's not quite what you hear in the media from UK Ministers, but I thought it was an interesting paragraph in the correspondence to you. That indicates to me that notwithstanding the rhetoric from the United Kingdom Government, the actual policy of the United Kingdom Government is to shadow EU standards and EU policy, certainly in data management. Correct me if I've got it wrong, but that's certainly what she seemed to be saying.

That implies that the Welsh Government needs to invest not just in people, but in time and resource in understanding the policy developments in the EU, because six months down the road, or a year down the road, we're going to have to be implementing them ourselves here, because if you are shadowing, and if you are going to maintain a close link to the European Union, which is the sensible thing to do, of course, then we need to understand where the European Union's going in the future, which implies, from you as the economy Minister, greater not less investment in our relationship.

Yes. And in a world where resources weren't an issue, obviously we'd be doing as much of that as possible, but there are choice that, frankly, have to be made. Just on the substantive point that you're making, because I think it is a really important point that you make about the distinction between what is sometimes a public approach and a private approach, that may be true in general, but, I think, if you look at the discussion we had in the Chamber yesterday in relation to the legislative consent memorandum, I think we should be cautious about accepting that premise in its entirety. The redefinition of personal data to include health data does have worrying implications. I don't think we need to be immediately concerned, but—

It was the relationship between the UK and the EU I was concerned about—

Right. Understood. One of the issues, I think, going back to the point we were making earlier, is that closer alignment between the two Governments on some of these developments would be helpful, from our point of view.

Diolch. In the former Deputy Minister's evidence, it says that the EU is of the view that the UK has no particular basis to make a claim for flexibilities because it chose to be outside the EU. Do you know when the Welsh Government learned of that position, please?

I'm afraid I don't, but we can—

If you could check and write to us, that would be useful, please, and if there's been any development—

Tom's going to come in.

I think it was covered in the very first meeting of the trade and co-operation agreement partnership council. To be fair to the UK Government, they've raised it in every single meeting since, and trade specialised committees. I think the EU set out their position at that point, and have repeated it every time—that some of these issues, in their opinion, are outside of the trade and co-operation agreement: they have been through negotiation during the establishment of the TCA and there's not a willingness to negotiate.

Thank you, Tom—that's useful. Do you think that there's a fundamental problem or issue here with the terms of the TCA? Because I know the former First Minister has told us that the Welsh Government's area of focus with the TCA was on making it work as effectively as possible, but the evidence that we received from Professor Catherine Barnard told us that just isn't possible, because the TCA is so limited in relation to what we're talking about today, because there was an explicit decision made not to include these elements. So, do you think that there's just something fundamental about the TCA that means that it cannot work effectively for these sectors?

On the TCA generally?

Well, in terms of—. Yes.

My reflection, having been there when it was put in place, and having picked up responsibility for it again, is that, in a sense, both those propositions can be true, can't they? So, the former First Minister saying, ‘This is the world that we are in today, and the best we can do is make sure the TCA works as far as it possibly can’ is not inconsistent with a view that says the TCA is—. I think we’ve been using language about ‘limited’. I would say it’s fundamentally inadequate to meet the needs of Wales. So, I think those two things are consistent. I think the example the committee’s looking at today is one of many examples on which we anticipated there’d be an issue, and sadly, it has come to pass.

Thank you.

We'll move on to Carolyn.

Unless—forgive me—culture Secretary, you wanted to come back in on that.

I would agree with Jeremy, certainly, having had experience in a couple of departments on that. And I think that's why the upcoming review is so important. I think on the point that Alun and Jeremy were making, that this is a kind of technical exercise at the moment—that's what the UK Government are saying, that's what the European Union are saying—hopefully, with a new UK Government, we can push to have that far wider review than just a technical one.

Thank you. Carolyn.

Thank you. In evidence to the inquiry, the Minister described steps taken by the UK Government to support the sector, including providing practical support, simplified requirements and various funding initiatives. From the evidence we've heard from the stakeholders, that is not enough. It's really complicated, and there are problems. Can I just ask you, though, what steps has the Welsh Government taken to support the sector since the TCA came into force in January 2021? And how has the Welsh Government engaged with the sector on these matters?

When you refer to 'the sector'—

The people involved in the creative industries.

Clearly, the loss of access to what, when I was in the sector, was called the media programme, but it’s called Creative Europe now, has been a significant loss, both for the creative industries, but also, as I understand it, for the culture sector as well. But we’ve launched Creative Wales, as you will know, in Wales, which has, I think, done great work in supporting the creative industries in Wales. It’s one of our booming economies in terms both of employment but also growth as well, and there have been new bespoke funding streams to seek to mitigate the loss of the European Union-funded programme. That covers different streams for games, animation, as well as the more established ones in tv and film and music. So, those are there. There is direct support to artists to showcase around the world. There's a little under £10 million investment in the music industry, a little over £19 million invested into the creative skills fund, so I think within the limits of the budget that we have at our disposal, we have, I think, provided significant funding through Creative Wales, and that has actually borne fruit, I think, through the success of the sector.

From the culture sector point of view, from Creative Europe, from that European funding that you were referring to before, I think we had about €1.9 million, but there is no bespoke funding from the UK Government now for the culture sector.

And issues for performers—we've heard a lot from those regarding moving across countries. Even if they could move themselves, it's moving the goods that was such a huge issue, lack of consistency at borders, the complication of filling in forms, trying to find forms and information. So, just regarding assessment of availability of information for Wales-based creative workers and those touring cross-border after Brexit, would you have a role in improving this? Could you help make sure that information could be better, more easily accessible, or available more simply? We have artists of all different levels here, and it can be really complicated. It does stop especially new artists, who are just getting into the industry—it does put them off.

Yes, I agree with you, and I think in Wales we've got some very small companies that, as you say, don't have the resources to be able to access that information. We've got Arts Infopoint UK, which helps artists coming into the country, as well as the other way. I think, certainly, one of the issues is that, from last month, now UK orchestras aren't able to claim tax relief on performances in the EEA. So, that, I know, has had a massive impact on musicians. I heard that from I think it was the Musicians Union last week. So, that's had an impact. Obviously, different countries have different visa requirements, and particularly if you're a one-man band, it's really hard to do that. So, we have helped, as I say, with Arts Infopoint UK, and certainly I've had a few meetings with different parts of the culture sector. It is becoming a barrier I think it's fair to say, and we need to make sure that the UK Government understand that from a visa point of view. When I do eventually meet the Home Secretary, I will certainly be making that point.

I think what was also discussed was to develop amongst themselves that cultural understanding and learning from other countries within the EU as well, and expanding their cultural depth and knowledge, and musical knowledge or whatever, it's really important to be able to interact, but also to flow through. Sometimes, they'll start off in one country and then move to another as opportunities arise, but they're unable to do that now going forward very often, which is a big issue. So, have you engaged with the sector, as we have as well, and this is what you're hearing too, so you're able to raise all this going forward?

Yes, absolutely. One of the things I've been asked to do—Jeremy could help as well—is to push for visa-free status for artists within the EU. I'm going to meet with Wales Arts International to get an update on that, to see what further work we can do in relation to that. I think we need to look—and I know Jeremy is leading on the international strategy—at what we can do within the international strategy to help.

Okay, thank you. It seems like we need to go back to the smooth movement of people and equipment, and everything. We heard from one performer, actually somebody who organised for larger bands and performers, how instead of taking equipment from the UK and travelling with it, they're having to employ people in other countries, which is really complicated, and it's not cost-effective, not good really for us as an economy. So, lots and lots of issues. Is there anything else that you feel that you're doing to actually overcome the impact of Brexit regarding making sure they've got access to information? Is there anything that's happening there?

I mentioned Arts Infopoint UK. Wales Arts International certainly help with information. If you look on the website, there's information about different visa requirements, different border control issues going into—. It's not even just one set of requirements; different countries have different sets. So, we've made that available. When I met with the Arts Council of Wales a couple of weeks ago, it wasn't raised with me, but, as I say, I will have a catch-up with Wales Arts International because they're probably the ones that have the most concerns.

And what I feel as well is that Wales, as a Celtic nation, we've done things differently here like the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and other small nations and countries are really interested in what we're doing. And when you say we're an observer at the table and not a participant, that really worries me and concerns me, because we've got so much here to give in Wales that other countries want to learn from, and in Europe especially, as our closest neighbour. We have strong links with Ireland, Ireland-Wales, and then direct to Europe and the small nations, that this really worries me. How can you grow those relationships with other countries in Europe directly, rather than, sorry, having to go through the UK Government who are not at the table and not listening?

So, it's really important that we have events that enable that to happen. So, we had an event last month up at Galeri Caernarfon, called the cultural mobility forum, and that's where this sort of information can be shared with people from overseas. So, it is really important that we do still continue to reach out, and I think we've certainly been able to do that. Wales Arts International, we work with them and we put funding in with the other UK Governments to make sure that—. As I say, we've got that Arts Infopoint UK initiative, where there is lots of information to bring forward. There are websites. And I think that's where artists and performers can come to say what barriers they're facing, what challenges they've got, to help us help them.

Okay. Thank you.

I do think we shouldn't underestimate the point that Alun Davies was making earlier about that network of connections at a European Union level being really important. So, Taith is an example, but also, now that we are back in Horizon, there are opportunities through that as well. Wales is involved in the Vanguard Initiative, which is around research. So, there's a range of fora and relationships and networks that we engage very, very proactively in, as well as all the sub-national regional Governments across Europe, where we have good relations with a number of those, and have had for a very, very long time. I think those provide a good foundation for some of the things that you're talking about as well.

Okay.

Forgive me, Carolyn, Llyr wants to come in, but just before I bring Llyr in—and I know Alun wants to come in at the end as well—it sounds from what you were saying, Cabinet Secretary, that that would be making the case for a Welsh Government-EU strategy. Do you think that there should be a strategy between the Welsh Government and the EU—well, a strategy for that work specifically, rather than it just being part of the international?

A strategy for what, did you say?

For Welsh Government-EU relations.

Well, we have those relations already. The EU's formal relationship with the United Kingdom is through the UK Government, and that's obviously going to be the case. I was making the case in the discussion with Alun Davies earlier for a different approach to how the TCA could be operated in the future, but that's not a case that currently has an audience, unfortunately. But I think it is really important that we continue what we're already doing, in terms of maintaining, nurturing, building on those relationships, and being confident in doing that. Carolyn Thomas was talking about the future generations Act, and there's a lot of interest internationally in that, as well as a range of the other things we've talked about today as well.

Thank you very much. I think Llyr wants to come in on this point.

I wanted to pick up on the international strategy too, if I can, and just ask in what way that is going to make a difference to the creative sector, because we're still facing the same challenges and the same barriers as we try to deliver, aren't we?

Yes. Well, the issues that we're discussing today are a subset of that more generally, aren't they? So, our priority as a Government to support the creative sector is clear, I think, from the evidence that we've given today. We see that there is a huge advantage in that in terms of international relationships. The culture of Wales, our creative sectors, are part of that international calling card as well, I think. So, it is a priority part of the international strategy too.

But do we see in the strategy and in that approach a shift in the emphasis between operating and relationships within the European Union and more emphasis on beyond the EU? That is, again, that comes with the same sorts of barriers and the same challenges, anyway, which have always existed perhaps, but has the balance changed a little bit in terms of that equation?

I think that what's happened, in terms of the creative sectors, is that the changes in the European landscape have minimised that opportunity as compared to what would have been possible otherwise. But the sector has always had an international focus, I would argue, in Wales.

Thank you for that. We'll go to Carolyn, and then Alun. Carolyn.

Do you think that the UK Government takes the creative and arts sector seriously, or is the thing just investment in the big industries, rather than the importance of culture and arts? That's a big question.

So, certainly—. As I say, I've met Lucy Frazer once, and it was in an inter-ministerial group with Scotland and Northern Ireland Ministers as well, and I would say absolutely they do. And they also understood that it was really important to recognise that the four Governments would have different priorities. I think it's fair to say that we all recognise the very difficult, challenging times that the sectors are facing at the moment, and it's no different, I would say, in any of those countries around funding. So, yes, I would say that they do recognise it as a very important sector.

Okay.

Very briefly, Llyr.

But there is some sort of accepted collateral damage, given that they have other and more important dogmatic priorities, maybe, some would say.

That didn't come over to me, but then when you're talking to the Secretary of State—. You know, we're all very parochial when we're Cabinet Secretaries, or Secretaries of State, of our own departments. So, I certainly didn't get that impression, no.

Just two points. On the specific point from the creative industries' point of view, there have been initiatives like the global screen fund, which the UK Government has set up, to try and plug some of the gaps that have otherwise arisen, and, actually, there's been a low level of awards to Welsh companies in that, but there's been a low level of applications from Welsh companies as well. There's actually a conference that's coming up in a few weeks, where Creative Wales and the British Film Institute and Ffilm Cymru are working together to raise the profile of this. So, in a sense, some of it's taking full advantage of the funding that may be there already, and making sure that's more effectively communicated and sought, really.

Can I just come back on that? When we met the creative industries and the gaming sector a fortnight ago, they were talking about a big conference in San Francisco they all go to, and they were saying, 'We'd love one in Wales; we'd like Wales to be a hub.' Could we do more in Wales for them? So, I'll just get that in now, thank you, while you're here.

Thanks for the suggestion. Can I make a broader, slightly political point, perhaps, in answer to what Llyr was saying? I mean, there is a reason why this isn't fully dealt with in the TCA. There clearly is. The European Union will say, as we've talked about today, they're not going to make concessions in this area, because it was the UK Government's decision about the level of priority to which they would attach to freedom of movement—I think that's just inescapably true. And this is a sector where freedom of movement plays a larger contribution to the success than perhaps other sectors, and I think the issues around professional qualifications are particularly challenging to the sector. So, I think, in a way, at that very macro level, it must be true about the level of overall priority attached to this sector in that negotiation, unfortunately. But I also think, just to make a very political point: Brexit was more than a political breach; it was also a cultural strategy, wasn't it? So, in a sense, it's caught up in that broader issue as well, which is also the reason why we left Erasmus+, or Erasmus, at the time. I think they were choices that were made at a UK Government level.

Indeed.

Thank you for that.

Could I check? In terms of the international strategy, is that you, Cabinet Secretary, who's leading on that, or is it the First Minister?

There are aspects of the trade portfolio in mine, but the overall international relations is for the First Minister.

Okay, thank you for that. And I know that Alun wants to come in with a question before the end, so if I could ask you if you could write to us, setting out—before we come to Alun—how the Welsh Government believes that all of the issues that we have been talking about could be addressed in the short, medium and long term. Could you write to us with those suggestions, please?

Certainly.

That would be great. I'd be grateful, thank you. And, Carolyn, are you happy for us to go to Alun? Okay. Alun.

There are two issues I'd just like to raise with you at the end of this session—I'm very grateful to both of you for the answers you've given this morning. Lesley, in answer to many questions, you've talked about the way that culture speaks for Wales and tells the world about what Wales is as a country, but I was reading, last night, in our papers, the final editorial from Planet, the magazine Planet, which points out that their funding is less today in real terms than it was when John Major was Prime Minister. And we celebrated 25 years of devolution last week, but the reality is, for a lot of cultural organisations, the politics of devolution has been that this Government has deliberately taken a decision to deprioritise culture funding in terms of its overall budget. And not just because of the crisis today or yesterday, but over the period of devolved self-government, and I think—. I don't expect you to go into all the reasons for that this morning, but I think if the Welsh Government is serious about what it says, then it has to put its money where its mouth is, quite frankly, and that means that the funding cuts that are undermining the cultural expression of 2,000 years of history—. There is a responsibility there to ensure that, if we are going to Brussels and telling the world about our culture, then we are taking people there who we are treating quite badly, in some ways, to speak for us, and I think that's something that Welsh Government needs to think more deeply about.

At the point we were discussing earlier around this point of inflection taking place at the moment, with changes of administration, certainly, in Brussels, and a change of Government in the United Kingdom, we're also going to be looking at the different funding streams and funding structures that may exist post, say, a November election in the United Kingdom. You've both, in answer to questions this morning, spoken about spending cuts and the loss of European funding and the rest of it. I know the UK Labour Party has made some commitments to changes in the way that that will be managed, ensuring that the Welsh Government has the right to manage these funding streams in the future, in a way that it doesn't have today. And I think the committee would welcome those changes. So, what thinking is taking place within the Welsh Government today in preparation for the potential changes in funding administration and structures, which may take place in the United Kingdom—we're members of the Labour Party, so we should be talking to each other, at some level, although, sometimes you think we don't—about how an incoming Labour Government would restructure what was European funding, regional policy, and then how a Welsh Government would deliver regional policy in Wales? So, is there any thinking going on in Welsh Government at the moment, and if so, what is the direction of thought and the direction of travel in terms of policy?

So, if we cast our minds back, a very significant piece of work was undertaken, led by the Welsh Government, but working with partners in the regions, universities, businesses, right across Wales, and which was discussed and debated a lot in the Senedd, around how there could be a joint approach to the future for regional funding in Wales. So, that is the starting point. We have that body of work that is undertaken, we have an evidence base for why it's laid out in the way that it is. The task now is, starting from that point, looking at the changes that have happened in the intervening years, partly as a consequence of some of the choices that have been made in the interim period, around funding mechanisms. So, the shared partnership funding is obviously taking a very different route, and that's created a different set of relationships and behaviours, as would be inevitable. So, it's starting from that work that was undertaken with partners, with this very prospect in mind, but, I guess, updating it. And that will obviously need to engage partners right across Wales. We aren't at that point yet, but that work is under way internally.

Can I just come back to Alun's first point? I don't disagree with you about the funding, and, obviously, we had to make some very difficult choices. So, I've come in at a time when, as you say, the budget has been cut significantly. So, I think that, in the next couple of weeks, I'll be launching the consultation around the cultural strategy. And coming in and having a look at it, in the co-operation agreement, there are lots of exciting things in there, and I'm really keen that we don't ask people to do more for less all the time. So, I think this is a way of trying to help make sure that, whilst they've had significant funding cuts, we are making use of absolutely everything that we have to help support them. But you will have seen the Welsh National Opera issues, you saw the national museum. The first week I was in post—everywhere I go, there seem to be leaking roofs; we've got these iconic buildings, which are very old, et cetera. So, I think we need to have some long-term thinking about this, because if you've got a leaking roof, you need to repair it—it doesn't get better on its own, and, as you say, this is quite historical that we've had these issues. So, I'm really keen to get some short-term—. And it's interesting that you were asking about the short term, medium and longer term. I think it's really important that we get to grips with this, and that we do have those short-term, medium and long-term plans.

The point in the editorial is not that—. The cuts, recently, have ended the magazine—it's closed it. So, it's very easy for successive Ministers we see come here with strategies, but if the people don't exist, they disappear, they've gone. You've got a speech, you've got a strategy, you've got a press release, but you haven't got any substance behind it, and I think that's the issue. And the fundamental question asked, and the challenge to Government, and to all of us, in many ways, in this editorial isn't simply this week and next week and last week, but in 25 years the Government, of all complexions—and most political parties have been a part of that Government over that time—has deprioritised arts funding, in relative terms. And that was at a time when funding was increasing. When you and I were first elected, in 2007, this was still the situation. So, I think the questions are more fundamental and more long term than simply this week and next week.

And those are fundamental questions that we will be very keen to explore with you in greater depth in the coming weeks and months. Thank you for that. Can I thank the two Cabinet Secretaries, and Tom and Paul, very much for your evidence this morning? We really appreciate the fact that you've stayed with us five minutes over our scheduled time as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

A transcript of what's been said will be sent to you for you to check that it's a fair record. There might be a couple of points that we might want to write to you about, if that's okay, but thank you very much for your evidence.

Thank you very much.