Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

I'm Ashok Ahir, I'm president of the library.

Pedr ap Llwyd, chief executive and librarian.

Thank you very much. Before we go—

Before we go into the session and into questions, we would like to put on record a very sad death that occurred last week. David Rowe-Beddoe, who was a lover of the arts in Wales, and who had contributed so much towards our national heritage, and was a crossbencher in the House of Lords, died last week, very sadly. We send our condolences to his family.

So, we move on to the session, and, if it's okay with you, we'll go straight into questions, and I'll go to Tom Giffard first.

Bore da. To what extent has the library implemented the recommendations of the 2020 tailored review?

Okay, I'll answer that. The tailored review is being reviewed by the Welsh Government and our board of trustees on a regular basis. We, as a library, have responded to all of those recommendations now, and they have been, and are being, implemented already.

And, just to add, I think this month marks two years. And, I think, we complete our regular review of the review recommendations each board meeting, and we actually completed it last year. It actually ended a year ago. But we always refer back to it, of course.

If I may add, one recommendation that hasn't been responded to fully yet is the financial situation of the library, and I think that's a point that is raised in the museum's tailored review also, that the Welsh Government needs to give serious attention and ask the question as to whether our cultural bodies are being funded appropriately and sufficiently.

That is something, certainly, we'll want to ask further questions on in this session this morning.

I was going to say that you'd finished an answer with a question there, which I was keen to get into, but I know we'll come back to it later. So, I know you've had additional funding from Welsh Government to implement the tailored review recommendations. Was that sufficient, and how was that money used?

It was a brief assistance from Welsh Government, which lasted 18 months. We haven't had any assistance since then as regards directly to the tailored review. But, of course, I must say that we have had support from Welsh Government as regards to the security of our national collections and the condition of the building in Aberystwyth. Welsh Government have been very, very supportive in that sense.

Okay. And I know you've touched on a number of themes that we'll come back to, so I don't want to delve into topics that colleagues are going to raise. But I did want to raise board meeting minutes from July 2023, which quoted that

'the capacity or expertise required within the Library to implement the recommendations of the CIPFA reports is currently limited.'

I just wondered if you wanted to comment on why that was.

Resources are terribly limited at the moment, as a result of the current economic situation. It's a lack of resources, and we are just doing our best within the resources that are available to us at the moment.

Okay.

So, it's not necessarily a combination of human resources; it's more to do with financial resources.

Okay. Because it goes on to say that it's due to

'The absence of the Director of Corporate Services and the Head of Finance from work for an extended period',

so, it sounds like—

Yes, because, obviously, one of the things that we've been doing as a board is assessing all aspects of spend across the organisation, which has been very difficult without a director of corporate services.

And those two matters are being addressed at the moment. The post of director of finance and corporate services is being advertised at this moment.

Okay. So, just for clarity, it is both human and financial, the reason why. Not one or the other.

I think it's a mixture of both, really.

It's difficult to get on top of the finances of any organisation with someone of that level of importance in the organisation not being there. So, when that point was made, that was definitely the case. We've now got a temporary appointment in that role, well, in both those roles. We've got a temporary appointment in the director role, and we've got someone back as head of finance who was off ill at the time. So, we've now got two people in that role, and we're recruiting a new director of corporate services.

And we couldn't possibly have made that appointment any sooner.

Okay. But you're confident now, because I appreciate that was July 2023, you're confident now you do have the capacity and expertise required.

We will soon. Absolutely.

Whether we have the finance, that's a different question.

Yes.

Thank you.

Thank you. I'll go to Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you, Chair. I was eager to ask about that, but I think you have covered those points. When did you last make a decision about cutting budgets?

Cutting the central budgets of the library?

Yes.

We had a crisis about three years ago, if I remember rightly, that lead to a public revolt, if you like, and we had generous support from Welsh Government following that situation. But to be completely pragmatic now, the financial situation and the financial climate have changed substantially since that period. And what we're facing now, I think, is Welsh Government itself, because of the settlement it receives from London, in a financial crisis itself. So, we have to look at the current situation, which is quite different to the situation three years ago, in a completely pragmatic way and in a practical manner, unfortunately, and I don't think it would be beneficial for anybody to arrange a protest against that today.

Okay. You've talked about some of the difficulties, in terms of your ability to respond to the CIPFA recommendations and the staffing implications and so on. There's a risk related to that, isn't there? Particularly in the current climate where we have to look carefully at every penny spent. You've mentioned that there are interim arrangements in place. How confident are you that you are in the position or the best possible fettle to be able to tackle the challenges that aren't just coming down the line, but that you're already facing, I'm sure?

I think we're in a very good position by now, Llyr, in the sense that we can make the necessary appointments that we need to do now in order to address the CIPFA recommendations. By the way, we haven't waited until those appointments have been made before implementing the CIPFA recommendations, and I would say, confidently, that the majority of those recommendations have been addressed already. But I'm completely confident, with the appointment of a temporary finance director, and hopefully permanently in a few weeks, that we are in very strong position. The recommendations are reviewed consistently by our board of trustees, and the board of trustees expect me to present progress reports in each of those meetings.

We have sufficient experience on the board with people who have worked in similar situations, not just in terms of the cultural sector, but also in business, to be honest with the executive team about how they need to develop and forecast the budget for 2024-25, for example, and also from 2025 onwards. So, we have been looking at the reserves that the library holds, and how we might be able to help, for example, with some kind of transformational programme, to be able to reach wherever we do need to get to if the budget in 2025-26, for example, is as forecast. So, we have to have different options in terms of where the funding will go. We know that budgets are limited, and we have to be realistic about that. It's not just because we're the national library and people don't like us; it's that's the situation that's facing the public sector across Wales. So, we are making that demand of the executive staff, and they're responding in the appropriate way.

May I add, Llyr, by saying that it's Ashok's duty and mine, as heads of the library, to address these challenges before they become a public discussion? That's our duty, that's our privilege, and that's what we're trying to do.

You talked about 2025-26. It's forecast that there will be an operational deficit of £3 million then. You have referred to arrangements and that you're looking at—. How on earth do you make up that deficit?

At the moment, for example—Pedr might want to add to this—we are undertaking an assessment of the whole system, every element of the work. We're looking at our strategy at the moment and we're looking at elements that, perhaps, we'll need to reconsider. For example, we've also started to think about perhaps moving the next strategy one year ahead, so that it's in place at the start of 2025 rather than the end. So, there are many elements to that as regards reassessing all elements of our work to see whether they fit the expectations of the library in the future. We've started internally that conversation about the purpose of the library's work, but, at some point, that will become something that we'll share with our stakeholders and the public as part of the development of the next strategy. So, on the basis of that, of course, perhaps we will need to face the fact that we need to be a smaller library, for example.

Llyr, Alun just wants to come in quickly on this.

Thank you for that. As you were discussing the next strategy, I was just thinking that you're only halfway through the current strategy, so how can you develop ideas for the next strategy when you haven't presented the current strategy?

Sometimes in this world you need to be realistic, and you need to say, 'To be honest, with this strategy, we won't get to the end of it, so we need to move the next strategy forward'.

Well, you say that the strategy that I've been reading to prepare for this session, you have—

No, we haven't, but we're assessing that to see where we've reached in terms of all expectations, where we think we can reach in terms of some of the aims, and whether we need to reconsider anything within that strategy. I think that's a good way of approaching anything.

And if I may add, Alun, we need to cut our coat according to the cloth.

Yes, yes. I understand that.

When that strategy was developed, we did believe that our funding would be safeguarded for the next three years. The situation has changed since then. We will be reviewing to what extent we can present and implement our current strategy once we know what the financial situation is.

That's very important. I think perhaps we should come back to this when the library's in a position to be able to understand where the budget has reached.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. And, of course, it's very important, in terms of understanding what the budget is going to be, to negotiate with the Government and set out your stall. I see from the minutes that there hasn't been a quarterly meeting with the Welsh Government held since mid 2022. That's a year and a half ago. Who's to blame for that? Were you requesting those meetings? And, of course, has that situation changed, and are you content with the engagement with the Welsh Government?

I'm more content today than I have been in the last few years. We do meet with Dawn Bowden regularly now.

What is 'regularly'?

We meet her twice a year on a formal basis, but, outside of those meetings, Dawn is very, very supportive of the national library. We receive an excellent service from the officials as well. She understands our position and also understands the implications of a cut in our budget. But, we're all, as Ministers and chief executives, nervously waiting.

And what's the status of those quarterly meetings? Have they been dropped now?

No. The quarterly meetings with the officials, not with the Minister—the quarterly meetings do happen.

But they haven't happened since mid 2022, so there was a period of challenge.

There was a period when they didn't happen. I think there was a change in staff. But they have happened regularly every quarter—at least every quarter.

So, since June, when the minutes were published that expressed concern about that, there have been one or two meetings—

Two or three meetings. We've had at least two meetings.

So, you do feel that you have an opportunity to have your say, and that you're being listened to.

Definitely, and we have daily contact with individual officials within the Minister's portffolio.

That's heartening. Thank you.

Okay. We'll move to Alun.

I'm very pleased to hear that. I want to turn to one of the themes that I've heard emanating from the library itself in my time on this committee, namely the safety and security of the national collections. The library has been quite clear, to my mind, in stating that there is a risk posed to the national collections because of the financial climate that you've just discussed. I'd like to understand what exactly the risks are that you describe.

We are working in a building that is old by now. It's over 100 years old, and it's a building that is deteriorating, and, in such a building, you can't pump enough money into it—it swallows money all the time. But, to praise the Minister and the Welsh Government again, we do receive a capital grant, but doubling, trebling that grant wouldn't be enough to maintain the building. But when we do face a crisis, as we have done in the last 12 months—an expensive crisis that endangers the collections—the Welsh Government has stepped in and has provided that funding for us to safeguard the collections. So, I have less concern again today than I did have 18 months ago.

Well, I'm very pleased to hear that. For me to understand this fully, and for the committee to understand this fully, the old building on the hill, that's where the major problem is, and you've undertaken an assessment of the structure there so that you understand what exactly the scale of the problem is and how much it's going to cost to resolve it. And the newer buildings behind that—I remember them being built, and you'll say now that it was decades ago, I'm sure—they are still fit for purpose as they currently stand.

Yn sicr.

So, the Edwardian buildings are the problem.

The roof is the nightmare at the moment.

And the windows.

And the windows, and they're not UPVC on that sort of building that we have in Aberystwyth.

So, you're having discussions with Government regarding these risks, and you're managing them and you're satisfied with the current position, just to be clear on that.

We are satisfied with the current situation, Alun, but just imagine if we were facing a 10 per cent cut in our budget. Imagine the risks and dangers that that could pose to our collections. But we have to prioritise our expenditure, and Ashok and I wouldn't place the national collections at risk. But there are other things that then can't happen so that we can fund that aspect.

Alun, just before you go on, can I just ask, in terms of these collections that are at risk and so you'd have to do prioritise their safety, can you set out for us some of the national treasures that are included in that?

I have to admit now, the national treasures are totally safe, to be fair. The major treasures are in underground cells, and I don't think that the sea is going to inundate the national library in Aberystwyth.

Well, climate change would have to be very, very bad for that to happen.

In terms of the wider collections, which are still treasures—

Treasures in different ways.

—the first Welsh book to be published, and so on—those treasures aren't at risk. It's not going to happen today. Today, they are safe and secure, but, with cuts to our budget, it's going to be challenging.

Yes, but even if they're safe now, if there was any danger to them, they could deteriorate quite quickly, couldn't they, which is why they have to be prioritised to such an extent?

You could have a heavy rain shower overnight without any one of us knowing that the roof was damaged.

And so much history just gone.

Yes.

Llyr wants to come in, and then we'll come back to Alun.

Just quickly, yes, thank you. You've mentioned that, obviously, an element of capital funding is necessary in terms of the building. Of course, there's a revenue element too, I would have thought—there are the jobs of people looking after the collections also, so there is a risk there, isn't there?

Yes. Yes, there is a risk in terms of employment. That is, if we're going to be employing fewer people in future, there is a risk in terms of having fewer people to look after the building. But that's just a risk. To go back to Alun's point, as regards how much of this strategic plan we can afford to implement in the future, these considerations will happen once we know what the settlement from London to the Welsh Government will be and the scale of the cuts that we face.

You referred earlier to a cut of 10 per cent. If there was a cut of 10 per cent, would it be fair to say that there had never been such a threat to the collection in the past?

No, never before. The problem that we have, like every other cultural body, is that we spend over 80 per cent of our funding on wages. So, we could—. It's a shame that I'm not a prophet and could plan for this, but a 10 per cent cut means around 30 jobs.

And there's another point, Llyr. If you look at the traditional work—you look after items, you do cataloguing, and we have of course moved to digitisation—but now, certainly from the board's perspective, we're asking more of staff, and also we're asking for different perspectives from staff. So, for example, if we want to go to the collections and reinterpret them, look again at how we have presented them to people, how we've described what's there, you need to go back to some things. Perhaps they won't have been looked at for 20, 30 years, and perhaps you need new individuals or new faces to go in to look at them. But this is still a cost in terms of people, in terms of resources—it's still people, isn't it.

To emphasise the critical financial situation that we could be facing, and returning to Alun's point once again, in order to deliver that strategy for the future, we need a 10 per cent increase, not a 10 per cent cut. We need a 10 per cent increase to deliver that strategy, so imagine what the impact of a 10 per cent cut to our budget would be, from April onwards.

Okay. Thank you. Back to Alun.

Thank you for that. I don't have any more questions on this subject.

I'd just like to go back to the strategy a little. You have just said that you're reconsidering this strategy, and that's fine. But in reading it, there are a couple of themes that strike me as more important, if you like. And that means—I'm reading in English here—access and connectivity, where you try to connect different communities, and you refer to new communities here somewhere, and new audiences, and you talk about widening access to the collections. I think that that's crucial—I think it's extremely important. So, I'd like to understand how you have been doing that during the last few years, during the period of this strategy—since 2001, I think, is it?

Yes. May I start, Ashok? The most important driver that we have to do that is the digital technology—digitising more and more and more of our national collection. My vision, and the vision of the board too, is to ensure that, in years to come, the national library is in your pocket, in the sense that it's available on your phone—that our collections and the advantages of being able to access the collections are in your pocket.

On the digitisation strategy, the Wales peace petition is part of that in terms of placing our collections online. But we are also establishing different clip centres around Wales, where somebody can go from the high street to access the library's collection. We're working with ethnic communities in Pembrokeshire, in Cardiff. We are, by now, coming out of Aberystwyth to hold events. We had an excellent lecture last night here in Cardiff in terms of the political archive.

It's very, very important, and the mindset at the moment is that we have to go out to the people rather than expecting the people to come to us. That mission has worked over these past 18 months. The board has invested in a new department to promote and engage with the public, and that has paid dividends, hasn't it, Ashok?

It has. In terms of the clip centres, I remember when I started, there were about seven. Now, we're up to 13, and about three or four have opened. But it's not just about having the centres; it's holding events around the centres, for example. I think we've had one or two already in Carmarthen. There's another one in the new year. So, it's important, when we start these clip centres, not just to open them out to schools, but we're also thinking about how we can work with partners, for example the BBC or S4C for the broadcasting archive, to hold events in the settings. So, that's one part of the programme. Of course, it's a means of engagement.

Another piece of work, of course, is developing new resources for the curriculum. There are a whole load of resources that schools and teachers need for the new curriculum. There is an education team that has transformed, for example, a part of the broadcast archive centre into an education centre. They have schools coming in, and they hold sessions with schools across Wales at the same time. So, we can have a combination of visitors to the building and schools that join the sessions elsewhere, and, of course, develop additional resources to coincide with the curriculum. These are all developments that align with the strategy.

Our building in Aberystwyth is also far, far more welcoming than it was two years ago in terms of public access. There is a space for young children to run riot there. We have a volunteering scheme, a very successful one. Sorry, Delyth.

Hefin is very eager to come in on this, I know. So, Hefin, we'll come to you.

Can I ask why on earth can I not access the digital archive on my mobile phone or computer right now? Because there's a whole host of Welsh, BBC, ITV content—S4C's opening day—on YouTube. Why can I not access it right now today?

That's a difficult question for me. Are there any technical problems, are you suggesting?

Well, yes. If I go on YouTube, I can watch S4C's opening day, and I can watch The Dragon Has Two Tongues. I can watch a variety of different archive material. Why can't I access the national library's archives on my mobile phone now?

A lot of it has got to do with copyright and access rights. That is, in essence, Hefin, why we've created the clip centres. We don't own the copyright, so the copyright is—

There's no copyright on Television Wales and the West, is there? There's no copyright on that.

There will be copyright. Someone will own it, believe me.

TWW copyright will be out of date by now, and I'm sure that ITV Wales would be more than happy to have their archives available.

It is available, but it's available through key points. So, it's available at the library, and it's available through clip centres, and if you're in the library, you can come and research it. It's quite a complicated—

That sounds completely prehistoric when I can use YouTube to access a whole host of stuff, as I've mentioned, which is clearly out-of-date copyright because otherwise YouTube would remove it.

Hefin, if I may come in there, we've explained in terms of the BBC—you have to be in specific locations to access those. But in terms of the rest of the moving archive that the library holds, it's possible that you can't access what you are searching for immediately. We do have mountains of films to be digitised, and we won't have reached our target of digitising those for years to come. So, there are vast collections available online now, but it's possible that the exact item that you are seeking hasn't yet been digitised. It's an aim, an objective—it's developing work at present, and we can't achieve it all overnight.

And Hefin, I'd need to check, but there might be some stuff you'd need a library card to access, just like traditional libraries.

I don't find your answers entirely convincing given the fact you can find Arfon Haines Davies from 1977 on YouTube, and nobody's claimed copyright on that. So I'm not entirely convinced, but if you would like to provide more evidence after the meeting, I'd be happy to hear it.

We'll do that.

Thank you. We'll go back to Alun.

What's going through my mind in listening to that conversation and listening to what you've been saying during this session is that I think the members of this committee would like to have an opportunity to visit the library and to see some of this ourselves. The last time I was in the library was when Andrew Green was librarian.

If I remember rightly, Alun, you were meant to be in Aberystwyth today.

Unfortunately, it's out of our hands, because of the current financial situation facing the Commission. But we're very eager, and as soon as we've had the green light, we'd be delighted to visit.

If I may say as well, what will be an eye-opener for you at the library is the transformation that's happened there during the last 18 months, in particular in developing the national broadcast archive centre. We've had about 10,000 visitors to that centre since it opened.

I have to move on, sorry—

If I may just apologise to some extent to Hefin.

Hefin, you're absolutely right—I didn't mean to be flippant in any way. There is a challenge about where we can place this. If we want, as Pedr said, to have a library in your pocket, there are loads of things about partnerships, particularly with the likes of YouTube and others, including all the broadcasters. Our partnerships at this stage are with the Welsh broadcasters. Once something goes on the internet, you've got international broadcasting issues. So there are things that we are looking at, but everything costs. So, in a sense, part of the limitations are exactly what you are highlighting.

Thank you for that. Hefin's smiling.

I'm very grateful to you for what you've said. I like the way that you have set out the plan that you have, but there are no figures there, there are no numbers and no targets there. I expect that the library's board will see more detailed plans, and the public plan probably isn't the place to set out all the targets you have. But I would like—and perhaps when we go to Aberystwyth there will be an opportunity to discuss it in more detail—to understand what your objectives are, and how you're going to reach out. How are the people I represent Blaenau Gwent, for example, going to feel comfortable in dealing with the national library? Because I do feel that there is a question about how we broaden things out, and I'd like to have a broader discussion with you about that in the future. We don't have the time this morning.

I agree entirely. If institutions and organisations like the library don't listen to the communities and that we understand what the people of Blaenau Gwent want from us, then our work is wasted. So I would welcome that conversation. These conversations are taking place, but it's possible that we need to emphasise that we need to have those conversations with individual communities.

I'd like to ask as well about your relationship with regional and local archives—are you working, for example, with the Gwent Archives and the work that's going there. But maybe—

Perhaps that's something that we could raise when we visit the library. We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas.

Bore da. We've been discussing the contemporary art gallery and whether it should be hub and satellite, and then how we reach out to communities. So, I'm quite interested in that, how you work with local libraries. And I've never been to Aberystwyth library, so I would love to go. And if we don't go as a committee, I will make the effort. I just want to ask you a question: would you class yourself as a public service?

Absolutely. Yes, we are a public service, and nothing else. I have to admit that I go to the library almost every day, but the question I ask myself is what benefit are we going to bring to the people of Wales today. So, that's the question that I encourage every one of our people to ask: what good are we going to do today for the people of Blaenau Gwent and every other part of Wales?

I'm interested in how we measure benefits of public services, rather than just monetary. We heard the Chancellor speaking today about public services and the need to be more productive and efficient going forward as there's no funding for them. You are being productive and efficient, you've done all that you can. I'm sorry I haven't brought this up earlier when we talked about finances, but I've been ticking over thinking about this. So, just to ask you that question. And how many people do you employ, as well, just in the local area?

We employ around 250 people.

That's a lot.

Yes, but, as regards to the impact of our work, and maybe going on to the tailored review of the museum, I think we all in the culture sector and the Welsh Government in particular need to explore this question of how our cultural institutions actually impact upon individual people and communities. I think one of the lessons we can learn from that particular review is that we need some measurable objectives generally across the culture sector in Wales and not individual institutions. We do measure our impact on the community and individuals and we get very, very positive, and sometimes negative responses as well, from members of the public, which we try to learn from.

Thank you. I've got some questions to ask you regarding performance, if that's okay. Earlier, you just started to touch on attendance figures. So, how has the library performed in 2023 against key performance indicators, such as number of visits to the library’s digital collections and services?

The key performance indicators that you refer to are regularly monitored by the Welsh Government and by the board too. We aren't satisfied with every one of those indicators. Some of them do cause us some concern and in seeing them, of course, we try to put measures in place to respond to the results. But in general terms, I think, Ashok, we are relatively satisfied.

It's an interesting question, Carolyn, because we had quite a thorough look at some of the digital reach in our last performance and governance committee and actually there's been a drop in some of our digital reach in the last six months, which we're trying to analyse at the moment. And strangely, it's probably not to do with us, it's more to do with how we're arriving at people. So, there have been changes in the way that Google are operating in some of their things, and we're trying to map across with other cultural organisations who we think have had similar drops. It's not where we were when we were on track, because, historically, we've been doing better, year on year, to our expectations, so therefore the KPIs have gone up in line with that. This is the first year we've seen a fall in digital reach, and we think it's more to do with what's happening in the background and how searches are working for people, and how things are being presented, rather than—. Because, actually, our digital footprint—our content footprint—is much more expansive than it has ever been. So, we've got a bit of a challenge at the moment.

We are reviewing the KPIs at the moment, Carolyn—you know, are they really—? Do we need—? Should they be different? Are we measuring the right things and maybe not measuring other crucial performances?

Okay. Do you have a figure for the number of physical—a number for the amount of physical visitors who attend the library? Do you know what the figure is for 2022-23 of physical attendance at the library?

Do you remember?

You could write to us with that figure.

I can come back to you with that figure.

Okay. Thank you.

I had it in mind last week, but not today. [Laughter.]

Can I just add that coming to Cardiff reminds me that maybe the national library should be positioned in Cardiff and not Aberystwyth?

Oh. Well—.

Oh—.

Aberystwyth—. I wouldn't move the building, but Aberystwyth is a challenge—

It's not easy to get to.

—as regards population and footprint.

[Inaudible.] [Laughter.]

Carolyn, I think Llyr just wants to come in, very quickly. Oh, sorry.

Sorry. But, in terms of footfall, we have seen a significant increase since we reopened our doors, particularly, as Pedr was saying, because of some of the changes to the building. So, actually, having lots and lots of children and parents into our parent-and-child space has helped a lot with the figures.

It has been a blessing.

Do you have school visits?

Oh, absolutely.

Do they come from all over?

All over Wales on a daily basis, yes.

Okay.

Just quickly, Llyr wants to come in—I'll come back to you.

That's the question I wanted to raise, really, because there are two aspects to that, aren't there? On one level, you're talking about wanting the information here, so that people can access it, but, on another level—. I understand that that isn't as good as being there and seeing it in person and—well, perhaps not touching, but certainly experiencing it. So, you're trying to be a little bit of everything for everybody, and that's an additional challenge.

Well, you do need to try to be everything for everybody; you can't just keep a building and switch to digital.

Yes, because once it's digital, you don't need the original.

If you go back a decade or so, it's the same challenge—how do you attract more people to Aberystwyth? Along with everything that we are doing, there's still a great deal of work that we're doing on the visitor experience. We're looking at options to develop the building—how to make it more welcoming and how to develop that enhanced experience of the library. But all of this is something for a decade or more, because of the financial situation.

If we were in a relatively static situation, I would be urging the board and the executive team to be pursuing elements of support, of grants. We have a team now to fundraise for the first time, and this is funded by the board from reserve funding. We have a programme, a strategy for fundraising now for the first time in some time. Part of that is not just to raise funds in small amounts, but also to pursue something major one or twice a year, and also to pursue grants to develop the visitor experience. But all of these are projects for the future, if we get the funding. But it is still part of our work.

May I add that part of our mission to look for additional funding is to enable buses full of children to come to Aberystwyth, and that we pay for that, from difficult areas—

Such as Blaenau Gwent.

—from difficult and challenging areas? We are happy to pay, if we have external funding to do so, and we are seeking that funding now, because we do realise how important it is to bring children and young people to the library bring children and young people to the library to hold these great treasures and to give them a unique experience.

Very briefly, Tom, and then we'll go back to Carolyn.

I will try and be really quick, but it is a big question. I think Llyr hit on something really interesting—I don't know whether I totally agree with him—where he said that having a digital offer means that the library—

It wasn't opinion. I was just teasing the—

—becomes more redundant.

I know. We exchanged a glance—of horror on my part. [Laughter.] He was teasing.

Division in Plaid Cymru. [Laughter.]

But I think it's a very important point, actually. What steps are you taking to ensure that your digital offer and your physical building don't exist in a silo? How are you ensuring that one drives the other, that someone logging on to the digital website thinks about attending the library in person?

Well, the digital can act as a teaser, can't it, a taster? A taster.

There is no clash. There is no clash at all. There is a need to keep that balance in terms of the digital and the physical. Both are very, very important. I think that the physical, coming to Aberystwyth, inspires the individual—individuals and communities.

You believe that, but does the digital offer ensure that that happens?

The digital side is developing. The digital side is developing on a day-to-day basis, and the aim is that they complement each other. But, you know, while we're members, while you're members of this committee, the digitisation work will not be finished; it happens on a daily basis.

It's a very good question. I have a personal interested in this field. So, you can create a new digital library to include all of our treasures, not just the major treasures, but the minor treasures, and do the research and provide access so that Hefin can look through all the clips we have. But all of that work is a £200,000 build, for example. We don't have the funds at the moment to create that kind of website. We have the skills internally, we have the digitised elements, we have ideas. We are already trying to shape the building so that it's somewhere you can navigate, and when you come to Aberystwyth you'll see, for example, the broadcast archive. The experience of the broadcast archive is one of the best of any similar experience. You wear headsets like these, and the music changes as you walk along, the videos change and the narrative changes. You walk around and it follows you around the space. I don't like the term, but it's state of the art. It is, genuinely, state of the art. So, you can try to create a state of the art website, but it will cost up to £0.25 million.

Okay. We'll have to move on, I'm afraid, because time is scarce. Sorry about this. We'll go back to Carolyn. She had one more question.

You touched on it earlier, but does the library have a target for raising revenue from commercial activity and non-government grants? And have you got a figure for this year of what you have been able to raise? You talked about transport for schools, which is really commended. I know that transport is what's prohibitive for schoolchildren for making visits, even to swimming—we've discussed that here—so, that's really, really good. But is there anything else you're thinking about?

Yes. We have a commercial target of something like £600,000, which is an ask of us by Welsh Government and we are able to reach that sum on a yearly basis. As regards fundraising, it is the board who sets the targets for each year, and we have been very, very successful as regards our legacy scheme. For example, at this point in time, we are selling a house valued at £1 million in London. So, the legacy scheme, whereby individuals leave us money in their wills, has been very, very and still is a very, very successful scheme.

And in terms of the fundraising strategy I spoke about earlier, that has got a 10-year target. So, I think the first three years are a lot more reasonable in terms of developing an income, and then, as I said, there are various ways of looking at it in terms of small contributions, contributions from, in a sense, a medium level and then going on for higher level donor work, which in itself can take two or three years to get to. But that plan is there, so I think the expectation would be that we would be raising somewhere in the region of £1 million a year.

Do you have somebody that works for you—

We do now, yes.

—that does the specific fundraising, a fundraiser—

We do now.

—who could look, maybe, through social partnership working, at helping to get that funding for the buses or for other ways to sponsor the library? I don't know.

Yes. So, the fundraising team have been tasked with not just traditional fundraising, but also partnership work and also, of course, grant work.

Can I just add, Delyth, it's important that culture is seen as of cross-sectoral importance?

Culture is relevant to health, to education, to society. It's important that culture isn't just in a silo on its own. It's extremely important, and there's been a tendency to see culture in a silo in the past few years. Our contribution extends far beyond the cultural sector, and that is a responsibility that weighs on us in terms of how do we enrich individuals' lives.

That's an extremely important subject for us as a committee.

You're talking to the converted here. [Laughter.]

I know I am.

We keep trying to get the message across to others. But thank you for that, for saying that and raising that. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch. I think that Members of all parties in this committee feel very strongly about this issue, certainly. We have eight minutes left. Would you be happy to stay for another five minutes at the end of the session, just so that we can try and squeeze a few other things in? Thank you.

In terms of the national contemporary art gallery, are your commitments as a library to that—? What sort of impact will that have on your budgets, do you think?

We have been very pleased to be able to collaborate with the arts council and the national museum to develop this concept of a national contemporary art gallery. The funding that has currently been allocated will only extend to March 2025. There is no promise of funding to sustain and maintain the gallery after that date, and the Government has asked us as a gallery board to consider different options and a business plan to see to what extent this gallery can be sustainable after that date. Now, despite the importance of the gallery, if the library has to use its own scarce resources and funding as one of the three bodies sustaining this gallery, then it has to go on to that pile of priorities—

And we've been discussing already how fragile that situation is.

Yes. And although the gallery is very important, there are more important elements regarding the library's core work that are also going to be in that pile of priorities.

So, there is no assurance from the Government that there'll be revenue funding beyond 2025.

Not at all. Not at all.

Okay. Thank you for that. Did you want to come in? No. In the time we have remaining, I think we'll—

Sorry, Delyth, may I add just one extra point about the art gallery?

Certainly.

The work on the idea has begun. So, in terms of the nature of the art exhibitions of the library, we have already started to create that gallery to some extent. If you've been to the building, and also in terms of the work we've done, for example, in Haverfordwest, in the building there, the idea of an art gallery now is a central part of our art display scheme. There's one there at the moment. So, on one level, whenever a big idea comes to the fore, in terms of the work, for us as a library, we have already begun the work on the contemporary art gallery.

Thank you for that.

If I have an opportunity before I retire in March/April next year, Delyth, I would like to have an opportunity to discuss with this committee my vision with regard to establishing a national art gallery for Wales that includes historical collections as well as contemporary art.

We would be delighted to return to that topic with you, certainly. Thank you very much.

Before we go to Tom, Hefin wanted to come in on a point, and then we'll go to Tom.

Yes, just very quickly, Chair. I just wanted to clarify that, earlier, lest there be any confusion, I was referring in my question to the broadcast archive, not the wider digital archive. I understand that there might have been some confusion about that, so that's just for clarification.

Thank you for that, Hefin. We'll turn to Tom.

Diolch yn fawr. Can I talk about the library's role more widely? So, what contributions have you made to the Welsh Government's cultural strategy?

The Welsh Government doesn't have a cultural strategy, of course. It's being developed at the moment, but the national library plays a very central role in the cultural life of Wales. We do highlight the rich nature of our collections and cultural heritage not just to Wales, but to the wider world.

Obviously, you mentioned that there is no cultural strategy—it's being developed; I understand that—but are you feeding into the development as a stakeholder? That's what I was getting at.

Absolutely. We do feed into the various drafts that we've seen and have presented our comments to the officials who are developing this strategy at the moment. And I'm quite hopeful it will be a worthwhile strategy, which we will see soon.

And from the discussions you have had and the feedback that you've given, as you mentioned, how confident are you that the final strategy, if you like, will be a reflection of the feedback that you've given? Do you feel like your voice has been heard?

I'm absolutely confident.

The reality of the situation now—and I can say this for the museum and ourselves and other cultural bodies as well—is that there is a new spirit that has come to the fore in the last few weeks and months, of good-natured collaboration between us as cultural organisations and Government officials. There is healthy, lively, respectful communication happening now, and I am completely confident that what we are presenting to Welsh Government these days isn't being ignored—it's considered seriously. We're working in partnership, and that partnership is fresh and new.

I welcome that.

So, speaking more widely than just the cultural strategy, what role do you play—you've touched on this, I guess, a little bit already—in helping the Welsh Government towards wider policy goals and objectives? Are you sufficiently resourced to do some of those things?

We are doing our best. Constantly, on my desk, I have the programme for government as well as the remit letter, which states clearly how the Minister expects us to support the wider objectives and priorities of the Welsh Government, and those are the objectives and priorities that are reviewed most in our biannual meetings with the Minister and in our quarterly meetings too. We measure them carefully, and I'm entirely confident that our contribution to the programme for government is one that we can be very proud of.

But does the funding come with the priorities or are they just Government priorities?

Again, you have to cut your coat according to the cloth. There is never enough funding. By getting more funding, we could achieve much, much more. But there are restrictions on the Welsh Government, too, and we accept that. With the funding that we do receive, I think that the Welsh Government and the board are entirely content with what we are achieving and delivering to deliver the programme for government within the budget that we have. If you give us more, we could do much, much more and make an even greater contribution.

And it's a fair question. As I said at the beginning, there's a balance now. We need to look at the work programme for 2024-25 and say, 'Actually, originally, last year, we were thinking that, in 2024-25, we would have been doing that.' Some of that will be within our core work, such as safeguarding the treasures, looking after the building and our work on the strategy of reaching a wider audience. But there are some elements that also align with the programme for government and the co-operation agreement, for example. A certain element of that has come to us as projects, but sometimes, in any organisation, there is a balance to be struck when it comes to projects. Some projects have funding that pays for someone, while with others it's core funding. If one decreases, it's then a challenge to try to work out the balance, and that's what we'll be looking at next year and the following year, in 2025-26, for example. And, of course, it's important to have honest conversations sometimes, and we'll see what happens.

May I also add, Delyth, very quickly, that my greatest concern about the funding situation is the work that we could be failing to do in the context of the matter that Alun has raised? It's entirely essential that we develop and foster relationships with the communities of Wales. If that work were to suffer, then it would be a crisis.

And returning to one of Tom's questions about the balance between the digital and the physical collections, what's important to us, too, is that we do take our treasures out to the people. For example, in conversations with Darren Millar, we've agreed that the Nanteos cup will come here to the Senedd at the beginning of March. So, do please go on your knees before the Nanteos cup and pray for more funding. [Laughter.]

Well, if there are treasures in Wales, the treasures have to be seen, of course.

Yn hollol.

We have developed, for example, in the location in Haverfordwest, a safe space, for example, for old paintings, making sure that the temperature is right, of course, which means not just putting them on display in any room. Of course, we would like to do that in four or five other locations across Wales, but you need a building that's secure and has all of the stuff needed in terms of climate and temperature control in order to do that. Of course, we'd all like to do that, but it is a challenge.

Thank you. I'm very aware that we are over time, but I know that Alun wants to ask one question. Have you finished, Tom? Okay. We'll go to Alun for the last question today.

Okay. We have been discussing priorities this morning. Is it a priority for the national library to continue to be a copyright library in the UK?

We believe that it is—it's a current priority.

Currently.

Yes, currently, in the sense that it has to remain a copyright library. It's the only copyright library that we have in Wales, and Wales deserves a copyright library. But this, again, has to go into that pile of priorities that I mentioned, and we have to ask the question: can we continue to collect everything as we are currently doing, or does the financial situation mean that we have to consider anew to what extent we do collect? But losing our status as a copyright library is out of the question entirely. We will remain a copyright library.

But if we're looking at the role—. This is too big a question for 10:30 on a Thursday morning.

And in the final minute.

We have been discussing how priorities change, and you have focused on moving towards digital. If the library's integral role is to create a record of our history, and history that's being created today, then there's more value in looking at the WhatsApp groups of the political parties here, if you want a picture of Wales today, than in collecting books that have been published just because they've been published in the UK. So, what is the library's relationship and role in recording Welsh history in the future? I think that there is a discussion to be had there, but I do accept—

May I be more specific, Alun, and not disagree with you at all? What we do have to do, when the financial situation becomes clear, is to consider only collecting material through the medium of Welsh and about Wales. If collecting everything means that we can't do the work that you consider to be important, then that shift will have to happen. But, again, it's a discussion that we need to have.

The situation is that you can't put specific plans in place at the moment. The news, although unlikely, could be far better than we expect. That is unlikely to happen, but, until that happens, it's difficult to put specific plans in place and to share them with you. But, as you can see now, the ideas are developing, and I don't think that our vision and your priorities as a committee are in conflict at all.

Perhaps this is a conversation for the session in March.

So, we will look forward to that, certainly.

And the financial situation will be much clearer by that time.

Yes, of course.

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much to you both. It's been very useful to speak to you today. There will be a draft of the transcript sent to you for you to ensure that it is a fair record of what's been said. As there are some things that we haven't been able to ask you about, we'll write to you with those questions. So, thank you very much for your time this morning. I apologise that we've gone about seven minutes over, but it has been useful. So, thank you.

Delyth, may I thank you for your support over the years as a committee? Thank you very much.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch.

Diolch.