Plenary

The next item, therefore, will be the questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services. The first question is from Andrew R.T. Davies.

Diolch yn fawr. The Welsh Kidney Network commission renal services in Wales, with Cardiff and Vale University Health Board providing renal services in south-east Wales. Treatment and support for people with kidney disease should be provided as close to home as possible, with home dialysis being a first choice if kidney transplant is not possible.

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I've been approached by some constituents because, in the western part of the Vale, many patients are referred to the Princess of Wales Hospital where kidney dialysis, as I understand it at the moment, does not happen. It is the intention, as I understand it, for the health board to commence dialysis services, either on that site or at a site to be identified within the Bridgend area. Could you update me today so I can update my constituents as progress is being made to commission these services? And do you have a start date when those services will commence in the Bridgend area, because, at the moment, constituents are having to travel to Swansea to receive the dialysis treatment that they require for their kidney complaint?

Thanks very much. What we know is that kidney disease affects about 6 to 8 per cent of the Welsh population. What I can tell you is that there are several examples of increased capacity in South Wales Central recently. Three new dialysis stations opened in Merthyr, in April 2023. Initial pilots in Cardiff South and Pontypool opened last week. And in summer, so summer 2024, two new dialysis units will be opened—one in Bridgend and one in Neath Porth Talbot—and they'll be providing 21 new stations in the one that you're interested in in Bridgend.

Thank you.

In line with 'A Healthier Wales', I expect people to have access to an increasingly wide range of health services in their communities. Services are integrated with local authority and third sector services designed to support people to stay well, and live independently at home for as long as possible.

Thank you very much for your response, Minister, but I can't help feeling a sense of profound melancholy when trying to project the need of enhanced community health provision in Denbighshire, particularly with the attitude you've previously displayed in discussions in times gone by on this matter.

As I've previously mentioned to you in this Senedd Chamber, I've been conducting a programme of care home visits in the Vale of Clwyd to look for common themes and issues affecting the most vulnerable people in my constituency, and the common theme that keeps being raised is the chronic understaffing of care homes, particularly in Rhyl and Prestatyn, due to the lack of career scope, training, and low pay, which makes the sector uninviting for prospective candidates to be recruited by respected care home owners. And the bottom line is that we have a health and social care crisis, not only in my constituency, but across Wales. So, can the Minister outline her assessment of the current health and social care crisis affecting the people of the Vale of Clwyd and across Wales, and what steps she and the Welsh Government are taking to address this issue and make careers in health and social care more attractive, to act as a remedy to the chronic waiting times and bedblocking under this Labour Government?

Well, thanks very much. What you know is that, actually, it's one of the priorities of the Labour Government in Wales: we introduced the real living wage, and it was not an insignificant amount of money for us to invest in what we know is a very challenged sector. I'm very pleased that we were able to do that. Of course, since then, we've seen inflation have an impact on lots of people and, actually, the fact that lots of people have left from eastern Europe has also put pressure on the service because, actually, the numbers leaving, for example, from eastern Europe, have left gaps in other sectors, so lots of care workers have gone to work in those alternative sectors in relation to hospitality and other areas. So, we are very aware, and I know my colleague Julie Morgan has worked consistently on this issue. We've got a framework that's being developed, a national framework in relation to care that puts in place the need for registration and ability to progress within the care sector. And what you'll also be aware of is that, actually, we've got a fund, a £144 million fund, to integrate health and care, and that, of course, is something that we provide on an annual basis.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I heard the exchange yesterday in First Minister's questions between the First Minister and the leader of the opposition with regard to calls from the Royal College of Emergency Medicine to publish NHS data on emergency department times without the application of breach exemptions. Now, Minister, what I want to understand is—. As I understand it, you stop the clock, as I understand it, for clinical exemptions. So, essentially, we're stopping the clock for those that are waiting in accident and emergency departments, and therefore the number of hours spent in an emergency department is misleading. Now, the royal college claims that you are the only Government in the UK to count in this way. Now, in the past, you've told me in response to questions, 'Of course, in Wales, we count very differently. I think we're more honest with the public in Wales.' So, Minister, do you think that you record data in a transparent way in terms of the length of time that people spend waiting in an A&E department, and why don't you want to know and publish the true picture of how long patients are waiting in A&E departments in Wales?

Well, you can continue to trot out something that is fundamentally wrong, if you'd like, but the fact is that we have made it absolutely clear to health boards that breach exemptions should not be excluded from published emergency department statistics, and we have had assurances from all the relevant health boards, which have assured us that that is indeed the case. Now, you can keep on banging on about this story. The fact is, there is no truth to the allegation that we miscount. It's very important, I think, that people understand that this was something that we have looked at in detail, and we have been reassured by health boards that we count and that those numbers should not be excluded from emergency department statistics. And another thing I think is important for you to note is that, in terms of the Office for National Statistics, they have said that Wales's statistics and the way we count are comparable to all major emergency departments. The way we count is very similar to the way that England counts.

Minister, I'm sorry, but you are not being transparent. I stand by what I said earlier on my questions to you. The royal college are calling for you, as the last Government in the UK, to change the way that you are counting. You are not counting accurately so the health service can properly plan. You need to have accurate data in terms of how long people are waiting in A&E departments, especially as we plan for the winter, and that is absolutely crucial. Now, this is the question, Minister, in response to what you've said today: can you explain the difference between performance data in responses provided by health boards to the royal college and the emergency department performance data published by the Welsh Government, because they vary greatly? Can you explain that, Minister?

What I can tell you is that the question that was asked by the royal college, in its wording, was flawed. They made an assumption that data did not include patients who had breached the exemptions. The fact is that that is not the case. So, they made an assumption, when they got the response, they added those on top. It was incorrect in the way they did it. I am more than happy for an independent person to come in to analyse our data, because I stand by our data; we have looked at this in detail. You can keep on asking questions about it, but I am more than happy to be transparent about this. And the ONS has stood by us and said that, actually, the way we count our data is very similar to the way that they do so in England.

Well, thank you, Minister, for giving me permission to ask questions during spokespersons' question times. This is a fundamental question. You've not address the specific question I asked, Minister, so I will ask again. I'll ask you again—you can say I can keep asking. I want to know the answer, that's what I want to know. Can you explain the difference—it's not a difficult question—between the performance data in responses provided by health boards to the royal college and the emergency department performance data published by the Welsh Government? The two vary considerably, and it is important that we have that response to it. Now, you've said you've looked at this very accurately, with your officials, so why can you not provide an answer to my question today?

I just have provided you with an answer. I told you that the question that was asked by the royal college was fundamentally flawed. That was the problem. The question they asked was fundamentally flawed. It said—. The question they asked was: the data include the patients that were removed from the published data, due to breach exemptions. They made an assumption that they were excluded. They were not.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll follow on from Russell George's questions, if I may. And following that response from the Minister, the Minister and the Government have tried to frame the debate around A&E waiting times and breach exemptions as a matter of presentational semantics. This is intentional to distract from the real issue—the breach exemption policy itself is simply not fit for purpose. Wales, as we've been told, is the only constituent part of the UK that continues with this policy, and the policy is leading to suboptimal outcomes for NHS staff and patients. If the clock is stopped when recording the duration of patients' emergency care, for whatever reason listed in the breach exemption guidelines, the policy doesn't alter the fact that they remain in A&E, with the resourcing and capacity implications that this entails. This is compromising the ability of emergency services to plan and manage their resources. But concerns have been expressed for many years about this policy, and the Government has repeatedly refused to listen. So, to change tack a little from what Russell George was asking there: what is the Minister's rationale for continuing with this policy, against the express advice of healthcare professionals working in emergency departments?

So, it was the consultants and the clinicians themselves who asked us to introduce a mechanism through which they would not have to run against the clock. It was they themselves who wanted us to introduce that. So, we were complying with what they asked us to do back in 2011. Now, as you will see in the statement that I put out yesterday, we are actively engaging clinical leaders and service users on how we can improve the quality of care in emergency departments and this includes exploring more meaningful ways of measuring patient experience and outcomes.

The Minister says that the consultants and clinicians were asking back in 2010-11 for this to be introduced, but, since then, 82 per cent of clinicians have said that they oppose this policy of breach exemptions. The fact that the Welsh Government is sticking with the policy, in contrast with other UK nation, implies that the Government believes that the policy can actually ease A&E waiting times. But, since being introduced in 2011, this simply hasn’t materialised. In August 2011, 8.8 per cent of Welsh patients were waiting more than four hours in A&E. In August 2023, which is the latest month for which we’ve got data, that figure was 31 per cent. In August 2011, 1.7 per cent of Welsh patients were waiting longer than eight hours in A&E. In August 2023, that figure was 17.4 per cent. In April 2013, which is the earliest point for available data on the 12-hour waiting times, 2.7 per cent were waiting longer than 12 hours for emergency care. In August 2023, that figure was 10.9 per cent. On every metric, therefore, A&E waiting times have worsened since the policy was introduced over 10 years ago. So, how much will things have to get worse before you acknowledge that the breach exemption policy is not actually improving A&E waiting times, and will the Minister today agree to scrap that policy?

I've said in the statement yesterday that we are already exploring more meaningful ways of measuring the patient experience and outcomes and we’re happy to continue with that dialogue with the Royal College on that issue. But breach exemptions are there because clinicians quite often want, for example, to keep people in for observation and they don’t want to be pushing them out of the door in order to comply with four-hour targets or 12-hour targets, which are targets that we have set for them. But what I can tell you is that we have a whole range of measures in place to take the pressure off A&E, including the six goals programme, including the fact that we’ve introduced urgent primary care centres across the whole of Wales, and including the fact that we now have same day emergency care centres. And the fact is that the pressure on A&E has increased everywhere. We have an ageing population. We’ve just been through a pandemic. This is not something that is unique to Wales. The fact is that the pressure is intense; it will continue to be intense, which is why we’ve introduced the six goals programme.

Our six goals for urgent and emergency care programme is supporting people to access the right care, in the right place, first time. We have made £25 million available, including £3 million to each health board, to deliver improvements to 111 online, new mental health pathways, urgent primary care centres and same day emergency care services.

Thank you for that response and I would like to go into a little more detail on that.

We all know that A&E is under incredible pressure throughout the country and we've heard questions about that from the two spokesmen just now. This creates a miserable experience, not just for patients, but also for staff who work there. I'm surprised therefore to see that the Aneurin Bevan University Health Board is proposing to reduce the opening times of two of their minor injuries units, Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny and Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr in Ystrad Mynach. In the case of Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, it's proposing making permanent what was billed as a temporary reduction of hours during COVID. Given that minor injury units are seen as a key component in a strategy to ease pressure on A&E departments, is it not a retrograde step, and will this make the Grange University Hospital an even longer and more frustrating experience for anyone visiting their A&E department and heap more pressure on the staff working there?

Well, thanks very much and it's obviously something that I know the health board has considered very seriously. But the fact is, in relation in particular to the Abergavenny minor injury unit, on average, there was one patient there overnight. Now, in these financial pressurised situations, it's very difficult to justify that on the basis of value for money. And that is one of the reasons why, certainly, they have moved to close that facility, and to move people to and encourage people to go to the new Grange hospital, where in fact we've put significant investment, and will be making significant additional investment in future years. We've put an extra £3.5 million capital funding to establish a same day emergency care centre, for example, in the Grange.

Minister, it's no secret, and you know better than anyone, that our health service is already under immense pressure, as was laid bare with the release of the data this week. With winter around the corner, it would appear things are set to get a lot worse. You mentioned the Grange, and I'm going to take the line as well: if we use it as an example, it just cannot cope with the demand of things as it stands, as I unfortunately found out first-hand when I visited the hospital with my mother with a serious health issue just a few weeks ago. Patients were left sitting around in any available space for hours on end, with staff who were doing their absolute best under the stressful circumstances—I must give them 10 out of 10—being pulled from pillar to post without any doctor in sight. Minister, this really isn't acceptable for any hospital, but especially not a hospital that's been hailed as the Government's flagship and has been open for less than three years. I understand that this is something that you did inherit, but, if this is what things are looking like at the moment, I hate to think what's looming as winter's going to be taking hold of all of us. I understand that the key issue for hospitals is the inability to discharge patients who require social care, going forward. So, Minister, I know you mentioned £3.5 million, but what additional moneys have been provided to health boards, particularly the Aneurin Bevan health board, to release the pressure in A&E? And what measures are the Welsh Government going to be taking to hold local authorities to account regarding the delivery of their statutory responsibilities?

Thanks very much. And thanks, first of all, for recognising the incredible work that staff at emergency departments undertake. I know that there's been a recent Public Health Wales survey that has demonstrated that 86 per cent of people agreed that emergency department staff treat them with kindness and respect, and I think we have absolutely got to pay tribute to those people, who are supporting people on the front line. We know that the whole system is under incredible pressure. That's why the health board has had an additional £6 million over the past two years. They have received, as I say, £3.5 million for that additional same day emergency care service in the Grange. And what's happened is about 600 patients a month have, effectively, been diverted from the emergency department, and around 75 per cent of them are avoiding admission. So, I think that's really important that we recognise that. We're expecting a submission from the health board in terms of expansion of the Grange emergency department; we're expecting a business justification case to be submitted by the end of this calendar year.

Post Brexit and post COVID, health-needed demand, as the Minister knows, has rocketed across the UK and Wales. The Aneurin Bevan University Health Board covers the most dense areas of industrial ill health, a former Objective 1 area, and of course the Welsh Index of Multiple Deprivation scalic need. So, the health board has stated:

'Like every other Health Board in Wales, we are facing the biggest financial challenge we have ever experienced and are doing everything we can to make efficiency savings without compromising the safety of patients and communities'.

So, Minister, there is no doubt that one factor impacting on pressures on accident and emergency departments is patients using A&E as that first port of call, and the additional £6 million from Welsh Government, as has been stated, is welcomed, as is the multi-million pound new SDEC unit. So, my question is: what dialogue is the Welsh Government having with general practitioners, therefore, and our pharmacies and the health board itself, to ensure that coherent working model that is communicated consistently to patients and my constituents?

Thanks very much, Rhianon. You're quite right to point out the fact that we are in a very difficult situation financially at the moment, so we've got to make absolute best use of the resources that we have, we've got to try and avoid people using the emergency departments as their first port of call. And that's why we've had a comprehensive programme now of Help Us Help You—there'll be a new communications programme that will be going out very soon—so that people are aware of those alternatives. The 111 service—it's quite incredible, I think, the numbers of people using the 111 service: about 71,000 people using that, 399,000 hits on the website. So, that's an example of where, actually, a lot of people might have been going to A&E and now they're not, but only about 15 per cent are diverted from 111 and actually sent to A&E.

We also have, of course, a very comprehensive community pharmacy system in place now, which is very different and far more advanced than it is England, and, of course, many of those now are able to prescribe. As I say, we've got the same day emergency care service, and we also have the urgent primary care services. So, all of those have come into play in the past two years, and all of that is taking pressure off the service. And I just imagine what the service might have looked like had we not put those measures in place.

The NHS (Wales) Act 2006 consolidates a range of regulatory requirements relating to the promotion and provision of the health service in Wales. All NHS bodies must also operate within the wider legislative framework governing all UK organisations. The Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 governs social care.

Diolch, Weinidog. I want to highlight to you how a family, while grieving the loss of their father, have had a further exhausting battle to understand why he deteriorated so quickly when he was in care. Colin had dementia and he was getting one-to-one care. He was happy, his family were trying to arrange for a care package to have him home, but, instead, he was transferred to another care home and that one-to-one care ceased. Now, within just eight days in the new care home, his condition deteriorated until he was found collapsed. He was given naloxone, a drug administered for opiate overdoses and he made a rapid recovery. However, none of Colin's prescribed medications were actually opiate-based. Now, this begs the question of how he got opiates in his system. And the family have tried to get answers from the health board, social services, from the care home. They've been rebuffed by Care Inspectorate Wales, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the ombudsman, as it's not in their remit to investigate an individual case. Every door is closed for a family who just want to challenge what happened to their dad. There is no accountability and no focus on the patient. So, Minister, could you tell me where do families like Colin's go to get full accountability and answers from those involved?

Thanks very much. I think—. Look, I can't comment on an individual case, of course, but, if there is a gap in the system, we obviously need to look at that. Obviously, Social Care Wales is the social care workforce regulator in Wales, but this might not fall within their remit. Audit Wales is another avenue that they could go down, but that's more, perhaps, to do with the public sector. So, if you can write to me about that, and at least we'll make sure that there's an understanding of what system they should be going down.

Minister, you'll be aware that regulators are only as good as the data and reporting available to them. And you'll also be aware that one of the significant issues identified in health services in north Wales in recent times has been the accuracy and transparency of data and reporting up to the board level, certainly making decision making and certainty very challenging. A recent live example of this showed itself in the £122 million fraud investigation at Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and we've even heard again today about, at the very least, a level of confusion, perhaps, when it comes to reporting of emergency department data. So, going back to that point that regulators are only as good as the data and reporting available to them, are you confident that regulators here in Wales are receiving and working with data that is accurate?

Thanks very much. Well, look, we've got to depend on the accuracy of the data. We get that data from the health boards; they have to follow guidelines that have been set for them. Obviously, if they don't, then there are consequences. So, what's important is that those consequences are followed through, as they are being at the moment in Betsi. So, there's a huge amount of work being done to make sure that that kind of situation doesn't arise again.

Look, I'm unhappy about, once again, the Conservatives trying to muddy the waters on the accuracy of our data that we've been given by health boards in relation to emergency departments. We are very clear that the assurances that we've been given by the health boards should be exactly those. And, as I say, independent data analysts can come in and ensure that the accuracy of that data stands up to scrutiny.

The current supply disruption to ADHD medicines is expected to be resolved between October and December 2023. The medicines shortage letter issued on 27 September sets out recommended actions for health professionals to support patient care until the current supply issues are resolved.

Thank you very much, Minister. As you said, the shortage has impacted as well, apparently, the UK particularly hard, especially with Elvanse. Takeda holds a near market monopoly in this sector, with no generic forms of this drug available on the market, hence why this is causing such distress to many people across Wales. And, as we know, attention deficit disorder associations say that untreated ADHD makes focusing, remembering details and controlling impulses harder, and ADHD UK state that one in 10 men or boys with ADHD and one in four women or girls with ADHD will, at some point, try to take their own life. Yet, I am being told that there is not very much support for them at the moment as they're being put onto smaller doses to get them through whilst we have this shortage. But my main question is, Minister, as the patent for Takeda UK to make Elvanse ran out on 24 February of this year, would it be worth the Welsh Government exploring the possibility of finding funding to support Elvanse being produced here in Wales so that we never have to be dependent like this again and so that the people of Wales never have to go short on their ADHD medication again. Diolch.

Well, thanks very much to Sarah Murphy for drawing the attention of everyone to the impact that this is having on people, and I know that it is an extremely serious situation for them. You will be aware that the supply of medicines is a responsibility of the UK Government, not the Welsh Government, and we won't be stepping into that space. It is their responsibility and we think it's right that it remains there. What I do know is that the Department of Health and Social Care has added all ADHD medications to the list of medicines that can't be exported, and that means that they will be prioritising available supplies for the UK market.

Minister, sadly medicine shortages do happen from time to time. This time it is due to increased global demand as well as manufacturing issues. Supply shortages are expected to be resolved within weeks or months, as you said. However, this is of little comfort to patients, as Sarah has said, particularly those prescribed guanfacine, which cannot be stopped suddenly. That's important in that drug. Minister, as GPs and ADHD services are being told not to start new patients on medication, how will this be managed to ensure ADHD patients receive the proper treatment as soon as possible?

Thanks very much. Well, I'm sure you will be pleased to hear that I've published a written statement on this matter today. You're absolutely right to say that the issue here is an increase in global demand. That is what's happening here, and the consequence is that the demand exceeds the manufacturer's capacity to produce a particular medicine. Sometimes there's a disruption to the supply of raw materials and problems encountered during the manufacturing process. I think it will be important for clinicians to make decisions in terms of when it's appropriate and how it's appropriate, but they have been given guidance in terms of what they should be prescribing from the pharmacy team in the Welsh Government.

Taking action to support hospices continues to be a priority for this Government and a programme for government commitment. We have delivered on phase 1 of that commitment, providing an additional £2.2 million for hospices on a recurrent basis from April 2022. We are now in the third phase of that commitment.

Thank you, Minister, for the answer. We know the incredible work that hospices do right across Wales in providing comfort, dignity and genuine quality care, and I want to place on record my thanks to those involved in the hospice sector, and to Mark Isherwood as well for his work chairing the cross-party group. They also take a huge amount of pressure off our NHS, which would otherwise be under even more pressure, allowing doctors and nurses within the health service to devote more time to caring for their patients. However, after meeting with hospice providers last week here in the Senedd, they informed me they don't receive the parity of funding with the NHS that they need to adequately recruit and retain staff within the sector. It's especially concerning as, following the pandemic, fundraising activity amongst volunteers has not recovered to pre-pandemic levels, placing even greater strain on hospices to provide the services that so many people rely on. So, looking ahead with an increasing elderly population and a shrinking taxable working-age population, particularly here in Wales, these pressures are only going to get worse, and they will get worse and worse over the decades to come unless serious action is taken. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government working collaboratively with the hospice care sector to ensure that they have the tools that they need to undertake their vital work?

Thanks very much. Well, you'll be very aware of the financial pressures that you heard all about yesterday, and, obviously, that's caused partly by inflation, partly by the calamity that was inflicted on us all by Liz Truss. I think it's really important that we recognise that there is a lot of pressure on palliative care and end-of-life care. We invest £10.5 million a year in palliative care, and we've provided an additional £2.2 million recently. And, obviously, we're now working towards the third phase of the commitment to review the situation. And, of course, you'll be aware that, during the pandemic, we allocated £13.8 million of emergency funding. Everyone is under pressure as a result of inflation. I spoke to some of those people who were in the Senedd last week, very aware of the pressure they're under. You'll be aware that we're not in a position at the moment to be handing additional money out; we're in a position where we're actually looking at every single penny that we spend. So, that is going to be very, very challenging for us, but I'm very pleased that what is happening is that Dr Idris Baker is leading our assessment of end-of-life care, and we'll wait to hear what he comes up with in terms of proposals.

Tŷ Olwen Hospice is based in Swansea East about a mile away from where I live. The specialist palliative care team based at Tŷ Olwen provides a service to Singleton, Morriston, Neath Port Talbot and outlying community hospitals. It also provides a community service to the people of Swansea and Neath Port Talbot, for which I and my constituents are very grateful. Will the Minister join with me in congratulating and thanking the volunteers who are an integral part of the work at Tŷ Olwen, and, on her next visit to Morriston Hospital, will she arrange to visit Tŷ Olwen?

Thanks very much, Mike, and, certainly, I know last week was Hospice Care Week, and I think that was a really opportune time for people to thank the workforce and to celebrate the incredible work and difficult work that is done in hospice care. I know first-hand, from speaking to families and carers, about the importance of receiving the right support from hospice staff and volunteers in Wales. We know that good palliative care can make a huge difference to the quality of life of patients at the end of their days, and helping them to die with dignity is important. So, I'd be happy to consider a visit to Tŷ Olwen, of course, if my diary commitments allow that to happen.

A huge amount of work is already being undertaken across Wales to improve both access to stroke services and outcomes for people following a stroke. This is being guided by the expectations set out in our stroke quality statement.

Can I thank the Minister for that answer this afternoon and also the answers to some of my written questions on stroke this week? You'll be aware, Minister, that the first few hours are critical after any patient suffers a stroke, and I recently met with a constituent of mine, Peter Hooper, who, following a stroke, had a thrombectomy within three hours. The speed of this emergency surgery made a huge difference to Peter's life. He's now gone on to run two half marathons. Without the thrombectomy in those three hours he would have been most seriously disabled. So, he's gone on to raise the money through those half marathons, indeed, but there are still so many patients out there who are missing out on this important treatment. They could be walking out of hospital and they are being disabled or, unfortunately and very sadly, they are dead because of the lack of the service and access to this life-saving procedure. Minister, can I thank you for answers in response to my written questions, which set out in detail what the Welsh Government is doing on stroke services, but what more can you do to ensure quick access to this life-saving surgery, thrombectomy?

Thanks very much, and it's good to hear about the incredible recovery. I had an incredible presentation last week from our leads on stroke across Wales. There is a really comprehensive programme of work that is being done. It’s not going to be switched on overnight, but there is a plan. Thrombectomy is absolutely central to that plan, and developing regional centres is important to that plan. I think we’ve got to acknowledge this is a highly specialised and skilled area. This is not going to be on every street corner in Wales. You’re going to have to have people who really know how to do this; we have to upskill people. But it is absolutely life changing, not just in terms of their quality of life, but also for the costs to their families, but also the costs to wider society, which are absolutely huge. Last week, I set out some of the projected costs for, I think, something like a 40 per cent increase in the number of people we expect to survive strokes in future. So, getting them to survive well is absolutely fundamental, and I just want to thank you for your real interest in this area.

I am aware of proposals for a new surgery in Waunfawr and of the ongoing discussions between Welsh Government officials, the health board and the regional partnership board to find an integrated solution for Waunfawr.

I had a meeting with doctors and staff at the Waunfawr surgery to discuss the delays in the development of the new surgery. They, like me, are very disappointed that there's been no progress with this plan, which, as you know, has been in the pipeline for years. It was one of the first issues that I dealt with as a Member of the new Senedd back in 2016, but things have been deteriorating rather than improving since then. The current surgery, which has 6,000 patients, is in poor condition and needs to be redeveloped. It is entirely inadequate for providing all of the services available, and often clinics have to be held in the hallway because of a lack of space. There's also a lack of space that is having an impact on the ability of the surgery to take medical students from the Bangor school of medicine for training. So, what can you as a Government do to support the development of a long-term plan, but also to respond to a situation that has deteriorated over a period of time at Waunfawr? I am truly concerned about the future of the practice and patient care across a broad area.

Thank you. You're aware that we have a commitment in our programme for government to invest in a new generation of health and care buildings, which are integrated buildings. This is supported by the integration and rebalancing capital fund, the IRCF. I know that the health board is working with that partnership to review the proposal that came before them, and they are trying to resubmit that to the panel. The next panel will meet in December, so hopefully, through better co-operation with local partners, it will be easier for the health board and the ICRF to accept what comes before them. But what's important, I think, is to emphasise the integrated elements of the scheme, and I think that we needed to ensure that that was strengthened in what came before the board making the decision.

Local authorities may apply interest on social care charges in limited circumstances, including deferred payment agreements on properties of persons in residential care, and in relation to outstanding repayments of charges after their death. It is right that authorities, covering such payments in a person’s lifetime, may levy appropriate interest.

Diolch, Dirprwy Weinidog. This issue was brought to my attention by a constituent who has been corresponding with me for a few months. Her family were assured that her grandmother's care fees would be paid through her grandmother's pension and then topped up by the local authority. The family were not allowed to care for their grandmother and she was moved from NHS care to a private care home. They're now facing care fees of over £100,000. On top of this, the council is now charging them interest on those fees. It just feels really wrong, Dirprwy Weinidog. Can you justify the reasoning for this practice, which impacts the most vulnerable, impoverished and the most bereaved in our society? Diolch yn fawr.

Well thank you, Rhys ab Owen, for that question. Under legislation local authorities have discretion to apply interest on a social care charge in some limited circumstances. The interest rate must be set in line with legal requirements and can accrue until the debt is repaid, which could be following a person's death.

Other limited circumstances where a local authority recovers a debt for outstanding care costs, and where interest can also be applied, are also set in legislation. So, it is legal to be able to do this. And the ability of local authorities to recover interest in some situations where, for example, they have covered the full amount of a person's social care charges during their lifetime is an important part of the framework for charging, and I don't have any immediate plans to change this. The code of practice is clear that the levying of interest is to be done in order to allow such things as deferred payment agreements to operate on a cost-neutral basis, including covering such things as the administration of the agreement.

So, I'm very sorry for the situation that your constituent finds herself in, but it's clear that this is a legal thing that is able to be done, and I don't think we have any plans to change it.

Finally, question 10. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Cwm Taf Morgannwg UHB and its regional partners are developing the business case for the Llantrisant health park. The current forecast date for construction is 2025, with all parties looking at how this can be brought forward. Alongside this, plans are being developed to provide temporary diagnostic capacity on the site by April 2024.

Minister, you'll be please to know that I and several other local and regional MSs had a sneak preview of this development in the last few weeks. I've got to say, it's very exciting because as this rolls into being over the next months and years, they're actually bringing together specialists, consultants and their wider teams in one unit to do diagnostics and treatment that will definitely have an impact on waiting times and waiting lists.

But we don't have to wait for that. I think there are other innovations going on. And could I ask the Minister whether she's seen the results of the orthopaedic surgeon Keshav Singhal and his team in the Princess of Wales Hospital, where they are doing day surgery and then getting people home much more rapidly, without taking up in-patient beds? Well patients going home where they want to be, but also getting earlier then into recuperation and literally on their feet, so avoiding other problems such as deep-vein thrombosis or loss of mobility as well.

We can do some of these things now, these innovations, in our current structure. How do we roll these out more across hospitals throughout Wales?

Thanks very much, Huw. And I know, I've heard that lots of you have had a little sneak preview and I'm looking forward to having a sneak preview myself. So, the great thing about this is that it's very much being led by the clinical teams and this is very much a regional approach to how we're going to deal with diagnostics in future, which is fundamental to so many things, but in particular, cancer. And I'm really worried about cancer, and how we drive forward, because the number of people whom we are referring for cancer diagnostics is increasing significantly. So, the development of the three regional hubs, the first one of which is going to be in Llantrisant, is really important and really significant.

Kesh is doing incredible work, in particular in relation to orthopaedics. We need to see a significant increase in the amount of day surgery we see, in particular in relation to orthopaedics. We know that GIRFT, which is the Getting It Right First Time approach, gives chapter and verse in terms of how we should be and could be improving productivity. There's a long way to go on improving productivity in relation to orthopaedics in particular, and if you look at the number of day cases there are real opportunities for increasing that. I think GIRFT suggests it could be up to 70 per cent; we are a long way from that in Wales at the moment. I know that things are improving. We're really pleased to see, for example, in Abergele, an absolute sea change in the way that things are happening in Abergele. But we need to see that being embedded and rolled out across the whole of Wales.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item will be the topical question. The question today is going to be answered by the Minister for Finance and Local Government and is to be asked by Sam Rowlands.

I work closely with local authorities to understand the pressures they face. I meet regularly with leaders, individually and through relevant groups such as the partnership council and the finance sub-group. I'm meeting the leader of Denbighshire council tomorrow and the finance sub-group on 25 October.

Thank you for your initial response, Minister. You will know, Minister, that councils and the services they provide are some of the most important in our communities, from schools and social care right through to emptying bins and filling potholes. So, clearly, it's very worrying for residents, staff and locally elected councillors when their council leader says,

'The main priority for cabinet at this point is to stop the council from going bankrupt,'

because, of course, it's trying to fill a £26 million shortfall.

So, I have a number of questions I'd like you to be able to answer this afternoon, please, Minister. The first one is: is this statement a surprise to you? If not, what have you been doing to ensure that the council is properly supported? If it is a surprise, are you confident that you have the right reporting systems in place to detect these concerns?

The second question is: this position of potential bankruptcy has been revealed through a private letter, which has found itself in the press. Now, opposition members have raised concerns that there's a lack of transparency and openness with Denbighshire's budget. Do you share these same concerns?

A final question, Minister, is that I've raised in this Chamber a number of times the need for an independent review of the funding formula, because whilst we have Denbighshire County Council on the edge of bankruptcy, we know that places like Rhondda Cynon Taf, Cardiff and Carmarthenshire have hundreds of millions of pounds squirreled away in reserves. So, will you accept today, as a result of a Labour leader of a council in north Wales, that this funding formula needs to be independently reviewed to ensure councils are not in this position in the future?

Well, just to reassure the Member and people living in Denbighshire, and all colleagues in the Chamber, I have been assured by the leader of the council today that Denbighshire will present a balanced budget. What the communication referred to does is, essentially, highlight the severe pressure that local government is under and the difficult decisions that they're going to have to take in order to balance the budget. That's not different in Denbighshire; that's the same pressure that is being experienced across local government.

Of course, it doesn't have to be this way. Difficult decisions, like the ones that we've heard about, do not need to be taken. All of this is avoidable. The UK Government can, on 22 November, at its autumn statement, invest in public services and provide the Welsh Government with the funding that we need to provide to local government. The UK Government is no friend of local government, we know that, whereas we work really hard with local government to understand their pressures.

So, in terms of that question about the reporting mechanisms that we have, we work constantly, and my officials are in constant contact with the treasurers right across local government here in Wales, and we understand the pressures. We have regular reports; we've got the finance sub-group meeting next week, where we'll be taking another paper that goes in detail through the pressures that local government is facing here in Wales. But it is avoidable, the UK Government can take action on 22 November, and I hope that the Member will join us in pressing the UK Government to invest in public services when it has the opportunity to do so.

We have done everything that we can to support local government. You will all be aware that the increase to the local government settlement this year was 7.9 per cent. That was a generous settlement and it was absolutely the furthest that we could go. This Government protected the revenue support grant when we undertook that very painful exercise reprioritising funding across Government—again, recognising the important services that we've heard about: schools, waste collection, social services. So, this Government will do everything that it can to protect public services, but it obviously needs the support of the UK Government to give us the funding to do so.

Let's be clear what the leader of Denbighshire council has said. He said,

'I just want to clarify: in no way are we saying that Denbighshire is going bankrupt,'

for the avoidance of doubt.

'What I wanted to stress was that what we've seen in England is councils going bust because they can't balance the books. But we are going to avoid that',

he says. So, let's not get ahead of ourselves and think that they're expecting to go bankrupt. But let's neither fool ourselves that it is a very challenging set of financial circumstances that all local authorities find themselves in. And I know for a fact, actually, that there are some local authorities in Wales that are in deeper waters and financial troubles than Denbighshire.

Now, that will require cuts in services and that will require increases in council tax, regrettably, because that is the only way that they can balance the books. And the Wales Governance Centre has illustrated to us the scale of challenge caused by a decade of Westminster austerity. The funding gap in local finance projected by 2027-28 is £0.75 billion. So, that's the scale of the challenge, and Denbighshire and others will have to grapple with that. But as the leader of Denbighshire says, the first priority is to make sure that they don't go bankrupt and that they do balance the books. Unlike, of course, some councils in England that have gone bankrupt.

Now, you've addressed, somewhat, what arrangements you might have in place were it to come to the worst in any local authority in Wales. So, I'll just ask, maybe, if I may, Minister, as council taxes, regrettably, are likely to go up in many councils in Wales, we know that that hits the poorest the hardest, doesn't it, because it is a regressive tax and the regressive nature of council tax means that it's those less well-off who carry a disproportionate burden when those taxes go up. So, would you not agree with me that this, again, underlines the need to reform council tax in Wales to make it fairer, so that it isn't the least well-off in society who are, once again, paying the price for Tory austerity?

I'm very grateful to the Member for the question. I'm very proud of the work that we've been doing in partnership with Plaid Cymru as part of our co-operation agreement on making council tax fairer. And I'd just like to put on record, really, my appreciation for the work that has been done in that space. Now, we're coming to the point when we will be having our phase 2 consultation, so I'll be saying more about that shortly, and that will help us look more closely at what the road ahead looks like. Having done phase 1 consultation and gotten broad views, it's now about narrowing down the horizon in terms of the choices that we will make. But as colleagues recognise, council tax is a regressive tax; we want to make it a fairer council tax and we are very committed to doing so.

I thank Sam Rowlands for tabling this important subject in the Senedd today. As the local Member for the vast majority of Denbighshire, I'm personally horrified to read of this news of trying to avoid bankruptcy in the council. And to me, it sums up the weak, lethargic and febrile Labour leadership of this council since the local elections in 2022, coupled with a Labour Welsh Government who can't see the wood for the trees in working up a solution to this ever-growing problem.

I was a member of Denbighshire council for five years and it's sad to see the current state of this council under this new leadership, which has been failure after failure since day 1. And quite frankly, the leadership are out of their depth and out of ideas on how to manage this council, and some have been using their senior positions to promote their own political ambitions.

For many years, politicians of all persuasions have argued the case for a fair funding formula for north Wales authorities to match that of those in south Wales and we are desperately short-changed in comparison to other areas, leaving difficult decisions to be made on the day-to-day running of services, which have an impact on people's everyday lives. So, will the Minister finally accept that a review of the Welsh Government's funding formula to councils is in need of radical reform to ensure that a fair system is in place for everyone in Wales, no matter where they live?

I'll begin by saying that the start of the contribution was a very lazy contribution to what is a really, really serious issue. I actually commend the leader of Denbighshire council for the work that he's done in identifying the pressures early on and working to seek a solution. There is no suggestion at all that any part of Wales on a geographic basis is disadvantaged by the funding formula. Of course, four of the six north Wales authorities received increases to their budgets that were in excess of the average across Wales in this financial year. So, we do look at the formula all of the time; we look at the data, we make changes, the distribution sub-group makes a whole range of recommendations on an annual basis. We're not looking at a whole-scale review of the funding formula at the moment; obviously, if the Welsh Local Government Association wanted to come forward with that suggestion, we would be open to that. But let's remember, the last question was in relation to council tax reform. Council tax reform has a potential—depending on which option is taken, of course—to quite drastically change the tax base of local authorities, so there would be significant churn there. That, on top of a review of the funding formula, which could take a number of years, I think would introduce a lot of uncertainty into the system. We are, therefore, concentrating at the moment on making council tax fairer and updating the funding formula to make sure that it uses the latest information.

As a former leader of a north Wales council, my colleague Sam Rowlands knows just as well as I do, as a former deputy leader and cabinet member, the pressures local authorities are under following 13 years of Tory austerity. Councils right across the UK have been pushed to breaking point by a toxic combination of more than a decade of cuts, huge inflationary pressures, a cost-of-living crisis and a total mismanagement of the economy. There will be red lines that they are looking at now; I remember that—year upon year of facing this. You don't want to cut education; I remember that. Some councils did take the decision to cut education funding. These red lines are really difficult to cross, and this is probably why the leader has said they could be facing bankruptcy—this is how serious it is. But I know that Denbighshire will set a balanced budget, as councils always have to do, but they will be forced to make these very difficult decisions. I know I've asked for you to look at the funding formula—the pie is too small coming from here, but coming from the UK Government. And I'm sure that councils right across the UK will be faced with these really tough decisions. So, Minister, have your UK counterparts given you any reassurances that they may truly understand the chaos they have caused and are willing to take mitigation to help our front-line services—not just in Wales, but across the UK? Thank you.

Thank you very much for the question. There's no indication at all from the UK Government that it understands the struggles that local governments are facing—certainly not in England, and I know that they're not interested in the trials of local authorities here in Wales. But that said, we will continue to make the case very strongly to them. I've already written to the Chancellor ahead of the 22 November autumn statement setting out what our asks are for Wales, and right at the top of that is the investment in public services so that we are able to provide local government and the NHS with the funding that they need to be able to deliver the kind of services that we want for everybody in Wales.

Minister, it's very clear that the comments from the leader of Denbighshire council were unwise, unhelpful, alarmist and have stoked some fear amongst the local population about what their council tax might look like next year. In fact, these comments appear to me to be nothing more than paving the way for another huge and inflation-busting council tax increase for local residents. So, can I ask you: will you do the sensible thing, as is the case in England, and set a clear cap on council tax for the forthcoming new financial year—next year—so that excessive increases can be the subject of a local referendum? I think local people deserve a say on these matters, and I think it's wrong that they haven't had one in the past.

Just to be clear, setting a cap wouldn't lead to a referendum in any case, but a cap is a tool that Welsh Ministers do have if they feel that, in any case, a local authority is intending to introduce a council tax increase that is palpably excessive. Obviously, every year, we take a look at that afresh, so we have no idea yet what kind of increases local government is expecting to make. That's partly because we haven't yet had the autumn statement, we haven't published our Welsh Government budget, so they don't have the figures to plan on yet. Obviously, they'll be undertaking preliminary work with some assumptions, but until we have actual proposals from local government, it's impossible to take a view on whether or not we would introduce a cap.

Thank you, Minister.

Item 4 is the 90-second statements. First, Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. This week is Irlen Syndrome Awareness Week, a worldwide effort to make more people aware of the syndrome and its symptoms. Irlen syndrome is a problem with the brain's ability to process visual information and tends to run in families. The most common symptoms include light sensitivity, reading problems, headaches and migraines, attention and concentration issues, as well as fatigue.

I must admit I didn't know much about Irlen syndrome until I was contacted by Jennifer Owen, one of my constituents. I want to pay tribute to Jennifer, who was diagnosed with Irlen syndrome in 2012, for her tireless work in raising awareness about the condition. She has given countless presentations and talks, become an Irlen ambassador, created the Voice for People with Irlen Syndrome group and has held many events. She was also recognised by the high sheriff of Mid Glamorgan for her wonderful work.

Jennifer could not read or write properly without words disappearing or going back and forth, but since getting Irlen spectral filters, her life has been transformed, and now she's helping transform the lives of others. She is truly an inspiration, so I want to say a huge 'thank you' to Jennifer for everything that she's done and continues to do. I'd encourage everyone to visit www.irlen.com to see how they can get involved in Irlen awareness week going forward.

Today is World Menopause Day, observed every year to raise awareness about the impact of the menopause on the lives of women around the world. To mark this occasion, I'm pleased to say that all further education colleges in Wales have signed the menopause workplace pledge. The pledge was created by the Wellbeing of Women charity to encourage employers to take positive action in making sure everyone going through the menopause is supported. Menopause is often not talked about in the workplace, and many people don't understand it until it happens to them or to someone close to them. While some will have no problems, others will struggle with debilitating side effects that impact on all aspects of their lives. Many will feel they have no alternative but to leave a job they love. By signing the pledge, all colleges in Wales are committed to recognise that the menopause can be an issue in the workplace and women need support; to talk openly, positively and respectfully about the menopause; and to actively support and inform employees affected by the menopause. The sector has responded to the need to put in place support and guidance for staff, and I'm pleased to acknowledge our colleges for their continued commitment to making further education a safe and inclusive sector in which to work.

The Pembrokeshire Lottery was set up 30 years ago to provide a fund that Pembrokeshire businesses could access at no cost to invest in their futures, creating and retaining jobs in Pembrokeshire. It was the brainchild of the late Danny Fellows, who joined with Mike Peake and Bob Clarke to launch a local lottery that predated the National Lottery by a year. Danny asked local oil refinery managers to provide seed funding to provide the first few months of prize money and encouraged large employers to offer the option of a small monthly salary deduction of £4.34 to fund ongoing prize money, a purchase option that remains to this day. It's a true example of local people raising money to grow their local communities and economy.

The first draw was made in November 1993, and few back then would ever have believed that in 2023 we would be celebrating the Pembrokeshire Lottery's thirtieth birthday. Having grown up with the Pembrokeshire Lottery, its forces for good can be felt right across the county. Over 500 businesses have been supported with over £8.2 million in interest-free loans, creating and safeguarding over 2,500 jobs. Award-winning hospitality companies such as the Grove hotel and Cafe Môr are just two examples of businesses that have benefited from the lottery in their early years. From humble beginnings in 1993, the loan fund now stands at over £2 million, and that is mainly due to the phenomenal support the Pembrokeshire Lottery has received from local people. The lottery is one of the most successful such schemes in the UK, and one that we all should be extremely proud of. Happy thirtieth birthday to the Pembrokeshire Lottery, and here’s to the next 30 years. Diolch.

We move on now to item 5, a debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report, 'Local Authority Library and Leisure Services', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I’m pleased to open this debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee’s report on local authority leisure and library services. I’d like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry, and to those who facilitated visits to libraries and leisure sites across Wales.

Leisure centres and libraries enrich people’s lives and their communities. They provide a place to meet, to expand knowledge and support health and well-being. But councils have found it increasingly challenging to maintain these services due to budget cuts and global financial and health crises. As a result, many councils have sought to deliver services differently by establishing local authority trading companies, or transferring them to social enterprises or community groups.

We firstly considered whether there is a need to strengthen statutory and policy frameworks to protect these vital services from further cuts and closures. There is already a statutory duty on councils under the Public Libraries and Museums Act 1964 to provide a comprehensive and efficient library service, but we heard that this has not prevented the erosion of funding, or indeed prevented library closures. Stakeholders told us that the Act doesn’t do an awful lot, and that the provisions are too broadly defined. We called on the Welsh Government to explore whether it should strengthen the Act to protect libraries. The Welsh Government hasn’t committed to a full review of the provisions in the Act, but rather emphasised the role of the Welsh public library standards in delivering on the duties within the legislation. The Welsh Government has committed to exploring our recommendation further, however, and I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister could explain how this recommendation will be taken forward.

The Welsh public library standards set out how the Welsh Government’s expectations on local authorities in terms of their library provision will be met. We heard the current standards expired in 2020, and are concerned about the lack of progress on developing new standards to support the library sector. Some stakeholders called for a complete revamp of the standards given recent developments in how services are used and new innovations to deliver them. We recommended that work on the new standards should be progressed as a matter of urgency. We are pleased that this recommendation has been accepted, but note that the new Welsh public library framework will not be implemented until 2025, five years after the standards expired.

We are concerned that library services are often overlooked or undervalued within the wider context of public service provision. We were therefore pleased to hear that the new library standards are being developed in tandem with the new culture strategy. However, there are questions around how that will work in practice, and I would be grateful if the Deputy Minister could provide more detail on how that culture strategy will dovetail with the new standards, and how she is working with the Minister for Finance and Local Government and respective officials on this.

Unlike library services, leisure services are provided on a discretionary basis. While we were not convinced of the need for legislation, we would like to see a policy framework for public leisure provision, which links to health and well-being services. We believe this would support better joined-up policies focused on prevention and positive health outcomes and go with the grain of much current development, where lots of leisure providers are increasingly becoming health and well-being services. We are therefore pleased that the Welsh Government accepted this recommendation.

We explored the various models of service delivery in use and their advantages and disadvantages. There was a clear message that there should not be a one-size-fits-all approach. Different models will suit different local authorities, depending on geography, needs of the community, resources and many other factors. We agree it should be up to local authorities to decide what delivery model suits them. However, we would like to see more sharing of good practice and experiences. So, we called for the Welsh Government to work with local authorities to support this, and I welcome the Welsh Government’s acceptance of this recommendation.

We heard of the significant social value of leisure and library services. Sport Wales told us that for every £1 spent on sport, there was a social return of £2.88. And according to Community Leisure UK Wales, leisure trusts create £101 of social value per person using their facilities and services, which is measured through savings to the NHS, reduced crime levels and improved mental and physical health of communities.

However, we heard that insufficient emphasis is placed on social value when local authorities determine how best to deliver leisure and library services. We want to see Welsh Government working with councils to consider what social value outcomes they want to achieve through public leisure and library services, and design and deliver services accordingly. Having up-to-date, Wales-specific data on social value that is shared with local authorities would help them make informed decisions about service delivery. We are therefore grateful that Welsh Government accepted our calls for collating and analysing social value and return on investment of library and leisure services.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we also looked at the increased use of community hubs, whereby local authorities are co-locating some of their services to save on costs and to improve accessibility. We heard that, to date, evidence suggests that co-location may have increased the use of services, reduced costs and contributed to the resilience of services. However, we also heard of challenges in co-locating services in rural areas due to transport issues. Those issues, including community transport, should be a key consideration in any decision to co-locate. As hubs are a relatively new innovation, we recommend that the Welsh Government continues to monitor and evaluate their success, and that findings are shared with local authorities in order to inform their decision making. We believe that local authorities must adopt an intelligent approach to decision making on co-location, particularly in relation to library services.

And as is so important in the current context, we looked at the financial and operational challenges currently facing local authorities and delivery partners to maintain these vital services. Rising energy costs have had a significant impact on leisure facilities in particular, especially those with swimming pools. Leisure and library services are in need of immediate support to help them navigate the current crisis. We recommended that the Welsh Government allocates the £3.5 million it will receive in consequential funding to swimming pools, especially those that may be unviable without additional support.

Can I begin by thanking my colleague and committee Chair, John Griffiths, for opening this debate, and all those who have been responsible for producing this report on local authority library and leisure services? I'm pleased to see that a large number of recommendations have been accepted, or accepted in principle, by the Minister. In my remarks today, I want to pick up on two that have been rejected.

The first is recommendation 13, that the Welsh Government should provide targeted funding for those venues and organisations that face closure but have a sustainable future. I understand that the Welsh Government will not commit to providing additional funding. However, I would like to raise that there is an element of false economy here. If we let venues and organisations close, not only will it take even more funding later on to reopen them, we will also lose trained staff, who often have valuable and considerable experience. Replacing these would not only be very hard, but would more often than not come at a considerable expense, especially when you take into account retraining costs. Moreover, losing venues such as libraries and leisure centres has an immeasurable impact on the community, both in the short term and long term, on their health and well-being and their sense of identity, and we should be very aware that there's a wider economic fallout when venues close. People are less likely to travel to an area when there are fewer amenities on offer, and the fallout can be directly felt by local businesses, who consequently see a drop in footfall.

The war in Ukraine will eventually come to an end, and market forces will correct the higher energy costs, food prices and fuel prices we are currently experiencing. We have seen inflation fall considerably in recent months, and there's very good reason to believe that we will soon see inflation return to target levels. It therefore seems rather shortsighted to allow venues to close that have a long-term future, simply because short-term financing will not be provided by the Welsh Government. The obvious counter-argument is where does the Welsh Government get this money from, but I would argue that the Welsh Government needs to think creatively about how it can possibly use its position to act as a guarantor for public venues to raise investment by themselves.

The second recommendation I'm disappointed to see rejected is No. 15. I think the Welsh Government should develop and work with leisure providers on a strategy to encourage primary schools to provide free swimming lessons. It is not enough to say that you agree with the intention but are mindful of the current financial position of schools. I'm sure it is clear to everyone here that if you cannot be bothered even to start thinking about how every primary school could provide swimming lessons, then free swimming lessons are never, ever going to be available to all primary school children. Learning to swim is more that just being able to do a specific physical activity; it has been shown that swimming is a life skill that directly influences people's confidence and self-esteem. The provision for swimming is patchy at best, and whilst I can see that school finances are under pressure, it isn't right to say that you're not even going to start planning a future strategy. Swimming facilities that are owned and operated by the council should have a duty to make available time for schools, at either reduced rates or free, and this doesn't necessarily have to be during the school day. To save on bus travel, schools could ask parents to take their children directly to leisure centres at the beginning of the day, or have lessons after school, whereby parents could collect their children directly from the leisure centres. I honestly believe that there needs to be more creative thinking on how to solve some of these problems, rather than just saying that more money is needed.

The importance of libraries and leisure services to communities right across Wales cannot be overstated. They're often used as warm hubs, well-being centres, to access information about services, and links to online information. They've become more vibrant community facilities and hubs of activity over recent years, and librarians are being asked to be multiskilled advisers, delivering a variety of services. We discussed if this is acceptable for a librarian who is highly skilled and that that skill may be lost.

Leisure centres provide vital services. Learning to swim is a life skill, and it is a concern, according to Swim Wales, that only 52 per cent of children moving to high school have this life-saving skill. Aura Wales explained that one of the main challenges is

'trying to explain to people who have other budgetary demands that we can save you money. So, we do save...the public health service, the police, in terms of anti-social behaviour, and local authorities in terms of some of their social services'.

Access can be an issue. North Wales and rural areas are particularly affected because of lag and the cost of public transport to access services. Schools are struggling to take children for swimming lessons because of the cost of public transport, and Councillor Carwyn Jones of Anglesey council said it would be difficult to set up an alternative delivery model in such areas. And it's often those from disadvantaged backgrounds who are impacted the most regarding affordability, which is a huge concern to both committees I'm a member of.

I know the Welsh Government set out in its response to recommendations that it will continue to work with community transport partners to improve accessibility. A decade of austerity, with cuts in local authority budgets, and rising energy costs, has caused leisure centres and libraries to be fragile. Many pools, leisure centres and libraries were changed to alternative operating models during this time, as councils restructured and reorganised to try to save money. But many of them are still receiving core funding from councils, as they are not self-sustainable. It's enabled them to apply for grants and receive rebates depending on their status. Councillor Rob Stewart from Swansea noted that the local government settlement, despite being more than was expected, is still well below inflation, and the inflation has caused huge pressures. He said that in most councils education and social care will take the majority of the budget, so you've got to try and cover all of your other services with what's left. Employment can be difficult, as the jobs are not well paid and volunteers are in short supply. Aura Wales in Flintshire also noted that there are costs associated with bringing people into the sector in terms of paying for qualifications, such as national pool lifeguard, and swimming teachers. The cost-of-living crisis has also impacted on people returning to use leisure centres post COVID, and rising energy costs have had a big impact on leisure facilities, as swimming pools are expensive to heat and were left out of the UK Government's energy discount scheme last year.

Can I begin by thanking the committee for its important work on this issue? I don't think we will find any disagreement here about the importance and value of both libraries and community facilities and leisure services, in particular. They are the heart of many of our communities and people value them so, so much. It's become evident in your evidence, and we know that from our own regions and constituencies that we represent and from our personal experiences. I'm sure may of us learnt to swim in leisure centres et cetera, and have so much to thank both libraries and leisure services for for the contribution they make.

We know that they're not just a luxury or nice to have. They're absolutely essential. That's why we saw miners' institutes and welfare halls become so, so important, and acknowledging that role of both books, but also fun and enjoyment. And what we're talking about here is actually supporting people's health and well-being, mental health, as well as core skills, and we're talking about the prevention agenda in terms of health as well. Leisure services are absolutely essential. And, for many people, whom we know struggle at home with homework for a whole variety of different reasons—it may be that you don't have a quiet space at home or you're not supported—libraries are really valuable for children and young people, and, in terms of tackling poverty, so, so important. So, I don't think there's a debate here about why we need them and how important they are. The issue, I think, comes down to money, simply. But it's an issue we've been aware of with austerity and so on, and it's become increasingly more difficult for local authorities to provide these services.

One of the things I was reflecting on when reading your report was what consideration was given to the expert review of public libraries that was undertaken nine years ago. And then I revisited 'Scoping a New Future for Welsh Public Libraries' from eight years ago, and many of the recommendations were similar then. Specifically, point 13 mentions

'some of the drawbacks of the 1964 Act'

and, as you rightly saw in the evidence here, there are pluses and minuses in terms of progressing that. But it did recommend then that

'discussion should continue on the perceived benefits of replacing the current Act',

with the acknowledgement that it would take at least three years to resolve. But also the emphasis very much was on ensuring that we provide a future for these community service hubs and so on, and really think about what they are. So, we're going back nine and eight years here, and I think what's perhaps concerning to me is that we haven't perhaps seen that progress. So, I wonder if one of the things that we should be pressing is also what work has happened in the meantime between the publication of these. Are there any plans by Welsh Government to once again commission an expert review of public libraries? Because I just see that we haven't really progressed from that time, and many of the documents relating to public libraries are quite outdated on the Welsh Government's website by now, and there's a lot of work from about a decade ago, rather than now. And I'm glad that you're filling that void through the committee's work, but I do think that we need some specific work here to really understand what's going on. If I may as well, I think that's where I do support the committee, in terms of that 1964 Act, that we need to see really what's going to change and how that's going to be progressed, if it hasn't been to date.

I just want to start by also thanking those involved in bringing this report together: colleagues on the committee, in particular the Chairman, John Griffiths, for leading us through another committee report process, but of course also those members of staff on the committee who provided us with such useful information.

There is a risk here, as Heledd Fychan just mentioned, that we could break out into unholy agreement on the broader importance of library and leisure services to our communities. I'm certainly grateful to those libraries and leisure services that opened their doors to us as committee members to understand some of the opportunities and challenges in front of them. And they were certainly keen to reiterate the point that has already been mentioned here today, which is the role that those facilities and those people supporting those facilities play in the preventative agenda, especially in terms of both physical and mental health. It's spaces and services like these that clearly have a huge impact on preventing these issues becoming a bigger problem in our communities.

And this became very clear as we heard and saw evidence from those providers during our committee sessions to support this, and it has again been backed up by further information, as the Chairman, John Griffiths, mentioned, from Swim Wales, Community Leisure UK and the Welsh Sports Association. So, the point is on this, and it has already been made, I do understand, that these services must not be seen in isolation. And that's why I think that recommendation 6 within our report is so important. And, Deputy Minister, I'm really pleased that the Government was able to accept this recommendation, alongside others, which reflects that broader point of the importance of libraries and leisure services in supporting the preventative agenda.

I do want to take a moment just to highlight a couple of specific recommendations that I want to bring our attention to. The first is recommendation 12. That recommendation seeks to support the allocation of £3.5 million in consequential funding from the UK Government to support swimming pools in particular, particularly those ones that could be unviable without this much-needed support. That's exactly the point that my colleague Carolyn Thomas made in her contribution, that UK Government funding being passported over to ensure that these facilities can remain sustainable. And I must say I was disappointed that the Welsh Government rejected this recommendation. So, I'd like to be able to hear, perhaps, from the Deputy Minister today an expansion on her reasoning for that, because, as we've already just discussed and people have already highlighted, it's that physical fitness and mental well-being that is vital for people, and swimming is key to that, not only on an individual level, but on a social level for people of all ages as well. That's the beauty of something like swimming. It's accessible right from the very youngest right through to those who are oldest in our communities. Others have already mentioned the importance of developing those essential survival skills as well. So, the sustainability of swimming pools in particular, I think, is really important, and I'd like to hear the Deputy Minister's reasoning for that £3.5 million not being passported over to them.

Firstly, I'd like to put on record my thanks to the Chair, the clerking and research team, and my fellow committee members for their work on this important area. We're really grateful to all those who took time to give evidence to us all around Wales.

The earlier young people have the opportunity to visit a leisure provider or provision or a library, the better. With the public health challenges ahead, it's crucial that all communities have access to good-quality affordable leisure facilities. They really do have a major role to play. Newport Live have been doing excellent work in my constituency, constantly innovating and making use of the space in the city, most recently, with the opening of the new affordable tennis courts at Tredegar Park and the introduction of tennis sessions for all ages. However, I'm going to concentrate most of my contribution this afternoon on libraries.

The first library that I went to as a child was Maindee library. I cannot emphasise enough the impact going to those public facilities had when I was growing up. I spent a lot of my childhood at the Maindee Baths swimming pool, and my love of books and reading is very much part of my life today, thanks to Maindee and central libraries. Through the dedication and commitment and perseverance of volunteers, Maindee library was transferred from the local authority to the community, keeping it alive, and it remains very much at the heart of that community in my good friend John Griffiths's constituency. In my constituency of Newport West, we've seen the excellent example of Cwtsh, which again was transferred from the local authority to a community group, who run it as a community space with a fantastic children's library section. Remaining in local authority control in my constituency, we have Malpas, Rogerstone and Bettws libraries. These are really important in making sure these services are close to people—something that's important in terms of being able to access all of those services.

I'm also proud to have Newport Museum and Art Gallery and the central library in my constituency, and this is an example where we have recently seen council services move into the building in order to pool their costs. The challenge here, however, will be how to attract more people up those stairs to visit the library. I think that will be important, and that's why I think recommendation 10 will be useful in terms of monitoring and evaluating the efficiency and effectiveness of co-locations in Wales, and sharing the findings with local authorities. Libraries are a warm, safe space for people of all ages, from reading groups to providing support with curricula vitae, and much, much more. As Unison Cymru said in their evidence, it's access to books that you don't have to pay for, so it provides that equal platform for communities.

Thank you very much to the committee for this important report.

The Welsh Government's 'A Healthier Wales' strategy is based on a vision that everyone in Wales should have longer, healthier and happier lives and be able to remain active and independent. This is echoed by one of the goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which aims to build a society in which people's physical and mental well-being is maximised, and in which choices and behaviours that benefit future health are understood.

The health Minister has also spoken recently about the need to encourage people to assume greater responsibility for looking after their own health and well-being, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to square these ambitions against the reality that the provision of leisure services across Wales is being stretched to breaking point, which will naturally have a devastating impact on the health and well-being agenda of this Government. Let's be clear: ensuring that Welsh communities have access to leisure facilities is a public health necessity. My colleague Mabon ap Gwynfor has spoken often in this Chamber about the critical importance of embedding the preventative agenda in every facet of our approach to healthcare policy in Wales. Quite simply, the future of our NHS depends on it. The robust provision of leisure facilities across Wales must be a key plank of this approach, especially given the urgent need to ease the pressure on our beleaguered NHS. For example, Obesity Alliance Cymru has calculated that without urgent action to combat rates of obesity in Wales, it's likely that the NHS will be facing additional costs of £465 million in 2050.

As is the case with the closure of library services, it is the most deprived elements of our society that are disproportionately penalised by shortcomings in the provision of public leisure facilities, a state of affairs that, as noted by a recent report by Public Health Wales, has been exacerbated by the ongoing cost-of-living crisis. The most recent child measurement programme for Wales has shown that children living in the most deprived areas of Wales are almost twice as likely to be obese as those in the least deprived areas.

There is a clear appetite among Welsh adults and children alike to be afforded more opportunities for exercise. For example, the Sport Wales school sports survey in 2022 found that 61 per cent of Welsh primary school children want to swim more, while the national survey for Wales in 2021 found that 234,000 Welsh adults want to swim more. But this aspiration is being stifled by the cutbacks being made by local authorities to their provision of public leisure facilities after over a decade of austerity and underinvestment from Westminster.

The fight to save Pontllanfraith leisure centre from closure at the hand of Labour-controlled Caerphilly County Borough Council is a great example. My Plaid Cymru colleague Councillor Rhys Mills has done a great job of galvanising support throughout the town and surrounding area to save the prized leisure facility and community asset, and that fight goes on, and I want to support him and the committee in that work.

Just a brief contribution from me, if I may. There is a consultation that is live at the moment in Denbighshire County Council on reducing the hours of the county's libraries. We discussed earlier this afternoon the financial pressures facing local authorities, and, of course, when you look at it, the likelihood or the possibility is that some of these services will be lost over the next months and years.

There are often only two choices, you would assume: one, closing a few libraries to protect the others, or reducing the hours of all of the libraries across the county. It isn't a choice that anyone would want to make, if truth be told, but I would encourage people to respond to that consultation because, as we've heard, libraries are a far more important resource than just a repository for books.

However, I would like to highlight what's happening in Conwy County Borough Council, where there's an opportunity for the community to play a more prominent role when it comes to running libraries. There are five rural community libraries in Conwy and the local community councils contribute towards employing a member of staff to provide that service. Conwy council, the county council, of course, still provides the books and sorts the HR side of things, but then there's a charity that takes over the building, and they then can access alternative sources of funding to pay the building costs and for the heating, lighting and so on. Now, it's early days, but I was looking at the seventh recommendation in the report when it comes to sharing best practice and different models of service provision, and I do think that there's an opportunity here, perhaps, to look at alternative ways of providing services.

There are also online services, of course; they are a reality now, aren't they, although the numbers using them vary from time to time and from area to area. The long-term trajectory is quite clear: I'm a member of Denbighshire libraries, and through that I have become a member of Libby and BorrowBox, which allows me to borrow e-magazines, e-books and so on, so that online shift is an important part of the debate as well, as we look at the future of services.

But I just wanted to thank the committee for the work that has been done. It's very timely, of course, and I would urge the Deputy Minister and the Government to urgently implement these recommendations, because services are being cut now, and once they're gone, they're gone forever, as was said earlier, and it would be regrettable if we, in a year or two, were taking action on some of these recommendations, when by that time, it may be too late for several of our libraries.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thanks to Members for an interesting and very wide-ranging debate this afternoon. I'm very grateful to the committee for their time and effort spent in producing this report, and to those who provided evidence.

Now, the wide-ranging nature of the recommendations and the debate itself highlight the continuing importance of local government in delivering these key services and the importance of leisure centres and libraries to local communities. This has been reinforced by the contributions to today's debate, and I agree with all that has been said in support of these important services.

Many areas that have been raised during the debate are the responsibility of other ministerial colleagues, particularly the Minister for Finance and Local Government, because of the funding calls in particular for local government services, so I'm sure that they will all be listening to this and will be interested to hear what has been said this afternoon. So, while I will focus my response on the areas that sit directly within my portfolio, I will, as I did in committee, also attempt to address a few of the points on behalf of my Cabinet colleagues. But if those are not dealt with, I will ensure that further information is provided to you as Chair of the committee, as necessary.

Obviously, there has been concern raised today on funding for our swimming pools and library services, and the fact is that, prior to the specific support scheme for pools announced by the UK Government, as a Welsh Government, despite our own budgetary pressures, we did prioritise front-line public services by providing an improved £5.5 billion settlement for local government this year—a settlement that was welcomed by the Welsh Local Government Association. No authority received less then a 6.5 per cent increase and so, for each authority, it is down to them to determine how they use that funding to respond to local needs and priorities. But I do, of course, recognise the tough choices that remain, due to challenging economic circumstances. We heard that earlier today in the topical question discussion, and which we all recognise has been caused by the inflationary pressures, resulting from Tory mismanagement of the economy of the UK.

But to deal specifically with the UK Government swimming pools support, and the use of consequentials in Wales, as I said in committee, this £3.5 million was split—£1.2 million revenue and £2.3 million capital—and that would amount to no more than approximately £10,000 for each swimming pool in Wales to deal with their immediate energy costs. That is actually less than what is needed for many, for one month's fuel bills. Now, an important principle of devolution is that consequential funding is not necessarily ring-fenced for the same purpose for which it was allocated by the UK Government. So, we took a strategic decision that this would not be effective and our efforts would be better spent on supporting pools and leisure centres to manage energy efficiency in the longer term, through schemes like the Welsh Government energy service, which is a key enabler in providing technical and financial help to the public sector, to deliver on the collective ambition of a net-zero public sector by 2030, and which would supplement anything that the local authorities were doing to support leisure services through their budget settlement.

If I move on to recommendation 3, we are in the process of developing a new culture strategy for Wales. The culture strategy is a co-operation agreement commitment between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru, and I've worked collaboratively with the designated Member from the outset, to provide the direction and steer, so that the strategy reflects Wales in all its diversity. Given the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 goal of a Wales of vibrant culture, and the Act's focus on sustainable approaches to cultural well-being in Wales, this strategy will be one for the whole of Government, but it has a clear focus on our libraries, archives, museums, heritage and arts sector. Our approach to developing the strategy included working with an external partner to engage with sector representatives and community groups earlier this year, and this process included conversations with representatives of the public library sector. We've developed a first draft of the strategy, and it fully acknowledges the importance of the library sector and recognises library services as an integral part of our cultural offer in Wales—and that was set out very powerfully by the contributions from Heledd Fychan and Jayne Bryant.

Now, I carefully considered the committee's recommendation 9 for a libraries task force, but for the moment, I feel that it's more appropriate to concentrate our efforts on strengthening the existing programme of promotional work rather than setting up a new body now, in advance of the culture strategy, which would basically be duplicating existing work. The draft culture strategy and the renewed framework for Welsh public library standards are being developed simultaneously, and I can confirm that culture officials are working together to ensure that they are aligned, and I will give further updates to the committee as this work progresses.

I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. May I thank all Members who took part in the debate? It's always nice to have Members not on the committee taking part as well, so I particularly welcome those contributions, and also local examples of the challenges we face but also potential ways of overcoming those challenges, protecting services and taking them forward.

I think there were some strong common themes in contributions, Dirprwy Lywydd, around the importance of leisure for health and making those links, and I'm really pleased that, as a committee, we brought to the fore, I think, some of the issues and made that recommendation about a policy framework that takes both forward effectively. Jayne Bryant mentioned Newport Live, and I know they very much see themselves as a health and well-being service increasingly now. They really want to fulfil that role and do all they can on the preventative health agenda, and making sure that the health service isn't just reactive but forward thinking and preventative as well. I'm sure that's the case right across Wales, whatever model of service provision is in place. So, a policy framework that supports that, encourages that and strengthens that I think would be really, really valuable.

Also, many Members emphasised the importance of swimming, and I think that's something that all of us would understand. It is a life skill, as was said, and, indeed, it can be a life-saving skill. Jayne Bryant mentioned Maindee library and also Maindee swimming pool. In terms of the swimming pool, I was once a lifeguard there, actually, many moons ago, and I well remember the local programme of primary school swimming lessons that so many children learnt to swim through—children from the more deprived families that possibly wouldn't have learned to swim otherwise. So, I really do think that these services and the primary school involvement are absolutely important in Wales, and deserve all the support we can give them.

On the power of libraries, knowledge is power, and that is on the keystone of what was the Pill library. I well remember it, having been brought up in Pill in Newport. I'm sorry to give so many mentions to my colleague Jayne Bryant, Dirprwy Lywydd, but there is a lot of overlap, as you would imagine, between both of us in terms of our upbringing and our current representation. But yes, libraries are a really powerful instrument for social advancement. Knowledge really is power, and they do so much more besides. I'm really pleased that this report I think has enabled us to give a little bit more limelight and focus to our libraries, because again, I know every Member here, and Members who aren't here at the moment, would understand the importance of their local libraries and want to support them and enhance the role that they have.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 6 is the debate on petition P-06-1345, 'Make conservation management plans compulsory for scheduled monuments at risk such as Ruperra Castle'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion—Jack Sargeant.

Diolch yn fawr, Deputy Presiding Officer.

On behalf of the Petitions Committee, thank you for the opportunity to present this important debate.

Presiding Officer, this is the second petition debate in a matter of weeks in relation to one of Cymru's historic monuments, and a further testament to the love people in Cymru have for our history and the buildings that were instrumental to it. Today’s debate relates to petition P-06-1345, 'Make conservation management plans compulsory for scheduled monuments at risk such as Ruperra Castle'.

Built in Caerphilly in 1626, Ruperra castle is significant in Welsh history, one of only a handful of pageant castles left in the United Kingdom. It was home to the Morgan family and played host to Charles I and the military in world war two. In 1941 it was gutted by fire and it is still a ruin at risk. It's a scheduled monument and grade II* listed building, yet it has deteriorated through private ownership. One of the towers has fallen and without considered intervention it will deteriorate further and soon be lost.

The petition received 10,580 signatures, 7,500 online and another 3,000 with pen and paper. The Ruperra Castle Preservation Trust have been active champions of the building, telling its story on their website, and campaigning to improve understanding and appreciation of the castle. Presiding Officer, I must say I've had the privilege of meeting supporters of the trust on a number of occasions, and I certainly would like to welcome them back to the Senedd today, as they are here in the public gallery for this debate.

The preservation trust says, and I quote:

'The Castle has a colourful history; it has played host to Charles 1st and the military in WWII, been a family home and hunting lodge, and provided employment for local families. The derelict gardens still retain echoes of the past including the remains of a magnificent MacKenzie and Moncur glass house, one of the largest and finest in Wales.

'The Castle was gutted by fire in 1941 and now stands as a romantic ruin and a building at risk of collapse. The unique surrounding listed buildings include Stables, Bothy and Generator House, which is home to a rare Greater Horseshoe bat maternity colony.'

Ruperra castle is a grade II* listed building. It is a scheduled ancient monument. Its grounds are listed on the Cadw register of parks and gardens of special historic interest in Wales. The castle has been in private ownership since 1998, with the current owner—[Interruption.] I certainly will.

As you know, the Enbarr Foundation made huge progress rescuing for community benefit the great grade II listed John Summers clock tower site at the old steelworks in Deeside, with its gardens included in Cadw's statutory register of historic parks and gardens in Wales. Will you join me in agreeing that the proposal in this petition could be extended to benefit sites such as that where, despite concerns being raised with the county council, the Welsh Government and Cadw, the landlord has been allowed to rip the site apart, replacing its nature with car parks?

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for his intervention? He's right; I know well the John Summers building, with the Enbarr Foundation. I've supported their work on many occasions. As I said in my opening, this is the second debate in a number of weeks about the buildings of Wales, like the John Summers clock tower. So, I do think it goes wider than just the Ruperra castle that we're talking about today, and I'm happy to support his calls there.

Returning to where I was, Deputy Presiding Officer, the current ownership at Ruperra castle in Caerphilly has been in place since 2014.  It is one of around 4,200 scheduled monuments and around 30,000 listed buildings in Cymru. Of these, only about 130 monuments are owned and looked after by Cadw, the Welsh Government’s historic environment division.

The petition refers to a conservation management plan. In Cadw’s own words, this is

'a document which explains why a historic monument or place is significant'

and how it is possible to

'sustain that significance in any new use, alteration, repair or management.'

A conservation management plan aims to identify the risks, explore the opportunities for improvement and highlight the significance of a monument. Conservation management plans are often a prerequisite for funding from bodies such as Cadw or the National Lottery Heritage Fund.

Whilst Cadw suggests that the owners of scheduled monuments may find it useful to draw up these plans, it is not a requirement. The petitioners argue, Deputy Presiding Officer, that the Welsh Government should make compulsory conservation management plans for scheduled monuments at risk, to avoid neglect and subsequent loss. The Minister, in her response to the petition in a letter considered by the committee, argued that this is

'disproportionate in scale and cost, and in many cases unachievable.'

I wonder if, perhaps, the Minister can explain in further detail in her response to the committee her thinking behind that response.

Dirprwy Lywydd, we owe a great debt of gratitude to the campaigners who have done such an amazing job with Ruperra castle. I extend that gratitude to those campaigners for monuments across Wales. But on this particular petition, I wonder if the Minister will agree to meet with campaigners and local representatives about how we can make sure that their work really does make a difference for the future.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I hope today’s debate gives us an opportunity to think about Ruperra castle once again, and other buildings—as Mark Isherwood has mentioned in his contribution earlier, like the John Summers clock tower—across Cymru. I’m sure we'll hear much more about its role in our collective history, and what it says about our nation. Diolch.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I start by thanking my colleague and committee Chair, Jack Sargeant, for opening this debate, and the petitioners for submitting this important petition?

Maintaining and preserving our heritage for future generations is an issue very close to my heart, and one I personally feel is not given sufficient attention. As you know, Dirprwy Lywydd, I've spoken numerous times in this Chamber, as have many others, about the need to protect our nation's heritage. It provides a tangible link to our nation's history and our past and is a vital component in passing on our culture. Conserving heritage means looking after it. This does not mean freezing it in time but does mean caring for it, using it, enjoying it and making it accessible to others in a way that does not damage or diminish what is important about it. If done right, with proper support and promotion, it is also financially beneficial to us as a nation, generating almost £1 billion annually for the Welsh economy.

This petition is specifically asking for the Welsh Government to legislate to make conservation management plans for scheduled monuments a compulsory undertaking by their owners. From speaking with Cadw, I am conscious of the difficulties of this and the cost implications that could arise, but nonetheless I support this and would urge the Welsh Government to take seriously this petition. We have had numerous debates in this Chamber recently regarding how our heritage is being lost, and therefore I feel that making conservation management plans compulsory in Wales is a sensible and effective way of ensuring that every effort is made to conserve those buildings and monuments. People often think that conservation management plans should deal only with the physical conservation of the heritage. And, of course, this is important, however conservation also involves managing and maintaining a site in the long term—in other words, looking after it to hand it on to future generations. It helps owners think about the long-term sustainability of the site and the social and economic benefits of it.

Whilst most owners of scheduled monuments and historic buildings do look after them well, there are, of course, a few who are not engaged with or care about the cultural or community significance of them that seem to resist the most. And I think this largely comes down to the fact that they do not fully appreciate their value nor the sense of identity that these monuments and buildings bring, and the benefits that can be had to an individual's sense of well-being. In most cases, they are seen as a financial drain, but having a conservation management plan will ultimately help towards applications for external funding, they will help generate positive relationships with local planning and statutory agencies, with partnership funding organisations and with the local community. Finally, management plans can help identify activities that might cause damage, help generate active governance procedures that can slow or avoid the effects of natural deterioration, and can help to identify all the different ways in which the community values the asset.

Can I echo the thanks to the petitioner for bringing this important issue again to the Senedd? As the Chair and Joel James have already mentioned, we spoke about the importance of preserving Sycharth, the former home of Owain Glyndŵr, only a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, Ruperra castle is falling into a similar state of ruin, as are so many other historical monuments in Wales, as Mark Isherwood highlighted, and every day without action is a day we risk this beautiful structure being lost forever. I still remember visiting Ruperra castle as a six or seven-year-old, and I can vividly recollect being amazed by its beauty. And even as a young boy, I couldn't realise why the castle was being left in such a state.

Cadw estimates that around 14 per cent of scheduled monuments in Wales are at risk. We must be proactive in protecting these parts of Welsh history. Many castles, forts, churches, chapels and, in some cases, whole villages, like Cwmorthin, have been left in ruin. Ruperra castle is one of the very few exceptions where we haven't just got the remnants of the castle, but the castle itself is still standing and in good condition. Not only is the castle a wonderful addition to the countryside around it, but, as the Chair mentioned, it's an invaluable educational tool that could be used, if made safe and stable again, to teach future generations of Welsh children about the history of Wales and the type of social structure we used to have in this country.

As the Chair mentioned, the castle itself poses a wealth of history—indeed, a political history—as the castle was passed through the bloodline of the famous Morgan family; a family of MPs, of lords, a Charge of the Light Brigade survivor, and the famous pirate Harri Morgan. It's such a pity that this fantastic castle is being neglected, while only 20 minutes up the road, Tredegar House, another Morgan property, is looked after and being enjoyed by thousands upon thousands every year.

As the Chair mentioned, Charles I visited the castle and spent four days there during the English civil war. Ironically, it also later hosted the Dutch ambassador to Oliver Cromwell, who described the area like this:

'one would never guessed how charming the view is towards the Severn across this very beautiful and fertile valley.'

The castle obviously made an impact on the Dutch ambassador.

In 1941 the castle was burnt down while under the care of the British army, and, ever since, it's been slowly declining. Its owner from 1998 until 2010 wanted to build flats in the castle, then he wanted permission to demolish the castle and then, finally, he gave up and sold it. It's clear that whether under military rule or private ownership, Ruperra castle is not being looked after properly. I would urge the Deputy Minister, I would urge the Welsh Government, to take action on this and so many other at-risk monuments in Wales, so we can protect these fascinating and important parts of our heritage for many, many generations to come. Diolch yn fawr.

Well, as we just heard from Rhys ab Owen, Ruperra castle is the second most famous castle in my constituency, but from Rhys's history lesson we can hear that, actually, it has a significant historical impact and has a great historical importance for a variety of reasons. Actually, the castle itself borders Newport, which John Griffiths and Jayne Bryant represent, and also Cardiff North, I think I'm right in saying, which Julie Morgan represents, and I know that the three in front of me—the four of us—care deeply about the future of Ruperra castle.

I would also pay tribute to the Ruperra Castle Preservation Trust. Very many of them are up in the gallery today, and they did ask whether we can wave, so I am going to wave, Dirprwy Lywydd, if you don't mind. They are doing sterling work in keeping that castle in the public imagination, but also being used as a destination to visit and look at, at least from afar. They hold historical walks; they hold annual open-doors events, which I've attended—one when it was particularly badly raining, and I declined, actually, to do the walk, but I was there in the barn. They also have educational events about how the castle can be preserved and maintained. That's pretty much what it has been about. The trust team have been here yesterday in one of the dining rooms in Tŷ Hywel to show Members a model of what the castle looked like before its disrepair. They've met with many Members across the Chamber, and I'm really grateful to Members for dropping in to see them. Today, they're here to hear this debate.

So, what are they doing, practically? Well, I've met with them and with the deputy leader of Caerphilly County Borough Council to talk about how we can build links with the community; that's one of the most important things that we can do. They've worked with Caerphilly County Borough Council, Natural Resources Wales and other local landowners to talk about how that castle can be preserved. They've petitioned and pressurised Mr Alkhafaji, who owns the castle at the moment, to get engaged, and we did have some success, didn't we, in 2017, I think it was, when Dafydd Elis-Thomas was in your position, Dirprwy Weinidog, and he met, then, with the owner. Unfortunately, though some hope was held, it didn't actually lead to anything, so we call upon the owner to come back to the table. Caerphilly council is calling on the owner to come back to the table and have this dialogue about the future of the castle.

That is why we come to this point, Deputy Minister; this is why I'm so grateful to Jack Sargeant, who has turned the Petitions Committee into a real campaigning force. This is why I've come to you, Deputy Minister, because we have nowhere else to turn at this point in time. We are working with everyone we can find, everyone we can—across parties, as well, because Delyth Jewell and Natasha Asghar have been involved—to try and find a way through this.

I speak for myself in this debate a well as my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths. We should cherish our ancient monuments, because they carry our local stories in their stones. I've had the privilege of seeing Ruperra castle through gaps in hedges and holes in fences, and even from those brief glimpses, I can see the showcase of Welsh history it provides. But Ruperra castle has been deteriorating slowly ever since a fire enveloped it in 1941. And as we've heard, in 1981 it lost a tower and the entire site is at risk of crumbling and falling into further disrepair. So much history would be lost if that happened.

And this risk isn't one that's only posed to this one monument. It's estimated, as we've heard, that 14 per cent of all our nationally important scheduled monuments are at risk, and that risk is too often a result of neglect. The last time that the condition of Ruperra castle was recorded was in June of this year, and Cadw found, at that time, that its current condition is unfavourable, that it has high vulnerability and that it has worsened severely. I know Cadw have been encouraging the owner to record the structure, to commission a structural survey, but I agree with the trust—and I would pay tribute to the fantastic campaigning work that they do—that the current system needs urgent reform if all Cadw can do is encourage owners to prevent a monument in their care from falling to dust.

There's a suggestion that conservation management plans should be made compulsory. I would support that. If the Government isn't minded to take that action, I'd welcome hearing more about what the Government feels should be done to prevent us from losing sites and buildings of such significance. Because buildings are more than bricks; they bring our history to life. I think about the living history we get from place like Llancaiach Fawr near where I live, which allows children and people of all ages to walk in the footsteps of people from our past, to learn and see our world through their eyes if only for a moment, and those glimpses, again, are powerful. And there are other reasons why Ruperra itself should be protected—for the woodlands, the grasslands, the native species that make their homes there, like the greater horseshoe bat. The residents of Ruperra today and from her past deserve that dignity and that protection.

Now, earlier in this Senedd term, Peredur and I accompanied members of the trust to see Ruperra in all its splendour, through those gaps in hedges, and even in its current state, it is so impressive. It holds those stories, and we should help those stories to be shared. Now, Ruperra's story today is a sad one, but its ending need not be tragic. We can help to turn it around, to write a new chapter in that building's majestic history, and that's something we can embark on together—cross-party and with all of the fantastic campaigners who work so tirelessly to help preserve that site. Diolch.

Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Deputy Presiding Officer. You've made my day. I'd like to say a big 'thank you' to the Petitions Committee for considering this petition and bringing it to the Chamber today for debate. And I'd like to say an even bigger 'thank you' to the Ruperra Castle Preservation Trust for starting the petition in the first place, and, indeed, everybody across the board who signed it.

This summer I was fortunate enough to spend an afternoon with Charlotte and Kay from the trust on a visit to Ruperra castle. To say it broke my heart to see the beautiful, historic and important monument in such a state of disrepair would be an understatement. It's clear that the castle has been and continues to be neglected and is facing the real risk of collapse, which I'm sure that many Members have already said and will continue to state as well. In fact, recent information from Cadw deemed the castle's condition to have worsened severely and that the current condition was, I quote, unfavourable, with high vulnerability and the monument risk level was, in fact, 'high immediate'. We do need to be doing all that we can to protect this castle, and I would've thought that making conservation management plans compulsory would be a good place to start, and will help save other important sites, not just Ruperra castle.

I was incredibly disappointed in the Minister's response to this petition, rejecting the trust's calls. In her letter, the Minister says there were no calls for compulsory conservation management plans during a consultation period on the Historic Environment (Wales) Act. Well, I'd argue that's simply not the case, with the Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings saying, and I quote for all of you here today:

'Ideally we would have hoped to see even greater change, including a duty of care placed upon the owners of designated structures.'

National Trust Wales also said, and I quote again:

'We are pleased to see the Bill’s provisions to lend greater protection to Listed Buildings, however, we would have wished to see far greater emphasis on Buildings at Risk.... We wish to see greater monitoring, greater intervention, greater reporting, and far more emphasis on reducing the buildings at risk in Wales.'

If the Deputy Minister is still of the mind that conservation management plans aren't necessary, and I hope she does rethink her stance, then perhaps she can look at Ruperra Castle Preservation Trust's alternative suggestion of issuing a policy statement to strengthen that policy for all scheduled monuments at risk on large, complex and sensitive sites such as Ruperra. Perhaps a visit to Ruperra castle, which I know a few Members have mentioned, would give the Deputy Minister a better understanding of the issue. I'm sure the trust would welcome the opportunity to show you around and talk to you about the site, Minister, and, having been myself, I would highly recommend you don't wear heels—wear some flat shoes when you do take the trip.

To inform the petitioner, who's here, and others who might be watching, there were many others who wished to speak today, but, unfortunately, the time allocation does not allow me to call them.

I call on the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Dawn Bowden.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for providing me with the opportunity to contribute and comment on this petition. Can I also thank the petitioners for highlighting the value of conservation management plans as an important tool to help managers care for historic assets? While I understand that this petition was inspired by Ruperra castle, which I will come on to deal with a little bit later, my comments are going to be much wider in relation to how we're working to protect historic assets and the environment.

But I have to say at the outset that to make conservation management plans compulsory for all monuments at risk would not be proportionate or effective. But, before I explain my reasoning, can I first reflect on the legislative protections that we already have in place? In Wales, thanks to the legislation passed by this Senedd in 2016, we will benefit from some of the strongest historic protection in the UK, and, as Hefin David said, last March, this Senedd did pass that Bill to consolidate all of our historic environment legislation into one Act, the Historic Environment (Wales) Act 2023. That Act is the first consolidated legislation in the Welsh Government's programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law. That historic legislation provides a fully bilingual, clear and accessible legal framework for designation, protection and management of historic assets in Wales that will protect our unique historic environment so that it can continue to contribute to the well-being of Wales and its people. The importance that this Senedd places on that objective has been made evidently clear by the passion and the interest of all those who've contributed to the debate today.

Now, our legislation reflects the variety of our historic environment. The two core forms of protection, listing and scheduling, recognise that an occupied historic building requires different protection and management to an archaeological site or historic ruin. But common to both is the requirement to provide strong legal protections against heritage crime—that's malicious, deliberate or reckless damage. Thanks to the provision of our 2016 legislation, such as interim protections and enforcement powers, we have made considerable progress in that regard. Key to this is partnership. Earlier this year, I signed a memorandum of understanding for Cadw to join the Alliance to Reduce Crime against Heritage partnership, along with the National Police Chiefs Council, the Crown Prosecution Service and Historic England.

However, the threats facing our heritage assets take many forms. Cadw undertakes heritage at risk surveys to investigate threats to our scheduled monuments and listed buildings and uses them to inform policy, prioritise guidance and focus its grant programmes. But, currently, many of the most concerning threats are actually linked to the effects of climate change—so, the increased rainfall, longer growing seasons and stormier conditions are all threats to our historic places. And Cadw’s surveys are used to identify historical assets that are in need of positive interventions. These can range from altering basic management to large-scale conservation interventions, or even, in severe cases, such as monuments affected by the extreme impacts of climate change, excavation and recording.

No, she's gone over the time. [Interruption.] No, Hefin. No intervention; she's gone over the time.

Okay, so to conclude—[Interruption.] I know. To conclude, Deputy Dirprwy Lywydd, I would like to thank the Ruperra Castle Conservation Trust for raising awareness of the value of conservation management plans, and to assure Jack Sargeant and Hefin David that I will be meeting with the trust—I think you’re aware of that now—and I do look forward to hearing more about Ruperra, because it is always a pleasure to meet people with a passion for our heritage, something that is clearly shared by so many of us in this Senedd today.

I call on Jack Sargeant to reply to the debate.

I’m grateful, Presiding Officer. I’ll try and round up quickly, if I can, but thank all Members who took part in today’s debate, and those who couldn’t as well, as the Presiding Officer referred to there. The Minister went on to explain why she didn’t fully agree that the operational tools, as I think you called them, of conservation management plans were not the only way to manage monuments and went on to set out the steps already taken to protect historic environments in Cymru.

My committee colleague Joel James always speaks with a fond interest when it comes to such matters; I know he’s mentioned a number of times the Cowbridge girls’ school in his area. And it always interests me, Presiding Officer, when committee member Rhys ab Owen speaks about such items of interest. He usually has a story where he’s visited the site. I remember having a conversation with him about Sycharth castle, which he visited with his father growing up—his personal memories there.

Delyth Jewell called for reform of the current system. I think Joel James and Natasha Asghar spoke about a good place to start being the management plans, a sensible and effective way of protecting heritage. Hefin David, the Member for Caerphilly, reflected on other Members' interest in the castle—John Griffiths, Julie Morgan and Jayne Bryant too—who border the constituency that they share. He also called on the owner to come back to the table, Presiding Officer. And the Minister shared some news to enlighten the Chamber with, that the owner is in discussions with Cadw about a master plan. Can I echo the calls from Hefin David, where perhaps the owner does meet with the Ruperra Castle Preservation Trust and others to inform such a master plan, going forward? I'm sure that would be welcome on all sides.

I can see the glare and the grinning smile of the Presiding Officer. Just to say, Presiding Officer, this is our second debate in a number of weeks on such matters, and I'm sure we will see more—as James Evans shouts in here—as we know these issues keep coming back about how we preserve our history, our fine history, in Cymru. So, on behalf of the committee, I thank everybody today, including the members of the public in the gallery. We wish them every success for the future, and I look forward to Hefin David joining them on their walk, with no excuses, come rain, sun or snow, next time. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the petition. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 today is the Welsh Conservatives' debate on homelessness. I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd—Dirprwy Lywydd. I refer Members to my declaration of interest form in terms of property ownership.

It is regrettable that we have to bring forward a motion today to highlight to all Senedd Members the absolute homelessness crisis facing us here in Wales. However, we simply cannot carry on. Let me give you my vision:

'A man’s right to work as he will, to spend what he earns, to own property, to have the state as servant and not as master—these are the British inheritance. They are the essence of a free country and on that freedom all our other freedoms depend.'

Margaret Thatcher, that was. So many in Wales, though, are now being deprived of the freedom to own property, to have a home.

Let's have a look at the evidence, shall we: 10,931 individuals living in temporary accommodation, the highest level since the Welsh Government began its own current monitoring programme. Cardiff Council said that, in August, 110 households moved into temporary accommodation. There are more moving into such accommodation than leaving. Gwynedd saw spending on this, temporary accommodation, jump from just below £500,000 in 2018 to £5.6 million in 2022, a more than 1,000 per cent rise over the past five years; Caerphilly from £173,000 in 2018-19 to £2.7 million in 2021-22; Bridgend from £80,000 in 2018-19 to over £3 million; and in my council, Conwy, 19 hotels are being used to house individuals and families, with more supply required on a weekly basis. Across Wales, there are 3,350 dependent children under the age of 16 in temporary accommodation, 30 per cent in hotels or B&Bs. This is not a home.

In fact, the use of the word 'temporary' is hardly an accurate description, when many are literally stuck in a hotel room, a B&B, even above pubs, for months. [Interruption.] A bit later I will, yes. In fact, 174 fellow human beings do not even have a roof over their head—rough-sleeping. The number of rough-sleepers in Wales has hit the highest number ever. Since July 2021, there have been massive increases in rough-sleeping: Pembrokeshire, 100 per cent; Cardiff, 120 per cent; and Gwynedd, 366 per cent. That is morally wrong, as is the fact that local authorities are not even required to monitor the deaths of homeless individuals. Only 31 per cent of local authorities record the deaths of homeless individuals. The evidence is categorical.

There has been a major failure by the Welsh Government to get to grips with homelessness in Wales. In comparison, the Welsh Conservatives are championing the freedom of residents who have a home, be it their own home or rental accommodation of all types, be it private rental or through an RSL. At the core of that mission is housing supply. The core of that supply is house building. The Senedd has had the pleasures of listening to me refer, time after time, to the house building and private let sector crisis that Welsh Labour and Plaid Cymru have caused in Wales. Only 50 per cent of the 12,000 new homes required annually are delivered, and the fact remains that even if 14,000 houses were built annually, it would take us 10 years—. Oh sorry, go on. I forgot.

I was waiting for you to let me in there, Janet. Do you see any synergy or culpability in terms of UK welfare benefit cuts—for instance, the single bedroom tax, the depletion in housing benefits—for being in any way responsible for some of that change?

Rhianon, this isn't about money now. This is about there are no homes. There are no houses. There is no accommodation for people other than temporary accommodation for those who, where we are now today, are sat homeless. And the fact remains that if 14,000 were built annually, it would take 10 years to bring our housing stock to the required level. If the homes do not exist, we cannot end homelessness.

To build more homes, we would streamline the planning process. Two to three years from application to laying the first brick is too long. We would address the gridlock caused by stringent NRW regulations on phosphates. We would address the huge shortage of planning officers—120 are needed now—by incentivising our officers to stay in the public sector rather than leaving to join the more lucrative private sector. We would encourage local authorities to allocate land for housing on the edge of crisis communities, such as Nefyn, Abersoch and Rhosneigr. We would take measures to encourage public bodies to free up land for housing development. And we would do much more.

The Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, rent controls, the socialist and nationalist agenda, is now causing a tsunami of landlords to leave the private rental sector and increasing homelessness levels once again. So, we would revisit the burdensome requirements of the Renting Homes (Wales) Act. We would scrap any proposals for rent controls and reform Rent Smart Wales. This would encourage more landlords to stay in the PRS and make homes available for those who currently have none, as would a rent guarantee in the form of a written document from the local authority, confirming that they will cover late or unpaid rent, and a cash equivalent of a month's rent to be set aside to cover any costs a landlord may incur trying to sustain the actual tenancy.

Last week, we saw the introduction of a White Paper, and that in itself is an admittance that the Welsh Labour legislation—the Housing (Wales) Act 2014—has not been successful. Street homelessness increased between the introduction of the HWA 2014 and the onset of the corona pandemic in 2020. Outcomes for single people, particularly those under 35, remain unsatisfactory despite further changes to the law since the HWA 2014. And your own evaluation in 2018 found that while local authorities would continue to react to homelessness and the problems it causes, the structural causes of homelessness remain unaddressed by your legislation. So, I welcome the opportunity for major legislative reform, and we want to work with you on that.

That should include establishing a joined-up information network. Like London, Wales should have the UK's most detailed and comprehensive source of information about rough-sleeping. A number of services are able to record information on the database, and that's it, co-operation right across the sector, to best enable rough-sleepers and the homeless to have a home.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister to formally move amendment 1.

Formally.

Formally. Mike Hedges.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Homelessness is an affront to any civilised society. I welcome the acceptance—we had it last week from the Minister—that homelessness is not just rough-sleeping. It's people sofa surfing, sleeping on floors, who have no fixed abode, or living in massively overcrowded accommodation. We need more social housing, including council housing. We need to build council housing back at the level we were building in the 1950s and 1960s. We also need to support the private rented sector, which is now the second largest housing sector.

A large number of those who are homeless need supported accommodation. An empty building, remote from friends and family, with no support, will lead to homelessness again for many. They need support. They don't just need a building.

We've had people inadequately housed who are living in temporary accommodation in Wales and, as the Senedd Member for Swansea East, most weeks I'm contacted by people who desperately need suitable, affordable rented accommodation. To summarise, housing is one of the key issues facing Wales. After food and water, it's the next need that people have.

Far too many houses are empty and not enough council housing is being built. Now the second most common housing tenure after owner-occupation is privately renting. I know from family that there is a shortage of privately rented accommodation at an affordable price or, in some cases, at any price at all. We need councils, housing associations and the private landlord properties to meet the demand for rented accommodation.

Empty houses are a wasted resource at a time of substantial housing demand. They can also cause nuisance and environmental problems. They also represent a potential housing resource that is currently massively underutilised. Bringing empty homes back into use can help to address housing issues by increasing the supply in areas where there are housing shortages. If all efforts to persuade owners to bring their properties back into to use fail, and such properties continue to prove to be a nuisance or be in poor condition, councils need to consider their enforcement powers. What we really need though are compulsory purchase powers for councils. When a house or flat has been empty for over five years, they should be able to compulsorily purchase those buildings, and then make the houses available in whatever form they want to. Once a compulsory purchase has taken place, the property could then be sold on to housing associations, owner-occupiers or private landlords, bringing the accommodation back into use. The Welsh Government introduced Houses into Homes loans that are available to renovate empty properties and make them fit to live in.

But between 1945 and 1959—six years of Labour, eight years of Conservative Government—120,000 council houses were built in Wales. This was a Conservative Party that was very different to the Conservative Party of today—a Conservative Party of Anthony Eden and Harold Macmillan, who really accepted the social democrat way forward. Building council houses was seen as a challenge by both political parties and, by the mid 1970s, there was an equilibrium between demand and supply for rented housing. The equilibrium was broken by the discounted sale of council housing and the near complete ending of council house building.

Homelessness is a big issue facing many people in Wales. While this issue may not always be visible to all of us, it's a harsh reality for far too many people living in Wales. Today, I want to shed a light on this pressing matter, to raise awareness and emphasise the importance of addressing homelessness. Many people don't have the privilege of a stable roof over their head. Homelessness affects people from all walks of life; it's not confined to any one age group, gender or background. It can happen to anyone.

Currently, as has been said, we have over 174 rough-sleepers in Wales, plus 10,931 people in temporary accommodation. That figure is rising, and something needs to be done to address it. One of the primary drivers of homelessness in Wales, as in many parts of the world, is a lack of affordable housing, and factors that are out of the individual's control. The demand for housing often outpaces the supply, leading to skyrocketing prices and rents. This can make it difficult for individuals and families with limited financial resources to secure stable housing. That's why it's imperative on all governments to deliver more house building, more social house building, to make sure that everybody has got a home over their head.

Another element is also addiction. Drug and alcohol problems have a massive effect on homelessness, so governments must do all they can to reduce addiction and also reduce people going back through the cycle time and time again. That will help us address homelessness.

As we discuss this, let us remember that homelessness is not a personal failure of somebody, but a systemic problem that we must all work together to solve. Fortunately, across Wales, there are dedicated organisations and individuals who go above and beyond and work tirelessly to provide support for those experiencing homelessness, such as Shelter Cymru, the Wallich, Crisis, and also Helping the Homeless, and other great charities and individuals that we have across Wales. The dedication of these individuals is truly commendable; they work on the front line, providing shelter, food, and essential services for those in need, and they also help provide advice to those people as well as to how they can get accommodation or how they can come off addiction.

There has been progress in addressing homelessness in Wales, such as Housing First initiatives and the increase in funding for homelessness prevention programmes. However, to address homelessness, the road ahead is a long one, and there's much more work that needs to be done. So, it's crucial for us here to hold the Government to account and to make sure that we do more to help people come out of homelessness and into that stable home that most people would like to have. So, we must do all we can to address homelessness. We cannot go on as we are. I would urge all Members across this Chamber to support the Welsh Conservative motion this evening. Diolch, Llywydd.

Well, we had this discussion last week, didn't we, and the Conservatives decided to use the discussion to display an embarrassing and fundamental misunderstanding of the housing crisis to ignore the suffering of the many suffering homeless across this country, and to act as mascots for private enterprise. Today, we have heard the call just to 'build new houses'. Simply building new houses won't answer the demand. In Ireland, in 2008, just before the crash, they built 94,000 new houses. The price of houses didn't fall; it just kept on increasing. So, building houses alone won't answer the problem. We need to build quality homes according to need, in the communities where people need them.

We've also heard today a rent guarantee for landlords as one of the big ideas. The UK is already spending £17.5 billion on housing benefit. That's largely transferring public funds to private bank accounts. What we're hearing now is the need to transfer even more funds from the public purse to private bank accounts. So, it's just not going to wash. Let's not forget—[Interruption.]

Yes, go ahead.

If Plaid Cymru take this issue so seriously, where are all your colleagues today?

I'll get on to that in a minute, so thanks for the intervention.

Let's not forget that the homelessness crisis in the UK has been largely driven by policies from successive Conservative Governments. It's the commodification of housing, Thatcherite privatisation, the bedroom tax, austerity—you name it, the Tories manufactured this suffering. [Interruption.] Yes, go ahead.

Do you not agree with me that it's unsustainable to have the amount of temporary accommodation spend in our local authorities, dragging them to their knees with the increase in temporary accommodation spend? It's unsustainable. You wouldn't run a business like that.

Yes, it's completely unsustainable. You're right, there's no disagreement. I don't think the Government or ourselves would disagree with that. So, that's why we need to tackle it, and that's why we had last week's homelessness plan, which we will get on to in a minute.

Conservative policies have made housing more expensive, housing services are more fragile, and people are poorer, more vulnerable and more susceptible to homelessness. I'd like to thank the Tories here for wasting parliamentary time today by offering no real solutions and going over a debate we've had last week. We had this debate last week and you're coming back and asking us to rescind what we've already passed last week. That's why I've actually suggested to my colleagues not to turn up here today, because we're having the exact same discussion as we had last week. We can't absolve the Welsh Labour—[Interruption.] Yes, she's interested in what I've got to say. [Interruption.] She'll be contributing later on, I've no doubt.

We can't absolve Welsh Labour of the responsibility here either. There have been failings, there's no denying this, whether we're talking about the slow pace of social housing construction, the opposition to embedding the right to adequate housing in Welsh law, or the failure to ban no-fault evictions. But there's no denying things are moving in the right direction, with the combined work of the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru, through our co-operation agreement, paving the way for some really progressive legislation that will go a long way in helping to end homelessness. This would not have been possible without Plaid Cymru and the essential contribution of those with lived experience of homelessness in the preparation of the White Paper.

There are areas for improvement, of course, and we'll work on these together, to ensure the legislation is fit for purpose. As we discussed last week, we need to ensure that upstreaming efforts to identify and support individuals and families at risk of homelessness prior to its occurrence are a core component of our strategy. This needs to happen early, with risks identified in the education system, for example, as is common practice in countries like Finland. The education system is a contact point for so many people, and the sector must be supported to play its part in cross-sector work to end homelessness. In this vein, there needs to be a 'no wrong door' approach to homelessness, ensuring that different sectors work in collaboration to identify the risks of homelessness, rather than ping-ponging homeless individuals, or those at risk of homelessness, between different services. In this regard, many in the sector argue that individuals need to be embedded across the public sector, whether in health and social care or the education system, to act as key points of contact on homelessness prevention.

I think it is an important debate here this evening, to talk about homelessness, because it's an issue that afflicts far too many modern developed societies, and Wales is no exception. In particular, as Janet Finch-Saunders articulated right at the start, the number of individuals rough-sleeping in Wales is a matter of absolute shame. It's at its highest level since 2020, and it's even more noticeable at this time when the cold is starting to bite, and it must be even more intolerable for those people who are rough-sleeping on our streets across Wales.

It is, of course, important to draw a distinction between those who are identified as homeless—around 11,000, as we've already heard, currently in Wales, many of whom are in temporary accommodation such as B&Bs—and those, as I've mentioned, who are currently rough-sleeping—around 200 that we are aware of. In particular, for those rough-sleeping, there is a huge amount more that we must do to tackle this issue. Specifically identifying those issues needs to take place, and I'm concerned to understand that there is a significant level of inconsistency in the way in which councils across Wales seem to gather data on those who are rough-sleeping. Indeed, local authorities have a duty of care in this area, and collecting this data will give important insights into where and how efforts at protecting and supporting street homeless people should be directed. So, I'd be keen to hear from the Minister in her response as to how she's directing those local authorities to gather that data most effectively.

On the broader issue of homelessness, as we've already heard, often people live in that temporary accommodation. We know that homelessness increases the worsening of health-related issues, certainly areas of mental health, but also with physical health deterioration. Of course, I know Mabon ap Gwynfor seems to think that building more houses isn't going to help solve housing problems, and perhaps that's part of the reason why, in Plaid Cymru constituencies such as Arfon, it's got some of the lowest house building numbers across Wales. But, in my mind, we certainly need to make sure enough houses are being built. It's fundamental to dealing with homelessness. I do sometimes get concerned that we hear all sorts of initiatives, programmes, projects, schemes that are either in train or bounced around some blue-sky-thinking room, when actually, if all that energy, time, effort and resource was put into ensuring enough houses were getting built, we'd actually see much more significant progress.

And there are also concerns. We know that the Labour Government here have pledged to build 20,000 new low-carbon social homes for rent, but we know that that is going to be very, very difficult to achieve. There are likely to be more problems at the end of this Senedd term than at the start of it.

Across the UK, housing represents one of our great domestic challenges. The idea that a home is a human right and that everybody is entitled to a roof over their head, like so many other areas of our economy, is now subordinated to the whims of market forces, privatisation and the pursuit of profit. Decades of underinvestment and an increasing imbalance between supply and demand has fuelled the housing crisis, which now affects millions of people from all socioeconomic backgrounds.

Council houses were sold off at below market rate under the right to buy. Many ended up in the private letting market, where profits were retained and no longer reinvested in more social housing. It represented a mass sell-off of state assets into the private sector. The Welsh Government rightly ended the right to buy and set a target of 20,000 new, quality, low-carbon social houses, but this has now been hindered by the Tory mishandling of the UK economy. Supplies and costs of materials were impacted by the Tory mishandling of Brexit, and the cost of each dwelling increased further following the disastrous Liz Truss budget, now 40 per cent more, meaning less money and fewer houses. Where house building does takes place, it's now largely left to private property developers whose prime motive is to make profit for their shareholders.

We must use our powers to protect those at the sharp end of this crisis. In the private rented sector we need an increase in legislative protection for tenants, including rent controls, the right to secure tenancies, a ban on the use of no-fault evictions, an end to no-pets clauses, and I would also like to see banks and building societies take historical rent payments into account when assessing mortgage applications. More funding needs to come from the UK Government Treasury into the provision of social housing, as it did under the Clement Attlee Government. The UK Government has been starving public service funding, wanting a smaller public state, which impacts on so many areas at the heart of our communities—building decent homes, planning, housing officers and homelessness prevention.

I recently met with a group of residential social landlords in north Wales. The complexity of support to prevent homelessness has increased. The cost of delivery has increased by 10.9 per cent, 75 per cent are running a deficit, and it’s hard to retain staff and maintain service delivery. There has been a 77 per cent increase in the number of people receiving domestic abuse support. The impact is on all ages, children and young people with nowhere to go. There is this presumption from the UK Government that young people can stay with parents, but this is not the case. Many residents under the service need help with managing money, accommodation, improving relationships, improving learning and education, access to employment and volunteering, access to mental health and well-being initiatives—all these have been impacted by cuts in public services funding.

I think this is a really important topic and I think it does deserve for us to debate it regularly. Over the course of the pandemic, action was taken by the Welsh Government—and I commend the Minister for all she was doing—to make sure homeless people were housed, and I give credit where credit's due. At the time, the Minister herself stressed the importance of this action, saying:

'Let me be clear: we cannot go back.'

But unfortunately we have gone back.

The Welsh Government's high-level action plan commits to ending homelessness by 2026, but this plan does not set out interim targets to measure progression, nor does it set legally binding goals. It's all well and good saying how committed we are to ending homelessness, but this does need decisive and increased action.

It's a sad fact that homelessness in Wales is on the rise, and we've had those stats here several times already this afternoon. A record number of people in Wales are in temporary accommodation—we know that—as well as a shocking 3,000 dependent children. It's clear that things aren't working here as they ought to be.

I'm also concerned by the fact that the housing support grant is facing a real-terms cut of 8 per cent by the Government. I fail to see how the Government can claim to be increasing its focus on homelessness if they are not providing the financial support it needs. The point of this grant is to help vulnerable people with issues that they face that could exacerbate the risk of homelessness, including violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

I also want to take this time, Llywydd, to raise the very pressing issue of rural homelessness. We know one significant cause of homelessness is clearly—as we've talked about here—the housing crisis. It's come about as a direct failure of Labour to build sufficient houses, of whatever description—certainly, affordable housing. For years, successive Labour Governments here have failed to build anywhere near the number of homes needed, resulting in excessive pressures on housing services. This has led to a drastic increase in housing costs, leading to a further driver to homelessness.

The cost of homelessness in rural counties has increased massively. By example, then, the cost of homelessness to Monmouthshire County Council has increased threefold from just under £1 million in 2021 to £3.1 million in 2022-23. This is a fact and it's creating huge pressures on councils all over, and I know they're absolutely struggling to meet demand. They want to meet demand but they can't—they haven't got the money to do it.

To make matters worse, many communities across the country are struggling to support increased development. We see that through local development plans and that's frustrating. And often that's due to a lack of infrastructure within those communities to support the additional housing. It's getting the chicken and egg in the right order. For example, in Monmouthshire the Welsh Government has not been supportive of the creation of new settlements, which is the only real way we can expand our housing supply if our current infrastructures are massively constrained, and there's no—I don't know what word I want for it, really—there's no capacity in them.

The Minister for Climate Change to contribute to the debate. Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm grateful for the opportunity to respond to the motion today. I will start, though, by observing that this debate has really highlighted once again just how very out of touch the Tories really are. Let me give you an actual glimpse of how the homelessness sector has responded to the publication of our White Paper. Stakeholders who work day in, day out in the homelessness sector in Wales, and those who stand beside clients every day working to tackle homelessness and its impact.

So, Llywydd, Crisis Cymru said that in delivering this White Paper, we are showing real vision by taking such bold action. Shelter Cymru said there was no better way to mark World Homelessness Day. Llamau strongly support the emphasis we've placed on young people and early intervention. And Katie Dalton, director of Cymorth Cymru, said it was fantastic to see how much our proposals have been shaped by experts, by experience. And I can tell you, from direct and personal experience, that people in Wales who have been homeless, who have slept on our streets for years, welcome these proposals and believe they will make a real difference. These proposals have, after all, been shaped by the lived experience of over 350 people. People who have actually experienced the trauma of homelessness, who know what it truly means to be homeless. We really should not be so quick to dismiss their experience and their lived expertise.

Llywydd, I said last week and I will say again today, the landscape in which homelessness services are working has irreversibly changed in recent years. The impact of the pandemic, the cost-of-living crisis, record levels of inflation and the war in Ukraine have all placed significant pressure on the Welsh housing system. This pressure has been exacerbated by a complete failure of the Conservative Government in Westminster to take any meaningful action. And there is plenty of action they could take on a welfare system in urgent need of reform, as Mabon ap Gwynfor mentioned, for example all the ongoing impact of the bedroom tax that they've conveniently forgotten about, or, Llywydd, on a stagnant local housing allowance. Or they could accept responsibility for the complete and utter mess the thankfully brief Truss premiership made of the economy, including soaring mortgage rates in particular.

Research from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that 90 per cent of low-income households on universal credit are regularly going without food, utilities and vital household goods. We are aware people are presenting to homelessness teams who have never presented before, and are only doing so because rent levels now make LHA meaningless. I have repeatedly called—[Interruption.]—on the UK Government to uplift the LHA rates and asked for a—

Is the Minister taking the intervention?

Yes, go on.

I'm grateful to you for taking the intervention. On two counts from Labour contributions today we've heard about the bedroom tax. It's my understanding that Labour at a UK level are keeping the bedroom tax; isn't it your understanding as well? So, if it's such a draconian measure—

No, it is not my understanding.

Well, that's what your leader in Westminster has said—that they're keeping it.

No, it is not my understanding, and the bedroom tax is still driving some of this issue. But the biggest issue of all is the local housing allowance. The Tory Government last uplifted the local housing allowance in April 2020. The Rent Officers Wales evidence to the Department for Work and Pensions shows that that has gone up by 16.56 per cent since then, which means that people simply cannot afford their rent if they're on any part of universal credit housing allowance. It's pretty straightforward: there is nowhere in Wales where the LHA covers the rent. You put it down to the thirtieth percentile from 50, and now it doesn't even cover it. How can it possibly be justified that that does not go up from April 2020? What's happening is that these mounting challenges have exposed a homelessness need we have never seen before—a need higher than anyone expected and a need that grows as the Tory Government-driven inflationary pressures continue to have a devastating impact on people across Wales.

On the contrary, I am proud that in Wales we are taking action to ensure we have a system that supports everyone and is fit for the future. I'm also proud that in Wales we continue to do what all civilised societies should do and ensure that no-one is forced to sleep rough. Our 'no-one left out' approach has been continuously in place since March 2020, and I introduced transitional legislation last year to add street homelessness as an eleventh category of priority need to ensure continuation of this approach. The same just cannot be said for the situation across the border. In England the 'everyone in' COVID response approach was rolled back as early as May 2020, when local authorities were told to exercise their own judgment.

So, contrary to the simplistic mantra from the benches opposite, we must remember that street homelessness is a complex issue. It isn't always easy to bring people in from the streets; it takes active and assertive outreach delivered by dedicated and trusted professionals. In Wales exceptional people in exceptional services do this work. And despite the challenges they face, these services continue to step up and assist people into accommodation. We shouldn't view rough-sleeping in isolation, but as one element of a wider homelessness issue. In Wales we have assisted nearly 40,000 people experiencing homelessness with temporary accommodation in the past three years. We could have ignored the need, we could have rolled back the response we provided in the pandemic and cast people back onto the streets, as they did in England. We could have shied away from this problem, but we haven't, we won't—we will not go back.

No going back means finding the way to sustain this change and to achieve our long-term goal of ending homelessness. The White Paper sets this out. It is a long-term vision and one that requires radical, systemic and cultural change. It will not be easy to achieve, but it is a change that must happen and we must begin the process now.

Mark Isherwood to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thanks to all contributors. Janet Finch-Saunders opened by telling us, rightly, that a homelessness crisis is facing us in Wales. It is morally wrong that nearly 11,000 individuals are in temporary accommodation—the highest level since records began—including over 3,350 children. The number of rough-sleepers has also reached the highest level since records began. As she pointed out, Wales is building less than half the number of new homes that it needs annually, and then she detailed some of the housing recovery programme the Welsh Conservatives would introduce.

Mike Hedges rightly said that homelessness is an affront to any civilised society and that we need more social housing, including council housing, and to support the private rented sector. He said there are far too many homes empty—absolutely right—and discussed the potential of compulsory purchase powers. He referred to the UK Government's public sector borrowing requirement, although, of course, it was UK Conservative Governments that allowed councils to retain funding for investment in new social housing, and Labour Welsh Government delayed introducing this, years behind England.

James Evans said that homelessness is not confined to any age group, gender or background and that it can happen to anyone, and the numbers are rising. He highlighted the lack of affordable housing and the need for all Governments to build more social housing. He also highlighted the impact of addiction on homelessness and emphasised that homelessness is not a personal failure, but a systemic issue we must work together to solve.

Mabon ap Gwynfor again displayed an embarrassing and fundamental misunderstanding of the housing crisis, but he was right to say that building houses alone won't answer the problem. Sam Rowlands pointed out the inconsistency in the way that councils collect the data on homelessness, and that building homes is fundamental to tackling homelessness, and highlighted the lack of short, medium and long-term planning. Carolyn Thomas rightly said that housing is one of our greatest domestic challenges, but she then illustrated why Labour's failure to embrace a whole-housing-sector solution has left us in the mess we are in. She referred to the cost of material supplies, avoiding mentioning the real internationally recognised causes of the global cost-of-living crisis. She also exhibited a basic failure to understand the fiscal straitjacket that UK Government have been operating within since 2010.

Peter Fox pointed out that things were not working here as they ought to be. He highlighted the housing support grant cuts—a grant supposed to help people with the problems they face, including domestic violence. He also highlighted the need for rural affordable housing, where the cost of homelessness to rural counties has risen massively. And he said that the Welsh Government's White Paper does not go far enough.

The Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, displayed, once again, just how out of touch this Labour Welsh Government really is—more dodging accountability and passing the buck and more tired old party soundbites. She was right to say, however, that street homelessness is a complex issue, but therefore wrong for her Government and predecessor Governments to have cut the housing support grant and housing supply.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. And therefore, we will defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will move directly to the first vote. The first vote is on item 7, the debate that's just taken place, the Welsh Conservatives debate on homelessness. I call for a vote on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 39 against. And therefore, the motion is not agreed.

I now call for a vote on amendment 1; amendment 1 was tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed.

And we will now move to the final vote, which is our vote on the motion as amended.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, 15 against. And therefore, the motion as amended is agreed.

And that concludes voting for this afternoon.

We will now move on to the short debate.

If Members could leave the Chamber quietly, as I ask Rhianon Passmore to introduce the short debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very deeply honoured to represent Islwyn. The constituency that I represent is a proud collection of working-class Gwent valleys towns and villages that were historically known for coal mining, with the very largest council estates in the region built for the steelworkers of Newport. Our industrial heritage is both long and strong; and I stand as the elected representative in our Welsh Parliament as a granddaughter of a miner whose families have worked the black gold of Wales for generations and contributed to our iconic miner halls and culture, and, sadly, with the emphysema, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and asthma in my family to show for it.

When the leader of the Labour Party, Keir Starmer, addressed the recent Labour Party conference in Liverpool, he confronted head-on the concern that for too long the voice of the working class has felt undervalued, dialects unheard, and 200 years on from the charter of our Chartists in representational politics, in 2023, the Westminster Cabinet of Etonian millionaires has not changed either. Keir Starmer stated

'many people here will have heard a nagging voice inside, saying no this isn’t for you. You don’t belong here. You can’t do that. Working class people certainly hear that voice.... In some ways—it’s the hardest class ceiling, of all.'

And he was spot on.

So, today, I bring this short debate to look through a Welsh perspective on how devolution impacts on the working class and how a socialist Welsh Labour Government has sought, with the levers it has, to aid people breaking through that class ceiling. Once I've finished my contribution, I'm going to cede a minute each to my following colleagues: Carolyn Thomas MS, Mike Hedges MS, Joyce Watson MS, and Hefin David MS.

As the Member of the Senedd, then, for Islwyn, one of my greatest pleasures and privileges is to regularly visit schools across the communities that comprise my constituency. And to break the class ceiling and to create an egalitarian Wales, we must first look to the youngest in our society. Cefn Fforest is a village that sits on the western fringes of the large Gwent town of Blackwood. It is one of the smallest communities in Wales, with a population of approximately 4,000 people, and I recently visited its primary school. It is a strongly working-class community, where affluence is conspicuous by its absence, but the sheer warmth and constructive co-operation of the community spirit is unrivalled. The primary school age children here have lived all their lives under successive Tory Prime Ministers: David Cameron, privately educated at Eton and Oxford University; Theresa May, privately educated and at Oxford University; Boris Johnson, privately educated in Eton and then Oxford; Liz Truss, Oxford; Rishi Sunak, a private education at Winchester College and Oxford University; and on and on. Our present multimillionaire Prime Minster famously once stated in a BBC TV documentary that, 'I have friends who are, you know, working class' and then he stopped, and he actually said, 'er, perhaps not working class.' He's famously known for never having used a cashpoint machine, so perhaps that's what he means.

Let none of us, then—let none of us—be under any illusions that all of the children of Wales have an equal start or have the same chances in life. Very few of my young people are dropped off to school in a Rolls-Royce, wear £800 school uniforms or take global school trips or play silver flutes. What they do have, though, is communities, and teachers who care and a Government that wants them to realise their potential. The staff, children and community of Cefn Fforest Primary School can be so very rightly proud of the glowing Estyn report that they received. The inspectors stated the school is a school where:

I would like to thank Rhianon Passmore for a minute of her time. To create a fairer, more equal Wales, we need to have more equal representation of people in all levels of government making decisions, including the introduction of gender quotas and people from a variety of socioeconomic backgrounds and experiences. To do this, we need to ensure those willing to stand are financially able to do so, addressing caring responsibilities, ensure equal access to information, meetings and training. We need representatives who want to make a difference to improve the lives of others, improve our environment, bringing their own personal experiences, not just because they have personal ambition and funding. I am glad that, in Wales, we continue with hybrid meetings, e-petitions, Jack, and are looking at introducing gender quotas.

Can I thank Rhianon Passmore for giving me a minute in this debate? I want to make two very quick points. When I was in school, I could access the local library and not be disadvantaged compared to my more affluent classmates. I had the same books as them, even if it meant a mile walk. Today, with online access, those children without online access at home are seriously disadvantaged, with libraries capping the number of hours pupils can use library computers, making less-affluent pupils less able to complete school work, thus less able to succeed in school.

In the 1960s and 1970s, approximately a third of people lived in council houses. As far as I can find, we have never had a Prime Minister or a Welsh First Minister from a council house background. When we talk about diversity—carrying on from Carolyn Thomas—we need to talk about class as well. There are those of us who come from a working-class background who often feel we're massively disadvantaged. Finally, no child should be disadvantaged by where their family lives or their family's income.

I'd like to thank you, Rhianon, for bringing forward this interesting debate and allowing me a minute in it. You've talked about the class ceiling, but there's also the class feeling. The latest British social attitudes survey records that more people feel working-class now than they did 40 years ago—46 per cent now, and it was 32 per cent in 1983. And we could discuss the cultural and economic context late into the night, I'm sure, but it is an interesting shift.

In terms of the ceiling, the survey also reports that the large majority of British people, 77 per cent, say class significantly affects their opportunities in this country, up from 66 per cent in 1985. And younger people, far more than older people, believe that it's very difficult to move classes. In other words, young people are more stuck and less optimistic than their parents, and the system is rigged. Surely, that's the definition of political failure, the epitaph for 13 years of Tory rule. Going forward, Labour Governments here and at Westminster must deliver equality of life chances. By the time they start school, for example, children eligible for free school meals are already five months behind their peers. So, early years are crucial. Only 6 per cent of young people are educated privately, yet they make up 55 per cent of students at the Russell Group universities, who go on to earn more in the workplace. So, expanding educational opportunity is crucial.

And work is crucial—strengthening workers' rights, making work pay, no more zero-hour contracts, no more fire and rehire, and a living wage. Class is about where we come from, but it should never decide where or how far we go.

I owe Glyn-Gaer Primary School and Heolddu Comprehensive School, Bargoed for every chance I've had, and the fact that I can stand up here and do this today is because of that education I had in those communities. And I was terrified before that, before I had that opportunity. But, one thing we wouldn't have had in Heolddu in those days was encouragement to go to Oxford. I wouldn't even have considered it when I was in school. I had decent—good—A-level results, but I would not have considered it. I think the Welsh Government's Seren programme has made a difference there—I think it makes a huge difference—but in my report to the Welsh Government, what I've said also is we need to look at vocational qualifications for those people who may be considered for A-levels, and put them on a pathway that could lead them into vocational qualifications through to degree level. I think we've got a huge opportunity there, and, therefore, levelling out that landscape across vocational and academic qualifications would further add to that breaking of the class ceiling. And what an excellent speech, Rhianon.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate—Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank the Member for Islwyn, Rhianon Passmore, for raising this important matter and welcome the debate on breaking the class ceiling and building a fairer and egalitarian Wales for all, but especially today, as we focus on her constituency, the great constituency of Islwyn, which she serves with such diligence, competence and commitment.

We've long recognised that, alongside other factors, social and economic circumstances are significant contributions to inequality, and we are committed to creating that fairer and more prosperous Wales where everyone has the opportunity to reach their potential. This is all the more important in the context of the cost-of-living crisis and the 13 years of austerity, which have blighted the lives of so many and restricted our opportunities to address this. But I think your reference to your constituency and the young people, teachers, carers, parents at Cefn Fforest Primary School puts into perspective the will and determination of our communities and the communities that you represent, in that we don't often hear about those young people who we would hope and welcome seeing making progress in life, removing the barriers that prevent them from achieving what we know they can achieve.

I just want to quickly mention some of the ways in which we're helping to build that more egalitarian Wales. What are our levers and powers and responsibilities? Well, one of them, very importantly, and we haven't mentioned it much recently in the Senedd, is the socioeconomic duty. Now, we did bring that into force, if you recall. It's in the Equality Act 2010. Certainly, it's not been brought into force in England. It came into force on 31 March 2021, and it does require public bodies, including Welsh Ministers, to give due regard to the need to reduce inequalities experienced as a result of socioeconomic disadvantage when taking strategic decisions. This is a key tool and lever in terms of making and building a fairer, more egalitarian Wales. So, we have a report on implementing the socioeconomic duty. It can sound a bit like jargon, but it is basically about these key factors that you've raised today, and recognising those key factors that, actually, can hold people back, like the classism that still pervades, and in fact is embedded, I'm afraid, in the representation, as you've described, of Government at Westminster, not just in terms of privilege but just life experience.

I think, also, we have got an opportunity with our integrated impact assessment tool. We're enhancing that over the coming months to improve and strengthen the components specifically designed to enhance our thinking around socioeconomic impacts—vital if we are to consider how effective we are as a Government in terms of policy and interventions that would have a positive impact on the people of Wales. And we have to move away from all those siloed interventions to a more joined-up approach. So, we are understanding much more about how protected characteristics can intersect with one another and how they come together in an individual, and looking at multiple forms of discrimination—racism, sexism, homophobia and classism. This very much comments on some of the points that Carolyn and Joyce have made. They all combine, overlap, intersect, and they will be experienced by our constituents in every constituency. But I think what we are today debating is how we can particularly look at that aspect of classism and socioeconomic disadvantage, because we know that deprivation does intersect with protected characteristics, and certain people, communities and geographies experience worse outcomes as a consequence of the interplay of those characteristics.

Thank you all for a very interesting debate, and that brings today's proceedings to a close.