Plenary

We move now to questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, and the first question is from Huw Irranca-Davies.

I can emphasise the importance of strong inter-governmental relations and that open engagement between the Governments at every opportunity is taken. The instability of the UK Government and frequent UK ministerial changes have clearly made it difficult to form long-lasting, productive links, which are vital in underpinning sound inter-governmental relations.

Counsel General, Luke Fletcher MS and I have just returned from attending the second meeting of the UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly in London. It was good to attend that; Alun Davies and colleagues—Sam—have attended before, and it's an emerging feast of a body, and it's growing more muscular as well. But one of the themes within that is the need for this—regardless of the systems in place—regular engagement, routine engagement, between Ministers at a UK level and at an EU level, particularly in this post-Brexit scenario. We've got the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill—we don't know what's happening quite with that at the moment. We've got the EU retained law—we're not quite sure what's happening with that. We've got the Bill of Rights Bill and the impact on citizens' rights, let alone the wider panoply of legislation coming down the line. In a different context, the First Minister once used that phrase, 'the regular, reliable rhythm of meetings', how important that is. So, does he share my hopes that, with the new Government and the new Prime Minister, but all those new Ministers, that this will now become the norm that there are regular, routine, reliable meetings between Ministers, so that we can deal with some of these pressing issues?

Thank you for that supplementary question, and I do totally agree: there is a need for regular engagement, for consistent engagement, and properly planned engagement as well, and that engagement should be taking place in respect of all aspects of the UK Government's legislative programme that engages with us, that triggers our particular obligations, but also all the areas of interdependency that arise as well.

I think it was really most disappointing that there was a long delay—. Well, in fact, it's taken so long to get now to a situation where the current Prime Minister is now talking to the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales, and I give credit to the new Prime Minister that that was one of the first things that he did do, and it's a very important statement. There was a comment that was made that the previous Prime Minister was very busy, and really that is not a satisfactory answer when that situation arises, because you can never be too busy to say that you are concerned about the importance of your relationship with the four nations of the UK.

On a personal basis, I've already had introductory meetings with the Attorney General Victoria Prentis. I did meet with her predecessor; there was a very quick change then. I've met also with Lord Bellamy, who will be visiting the Senedd, and there'll be an opportunity for meetings with myself and with the Minister for Social Justice.

But I do agree. We need early and open engagement between the Governments on all policy areas. We need a period of stability and co-operation to support closer working relationships between the Governments in all our mutual interests.

Question 2 [OQ58643] is withdrawn. Question 3—Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you for the question. We are monitoring the Bill’s progress through Parliament whilst continuing our engagement with the UK Government on the proposed timeline for its coming into force and the implementation of provisions and what this will entail in terms of implications for Wales.

Thank you for the answer, Counsel General. I know you agree that this bonfire of the EU retained law started by Rees-Mogg is an extremely dangerous one. Not only does it put at risk important protections, including workers' rights and climate measures, it's also a blatant attempt to undermine devolution, Welsh Government and this Senedd. Given that this Bill will have serious implications for the devolved nations, I find it totally unacceptable that they have not been properly consulted. Counsel General, what representations have you made to the UK Government about this matter, and what discussions have you had with other law officers about protecting the competencies—sorry, I can't say it very well—of this Senedd? Thank you.

Thank you. The Bill is obviously something that is very significant; it transfers enormous powers to UK Government Ministers, who would have the option of not instating, or not retaining, certain legislation in UK Government, almost at their discretion. The example that I know has been publicised very well is the one, for example, of statutory holiday pay, which derives from the EU retained law. Were that not to be retained and reinstated into UK law, it would at a stroke actually be eliminated, so we would lose that, and there are many other examples where individual rights that individuals have could disappear at a stroke with virtually no scrutiny from UK Government. Our concern as a Welsh Government is, of course, that the Bill contains issues in respect of concurrent powers for UK Government Ministers in the retained EU law Bill that can be exercised in devolved areas. It has a sunsetting clause that was set for 31 December 2023. This relates to something like 2,400 pieces of legislation. I think I've already commented, as, indeed, have other nations of the UK commented, that, basically, this would almost completely overwhelm not only the UK Government's legislative programme, but ours as well, if we were to try and address this. So, we are looking at very careful options on that.

I suppose there is some hope in terms of some comments that maybe there will be a review of it. My view is that this piece of legislation is wholly unnecessary. It doesn't actually achieve anything or do anything of any significance when you consider all the particular challenges that exist. I'm very moved by the comment from the former environment Secretary Theresa Villiers. She was a Brexiteer, so she has a vested interest in Brexit and these issues, but she said that the proposals would take up vast amounts of civil service time and would involve undoing legislation that, in many cases, was broadly popular and good for the country. Others have expressed a view that this Bill is potentially an ideological millstone. So, we're monitoring it very, very closely. I had two meetings with the previous Minister, Rees-Mogg. That, of course, has changed, but there will be opportunities for further discussions, and this is very much on the Welsh Government's and on my radar.

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, first of all. Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Llywydd. Responding to your statement here in May on justice in Wales, I stated,

'given that senior police officers told me during my visit to the north-west regional organised crime unit that: all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission'

regarding this

'was largely ignored in the commission's report',

I asked,

'why do you think that the Thomas commission on justice report only includes a single reference to any cross-border criminality in the context of county lines, and that the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, but no reference to partners across the border, with whom most of the work is actually being done?'

You accused me of 'a head-in-the-sand response', when, instead, ignoring these key issues would represent a dangerous head-buried-in-sand approach—

Mark Isherwood, I am sorry to cut across, but we were all there when you asked these questions and had this response. If you can ask your question of today, please—and you're out of time now, but I'll allow you to ask it.

What, if any, action have you therefore since taken to investigate the serious omissions I identified and gather the necessary missing evidence?

My role isn't to answer for the Thomas commission, or to take up specific issues that are in or not within the Thomas commission. What my role has been—Welsh Government's role—is to consider the totality of the recommendations made by the Thomas commission, to evaluate them and see how those might be pursued.

The issue of the devolution of policing is obviously one that has been taken up, and it is one that's resulted in quite a range of meetings between myself, the Minister for Social Justice, as well, at the police partnership board that has been set up, and a very close collaboration as well with the police and crime commissioners. In doing so, what we seek to do is to have a proper partnership in terms of those areas that are devolved that clearly do relate to policing, which is why we, obviously, want the devolution of policing, the partnership between the four police areas, but, of course, any other areas that overlap in terms of engagement there are equally valid. Now, those organisational matters are obviously matters for the chief constable, but they do get discussed, so I don't think there are grounds there for criticism, because what we are looking at is how the partnership between our responsibilities and policing can actually work collaboratively together. I don't think the points you make on whether they're sustainable or not sustainable really have any real bearing on the importance of actually having that partnership, having that engagement or actually undermining the view that we've taken, but also that the police and crime commissioners hold—all four of them, who have been democratically elected—that there is merit in the development of the devolution of policing.

Without this gaping hole being filled, there's clearly no real basis to go forward on the basis of an only partial report.

But responding to you in May, I detailed evidence showing that the UK Government is actually more aligned with the Welsh Government approach to justice than otherwise and has stated repeatedly that it favours policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation, quoting, for example, the UK Ministry of Justice's 'Prisons Strategy White Paper' to rehabilitate offenders and cut crime; the female offender strategy to divert vulnerable female offenders away from short prison sentences; and the UK Government's turnaround scheme to catch and prevent youth offending earlier than ever to help stop these children and young people from moving on to further, more serious offending.

I also quoted, as you did, the former UK justice Minister, Lord Wolfson, at the October 2021 Legal Wales conference, where he said that being part of an England and Wales justice system made Wales a more attractive place to do business and that,

'We are continuing to work closely with the Welsh Government to deliver justice in Wales, including the joint work on supporting women and young people, and taking forward some of the recommendations of the Thomas Commission'.

What progress has, therefore, been achieved with this in the 13 months since—I appreciate you might be tempted to respond by just commenting on the last couple of months—as we go forward?

Thanks for the question. The discussions that take place and the work that goes on isn’t something that just happened in the last couple of months—it is work of a long, continuous process. One of the reasons it’s part of that long process is because there is a real dysfunction in the England and Wales jurisdiction. I have to say that my view is that the England and Wales jurisdiction is dysfunctional and is not working. That is one of the reasons why we’ve published a paper, 'Delivering Justice for Wales', in order to put those across, not in terms of the issue of who controls justice or whatever, but, basically, how can it be delivered better? And you’d be perfectly valid in asking for details as to how we think that can be delivered better.

Of the work that is going on, much of it is actually borne by my colleague the Minister for Social Justice in terms of women’s issues; in terms of a women’s blueprint; in terms of the youth justice work that is going on; in terms of the issues over the women’s residence and the prison issues that arise. Those are things that have been going on for many, many months and have also been ones that have engaged partnership between the Ministry of Justice and the Welsh Government and between all the other agencies and bodies that have a direct interest within that. And I think those have been very effective and very successful, but they are only part of the picture.

There was a very interesting publication that’s just come from Cardiff University on criminal justice—The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge—which really begins to highlight the dysfunction in our justice system: the fact that we have no proper alignment between all the devolved functions and a very centralised Ministry of Justice, where Wales only plays a very peripheral part.

You raised issues also with regard to policing. I mean, let’s be honest about it in terms of the issues around crime and police operations: when the Conservative Government came into power in 2010, you cut 22,000 police officers and you’re now talking about appointing 15,000, to some extent rectifying that disastrous damage that was actually done to policing and community safety.

So, we work as a partnership; we work across board; we seek whatever opportunities there are for joint working and there are a number of blueprints and projects that are jointly under way. But they are really on the surface of what is happening. There is a need for a far deeper consideration of justice and I do not accept your view, and I don’t think any logical, evidential analysis of the England and Wales jurisdiction can say that it is serving Wales well. That was a view that was found by the Thomas commission as well, but I think it’s been justified in significant other evidence since then.

Without the evidence I referred to, we can't tell whether it is working any better or any worse than it would if devolved. The suggestions might be to the contrary in the absence of such evidence. And of course, those police officers, the cuts were reversed, and we're now well on the road to deliver on 20,000 new police officers within the three-year target.

But responding to you in May, I noted, for example, that Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care, and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world, and asked,

'Is it therefore not the case that such a difference in delivery within what is a shared criminal justice system shows why the calls for devolution of criminal justice should not be answered?'

I also noted that, in consequence of the UK Government's female offenders strategy, the Minister for Social Justice here had written to Members, stating that she'd been working closely with the UK Ministry of Justice, and announcing that one of these centres would be near, and asked,

'How will this help vulnerable women offenders in north, mid and west Wales to access the services they need closer to home?'

Rather than answer this, you instead stated that it was thanks to the Minister for Social Justice that

'we actually have the women's residential centre...coming to fruition.'

Plans for this centre were subsequently turned down by Swansea Council. So, what is the current state of play, where women prisoners from England can now be released from Welsh prisons for rehabilitation in centres in England, but women prisoners in Wales cannot be released to equivalent centres in Wales?

Well, I think you've just put a very good case for the devolution of justice, because that's exactly one of the reasons why we have been doing that, why we work in partnership where we can, but you need a proper, consistent and organised devolution of responsibilities to enable us to get rid of that jagged edge within the criminal justice system. You talk about the numbers of people that are in care, and you talk about the numbers in prison, and so on. What is very clear from the data is that Wales has one of the highest numbers of women that are actually in prison. We also have almost the highest level of, I think, people from ethnic backgrounds actually in prison—some of the highest figures in Europe. They are all part of the non-devolved justice system, and they're all part of the evidential base as to why the devolution of justice actually is necessary.

You referred again to the policing figure, et cetera. Well, you've been in power since 2010; it's taken you 12 years to begin to repair the damage that has been done in terms of the massive cuts to policing that actually occurred.

With regard to the turning down of the planning application in respect of the women's centre in Swansea, of course, that is a matter for the Ministry of Justice to now consider how it intends to respond to that. But that, again, is a responsibility of the Ministry of Justice.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson now, Llyr Gruffydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'm glad, Counsel General, that you've referred to the recent publication, The Welsh Criminal Justice System: On the Jagged Edge, by Dr Rob Jones and Professor Richard Wyn Jones, and I would heartily recommend it as a good read to the Conservative spokesperson—it might even help open his eyes somewhat to the reality of the situation. Because you're absolutely right in saying that—. It really outlines how the Welsh criminal justice system is unique, and, while our nation has its own devolved Government and Parliament, of course, there is no Welsh equivalent of the Scottish or Northern Irish justice systems. Rather, the writ of England and Wales criminal justice institutions continues to run. Yet the extensive responsibilities of Wales's devolved institutions ensure that they necessarily play a significant role in criminal justice, and, as a result, the Welsh criminal justice system operates across this jagged edge of devolved and reserved powers of responsibilities.

So, what discussions, then, have you had to ensure that we create a Welsh justice system, to improve what are some of the worst criminal justice outcomes in the whole of western Europe? And also, will you discuss with your Labour colleagues in London to ensure that any potential future UK Labour Government will actually devolve justice, the police and prisons to Wales?

Thank you for the question and thank you for the comments. I certainly agree with you that the content of the publication from Cardiff University contains some really significant information within it. And of course, it raises that point: one of our main concerns—I meant to mention this with the last question—is the disaggregation of data. We do need that evidence base, we do need that data. Unless we actually have that data disaggregated so we know how it applies to Wales, it becomes very difficult to actually determine policy, to evaluate precisely what is happening, why it is happening, and how we actually change it. That is why we published in May 'Delivering Justice for Wales', and we've referred to that, and it's been mentioned consistently.

I've been raising these issues now in all the discussions that I've had with counterparts at UK Government level, and we've done it in a number of ways. Firstly, we will continue working, we will continue co-operating in all areas where we can work collectively to improve the justice system. There are a number of projects like that that are under way. Secondly, we'll identify additional projects that we can work with. There are some very interesting ones that are under way in terms of the establishment of a domestic abuse law centre up in north Wales; we're awaiting a decision on funding and we're hopeful that will happen. We might look at that in terms of a model as part of a broader policy in respect of developing law centres and access to justice.

But also, what we'll also do is actually start preparing for the delivery of justice, particularly in those areas where the connectivity between devolved responsibilities is so blatant. I would say there is no rational argument for not devolving justice in the area of probation and in the area of youth justice. Even if we were to start there. And, of course, the debate over justice policy and these issues is partly about getting it out of a mindset that this is somehow about who controls something, as opposed to how you can actually deliver justice better. And my view, and the reason I work so closely with the Minister for Social Justice, and vice versa, on these, is that a key part of the justice system is social justice, and the combining of those two makes it absolutely essential that, certainly in those areas, there is devolution of justice, and in the longer term, there's an end to the dysfunction of the very centralised judicial system for England and Wales, which also has significant adverse impacts in the way it is delivered in England as well.

Thank you for that. You've listed engagement with the UK Government. I'm still waiting for something in relation to your own UK Labour Party; maybe you could expand a little bit in a moment.

I wanted to ask you about something else as well, because the UK Government has announced that its Bill of Rights Bill is to return to the Westminster Parliament in the coming weeks. And we know that that will dismantle the Human Rights Act 1998 that made human rights part of domestic law available to everyone in the UK. So, would the Counsel General agree that human rights are actually one of the cornerstones of devolution, and that the Welsh Government has to act to protect human rights in Wales by ensuring, for example, that we get a human rights Bill for Wales?

Well, firstly, you are absolutely right in terms of the bill of rights, and, of course, 10 December is Human Rights Day, and I hope there will be a substantial debate in this Chamber. At one stage, it looked as though there might be a debate on Human Rights Day that didn't need to have reference to the bill of rights. We were told it was shelved. Unfortunately, one of the main instigators of it has returned, and it appears it is back on the agenda again.

It is within the portfolio of Lord Bellamy, who I will be meeting with in Cardiff in December. So, there'll be an opportunity to discuss there. What we don't know is precisely what the format of this Bill might be, whether it's going to be a complete return of the existing Bill. Now, that seems to me to be something that's very difficult, since once it was shelved, there were so many UK Government Ministers and Members of Parliament who basically were saying, 'Well, it's been shelved, the thing is an absolute mess, so it can't go on as it is; that's why we've shelved it.' Well, it's now coming back and they've obviously got to do something to resolve the fact that it is, in its current form, an absolute mess.

But it is something that is essentially an undermining of human rights. It actually takes away the rights from individuals. So much for the Brexit argument of taking back control; it actually disempowers individual citizens within the UK.

In terms of a Welsh Bill, and what we can do within Wales, that is something that we're looking at very, very closely. What the options might be as to how we might further strengthen the commitment to human rights that we have, either within our legislation, within our policy, and whether that means by means of a legislative format or whatever, I don't know. But it is a matter that's being discussed at the human rights advisory group that has been set up, in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice, which I chaired the other day. So, this is very much on the radar and I hope this debate continues and we keep monitoring what is happening.

Thank you for the question. I wrote to the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice about the considerable demand for a Hillsborough law in August of this year, and have previously raised the matter in meetings and correspondence with UK Government Ministers.

I thank the Counsel General for that answer. And can I thank him for his continued work with me about promoting the need for a Hillsborough law? Counsel General, you will be aware that the next Prime Minister, Sir Keir Starmer, used the opening of his conference speech in Liverpool to commit his future Labour Government to implementing a Hillsborough law. This is not only a bold move, but it is the right move. It is too hard for people in this country without significant means to access the justice they deserve. Will you commit this Welsh Labour Government to supporting Sir Keir in his plans for a Hillsborough law, and his calls also for a general election to make that happen?

Thank you for the supplementary question. And I congratulate you for the way in which you have continued to pursue this and to pursue some of the other significant miscarriage of justice issues. I think it's very important that we debate them and we consider them on this floor. I think, first of all, the thing to say is that I think there have been a number of missed opportunities to actually discuss on an inter-ministerial level, inter-governmental level, the issue of Hillsborough and other similar issues. The inter-ministerial group on justice has not yet been established, but I am hopeful that it will be very, very soon. In terms of Welsh Government, I can confirm, and say again for the record, that we support the calls for the introduction of a Hillsborough law, which would not only place a duty of candour on public servants, but also put bereaved families on a more equal footing to public bodies by ensuring publicly funded legal representation is available. I'm disappointed also that the Public Advocate (No. 2) Bill is unlikely to progress. So, we are maintaining pressure on the UK Government over this issue and about some of the other miscarriages of justice that have occurred and that you have raised in the past: the Post Office Horizon scandal and, indeed, the issue of a pardon for wrongly convicted miners during the 1984-85 strike.

But, on the summary points you raise, I completely agree with you about the statement from Keir Starmer. I was pleased to see the announcement at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool that a future UK Labour Government, which hopefully won't be too far away, will introduce a Hillsborough law. I also agree with the Member that we should have a UK general election as soon as possible so the public have an opportunity to elect that Labour Government.

Thank you for the question. The Bill and its impacts in Wales are being urgently assessed by my officials. I am extremely concerned, again, by the lack of engagement on this Bill before introduction, and the limited information available on its content.

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for that response. It is, of course, a forced labour Bill. It takes away freedoms and it takes away rights from people, and acts in a way that is incompatible, I would argue, with our expectations and our values in a free and open and democratic society. It is also at odds with the values that we, on this side of the Chamber, have certainly held dear throughout the period of devolved Government. The Welsh Government's social partnership Bill, which is being delivered by our colleague the Deputy Minister is something that paints a very different vision of the future for industrial relations, and for enhancing people's rights and underpinning people's freedoms. But it is, of course, a matter of great concern that the Welsh Government has again been unsighted on another piece of UK legislation. It may be useful, Counsel General, if you could publish a list of all the engagements between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government, at ministerial and official level, for us to understand exactly what engagement has taken place in the development of this piece of pernicious legislation.

Thank you for the supplementary question. Of course, we will be monitoring very carefully what happens. I understand the Second Reading has been delayed. I had been reading through the Bill. I actually have a copy of it here. It is quite difficult to see how exactly it might work. Maybe that's why it is slowing down in the process. Another ill-thought-out, ideologically driven piece of legislation. It has, as I said, got very little information on it. It does, of course, then create a base for further and a lot of powers being transferred into the secondary legislation process. That further limits our ability to assess and scrutinise the Bill's rights.

As a matter of principle, we just do not think the Government should work to—. Well, our approach is one of social partnership—one of positive and progressive engagement. We believe that governments should work to resolve industrial disputes collaboratively, rather than seeking to impose their will through the reduction of workers' rights. As a former trade union lawyer for 30 years of my life, imposing tighter restrictions on trade unions is highly regressive, and the Bill is just another unwarranted attack on the rights of workers to take legitimate industrial action. I think you have to see this legislation within other regressive legislation that seeks to restrict civil liberties and freedoms that we've come to enjoy.

So, we will be making it very clear to the UK Government that we oppose the Bill in the strongest of terms and that officials are working to find out more about the substance and timings of the Bill, and we will be expressing our full range of concerns to the Department for Transport.

Thank you for the question. The special purpose committee reported on 30 May and made 31 recommendations, including one relating to the introduction of gender quotas. At present, officials are developing policy for legislation in relation to those recommendations.

Thank you. There are clearly serious legal and constitutional questions as to whether the Welsh Government indeed has any such power to introduce radical changes to our electoral laws. Attempting to enforce these quotas at a national level on all parties is completely without precedent in our democracy. It also raises the question of those who do not identify as either male or female and thus would not place themselves in either category. This actually demonstrates the issue with trying to select elected members on the basis of arbitrary—I can never say this word—arbitrary characteristics, where particular groups or cross-sections of society will always feel excluded in some way. That is why, in this country, we have always thrived on the uniting principle of meritocracy—basically meaning the best person gets the job. I find personally, as a woman of 28 years—

Can you ask the question, please, Janet?

I am doing. As a woman in politics for over the last 28 years elected, I find this insulting, what you propose going forward. Will the Counsel General make public any legal advice concerning the power of the Welsh Government to make this unprecedented intervention in the way in which politicians in Wales are elected? Diolch.

Thank you for the supplementary question. Perhaps I'll deal with the point you raised when you said the best person gets the job. You might want to explain to me why it is, then, that only 18 per cent of the Tory membership in this Senedd is female. I'm not sure what conclusions we should draw from that. I'll leave that there, because the special purposes committee recommendation 11 was that the Senedd should be elected—

Can the backbenchers please stop to talking with one another so I can hear the answers from the Counsel General?

Recommendation 11 was that the Senedd should be elected with statutory gender quotas. Recommendation 17 of the report was that the Welsh Government take appropriate steps to ensure that our recommendations on Senedd reform for 2026 are not put at undue risk of a Supreme Court referral. So, effectively, officials have been undertaking work to develop a detailed policy aimed at giving effect to recommendation 11, whilst also being mindful of recommendation 17. Now, the purpose of the recommendations that were made by the special purpose committee, and the overarching aim in introducing gender quotas is to make provision, the aim of which is to ensure that elected Members of the Senedd broadly mirror the gender diversity of the Welsh population. In my position as law officer and as Counsel General, I'll be mindful of the need to ensure that the Senedd reform legislation as a whole is going to be clear, is going to be robust and that it will be within competence.

Question 7 [OQ58644] is withdrawn. Question 8, Alun Davies.

Thank you. We've had no engagement from the UK Government before the Bill was introduced. We have some serious concerns about it, including the very broad powers it gives to Ministers of the Crown and its potential implications for the devolution settlement. We are recommending that the Senedd withhold consent for the Bill.

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for that. I'm grateful to hear his final point there. This is a rotten and grubby piece of legislation that has, by its introduction, tarnished the reputation of the United Kingdom in councils across the world. It has damaged our relationship with the EU and has demonstrated that the UK Government itself is prepared to break international law and agreements freely entered into having deceived the unionist population of Northern Ireland. It really is a squalid piece of legislation and one of the most dishonourable pieces of legislation that I've seen in front of any legislature at any time. It is important, Counsel General, that, as a legislature and as a Welsh Government, this place stands up for good governance, stands up for international law and stands up for the values of democracy where freely entered-into agreements are delivered by all parties. Can the Welsh Government reassure this Chamber this afternoon that it will continue to argue that this piece of legislation not only damages the UK externally and internationally, but undermines the basis of the UK constitution internally as well?

Thank you for that supplementary. I think I agree with all the points that you've made. In the summer, I attended a British-Irish Association conference, and, at that, I made the point that I just think it is fundamentally wrong to try and tackle what is a significant political problem by means of legislation. You cannot legislate to solve those types of problems. The Bill is ill-judged and it's damaging to the UK's international reputation. It is the UK Government going back on an international obligation that it designed and signed early in 2020 as part of the withdrawal agreement. And, if it's enacted and implemented, it will result in a significant breach, in my view, a likely breach, of international law, which does still further damage.

There are a number of reasons why legislative consent cannot be given. There will, of course, be a full debate in this Senedd on the legislative consent motion. But one of the key things for me is this: I cannot see how, with our intrinsic commitment to international law, and to human rights and so on, in all that we do, that we could recommend legislative support for legislation that so blatantly potentially drives a coach and horses through the very concept of the rule of law and international law. On top of that, of course, it gives enormous Henry VIII powers to the Government. So, the Welsh Government's position is not to give consent. Obviously, it is a matter for this Senedd to determine that issue of consent; it is not a matter for the Government, but, during that process, Welsh Government will make its position very, very clear.

Thank you. The Bill will declutter the statute book by removing provisions that are obsolete, spent, no longer of practical utility or effect or have no realistic chance of ever being commenced. This will make it easier and quicker for legal practitioners and others to find the information that they seek.

Thank you. Announcing the consultation on the statue law (repeals) (Wales) Bill, you did advise that the measure would tackle the

'disorganised state of our vast and sprawling statute book.'

I acknowledge that provisions can fall out of use or are never commenced. However, I am concerned that this work is going to contribute to the delay we are experiencing in the implementation of new Welsh law. The clean air Act is late; the Minister for Climate Change is refusing to legislate to replicate sections 116 to 125 of the UK Building Safety Act 2022; we've still not established an environmental governance body; and the Bill comes at a time when the focus of the Welsh Government should be on matters of greater importance, such as the cost-of-living crisis facing people across Wales.

Whilst I appreciate that you are only now consulting on the Bill, do you agree with me that the priority should now be on focusing Welsh resources on the creation of new Welsh laws that our society and our country desperately need?

I thank you for some of those comments, and I certainly agree with you about the importance of focusing on the cost-of-living crisis; of course, that is the very reason why we actually think that the retained EU law Bill should, actually, be shelved or completely disregarded. But, in terms of the responsibilities we have as a Senedd and as a Welsh Government, the purpose of the consultation is, really, to fulfil our ongoing obligation to maintain a Wales statute book. This is, essentially, a housekeeping exercise to remove unnecessary provisions. I don't believe that this will impact on all of the other important legislation that is there, and I think it's a mistake to confuse it within that, because it is not reforming law or changing law. What it is actually doing is a tidying-up exercise of the statute book.

It covers a number of areas, from rural development boards, enterprise zones, recorded public rights of way, Welsh Development Agency and so on and so forth. All Parliaments have a responsibility to do this; all Parliaments, by and large, do do it, to one degree or another. I think we're at a stage where the issue of access to law is really important to us. As we develop Welsh law, it's very important that our law is put into good shape and we exercise best practice. One of the reasons we are introducing, for example, the consolidation Bill on the historic environment, and we'll be doing one in planning, is because there are long-term benefits to us doing so; there are long-term benefits to citizens, practitioners, civic organisations and other bodies to actually having the law in a state that is fit for purpose. So, we will continue with this at an appropriate stage; legislation will be tabled.

If I can just make the point, because I know your comments were well intentioned, that it is equally important, as a Parliament, in terms of our legislative programme, that we also are monitoring the overall quality and state of our legislation, and that where opportunities arise to tidy that up to make it more effective and efficient, then we have an obligation to do so. This is one of my specific responsibilities that I'm carrying through and that I report on each year to the Senedd.

Thank you. Before the Bill was withdrawn from the Second Reading in the House of Commons, my officials assessed its impact on Wales and identified provisions requiring the Senedd’s consent. Any forthcoming data protection reforms by the UK Government will be similarly assessed.

Diolch, Counsel General; thank you for your response on that and for that reassurance. As we now know, the UK Government has said that they are pausing their data reform Bill, but they are continuing to express their plans to scrap the general data protection regulation. Under GDPR, there is a legal requirement for consent to collect and share data; there is also an obligation for companies to delete any personal data when requested.

In the last few weeks the UK Government has gone further than that and released a statement to say that they are working on a new data adequacy agreement with the US that would allow our personal data to be transferred freely, removing the protections currently in place to secure our data from being used by private companies without our knowledge or consent. This means that they could sell our NHS data. This means that it will impact our Agriculture (Wales) Bill that's coming up, because Welsh Government will be collecting that data, and we won't be able to protect it because it will be under UK legislation that impacts us. It means that the biometric data that is being collected on children in schools will be able to be sold. And I have to say, this is all about trade agreements—this is all about trade agreements. So the recent right-wing experiments of the UK Tory Government do not leave me with hope that they will protect citizen data. What can we do? What talks are you having with them? Thank you, Counsel General.

Thank you for raising what is a really important issue that is not often commented on. I think this is the first specific question I've had on this, and it's very important that it has been raised. What I can say generally is that when issues in terms of data collation have arisen, I know that the Welsh Government Ministers have always raised the issue in terms of the protection of that and avoiding the misuse of that. I know that has happened within the health sector, and I see my colleague Eluned Morgan here, who I know took major steps ensuring that NHS data could only be used for specific objectives of medical benefit et cetera, for NHS purposes, and not be used in other ways where it can be sold and disseminated and used for any other corporate or commercial activities. That applies in terms of other legislation that may arise.

So, we will continue to seek to work with UK Government departments to gain information and consider the potential issues arising from any proposals to reform data protection law. We will strongly oppose any reforms that undermine an individual's right to protection of their personal data and their privacy. We do recognise also that the potential loss of EU adequacy is a major threat to Welsh exporting businesses, whose main overseas market continues to be the European Union. So, we will oppose any reform that marks a significant departure from the principles of the EU GDPR on the basis that this is likely to jeopardise the UK's chances in terms of having its EU adequacy status withdrawn.

And finally, question 11, Joyce Watson.

Thank you for the question. We use every lever possible to tackle inequality in the justice system, even though it is not devolved. For example, we worked with partner organisations on the anti-racism action plan for the criminal justice system in Wales that was launched this September and that complements our own anti-racist Wales action plan.

Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. I don't know whether you've had time or opportunity to read and reflect on the new report by Manchester university on racial bias in the judiciary. It found discrimination to be directed particularly towards black court users, from lawyers to witnesses to dependents, and backs up the finding of the 2017 Lammy report. Institutional racism is a very serious charge, but it does seem to fit the bill here. So, can you tell us what Wales is doing and what more we must do to overturn this endemic judicial prejudice?

Thank you for that very important question. Yes, I'm aware of the Manchester report. I've started reading through it and it makes very, very grim reading indeed. It is something that I know the members of the judiciary are very concerned about, and I know that it is something where there are efforts to seek how to address it.

It is not an easy issue to address within a justice system that works in this particular structure and the way in which it operates in conjunction with the legal profession. It's certainly the case that everyone in contact with the justice system deserves an equal opportunity to access the support and the help they need when they are engaged with the justice system. I mentioned earlier, when we were talking about the Cardiff University publication on the criminal justice system, the high rates, almost one of the highest rates in Europe, of imprisonment of those from ethnic backgrounds as opposed to white backgrounds. When you see that data in conjunction with the Manchester report, et cetera, you cannot help but say that there is an institutionalised racism within our justice system.

One of the ways we seek to address this is by working with the criminal justice board for Wales partners, His Majesty's Prison Service, the courts service and policing in Wales to develop the criminal justice in Wales anti-racism action plan, which was published in September, and which the Minister for Social Justice has played such a major role in. This sets out our plan to tackle racism proactively, with a particular focus on staff diversity and training. But there is a long way to go. This also features as part of the evidential base, I believe, in terms of the need for the devolution of justice as well. That is something that is being monitored very closely and that we are raising in opportunities that we have with other law officers and with the Ministry of Justice.

Thank you, Counsel General.

Item 3 is next, questions to the Senedd Commission. First is Jack Sargeant.

In the past, the Commission has supported the White Ribbon campaign by holding an annual event in the Senedd and by raising money through the sale of White Ribbons in the Tŷ Hywel and Senedd shops, which you yourself, Jack, of course, requested. Since the pandemic, the Commission has been mindful of the increased risk of incidents of domestic abuse, as home working has been the norm, and has implemented and communicated increased measures to support those home workers. Ahead of White Ribbon Day in 2022, the Commission will highlight the resources available and encourage staff to make the White Ribbon promise through the Commission's health and well-being strategy pages. I, along with Jack and many other Members, do actively champion the White Ribbon campaign. I know that you took the mantle up from your father, and I was proud to work alongside him, too.

Can I thank Joyce Watson for that answer and all the work she does as a Commissioner, but also in a personal capacity as well? I know you are just as passionate as I am about the White Ribbon campaign. It is my role as an ambassador of the campaign to promote to never use, excuse or remain silent about male violence against women. We've heard already from Joyce Watson exactly what the Senedd staff will do to encourage all staff members, particularly men, to make the promise. So, will you join me today in putting that plea out to all staff across the Senedd that, when they do make the promise, they mean it?

I think that last point you made is a hugely important one. It's one thing making a pledge, it's another thing meaning it. But there are two sides, of course, to the White Ribbon, and one is all the work that is done around the White Ribbon, but the White Ribbon is about attempts to diminish the prevalence of violence against women and children. So, on the one side, we will raise awareness; on the other side, we have to protect people.

Within the home working support pages, the Commission have supplemented existing policies with further guidance for those who experience abuse within that home environment, and the Commission has provided a risk-assessed safe place to work away from home for Commission staff, if they should require it. The domestic abuse policy has been revised and places greater responsibility on all staff to report concerns for a colleague. It also reflects the current change of legislation that finally recognises that children are victims of domestic abuse and experience significant harm. That links to the Commission's newly revised safeguarding children policy. The Commission's support also includes provision of a new domestic abuse loan, because very often it is the case that people leave with absolutely nothing. Commission officials have recently—this October—discussed activities to support victims of domestic abuse with colleague public sector organisations—Welsh Government sponsored bodies that collaborate together.

The qualitative evaluation criteria used for the retender of the catering services included a range of areas to meet the objectives and performance requirements of the Senedd for the service. Cost and quality evaluation was split 30:70—30 per cent for cost and 70 per cent for quality evaluation.

Examples of the key qualitative evaluation criteria included, for example, how the service would support our social and environmental and sustainability objectives, innovations for the service, and staff development and recruitment. The provision of menus and recipes for the service, including hospitality services, was also evaluated within the 70 per cent for quality.

Thank you very much for that answer. I'm glad to hear that only 30 per cent of the criteria was cost. But I think one of the issues—I mean, there are several issues. One is, of course, that the cost of food has increased, and therefore it's very difficult to be comparing the previous contractor with the current contractor in the rapidly rising inflation of food. But the previous canteen contractor, Chartwells, had a Food for Life accreditation from the Soil Association, and this ensured that the food was quality assured i.e. what it said on the tin was actually what was being delivered. Does the new contractor have this, and if not, how can we know that what we're eating is what it claims to be? In light of the greenwash actions of many commercial operators, do you agree with me that, potentially, this risks the reputation of the Senedd and accusations of, 'Do what we say, not what we do'?

I can't answer the specific in that case; I don't have the information to hand in terms of that particular accreditation, but I'm more than willing to look at it. It's an important accreditation by the Soil Association. I'm willing to find out whether that is the case with the new contractor, and I'll write to you with that confirmation or otherwise. And if it is 'otherwise', then I will look into why it was the case that this current contractor was chosen in light of that and whether there are any other aspects of the current contractor's criteria that meet what was undertaken by the previous contractor, or even exceeding that. So, I'll do some digging, if you don't mind—no pun intended—on Soil Association accreditation there with that. I'll do some digging on this and I'll make sure that the Senedd is informed on the actual specific accreditation that you've raised, and it's an important area for me to investigate.

I actually believe in the direct provision of services and I'm opposed to the contracting out of public service to private contractors. Did the Commission consider bringing the contract in-house, and if they did, why did they reject doing so?

Yes, we've investigated a number of times over the number of contractors that we do contract out, whether in-house direct provision is preferable, both in terms of quality and cost. To date, it hasn't proved to be so; I can write to the Member with any specific analysis that was done on this particular contract. He'll have to excuse me that I can't recall it at this point, but I'm happy to provide that evidence. But I can give you the confirmation that we regularly review the issue of direct provision. Like you, instinctively I support direct provision of services. We've seen it actually work to our benefit, of course, when we took in-house, as a Commission, the ICT services, and we saw that especially during the pandemic, how that worked in our favour. But I will confirm some of these points to you when that was last reviewed.

Thank you.

The use of IT by Members has transformed since the beginning of the pandemic. The Commission has continued to drive the improvements needed to accommodate different working practices. The introduction of Zoom and a web-based voting app, alongside improvements to audiovisual broadcasting and interpretation technologies, allow Members to effectively participate in Plenary, irrespective of whether they are physically present in the Chamber or choose to attend remotely.

I'm grateful to the Presiding Officer for that. Presiding Officer, I want you to rip out these grotesque computers that we have placed in front of us. They are completely inappropriate for a debating Chamber; they were designed at a time before we had iPads and before we had the ability to communicate in the way that we can. It's a twentieth-century response to a need that doesn't exist in the twenty-first century. This should be a debating Chamber where we discuss what matters to the people of Wales, and where we listen to each other, no matter what's being said, and not simply carry on answering e-mails, which we could do in any other way, at any other time. This place has to be the cockpit of the nation, the fulcrum of our public debate, and not a call centre.

Well, I don't agree with the florid language used by the Member, but I can see that a time will come when these exact static computers that we currently have in front of us will no longer be useful. I've been looking around me as you were asking your question. Of the three Members closest to me, I can see that one is looking at the papers in front of him, one is looking at the computer screen in front of her, and another is looking at the phone that he has. I'm also a mobile phone user within this Chamber. So, Members make use of various media in looking at the work in front of them, contacting constituents even when they're here, or participating in proceedings. My view is that it doesn't matter what computer you have in front of you, or if you don't have a computer at all; the debate is interesting and lively when Members contribute in a lively and interesting way, and that draws the attention of fellow Members, just like your question has just sent virtually everyone around us to look up from their computer screens very quickly, because Alun Davies was saying something interesting in a contentious way. So, I would say that it's not the fault of the computers; let the Members make the discussion within this Chamber interesting and challenging, and the equipment will follow that, and they will be here in the twenty-first century, just as my phone is in front of me now.

The Commission is committed to the well-being of its staff, and we are acutely aware that the current cost-of-living crisis will be a very real concern for many. We are also aware that it will be a deeply personal matter for some, and that they may not feel comfortable sharing that with their employer. For those reasons, we have pulled together a series of financial and practical resources that can be accessed easily and confidentially through our dedicated intranet pages. These range from a series of salary sacrifice schemes to confidential helplines and signposts for financial and mental well-being, practical suggestions also for reducing costs, and, for those who need it, salary advances that are interest-free. Communications about these are regularly published with our staff.

Thank you, Llywydd, for that response. It's very helpful. As we know, the cost-of-living crisis is affecting many people and families across Wales, and people are finding it tough. Whilst those from more disadvantaged backgrounds are being disproportionately affected, people who are generally seen as 'just about managing' in more normal circumstances are finding themselves in real difficulties. In asking the question, I realise that many employed by the Senedd or those who work as support staff are comparatively better paid than in other sectors, but that doesn't mean that they're not finding things really difficult, as you've acknowledged. It's important, then, that, as a responsible employer, the Senedd does everything it can do to support its employees and their families, and the support on offer needs to be equitable—that is, available and accessible to both Commission staff and Member support staff.

Llywydd, what discussions are you having with colleagues about the ways in which the Senedd can provide support and advice to staff members who may be facing difficulties? I know that you've already alluded to some of that. Perhaps we could use the intranet pages to provide more of a one-stop-shop facility. And I just wondered if there had been any working with the remuneration board to see what further things could be done to help staff members in these difficult times.

Well, yes, as you've outlined in your supplementary as well as the answer I gave, these are real and pressing issues for members of staff, people who work on our estate during these months, and there is worry, of course, as to what the future will hold for some. As I hope I emphasised in my answer, we are aware of this; we have discussed it as a Commission in our most recent meeting on Monday, and we are aware of the need to ensure that all staff, on an equitable basis, are able to access information and support and use our intranet pages in particular to look at that, and I'd urge all staff to make sure that they make themselves regularly aware of any support that is available.

I know that the remuneration board as well are aware of the implications of the cost-of-living crisis for support staff of Members and have provided some support already in terms of allowance for members of staff who may be working at home and who have increased costs due to that, and I'm sure that the remuneration board are actively seeking any further information that they can glean as to where the pressures exactly exist and will respond and consider those requests accordingly.

Thank you, Llywydd and Joyce Watson.

Item 4 this afternoon is topical questions. We have one topical question, and I call on Russell George to ask that question.

I've just heard that the required turnout threshold has been reached for the Royal College of Nursing members balloted in all NHS employer organisations in Wales, with the exception of Aneurin Bevan health board, and in each of these, a simple majority mandate for strike action has been achieved. So, just to be clear, in Wales, RCN member nurses have voted for strike action everywhere with the exception of the Aneurin Bevan health board.

As a Welsh Government, we recognise why so many nurses have voted the way that they have, due, in no doubt, to the Tory-inflicted cost-of-living crisis, and also, the increased work pressures that many nurses are facing. And can I be clear that we agree that nurses should be fairly rewarded for their important work, but there are limits as to how far we can go to address these concerns in Wales without additional funding from the Conservative Government at the UK level?

Thank you, Minister, for your response. We know that, in the last half an hour, as you've said, six health boards across Wales out of the seven have responded to the result of the RCN strike ballot, and strikes will take place in those health board areas.

I have to say, Minister, I'm disappointed by your response, trying to deflect away from your responsibility. This is a Labour-run NHS in Wales, this is your responsibility, and it's for you to solve this problem. And I'm disappointed by your answer this afternoon. We know that, in Wales, a fifth of the population are waiting on an NHS waiting list, 60,000 of those waiting for over two years, the longest ambulance red-calls responses on record, and the worst accident and emergency waiting times in Britain. So, the last thing that we need in Wales, and the people of Wales need, is for nurses to be striking. Now, I appreciate that solving this problem is difficult. I appreciate that—it is not easy. But it is your dispute to solve, Minister. It is the responsibility of this Labour Government here. I hope that every opportunity has been taken, every opportunity possible has been taken, to avoid getting to this point and stopping strike action. So, can I therefore ask you, Minister: can you tell me how many times you have met with the Royal College of Nursing to negotiate the proposed pay rise; what approach are you going to adopt to bring any strike action to a close; what effect do you believe that the strike action will have on those long waiting times for emergency and elective treatment, which I've just outlined; and, finally, what will the cost be, if any, in agency nurses to cover any striking action?

Thanks very much. Can I just be absolutely clear that, without additional funding from the UK Tory Government, it will be impossible, within the current health and social care budget, to provide the kind of inflation pay rise for the NHS without facing—

Please allow the Minister to answer so we can all hear.

—some extremely difficult cuts that would have to be made elsewhere in the health budget. And that is an extremely difficult—. If he wants to give me some ideas of exactly where he thinks we should cut to pay for this, I'm all ears.

Now, I want to make clear that, in Wales, we work in social partnership. I meet very regularly with the RCN. We have a conversation, which is ongoing. We of course will continue, now we know the results of the ballot, to discuss what contingency planning we will need to put in place. We will not be using agency nursing to cover any shortfalls, because we respect the right to strike in Wales, and we understand that the nurses have not taken this action lightly and we appreciate the strength of feeling amongst members. I think this is the first statutory ballot on industrial action across the UK in the 106-year history of the Royal College of Nursing. Can I make it clear also that we would expect and we will continue to have conversations with the Royal College of Nursing in terms of the derogations that would happen at the time of the strike? In other words, we would expect emergency and cancer care to continue, for example, and we will be having those conversations in the forthcoming weeks.

Can I first of all register my support for all RCN members and the way they voted? Nobody wants to see industrial action taking place, and that includes, more than everyone, the nurses themselves. But the fact that this ballot took place in the first place tells us all we need to know about how nurses feel. Now, in driving a decade and more of public service cuts and real-time cuts to nurses' pay, the UK Government created a crisis. We can recruit into nursing, because, thankfully, we have enough people who care, but we can't hold on to nurses, because they feel undervalued. And whilst that's not all about financial rewards—we're still waiting for the extension of section 25B of the safe staffing levels legislation, for example—we simply have to show, through nurses' pay packets, that they really are valued. So, the UK Conservative Government should not have created this crisis; they should have undone the damage they themselves caused. And the Labour Welsh Government should have taken the opportunity, if not when the sun was shining—because it hasn't shone for some time—but at least before it disappeared behind the darkest of dark economic clouds we now face, to address the cuts in pay that have built up over time, and those other elements that have contributed to the unsustainability of nursing in Wales.

Now, pay, as I say, is just the tip of the iceberg—there are so many issues that need to be addressed—but nurses have taken a pay cut for the last 10 years. I understand that the Minister is still refusing to meet and negotiate pay with the RCN, but, I'm sorry, the need to negotiate has to be non-negotiable. Now, if Scotland can take the first step to prioritising their nurses by increasing their pay there by 7 per cent, why can't we? I agree entirely with the Minister that the Conservatives in UK Government have to take the blame for driving those cuts in public services, but there are actions that Labour can take here in Wales. When are we going to take the action that the Scottish Government have taken in Scotland?

Thanks very much. Can I be clear that we have been recruiting to the workforce in Wales, in terms of nurses, for several years? We've seen a 69 per cent increase in the number of nurse training places in Wales since 2016. The challenge, as you mentioned, is retention, and we understand that. These nurses have been under incredible pressure, in particular during COVID. We understand that that pressure has been unrelenting, and we also understand that they're heading into a very difficult winter. Those conversations will continue.

We have conversations regularly with the Royal College of Nursing, but I've got to be absolutely clear that there is no money left in the NHS budget. So, if we're going to find this money, we would have to cut it from the services that we give to the public in Wales, and, as you've all pointed out, there are many people waiting for operations in Wales as we speak. So, we're going to have to make some pretty tough choices here.

I know that Plaid Cymru, for example, are very keen for us to honour the commitment to pay the real living wage to care workers. Again, we'll have to find that money from somewhere else. So, let's be absolutely clear that taking political decisions is about determining what your political priorities are. It's very, very difficult when you have a limited funding pot that has been brought about and is going to get substantially worse because of the chaos the Tory Government has inflicted on us in recent weeks.

What we need to see is the Welsh Government taking responsibility for nurses' pay and stop passing the buck onto Westminster whenever the going gets tough. You slice the pie at the end of the day, Minister, and you have full control over this matter. The Scottish Government have put forward a pay offer that will see nurses in the country given an uplift of £2,205, with the health Secretary, Humza Yousaf, saying that the new deal for the 2022-23 pay cycle would reflect the hard work of NHS staff and

'will go a long way to help them through the cost of living crisis.'

Now, I don't agree with the political make-up of the Scottish Government, but at least what they have shown is some guts and some leadership in dealing with nurses' pay, which has prevented strike action by the RCN up in Scotland. Are you happy to stand here this afternoon as a Labour Minister, in the shadow of Nye Bevan, and preside over the first nursing strike this country has ever seen, all because this Government can't get its act together? We are heading into winter with all the associated pressures, and in a situation, for the first time ever, that our vital front-line NHS staff are likely to walk out. When are you going show some guts, take some responsibility and give our hard-working NHS workers the pay reward they deserve?

Russell George asked you in his question how many times you've met with the RCN, and you've refused to answer, health Minister. So, could you please answer that question on how many times you have met with the RCN? Thank you.

Well, I won't be lectured by a Tory on how to deal with the NHS. I will not be lectured by a Tory. And the shadow of Nye Bevan—absolutely, I feel a real responsibility to make sure that we provide the best possible service for the people of Wales. And that does mean keeping our nursing friends and our colleagues safe in the NHS, and making sure that they are happy in their workplace. And we will continue to have those conversations.

As I say, I meet regularly with the RCN, at least quarterly—at least quarterly—and, on top of that, at other times.

But can I just give you a little bit of background to how we've come here today, because this pay award that is on the table at the moment is implementing in full the NHS pay review body recommendations? And as part of the pay review body process, various parties, including the Welsh Government, but also including trade unions, have the ability to submit evidence for their consideration, and then the independent pay review board submits their proposal. And what we've done is to take on their recommendations, which has been the story for many, many years. If we step out of that, then we're opening up a whole new world that we need to consider what happens if that happens. So, we're not in that place, and, as I say, it's going to be very, very difficult for us to find any additional funding.

Just a note to Gareth Davies—the pie has shrunk over the last 12 years, and that is why the whole of the public sector is struggling so badly in terms of its budgets, in terms of the resources it has to deliver the services. So, there is no more money, because the chances of the UK Government suddenly shaking this magic money tree and delivering us more money is absolutely infinitesimal. So, my question, Minister, is this: I appreciate that you've only just got this information, but what's really interesting about what you've just said is that Aneurin Bevan health board has not followed the other six health boards in voting for strike action, and I wondered if you've had any time to reflect on whether that is down to the fact that Aneurin Bevan is consistently sector-leading in the way it delivers services, and reshaping them to constantly being better able to meet people's needs, and whether this has enabled staff in Aneurin Bevan to not have such a stressful working existence, which has made them less likely to strike.

Thanks very much, Jenny. Certainly, we're always keen to work in social partnership. Obviously, I haven't had a chance to digest what is happening in Aneurin Bevan and why they perhaps have taken a slightly different route. My understanding is that they didn't reach the threshold of the numbers of people to participate, but I haven't seen the exact breakdown, so I'll look forward to analysing those results and seeing what is going on there that's different from other areas. But, as I say, I am very keen to make sure that we continue the conversation with our trade union partners, and to make sure that, where we can, we can stand with the nurses, who certainly deserve a pay award.

And, finally, Joyce Watson.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. First of all, I want to declare the fact that a close family member is a member of the RCN, before I speak on this. We all know that nurses are under huge pressure. We also all know that nurses were at the front line and instrumental at the time of the pandemic, and that others went outside every Thursday evening to clap their endeavours to try and save us from the worst excesses and death rates, whilst, at the same time, putting themselves forward on the front line. The pay award, as the Minister has said, was delivered and agreed by the pay review body, and has been paid in full, but the point here is that that was done before the double act—Truss and Kwarteng—crashed the economy, and has now put huge strain on families and public services. We can't get away from that, and I can hear the silence over there now; they're not trying to.

So, I think what needs to happen here—. And we've got a statement coming forward, but it's being leaked and drip fed to us that the Tories intend to cut public expenditure. They've made that perfectly clear, and they're drip feeding. Now, if you're going to cut public expenditure, included in that, and maybe the Tories here need a lesson, will be the NHS. That includes it. [Interruption.] It isn't beside it; that is public service, that is public expenditure. So, what I hope the Tories will do here, because they're clearly, like all of us here, exercised by the fact that we want to reward our nurses and all other staff who work to protect us and deliver our services, what I hope that they will do is write to the UK Government before that budget cuts the public expenditure even further, so that we can deliver what we know we want to deliver to the people who are delivering those services for us. And I look forward to having copies of those letters, delivered by e-mail or on my desk; they can take their choice in which way they do that. Thank you.

Thanks very much. The cost-of-living crisis, as Joyce has pointed out, is hitting everybody, but it's hitting nurses as well as other people, and it's really depressing to hear of nurses going to foodbanks and other places. That is, really, a very difficult situation. And what we have seen, as you pointed out, is a huge increase in energy costs, a huge increase in food costs, and now, as you pointed out, thanks to Truss and Kwarteng, what we've got are increases in mortgages, and that's what's really challenging people. All of those nurses who own homes are now going to have to dig deeper, as a result of the chaos that Truss inflicted on our economy. And—can I just be clear—it's not just about this year, as Joyce has pointed out, we are expecting substantial cuts next year. Now, even if the NHS stays at the same level as it is at the moment, we know that, with an ageing population and with digital advances and things, we should be improving the NHS by about 2 per cent a year. That is going to be incredibly difficult in future. But, on top of that, what we're seeing is an erosion of the amount of money that is available for us to spend on the NHS. So, I've given you this example before, but I'm going to give it to you again: I had—

Can I ask Members to be quiet, please? I'd like to hear the answer from the Minister, and Members are getting rather loud in their backbench heckling.

I had £170 million to clear the backlog, and now I've had an additional bill for £207 million for the cost of energy. I've had a little bit of money to cover that from the UK Government, but nothing like what is needed. So, that means we have to find cuts from within the NHS. That is your doing. That is your doing, and you have not come to the rescue. Go and speak to your political masters up in London.

I thank the Minister.

Item 5, the 90-second statements. First of all, Mike Hedges.

Thank you very much. Tabernacle Chapel in Morriston. This year marks 150 years since the opening of the independent Tabernacle chapel in Morriston. Those watching Dechrau Canu Dechrau Canmol on Sunday would have seen the chapel full and would have seen the splendour both inside and out. It was designed by the architect John Humphrey and was built at a cost of £15,000 in 1872, which is equivalent to over £1 million today. It is a big chapel.

I don't know how to say it in Welsh, but it is a building that shows Morriston and is seen as the chapel of Morriston.

Previously, it was the home of the world-famous Morriston Orpheus choir, and it now regularly hosts concerts for the Morriston women's choir, the Morriston rugby club choir and the Tabernacle choir.

It was built to replace Libanus, because that had become too small for the number of regular attendees. The design was copied several times elsewhere in Wales. The pulpit is the focal point, and below it is the sedd fawr, or elders’ pew, for the deacons. The Welsh inscription above the organ reads 'Addolwch yr Arglwydd mewn perffaith sancteiddrwydd', or 'Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness'.

Like any 150-year-old building, it is in need of constant repair. Swansea Council has recently been supporting the building, and has turned the vestry into a space available to the community. Like many chapels in Wales, it has an ageing and declining congregation. However, this is the landmark building in Morriston—psalm 96.

I have previously asked for the Tabernacle to be turned into a museum of religion in Wales. We cannot afford to lose this building.

I'd like to take this opportunity to congratulate S4C, which has its headquarters in Carmarthen, on celebrating its fortieth birthday last week. The channel was established on 1 November 1982, and I'm sure that many of us will have fond memories of gathering around the television on that historic evening. I have some very fond memories of the launch.

Over the past few decades, the channel has created iconic programmes and characters that have stayed with generations of viewers: Superted, Sali Mali, C'mon Midffîld!, Cefn Gwlad, Pobol y Cwm, and of course memorable rugby and football matches.

The channel has developed not only to be an important part of the personal lives of so many of us, but its contribution to our journey towards becoming a confident, vibrant and inclusive nation has also been very notable indeed.

Whilst challenges remain, the channel has been remarkably successful in evolving as our viewing habits have changed so much. When S4C was launched, there were just four channels available, but now digital and various different platforms are available, with a choice of hundreds of different channels. But thanks to the innovation of staff and management, the channel has succeeded in reflecting twenty-first century Wales to viewers across the globe, ensuring that the Welsh language belongs to everyone in Wales.

In celebrating the 40 years, we must also recognise those who campaigned so valiantly for its establishment and who sacrificed so much for the benefit of the channel: Gwynfor Evans, the members of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, and ordinary people who understood the importance of having a Welsh language channel for the future of the Welsh language. Our debt to them is very great.

So, long live S4C and onwards to the next 40 years. Thank you.

Thank you very much to you both.

Item 6 is next, a debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Raising the Bar: Securing the future of Hospitality, Tourism and Retail'. I call on the Chair of the committee, Paul Davies, to move the motion.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I move the motion tabled in my name.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors are really at the heart of our nation. Their importance to supporting and enhancing life in Wales will be clear to everyone in this Chamber. Whether it's in the form of a bustling high street, a nice country pub, or a restaurant selling locally produced food cooked by expert chefs, the retail and hospitality industries are at the core of our communities across Wales.

As well as making use of and often enhancing our retail and hospitality offer, tourism allows us to show off the best of Wales to the rest of the world and provides 12 per cent of jobs in the Welsh workforce. In short, these industries are absolutely vital to foster, support and promote culture and the good life we all want to pursue.

The hospitality, tourism and retail industries were one of the first areas we identified to explore when we met to plan the new committee's priorities. Initially, we identified these sectors as we knew that they were facing big challenges as a result of the pandemic. Retail and hospitality were facing the huge challenge of recovery and adapting to the new post-pandemic world. Tourism was facing a slightly different challenge. The industry had also been hit hard by the pandemic, but was facing a situation of feast or famine. During the lockdown restrictions, tourism businesses, as with most retail and hospitality, had to close, but then as the UK started to reopen but international travel was still off the table, the industry found itself overwhelmed by demand.

We decided to look at these industries from two sides. One was the economic viability and sustainability of the sectors, particularly looking at COVID recovery and long-term viability. The second element we wanted to investigate was the workforce. This included improving the quality of jobs in the sector, addressing labour shortages, and looking generally at skills in the workforce. The committee is very grateful to those who gave evidence to our inquiry, in particular the anonymous individuals from across the country who completed our survey and gave us a real insight into what it's like working in these sectors.

Those participants told us about the long hours, low pay, job insecurity, lack of worker voice, and a lack of respect from customers and employers. However, they also told us that they enjoyed working in the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors as it allowed them to work in their local community, gave them flexibility in their lives, and provided them with a social environment. One participant told us that, and I quote,

'Working in retail means that I don’t have to move out of my community for work. I can live in the area I grew up in where my language is used.'

Another told us that, and I quote,

'The flexibility generally allows me to work around other aspects of my life. It also allows me to work in my local community. So many jobs require you to commute or move, but I can stay and work in the community that I grew up in.'

And I think I speak for all on the committee when I say that it was quite moving to hear the participants speak so passionately about working in their local communities and where they grew up. Clearly, there is a great sense of pride in working in Wales's vibrant visitor economy, and that is why action is needed now to ensure that working in these sectors can offer secure and fulfilling careers for the future.

Our report contains 18 recommendations across four broad areas: business support, the retail strategy, the visitor economy and labour market challenges. I'm pleased that all recommendations have been accepted either in full or in principle by the Welsh Government, and so I welcome the Minister's commitment to better supporting these sectors.

The report first considers business support and how the sector can be better supported post pandemic. Representatives from all three sectors made it clear that they believed the Welsh Government provided a comprehensive package of financial support measures to businesses over the course of the pandemic, and they recognise that some of that support was specifically targeted at the hospitality, tourism and retail industries. However, a number of areas for continued support and attention from Welsh Government were identified by witnesses, including business rate relief and reform, support to tackle cost-of-living increases, and better supply chain support and local procurement.

The next non-domestic rates revaluation will take effect on 1 April 2023, based on property values as at 1 April 2021. This should mean that the rateable values will reflect the impact of the coronavirus pandemic, and I'm pleased that in response to the committee's report the Welsh Government has committed to reviewing this and whether transitional support is needed or appropriate, going forward. Businesses in hospitality, tourism and retail made it clear that business rates are an increasingly unjust system, and so I hope the Minister will reflect on their message and use the levers he has to help ensure that any reform of the system results in a much more level playing field for businesses, going forward.

We also know that businesses are feeling pressured by the rising cost of living. The impact of the war in Ukraine, supply-chain issues, rising inflation and the soaring cost of energy, fuel and food have all contributed to the rising cost of living, and that's having a real impact on Welsh businesses. As our report makes clear, sectors that rely on households' discretionary spending on non-essential goods and services are being increasingly squeezed, and workers and businesses owners already badly affected by the pandemic face increased mental health strain. Indeed, businesses operating in more rural areas in particular are disproportionately affected by increased energy and fuel costs to run their business and access services, as well as facing greater skills shortages.

I want to thank the Chair and clerks for their work on this report, and I also want to give thanks for the work that happened through the engagement team, which was a great help as we gathered evidence from workers in the sectors of tourism, retail and hospitality, a workforce that often has difficulty in ensuring that its voice is heard outside of the workplace. I know that many are very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the committee’s work.

I’m going to focus on hospitality in particular. It’s a significant sector in itself, employing at its height 200,000 people in Wales, and it’s a sector that I have a good amount of experience in. However, much of this will be applicable to retail and tourism.

When we first undertook our inquiry into the sector, much of it focused on the effects the pandemic had on it as a sector, and the struggles the sector was having in dealing with the aftermath. I think it’s fair to say that much of that has been completely overtaken by the cost-of-living crisis. All of us get on a daily basis correspondence from businesses in our constituencies and regions who are struggling to stay open. VAT and business rates were highlighted in evidence to us. The Chair has referred to business rates already; VAT was also a particular sticking point of interest, given the desire by the sector not to revert back to the 20 per cent rate. I think the economy Minister was right in what he said: going back to the 20 per cent rate could damage the economy more than help it; more so now, given the cost-of-living crisis.

Thanks to the cost of living, we can now also add to that list of worries high inflation and energy costs. One hospitality business in my region, for example, saw their annual energy bill go from £15,000 to just shy of £70,000. Another more public one, Ristorante Vecchio in Bridgend, shared how their energy bill was now at £8,000 a month. The reality is we need serious intervention from Government now if many hospitality businesses are to survive beyond the winter.

Staffing was also an issue raised with us as a committee, and the real struggle the sector is having with recruitment. We heard from the sector, who were ready to admit that there were long-standing issues that needed to be addressed—such as wages, job security and work-life balance—as a starting point. But there was also a very keen desire to professionalise the sector as well, to show new entrants that there is a progression pathway, as well as training, something highlighted consistently as a desire from the evidence collected from workers. Fundamentally, this is needed, because I would hope it would lead to a change in culture and in how people treat hospitality workers as a whole. The amount of times customers thought it was okay to talk down and patronise me and my colleagues are uncountable; it was an hourly occurrence, if not a by-the-minute one.

I'll always remember one interaction I had. A couple came up to the bar that I was working on at the time. They ordered two espresso martinis. I could tell almost straight away that they were a specific type of people. It wasn't because of the drinks they ordered, because I do actually quite like an espresso martini, but I could tell it by the way they ordered the drinks. I started making the order. They went on about a holiday that they'd been on recently, holidaying on their friend's £1 million yacht, and they turned to me and said, 'I bet that's a bit of a culture shock for you, isn't it?' I think Members know me well enough to know what my reaction to that would have been, but that's an example I have. I have many more examples, but there are also millions more examples out there.

I'd like to start my contribution today by echoing the remarks of colleagues thanking the clerking team and everyone who gave evidence that helped inform this inquiry. I think it's a really important piece of work. Around a third of the Welsh workforce is employed in the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors. The latter alone, Wales's largest private sector employer, accounts for just over 6 per cent of our national gross value added. As such, these are incredibly important parts of our economy.

When we normally conduct an inquiry of this nature, I approach the piece of work with a spirit of optimism. We investigate a problem, get some really robust data and evidence, put forward non-partisan solutions, and these, hopefully, lead to remediation of the challenges identified. However, in this case, with this inquiry, the challenges have become much more severe, even in the five months since the publication of our report. I know that this will not be a surprise to colleagues in the Siambr, to those who gave evidence, or to businesses and people employed in the sectors.

The Caterer, which covers hospitality, conducted a survey of the sector in September. Eighty per cent of respondents said rising energy prices had wiped out their profits. Three out of five feared their business would not be there in a year's time. The majority of respondents had noted energy bills had risen by more than 100 per cent, with 22 per cent saying their costs had increased by a staggering 400 per cent. The chief executive of UKHospitality, at the start of this week, issued a stark warning about the sector's extreme vulnerability to energy price fluctuations, and accused energy company bosses of profiteering. Of course, hospitality and tourism are both sectors gravely affected by people having less money in their pockets due to the cost-of-living crisis.

Similarly, these pressures are also having a tremendous impact on workers in the sectors. USDAW trade union represents shop workers. I'm a member of USDAW, and in their recent survey of retail workers, it was revealed that half are struggling to get to work due to increased travel costs, one in four workers are missing meals every month to pay bills, and three in four report that their mental health is affected as a result of financial worries. There is a clear need for this committee to undertake further work in this area, examining the impact of the crisis and scrutinising the interventions of both the Welsh and UK Governments. I hope this is a topic to which we can return and, moreover, one where future inquiries can leave me feeling a little more optimistic for the future.

Turning to the report's specific recommendations, I just want to comment on a few key ideas. Firstly, recommendation 5 is calling for additional support from the Welsh Government for capital investment. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted this recommendation. It's something I support. However, we must realise the impact of spending pressures on Welsh Government budgets since our report was written and since Welsh Government replied to our recommendations. That's not just the cost of living and rising prices, but the economic inadequacy of successive Tory Prime Ministers and their cliques. As the finance Minister reminded us just last month, over the current three-year spending period, the Welsh Government's budget will be worth up to £4 billion less in real terms than when it was set the year prior—£4 billion less. The challenge is stark.

I would like to begin this afternoon's contribution by echoing the comments of all my fellow committee members by thanking everyone who contributed and the clerking team in compiling this report. It comes at an incredibly pivotal time for the hospitality and tourism industry, especially within the context of incoming Welsh Government legislation, so I'm pleased we are given the opportunity to review the Welsh visitor economy and lay out a concrete set of proportionate recommendations.

The hospitality, tourism and retail industries are key employers in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire. Our natural beauty is world renowned and enjoyed by both domestic and international tourists. And when they visit, they're welcomed by a whole range of small and medium-sized businesses, all of whom contribute economic opportunities to my constituents. With that, my intention this afternoon is to focus on two specific aspects of this report: the impact of the Welsh Government's tourism tax, and the fair work levers available to the Welsh Government to ensure that the barriers to work within the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors are minimised.

Recommendations 9 to 11 of this report place a specific requirement for the Welsh Government to provide concrete evidence, information and reasoning for the introduction of their tourism tax. We are not just requesting the thought process behind the decision to pursue this policy, but we wish to better understand the output of three individual research projects that investigated the prospect of a Wales tourism tax. The committee rightly highlighted the tourism and hospitality industries' view that any form of tourism tax or levy was neither wanted nor needed. The Welsh tourism association suggested that the Welsh Government's policy would be a form of double taxation, and UKHospitality Cymru stated that a levy was the wrong tax at the wrong time. Indeed, other organisation described this policy as a hugely regressive step and a knee-jerk reaction. It's not really a ringing endorsement of your plans, Minister, and I would go so far as saying it is the direct opposite of what the industry wants and needs—not 'naysayers', as the previous speaker would say, but the industry themselves.

I am glad to see that the Welsh Government has accepted all three of these recommendations, but, in reference to recommendations 9 and 10, I am disappointed that the committee had to nudge the Welsh Government towards transparency. I am disappointed that the requested information was shared with the committee less than two hours ago, but, hey, at least we got it.

One such way to support business growth is by ensuring that businesses can grow. In doing so, we're not just investing back in the local economy, but we're using existing levers to address employment shortfalls within the industry. As recommendation 18 sets out, there are significant barriers to fair work, specifically in relation to topics of employment, wages and conditions. Over the last several years, difficulties have arisen as a consequence of local employment gaps, and in no better way was this illustrated than last summer, when businesses in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire had to shut during the peak season due to low staffing levels.

I want to start, again, like everybody else, by thanking my colleagues and the clerks for their work on this report. As our Chair, Paul Davies, said, this is one of the first things that we said that we wanted to look into, and it seems like a very long time ago now. As you set out in your foreword, the staycation, at the time that we were looking at it, wasn't it—the bounce back from the COVID-19 pandemic. And it reignited that sense of pride in our local hospitality, tourism and retail sectors across Wales. Now, almost 18 months later, in conjunction with this, these very sectors that often saw the brunt of those COVID restrictions on businesses, especially the small and local economies in our towns and communities, they are now facing this cost-of-living crisis and we can expect, for businesses, if they're not already suffering, it could get an awful lot worse.

So, I am very, very pleased that this has come out now and that we've managed to really incorporate both aspects of what's happening for our businesses, and I'm really pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted, or accepted in principle, all of the recommendations set out in the report. There is an overwhelming sense of need to insulate these sectors, but, also, it would be nice to see whether they can also continue to thrive and not just have to survive through these really tough economic times.

As our Chair, Paul Davies MS, highlighted, recommendation 13 is really crucial, because it really sets out the opportunities for career pathways within the hospitality and tourism sector, including the degree apprenticeships. During the evidence sessions, we heard from workers from a range of backgrounds who wanted to work in the places that they grew up in. The Government and these sectors must work collaboratively to ensure that there are opportunities for career progression locally to support this. I am pleased to see that this work on the foundation economy is being carried out by the Welsh Government, and I hope to see further opportunities in the future.

I also wanted to highlight recommendation 18 about the vitality of fair work, because it is no secret that there are many workers in these sectors who continue to face insecurity. Wales Trades Union Congress; Unite Wales; the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and others contributed to evidence sessions detailing the realities of insecure contracts that really just made them feel like they're disposable, and that workers are facing poor pay and then lack of staff. One contributor said that she had no idea of her rights at work, and I would stress that we must do more to empower workers to understand their rights, through the role of trade unions and social partnership. No worker should be facing abuse for simply doing their job, or, as my colleague, Luke Fletcher, highlighted, just being treated as if you're beneath other people because of the profession that you have. Workers should be empowered to speak up on these issues, and I hope that the Welsh Government will take these into consideration when it comes to social partnership in these sectors.

As the first Member to speak in this debate who is not on the committee, can I thank the members of the committee who have spoken so far, especially Paul Davies as the Chair, as well as his research and clerking team and all those who gave their evidence for the report on this important sector, for the recommendations to Welsh Government and for bringing this debate to the Chamber today? What the committee has brought us today is a very interesting report with lots for us as Members, but also for the Welsh Government, to consider as to how they can support the industry, not just financially, but as a friend who listens to concerns in the industry as well. So, I was glad to see that one of the very first lines in the report notes the 'colossal hit' that the tourism hospitality and retail sectors have been under over the past few years. It’s in that context that it is crucial that, now more than ever, we need to be that supportive friend to the sector.

With the interests of time in mind I’ve picked out just a few of the committee report’s recommendations to focus my contribution on today. In recommendation 8, it stated that:

‘The Welsh Government should outline in detail their reasoning for the increase in the number of days per annum that a self-catering property must be available to let to 252, and days actually let to 182’.

As the Minister will be aware, I’ve raised this issue on a number of occasions in this Chamber and had little explanation from Ministers as to the reasoning for that change. Self-catering accommodation forms an important part of the mix in the tourism economy, which is a key industry in many parts of Wales. Moreover, it provides accommodation in rural areas away from centres, allowing them to benefit from the tourist economy too, and in some parts of Wales, it’s the only viable way of turning a day trip in a remote but idyllic Welsh community into an overnight stay.

But what still hasn’t been set out is the rationale for the number of 182 days and how it’s been arrived at, and the jump from 70 to 182 qualifying days seems hugely significant, particularly in light of the consultation responses being overwhelmingly opposed to it. So, justification for changes from the Minister would be reasonable and welcome. What the industry would like to hear from Government is how this will be measured. Is the new threshold linked to seasonal activity, or how many days they expect in an average tourism season? What will that figure look like? In some localities where there is currently a lack of tourist activity and provision, but it would be beneficial for it to be developed, we may wish to spread tourist destinations far away from hotspots. So, there may be a good reason to incentivise lets to be available, and there may need to be wiggle room built in to allow for that locally. These thresholds appear to be very high in that context, therefore, would there be room to adapt to those local circumstances? And whilst we have a great tourism offer here in Wales, I’ve reiterated time and time again that, with the current post-COVID tourism sector visitor market in a very uncertain and unstable period, this impact, along with cost-of-living pressures and the cost-of-doing-business crisis debated here just a few weeks ago, should be taken into account in any new rationale for these new thresholds.

Could I also thank the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee, under, of course, the fantastic chairmanship of Paul Davies, for bringing forward today's important committee report, 'Raising the Bar: Securing the future of Hospitality, Tourism and Retail'. I quite like that title, actually—'Raising the Bar'. As I'm sure that Members from across the Chamber will know, and from contributions from myself in the Senedd over the last 18 months, and especially as the chairman of the Senedd's cross-party-group on tourism, I'm a huge advocate of the hospitality and tourism sector in Wales, and that's why I want to contribute to today's committee report debate—something which Alun Davies often comments to me on, about my advocacy of the sector, and I'm pleased that he's mentioning it again over there—because this report clearly highlights the sheer importance of the sector, but it also outlines many of the challenges it faces as well.

I'd like to just focus my contribution on just a couple of important areas from the report, and firstly, just to again highlight the importance of the sector in our economy in Wales. As always, one to take note of output from the Federation of Small Businesses, I took a keen interest in their report over the summer on tourism that, again, showed that tourism accounts for over 17 per cent of Wales's gross domestic product, but it also accounts for over 12 per cent of employment here in Wales. As others have mentioned, if you include hospitality and retail within that, we're talking about a third of the economy here in Wales, clearly showing how important it is to our communities and to the residents we represent up and down Wales. This was also outlined in the Chair's foreword to the committee report, which I'll directly quote, saying that,

'The hospitality, tourism and retail sectors are absolutely vital to our nation’s success. Alongside the large numbers of jobs they create they also provide the backbone of the entertainment and social life people in Wales, and our visitors, enjoy, and that make Wales an outstanding place to live or visit.'

But there are, of course, challenges facing the sector, and others have already highlighted some of those here this afternoon. As we know, the Welsh Government's proposed tourism tax is of huge concern to the tourism sector, and that's why I, like others, was glad to see the consideration of this as a part of a number of the committee's recommendations to the Welsh Government and, indeed, to the Minister. As outlined in recommendations 9, 10 and 11, it's crucial that Welsh Government sets out its evidence behind a tourism tax, but also shares their research projects behind this, and sets out their intended approach when it comes to this draft legislation.

There is much to welcome in this report and I'd like to thank the committee and its members, led by my colleague Paul Davies, for their work on producing this fantastic report.

As the report points out, there were fearful predictions of mass unemployment during the pandemic, but, thanks to the UK Government's furlough scheme, mass unemployment was avoided in Wales due to the UK Government. I am pleased also that the Minister has accepted recommendations in the report, yet there are still tough times ahead for our hospitality, tourism and retail sector, especially in Brecon and Radnorshire, which relies on this an awful lot.

We are in the midst of global difficulties and the long shadow of COVID is still upon us, but I do think there are two big things that the Welsh Government could do to help Welsh businesses. On reading the report, it was very clear that the tourism levy discussed by the Welsh Government was a big concern for industry bodies and professionals. So, one thing the Welsh Government could do is to ditch the tourism tax and any other anti-business measures aimed at the tourism sector. Our tourism businesses bring in huge amounts of money into Wales, with one in seven jobs that rely on that industry. So, I'd urge the Welsh Government to stop assaulting hard-working people up and down the country who seek to make Wales an attractive destination with their hotels, B&Bs and cottages.

Business rates were also raised in the report. And a lot of people say that they are very regressive in Wales and that things could be done differently here to attract business and help business. So, you could lower business rates in Wales. Labour-run, here in Wales, has the highest business rates in the whole of Great Britain. This does make us less competitive. Tax burdens on businesses are too high and Welsh businesses should be able to keep more of their own money to spend on wages and business improvement. [Interruption.] I'm sure Alun Davies will like this point; he's chuntering away there. But I do understand and I do recognise that the Welsh Government do not have all the levers to help people in Wales. And I was very disappointed with the UK Government's reversal on freezing alcohol duty. That was going to save the hospitality and pub industry £300 million. And I think at a time when our pubs are closing—40 are closing a month in England and Wales—that the UK Government should do more to protect our pub industry. And I would like to hear what the Minister is doing in discussions with the UK Government to actually save our pubs, because they are the life blood of our community.

Hospitality and tourism businesses really do need a friend, and they do need a leg-up from this Welsh Labour Government and the UK Conservative Government. They don't need to be undermined at a time when they face the possibility of going out of business. So, I'd like to welcome the report and thank you for all the work the committee has done, and I'd be grateful to hear the Minister's response.

And I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I too would like to thank members of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee for their in-depth inquiry and report into the future of hospitality, tourism and retail, leading to this debate today.

As we all know, the experience of recent years has been a significant challenge for most businesses in most sectors here in Wales, including, of course, the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors. Now, I won't follow Luke Fletcher in recounting some of my own personal experiences working in the hospitality sector, but I do recognise that not everyone that I dealt with was kind or decent. And actually, we've seen that trend, unfortunately, increase; it's been mentioned by a number of Members, especially given the significant labour shortages that exist in lots of these sectors and, indeed, more broadly. And I'm regularly reminded that whilst, at the moment, most of the world is short-staffed, please be kind and decent to the people who've showed up, and that's really important for the kind of atmosphere we want to create for working people in this and every other sector.

Now, during and since the pandemic, this Government has worked relentlessly to try and support businesses impacted, not just the support that's been provided by the UK Government in furlough—and it was, I think, one of the better measures the UK Government introduced during the pandemic, and I certainly welcomed it—but also the Welsh Government then provided the economic resilience fund and, indeed, additional business rates relief, and that has made a difference in those businesses that have survived and actually managed to end the pandemic in relatively optimistic shape. But, of course, our economy faces significant short- and long-term challenges: the current cost-of-living crisis, increased energy costs, and, of course, skill and recruitment shortages that have not gone away. I do fully recognise the scale and the number of challenges facing businesses. I understand why people who lead, manage and work in those businesses are concerned, and the Welsh Government is in no doubt about the gravity of the situation. We need to recover both from the economic damage of the pandemic, the fact that many businesses are now cash-depleted in having survived; we need to address the realities of our new trading relationships post Brexit and the impact that has on many businesses in these sectors, and, of course, the cost-of-living and the cost-of-business crisis.

So, our renewed economic mission that I published last year sets out clearly the values and priorities that will shape the choices that I will make to support the future of our economy. But, Dirprwy Lywydd, we've already heard from a number of speakers the impact of the turmoil in Westminster and what that has done to the broader economic picture, and, frankly, the relationships we're able to have with the UK Government with so many ministerial changes. And I don't think I can open this debate today without acknowledging the extraordinary challenge that the last two months in particular has created for businesses and, indeed, as Vikki Howells recognised, the fact—and it's an undeniable fact—that the value of the Welsh Government budget, in this spending review period, has decreased by about £4 billion in real terms. And Vikki Howells also recognised that significant worsening in the economic picture since the report was completed, and that's an undeniable reality. It will change the focus of businesses; it will change the ability of this Government and others to support businesses not just to survive but to thrive in the future.

The time has actually gone past the limit.

I just want to finish by making it clear to members of the committee that we have taken seriously the report that we've been provided, we will update on progress on the recommendations, and I look forward to further work with this committee through the rest of the term.

I call on the Chair of the committee, Paul Davies, to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank Members for taking part in this debate this afternoon? Members have all touched on how the retail, tourism and hospitality industries sit at the heart of all of our communities, and that's why it's so important that the Welsh Government really understands and responds to the challenges facing these sectors.

Implementing the right policies at the right time cannot be understated; indeed, it's vital for Wales's economy and liveability. We all want our towns and cities to be thriving, vibrant, community places, and supporting these sectors is an enormous part of building those thriving community networks here in Wales. Now, as the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire said, and the Member for North Wales said, many of our businesses in our constituencies and regions are key employers in the hospitality, tourism and retail sectors.

Members, such as Luke Fletcher and Tom Giffard, the Members for South Wales West, the Member for Bridgend, the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire and indeed the Minister have all touched on the pandemic and the economic impacts of it on our retail, hospitality and tourism sectors. It was an economic shock for which no industry was prepared, and we should take a moment to reflect on the resilience and hard work of those working in hospitality, tourism and retail for what must have been an extremely difficult time. Of course, helping these sectors recover from the pandemic and evolve to new ways of working is a big challenge, but the Welsh Government also has a great opportunity, I think, to rethink how it works with these sectors going forward. These industries are facing challenges from all angles, whether it's taxation policies, shifts to online commerce, or even just the loss of confidence in young people to apply for roles. Arwyn Watkins from the National Training Federation Wales was right to say,

'If the number of jobs that have been lost in this sector over the last 24 months had been lost in any other sector, there would be absolute uproar, quite frankly, and nobody is saying anything about it whatsoever, apart from the employers trying to fill the vacancies.'

And, therefore, the message is pretty simple; the Welsh Government, of course, needs to raise the bar and better prioritise these industries and the people who work in them.

Members, such as the Member for Bridgend, have rightly talked about improving skills, which will help create better jobs and benefit these sectors and our economy more generally. And it's why the committee has specifically recommended that the Welsh Government should set out more detail as to where it sees scope within its planned expansion of the apprenticeships programme for higher level career pathways in tourism and hospitality, including for degree apprenticeships.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Item 7 this afternoon is a debate on the Legislation, Justice and the Constitution Committee report, 'Annual Report 2021/22', and I call on the committee chair to move the motion. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to speak this afternoon and draw the Senedd's attention to the work of the Legislation, Justice and the Constitution Committee during the first full year of the sixth Senedd. Before I start, I would like to place on record our thanks to the Counsel General for his willingness to appear before us and answer our questions on a regular basis.

It is truly appreciated.

Our remit is quite considerable, and our scrutiny responsibilities are almost always subject to timetables and deadlines set either by Standing Orders or the Business Committee. And the scrutiny of subordinate legislation is part of our bread-and-butter work. In the first year, indeed, we considered more than 250 pieces of subordinate legislation made by Welsh Ministers. In part, this can be attributed to the Welsh Government's desire to fully implement Acts passed in previous Seneddau. One such Act is the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016. The case study in our report highlights our scrutiny of the subordinate legislation that implements this Act and the corrections we identified. This shows the importance of our—and the Senedd's—scrutiny role, not least given that subordinate legislation makes up a significant percentage of the law that impacts on the daily lives of our constituents.

It is fair to say that we had not expected, during the first year of the sixth Senedd, to have spent quite so much time reporting on the Welsh Government's legislative consent memoranda for UK Bills. We expressed concern at the extent to which the UK Government is seeking to legislate in devolved areas, notably in circumstances where it is with the support of the Welsh Government. Reporting on memoranda for legislation being made in the UK Parliament, which we have no scope to influence or shape, is frustrating.

We would have preferred to have contributed to the improvement of legislation being made here in the Senedd, as a means of delivering the best possible solutions for communities across Wales—a role, of course, for which we as Senedd Members are elected. This also highlights one of the problems with the legislative consent process: there is no role for the Senedd to influence a decision of the Welsh Government to pursue provisions in a UK Bill in the first place.

Now, we do recognise, Counsel General, that in some cases it is appropriate to use UK Bills to legislate in devolved areas. However, our report highlights that the Welsh Government's principles for using UK Bills to legislate contain—we think—too many caveats and get-out clauses, which in our view render those principles of little practical value in this sixth Senedd period. So, we do therefore intend to draft our own principles by which we can then hold the Government to account.

Overall, Counsel General, we are concerned that too much legislation in devolved areas is being made in the UK Parliament. In certain circumstances, the Welsh Government and the UK Government could legislate in parallel, which would allow for co-operation between Governments where appropriate and for the Senedd to undertake its primary legislative scrutiny role.

Ultimately, the effect of the Welsh Government seeking devolved provision in UK Government Bills or the UK Government including devolved provision in a Bill without any consultation is one and the same: the creation of a democratic deficit and a corresponding decline in accountability here in Wales. That should concern us all, because if this approach continues, there is a danger that it could undermine the Senedd as a legislature and the underlying principles of devolution.

Our report highlights our scrutiny of two Bills introduced to the Senedd in the first year, where we were able to influence the Welsh Government to amend those Bills. It also draws attention to our concerns about the Welsh Government's approach to making law on matters of taxation—and I can see the Chair of a sister committee here as well—and in particular our desire to see primary legislation, rather than subordinate legislation, used to change tax law. Such an approach, we would argue, would respect the democratic mandate and the legislative supremacy of the Senedd.

As a newish member of this committee, it really has been an eye-opener for me, being a part of the committee, to the legislative process of the Senedd and all the inter-governmental working and the sheer breadth of the work the committee does. I'd just like to put on record my thanks to our Chair, Huw Irranca-Davies, for the excellent work he does chairing that committee, and to our vice-chair who stepped into the void the other day and chaired the meeting excellently, I'd like to say.

I don't intend to speak for long, Deputy Llywydd—I'm sure you'll be pleased about that—and I'm probably not going to make some career-enhancing comments, actually, with regard to the legislative consent process. The two things I did want to talk about relate to how the UK Government and Welsh Government legislative consent process just isn't working. One thing that did shock me was the sheer lack of engagement from the UK Government with the Welsh Government on certain elements of legislation; some parts of the UK Government and some departments engage early, other departments from UK Government are shocking—they don't engage early enough on areas that have devolved competence. From my personal point of view, having LCMs sent to the Welsh Government with days or hours to go, saying, 'Can you please consent to this?' is simply disrespectful, it's poor practice with regard to inter-governmental relations, and that simply needs to change. The UK Government need to do more to improve those relationships, because if we are going to see the United Kingdom and all Parliaments working well together, there does need to be mutual respect of all elements of legislatures across the country.

The second point I wanted to make was one that has been highlighted potentially in the media, which is that this Senedd is a legislature in its own right, and we owe it to the people of Wales to be using this place to create Welsh law for Welsh people. The committee raised this; we do think that the Welsh Government is using the UK Government far too much to legislate on devolved areas. This is bypassing scrutiny; it is bypassing our committees and the democratically elected Members here who should be scrutinising this law for Welsh people. That is a matter that does need to be addressed, and I hope the Counsel General, when he responds to the report, will actually pull that together and hopefully give us some answers around that, because I know that's something that the committee really do want to see. As I said, we are a legislature in our own right, and we owe it to the people of Wales, and owe it to our Senedd Members, to respect that.

I don't intend to talk any more; I'm at the two-minute mark and I'm sure my colleague Alun Davies will expand on these matters in a far more eloquent way than I have. But I'd just like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies, Alun Davies and Rhys ab Owen for the great work they do on our committee and being fantastic Members representing this committee and the people of Wales. Diolch.

I hesitate to expand on any matters in this forum, but I'm grateful. I think it's right that James Evans has thanked other members of the committee. I'd like to add to that Rhys ab Owen and, of course, other Members who have sat in this place—Jayne Bryant and Peter Fox as well have contributed to the work of the committee. I also want to thank of course not only the Chair, but the secretariat as well, who do a superb job in providing support for the committee. I'd like to echo the words of the committee Chair as well in thanking the Counsel General for his willingness to attend the committee. At one point, I felt he was attending more committee meetings than some Members, and I have sat in this place long enough to know that sometimes getting the Minister in front of the committee is like pulling teeth. So, we're very grateful to the Counsel General as well, and grateful to the Permanent Secretary, who attended the committee a few weeks ago.

Members who have spoken in this debate have outlined some of the key themes that the committee has sought to address, and I think the themes that have been identified by both the Chair and by the Conservative Member are the themes that I will also seek to address. I've sat on this committee for some years over a number of different Senedds, and I've never had to deal with as many legislative consent motions as we're dealing with at the moment. I'm afraid to say to the Counsel General that the Welsh Government is a villain in this matter, and it's not simply the United Kingdom Government that is acting as a villain; they are both at fault here.

It is not right or proper that the Welsh Government seeks to avoid scrutiny of its legislation by using the channels available to it in Westminster. The people of Wales have voted for devolution, and they voted for scrutiny of this devolved Government by this legislature. It is right and proper that the legislature is able to scrutinise legislation. I have no issue with the LCM process and I've got no issue with the way it's been used in the past, because it has been used to smooth jagged edges. It's been used by Ministers on both sides of the border to enable things to happen more easily and to do so in a way that facilitates the good governance of our countries. But that is not what we're dealing with at the moment. What we're dealing with at the moment is the industrial-level avoidance of scrutiny, and we can't allow that to happen. We have to speak clearly to the Welsh Government to say, as a committee, taking the politics away from this, that we should not and we cannot accept this as a legislature. We need to be clear on that.

But we also need to be clear to the United Kingdom Government that they were not elected with a mandate to deal with these matters. We have the mandate from the people of Wales. The people of Wales have voted twice in referenda to establish a Parliament to govern this country in the way that has been determined, and it is not right or proper that the United Kingdom Government, without a mandate in this country, seeks to legislate in areas that have been devolved to Wales. It is simply wrong, and it is wrong that the Westminster Parliament is used to sledgehammer home legislation for which there is no consent in Wales. We need to be very clear about that.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute today. It was a pleasure to be a member of the committee following my election last May, and I'm really grateful for the way the Chairman and members of the committee welcomed me to that position as a new boy. I also commend the excellent official support for the committee—an outstanding set of officers, and thank you to them. Deputy Presiding Officer, as you'll know, I'm no longer a member of the committee, but I welcome the committee Chair's statement and thank him for his work on leading the committee in such a collegiate and constructive manner. That was very welcome.

One of the main, overarching points, as we've already heard, raised by the report is the interaction between UK Government and Welsh Government when it comes to law making. I would like to reaffirm the point that it is important that the current and future UK Governments respect the devolution settlement, and also agree that there needs to be better inter-governmental working. We are all facing huge challenges at the moment; we need to work together constructively and effectively on these. And so, it is my hope that the new agreement on inter-governmental relations published earlier this year will be fine-tuned over time to ensure that there is improved co-operation on issues of shared interest. It is in this regard that I welcome the previous work of the committee in scrutinising relations between both Governments, and I hope that its future work will help to support an improvement in those relations.

The committee makes a number of points. We've heard already this afternoon about the use of LCMs and what it sees as an over-reliance on this procedure to create law in Wales. And, to some extent, I do sympathise with that point. We do receive a lot of LCMs and there are opportunities for the Welsh Government to look at implementing more made-in-Wales legislation that the Senedd can directly influence. So, there is a question for the Government as to how, as part of its law reform programme, it can increase its legislative capacity. There are also questions for the Senedd as to how we can operate to allow more legislation to be considered, particularly from backbench and opposition Members. However, I would say that we shouldn't seek to unnecessarily duplicate work where the UK Government and Welsh Government believe that it's more cost-effective, quicker and more appropriate to introduce legislation at a UK level.

Finally, Deputy Llywydd, the LJC committee report makes some interesting points about the complexity of Welsh law. As somebody who was new to scrutinising the various types of law that exist whilst on that committee, I was just somewhat surprised by how complex and procedural some of our discussions were. I welcome the Government's programme of work that is looking at making Welsh law more accessible. In this regard, I think that the committee also has a role to play in encouraging people to think more about the law and to look for more opportunities to engage with members of the public around its work.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I have listened to contributions to this debate with great interest. I would like to pay tribute to the committee for its work, and I'd like to thank Members for the report. Of course, as a former Chair of this committee, I have an understanding of its work, and I do acknowledge the comments made in the report on how challenging the remit of the committee is in terms of managing your workload and delivering against that workload.

Effective scrutiny by committees is extremely important in order to ensure good governance, and it is a crucial part of parliamentary democracy. The report, broadly speaking, separates into three sections, which consider the committee's work in scrutinising legislation, constitutional issues and, thirdly, justice. I will make my comments today based on similar sections.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm grateful for the committee's role in scrutinising primary and secondary legislation, particularly against the challenging context we have all been operating and continue to operate in since Brexit and the start of the pandemic. The committee has scrutinised an unprecedented volume of subordinate legislation. As the excellent report highlights, the committee has reported on 234 items of subordinate legislation during the 12-month period, compared to 111 items in the same period of the fifth Senedd. So, this represents a significant increase in the committee's work.

The report provides some useful examples of how the committee has taken forward its scrutiny of subordinate legislation, and I agree with the reference in the report that this demonstrates the important role the committee has and has developed in ensuring that subordinate legislation should be as clear and as accessible as possible. I also welcome the acknowledgement that the Welsh Government shares this goal.

Turning to Bills, as the First Minister set out in his latest statement on the legislative programme on 5 July, we are moving forward with an ambitious programme of primary legislation. We have introduced the first six Bills of this Senedd term and the committee has played a significant and fundamental role in those to date. I'd like to thank the committee and the Chair for their work on the first two Bills of this term that have been passed by the Senedd, namely the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Act and the Welsh Tax Acts etc. (Power to Modify) Act. The report refers to 40 recommendations that were made in relation to both of those Bills, and it draws out some of the overarching themes and issues in scrutinising the Bills to date. As we go forward with our legislative programme, we will reflect on those themes.

Now, the report mentions the committee's current work on two Bills that are currently making their way through the Senedd: the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill and the Historic Environment (Wales) Bill. I think the historic environment Bill is worth a particular mention, given that it is the first consolidation Bill and the committee is the lead scrutiny committee for it. The Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill and the Agriculture (Wales) Bill have also now been introduced to the Senedd. These are the first two Bills within year 2 of the legislative programme. These are outside the reporting period covered by the annual report, but I wanted to give my thanks to the committee, and the Senedd more generally, for their scrutiny of the single-use plastics Bill, given that it is proceeding on a fast-track timetable.

I'd like to turn now to the UK legislation, and I recognise the comments that have been made and I will try to address them, perhaps supplementing some of the points I wanted to make. Our fundamental position remains that legislation in devolved areas should be made in Wales. However, there continue to be circumstances where provisions in UK Bills can be sensible and advantageous, provided that this does not result in any transfer of powers or responsibility and always retains the constitutional ability of the Government and the Senedd to legislate at a time more suited to, and appropriate to, our priorities and the legislative programme. We are committed, as a Government, to ensuring that our involvement with UK Bills remains consistent with our principles and to ensuring that this Senedd is afforded as much scrutiny as possible through the legislative consent memorandum process.

It is extremely rare that we would proactively approach the UK Government to legislate on our behalf; on the contrary, there has been an unacceptable number of instances in recent years of the UK Government introducing devolved provision before Parliament, of which we have had no prior sight. This has been a recurring issue in the current UK Parliament's session. This lack of engagement with the UK Government and with the Welsh Government is a major obstacle to the effective operation of the current legislative consent process. I recognise that it is a part of the nature of the committee that it operates almost in a non-partisan way because of its function as a constitution and legislative committee, and that point is actually recognised. I think there is criticism of the UK Government, just as there are criticisms, as are appropriate, to be made, as part of the scrutiny process by the committee, and I think that shows the maturity of the way the committee has been developed within our parliamentary structure.

I welcome the committee’s conclusions on improvement to the legislative consent processes and hope we can continue to work collaboratively to further strengthen the Senedd’s ability to scrutinise legislation and collectively defend the devolution settlement. The UK Government’s repeated breaches of the Sewel convention are unacceptable and they display, I think, a lack of respect for this democratically elected institution and the people it represents. The First Minister and I expressed our deep concern at the inaugural meeting of the Interministerial Standing Committee in March and again at the meeting in June, and we called for the codification of the convention and the strengthening of reporting mechanisms to respective Parliaments. Since then, officials from all four Governments have been looking at the convention and principles for future working. Of course, the only way to conclusively protect the devolution settlement and safeguard the future of the United Kingdom is, in my view, to place the convention on a statutory and justiciable footing, and this is something that we continue to strongly pursue. As a Welsh Government, we will also do what we can to ensure that this legislature gets the opportunity to properly scrutinise UK legislation that engages the Sewel convention and requires our consent.

But late engagement from UK Government can bring extreme time pressures to this. The emergency energy Bill was a case in point. Early and effective engagement between the Welsh Government and the UK Government is essential in all areas of policy, but where the UK Government is going to propose legislation, this is absolutely vital. These are not small matters, and the UK Government must recognise the legitimate and sometimes time-consuming detailed analysis that the Welsh Government and this institution must undertake. It is also fair to say that inter-governmental relationships have not been strong over the last few months. The instability within UK Government has prevented full meaningful engagement and progress in many areas. But we now have a new Prime Minister and a new Cabinet. We are committed to building positive working relationships where we can, and now is the moment to reset those relationships and take a fresh look together at the challenging issues, including the cost-of-living crisis. For that, we need genuine, open engagement. The mechanisms agreed as part of the review of inter-governmental relations can take us some way, and I know that the committee has been monitoring how those mechanisms are actually working on the ground. So, it is clearly vital that we work to embed the new structures, but inter-governmental relations go beyond set-piece meetings and cannot be measured solely by the number of meetings that take place. So, all Governments must adhere to the spirit as well as the letter of the inter-governmental review.

I call now on Huw Irranca-Davies, the Chair, to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd, and in my short response here, can I just first of all thank the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution for the serious, thoughtful and considered way in which he's responded to this debate, and it typifies his approach to the broad remit of the work of this committee? We really welcome that. And on that basis, can I first of all turn to the comments from current and former members of this committee? Comment was made by Peter Fox that people on this committee have parked their political allegiances outside the door, and they come in and they look at the evidence, and they look at what needs to be done to have effective scrutiny. And that has been the hallmark of this committee, himself included. But in turning to the remarks by James, you've also typified this response as well, and your challenge that we all put to the UK Government for the sake of the UK to actually engage early and engage meaningfully, to assist not only Welsh Government but actually to assist this Senedd, particularly in legislation that's emanating from the UK. It was a point very well made, and it was great to hear you say once again that primary idea, the primary principle of Welsh law for Welsh people, made here, scrutinised here is what we're trying to do by default.

Alun, I very much welcome your contribution and the comment that you made about impacting on the Sewel convention, this sledgehammer approach that's being taken where there is non-consent after non-consent after non-consent. At what point—the question has been raised not just by us but the House of Lords committee and House of Commons committee—does Sewel actually break, or how do we codify it in a way and strengthen it, as the Counsel General was saying, that actually makes it matter for these modern times? And the transparency on inter-governmental and inter-parliamentary scrutiny is going to become increasingly important, and the work that the committee has been doing on engaging on an inter-parliamentary level to actually hold to account the inter-governmental machinery that's now put in place, it holds real potential, I think.

Can I also thank Peter for your contribution and for your thanks that you made to the outstanding secretariat that we do have? They're a small team but they are genuinely exemplary. And also, the focus you had on the better inter-governmental work, and for the good again of making the UK, as it currently is, work better, and it's not simply to do with words such as 'respect'; it's actually mechanisms we put in place and the transparency we put in place around it. So, thank you, Peter, for your contribution to the committee.

And it would be remiss of me, Llywydd, not to mention two other contributors to the work of this committee over the last year and the period this reports as well. Rhys ab Owen, thanks for his contribution to the committee on all matters, but especially, I have to say, with his specialism on justice matters as well. And also, we shouldn't forget, as well, Jayne Bryant for her work early on.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed.

The next item will be the Plaid Cymru debate on the global impact of domestic consumption, and I call on Delyth Jewell to move the motion.

Diolch, Llywydd. This debate is about the responsibility we hold for the actions we take and the reverberations of that responsibility as they stretch and swell across the globe. It is a debate about the impact of our actions, the consequences that our consumption habits have on people and places on the other side of our planet, and it is a debate about choices—the choices we all have, whether we're aware of them or not, to do things differently—and the choices that Governments have to empower their citizens to make those choices wisely. I use the word 'wisely' because George Bernard Shaw said,

'We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future.'

It's that future that I'd like us all, in this debate, to keep at the front and centre of our thoughts, because wisdom can only truly percolate through when we are learning not just from something but for that future. So, what responsibility does Wales hold? The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires Wales to establish itself as a globally responsible nation. That means that, as well as taking actions here in Wales that will help people's lives in our nation, we need to be mindful of how our supply chains entangle and strangle other nations, how the choices we make about the things we eat and wear and invest in, how all of these things, have ripple effects that swell and grow into a tidal wave of waste, of ruin, of trauma in other parts of our world. We may not see their effects, but that does not make them any less real or terrible in its truest sense.

There is a sickness in our society—the sickness of indifference, the comfortable contempt we show towards that which is out of our line of sight. Each of us like to think that we do our thing, that we do our own best things for the planet, but how many of us use soap or cosmetics made with palm oil? How many of the desserts we eat contain cocoa that's not fair trade or ethically sourced? How much of the livestock feed we use for animals is leading to the extinction of other species of animals in other parts of the world, like the northern tiger, wildcats in South America, orangutans in Sumatra? Our everyday choices, insignificant as they may seem in isolation, set events in motion and they blow open the quietly catastrophic effects felt by that insidious sense of 'out of sight, out of mind'.

Llywydd, we cannot stay blind to these effects any longer. I'll set out some of the starkest statistics, and much of this comes from the fantastic 'Wales and Global Responsibility' report, commissioned by Size of Wales, WWF Cymru and RSPB Cymru. Their findings include that an area equivalent to 40 per cent of Wales's land mass, 823,000 hectares, was used overseas to grow Welsh imports of cocoa, palm, beef, leather, natural rubber, soy, timber, pulp and paper in an average year between 2011 and 2018. Much of this land—30 per cent of it—is in countries at high or very high risk of deforestation, species extinction or social issues like child labour and abuse of indigenous people's rights. The process of converting this land overseas and destroying those habitats results in 1.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide every year—the equivalent of 4 per cent of Wales's total domestic and imported goods carbon footprint.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move amendment 1.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to Plaid Cymru and Delyth Jewell for bringing forward this really important and serious debate. We know that COVID-19 highlighted serious weaknesses that already existed in our food system. While some dairy farmers were pouring milk down the drain, we had many empty supermarket shelves, even in the dairy section. However, the pandemic started a brilliant buy local food momentum: instead of travelling to big supermarkets, many residents across Wales have turned to their local village farm shops and butchers. There's absolutely no better way to support farmers and Welsh produce than us, the people of Wales, buying Welsh.

As the amendment in the name of Darren Millar shows, I would like to see the development of a local food charter, which all shops, cafes, restaurants and bars selling food local to the area could sign up to, helping consumers to know which businesses are actually not only stocking local food, but supporting local food producers. It would be a simple system, like the food hygiene rating score on the door. It would empower customers to know whether the business they are about to enter procures local Welsh produce.

At the end of the day, we need to act more responsibly, because it is estimated that, if the world consumed the same amount as the average Welsh citizen, 2.5 planets' worth of resources would be required. Plaid Cymru, you are quite correct that the future generations Act requires Wales to establish itself as a global, responsible nation. Ask yourselves, Members: are we acting as a globally responsible nation if an area equivalent to 40 per cent of the size of Wales is required overseas to grow Welsh imports of cocoa, palm oil, beef, leather, natural rubber, soy, timber, pulp and paper in an average year? Thirty per cent of the land used to grow Welsh imports of commodities is in countries categorised high or very high risk of social and deforestation issues. The greenhouse gas emissions associated with the conversion of natural ecosystems and changes in land cover for the production of Welsh imports of soy, cocoa, palm and natural rubber total 1.5 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent each year. So, to put this into perspective, Welsh timber imports use a land area two and a half times the size of Ynys Môn, Anglesey; Welsh palm imports use a land area greater than Wrexham county; Welsh soy imports use a land area greater than the size of Monmouthshire; and Welsh paper and pulp imports use a land area the size of Ceredigion.

What we have is a perfect storm. Whilst Welsh Government and, in some instances, now supported by Plaid Cymru—. Some agricultural policies, such as the Wales-wide water regulations and 10 per cent tree-planting requirements, will drive down some food production in Wales. It also makes us more reliant on imports. Already, Welsh beef imports use a land area the size of the Brecon Beacons. A globally responsible Wales cannot pursue policies that unnecessarily cause an increase in reliance on goods from around the world that is destroying our planet. The Welsh Government should account for and report on the significant greenhouse gas emissions caused by Wales overseas.

I thank Delyth for moving the motion. Now, for such rural country, it seems strange that we, as a nation, import agricultural commodities and forestry products from countries all over the globe, but that's the truth, of course. From fertiliser to feed to construction timber and much more, a large number of these commodities are produced in other countries. And each of these countries has different levels of risk when it comes to deforestation or social risks, such as child labour or forced labour. Indeed, the footprint of Welsh imports from abroad is equivalent to 823,000 hectares.

It was Martin Luther King Jr. who said, 'Before you finish eating breakfast in the morning, you've depended on half the world.' Our daily actions, the decisions we take, and the way we decide to spend our money have far-reaching consequences for other countries and people across the globe, as Delyth mentioned at the top of this debate. Estimates show that we would need over 1.7 Earths to keep up with our current level of growth and consumption.

Let's look at some commodities that link our agricultural sector to the wider world. Firstly, soy. We import just shy of 200,000 tonnes of soy every year. For this soy to grow, it uses up nearly 95,000 hectares of land. That's equivalent to an area larger than Monmouthshire, as Janet referred to. As we heard from Janet, soy is mostly imported into Wales in the form of meal and beans for livestock, with the Welsh poultry industry driving almost half of our soy feed consumption. But what we didn't hear was that nearly three quarters of the soy import-land footprint falls in countries that are at high or very high risk of deforestation and/or social issues, including Paraguay, Brazil, and Argentina.

Now let's look at timber. In an average year, we import 768,000 cu m of wood raw material equivalent. Timber accounts for the largest land footprint of Welsh commodity imports. The average land area required each year to answer the Welsh demand for timber is 184,000 hectares. This is an area, as we heard, equivalent to two and a half times the size of Ynys Môn. The Welsh Government has laudable aims for tree planting, but compared to the trees felled to answer our consumption needs, those ambitions will barely make a dent. A fifth of the timber import-land footprint falls in countries that are at high risk for deforestation and/or social issues, including Brazil, Russia and China. Our timber consumption is actively driving the destruction of habitats, of native culture, and of the world's lungs.

So, what should be done? Well, as Saint David said, we should do the little things. In order to reduce our dependence on imports that are driving climate change and the nature emergency, we must ensure that our supply chains are local, and in order to do that we need to develop a solid local food strategy.

There are many examples of successful community food initiatives, and at a time when we are living in a cost-of-living crisis, with thousands dependent on foodbanks and with climate change happening before our very eyes, then we must develop a strategy that works not only for us, but for our brothers and sisters across the world.

Consider the great work that's being done by Y Dref Werdd in Blaenau Ffestiniog, which is working on a local food growing project, and is collaborating with the Llandrillo Menai Group to hold cooking sessions, teaching people how to prepare nutritious food. Antur Aelhaearn in Llanaelhaearn has also been developing similar projects, and if you had gone there a few months ago, you would have been able to enjoy a feast of vegetables from the community garden. There are similar examples across the country, but we need to support them and enable others to emulate them.

There is enormous potential here for growing food locally. That's why we're calling here today for the development of a more self-sustaining food system, ensuring that sustainable products are being developed in every community, and that we are not overly dependent on importing materials.

This would mean reversing the losses we have seen in the ability to process food locally; driving the local supply chain forward; prioritising imports of only sustainable materials from abroad; and helping to solve the problems of malnutrition and poverty that are endemic in some communities. Thank you.

I thank Plaid for this motion, to coincide with COP27, and also for the passion with which Delyth Jewell introduced the debate. I also want to pay tribute to the excellent and blessedly short report by Shea Buckland-Jones on behalf of WWF, which really does summarise exactly how we are not taking account of our global responsibilities and our need not to continue exploiting countries of the global south, with all the unacceptable consequences of impoverishing local communities who cannot afford to feed themselves, ironically, whilst continuing to grow nice-to-have commodities for us in the global north.

So, it isn't just in relation to our carbon emissions, it's also in relation to our food that we need to have a just transition, so that we are supporting the poorest in the world and living much more lightly on this earth, changing our food habits and equally eating—I agree completely with Mabon—locally grown seasonal food instead of relying on food from abroad. We have to be mindful, however, that we shouldn't do this too abruptly, because some people are relying on selling us food from abroad in order to earn a living, but we have to have transitional arrangements to enable them to grow more of their own food and enrich their diet whilst we import only food that we see as luxuries, rather than relying on it.

We have seen all too often these days that relying on just-in-time food imports—their days are numbered, in any case. The combination of Brexit, the climate emergency and increasing tensions and conflicts between and within different countries means that food security issues are staring us in the face. In any case, fresh food, produced locally, tastes better and is more nutritious than food that has been prematurely picked and sprayed with wax or chemicals in order to make it look good once it has been transported across the world. So, we really do need to focus on growing food locally.

We are committed to delivering net zero as Wales's contribution to averting the global climate disaster, and that requires huge changes for all of us. And reducing our carbon emissions from food is something we can all play our part in, because whilst it's our job to scrutinise Welsh Government on how quickly Wales can decarbonise its industry, its transport emissions and public buildings, that is not something that ordinary householders are going to be able to influence. Where they can make a real contribution is in what we eat, because I learned recently, and it was a really important message, that it's not vehicle use, it's not home heating, not even holiday flights that are at the top of the list of carbon emissions in individual homes; according to research for the Brecon Beacons National Park, it's household carbon emissions from food and drink that generate more than twice the carbon emissions we create from holiday travel.

Wales has a long history of internationalism. Solidarity movements have existed for generations, with communities as far afield as Somaliland, as we know from Wales's coal-trading history and long-settled diaspora; Lesotho, through Dolen Cymru, founded in 1982, which after all was the world's first nation-to-nation twinning; and Uganda, where several charities have worked over four decades.

Let's take the Wales for Africa programme as a prime example. The programme connects professionals in health, education and the environmental sectors and diaspora in Wales and Africa, and harnesses the power of community-based collaborative civil society links. Rather than professional agencies or staff in country offices, projects take place through volunteers in direct contact with in-country local partners, in domains such as health, education, climate change and water. Wales for Africa catalyses huge amounts of community work here in Wales, raising awareness and funds at a local level, and Welsh Government funding of course has supported this through capacity building; the co-ordination of Wales’s fair trade movement, with Wales becoming the world's first Fairtrade Nation in 2008; efforts to mitigate climate change, including the Size of Wales project to help protect an area of rainforest the size of Wales; and volunteer placements for professionals.

So, we do understand here in Wales the benefits of working collaboratively at the international level to help our fellow people abroad, but with the contributions of my fellow Members in mind, can we really, honestly, hand on heart, state that we're making a net positive contribution to the world, when our consumption at the domestic level is actively driving climate change, biodiversity decline and the loss of culture? How can we simultaneously preach for sustainability and cultural preservation here in Wales while contributing to what amounts to cultural and environmental genocide in lands afar?

Let's look again to another case study—one championed by the Size of Wales—the cause of the Guarani people. The Guarani are one of the largest groups of indigenous people in Latin America, and their ancestral territory sits in the Atlantic forest in Brazil, only 7 per cent of which remains intact. The Atlantic forest still holds about 5 per cent of the world's biodiversity, and it provides water to around 67 per cent of the Brazilian population. They nourish, protect and respect the land, plants, animals and insects, regarding their lives as equal, and they never seek to gain dominion and power over nature or exploit it. Despite the forest suffering huge levels of deforestation, vegetation cover within legally recognised Guarani land stands at nearly 100 per cent, exemplifying the fact that indigenous peoples are the best guardians of the world’s forests.

I thank Plaid for bringing forward this debate. It's certainly a very interesting and certainly very important motion, and I welcome the opportunity to discuss an issue that perhaps gets overlooked when we discuss climate change, and that's how our consumption here in Wales affects people and communities from across the world as well as hindering efforts to combat climate change. Such issues have been raised during the development of my food Bill and have helped to inform some of the provisions within it. Presiding Officer, I won't share too much about my Bill at the moment—I'm sure Members across the Chamber are highly anticipating its introduction into the Chamber next month—but the Bill will look at placing the impact of the Welsh food system on our environment as well as on the global environment at the heart of the decision-making process through the establishment of food goals.

Now, of course, as Delyth points out, global responsibility is one of seven well-being goals set out in the well-being of future generations Act. There is an expectation that public bodies should already take into account the impact of their decisions on the wider world. But as the motion rightly states, more can be done, indeed must be done, to better account for this. And, yes, we are part of a global system of production and consumption, but we have an opportunity to be a leader here in Wales. This is why my future Bill will look to strengthen the governance around the food system further, as one element of increasing accountability within the wider system, meaning we are able to focus more on establishing what the impact of our consumption is and how to mitigate this. I listened with great interest to the leader of Plaid Cymru yesterday in his question to the leader of the house about the need for a food commission. However, Presiding Officer, we will have more opportunity to talk about this, but I'm sure that Plaid will see that many of the points raised in point 2(c) of its motion interact with my Bill.

So, what else can we do to reduce environmental impacts of our consumption? The motion lists some interesting points, such as supporting the agricultural sector to source feed that is more environmentally friendly and does not contribute to deforestation. At this point, I will, of course, refer Members to my register of interests as a farmer. We also need to look at localising food supply chains, which has already been mentioned, and identify opportunities to produce more of what we eat and then helping public bodies to source this produce. I'm interested to know how the Government's public procurement Bill will enable local authorities to build the capacity to source more local produce and to provide opportunities for local producers to get involved with local procurement.

Unfortunately for you all, I'm not Luke Fletcher, as described by Delyth, but I do want to explore the economic contract. Through the economic contract, businesses must demonstrate current action in areas such as economic strength and adaptability, fair work, the promotion of well-being and becoming low carbon and climate resilient. Ideally, the economic contract would help see a Wales where organisations are resilient and adapt to changing economic and market conditions, and where they are ready to grow sustainably. Furthermore, we should see that workers are fairly rewarded, heard and represented, secure and able to progress in a healthy, inclusive environment where rights are respected. In this regard, a safe working environment where legal rights are protected would be essential to deliver the goals of the economic contract.

The agreement also rests upon the commitment that businesses must take proactive action to ensure a healthier workforce where physical and mental well-being is maximised, while creating cohesive communities that are attractive, viable, safe and well connected. Furthermore, it requires businesses to promote and protect our vibrant culture, heritage and Welsh language. But, as we've heard, Wales imports agricultural and forest commodities from many countries around the world, many of which cause social risks. We've distanced ourselves from the production process, so we don't always see the impact on businesses that our procurement policies are having. Commodity supply chains supplying Wales in these countries risk child or forced labour, modern slavery and the destruction of vital ecosystems. For this, we ought to hang our heads in shame. How can we claim to want to maximise mental and physical well-being while we drive exploitative labour practices? In what sense are rights respected when children are forced to work so we can have our morning coffee? Are we promoting cohesive communities that are attractive, viable, safe and well connected while we are complicit in destroying acres and acres and acres of forests? The Welsh Government must play its part in ensuring that businesses review their procurement policy and ensure that it includes fair and ethical practices. They should see that organisations review and develop their food policies and procurement contracts to increase product range to include fair, ethical and sustainable fruit juice, snacks and other food, where possible, and include palm-oil-free or sustainable-palm-oil food contracts to ensure that natural habitats are being maintained, as highlighted by Fair Trade Wales.

So, to conclude, the Government need to strengthen the economic contract to require signatories to commit to supply chains that are free from deforestation, conversion and social exploitation. It would be hypocritical of the Government to seek to guarantee fair working practices and sustainable business growth at home while actively contributing to slavery, horrendous working environments and environmental degradation abroad. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you to Plaid Cymru for bringing this debate forward, and thank you to Delyth for opening the debate.

I just want to focus very briefly on one aspect. There's just so much in this, isn't there, and it's so important that we look at this issue. But I just wanted to look at food and farming. The debate that we're having is so important in the light of the development of the agricultural Bill for Wales, at the heart of which we want to see sustainable food production. We're pleased to see that food production is now included as part of the Bill, but still there's some lack of clarity about whether farmers will receive the basic payment for sustainable food production, and it would be great to hear from the Minister and the Government about any intentions around that. We do know that the Welsh Government is serious about reaching their net-zero ambitions, and we should be talking much more about reducing food imports, which we've heard this afternoon, particularly those that carry the highest carbon content. Therefore, we must grow as much as possible of our own food sustainably here in Wales. We need to be invigorating local food networks, and farmers need to be supported to produce food sustainably for local food markets. When I speak to farmers in mid and west Wales, that's their ambition too. They see their role as farmers both as custodians of the land, aware and concerned about the environment, and as food producers. So, I know we all want to work with farmers to realise that ambition of more food produced and consumed here in Wales. As Delyth said, since 2016, the Welsh food and agricultural industry have suffered the impacts of three major challenges: Brexit, COVID-19 and now the cost-of-living crisis. We want to see a bold and radical plan for the Welsh food and agricultural industries from the Welsh Government to make sure that the sector survives and thrives.

It's very important as well about food security, which will be a major challenge, particularly with the Ukraine war. We need to make sure that we shield people—residents and our workers—from that food insecurity, and we need to be reducing our food waste. The Nature Friendly Farming Network estimates that, globally, 30 per cent of total food produced is wasted, and that, in the United Kingdom, food waste amounts to a staggering 9.5 million tonnes, 70 per cent of which is edible and intended for consumption. I've seen in my region communities working together to reduce that food waste through, for example, community fridges. The Hanging Gardens in Llanidloes is one example of those. I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh Government more about what they can do to support the reduction in food waste.

The Farmers Union of Wales for some time have been calling for local food sourcing, and the more the public sector can do to nudge behaviour in the right direction, the better. I hope we are ensuring, for example, that the free-school-meals programme uses as much locally produced and sourced food as possible. Whilst I recognise that it's ultimately local authorities that make their own decisions regarding procurement, I'd be interested to hear from the Welsh Government how to make that potentially a condition of the scheme, so that we properly fund that to use Welsh produce wherever possible.

Thank you, once again, to Plaid Cymru; it's a very important debate. Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I want to thank Plaid Cymru for raising this debate today, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to it. The Government will be supporting the motion. I would argue that as a globally responsible nation, we, in fact, go quite a bit further than the motion. We clearly support the ambitions reflected in the motion, but the real challenge is in practical implementation, including accepting the need to prioritise, to be consistent in applying our principles and to work in social partnership with businesses and trade unions that find themselves needing to make major changes to their ways of working.

We are very proud of the work we have already been doing to reduce our impact on the planet. Our decision to withdraw support from exporters in fossil fuel overseas and refocus efforts towards new international opportunities in the low carbon and renewable energy sectors is one of many positive steps we have already taken to meet the 'globally responsible Wales' goal. To meet this particular goal of the well-being of future generations Act, we must ensure we take into account the impact of all of our policies in Wales at a global scale. Our work on biodiversity shows clear commitment to this goal, with the Welsh Government fully engaged in COP15 and a key partner in developing a new global biodiversity framework. The recent biodiversity deep-dive has focused on Wales's approach to implementing the target set by the Convention on Biological Diversity to protect at least 30 per cent of the land and 30 per cent of the sea by 2030. Recommendations have been published to support meaningful delivery of the 30x30 goal and immediate actions are being taken forward.

To turn to the second part of the motion, we're in the process of recalculating our own global footprint, which is being taken forward by the Joint Nature Conservation Committee. This work will include the development of a global ecological footprint for Wales and improving our understanding of alignment between the different consumption-based metrics available, particularly in terms of carbon. We will also publish an estimate of Wales's consumption-emissions footprint, both within the UK and abroad.

Our programme for government outlines the need to take action and embed our response to the joint crises in all that we do. Our economic contract supports our vision for a well-being economy that is green, prosperous and equal. We are going further by developing a series of standards, and businesses in Wales are already encouraged to adopt the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains. The economic contract will, indeed, continue to be a key element in our pursuit of social value, driving social change and global responsibility in our economy.

I very much welcome the introduction of the horticulture development and entry-level grants, but at the moment we only produce a quarter of a portion per person per day of fruit and veg, so that is a very long road to travel. How can you accelerate the change that we need in order to have much more of our fruit and veg, which is supposed to be a third of our diet, made in Wales?

Thank you. I completely agree. I will not have time to go through all of the detail of that, but pockets of innovation do show what is possible for wholesalers and civil society organisations working with local producers and growers to help develop fresh, healthy dishes for schools.

Minister, I don't know if you saw the request for an intervention from the leader of the opposition as well.

I did not, sorry. Go ahead.

Thank you, Minister. Everyone's supportive of the sentiment today, but you touched on two areas there where you want to increase local procurement—milk and red meat. It is a fact that the processing sectors in both those areas are very limited in Wales. In fact, most of our milk is processed in English dairies. How is the Government going to halt the decline and actually increase investment in processing capacity to meet the sentiment that has been expressed broadly this afternoon?

Yes, absolutely, Andrew. I will not have time to go through every single policy that's been mentioned in a very broad motion, but I completely accept the point. One of the big issues for us is to make sure that we extract all of the value from our food supply chain, and in doing so, we help the processors to come to Wales and make use of that product. But apologies—the Deputy Presiding Officer is about to tell me I'm running out of time and I'm yet to get through another half of my speech.

I'll give you a bit more time because of the interventions.

I might need a little bit more than a bit more.

The sustainable farming scheme proposals contain a raft of actions designed to support farmers in the ongoing sustainable production of food alongside addressing the climate and nature emergencies. Sustainable farming is indeed the key to our future. We already have world-leading standards of sustainability within our red meat sector through our pasture-based methods of production, and in response to the shortfall in domestically produced protein for animal feed, the Growing for the Environment scheme will be a pilot to encourage the growing of crops and pastures that provide environmental benefits, such as protein crops. We do, of course, need to ensure that our farmers play their part in combating both the climate and the nature emergencies too, and in doing so, we need to encourage them to get the best out of their crops. So, that's partly in answer to that, Andrew—I was coming on to it. I haven't got time to go into it in enough depth—apologies.

Through our Wales and Africa programme, we have been able to demonstrate our commitment to being a globally responsible nation by supporting a number of tree-growing projects in sub-Saharan Africa. We know that by protecting and planting trees, be it in Wales or further afield, we can make a significant contribution to the fight against catastrophic climate change and deforestation. There are global concerns, which is why the Welsh Government provides support to Size of Wales and other Welsh organisations with campaigns and projects being delivered in Africa, working in partnership with a number of countries on their tree-growing initiatives. Foremost amongst these is the Mbale tree programme in eastern Uganda, where our partners have now distributed over 20 million trees, working towards a target of 50 million by 2030.

To conclude today, turning to trade as part of our responsibility to act as a globally responsible nation, we've been clear with the UK Government that no trade agreement should ever undermine our economic domestic policies. In Wales, we do not view trade deals in purely economic terms. Elements of trade deals that could advance protections around labour and the environment, including deforestation, are treated as one of our main priorities. Whilst we have the power to make representations to the UK Government during trade negotiations—and we do so frequently—the power to negotiate the trade deals themselves ultimately lies with the UK Government. We do not have the final say on deals, but we continue to push the UK Government hard to ensure that trade deals contain provisions that work in both the interests of Wales and in the interests of Wales as a globally responsible nation. Diolch.

I call on Delyth Jewell to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to everyone who's participated in this valuable and important debate this evening.

This was an incredibly timely debate. WWF have brought out a report today that warned that deforestation in the Amazon is accelerating to the point of no return, so I really do welcome everyone's enthusiasm for this debate.

Janet, you helped us to visualise on the map of Wales the impact of our consumption habits. I'm happy to confirm that we would support the Conservative amendment. Thank you for your contribution.

Thank you, Mabon. That Martin Luther King quote says it all, and thank you for setting out how the agricultural sector can be part of the solution to this situation.

Thank you, Jenny, for setting out the contrast between the 'nice to have' habits that we have and the threat to life itself in many places, and talking about the changes we all need to make through our diets.

Heledd's contribution, I think, was really important in contextualising this in the context of global solidarity, talking about the Guarani people and the cultures at risk because of our indifference. What could be lost will not come back, and the world would be so much the poorer for it.

Peter Fox's comments about his legislation were very interesting, very timely, and I'm sure that we'll all really look forward to reading more about that. I agree with your point, Peter, about the labelling. It is a reserved matter to Westminster, and I really do echo what the Minister was saying and what you as well, Peter, were saying: this is something that really needs to be looked at. We need to empower people to make the right decisions.

Diolch, Pred. My apologies for mixing up Peredur with Luke; it's because of the beards. But seriously and sincerely, thank you for setting out what businesses can and must do in the context of all of this.

Diolch, Jane, for your comments about food waste. That is a really horrifying statistic about 30 per cent of food being wasted, particularly considering how much you said is actually still edible.

Thank you, Minister, for your remarks setting out the challenges inherent in doing the right thing. I'm very glad that you're supporting the motion, but, again, I would echo what you were saying about the labelling. This is something where Governments really need to empower people, because there are so many things where everyone wants to do the right thing; it's just making it the easiest way possible for that to happen.

Before we vote on this really important motion, I'd like to just share a few final thoughts with Members. Yesterday, I hosted a youth COP event in the Pierhead. It was organised by Size of Wales, and in the meeting, a room of schoolchildren was addressed by George Sikoyo from the Mount Elgon Tree Growing Enterprise in Mbale, Uganda. George was talking to the children and those of us politicians who were lucky to be in the room about the millions of trees planted in Uganda on behalf of Welsh citizens. He talked about the global problems that we face and how we can help mankind through showing solidarity and friendship. He told those children, 'We are in the same village called Mother Earth.' I hope we can all reflect on George's words. If we can grow trees in other parts of the planet, we shouldn't at the same time be allowing ourselves to contribute directly to trees being cut down and forests being destroyed in another part of that same planet. Our conscience should not allow that dissonance to continue.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes; I will, therefore, defer voting until voting time.

That brings us to voting time. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will move immediately to voting.

The first vote this evening is on item 8, and I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If the proposal is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 49, no abstentions and none against; therefore, the motion is agreed.

We now move to the short debate. I call on Heledd Fychan to speak to the topic that she has chosen—Heledd Fychan.

Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I’d like to thank those of you who will be staying for today's debate. I’d like to confirm that I have given a minute of my time to—

Would the Members leaving do so quietly so that everybody can hear Heledd Fychan's contribution?

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to confirm that I have given a minute of my time to Sioned Williams today.

Every day, around the world, it is estimated that 300 million people bleed due to menstruation. It's a completely normal act—as normal as going to the bathroom—but for far too long, talking about periods has been taboo. Indeed, despite the fact that there has been more open discussion about periods over recent years, it remains something that many people are uncomfortable discussing, and, as such, something that many women and people who have periods feel ashamed of.

This is for a variety of reasons, such as a lack of education regarding periods; a lack of access to water infrastructure, sanitation and hygiene; and above all, a lack of access to appropriate period products. Being able to manage your periods safely, and with confidence and dignity, is crucial not only for health and education, but also for economic development and general equality. Unfortunately, however, even here in Wales in 2022, this is not a right that everyone has, and we have a problem in terms of period poverty.

At the outset, I would like to acknowledge the work undertaken by the Welsh Government in this regard, including the period dignity strategic action plan and the investment that has been made over recent years in ensuring that more products are available free of charge to those who need them in Wales. I fully support the vision and objectives of the plan, and I welcome the clear and unambiguous statements that the Government has made in this regard. I do not doubt in any way the commitment of the Government or the Minister, and I know that the work in the plan is progressing.

The purpose of this debate, therefore, is to ask the Minister and the Government to go one step further and to make this a commitment that is protected by law, by introducing a specific period products law, such as the one that came into force in Scotland in August this year. I will therefore focus on why I believe that there is a need for this, and I will draw attention to the fact that, despite the Government's commendable work in this area, period poverty remains a problem here in Wales today, and an issue that continues to require attention and action.

I’m ashamed to admit that period poverty isn’t something I’d been very aware of prior to becoming a councillor in 2017. It was an issue that was raised by my then fellow Plaid Cymru councillor on Rhondda Cynon Taf council, Elyn Stephens, when she asked us as a group to support a notice of motion that she wanted to submit, urging the council to look into providing free sanitary products in all secondary schools in the county borough, as an acknowledgment that they are as essential as toilet paper for the personal hygiene of female pupils. She spoke openly and bravely about her own experience of not being able to afford products, and what this had meant in terms of her own dignity. She also shared how this also impacted on her, and others she knew, not being able to attend school when they were menstruating, therefore also missing out on education just because of a normal bodily function.

I was a member of the working group set up to look into this issue, and as part of this work, we asked for evidence via a survey from teachers and also from female pupils about the situation as they saw it then. Seven hundred and eighty-four female learners took part in the survey, and focus groups were also held between pupils and the working group to better understand directly what the issues were. They were very, very clear with us that period poverty was an issue, with one attendee stating, 'People miss school because of periods or leave school early if they have an accident or need sanitary products and don’t have them on them—it affects attendance.' This was a view supported by 64 per cent of headteachers, with this rising to 86 per cent of responses from reception staff and 75 per cent for school nurses. So, an acknowledgement that period poverty was having a direct impact on attendance.

Common issues were not knowing where to access free products even if they were available, or being made to feel too embarrassed to ask rather than being able to access them themselves. We also uncovered evidence that there was a huge amount of misinformation and misunderstanding amongst male teachers and young men about periods, with some thinking that you could choose when you bleed, a bit like choosing when you go to the toilet. This meant that girls were being denied permission to go the toilet, resulting in accidents even when they had products to hand, or not being able to access them because they were not allowed to take their bags to the toilet with them.

I’m glad to say that this did lead to a policy change in RCT, and was a contributing factor, I believe, alongside other similar campaigns at the time, that led to Welsh Government committing resources to address the issue too. We have come a long way since then, but though there has been progress, there is more to do, and it’s important that we keep talking about and normalising periods so that progress isn’t lost. And there are many people doing just that.

Some of you may be wondering why there's a need to legislate on this issue, when we already have a positive action plan in place. Well, as we all know in this Senedd, legislation makes a strong statement that can have a more far-reaching effect on cultural practices and expectations. There are many examples where a legislative change has led to cultural changes that have affected people's everyday lives—issues such as the physical punishment of children, the disposal of plastic bags, wearing a seat belt in the car, and so forth. Setting standards about the way that we would like to live in legislation ensures a stronger, far-reaching message for the future, and it ensures that no-one will have to miss out or feel embarrassed about having a period and needing period products in the future.

So my plea to the Minister today is: please continue the great work that you are already doing, but please go that step further by also enshrining the right to free period products, wherever you are in Wales, in law. Action plans are great but can lose momentum when competing with other priorities. This is the only way to fully realise our shared ambition for ensuring period dignity for all. It is all of our responsibility—whether we have periods or not—to help eradicate period poverty. Diolch.

This isn't only an issue of gender equality, but it's also an issue of social justice. We know that the cost-of-living crisis is affecting women disproportionately, and, according to a recent YouGov survey, one in eight people say they'll struggle to afford period products over the next year. And of course, periods are not a choice, and, for many women, they're a challenge—it affects their health, education, and sometimes their entire lives. Plan International found that 49 per cent of girls have missed at least one full day of school or college due to their period. It's important to note that that statistic is a UK-wide statistic, not Wales-specific. We perhaps do need more data on this, in order to fully address the issues that we've heard about this afternoon. If periods are seen as taboo and not discussed, girls won't feel comfortable asking for period products, and therefore are more likely to stay off school. Free sanitary products in workplace bathrooms can have an impact in terms of reducing absenteeism, because people aren't having to find excuses to go and buy period products or stay home because of their anxiety around having to cope with their period in work. So, periods are normal and natural, they should be a part of everyday school life, work life, and social life, and they should not have a negative effect on your life, wherever you live in Wales.

I call on the Minister for Social Justice to reply to the debate. Jane Hutt.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Llywydd. And diolch, Heledd, for bringing forward this important topic for your short debate today. I recall debating period poverty probably about four or five years ago, with Jenny Rathbone, I think—a motion that we jointly promoted—and it was the first time that this had been debated in the devolved Welsh Parliament. It was a breakthrough at the time, that we were debating it, and it led to Government action. And also, thank you for recognising the work that the Welsh Government has done, over a number of years now, on financial initiatives to tackle period poverty, because eradicating period poverty means ensuring that having a period does not lead to missed education, absences from work, or withdrawal, indeed, from sports and social activities. As Sioned Williams has said, this is a matter of social justice.

So, since 2018, we have invested around £12 million to ensure that period products are freely available in schools and colleges across Wales, and in community settings. And during the COVID-19 pandemic, this was extended to allow local councils, local authorities, more flexibility to ensure that products were available for those who needed them, via a variety of means, including issuing vouchers in places in Wales where it was difficult to provide delivery or collection of products. And I recall asking how schools were going to get products, which we were obviously funding and providing, and then making sure that they were available, if not at the school, then in the community.

So thank you also, Heledd, for highlighting the important role of local elected members, including your colleague and yourself—and I recall hearing about that initiative in Rhondda Cynon Taf. And of course, all across Wales now, Members have engaged with this to make sure that the delivery of the products and the investment that we're making is well used. I think it's about working together to make sure that that provision is right. And over the years, we've talked to schools' councils, we've talked to boys as well as girls, we've come together with schools to openly challenge the ignorance and stigma that we've been discussing this afternoon, and, of course, that means engaging the whole school staff, not just the teachers, but the heads and the leadership and all who are engaged.

In the context, as you say, of the current cost-of-living crisis, the issue of period poverty is starker than ever. So, I am pleased to have increased the period dignity grant by £450,000 this year, to strengthen local authorities' response to the impact of the cost-of-living crisis. Our total period dignity grant for this financial year now totals over £3.7 million. Local authorities are working hard to ensure that, in addition to getting products in every school and college in Wales, they're available, as we all know, across a range of community venues, and this includes foodbanks and pantries, libraries, youth centres and community hubs. I'm pleased that every women's refuge in Wales has been offered funding to ensure they have period products available to support those fleeing domestic abuse. And we need to make sure free products are fully available and accessible in designated places and that people know about them and they're not locked away in machines that you have to pay for, as you said.

We're now developing a map of places in Wales where products are available, to give people control over seeking products and seeing where they are available near them. This will help eradicate barriers to access and promotes true period dignity. We've worked with local authorities to ensure the information is up to date and easily accessible, and you will be able to use the map's filters to identify different types of organisations that supply period products and find the place that is closest to you. Because ensuring that we get the products to reach those in need is critical to the success of the grant. We have commissioned an evaluation into the impact of the period dignity grant to understand how the current measures could be improved to ensure that it does reach vulnerable communities across Wales and also focuses support for those families who need access most to the projects funded through the grant. We're also asking local authorities to report against their spend twice a year instead of once a year, so that we can really closely monitor how the grant is distributed and make adjustments, if needed. We're processing this year's mid-year claims; we've seen promising work undertaken, including subscription services, where those in need can order products straight to their home address, in addition to ensuring that, in the case of emergency period products, they are available throughout the community. So, you can see from these examples that local authorities, who are at the delivery end, are actually learning how they can get the products to people as a result of engagement and learning through the delivery of the grant.

But we also have a chance to provide opportunities for a wider range of products, which have the added benefit of helping the environment. So, this year we've increased the requirement for local authorities to spend a percentage of their funding on reusable or plastic-free products from 50 per cent to 65 per cent. The initial cost of reusable products can of course be a barrier for some, and we want to give people an opportunity to try these products without being out of pocket. Reusable products may not be for everyone, and there's no pressure to switch to these products; it's about choice for the user, and they may choose to continue to use disposable products but opt for some that are plastic free instead, and these products can also contribute to the 65 per cent requirement. To support increasing knowledge and understanding of these projects, we've allowed up to 20 per cent of the grant allocated to local authorities to be used for the purposes of training or education within schools and communities for professionals, learners and community members, and any training and education must provide information about the opportunity to take home reusable period products. This, again, has come as a result of learning and feedback from local authorities that they need that training and education to engage, as I said, with the whole school staff and community.

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Heledd, for this debate. That brings today's proceedings to a close.