Plenary

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make the statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Can I call for a statement from the Minister for Health and Social Services, to provide an update to Members on the delivery of the north Denbighshire community hospital? This has been a long-awaited project that was announced by the current First Minister back in 2013. He said that he hoped a brand new hospital would be delivered by 2016 at that point, and, of course, we're going to be at least 10 years on from the now First Minister's announcement before we even see a spade in the ground, it would seem. Many people are concerned that this project is going to be quietly scrapped by the Welsh Government, and are concerned about the lack of commitment that appears to be the case from the current health Minister. I think that people need some clarity on this. They were promised these beds because of the closure of the community hospital beds in Prestatyn and Rhyl, and it has a direct impact on the services provided at Glan Clwyd Hospital, which has an emergency department that is under extreme pressure. Those beds are essential in order to relieve pressure on that hospital and make sure that it gets back up to scratch in terms of the way that it should be functioning for patients in north Wales. When will we have a statement, and when can we expect that hospital to be delivered, as was promised by the current First Minister?

There are no plans for a statement in the current half term in relation to the capital programme for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. I know the health board itself is having a look at its capital programme right across north Wales, so I would imagine that would be part of it.

Trefnydd, in the past few weeks, major concerns have been expressed about the safety of an Ebbw Vale hotel that is acting as a house in multiple occupation. A man was found dead at the Park Hotel in Waunlwyd, and another was arrested on suspicion of his murder. Local residents who were part of a subsequent public meeting to discuss their fears about the safety of the hotel say it's the third death reported at the hotel. Their fears are not unfounded, as I'm told two local authorities, Merthyr Tydfil and Blaenau Gwent, have now withdrawn their clients from the facility. The Labour leader of Blaenau Gwent council, Stephen Thomas, also said, and I quote:

'There needs to be rethink from Welsh Government on the issue as councils are struggling to provide wrap around services from existing, already pressurised budgets. There have been several severe failures here and in other settings, which have detrimental effects on both those accommodated and, importantly, on the local communities surrounding the facilities.'

From my work as a Senedd Member since last year, I'm aware that failures concerning HMO regulation and their proliferation has led to a concentration of such facilities, and at least one vulnerable person being housed in unsuitable accommodation with tragic results. Is it time to revisit the regulation and guidance? Because the status quo does seem to be failing communities and the vulnerable clients at HMOs. Can we therefore have a Government statement as a matter of urgency on this please?

It's certainly very sobering to hear the tragic circumstances that you describe. Of course, it is a matter for each local authority where and how many HMOs they have within their own boundaries. I'm not sure that what you describe would lead to the Minister making a statement on looking at the regulations again.

I would like to ask for two statements from the Government. The first one is on enterprise zones. There were eight enterprise zones created in Wales. The Finance Committee undertook an inquiry in 2013; there was a written update in March this year. I'm asking for an update on the planned future funding of enterprise zones.

The second statement I'm asking for is on orthopaedic waiting lists. In Swansea bay health board, there are plans for Neath Port Talbot Hospital to become a centre of excellence for orthopaedics, spinal care, diagnostics, rehabilitation and rheumatology. I would like a ministerial statement on whether the Minister sees this as a way forward across Wales.

Thank you. I will ask the Minister for Economy to bring forward a written statement on enterprise zones. In relation to orthopaedic services and waiting times, I think you will have heard both the First Minister and the Minister for Health and Social Services say that orthopaedic waiting times are not where we want them to be, like other waiting times. Significant additional funding has been given to reducing orthopaedic waiting times—I think it's over £170 million now, recurrently—to help address that backlog. We are now seeing waiting times reducing, but, as I say, not at the pace that we would want to. The health Minister did hold an orthopaedic summit back in August, to make sure that health boards were aware of what was needed to bring an improvement in this area of the health service. A national orthopaedic strategy has also been developed, and we're funding the development of an orthopaedic network.

Minister, there's huge concern in mid Wales with the proposals from the Welsh NHS's emergency medical retrieval and transfer service and the Wales Air Ambulance to move the base from Welshpool, which also includes the removal of a road vehicle. The service is greatly valued, it's absolutely necessary, and it's difficult to see how the removal of this service and base will lead to a better outcome for people in mid Wales who need to get to urgent treatment quickly. I questioned the First Minister on this on 20 September in the Chamber, and I asked him if he would ensure that the data the proposals are based on are published. I did so because there's doubt about that data. The First Minister answered, and I quote from the Record of Proceedings:

'I have seen figures that come from the work that has been carried out, but they are not figures that belong to the Welsh Government; they belong to the air ambulance charity itself.'

The charity itself are quite clear the data does not belong to them, but it belongs to the service within the Welsh NHS. I would like to see the full data published, I'd like to see the modelling behind the data published as well, so they can be scrutinised. I wrote to the First Minister last month, and asked him if he would correct the record. I have not yet received a reply. I would be grateful, Minister, if you could facilitate a reply via the First Minister.

Can I also call for an urgent statement from the Welsh Government outlining the Welsh Government's involvement in the proposals? It is, of course, the Welsh Government that are responsible for health services and provision. We need to ensure we have the very best emergency provision. I don't believe that the removal of the base in Welshpool, and indeed Caernarfon, is going to lead to a better outcome for the people of Wales in terms of getting to urgent treatment as quickly as possible.

You asked for two areas to be looked at. I will certainly speak to the First Minister's office to ensure that you do get a response to the letter you wrote to him last month. In relation to the data, my understanding is the data isn't suitable for publication, because, if it was published, it could enable identification of individuals, and obviously that would be a matter of concern for many people. I think it also contains commercially sensitive information, and, clearly, that would be very difficult to interpret without context.

I want to ask for a statement and an action, if I may. Back in March, I raised the issue of a shortage of dentists in Dwyfor Meirionnydd with you. At that point, you said that you would ask the Minister for health to bring a statement forward on dentistry, and that that would be done within the half term following March, because the Minister was working on the issue. We're now in October, and, as far as I know, there's been no such statement made on the provision of dentistry. People's oral health in Dwyfor Meirionnydd is likely to decline unless there is an increase in provision. May I therefore ask as a matter of urgency for the Minister for health to bring forward a statement on the provision of dentistry, please?

Secondly, since coming back from the summer break, I've noticed that Government days, on Tuesdays, tend to finish early, and all we get is statements, with no votes at all. Considering that the Government claims that the legislative programme is full to the brim, I find this surprising. Will the Trefnydd therefore look at the Government programme, and ensure that the time that we have is used effectively, especially considering that the various crises that we face are on top of us right now as we speak? Thank you.

I can assure the Member I look very closely every week at Government business, and have conversations with my ministerial colleagues to make sure there is a full afternoon of business.

In relation to dentistry, I will certainly look at what I said to you in March, and, if there hasn't been a statement, I will ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to bring forward at least a written statement before half term.

Minister, back in 1913—I wasn't around then—when Maesteg Community Hospital first opened, it didn't have enough money to actually build it or run it, so the appeal went out, and the miners and their families in the Llynfi valley actually took weekly and monthly payments out of their salaries in order to pay for that hospital to get up and running. It is much loved; it's been at the centre of healthcare and well-being in the Llynfi and the Afan valleys ever since, and it's got a bright future, because the health board is looking at extending the services there, including the day services, to match the modern needs of that society. But—and here's where I'd welcome a statement—we know that there were good proposals to reopen the ward that's been closed, which was transferred under COVID to the Seren ward down in Bridgend, with an intention to bring it back, upgraded, more modern, with bigger space around the beds et cetera. But it hasn't happened, because, I understand, the cost overruns, with the rising costs now, have gone from £600,000 to well over £1 million, and there's a gap there that needs to be filled. Minister, could we have a statement on this? Because people want reassurance that there is a bright future for the hospital as an entirety, but also for this ward, because the staff themselves, who are also much loved, want to come back and be back in that ward looking after the people from the area.

Thank you. I think the Member describes a way that many of our public buildings were financed in the early part of the twentieth century. You refer to the plans that the hospital had, and, clearly, as you say, there's been now a massive increase in the cost of materials, for instance, and obviously labour as well. Rather than the Minister make a statement, I think it would be better for the health board to respond. Perhaps you could write to them and see what their response is.

The NHS is a great concern for all of us here, and you can see that. Minister, we all appreciate the challenges faced by our health service in responding to a range of pressures. People are unable to have treatment or surgery quickly enough; patients well enough to leave hospital are not able to go home quickly enough; and some people are ending up in hospital with conditions that could be managed at home. I welcome the investment at Neath Port Talbot hospital, as Mike Hedges said, to increase the number of operating theatres with the aim of it becoming the health board's centre of excellence for orthopaedics and spinal surgery. There is a lot of work to do, and health boards should be supported in taking these key decisions quickly to address the growing crisis in the NHS. Can we have a statement from the health Minister setting out how our health service will tackle the range of pressures, how we will advance the integration of our services to become more seamless, and how we will address recruitment and retention of our doctors and nurses? Thank you.

You cover a range of challenges that face the NHS. Obviously, we don't want to see people in hospital for a minute longer than they need to be, and getting them home, where they can obviously improve and get better, is vitally important. There is work continually going on to make that more seamless. We know we've had issues around delayed transfers of care, for instance. Certainly over the winter months we normally see an increase in that, and there is a significant amount of work going into that ahead of the coming winter. I think the Minister does make statements around recruitment and around these issues on an ongoing basis during her questions and the many statements she does in this Chamber.

Good afternoon, Minister. This afternoon, at lunchtime, many people across the Senedd joined together to support the people in Iran, and I request a statement from the Government on the situation in Iran. You will know that there have been terrible situations in Iran, following the tragic death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini, and, then, 16-year-old Nika Shakarami. The protestors—women, schoolgirls—now joined by many others, are incredibly brave. And this afternoon, we heard from people from Iran themselves what we can do. I know we are limited in the Welsh Senedd in terms of our powers, but there are many things that they would like us to do. On behalf of the group that was on the Senedd steps, I've been asked to write a cross-party letter that will go to the First Minister and to you. But, we would appreciate a statement on the situation in Iran, particularly looking at what we can do here in Wales to ensure we support them and to ensure that the media hold their gaze on the terrible situation that there is. Thank you. Diolch.

Thank you. Jane Dodds certainly describes a very heartbreaking situation, and I pay tribute to everyone who gathered today to show their support. I know the First Minister will be very pleased to receive a letter from you, Jane. Our ambition here is to make Wales the safest place in the world to be a woman or a girl, and that of course extends to the promotion of rights of women globally. Nobody should be forced to wear or not to wear any item of clothing or any outer expressions of their faith. We've got a national strategy to tackle violence against women and girls and a plan to promote gender equality. These represent the values on which we stand in solidarity with the women of Iran.

Trefnydd, I'd be grateful for your advice in managing expectations around ministerial and Welsh Government correspondence. A constituent has contacted me after writing to the First Minister back in March 2021 because he didn't receive a response, despite speaking to several different officials from multiple departments. I wrote to the First Minister myself asking for my constituent to receive a response in June of this year, and now I too am waiting for a response to my correspondence, despite chasing for it. I'm sure you can appreciate that this is deeply frustrating for all involved and absolutely disrespectful too. Therefore, I'd be grateful for your guidance on this matter and a commitment that I will receive a response so I can actually pass it on to my constituent.

Secondly, Llywydd, and I refer Members to my register of interests for this item, can I ask for a statement from the health and social services Minister on escalation and intervention arrangements for health boards here in Wales, following the news last week that Hywel Dda University Health Board has been escalated to targeted intervention status for finance and planning and there will remain in enhanced monitoring for quality and performance? It's vital that Members have the opportunity to scrutinise the Minister on this important development, so I'd be grateful if time could be made for a statement on this crucial matter. Thank you.

Thank you. I will certainly ask the Minister for Health and Social Services to bring forward probably a written statement in relation to Hywel Dda, and I give you a personal commitment you will have a response from the First Minister that you can share with your constituent.

Further to the question raised by Jane Dodds last week, there's still concern from local rescue centres about the fate of dogs racing at the Valley stadium. The Valley's own database records show that, between 2018 and 2020, an average of 141 greyhounds finish racing at the track every year. Their racing career finishes at the age of four to five years, and, in the last month, 20 greyhounds were shown as becoming inactive. There's no formal record of where these dogs have gone or what their fate might be, and Valley stadium does not publish any information about what happens to these greyhounds. Please, could the Minister investigate this by writing to the owner of the stadium and then provide a statement as to what records are kept of the fate of the greyhounds leaving the track, what efforts are made to ensure that they are found suitable homes, and what relationship the track has with reputable organisations that can help them with rehoming of greyhounds in Wales, such as Greyhound Rescue Wales, Hope Rescue, Dogs Trust, Almost Home Dog Rescue? There are so many charities that can provide that support. Thank you.

Thank you. I can certainly give you a commitment that I will write to the owner of the Valley racetrack in Caerphilly. Unfortunately, I did write to him in March, and I'm still awaiting the courtesy of a response. So, I'm not sure I will get a response if I write to him again, but I will certainly write to him again. As you know, I'm absolutely committed to the welfare of greyhounds. I want to look at what more we can do immediately. Obviously, there is the Petitions Committee bringing forward a petition. I am going out to public consultation on the licensing of activities involving animals. That's being developed at the current time. So, there is work going on. But I too would very much like to meet with the owner of the racetrack.

Minister, I would like to ask for a Welsh Government statement regarding the ability to challenge expected occupancy thresholds for self-catering accommodation during the COVID-19 pandemic. As we all know, during the pandemic, COVID-19 regulations meant that, by law, self-catering businesses were not able to reach the required advertised rates of being listed for 140 nights per year. As chair of the Senedd's tourism cross-party group, I've had members of the sector contacting me regarding the Welsh Government not granting any sort of challenge to this occupancy rate, despite other Governments across the UK allowing this to happen. So, as a consequence, we now have the Valuation Office Agency alerting businesses that, in previous years, they failed to reach the threshold, despite this being impossible for them to do due to the law, and now their non-domestic rating status is under review and, indeed, is likely to be lost for many of these businesses. This, of course, will lead to genuine businesses being reclassified as residential properties, with them then facing a backdated council tax bill for the last three years, which could be quite substantial for them, with many of them potentially having to close, with jobs being lost and other unintended consequences. Now, it's only right that there is the ability for these businesses to challenge this process because they weren't able to be open during those times. So, I'd like a statement on that position. Thanks.

Thank you. I understand the Minister for Finance and Local Government has asked you to write to her. I know she's had quite a bit of correspondence around this, so I think she'll be very happy to share that with you and also to respond to you if you write to her.

I just wanted to pick up on the earlier remarks by Jane Dodds today, because, having listened to the Iranian people living in Wales, on the steps of the Senedd, I think it was really clear the level of anger about the lack of action by the UK Government. Particularly, they want to see the freezing of Iranian assets in the UK until they stop killing their own people, particularly women and girls, in industrial numbers. We really don't have enough information about what is going on, and we rely, therefore, on these one-to-one conversations until and unless the media is in a position to tell us more. They also wanted to see the recall of the UK ambassador from Tehran. We just have to reflect on how little people have normally benefited from the oil-rich wealth in their countries. Few countries have had the prescience of Norway, which set up the fund for future generations, and what is now the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. So little discussion about the rights of individuals to benefit from their natural resources, and instead it's all about, 'How can we benefit?'. We have to put human rights much clearer, front and centre. So, I was very pleased to hear your words, leader of the house, but I really hope that we can write to the UK Government and ask them to make it much clearer where they stand with women and girls who are being killed in Iran.

Well, I will certainly pass on your comments and your views to the Minister for Social Justice, who, I'm sure, will be very happy to write to the UK Government.

Business Minister, I too would like to reiterate calls from Jane Dodds earlier and others across parties, across the Chamber, for the Welsh Government to adopt a strong vocal position, even if this comes under the UK Government to take action.

I'd also like to request a statement from the education Minister updating the Senedd with a formal announcement of his plans to replace A-levels and BTEC here in Wales. It's hard to fathom that we're still in a position in Wales that we don't know what our equivalent to the English T-levels will look like. I'm sure you'll agree, business Minister, that this lack of a plan can't go on.

The second statement that I'd like to request is on home schooling. As you know, business Minister, three weeks ago, I requested an urgent statement from this Government on proposals for home schooling in Wales. The community are very anxious for answers, so I'd like to press you for a statement sooner rather than later from the education Minister.

Lastly, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'd like to ask for a statement on progress to upgrade school kitchens to facilitate the growing number of free school meals being provided. A recent admission by this Government to my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, where the Government said,

'it is not currently possible to confirm the number of primary schools in Wales requiring upgrades to their kitchens'

isn't good enough. So, I'd appreciate, business Minister, if the education Minister could come to this Senedd and allay concerns—obvious concerns—and confirm in a statement that all schools are and will be ready to implement this Government's universal free-school-meals initiative. Thank you.

So, I think I answered Jane Dodds fully regarding the situation in Iran, and you will have heard my answer to Jenny Rathbone. I think it's really important that we put pressure on the UK Government.

You asked for three statements from the Minister for education. In relation to free school meals, that work is ongoing, and I don't think, really, there's a need for a statement at the current time.

Regarding examinations, the Minister for education will, obviously, update Members, by either oral or written statement, when the decisions have been taken.

And in relation to home schooling, again, I will have a discussion with the Minister to ensure that, at the appropriate time, a statement is made.

I thank the Trefnydd.

Item 3 this afternoon is a statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution—the publication of the electoral administration and reform White Paper. I call on the Counsel General, Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Today I present our electoral administration and reform White Paper. In this paper, we consult on our proposals for electoral reform and the next steps for modernising electoral administration in Wales. The consultation will run until 10 January. Our proposals are another step on our journey to build a twenty-first century electoral system—a system that increases voter participation so that every citizen can play a full part in our democracy.

I'll begin by reminding Members of some of the things that we have done already. During the fifth Senedd, we extended the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, and qualifying foreign citizens. This was done through the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Act 2020 and the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act 2021. I'm proud that young people, and those who have chosen to make Wales their home, now have a say in the running of their country.

Dirprwy Lywydd, last July I published a clear framework for electoral reform with six principles reflecting the values of social justice and the value we place upon democracy in Wales: equity, accessibility, participation, improved citizen experience, simplicity and integrity. The White Paper we are publishing today asks for views on these principles. We want to use these clear principles as a benchmark or to benchmark electoral reform and guide our work to support democratic engagement and participation, and we want to make sure they command broad support.

Just over five months ago, we successfully delivered a set of electoral innovations at the May local elections in partnership with four authorities and the wider electoral community. First, we supported four councils piloting new ways of voting, giving people increased flexibility on the time and location of voting. We maximised voter registration by investing in increased capacity in local authority election teams, and tailored communications to target newly enfranchised groups. We supported the third sector and schools in engaging better with young people by providing opportunities to increase awareness and understanding of politics and citizenship. Finally, we introduced changes aimed at improving postal vote statement error rates. So, we're trying new things in Wales and learning lessons from our efforts with partners that share our ambition of increasing democratic health in Wales.

Having completed the cycle of Senedd and local government ordinary elections, the time is now right to accelerate our reform agenda in anticipation of the next major devolved elections in 2026 and 2027. Our White Paper sets out an ambitious long-term vision agenda for modernising electoral administration and wider electoral reform, supporting delivery of our programme for government commitment to reform local government elections to reduce the democratic deficit. This complements work under way to deliver the reform of the Senedd that Members have agreed for 2026 onwards.

So, we invite views on a mixture of non-legislative propositions to promote engagement in elections, to make standing for election safer and more straightforward. We also want to know what voters think about our proposals for legislation to modernise the administration of elections, improve the conduct of electoral and community reviews for local government, and consolidate electoral law, to be introduced during this Senedd. Finally, we set out our longer term propositions for electoral reform to support Welsh democracy in the future. Our proposals stand in contrast to many of the actions pursued by the UK Government, which seem designed to make it harder for people to vote in UK elections. I want to be clear: our priority is maximising participation, rather than creating barriers in tackling a phantom of electoral fraud.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement and the advance copy of it that you shared with me.

I have to say that I'm not adverse to making changes to the voting system. I'm not adverse to making changes to electoral administration, or indeed, reform, if that is necessary. But we do have a successful record of delivering fair elections here in Wales, as we do in other parts of the United Kingdom. It's not complicated, it works and it delivers results. We don't always achieve the sort of turnout that we would like to achieve, and that is a challenge, and I think it's something that we have to look to ourselves to sort out, in terms of inspiring the electorate to turn out at elections. You can't force people to use the vote that they're eligible to cast, and we've got to take and accept some responsibility for not, perhaps, inspiring them enough.

But I don't necessarily see the need for all of the proposed changes that you're putting forward in the White Paper, nor do I see this as being an area that ought to potentially be sucking up all of the Welsh Government's time in terms of its legislative priorities. There are many other things that the Welsh Government could be getting on with, but for some reason, you seem to be focusing on things that are not necessarily the priority of members of the public.

So, we have a situation where you embarked upon your early voting pilots earlier this year; frankly, they were a disaster—they were an absolute, unmitigated disaster. You spent £1.5 million—£845 per person who voted early. That was the outcome. And the turnout in those areas that had the early voting pilots actually went down, and it went down by more than the actual turnout across Wales as a whole went down. So, it went down even further than the 3 per cent across Wales as a whole. So, that's not a success. So, you have one question, I think, resoundingly answered by the spectacular failure of those early voting pilots in that you should not be taking forward any further prospect of early voting in the future.

You've talked, in your White Paper, about automatic voter registration. Now, to me, it's not clear why this might be necessary. Many millions of people in Wales register to vote with the current voting registration system without any issues at all. And of course there are some challenges that are thrown up by automatic voter registration. You could end up with people being registered to vote twice, for example, at two addresses, with potentially an increase in the risk of those individuals voting twice in the same election—[Interruption.] Yes, of course it could happen now, but it's more likely to happen if you're automatically registered in two places at the same time.

You specifically refer to students; the reality is that many students only want to be registered at their home address, their permanent home address, not their term-time address. Now, it's a matter for them if they choose to register at their term-time address. That's entirely a matter for them to be able to choose, but you're taking that choice away from people if you automatically register them to vote at their term-time address. It's not clear how you're going to overcome some of those challenges, where people might want to express a preference to be registered in one place over the other, and it's not clear how, in the White Paper, you'll address the potential for people to vote twice in the same set of elections when they're not entitled to.

Darren, you've gone well over your time, I want to bring people in.

Yes. The final point, if I may raise it, if that's okay, Deputy Presiding Officer, is that I want to know how you're going to uphold this principle of simplicity around elections when you're actually introducing more complexity into the election system, because the more that we diverge in Wales from the voting system that is used for police and crime commissioner elections and for UK general elections, then the more complexity that that is going to bring to people to have to navigate, to try to understand when they are going out to vote. So, if we've got automatic registration, for example, for some elections and not others, people might assume that they're already registered to vote in the general election but might not be, and I think that that sort of complexity is very unwelcome. And that's why I would encourage you to work more closely with the UK Government in order that we can try, if we're going to take forward any reforms, that we can try and do so consistently for all elections, to make sure that that complexity isn't there.

Thank you for those comments, and thank you, also, for welcoming the common objective of obviously wanting a well-working, efficient and robust electoral system.

I think the crux is that the world is changing: we have technology, we've learned opportunity, just as we do within this Senedd with hybrid meetings—we've learned how to use that. And this is a consultation, and it's not about forcing anybody to vote, but it is about ensuring that you can maximise the opportunity for all those people, for the diversity across our society of abilities and so on to be able to participate in voting. Because maximising voting, maximising the opportunity to vote, is about creating a very healthy democracy. For me, that has always been, actually, one of the well-being goals that really, we should all be aiming for, because a society where increasing numbers of people don't participate I think is on a very dangerous slope, and I think we see that around the world.

You talk about it sucking up time, well, of course, in 2017, we were given specific responsibilities to enable us to actually change and to reform our electoral law, and we see out of that opportunities. The consultation is about exploring those opportunities and looking to how we might drag our electoral system into the twenty-first century. After all, what we've had in the past up to now have been some pilots, which have not been about—no-one ever believed that the four pilots that we carried out were going to suddenly transform the turnout and there was going to be this massive rush to the electoral polls. It was always about the technical mechanism for how we might actually do things differently, to show that we could digitise, to show that we could actually run elections in a different, more—and to that extent, they were very successful. If we really wanted to worry about sucking up time, it might be helpful if you called on the UK Government to dismiss the retained EU law, which is going to suck up enormous amounts of time in a totally unnecessary way. I leave that to one side.

I see it as a real attraction to use the powers that we have to look at how technology can make voting more attractive, make it easier, and also maintain robustness and simplicity. I have to say that when I listened to some of your comments, you reminded me of sort of a Captain Ludd—you know, the person who went around opposing, Darren the Luddite [Laughter.] And I think that that's a bit of the difficulty with the approach here. You should really follow the example of David Cameron, and David Cameron said,

'The changes we're making...are modernisation with a purpose. That purpose is to make sure we can meet the big challenges of our age'.

And in many ways, if you take our democratic health really seriously, then facing up to those challenges and looking at how technology can actually make our electoral system more attractive I think is well worth exploring, and if there are things that the pilots show that can work, then we ought to do that.

Thank you very much, Counsel General, and we as Plaid Cymru welcome any attempt to make it easier for people to vote. We look forward to seeing the details as the consultation proceeds.

Why aren't we willing to change the voting system? Everything else in the world changes. But Mr Luddite over here wants us to remain in the age of steam when it comes to voting, rather than go into the digital age. But it's hardly surprising, though, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, to hear Darren Millar opposing reform. Of course, his party's opposed every reform since the great Reform Act 1832, haven't they? So, at least he's true to form. His attack on pilots—. Well, pilots are just those, aren't they? They are tests. They are things to learn from, and I would support any pilot with the aim of trying to encourage more people to vote. He talks about confusion. His party changed the voting system, with the Liberal Democrats, with the police and crime commissioner Act, to first past the post. There was no talk about confusion there. They were the ones that wanted to introduce voter ID. There was no talk about chaos happening at that point.

I'm sure, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, you stayed up late last night to listen to my friend and colleague Sioned Williams on Sharp End. She said, as with the extension of the voting rights to 16 and 17-year-olds, people will not be empowered to vote unless they are inspired to vote, and that's so important. I agreed with Darren on that point. It's up to all of us to inspire, but political education is key. Sioned's right. Political education—what role does political education have in all of this?

Like many people, we're knocking doors during election time. You'll have people telling us, 'Oh, well, we only moved in a few months ago, and we haven't registered.' This will solve that issue. What it won't solve is some wards—. And I can take you to some wards in Cardiff, where you go street after street, passing house after house of people not registered. This isn't going to answer that problem, but what we will see in many wards in Cardiff, and I'm sure in Pontypridd, where the voting turnout at the moment is in the early 20s, is the voting turnout will just plummet even further, but at least it will be a true reflection of the number of people voting.

As you said, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, automatic registration is not a new thing. I, in my halls of residence, was automatically registered to vote in England, in their local elections, and I can tell you that's the only election I've never voted for Plaid Cymru. [Laughter.] I won't tell you who I voted for, but that party's never been represented here, and that party supports Welsh independence, so I'll allow you to guess. But it's important that people know that they're registered. How will you tell people that they have been registered? How will the advertisement be paid for? Will it be up to local authorities, yet again, to foot the bill?

When and where will these pilots take place, because you can only do it for local elections and Welsh elections? Well, they are far away, so when will they take place and how quickly will the evaluation be done afterwards?

Can I thank you for your comments? I agreed with most of the comments, and I certainly agree with the comments that you made with regard to the voter ID. Only I would probably disagree with you there, because there is already emanating a lot of chaos on how on earth that would work and what the challenges are in terms of explaining to people what is required and how that would actually work, and I wonder whether that will actually happen.

It happens in Northern Ireland—[Inaudible.]

I think that Northern Ireland is a slightly different situation, in terms of its own process. I think, in terms of the common area that is among all parties, that we all agree that there is a need for politicians to inspire, and that is an obligation. I think, in order to inspire, we have to also have the opportunity to actually engage as well, and I think it is something that needs to be looked at with the education system and so on. Of course, there is variability, and obviously there are opportunities through the new curriculum in terms of increasing, I think, civic education, which I think is absolutely fundamental, but also the ability to engage fairly with young voters—with schools and so on—in a fair and non-partisan way about the way in which the electoral system operates, but also in terms of the sorts of issues that arise.

As a personal item, I have always felt really disappointed that so many schools do not educate people about trade unions, about co-operativism and things like that—things like that have been very important in our history—but that's another matter. Clearly, there is going to be an issue in terms of any changes and how they are communicated and the engagement process on that, and that is something that will be considered within the consultation, but obviously something that is extremely important.

In terms of the pilot, I think that the main point is going to be this: if we are going to set up a nationwide database in terms of automatic registration—basically, the digitisation of the electoral system—we can't really do that, because we don't have the power to do it. We need the legislation in place; we can then have the pilot. We will have the pilot after the legislation, which is why the timetable is really important. We'll have that pilot in order to assess the different sources from which information can be taken, because we have to ensure that the system that we set up and the databases that we use and the access to the information and how it is then maintained (1) respect privacy, but also are robust and maintain confidence in the integrity of the electoral system.

We already have, of course, many, many databases. The NHS has an enormous database already. What it does mean, of course—. One of the things is that the electoral register, per se—or that database—would become a closed list. So, it wouldn't be out for sale, as it is at the moment in some ways. And I think that that would probably be a very good thing. It would be there for the appropriate authorities to access when required.

In terms of the electoral managing and co-ordination board, well, of course, that is something that was set up on a completely voluntary basis amongst the electoral registration officers. We are one of the few places that doesn't actually have a statutory national electoral management board. So, what the legislation is proposing is that we do actually create that—we create, actually, a proper nationwide structure for the actual management and co-ordination of elections around Wales, with all the benefits that would exist in terms of maximising use of technology, systems, consistency, robustness and so on.

I very much welcome the Minister's statement. I welcome measures to make it easier for disabled voters, both those with physical and sensory disabilities, to be able to get to a polling station. Sometimes, getting into the polling station itself can be very difficult for people who do have those disabilities. And what do people do? They don't bother, because it's too much trouble.

I welcome automatic voter registration. Many of my constituents who had actually turned up to vote for me found out that they weren't registered, which was hugely disappointing to me, though not necessarily to anybody else. But, seriously, that is a problem: people thinking that they are registered and finding out when they go there that they're not. Those tend to be disproportionately younger people; they tend to be disproportionately people from poorer areas.

The one big change that has worked really well, the postal votes on demand, that has really been a huge success. But there are two problems: the number of people who, on their postal vote, get it rejected because they fill in the date they send it in, not their date of birth; and the people whose signature doesn’t match the signature they sent in. Often these people are suffering degenerative conditions, things like multiple sclerosis or things like Parkinson’s, and their signature has changed over time. So, my request is: would it be possible to return these votes to allow people to remedy these errors? Because all you’re doing is taking the outer envelope; you’re not touching the vote whatsoever.

The second one is: I’m afraid it’s not the difficulty in voting that stops people voting—it’s a lack of desire to vote, and that’s a challenge for us on all these benches here, and members of parties who aren’t represented here, to make people think they want to vote for us.

Thank you. I think the points you made early on about inclusiveness, really, about those with disabilities, whether they be sensory abilities and so on, are actually really important. Digitisation and so on create many opportunities for change and for inclusiveness within those. Those are the ones we want to explore, and there are many examples in countries around the world that I know have been looked at previously, but I think digitisation again creates opportunities there.

I should say one thing, of course, which is that one thing we refer to in the paper—not looking at it for the next set of elections, but in the future—is of course online voting. We think there are issues with regard to technology, security and so on at this stage, but of course digitisation opens the door for that, and I think that’s a really different thing. Many of us have experience of it in many ways already, so it is about the utilisation of the technology, provided it can be done safely, robustly and, I think, absolutely simply.

I think the point you raised in terms of postal votes is absolutely right. Of course, some changes were made after the last elections with regard to the format of the postal vote papers, and I have to confess you’re absolutely right about the confusion. I made a mistake and had to go and seek another paper in order to do that, for exactly the same reason—you sign in the wrong place or whatever. And those are easy mistakes to make. So, one of the things in this area that’s in the paper for consultation is of course that issue of tracking. And that is ensuring that those who want to vote and who use postal votes—if there are reasons why, there are technical errors like that and so on, there are opportunities for them to be corrected and so on. I don’t think that is beyond our abilities at all.

I just thank you for the other comments.

Finally, Jane Dodds.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Good afternoon, Counsel General. I’ve got one minute to talk about democracy, when I am the only representative of the Liberal Democrats. But I just want to put on record how I support the principle of these reforms, because democracy in the UK is on life support, trust in politicians is at an all-time low, turnout in elections remains low, participation in democracy continues to fall, and we have a lot to do—unlike the Conservatives in Westminster, who are hell-bent on trashing our democracy and robbing us of our basic democratic freedoms.

Frankly, the attempts to dehumanise prisoners even further I think is unforgiveable. With the greatest of respect, Darren Millar, it is unforgiveable that you want to deny them the right to talk and to vote on things that are so important to them—as important to them as they are to us. So, we must remove barriers and make it simpler for people to vote, and I’m thankful for the advances that have been made in the statement today.

Here are some ideas to really push that Welsh vote out even further. I would like to see a shift where all councils have to elect councillors through STV. I want to see participatory budgeting, I’d like to see more innovation around citizens’ assemblies, and I want to see us lead the way on data and technology, which you have just referred to. There’s so much to welcome here, and I do hope that we can move it forward further here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Can I thank you for those comments? I think this is a really exciting consultation, because it has shown that within Wales we can do something different, we can do it better and we can use the powers we have. I think the approach that we’ve had, and something that has been considered over a number of years since 2017, the way we can modernise and drag our voting system into the twenty-first century—. And let's face it, our voting system, essentially, has not changed very much in 100 years. It's still paper votes on lists, with pens and papers and rulers, where you draw lines through and so on, and clearly it's not beyond our wit to actually produce something a lot better, and I look forward to your ideas there.

Can I just say something on your ideas and the comments you made in terms of local councils and STV? Well, of course, as a result of legislation passed in this place, local councils have the opportunity to choose to introduce STV in their voting systems if they choose to do so. They have to do it, I think, within the first two years, but that is a choice locally that they actually have. Diolch.

I thank the Counsel General.

The next item is a statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language on Welsh Language community housing. And I call on the Minister, Jeremy Miles.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. The large number of second homes and short-term holiday accommodation we have in some parts of Wales have provoked strong feelings for some years. In these communities, there is an understandable sense of injustice that people can be priced out of their local housing market by those purchasing second homes or homes bought as short-term lets.

Wales has always been a welcoming nation, and we always want that to be the case. Tourism is an important industry in Wales, but too much holiday accommodation and too many second homes that are empty for much of the year can have a negative impact on the vibrancy of these areas and the sense of community. Often, second homes are concentrated in Welsh-speaking communities and can reduce our opportunities to use our language in those communities. Also, if young people cannot afford to live and work in our Welsh-speaking communities, that can also be to the detriment of the language.

As ever, it's easier to describe the problem and call for action than it is to solve it. But we are breaking new ground here in Wales in the solutions that we are bringing forward to face these challenges, and many beyond Wales have expressed an interest in what we are doing. We are pioneering, with linguistic considerations now included in discussions surrounding affordability and second homes. And that is what I am going to talk about today.

I want the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' to play a central part in our response to the numerous challenges facing Welsh-speaking communities. We received 800 responses to the consultation on the plan—the largest number we have received on an issue relating to the Welsh language, which shows the strength of feeling and the desire to act. The people of Wales want to safeguard and protect the Welsh language as a community language, as do I. So, diolch o galon to everyone who responded.

The main aim of this plan is to help communities to plan for themselves, to address particular challenges in their areas, drawing on local insight and energy. This is not just a housing plan. It draws together, for example, the work that the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, has been doing in housing, as well as the work of Government on the economy, community development and language planning. It really is an example, Dirprwy Lywydd, of mainstreaming the language within other policies.

I am also announcing today a package of almost £500,000 to realise some of the plan’s objectives. To give you a flavour of these objectives: we want to create more co-operative enterprises, led by the community. There was considerable support for this idea in the consultation responses. These will be spaces where people can work and use the language freely—specifically Welsh-speaking spaces.

We also want to work with those who have a key role within the housing market—estate agents, solicitors, mortgage companies and local authorities. We have an opportunity to work with these local experts in order to share information about support available to help local people to purchase or rent properties that are affordable.

We will also create a network of cultural ambassadors. These will be local people who know their communities well. They will explain cultural issues and the language situation in order to help integrate newcomers. People are more willing to be part of a community when they understand the community in which they live.

We frequently hear of houses being sold before reaching the market, or being sold quickly to buyers who have the means to purchase them, often without the need for a mortgage. We also hear of sellers accepting lower prices from local people, and allowing adequate time for a loan to be arranged. There are examples of sellers helping buyers, and we must bear in mind that it is not estate agents who decide who buys a property—the ultimate decision is in the hands of the seller. We will therefore establish a fair chance scheme, to raise awareness among sellers or prospective sellers of the options they have to support people who want to remain in or return to the communities where they were brought up. This will be a voluntary scheme, highlighting what can be done to help local people access an affordable house to purchase or rent.

During the National Eisteddfod this year, I launched the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities. The commission will respond to challenges facing Welsh-speaking communities. Based on information provided by experts in the field, the commission will compile a report within two years, making policy recommendations. The commission has already met, and I expect its conclusions may be challenging to many, but it is essential that we ground our policies in evidence and reality.

An important part of the plan will be to safeguard Welsh place names, which also features in our programme for government. We received a strong and constructive consultation response to this issue. We know that the names of houses, businesses, lakes and mountains impact the character of an area, and that people are concerned about this. And that is why we committed to do all we can to safeguard Welsh place names, so that future generations may enjoy them too. We need to develop our evidence base for action, not only concerning the number of names that are changing, but how and where they are changing. So, we are commissioning rigorous research to help us in that regard. We will also continue to work with local authorities to establish the exact state of affairs, and a variety of solutions will be needed in order to make a real difference.

The economic health of Welsh-speaking communities is important to the flourishing of the language. Members will have seen from announcements earlier this week that further funding will be provided to build on the work of the previous Arfor programme. This will support businesses and create employment opportunities in some of our Welsh-speaking communities, adding value to our mainstream programmes and to the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan'.

If we want local people to have a realistic chance to live in our Welsh-speaking communities, to maintain the vibrancy of the language as a natural part of everyday social and economic life, to ensure the flourishing of Welsh in our communities and across our nation, we must act boldly. The Welsh Government, in co-operation with Plaid Cymru, has done so, and today’s announcement of the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan', alongside the range of other measures we have taken, is the latest step in that journey to make a practical reality of the hawl i fyw adref.

I refer Members to my declaration of interest forms published, in terms of property ownership.

Thank you for the statement. I think that every Member of the Senedd is supportive of the target of having a million Welsh speakers by 2050. [Interruption.]

Thank you. It's a start. [Laughter.]

Importantly, our First Minister has called Wales a nation of sanctuary. So, for me, I have to start off my contribution today that there must not be here in Wales, at any time, any bias or prejudice to interfere against any person looking to buy a house in Wales. Now, I do respect the fact that the fair chance scheme, which may allow properties to be marketed locally only, for a fixed period, is voluntary, but by no means should this be made compulsory, because, after all, we do live in a free market.

Now, if we take Ireland, for instance, there are technically a million people who mention in the census and things that they can speak Irish, but, in reality, there are fewer than 80,000 who do speak that every day. That is the situation we're all working to avoid here, and we all want the Welsh language to thrive. However, we need sustainable communities and much better paid job opportunities in those areas where this plan is designed to support. At present, the two main sectors though, agriculture and tourism, have actually come under significant pressure from your Government, with all the regulations set on our farmers and also with tourism, with some of the moves now in tourism, and this is mainly as a result of the Labour and Plaid Cymru co-operation agreement.

Your plan quite rightly states that you've changed the rules around short-term holiday accommodation, introducing the 182 days barrier. Now, the case has been made against this so eloquently by the sector, and even the farming unions, so you've got to be a bit careful that what you're designing doesn't have unintended consequences, because it is completely illogical that farmers are likely to be charged a premium on their holiday let because they do not have enough customers or visitors to meet the 182 threshold, and planning conditions stop them from being rented in the private sector on the open market. These properties were only ever designed to be holiday let accommodation, and, when farmers have diversified, you should not be looking to pull that rug from under them.

Thankfully, the Conservative UK Government are backing schemes that will boost economic and community growth in west Wales, such as 200 jobs with His Majesty's Revenue and Customs at Holyhead. So, I would be pleased, Minister, if you could clarify how many jobs in west Wales—. The Arfor 2, which will be costing £11 million, how many jobs is that expected to deliver? And what kind of jobs? Are we talking now about higher paid roles? Because we mustn't forget here that, in Wales, the average median wage is £3,000 to £4,000 less than in England. So, if our local Welsh people were earning more money with better jobs, greater pay, then surely they would find it easier to actually then look to own their own homes.

Janet, you will need to conclude now, please.

Yes. So, I have a couple of questions for you. Can you explain how many new builds are you hoping to see in Welsh language speaking areas? Whilst you are pursuing planning changes, in terms of categorisation, will you be focusing on planning reform that will boost house building and infrastructure projects, as our Prime Minister is doing? And, finally, where you have these Welsh-speaking only spaces, where we welcome people in as a nation of sanctuary, how will you find these communities remaining cohesive, rather than having exclusive bubbles, where that may then prevent communities from joining up together? Thank you.

Well, can I just firstly say that I thought very much that the Member's contribution started off better than it ended? I congratulate her on her use of Welsh in the Chamber, and encourage much more of that.

So, she made a number of wide-ranging points, some of which were germane to the statement, some of which were in relation to other areas. I think it's really important that we establish from the start that there is no tension between welcoming people into our communities and the success of the Welsh language. We see every day people from all parts of the world who've chosen to come to live here in Wales and we open our arms to them learning Welsh. I think that's really to be celebrated. It's a really fantastic thing to see. We've seen Ukrainian children learning Welsh. We see it with people coming from other parts of the UK and further afield.

The role of the llysgenhadon diwylliannol is really important in this, in bringing people into the community, explaining the cultural context of the place that they've chosen to live. I think that's a really important part of creating that welcoming environment. I detect in the Member's question signs of having read the speech I gave at the Eisteddfod, so I'll thank her for the implicit compliment in that, but she's right to say that the headline numbers aren't sufficient if people aren't using the language every day. That's why we absolutely want to see local economies that are flourishing. I hear the point that she's made consistently about the threshold for self-catering accommodation. We need to make sure that property in that part of the sector is being used productively for the economy. We don't want to see those properties being empty for a long time and detracting from the ability of the community to flourish economically, socially and from a linguistic point of view.

She is making many of the points in relation to employment opportunities in parts of Wales that I was making in the last Senedd when I was the Brexit Minister. I'm glad to see that she's finally realised the consequence of some of the decisions that she was happy to support at the tail end of the last Senedd. I think it's very welcome to see that Damascene conversion, which today's contribution was evidence of. I do also genuinely welcome the support that she gives for an ambitious approach in relation to place names. I do recognise that's probably in tension with her other commitment to the free market, so I think it's particularly significant that she sees that as part of the solution.

What I will say, though, in seriousness, in closing in response to her points, is that we have ambitious targets to build 20,000 social homes for rent, but she will know that the consequences of the economic collapse of the last 10 days has been to push up interest rates very considerably, and that will put incredible pressure on our Government's house-building targets and the targets of every other Government in the UK in that space as well. That's why it's so important that UK Government economic policy is set with these broader social objectives in mind. I share with her the ambition to make sure that we build plenty of homes in Wales for people to be able to live in them affordably, but the actions of her colleagues in Westminster are actually making that harder rather than easier.

Thank you, Minister, for the statement and thank you for the opportunity to have a look at the statement before the announcement today. The Minister is entirely right to say that second homes have caused major problems for our rural and coastal communities, particularly in those areas where the Welsh language is at its strongest, and have done for decades. A large number of second homes and short-term holiday lets has led to the Welsh language losing ground and to people leaving their communities, along with the associated detrimental social impact on communities. That, of course, is the sad context, but I am pleased, in co-operation with Plaid Cymru and by listening to the voice of campaigners who have, for decades, been so eloquent in expressing their concerns and putting forward possible solutions, that there is now light at the end of the tunnel.

I agree with the Minister’s statement that we are breaking new ground here in Wales. I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the package of measures already announced, namely the new 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan', and that there is funding to support delivery in achieving this aim. There is a question, of course, as to whether this funding is sufficient, because the housing crisis is vast. So, I'd like to seek assurance about the sufficiency of the plan. I'd like to ask the Minister how exactly he foresees that this plan will help us achieve the aims of the wider package of measures to deal with the second homes crisis that we've all talked about this afternoon.

I'd like to emphasise that, whilst there are areas with large numbers of Welsh speakers and some with fewer Welsh speakers in them, the Welsh language and Welsh culture belong to everyone in Wales, from Môn to Monmouth. I note that you mentioned the Arfor region, which runs from Môn to Carmarthenshire, but you will know that there are other areas, such as the area where you grew up in the Swansea valley, that have a large number of Welsh speakers, also Maesteg, or the vales of Clwyd and Ceiriog. So, how does the Minister foresee that the plan will safeguard the language and culture across Wales, not just in the traditional strongholds of the Welsh language?

As we await a full analysis of the census results, it's clear that data related to the language will have implications for any Government plan to safeguard the Welsh language. In other words, the census will give a clearer picture of the Welsh language’s status, and we will need to consider this data as we move ahead with any new policies. So, is the Minister confident that this plan will be fit for purpose, and that it will be able to take into account the census results?

The Minister mentioned the matter of properties being sold before they reach the market, or being sold quickly to a buyer who has the financial means to buy it outright. The Minister mentioned the establishment of a fair chance scheme, as Janet Finch-Saunders also mentioned. She didn't want to see this being put on a statutory footing, but I'm eager to see whether you have ideas to develop this voluntary scheme to be on a statutory footing that will continue for years to come, and will be extended for other areas as well, to ensure that everyone has an opportunity to live in their communities.

Thank you for those further questions. If I could begin on the issue of funding, I haven't outlined all funding sources related to the work that we're dealing with today. We have provided funding to Cwmpas to support co-operative enterprises and housing so that we can bring in the experience of co-operatives such as PLANED, Partneriaeth Ogwen and Cwmni Bro Ffestiniog. There's a lot of that that has been funded through the programme that Cwmpas is working with us on at the moment.

I agree entirely with what the Member said; the Welsh language belongs to everyone. One of the exciting elements in the work of the new commission, I think, will be to look at the position of the Welsh language in all parts of Wales, and that will help us to understand the economic and social impact on the language. That will help us to draw up policies that will be applicable in all parts of Wales in due time. This will happen as part of the work of the commission. One of the elements currently under consideration is this concept of areas of linguistic sensitivity, where there is a possibility that education policy, planning policy and other areas may have an impact on the Welsh language in that community. The work of the commission will be very important in creating an evidence base for that, and that will work in different ways in the Welsh-speaking heartlands on the one hand, as compared to other areas of Wales on the other. So, that's part of the work of the commission in the medium term, too.

We await the census results, as the Member said. I don't know what they will be at the moment. What we've endeavoured to do in this and with the other steps that we've taken in terms of our response to the challenge of second homes—and, by the way, in the context of education policy in relation to the Welsh language—is that we are as ambitious as we can be. We don't know what the census results will be; we will know by the end of the year, hopefully. Whatever they are, we have more work to do, and that's the intention here—to be as ambitious as possible. The steps we've taken here, in planning, and in taxation, have been major steps forward, as the Member acknowledged in his contribution. But, we will look again at the trajectory when we get the census results to see if it's applicable for the next five or 10 years. So, we'll have an opportunity to review the trajectory to 2050 in that context.

In terms of the fair chance scheme, the question of what's devolved and what's not devolved is pertinent in terms of our ability as a Government to tackle this, but we are looking at one legal element, namely what more can sellers do in terms of covenants on their properties. So, that work will be ongoing, and there's a legal element to that, which will perhaps offer some kind of opportunity.

I draw attention to my declaration of interest in terms of property ownership. The Minister will be aware of the attention that I've paid recently to the tenants who told us that their landlord in the Bodorgan estate has asked them to leave their homes, to turn them into holiday accommodation. My concern here is for the individuals and families who face losing their homes, but I'm also concerned about the impact on the housing stock locally. May I draw the Minister's attention today to a letter that a constituent sent me yesterday? It was posted through a front door in Benllech:

'I do hope you don't mind me contacting you. I'm looking for a property in your area and wondered if you might be interested in selling or renting your property long term.'

A company called Coastal Holidays was responsible for sending that letter—not a local tourism company, I have to say, but a company from Warwick, according to their website. Very importantly, it's a company that is trying purposefully to take properties out of the local housing stock, disenfranchising people in the community from being able to buy those houses and driving prices up.

The Minister today has talked about good practice that he wants to see developing. Does the Minister agree with me that what we see in this letter is poor practice? It's not unique, of course, but it is testimony to why we need the kinds of measures that are being mentioned today that emanate from the co-operation agreement, and why we need to take robust action, including legislation, to safeguard the housing market, and through that safeguard the Welsh language.

I accept that that's bad practice. That's the very kind of thing that we want to tackle in the broader plans that we have. What I've said today will make a contribution. Good practice isn't always enough; we sometimes will need to change legislation or taxation. We're doing that in terms of planning and LTT and so on. So, that broader range of things will make a difference, hopefully.

I thank the Minister.

We're moving on this afternoon to the next item, which is a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the approach to respiratory viruses. I call on the Minister to make her statement—Eluned Morgan.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. I provided an update to Members regarding COVID-19 and winter pressures on 20 September. I highlighted the fact that we are preparing for a third winter of living with COVID, but that the situation regarding respiratory viruses is more uncertain than previous years because seasonal patterns have been significantly disrupted due to the pandemic. The latest rise in prevalence demonstrates that COVID-19 has not gone away, and we need to be vigilant and prepared. According to the latest Office for National Statistics coronavirus infection survey, the proportion of people in Wales testing positive for COVID-19 in the week ending 26 September was around 1 in 50 people.

To help prepare our communities and the health and social care systems for what could be a challenging winter, today, we are publishing our public health approach to respiratory viruses for autumn/winter 2022-23. Alongside this publication, we will also be providing further technical advice on scenarios and actions needed within the health and social care system. This will further supplement the existing planning commenced many months ago in the NHS, as set out in the NHS planning framework. So, planning for seasonal peaks in pressure is a year-round exercise, and there's been further development of interventions that will enable resilience within urgent and emergency care services this winter.

The technical advice on winter 2022-23 models, also published today, will further aid the ongoing NHS planning in Wales through the provision of four COVID-19 models. Over the previous two winter periods, we have seen low levels of flu and respiratory syncytial viruses circulating relative to a typical year, and that was mostly likely due to restrictions in place in relation to COVID-19. There is, therefore, much uncertainty for the winter of 2022-23, as those restrictions are no longer in place. Now, these winter models for COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses explore a 'what if' situation should these viruses come together, and that will help NHS planners and other partners prepare for a reasonable worst-case and COVID-urgent scenario, along with other pressures and challenges.

I'd like to take the opportunity today to highlight the key messages in our public health approach to respiratory viruses for autumn/winter 2022-23. Now, central to the approach that we've taken is our objective to protect the most vulnerable in our society from serious disease. This remains a key focus when we're operating in a COVID-stable environment, whereby we expect further waves of infection but we do not expect these to place continued, unsustainable pressure on the health and social care system. However, as we're aware, circumstances can change rapidly with a sustained increase in cases or the impact of future variants in terms of transmissibility, immune response and vaccine escape and severity. We'll need to act rapidly to respond to changing circumstances, and this could include introducing other measures and stronger advice on protective behaviours, including, for example, the use of face coverings and introducing additional testing to further protect the more vulnerable.

We've set out plans to deliver, in partnership with Public Health Wales, an effective, combined surveillance system that provides timely information to aid effective risk assessment and risk management decisions to reduce harm from COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses. This will be more critical this winter, with the end of mass community testing for COVID-19 in April 2022 and the uncertainties on potential impact for both COVID-19 and other respiratory viruses. We've also outlined our tried-and-tested processes for managing outbreaks of communicable diseases, including respiratory viruses.

Our approach emphasises that vaccination continues to offer the best protection from COVID-19 and flu. For those who are eligible to be vaccinated, getting vaccinated is the most important action that they can take to protect themselves and others. Our winter respiratory vaccination programme was launched on 1 September and, to date, over 360,000 COVID-19 vaccines have been given.

Our advice and approach will continue to focus on enabling and promoting individual behaviours to protect themselves, to protect each other and, particularly, to protect the more vulnerable. This has to be done because this can have significant benefits in terms of reducing transmission of respiratory viruses. We should all now be familiar with these protective behaviours, which include staying at home if you're unwell and wearing a face covering in crowded indoor places and health and social care settings. We've also included targeted advice for those working in key settings, such as health, social care, prisons and education settings.

Another key element of our approach to respiratory viruses is how we can protect people who are at high risk of becoming severely ill as a result of COVID-19. We've set out advice for those who are eligible for treatment with antiviral or antibody therapies, including eligibility criteria and how treatment can be accessed. Our testing approach is also now targeted to protect the most vulnerable. This will help to inform the surveillance process, will support outbreaks, and will help to plan for a potential wave in cases of the virus and a COVID-urgent scenario. We continue to provide tests for symptomatic patients, health and care staff, prisoners, and care home residents. For the winter, we are also providing additional multiplex testing within several settings. These tests can diagnose other respiratory viruses apart from COVID-19, and can ensure that the appropriate treatment and protective measures are put in place.

Our planned communications campaigns will focus on daily protective behaviours that everyone can implement to prevent the spread of respiratory viruses, in order to protect those people who are most at risk. The messaging will be sensitive to the increased cost of living, and they will focus on behaviours that are easy and simple for everyone to maintain and will help us respond to the challenges during the winter months. Thank you very much.

I thank the Minister for her statement this afternoon, and I very much support that message, encouraging people to take up their flu vaccination and booster as well. I was very pleased to sponsor an event in the Senedd last week, encouraging people to take their flu jab; I know, myself and many other Members had their flu jab at that event last week.

Minister, you mentioned in your statement today, you finished by talking about a campaign to encourage people to take up their flu vaccine and booster. Are you expecting health boards to run that campaign in each of the local health board areas, or is there an element of Welsh Government being involved in a more Wales-wide campaign? Perhaps you could tell us a little bit more about that.

You talked about the importance, of course, quite rightly, of healthcare staff and others taking up their vaccination as well. As I understand it, currently, just 29 per cent of healthcare staff have had their 2022-23 COVID vaccination, and one in three adults aged over 65 have taken their booster. Now, so far, that, of course, is well behind the Welsh Government's target of 75 per cent take-up of the vaccination. So, I'm interested, as well, in your assessment over the past 12 months in terms of take-up. There is that concern, of course, that, as time goes on, people put that priority lower down their priority agenda. How successful have those last 12 months been in terms of people taking up their boosters? Are you concerned about the figures that I've just outlined now? Are you going to meet your target of 75 per cent, and why 75 per cent? How was that target brought forward, and what does it mean if your target is not met? Also, there is concern that infection control amongst a number of health boards has become a bit lax, despite lessons learned during COVID-19. So, last year, just 57 per cent of healthcare staff with direct patient contact took their flu vaccination. So, perhaps I can ask you: is that a concern to you and how do you intend to combat that?

I was quite interested that you said in your statement, Minister, that your

'advice and approach will continue to focus on enabling and promoting individual behaviours to protect themselves'.

So, I'm just reading that and trying to digest that into my own words. Can you confirm that self responsibility is now the Welsh Government's approach to the future management of COVID?

Last week, of course, the technical advisory cell report was published. It was some interesting reading, as I read through that. The big headline there is that hospital rates are much higher in Wales than in England, considerably, and, of course, we know that death rates in Wales were higher than in any part of the UK on a per-population basis. I'm interested in what lessons you've learned in that regard to inform future approaches to respiratory outbreaks.

Thank you very much. Well, I can assure you that there will be a national campaign alongside the campaigns that are happening, I'm sure, at local authority level. If I'm honest, we are a bit disappointed with the number of people who have come forward so far in relation to health and care staff, which is why I've instructed my officials to write to the health boards to make sure that we drum up support and we drive up those levels of vaccination for both flu and COVID amongst health and care staff. So, I'm very keen to see that happening. We're working with trade unions also to try to see if they can help us out with some of that messaging.

You asked if our programme has been successful; I think it's been incredibly successful. If you compare it to other parts of the world, we've had really high levels of take-up. The question is: how do we keep up that momentum, how do we keep up the enthusiasm when there's a danger of complacency because we're all getting back to normal—for the first time, let's face it, in about three years? So, what we have set is that 75 per cent target. We think that this is a realistic target. We recognise that, every time, fewer people are likely to turn up for their vaccinations. It's not ideal, it's not where we want to be, but I think we've got to understand that you can't force people into these things, you've got to bring the people with you. The best way to bring people with us is to convince them and to get them to understand that, not only are they supporting themselves, they're protecting their loved ones and they're protecting the broader community if they take up this opportunity.

I think that, with infection control within NHS facilities and care settings, what we've done is we've allowed people to make choices at a local level. So, obviously, in some parts, you'll have higher COVID rates than in others. So, it's right that we give them that flexibility. If we saw the numbers soaring, then actually, we'd have to think about whether we needed to introduce more strict versions from the centre. But, you ask if self-responsibility is part of the response; it has always been a part of the response. It's a part of the response, it's not the only response. Vaccination is our key weapon in our armoury against COVID. But, self-responsibility—you know that if you go into a crowded room that is indoors in the middle of winter, and rates are at one in 50, the chances are that your risk is higher. So, of course it's up to people to take that responsibility themselves and to understand the risks that they're taking.

You asked, finally, about COVID infections. You will have seen last week that, if you look at the number of COVID infections compared to England, 57 per cent of the Welsh public were affected compared to 71 per cent of the English public affected. So, excess deaths were 20 per cent lower in Wales than in England, although you're right to say that there were more hospitalisations, but you expect that in a population that's older, that's sicker, that's poorer and that's frailer.

Thank you to the Minister for the statement this afternoon. I agree, generally speaking, with the plan as outlined by the Minister today. The Minister is right in saying, of course, that COVID has not left us; it is still casting a shadow, and that shadow is getting darker. And there's a concern too that flu could take hold this winter in a way that it hasn't done for a number of years. I am grateful to Dr Harri Pritchard and the team at the Amlwch Health Centre for giving me my flu jab, and I, like everyone else here, would encourage those who quality for that vaccination—those over 50 and those who were carers in one way or another during the pandemic—to go and get that vaccination and to contact a GP or pharmacist.

I just wanted to ask one simple question on the impact that an increase in respiratory conditions through COVID, flu and other viruses, and the impact that that could have on the health service. I am truly concerned that the Minister is still telling us that she is confident of reaching Government targets in terms of waiting lists, that she's confident that, by the end of this year we will have reached the point where nobody will wait longer than 12 months for a first out-patient appointment. We are nowhere near being on track to reach that target, and if we see additional pressures because of respiratory conditions, then the pressures will be even greater, making it even more difficult to reach that target. So, when will the Minister carry out an assessment to see what impact respiratory conditions will have on the Government's ability to reach those targets? Because what I need to know is that the Government is willing to reassess at an early stage, to change direction at an early stage, or the whole backbone of the Government's plans in bringing down waiting lists and waiting times will suffer.

Thank you. Well, as you know, we have modelled and we have looked at what could happen during this coming winter, and the health service is preparing for the models that we have seen, where we'll be likely to see a peak, according to the modelling, in December and January, so we do need to prepare for that, and that is the time, of course, not just for COVID issues, but that's when people need to take time off for Christmas and so on, and that's when it's likely that we'll see the impact of flu too. So, those issues are certainly going to have an impact on our ability to hit some of our targets, but that's why it's important that we do have this plan in place, so that people take the opportunity to be vaccinated, so that they can protect themselves.

The fact is that 1,000 people who should be working in the NHS today aren't able to work as a result of COVID. Now, that is going to have an impact on our ability. One of the things that we are doing to plug those gaps is to use agency nurses, which is difficult, and that increases the cost for us in terms of how much we spend on agency nurses. That's not something we want to do, but it is something that we need to do if we want to continue to try to hit the targets that we've set. It will be difficult to hit those targets that we've set for waiting lists, but I do think that it's very important that we do our level best to reach those targets, to reach that target, because what we're talking about here is people's lives, and people need to be seen. I'm certainly urging health boards to make sure this happens as soon as possible. I look forward tomorrow to having a cancer summit with the NHS in Wales.

Thank you, Minister.

The next item is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being: 'Together for Mental Health' strategy and next steps. I call on the Deputy Minister to make the statement. Lynne Neagle.

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd. Yesterday we marked World Mental Health Day, and this Government is steadfast in its commitment to improve the protection of and support for mental health and well-being. This is demonstrated through my appointment as dedicated Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being and the positioning of mental health as a priority in our programme for government.

As we emerge from the pandemic, the mental health impact of coronavirus is becoming even clearer. Services are reporting an increased number of referrals with more complexity. Each month, although our local primary mental health services teams receive more than 5,000 referrals, more than 17,000 people are receiving care and treatment from specialist mental health services. There is increasing demand for people needing psychological therapies and crisis support, with more than 1,200 referrals to crisis resolution and home treatment teams each month. Against this backdrop, I am acutely aware that the current cost-of-living crisis is likely to add to the challenge.

We are reaching the end of our 10-year 'Together for Mental Health' and 'Talk to me 2' strategies, and I want to take this opportunity to update Members on progress, the independent evaluation of these strategies and our next steps. We have come a long way since the publication of both strategies, and the services, support and investment that we have today demonstrates a significant step change compared with what was in place in 2012. In that time, our annual ring-fenced investment to the NHS for mental health has risen from £577 million to £760 million. We've also committed a further £50 million in 2022-23, rising to £90 million in 2024-25 to support mental health and well-being.

With this investment, we have transformed services implemented at the start of the strategy. This includes the creation of local primary mental health teams across Wales, crisis resolution and home treatment teams, psychiatric liaison services and community perinatal teams. We've also established single points of contact for child and adolescent mental health services to improve accessibility, and we have embedded the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010, a unique piece of legislation that provides the framework to improve mental health services in Wales. We have also established a mother and baby unit in south Wales and are progressing our commitment to improve access to these services in north Wales.

We have significantly expanded support at tier 0/1 levels to provide easy access to a range of support and to avoid escalation to specialist support where appropriate. This includes through our 24/7 CALL helpline and online cognitive behavioural therapy. These services alone have received around 97,000 contacts since September 2020. We've also commenced the phased roll-out of urgent mental health advice through 111, which will provide immediate access to advice from a mental health professional. I expect all health boards to have commenced a phased roll-out towards 24/7 cover by Christmas.

However, we recognise the importance of early intervention and taking a whole-system approach to improving mental health and well-being. We have created a joint health and education programme and a joint ministerial approach, built around schools, to deliver a whole system approach to emotional mental health and well-being. Delivering on our programme for government commitment, we are also rolling out schools CAMHS in-reach support across Wales to ensure issues are identified and support provided earlier.

Good progress has now been made with key legislation underpinning our agenda, and we have now consulted on the draft regulations for Wales to support the implementation of the Mental Capacity (Amendment) Act 2019 and the liberty protection safeguards.

Preventing suicide remains one of our top priorities. We have targeted an additional £1 million in 2022-23 to support this work. In April 2022, Welsh Government, in partnership with the police, NHS and Public Health Wales, implemented the real-time suicide surveillance system. This system will provide crucial information to strengthen preventative work, ensure rapid support and to identify trends or clusters.

I can announce today that later this month we will launch a consultation on new guidance to support people bereaved by, exposed to or affected by suicide. The guidance has been informed by insight from people affected by suicide and aims to ensure a more compassionate response, offering both practical and emotional support, at the different steps on that journey. The implementation of this guidance will be a key focus following the consultation.

Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister. However, it is disappointing that this is not an annual report. While the willingness and enthusiasm is there from the Deputy Minister to improve mental health services, the Senedd needs to be able to analyse progress through clear reporting, rather than just a statement.

'Together for Mental Health' in its decade tenure has only provided one annual report in 2013 and one progress report back in 2018. Given the significance and focus of Welsh Government on mental health, it's imperative that it is able to demonstrate clearly to the Senedd where it has achieved its aims and where more work needs to be carried out. While we realise that COVID-19 has had an impact on mental health services, this is an opportunity to deliver key improvements to the Welsh mental health system. And there are a number of improvements and milestones met. However, the Welsh Government seem to seek to plug the gaps in community mental health services and crisis care with a reliance on third sector organisations to deliver sanctuary. Although I agree that there is a place for the knowledge and experience of the third sector, the Welsh Government should also fully implement its own agenda through the NHS and improvement of services within its own systems. And while the ardour and zeal and warm words are present in the statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister, I believe that an annual report should be published so that the Senedd has the opportunity to scrutinise this in a full, proper and democratic way that will encompass the needs of people the length and breadth of Wales, as I'm sure you can understand, Deputy Minister, that the needs of people in Cardiff will be very different to those in Denbighshire and my constituency, for example.

I welcome the mother and baby unit in south Wales, but could I please ask this afternoon as well why this wasn't extended to north Wales, and whether you could provide any more information on whether that could be a possibility for north Wales in the future? I note that some high-level outcomes of the 2012 strategy, including improving the mental health and well-being of the entire population and reducing the stigma of mental ill health, have been turned on their head as a direct result of the pandemic, as you alluded to. It is concerning that, despite 'Together for Mental Health' aims to reduce stigma, Time to Change Wales found that just 5 per cent of adults have more understanding and tolerance of mental health issues, and that help-seeking behaviour has declined, with large drops in the number of people in Wales willing to talk about a mental health problem with family, friends or employers. So, how will your new strategy address the mental health fallout from the pandemic?

Can I thank the Member for those comments? Obviously, there were a lot of issues there to respond to. If I can pick up, first of all, on your comments about the reporting on the 'Together for Mental Health' strategy, there are regular reports made to the national mental health partnership forum, as well as other bodies. Also, I have established—well, my predecessor established—an NHS ministerial oversight board to monitor progress against all the streams of the 'Together for Mental Health' programme. But certainly, as part of our consideration of how we are going to develop the new strategy, I’m very happy to look at reporting and how we can make that more transparent, in addition to the regular statements and scrutiny that I undergo in the Senedd. Just to add as well: we are planning to publish a closure report after we have completed the current strategy, so you will be able to see exactly where we are with all of those things.

I don’t really concur with what you have said about the balance of support with the third sector. The third sector provides, in my experience, enormously important and much valued support to communities and, in many ways, is best placed really to break down those barriers, especially in communities that we sometimes describe—although I don’t like the term—as hard to reach. They are very well placed to do that. We have massively increased funding for mental health services, including for the third sector, but that is not to the exclusion of NHS services. Just this year alone, we are spending an additional £23 million on priority areas in the 'Together for Mental Health' plan and addressing waiting times pressures. So, it is certainly not a question of investing in the third sector to the exclusion of statutory services.

Thank you for your welcome for the MBU in south Wales, which I was delighted to visit a few months ago. I am acutely aware of the need for there to be provision in north Wales. Modelling has been undertaken to identify the possible need for an MBU in north Wales, and it has been identified that, currently, around two beds—possibly three—will be needed. So, on that basis, it’s very difficult to establish a stand-alone mother and baby unit in north Wales. But, what we are doing now is working with the NHS in north-west England to establish a unit that women in north Wales can have access to. I am very committed to making sure that we deliver that mother and baby unit provision in north Wales.

The Member made some points about stigma, and referred to Time to Change Wales. Of course, unlike England, we have continued to fund Time to Change in Welsh Government. We announced £1.4 million a little while ago to continue the programme, jointly with the economy Minister, because that’s the approach that we take to mental health in Wales. It’s a cross-Government approach. But there is always more that we can do in terms of tackling stigma, and that will be a key feature of the work that we are doing around the new strategy.

I thank the Deputy Minister for her statement this afternoon. I don't think we can over-emphasise the significance of this point in time in terms of the attention we give to mental health. It has been positive to have the 'Together for Mental Health' strategy to give us a focus on the work that needs to be done, to understand the problems that we face in terms of mental health and well-being in Wales, and now, as we're at that point where that strategy is being reborn, we must get it right.

Yes, steps have been taken over recent years. Yes, there has been an increase in investment in mental health, but the fact that we continue to face such intense problems in this area tells us that something is still wrong. Just as we talk of the need to invest in the preventative in the context of the NHS in general, I'd like to hear from the Minister what intention she has to ensure that even more of a percentage of the budget is invested in tackling problems at an early stage, before they develop into problems that are a greater burden for the individual, but are also a greater burden on the acute services, which are so expensive to provide, and create more heartache for the people who need those services.

I would like to know what work the Minister is intending to do at this point to ensure that, in future years, we won't continue to face problems in the provision of acute mental health services of the kinds that we've seen in north Wales in recent years—the ongoing problems at the Hergest unit in Ysbyty Gwynedd, where staff are still turning to us as local representatives and describing problems of low morale and concerns about patient safety. That isn't acceptable, so I would like to hear more about the kinds of ideas that the Deputy Minister is developing in this area.

And finally, I need an assurance here that more will be done to prioritise children and young people. We know that, despite the increase in expenditure and despite the additional focus on mental health—and we welcome that—we are still failing to move children and young people into mental health and well-being services at an early enough stage, and that means that the problems that could be resolved do become more difficult to resolve. I know of people who have given up entirely on NHS services and have decided that there is no option for them but to go private, and that’s in all sorts of areas, including eating disorders.

I need an assurance from the Deputy Minister that there will be a renewed focus on this and a rebalancing of priorities for young people, but also for that transition period between young people's services and adult services. I would be grateful for some comments on that too. We know that Mind Cymru and their plan, Sort the Switch, deals with this area specifically. So, once again, this is a key point. I will support the Government in making the right decisions now, but I do look forward to seeing that strategy being more robust than it has been in the past when it’s before us very soon.

Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his comments, and particularly the recognition of the positive work that's been undertaken through the strategy? I absolutely agree that we must get this right, and, as you've acknowledged, we have hugely increased investment. You alluded to the continuing issues with children and young people's mental health, but I think that we have to acknowledge that the COVID pandemic has had a huge impact on everybody's mental health, and particularly children and young people.

You talked about the need to prioritise children and young people's mental health. That's why I've come into this job, Rhun; I've come into this job because I care so passionately about that, having led the work in the committee, and my dedication is to delivering on that agenda. And we are making progress. You referred to prevention. We are spending money on prevention through what is a cross-Government strategy that deals with housing, employment, debt advice, money advice—all those issues. So, we absolutely recognise the importance of prevention, and that is supported by the funding that we are investing in those programmes.

We are seeing reforms of children and young people's mental health services. I referred in the statement to the single points of access. They have made a difference, because that means that children aren't batted about the system, back and forth then. They can be put in touch with the right people; it's our 'no wrong door' approach in action. And as I said to the previous Member, lots of these young people won't need specialist CAMHS. They're not mentally ill; they are experiencing distress because of what's been going on in their lives, and there is more appropriate help available to them. What we have to do is make sure that they can get that help, and we are investing I think it's £12 million extra this year in the whole-school approach for mental health. Our NEST framework is underpinned by additional funding, and we have, as you know, the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru to pilot the sanctuary provision for young people, although we very much hope that young people won't need to be in crisis; we want to stop that escalation earlier on.

Thank you for your comments regarding Betsi Cadwaladr. I've outlined already the steps that are being taken in Government. As I say, I meet with Betsi quarterly to go through the targeted intervention framework in detail. That's in addition to all the other meetings that are held to monitor quality and performance in Betsi, and the targeted intervention meetings. We have got this review now that is going to look across the range of recommendations that have been made in relation to Betsi in recent years. I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that the health Minister approved the outline business case for the new mental health provision at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, which is really important. Having the right capital really matters, and that's a message that has been given to me many, many times when I've talked to the staff in Betsi. So, that will, I think, make a really big difference.

Good afternoon, Deputy Minister. I do welcome the statement, and also the work that I know you have done and the commitment you have to this particular area of work.

Just two things from me, if I may. Firstly, the situation with CAMHS was bad before COVID, significantly bad. It was worsened, yes, but now we still have 60 per cent of young people having their first appointment within four weeks. That still isn't good enough, and I just hope that there will still be a light shone on this particular area of work, because I know we all know the devastation that mental health issues in young people will bring. I'm not sure I totally agree with your analysis that they don't need the mental health support, that they need other support; I'd like to see the data and the information on that.

The second point, if I may make it, is that we believe in parity: mental health and physical health. I'm delighted to see the tier 1 services, 97,000 people included in that, but there is an issue still about crisis care, and we would like to see a 24/7 crisis care service in mental health. I wondered if you would meet with me just to talk that through, because it's not just simply about health services; it's about a range of services. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much, Jane, and thank you for the kind words as well, which are much appreciated. I just want to be clear that I didn't say that all young people don't need specialist mental health support. What we know, though, is that some of those young people who are referred into specialist CAMHS won't meet the threshold for specialist CAMHS because they're not mentally ill; they're experiencing acute distress because of what's going on in their lives. It's the sort of missing-middle children and young people that we picked up in 'Mind over matter'. What matters is that wherever young people need that support, they're able to get it at whatever point they need it. That's what our 'no wrong door' approach is all about.

I do have to take issue with some of the things you've said about waiting times, because if we look at the most recent figures for your own constituency in Powys, they're well above the 80 per cent target: 97.4 per cent of children are seen within the four weeks, and are actually receiving an intervention within 97.1 per cent for primary mental health services. For specialist CAMHS it's 91.3 per cent, although I acknowledge that other areas are not in such a good position. And, just to give you the assurance, the delivery unit review that I've referred to is coming to completion now. They've been working with all health boards to develop trajectories so that health boards can all recover their performance to meet the targets that we've set out.

I'm very happy to meet you, Jane, to talk about crisis services. Just to say as well, as I said in the statement, we are making good progress with our 111 'press 2 for mental health'. I met with all the vice chairs last week to have a full update on where they're at, and entirely recognise that this won't be just about mental health services. That's why the health boards have to get the right pathways in place, because lots of the people, we know from the data, who come forward for crisis support will, unfortunately, be people who are struggling with things like the cost-of-living crisis, debt and things like that as well. So, we've got to have that range of pathways in place so that we can connect people with the right services. But I'm very happy to have that discussion with you.

Minister, I wanted to ask about the mental health impact of miscarriages. There's still this strange societal expectation that we don't talk about miscarriages, and people grieve for the little lives that were part of their world for a short time. They mourn the moments they never had together. And their grief is something that those parents are expected to process privately and then get on with things. There's not always an expectation that employers will give compassionate leave and mental health support after miscarriages—maternity rights only kick in if you lose your baby after 24 weeks. So, Minister, will the Government work with charities and families to ensure that workplaces across Wales adopt policies that get rid of this taboo around miscarriages and offer compassionate leave and mental health support? Because little steps like this can help ensure that women affected and families affected are bathed in a wave of light, and help ensure that their babies are not forgotten.

Thank you, Delyth, for making those points. I entirely recognise what is, in some ways, a unique form of grief with a miscarriage, because, often, people don't recognise it as the devastating loss that it is, and that compounds the grief that people feel when they lose a baby. We've got a bereavement steering group in Wales and we've published a national bereavement framework for Wales that is trying to make sure people have support when they need it. As part of that then we're also developing specific pathways for particular types of bereavement. We launched the first one in the summer, which was for sudden and traumatic death of a young person. But the next work stream is on baby loss, and we are working with those organisations that work in this area to try and make sure that we get that pathway right. Obviously, employment matters are not devolved to the Senedd, but I'm very happy to pick up with officials how we can make sure, as part of that pathway, that we raise awareness of the needs of people who are bereaved through miscarriage or baby loss.

I thank the Deputy Minister.

The next items are items 7 and 8. In accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects now, the two motions under items 7 and 8 will be grouped for debate, but with separate votes. Unless there are any objections, we will move on. There are no objections.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion—Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. I'm very pleased to be here today to open this debate on the general principles of the Environmental Protection (Single-use Plastic Products) (Wales) Bill and to move the motion and the financial resolution. This Bill is an important first, necessary step in our journey to supporting global action to tackle plastic pollution. From reviewing the recommendations from the committees, I note we are all aligned in our ambition to stop the devastating impact these plastics have on our environment, wildlife, health and our well-being.

I'd like to start, therefore, by thanking the finance; climate change, environment and infrastructure; and legislation, justice and constitutional committees for their scrutiny of this Bill. I very much appreciate all the hard work that has gone into delivering their comprehensive and helpful reports within a very tight timescale. I think it is also important to thank all the stakeholders, communities and young people who have contributed, supported and worked with us to develop the proposals for this vital legislation. I also welcome the additional oral and written evidence provided by organisations and individuals during the scrutiny stage. The combined expertise, challenge and perspective has been, and continues to be, invaluable to the development of this Bill.

I found the committee reports reassuring in that there is clearly a consensus that the Bill is a much-needed starting point and a necessary step in the right direction. Only together can we shift from a single-use culture towards developing more sustainable alternatives and greater reuse. Llywydd, given the number of and detailed nature of the recommendations, it will not be possible to respond to each and every one of them today. Therefore, I will write to the committee Chairs individually with my full response, following this debate. However, you will be pleased to hear that I will be accepting the majority of the recommendations.

Turning first to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee report, I note recommendation 1 from the committee to in due course publish a strategy for the reduction of plastic pollution in Wales. Our strategic direction for tackling plastics is already set out in our circular economy strategy, and our draft litter and fly-tipping prevention plan. A separate strategy is therefore not required. However, I accept that we need to make sure that everyone is clear on the detail of the Bill, the definitions of products and any related exemptions, and clear on work to take forward future bans. We will produce guidance to help producers, retailers and consumers understand the bans brought in by the Bill. We have also included a provision in the Bill to ensure we are transparent about any single-use plastic products we plan to add or remove in the future. This is being achieved under section 79(2) of the Government of Wales Act 2006, in which the Welsh Ministers will be required to report on the considerations as to whether they plan to add or remove a product, or to add or remove an exemption. Work to implement the Bill will be informed by expert advice and discussions with stakeholders.

I acknowledge the range of recommendations in the committees' reports calling for Welsh Government to ensure that interventions at a Wales level are clearly understood by those who will be affected. Recommendations 3, 4 and 5 deal with the need to raise awareness of the Bill's aims to educate people in the need to shift away from environmentally damaging single-use plastic. During the committee scrutiny sessions, I confirmed, subject to approval of the Bill by the Senedd, that we will be working with a range of groups and organisations to develop guidance and communication to support the Bill's implementation. This will include providing information to help clarify the products being banned and highlight what might be suitable alternatives. As part of our ongoing work, we will highlight any potential risks or unintended consequences of non-plastic alternatives. Our communications will also include wider messaging around litter prevention and encouraging people to either bin their waste or take it home with them if a bin is not available.

I can also confirm our guidance will address the concerns raised under recommendation 12 in relation to the provision of single-use plastic straws. I would like to reassure Members that throughout the Bill's development we have engaged proactively with protected characteristic groups, providing them opportunities to comment on our proposals as we progress this work. We have listened to the concerns they have raised and included exemptions accordingly. We have had very similar engagement with businesses. As well as providing clarity for individuals and businesses on the products to be banned and the actions they need to take to prepare for these bans, the guidance will set out information on how exempted products should remain available—so, how individuals who rely on single-use plastic straws to eat and drink safety and independently can still access them, and what businesses should do to ensure that those who need these products can still access them.

I call first of all on the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I am very grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the general principles of the Bill and to be able to share the views of the climate change committee on the Bill with Members. Before I turn to the content of the Bill, I would like to speak briefly about how we've got to this point. Members will be aware, of course, that there was no Stage 1 committee scrutiny—by any committee—of the Bill before us today. The Bill was introduced in the Senedd only three weeks ago formally, the finalised Bill. During that period, the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, the Finance Committee and the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee have all conducted work on this Bill. It's not a situation that we're very content with, but under the circumstances, I think that we have done a respectable job between us of scrutinising this Bill. If we had not chosen to do this work, then there would have been no public consultation on the detailed provisions of the Bill and there would have been no opportunities for those affected by the proposals to have their say. We therefore believe that it was important for us to do the work that we did to avoid a total scrutiny deficit. But—and I say this in the strongest possible terms—our work and what I refer to in my contribution to the debate today should not be considered as an adequate replacement for Stage 1 committee scrutiny. It's important that we all understand that.

Turning to the Bill itself, while there was widespread support amongst stakeholders for the Bill, it must be said that they were under no illusions about the potential impact of the Bill on the environment. Most people told us that the Bill alone will have but a limited effect on the plastic pollution and littering that we see all around us, but, of course, it is a starting point at least, and it is a good first step in the right direction.

There was some discussion in committee about the definitions used in the Bill. For example, some contributors questioned whether there were loopholes around the definition of 'single use' specifically and what that means. But the consensus was that there will always be a degree of ambiguity around the definitions. Stakeholders were less concerned with perfection than with the need for the alignment of the definitions with other legislation. We have therefore recommended that the Bill should be amended to include provision for guidance to be issued on the definitions.

We are, however, concerned about one omission. The Bill, of course, prevents the supply of banned items, but it doesn't prevent the manufacture of those items. In Scotland, of course, both manufacture and supply are prohibited. Under the Bill as drafted, although there might not be many of them, manufacturers based in Wales could be shipping single-use plastics to other parts of the globe. On the face of it, therefore, it is difficult to tally this with our ambitions to be a globally responsible country. Now, the Minister said in opening her contribution that we are starting on a global journey when it comes to tackling plastics. Well, I'd be grateful if the Minister, in responding to the debate, could give specific attention to that point; I'd be eager to hear that.

Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Speaking in that capacity—although, can I just align myself with a lot of the comments made by the Chair of the other committee that I sit on? But also, Minister, I welcome the fact that you're bringing this forward. I think most people in this Chamber will say that this is making progress, and we've been waiting for this, and it's good to see it coming forward. But my remarks are going to be constrained to my role as Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. It's good to have this debate in front of us. In the report that we laid this morning, we've drawn one conclusion and 17 recommendations, and I note that you're accepting, for all committees, the majority of recommendations, and you'll write to us with other more detailed comments, and we appreciate that.

Our single conclusion concerns this issue that was raised by Llyr there on the bypassing of the Senedd's Stage 1 scrutiny process for Welsh Government Bills. On our committee, we're not persuaded that it was appropriate to do so, or indeed wholly necessary for Welsh Government to seek to do so. It does highlight the risk that that sort of bypassing that bypasses and curtails scrutiny could lead to unintended consequences. None of us would want to see it, but at the worst, it may mean that a Bill of this type may not deliver the outcomes that it is intending to do. We hope that that isn't the case, but hence why we have an in-principle objection to the bypassing of the scrutiny process there.

We believe that the suggestion that the process of law making should be bypassed to potentially facilitate for, in this instance, the pursuit of a legal challenge by Welsh Government—and I say this whatever the merits or otherwise of that challenge—is not to be wholly welcome, because it risks undermining the functions of this legislature. So, we hope that such arguments are not routinely proposed by the Welsh Government in future. The question also arises as to whether the Welsh Government has acted as quickly as it could have done, which seems slightly perverse in what I've just said, but given that the intention to legislate was first stated in March 2020, we do think that opportunities did exist to bring forward either primary or secondary legislation much earlier. So, instead of seeking to expedite the Bill's progress through the Senedd and curtail scrutiny by dropping a Stage there, reducing the opportunities for valuable scrutiny, the Welsh Government could indeed have expedited the Bill's development ahead of its introduction and then done the whole Stages.

And then there's the question of whether this Bill was so urgent—although we all want to see it—at this stage, that it needed to be expedited through the Senedd, or would it have been better being considered by the whole Senedd through the Senedd's emergency Bill procedure rather than being left for the Business Committee to decide on an expedited process? In order to provide clarity on some of these issues, we therefore made six recommendations seeking further explanation from the Minister, and we look forward to hearing from the Minister, either today or in writing, in response to that.

Chair of the Finance Committee, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I'm pleased to contribute to this debate today as Chair of the Finance Committee. I’d like to thank the Minister for attending committee to discuss the financial implications of the Bill. We've made five recommendations, and I thank the Minister for the comments that the Minister's made on those, and I look forward to getting more detail from her in due time.

But before I go into detail on that, I'd like to start by supporting the comments made by the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee, Llyr Gruffydd, and the comments we've just heard from Huw Irranca-Davies in relation to bypassing Stage 1 scrutiny. We support the view that bypassing Stage 1 denies stakeholders and the public the opportunity to be consulted on the detailed provision within the Bill. It also denies the Senedd the opportunity to undertake full and robust scrutiny of the policy and financial implications of the Bill.

Turning to the committee's views, we support the aims of the Bill to accelerate the shift from single-use plastics towards developing more sustainable alternatives, and we acknowledge the environmental benefits of reducing plastic pollution. We are also pleased to hear that the Minister continues to engage with stakeholders to ensure that the aims of this legislation are effectively communicated, and we hope this will help bring businesses into compliance and thus reduce the need for enforcement. However, we identified areas within the regulatory impact assessment accompanying the Bill as problematic.

We are particularly concerned that the cost estimated for businesses switching to alternative non-single-use plastics was based on relatively old research and data from 2019-20. Furthermore, the initial cost modelling was based on nine products, rather than 11, as included in the Bill. The Minister told us that she expected that the costs of the nine products may have decreased due to the shift already taking place to alternative products and the effect elsewhere in the UK and globally from countries banning single-use plastics. Whilst this is good to hear, as this may have a positive effect on the costs, we still expect this information to be reflected in the RIA and we recommend that this is included in an updated RIA following Stage 2 proceedings.

Llywydd, it will come as no surprise to Members that the committee is concerned with the impact of current inflationary pressures on the financial impact of legislation. The HM Treasury Green Book says that the effects of general price inflation should be removed from estimates relating to Bills. However, the Minister told us that the costs of both continuing with single-use plastics and moving to non-single-use plastics would be subject to inflation. She also made the point that it may be of benefit for businesses to swap to alternative products away from oil-based plastics, given the rising costs of oil, to mitigate the cost impact of these measures. Whilst we appreciate these suggestions on how costs could be kept low, we are still concerned with the impact this could have on businesses, given the significant rate of inflation. We also believe that it poses an affordability risk for the Welsh Government. This is a concern for this Bill and for future Bills and, as a result, we're asking Welsh Government to give consideration to inflationary pressures when calculating cost impacts of legislation.

Turning to other issues, we heard from the Minister that it was difficult to estimate costs relating to manufacturers and other businesses switching production away from plastic items due to the lack of available data and the lack of engagement with businesses. We are disappointed that this was the case and recommend that further work is undertaken to assess these costs and disbenefits. The RIAs should include the Welsh Government's best estimated cost on introduction to allow us to effectively scrutinise the overall financial implications and benefits of a Bill.

Our final recommendation also relates to the regulatory powers in the Bill. We ask the Welsh Government to commit to providing a full and robust RIA to accompany any relevant subordinate legislation made under this Bill that bans further single-use plastic products not already covered within the scope of the legislation as drafted.

Llywydd, we are grateful to the Minister and her officials for giving evidence to the committee on this significant piece of legislation. Our recommendations point to areas that need to be improved in order to ensure that this Bill is a success, and we look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. Thank you.

I would just like to thank the Minister and your officials and my committee colleagues for the work that has gone into this so far, and it’s not before time that we need to stand here, really, to welcome this Bill. I appreciate everything that the Chairs of the other committees have said, and I just hope that this is one Bill that we can all, cross-party, get behind. But it needs to be a Bill—. Now that we've got this opportunity, it needs to be a Bill that actually delivers, because it is a year after the Labour Government said that you would legislate, it's two years after the UK Government imposed its own ban, and it’s three years after the Welsh Government declared a climate emergency. On 5 July, the First Minister himself announced that this Bill would be used to support the Welsh Government’s ongoing legal challenge against the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020. Anyway, that aside, I and my group welcome the Bill, and we do agree with the general principles. I mean, really, who wouldn’t? The production of single-use plastic is continuing to encompass the global carbon budget. Around 98 per cent of single-use plastic products are produced from virgin feedstock or fossil fuels. By 2040, it is predicted that the production, use and disposal of fossil fuel-based plastics will reach 19 per cent of the global carbon budget. And it is estimated that there are 400 million tonnes of plastic waste each year.

The consequences are devastating, Llywydd. There will be more plastic than fish in the sea by 2050. Ninety per cent of sea birds have plastic in their stomachs. Microplastic pollution has resulted in a decline in fauna, including larvae and mites, and around 100,000 pieces or 250g of plastic are consumed by us as individuals annually. Now, bearing in mind that context, I do want our Welsh Parliament to go as far as it possibly can with this new Bill.

Welsh Water and Wales Environment Link have expressed disappointment that wet wipes containing plastics are not included. But, when you came to the committee meeting last week, Minister, you were actually more forceful on that, and you are certainly going to be looking at it. Because, let’s be honest, wet wipes, particularly with plastic, are the principal cause and contributor to the formation of blockages in our sewers, and also pollute the environment with microplastics. Even the British Plastics Federation has explained that alternatives to wet wipes containing plastics do exist. I understand, according to my colleague Llyr Gruffydd, that we have a company already looking to produce—. Yes, in Wrexham?

No, Flint.

Flint. I beg your pardon. So, focusing for a bit longer on the plastic products we would like to prohibit, research has found now that around 39 per cent of smokers throw cigarette butts—or cigarette tips, as I always used to say; yes, cigarette tips—containing plastic down the drain. The vast majority are single-use plastic, and they contain hundreds of toxic chemicals, once smoked. What we are left with is a plague of plastic cigarette ends on beaches. Quite often, for those of us who take part in beach cleans—. Oh, lordy, thousands of them are collected when there are a few of us out there.

Balloon sticks are rightly included. 'What about the actual balloons?', I have been asked. Someone has written to me, knowing that this is coming forward, so it’s good that the public are becoming aware. What about the actual balloons? The RSPCA has warned that ingesting balloons can cause death by blocking the digestive and respiratory tracts. And in 2013, DEFRA produced 'Sky lanterns and helium balloons: an assessment of impacts on livestock and the environment', in which they identified the choking of livestock due to swallowing balloon fragments.

There’s also a need to consider coffee pods. Hamburg banned coffee pods from state-run buildings as part of an environmental drive to reduce waste. Menstrual products—they generate 200,000 tonnes of waste per year. Nappies—now, this one's a tricky one for me, because, for anyone who's been a mother, going back to the old terry towelling nappies, for me, is not the way forward. However, whether manufacturers could look at maybe producing nappies with less plastic in them—because, again, they're just a blight in our communities when discarded irresponsibly. Single-use toothbrushes—256 million of these are discarded. Single-use razors—2 billion end up in the landfill every year. And more recently, COVID testing kits that are—. Well, they are plastic at the moment. Whether those companies, Minister, could actually look at—. As a result of your Bill coming forward, maybe it will make manufacturers more responsible when they are putting things together.

We do need a serious discussion about enforcement, but I agree with everything that's been said here. This is going to pass costs over to our businesses, and I do believe that, if we bring people with us, people will soon realise that we need to work together on that. So, we need to support it doing more on using the carrot, not the stick.

I am concerned in terms of the financial implications for our local authorities. The WLGA, Chartered Institute of Wastes Management, Newport City Council, Flintshire County Council and Caerphilly County Borough Council have all expressed concerns about resources and lack of capacity—and that's now, before they look at this.

Thank you, Minister. Plaid Cymru has campaigned for years to ban single-use plastics. I first called for a ban in 2019. This is an important step forward, and something that is very much to be welcomed. Because plastics have become an intrinsic part of our lives—from food packaging, our clothes, the way that people clean, the things that we eat, plastic is everywhere. I read this week that microplastics have been detected in breast milk for the first time. And although we are all aware of plastic pollution, COVID-19 has accelerated microplastics’ harmful impact on our environment and biodiversity. I'm sure that we all remember the distressing images of birds and other animals entangled in single-use face masks, and their stomachs full of plastic. Some will remember that plastics have been found in the depths of the sea, on top of Everest, on beaches in Indonesia and on riverbanks worldwide. These are the earth’s wonders, and this the mark that we leave as humanity—or could we leave another mark via this kind of legislation?

We see the impact of plastics on our own nation’s beautiful coastline. Microplastics are to be found in many of our indigenous aquatic species. The data demonstrate that, despite the campaigns against single-use plastics, the percentage of the plastic and polystyrene covered by the Bill continues to be high on our beaches and in our seas.

Almost everyone agrees that action is needed. But almost nobody wants their lifestyles to change at all, and that's the challenge, of course. We have a duty to safeguard people worldwide from the dangers of plastic waste, and it is clear that, although this Bill is an important step forward, and I do want to repeat that—it is an important step forward—it still isn’t sufficiently robust in terms of banning the manufacture of single-use plastics, as the Chair of the climate change committee has set out.

I am concerned that, in contrast to legislation recently passed in Scotland, Wales is banning only the supply rather than the manufacture of the listed items. We should be preventing the exportation of known pollutants to other countries too. The current definition of 'single use' could allow the supply of multipack or family-size products that include a number of individually packaged items as part of the product. It is particularly important to ensure that this definition is clear, without loopholes. Therefore, I’d like to hear at the end of the debate whether the Minister agrees that the definition of a single-use item should be amended to include the wording ‘conceived as single use’ to reflect the EU’s definition of single-use plastic products.

The committee has discussed in detail—again, this has already been described in the debate—the fact that wet wipes—I think that Llyr calls them 'wipes gwlyb'—are missing from the Bill. In its response to the previous committee’s inquiry into microplastics, Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water noted the scale of the problems caused by wet wipes in our sewers. If they're not banned, what more can the Government do and what more can society do to inform people of the damage that wet wipes cause?

As Delyth Jewell has already said, we now know that there are plastics in breast milk in about 70 per cent of the cases. So, this is obviously just the latest iteration of the problems we've created for ourselves, because it will also be in powdered milk, it'll be in cow's milk, it'll be in our bread because of the grain that's grown on land that has got plastic on it, and it will be in our meat and fish, for sure. So, we certainly need to act now to stop killing ourselves in this way.

I appreciate the soft approach that has been taken by the Government on plastic straws, because we took some interesting evidence from somebody representing the disabled community, who said that plastic straws were the most suitable way of drinking for certain people with certain disabilities. There's clearly not a problem of people in hospitals being offered plastic straws because, obviously, incinerated waste all goes in one way. There's obviously a much more complex problem, therefore, in the community when somebody goes into a cafe and says, 'My children want plastic straws.' We're going to need some pretty clear regulation around ensuring that the cafe owner or the waiter will be able to be clear as to when it's appropriate to have plastic straws, because obviously there are paper straws, there are reusable metal and wood straws. So, there are plenty of alternatives for most people, but I recognise that this is a softly, softly approach to engage with people to develop the alternatives, without disadvantaging disabled people.

One of the areas where we need some clarity is on oxo-degradables, because they are, as the explanatory memorandum makes really clear, just as big a menace as anything else. But, there is no actual definition of oxo-biodegradables, so this really is something that needs some collaboration between the Welsh Government, Westminster and the other devolved administrations, because it makes sense to have really clear labelling on this. At the moment, lots of people are green-washing their product by saying, 'This is biodegradable.' Yes, it might be in 200 years' time, but that's not really what we're talking about, is it?

So, obviously, I too would like to see rapid action on plastic in wet wipes and on sanitary products, because I'm afraid to say that people continue to, and will continue to, put wet wipes and sanitary products down the toilet because of their confused relationship with their bodies and not wanting to dispose of them elsewhere. There's a lot of evidence on that. So, we really do need to work on that, because absolutely, as has been said by Janet Finch-Saunders, they do block the sewers and create the fatbergs, so it costs us a hell of a lot of money to tidy it up.

Keep Wales Tidy highlighted that there were two plastics that were on the rise. One was these vaping canisters; we need to take action against that. And, secondly, fast food litter, which they said was as a result of the cost-of-living crisis. So, there really is a sobering relationship between what people think is the most economical way of feeding themselves or their family rather than actually just cooking a basic meal. But, that's not for this legislation, but something for dealing with elsewhere. Nevertheless, I think that there's a really important way in which we're going to need to deal with fast food outlets, and see what we can do to get them to incentivise people to bring in their own containers when they come to pick up a curry, rather than using other types of products. That obviously links this legislation in with the extended producer responsibilities, and our overarching commitment, which has to be to reduce, reuse and recycle.

Good afternoon, Minister. I welcome this Bill; it is a landmark Bill. It is always tempting, isn't it, when we do something well—and I think that that's definitely happened—to say, 'Well done, but what about—?', and I just have one of those, if I may. But, I do want to say thank you very much for the work that's been done, and thank you for the reports from the other committees as well. We know that this is an issue that you have worked on and that you're very, very committed to, as is your colleague.

I wanted, really, just to say two things. One is to highlight some of those fantastic community campaigns that have been happening. Surfers Against Sewage have been running a towns accreditation scheme, plastic-free towns, whereby, as we know, communities take steps to work with local businesses, community groups, schools, et cetera, to reduce their use of plastics and to recycle them in productive ways. Twenty-eight towns in Wales have been accredited or are working towards that accreditation, and I think it's really important that we recognise and give thanks for the work that has been done at that community level because it really is important that we raise that awareness and try to change that culture. Just three towns in our region that have done this: Lampeter, Llanidloes and Aberystwyth. Thank you to all of those towns and the people within them for the work that they've done.

So, the 'but', for me, if I may, Minister, is I wonder if I could put pressure on you to go further on the deposit-return scheme, commonly referred to as a bottle-return scheme. As we know, in Norway, the bottle-return scheme has led to 95 per cent of bottles being recycled, but the UK Government continues to drag their feet despite committing to a roll-out of the scheme. It's my view that, once again, perhaps, we in Wales should lead the way on this, and should plan and implement our own scheme in order that we can push further, faster and forward in terms of our commitment, rather than waiting for Westminster to take this further.

So, I do welcome the Bill and thank you for the work that's been done, and I look forward to working with the Welsh Government, and perhaps to continuing the discussion to see how we can go further and faster. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The Minister for Climate Change now to reply to the debate. Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I very much welcome all of the comments that have been made by Members today, and the spirit in which they've been made. Given time restraints, unfortunately I just do not have time to go through all of them. As I said in my opening remarks, I don't have time to go through every recommendation, but we will write back to the committees and I will make sure that a comprehensive response on each of the recommendations and the issues raised by various Members today pertaining to the committees will come back to you for perusal.

I just wanted to, very specifically, cover off the point from the Chair of the legislation and justice committee on the case study that they included, however. Very respectfully, Huw, I'm very sorry to say that we just don't agree that the legislation and justice committee's case study is an accurate representation of the position. Our position is very much that the provisions of the Bill are within competence, are fully effective and enforceable. So, that includes the provisions that make it an offence to supply a prohibited single-use, oxo-biodegradable plastic product to a consumer in Wales, and it includes the supply of those items from outside Wales, including from other UK nations. So, the Counsel General, sitting beside me today, has repeatedly set out that our position is that UKIMA, as we call it, cannot and does not operate to reserved matters that are clearly within the Senedd's competence. The Bill makes provision in relation to non-reserved matters and in relation to Wales. Both the Counsel General and the Llywydd have said that its provisions are within competence, and so we consider they are fully effective and enforceable, and the market access principles in UKIMA simply do not apply to them. So, I just wanted to make that really plain today.

I will just make a couple of other points. I very much welcome all of the Members' contributions about going further and faster on various products. As I said in the committee, we had 60-odd suggestions in our response. That is a published response; you can look it up on the website. You can see the number of items that people suggested. Everybody has mentioned them again here today. There are others. For example, I've been discussing with the health Minister a number of products in the health service that we definitely need to look at in more detail.

And just on the wet wipes issue, we have, of course, worked with the manufacturer in Flint and elsewhere—three plants in Wales, actually—but as I said in the committee, and I just remind Janet, one of the big issues for us is that you don't currently have to label the product to say that it has plastic in it. So, obviously, it's much more difficult to enforce if you aren't able to say, accurately, what's in it. So, I'm very much hoping that the UK will change the labelling regime, so that if you have a product that looks like it should be compostable or biodegradable, but in fact has plastic in it, that that should be very clearly stated on the label. We have an issue with wet wipes, for sure, but we also have an issue with some tea bags having plastic in them, and so on. So, products that contain a plastic, which makes them no longer biodegradable or no longer compostable, need to be clearly labelled, because otherwise what are we to do with them? I can’t emphasise that enough, and I’ll bring that up in every inter-ministerial group I'm in, and I hope, Janet, you'll be able to do that with the Government there in Westminster. I'm sure the committees will do it as well.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 7. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The proposal is to agree the motion under item 8, which is the financial resolution in relation to the Bill. Does any Member object the motion under item 8? No. That motion is also agreed.

That brings our business to a close. There will be no voting time.

Excellent timing, just before the kick-off of the football at 6 o'clock. Nothing left to do other than to say, 'Pob lwc Cymru'.