Plenary

The next item is the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Diolch, Llywydd. There are no changes to this week's business. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Minister, could I please request two statements? The first is from the Minister for health on increasing the availability of GP appointments in Wales. I know my colleague Sam Kurtz touched upon this earlier, but one of the biggest concerns of people in my region is the difficulty and frustration they face in making appointments to see their GP. In a move designed to ease pressure on GPs and to leave them with more time to see the most sick patients and those with complex issues, the health Secretary, Sajid Javid, has announced that the law will be changed so that patients will no longer need to see their family doctor to be signed off work. Pharmacists, nurses, occupational therapists and physiotherapists will be given powers to issue fit notes under reforms that will free up many more GP appointments and help alleviate the pressure that GPs currently face. The move has been welcomed by patient groups and the Royal College of General Practitioners, as it will allow more patients in south-east Wales to access more GP appointments. So, may I ask for a statement from the Minister for health on how this will change how we work here in Wales, for the benefit of GPs and patients alike?

The second part, Minister, is that I'd like to request a statement from the Minister for Climate Change about the proposed deposit-return scheme. Several businesses from across my region of south-east Wales and further afield have been in touch raising their concerns about the scheme. All of the businesses that I have spoken to are conscious of their environmental responsibilities; however, they fear that they will be hit with significant trading barriers because the Welsh Government intends to include glass in the scheme and pursue a digital DRS. One brewery told me that the scheme will impose significant costs on businesses, because including glass will require multiple labels and, consequently, businesses will struggle to cover the annual registration costs, producer fees, as well as labelling requirements. They also fear only big global brands will be able to adapt to the new rules more easily than smaller independent businesses, and that many companies will simply choose not to sell their products here in Wales. So, I'd be grateful, Minister, if you could please make a statement about what the Welsh Government is doing to address the legitimate concerns of businesses across Wales. Thank you.

Thank you. With regard to your first question around increasing GP appointments through the way that you suggested—it's not just a general practitioner that does certain things—you'll be aware that the Minister has been working very closely with all primary care professionals—so, pharmacists, for instance, where we have increased the number of provisions that they do. I'm not aware that this is something the Minister for Health and Social Services is looking at. She's obviously in the Chamber and will have heard your question, but, if she has anything further to add, I will ask her to write to you.

In response to your ask for a statement around a deposit-return scheme from the Minister for Climate Change, this is a piece of work that has now been going extensively. When I was back in the portfolio a couple of years ago, the deposit-return scheme, we were working on it across the UK, along with the UK Government and the Scottish Government as well. I appreciate what some companies will have said to you. Those are certainly responses that I recognise, and legitimate concerns. However, the scheme is being worked through. We're also doing a significant amount around extended producer responsibility, and I'm sure, when the scheme has been worked through, the Minister will be happy to do a written statement.

Thank you. Trefnydd, yesterday I visited Rhondda food bank and I have had many headteachers contacting me, gravely concerned about families in the region that I represent, and specifically concerned about what the situation will be over the summer. Clearly, the Minister and the First Minister have announced that there will be support available in terms of free school meals for families that are already in receipt of free school meals, but one of the concerns that has been expressed to me is those who fall between the cracks and those who perhaps aren't going to be able to benefit from the programmes that are run in the schools over the summer because of transport costs. We heard evidence last week as a children's committee that transport is a barrier for people to attend school, and it has an impact on attendance, so that will only deteriorate further over the summer without transport to schools available too. So, I'd like to ask for a statement from the education Minister before the summer for us to understand what the situation is and what provision there will be for families, for clarity.

Can I also draw your attention, please—? You'll also be aware that we, as Members of the Senedd, receive a note letting us know if the Minister is in our constituency or region. These are very useful so that we can prepare for those visits, or let a Minister know if we will be in attendance too, but the details aren't always in these statements. We only find out from some Ministers that they are in a region on a specific date, but we don't have any idea where they'll be in the region. So, can I ask for consistency in this information, please?

Both the Minister for Education and Welsh Language and the Minister for Social Justice, I know, are doing a great deal of work to support not just schools in relation to food being provided in school holidays in place of free school meals, but also to charity schemes as well. So, I'm not sure if there's any further work to update you upon ahead of the school holidays, but I will certainly—. Both the Ministers are in the Chamber and will have heard your request.

You should certainly always receive notification—every Member should—when a Minister is in your constituency or region, and I will certainly ask for private offices to be reminded that it is really important that this information goes out, and to ensure officials are aware as well, because consistency is really important. And I think it's also nice for Members to let other Members know when they're in their constituencies also.

The Minister will be well aware of some of the issues pertaining to Bryn Group in Gelligaer in my constituency, which affects the communities of Gelligaer, Pen-y-bryn and Nelson. We had a very effective liaison committee that was established by Caerphilly County Borough Council that ended just before the pandemic began. I'm trying to get the liaison committee re-established, with the cross-party support of local councillors, and I'm finding a lot of resistance from officers of the council, for reasons I can't understand. One of the things they're saying is that a liaison committee would somehow be unlawful. I'd like a statement from the Counsel General on that, because I don't think that's the case.

Would the Trefnydd support the principle of liaison committees in these circumstances? She knows in her other brief how useful they've been, and would she make it clear that, actually, this is a very helpful way of resolving some of those issues that are affecting those communities?

Thank you. Yes, certainly, from a planning point of view, I absolutely agree such liaison committees are very useful in practice. They help de-escalate community tensions where businesses are operating very close to communities. And I certainly think, where they work well—and they do work well in many places—they certainly help with that. They're certainly not unlawful. I think it's a shame that you haven't been able to get that cross-party support, and I would urge you to continue to do so, but I'm sure there is guidance available to assist you.

Minister, I would like to ask the Government to schedule a debate on bus services and the important role they play in supporting active travel, with positive impacts on the environment and connecting communities. Recently, the bus operator, Easyway, announced they will cease trading on 31 July, which comes as a huge blow to the communities in Bridgend that have relied on their bus services. We will lose three routes and, according to the council, no other company has come forward to fill the gap. We need a debate about how it is possible to reach our targets for active travel and climate change action when our bus services are so fractured. Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, and the Member raises a very important point. I'm sure all of us, as Members of this Senedd, receive a huge amount of correspondence regarding bus services from our constituents. As you're aware, the Welsh Government will be bringing forward some legislation around bus travel in this term of Government.

I'd like to ask for a debate in Government time, please, on the strategic priorities and objectives statement to Ofwat. I understand it will be laid in front of the Senedd next week, but, in the past, there hasn't been a debate on the process, but recently, in Westminster, there was a debate. I'd like to make sure that MSs have the same opportunity to discuss and challenge the process, because it helps to determine how our water systems are regulated, how the environment will be protected, how vulnerable customers will be protected or otherwise in their water bills, if they need it. It's really serious stuff, I'm sure you'll agree, and it shouldn't just be nodded through. We've had debates recently on flooding, on storm overflow systems, and the impact of sewage in our rivers. We know that major investment work is needed to protect that and to protect against climate change, and this is really a matter of public safety and there needs to be investment now.

So, could we have a debate on this, please, because I fear that making a decision on an England-and-Wales basis won't work and it won't make sense, because Dŵr Cymru isn't a company that just sends profits to shareholders; they reinvest, they support vulnerable customers? The SPS is the only opportunity we have to make sure that the process and the final decision make sense for Wales. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. The Member raises a really important point, particularly around Dŵr Cymru. There won't be time to undertake such a statement in Government business time ahead of the summer recess, but I will certainly ask the Minister for Climate Change to consider a request for a written statement.

Trefnydd, I've had an e-mail recently from a volunteer in the Cardiff office of the legal charity Support Through Court, which, for the last eight years, has been funded by the Ministry of Justice. This isn't just a Cardiff problem; these are volunteers who support people throughout Wales who are having to grapple with the civil justice system. And it would appear that the Ministry of Justice is planning on changing the way they fund the civil justice system, and they're now going to have a system of competition, which means that the small number of volunteers, supported by a very small sum of money, could simply be forced to cease their activities and close, which means that the 5,000 clients they supported last year, and the 700 face-to-face contacts they've had with individuals so far this year—that service could simply disappear. So, I wonder if we could have a statement from the Counsel General on what the implications would be of the loss of funding for Support Through Court, because this is an incredibly stressful thing for anybody to have to do, and legal aid simply doesn't cover most people. So, I think this is a really serious matter, and I wondered if we could have a statement as soon as possible.

Thank you. You've certainly raised a very important issue, and I know it's a real matter of concern to the Welsh Government that the service provided by Support Through Court in Cardiff civil justice centre does really appear to be at real risk of being withdrawn. There's no guarantee it would be replaced. I am aware that the Counsel General did raise this issue directly with the new justice Minister, Lord Bellamy, about the uncertainty of future funding, to press home how important this was. The Ministry of Justice advise that voluntary sector future grant funds for helping litigants in person understand court processes when attending court will be the subject of open competition, as you said. So, what is not clear at this stage is what it will mean for the provision of services in Wales. The Counsel General has committed to continuing to engage with the Ministry of Justice and will consider the request for a statement.

In mid May, James Evans asked a topical question about the Government's purchase of Gilestone Farm in his constituency. In response, the economy Minister stressed the importance of protecting the Green Man brand, and emphasised that the purchase was to do with keeping the Green Man festival in Wales. The Minister underscored the importance of the brand and the festival. However, in his response a week later, the First Minister said that it was about developing other elements within the Green Man business, and not the festival. So, I and many others have been wondering which is it: is the proposal to lease it to the company for festival purposes, or is it to lease it to the company for other purposes, and what are those other purposes? Finally, I note that the Minister said at the time that the Government didn't pay above market value for Gilestone, and the amount paid was £4.25 million. However, this sales brochure here shows it for sale for £3.25 million—£1 million less than what the Government paid for it. So, can I ask that the economy Minister brings an update to the Senedd regarding the business plan for Gilestone, and also clarifies what the Government did to verify that the property value was correct?

Thank you. So, the Welsh Government is still awaiting the business plan, and what the Welsh Government will require and expects from that business plan is for Green Man to set out the activities to be undertaken throughout the year on the site. And that will include also how the land will continue to be farmed. So, as I say, we are still waiting for that business plan.

As everybody heads out for the summer to make the best of the great outdoors that we have here in Wales, could we have a statement on Welsh Government support, past and going forward, for Adventure Smart Cymru? It's a brilliant website, platform, social media presence that seeks to promote safe, healthy outdoor activities—hill walking, mountain biking, paddle boarding, canoeing, boating, open-water swimming, and more—by providing people with safe, up-to-date, reliable information about how to make the most of the outdoors, but to do it safely and to minimise, I have to say, the impact on mountain rescue or the coastguard service, or anybody else, not getting themselves into trouble as well.

Could we also have a statement on the extended review of the learner travel policy in Wales? It's been extended, for good reasons, to take in more thoughts on a slightly extended remit as well. I met with parents last night in my own constituency, keen to feed in their views around the 3-mile criteria for secondary schools and how this has to relate to safe routes to schools as well. I'm keen to say that, in their thoughts, 2 miles would be more appropriate, particularly for some of the younger children. So, an update on that and when we'll hear back from that review would be very, very helpful.

Thank you. I think you've just reminded us that, despite many benefits to individuals, and of course to Wales, we should be very keenly aware of the potential risks associated with outdoor recreation, and informing and educating visitors on enjoying the outdoors safely is a really important aspect of what we do to promote the great outdoors here in Wales. Welsh Government have supported NRW in the development and promotion of the countryside code and a series of activity-specific codes, as well as funding campaigns promoting responsible recreation, such as Visit Wales's Addo campaign.

In relation to learner travel policy, as you mentioned, an initial review of the Measure took place back in 2020-21, and that concluded at the end of the previous Government term, a year ago. So, from the initial review it was very clear, I think, that a more detailed and more thorough review of the Measure was required. So, I know officials are presently putting in place a comprehensive engagement programme that will ensure all relevant stakeholders to the wider learner travel Wales review do have that opportunity to fully input and be engaged. So, stakeholders will shortly be invited to a range of engagement events that will look in greater detail at the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008 in its form currently, and I think it's really important that we have constituents—if they too want to put into that review, it would be very welcome.

We now move on to item 3, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Refugee Week 2022: Healing. I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Thank you. This week we mark Refugee Week. This is an opportunity to celebrate the wonderful contributions sanctuary seekers bring to Wales. The celebrations will bring together people from all backgrounds to help create better understanding between communities and promote integration.

Since we celebrated Refugee Week last year, the plight of those who are forced to leave their country to flee war or persecution has been highlighted more than ever, with the evacuation of Afghanistan and war in Ukraine to name just two of many world events affecting so many people. I've delivered several statements in relation to our support for people from Ukraine recently, and will continue to do so. However, I want to focus on our broader support for our sanctuary seekers today.

We are privileged to offer sanctuary to those who arrive in Wales, to take a compassionate approach to integration, understanding the trauma they have faced. Wales has enjoyed a long history of welcoming refugees, and we continue to value and benefit from their skills, entrepreneurial spirit and the sharing of their cultures. In this Refugee Week we reiterate our ambition to make Wales a nation of sanctuary. I've been truly heartened to see how this has come to life over the past three years, since I launched our nation of sanctuary plan in January 2019—a plan that does not belong solely to the Welsh Government, but to all the people and institutions who make up our country and want to give what they can for a humanitarian purpose. We have seen this through an inspiring response to the COVID pandemic, the evacuation of Afghanistan and recently the Ukraine war: members of the public, local authorities, charities, faith leaders and organisations across Wales coming forward to support those who need help. This kindness embodies what we mean by being a nation of sanctuary.

Our unique approach in Wales, often referred to as 'team Wales' has led to many innovative ways of working. I am particularly grateful to Urdd Gobaith Cymru for genuinely embodying their long humanitarian response and purpose by stepping up and offering temporary accommodation to those desperately in need, first from Afghanistan and now from Ukraine. I have visited two of our welcome centres for Ukrainian refugees, including the Urdd yesterday, with the First Minister, witnessing the warm welcome they provide for Ukrainian refugees and the wraparound support with the local authority, health board staff and volunteers. Many families will remember their stay with the Urdd, and many have gone on to learn Welsh as part of their resettlement journey. The Urdd are, therefore, deserved winners of the First Minister’s special award at this year’s St David’s awards.

Once again, a fitting theme has been chosen for this year’s Refugee Week: healing. Whilst every sanctuary seeker will have their own personal story, all would share a common goal of surviving and the courage to rebuild their lives. And we know that part of the healing process for many is about restarting their lives and integrating with their community. We want this to start from day one of their arrival. The nation of sanctuary plan sets out the actions we are undertaking to ensure inequalities experienced by these communities are reduced, access to opportunities increased, and relations between these communities and wider society improved.

Our successful ReStart project, which ended on 31 March 2022, delivered support to 853 refugees over the three years. We have continued to fund ESOL hubs in Wales to ensure sanctuary seekers and refugees can access classes in Wales to improve and enhance their language skills. We are working to encourage businesses to consider recruiting refugees to make their workplaces inclusive of their needs.

Schools are starting to achieve schools of sanctuary status, providing a welcoming place of safety for all, making children feel part of the school's community, helping with the healing process. In March, I was delighted to join St Cyres School in Penarth, to present their award in becoming a school of sanctuary.

We have continued to provide funding to the Welsh Refugee Council and its partners to deliver our Wales sanctuary service and move-on services. We've also funded Asylum Justice to continue to provide legal advice and Housing Justice Cymru to expand hosting capacity across Wales. We've provided free access to internet at all asylum accommodation across Wales throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, and continue to do so, which has meant people have been able to connect with their family members, keep studying, and continue to access vital health information and updates. We provided free transport to refugees to allow them to integrate with Welsh communities, and we are currently reviewing the next stage of those schemes.

Every individual action—some of which I have outlined in this statement—brings us closer to becoming a nation of sanctuary and reaffirms the welcoming and caring reputation of our country. We stand with refugees from across the world, regardless of how they arrived. The UK Government policy to send people to Rwanda and the Nationality and Borders Act 2022 will be detrimental to the healing process and divisive. It is our moral duty to enable people to seek safety and find an inclusive welcome here in Wales.

Focus should be on improving the asylum system, not finding new ways to make the system more challenging and prolonged for people seeking safety. The decision by the Home Office to use electronic tagging is abhorrent and completely against our position as a nation of sanctuary. Those vulnerable people who come to our country seeking safety and sanctuary should be treated with dignity and respect, not tagged and criminalised. Safe and legal routes must be developed for asylum seekers to claim asylum from outside the UK, negating the need for perilous journeys and disrupting the business model of people smugglers.

Men, women and children arrive in the UK because of existing family or kinship ties, their ability to speak English, or as a consequence of cultural connections often linked to former British colonialism. We stand with refugees from across the world, regardless of how they have arrived. We celebrate how they enrich our communities in Wales, how their own healing journey turns to success, and how we benefit from this as a nation of sanctuary.

Thank you, Minister, for your statement today and I believe that everyone here is going to agree wholeheartedly with most of your sentiments. I would like to start by saying that recognising the plight of refugees is a fundamental part of our humanity and it is right for us to take action to help those fleeing conflict and persecution, and Refugee Week is a time for us to reflect on our own actions as to how we have helped those who have come in need and have asked for our help.

It is overwhelming to think that the number of forcibly displaced people around the world now stands at more than 100 million, and I would like to pay tribute to all those who work tirelessly to help refugees across the world. There are still so many who will be unknown to us who have given so much to help others. Refugee Week is a fantastic opportunity to bring communities together and encourage better understanding, and there is no better way than through art, culture and educational events to celebrate the contribution of refugees to the United Kingdom.

With this in mind, this year's theme of 'healing' is rather poignant. When we look at the Ukraine conflict, as with so many other conflicts, although the immediate concern is to get people to safety, we have to be aware of the long-term questions of how we deal with repairing and rebuilding the lives of refugees, and how we heal the impact of conflict without masking the suffering or forgetting the trauma. The process, ultimately, comes down to forgiveness, but this is much easier to say than to do, especially when so much pain, suffering and hurt has been caused.

We must be well aware that the healing process should not only extend to the psychological trauma of fleeing your country or being separated from family or losing loved ones, but also to the loss of community, to the potential loss of identity, and to the loss of home, and that all these issues affect people in different ways. We must also be mindful that the manifestation of many of these issues will be hidden. Depression, suicide, family breakdown, PTSD and health problems may well eclipse people's lives as they try to heal from their experiences.

Every nation in the world that deals with refugees faces similar problems, in that refugees rarely look for asylum in small numbers. Refugees are often fleeing for their lives in thousands and, as we have seen from the Ukraine and Russian conflict, in the millions. This creates problems with how responding countries deal with the overwhelming numbers. Whilst we are all horror struck at the plight of refugees, we need to be aware that Governments have the unenviable task to try and deal with refugees as best as they can, in light of the situation they're in, which is often extremely complex. And they have to do so objectively, which, unfortunately, often sees them accused of lacking empathy and emotion, but we have to be mindful that when the correct processes are in place, they achieve much more, and even though the systems may not always work at first, there is always an opportunity to evaluate, reflect and improve. And this, Minister, brings me to my first question.

Diolch yn fawr, Joel James. And thank you for your support, in principle, for the statement, and for us being a nation of sanctuary. Thank you for acknowledging Refugee Week, and also, I'm sure, implicit in many of your comments, about the fact that for Refugee Week the theme is healing, and that is particularly important in terms of the trauma that so many refugees and asylum seekers are facing when they come and we welcome them to this country.

I think, in the past year, we were not anticipating, but we fully responded, as a country, in terms of the Afghan refugees and their arrival here, working on a Team Wales basis, which actually included some of the armed forces who had been involved in the ARAP scheme, where there were interpreters who they'd worked with, with those who are based in Wales, to ensure that we could provide the best possible support to Afghan refugees. We've welcomed approximately 700 people from Afghanistan and many of them, the majority of them, are now resettled across Wales. And also, now, of course, we are supporting our Ukrainian refugees as well.

What is important, and it goes to answer some of your questions, is that our vision is about making Wales not just welcoming to migrants, but harnessing the opportunities that migration brings to help our economy and communities to thrive. Actually, it's about a nation of sanctuary and being able to help those who are dispersed or resettled in Wales to make sure that they access those services and that they can integrate with communities from day one. And that means, of course, access to information on their rights and entitlements, including sections on health, education and employment, and much of that has been made available on our website.

You ask about the asylum rights programme. The Welsh Refugee Council has recently been awarded funding for the Wales sanctuary service, which replaces the asylum rights programme, which is in place from 1 April 2022 for at least three years. I think that's important to demonstrate that we're moving forward, learning from the lessons of how we've funded the services up until that point, but ensuring that it is the Wales sanctuary service that is embedded in the work that they're doing.

In my statement, I did comment on the fact that we've taken forward our free transport scheme, and it is important to recognise that that's something that was a pilot, which is now being evaluated, which we're taking forward in terms of recognising that this has been very important for our refugees, particularly those coming from Ukraine, alongside all our refugees in Wales. I think that it is important, just in terms of evaluating the transport scheme, that we look at the pilot. The Welsh Refugee Council ran a pilot of free transport for asylum seekers from January to March. Surveys were undertaken with those who were using the pilot to understand the benefits and the impact of having free transport for asylum seekers, funding was identified and taken forward for further access to free transport, but also it was about making sure that we could look to our transport colleagues as well, because this is something that they have got to embed into their policies and their schemes. Initial feedback has concluded that access to free transport has helped asylum seekers to access opportunities that are not achievable in their weekly budget. And it's about access to visiting places of interest, healthcare appointments, ESOL classes, visiting friends—all of which are important in terms of integration and well-being.

Thank you for the statement, Minister, to mark Refugee Week.

I'm looking forward to attending the Home Away From Home exhibition in the National Waterfront Museum in Swansea later this week, which is a celebration of the people and organisations who've been involved in making Swansea a city of sanctuary for over 10 years.

Getting to a safe place, of course, is only the first step—an often perilous and exhausting step—on a long journey for refugees, both literally and figuratively, which, as we've seen in recent weeks, is made even harder by Governments like those in power in Westminster, which dehumanise refugees, which devalue and deny human rights to those who've often experienced violence and persecution while on that journey towards sanctuary and normality, a journey that most of us can't even begin to imagine. After surviving that, after coping with that, then there is the incredibly difficult but key task of making a new life in a new country, the first step to healing, and being unable to do so is what too many refugees find frustratingly and impossibly challenging.

We have now seen how Wales has welcomed the chance to provide aid and sanctuary to those fleeing Ukraine and other nations, such as Afghanistan and Syria in the past. The response from ordinary people in Wales has been so heartening, but we heard from the Minister last week about some of the difficulties around other parts of the journey towards a new life. A few weeks ago, I asked you, Minister, about the provision of mental health support available to refugees arriving in Wales. Specifically, I wanted you to provide figures on waiting times and lists for those trying to access those support services, after it was revealed that, on a UK level, some refugees are waiting up to two years to access trauma support. I was therefore wondering if you could be able, today, to provide figures or estimates as to the situation on this in Wales. In your response also, you noted that the Welsh Government were exploring options to provide additional mental health and well-being support at the welcome centres, so I was wondering if any progress has been made with this and what the timescale will be on that.

I want to take this opportunity to put on record Plaid Cymru's thanks to the campaigners, organisations and human rights lawyers who succeeded in challenging and stopping the first flight due to take those seeking asylum from the UK to Rwanda under a despicable, immoral policy, which we know would've had devastating and dangerous consequences for those who are our brothers and sisters. Doctors Without Borders conducted mental health sessions with refugees and asylum seekers who'd been forcibly removed from Australia by way of a similar policy, to indefinite detention centres on Nauru island. Doctors Without Borders found some of the worst mental health suffering they had encountered in 50 years of experience of supporting refugees. Children as young as nine were having suicidal thoughts, committing acts of self-harm or even attempting suicide. If the Tory Westminster Government continues to play political games with the lives of those seeking our help and protection, we are putting these people at risk of a horrifying mental health collapse, like we saw in Australia.

Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. Swansea is a remarkable city of sanctuary. I remember visiting both universities and Gower College and the work that they've done. I think Julie James was involved as well, probably in her constituency capacity. It's absolutely thriving, and I'm sure that exhibition will be vivid and powerful. In fact, Joel James mentioned the ways in which during Refugee Week we often do celebrate the cultural and artistic contributions from our refugees, and we do that in recognition of their skill, talent and the cultural lessons and learning from that.

Your questions are key to how we can call ourselves a nation of sanctuary, aren't they? In terms of support, particularly for those, as you say, who've come here with perilous journeys and trauma—of course, yesterday, the First Minister and I met many at the Urdd welcome centre, and the Counsel General and I visited another welcome centre—and also leaving behind, for the Ukrainians, their husbands and partners who are fighting in the war, the journeys that they've taken, the new life in our country has to be powerful in terms of the support that we give. Actually, a strong word that was coming from many of the refugees yesterday was that they felt that the experience that they had at the Urdd was 'healing'. They didn't know that this was necessarily the word that has been the theme. They felt it was healing—the environment, the care and the compassion.

There has to be access to mental health support. In the welcome centres, in both the ones I visited, I met with nurses from the community mental health teams, and also in terms of other needs—health checks for those who are attending the welcome centres. There's no waiting when you go to a welcome centre, you see the teams. And, of course, they're registering with GPs. But the nurses were saying how privileged they felt to be able to offer this kind of support at this time. That's the expression of a nation of sanctuary by the professionals.

For those who are staying with sponsor families, I will look into this further in terms of access to mental health services, because clearly, in terms of the welcome that we're seeking to give—the health board, the local authorities—it's crucial that we can be held to account as to what it is that's been provided, but also give you reassurance on that. I certainly have found in my feedback that that access has been able to be delivered.

I'll just go on to some of the other points that you made about services once people come to Wales. Clearly, on the biometric centre and the fact that there was no chance of an appointment and there's only one in Cardiff, that is a UK Government responsibility. I will raise that with the Minister for Refugees, Lord Harrington. I meet with him and my Scottish colleague weekly or fortnightly, and I will raise this with them. But also, it's unacceptable that there's that delay, because those who are coming and are refugees want to work, they want to get on with their lives.

As far as ESOL classes are concerned—the education Minister has joined us as well—I know that universities, local authorities and the third sector are offering support, so I'll get an update on what's happening over the summer holidays. I'll certainly be doing another statement before the end of this term, I hope—if not oral, then written, an update—because ESOL is crucial for integration.

I want to finally thank you for your comments about the cruel, cruel policies that this UK Government is enacting to try to send asylum seekers to Rwanda, a cruel and inhumane response to those who seek sanctuary in the UK, and diametrically opposite to our nation of sanctuary approach here in Wales. The UN Refugee Agency is clear that the measures in the Nationality and Borders Act, the offshoring, are at odds with the refugee convention. The UK is a signatory to that. But also, again, there's the tagging as well. Numbers crossing the channel via small boats may be high recently, but the overall number of asylum seekers arriving in the UK is down on previous years, despite the rhetoric—and it is rhetoric—suggesting otherwise. Those who arrive here to seek sanctuary are seeking it because they're vulnerable, and they should be treated with dignity and respect, not treated like a criminal. I do welcome those statement and comments widely condemning this, including from the church. I was very pleased to read the statement from the Bishop of Llandaff, the Right Rev June Osborne. She said:

John Griffiths. If I could have short questions and short answers, please, because we've got a long day ahead. Thank you.

Indeed. Thank you very much, Minister, for your statement and your work. I think Wales has made great strides in the way that we welcome asylum seekers and refugees here and look after them and provide the necessary services when they are in our country. It's very good to see, and I think the nation of sanctuary provides a very good framework and focus for that sort of work.

Minister, Newport East is diverse. I was very interested to bump into a young woman, a Ukrainian refugee, at a local parkrun in Newport. She was there with the woman that she is placed with, as it were, and they obviously got on very well and the household were enjoying Ukrainian potato pancakes, which apparently are very tasty. The young woman is a doctor and she's improving her English and very much looking forward to contributing within the Welsh national health service. It was a very positive picture indeed, and it was very good to see. I know we've seen similar positive stories around refugees from Afghanistan, for example. It's absolutely right that these people are having that level of service and welcome, but it's not the same for refugees and asylum seekers from all parts of the world and we have to make sure that it is consistently of that quality. In that respect, Minister, I'd very much echo the comments made about ESOL, because I think that is absolutely vital and we have to make sure that the provision is consistently good right across Wales.

I also think that around Refugee Week we can do more and perhaps we could have more of a campaign to get the right messages across in terms of asylum seekers and refugees, perhaps working with the local press and others, because there are lots of misconceptions, misinformation, and that undermines the sort of welcome that we want to see in our communities. Positive stories about the contributions that asylum seekers and refugees make can be very powerful and help shape perceptions in the right way, Minister, but I think it does need to be co-ordinated and led, and I think that is a role for Welsh Government.

Thank you very much. I don't think I need to answer. They weren't questions; it was a very, very important statement. I think it just shows that the fact that I'm doing a statement here today on Welsh Refugee Week is important, and that, actually, we've had strong cross-party recognition of what it means to be a nation of sanctuary.

There's just one point that I would say. It's great that you had this refugee doctor from Ukraine in your constituency. I actually met a dentist who was also in a welcome centre in your area. They could work in our NHS, couldn't they, so they're already being put in touch with the organisation Displaced People in Action, who have supported refugee doctors over the last 22 years, because I helped set that up when I was health Minister all those years ago. So, many of those refugee doctors are now working in the NHS. But, for the contribution that refugees want to make, are desperate to make, often there are barriers. We've got to break down those barriers. We'll look at ESOL and the consistency of the offer across Wales. Sadly, in the funding that we're getting from the UK Government for the Ukrainian refugees, there is no funding for ESOL. There was for Afghan refugees; there's no funding for Ukrainian refugees. So, again, we're having to find that money.

Thank you.

I move on now to item 4, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership on Pride and progress on the LGBTQ+ action plan. Hannah Blythyn.

Diolch. Pride Month this year marks 50 years since the first UK Pride; 50 years since Saturday 1 July 1972 when people came together to take that first step and bring Pride to the streets of London. Five decades on, we can be proud of how far we've come on LGBTQ+ rights thanks to the activists and allies that came before us. But, we cannot be complacent, with LGBTQ+ communities under attack and our hard-fought-for rights at risk of being rolled back around the world, including, shamefully, here in the UK.

Pride was born out of the need and the will to protest, to fight for equal rights, to be seen, to be ourselves, to be respected, to stand together as a community and to demand an end to discrimination. There is still more to do, and so we have a responsibility to redouble our commitment to continue to change history for the better, here and abroad, and to create a future where we recognise and realise Wales as the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe.

As a Government, we stand with our LGBTQ+ communities. That's why LGBTQ+ rights are embedded in our programme for government, are a key component of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, and why we are developing our bold action plan. This plan strengthens protections for LGBTQ+ people, promotes equality for all, and helps co-ordinate actions across Government, communities and the country.

Our aim is to publish the action plan this autumn, and we are making progress not just on the plan itself but, importantly, putting commitments into practice. We are fulfilling our commitments to support Pride organisations in Wales. Our support for Pride Cymru continues and, for the first time, we have provided funding to grass-roots Pride events across Wales. We have already given support to Swansea Pride and North Wales Pride, and discussions are under way with Pride in the Port in Newport.

We are enabling more inclusive education, with Welsh Government providing national guidance for schools by the end of this year to help them fully support transgender pupils. This is being done as part of the whole-school approach to relationships and sexuality education, and we want to make it clear that Welsh Government has not endorsed any third party guidance in this area. Recently, our support has enabled Stonewall Cymru and Peniarth to translate into Welsh two books on LGBTQ+ families. The books, distributed to primary schools, will ensure classrooms have access to inclusive literature reflecting the diversity of Wales.

Progress has also been made in sexual health through the HIV action plan for Wales, published for consultation last week. The plan aims to reach the target of zero new HIV transmissions by 2030, to tackle stigma and improve the quality of life of people living with HIV.

Forty years ago, gay people were subject to hateful slurs and prejudiced attacks. Trans people today are being subjected to a similar barrage of hate-fuelled tirades. Extending rights for one group does not mean eroding rights from another. We do not believe improving rights for trans women will damage rights for cisgender women and girls. Our trans communities are hurting, they're afraid, and they're experiencing harm. As a society, we can and must do better than this.

So, we continue to develop our gender service in Wales, which reports shorter waiting times for first assessment than comparable NHS gender services in England and is committed to reducing waiting times further. We are also committed to improving the pathway for transgender young people in Wales. The Welsh Health Specialised Services Committee, responsible for the service, will look at available evidence to further define the clinical service model for the future, and community voices will be front and centre to this work.

In line with our co-operation agreement commitment, we will also seek to devolve additional powers to improve lives and protect transgender people. Our commitment to support LGBTQ+ people seeking sanctuary in Wales and meet our international duty to show leadership on equality has never been more important. We have written to UK Government expressing our horror at their plans to send asylum seekers to Rwanda. This would be devastating for LGBTQ+ people, placing them at risk of ill treatment, discrimination, arbitrary arrest, and detention.

So, LGBTQ+ issues beyond our borders remain crucial to us and, whilst Wales's qualification for the World Cup is to be celebrated, the host country's appalling stance on LGBTQ+ rights cannot be overlooked. Many will not feel safe to travel, or will choose not to in support of Qatar's own LGBTQ+ communities, who cannot live openly and freely as themselves. We will look to use our platform to engage and influence on these important matters.

We are committed to leaving no stone unturned when it comes to banning conversion practices for LGBTQ+ people. We will not abandon our trans communities, as UK Government has done, nor will we just talk the talk when it comes to action. Working with Plaid Cymru, we are undertaking complex work, including seeking legal advice to determine all the levers we have for a ban in Wales, developing our campaign to raise awareness of support services and the horrors of conversion practices, and our plans to establish a working group of experts are under way.

During my recent visit to meet with the Digon group from Ysgol Plasmawr in Cardiff, I asked the students what message they would want me to share in a statement here to mark Pride Month. The message was clear: 'I don't just want to be tolerated, I want to be celebrated.' This Pride Month, and every month, the greatest tribute we can pay to the pioneers that paved the way is to continue to speak up, stand up and play our own part in achieving a fairer future where we feel safe, are supported, with our rights secured, and celebrated.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement, and can I offer my sincere thanks to all those who have worked so hard in producing the action plan so far? I have a few brief questions, if I may, regarding some of the actions. Minister, you will know that suicide is the biggest killer of young people under the age of 35 in the UK, and it disproportionately affects members of the LGBTQ+ community. Moreover, we know that, on average, over five young people take their lives each day, over 200 schoolchildren are lost to suicide every year, and that research has shown that, with the appropriate early intervention and support, suicide by young people can be prevented. It is mentioned in the proposed action plan that there is to be an undertaking of targeted public health work to combat issues for LGBTQ+ people who are disproportionately at risk, including on substance misuse, sexual health and mental health. We're also aware that there are those who are part of the LGBTQ+ community who live in fear of being outed by engaging with any project or being seen to be involved with initiatives, and I'm wondering what specific actions this Government is looking to take to tackle the mental health issues of those who are hidden within the LGBTQ+ community in order to help combat this.

Secondly, I want to understand better what is meant by creating

'a more homogenised approach to private workplace training resources'

so that workplaces can become more LGBTQ+ inclusive. What do you actually mean by a 'homogenised approach'? Why have you decided this is the best course of action? I ask this because I've always taken the view that a one-size-fits-all approach does not allow for the flexibility that is needed, and a fixed model of training will not necessarily suit all the different industries and work cultures that we have. As you have said, discrimination in the workplace remains widespread, which, as we know, is driven by the fear of the unknown, and fear of something different. So, how will this training specifically aim to educate people and change discriminatory behaviour?

Finally, Minister, I wanted to add my words to your positive statement regarding Pride. Pride themes change not only year to year, but from place to place, to reflect and celebrate the community. However, the overreaching message is always the same—whilst we are different, we are also all the same. Although we like and are good at different things and we love different people, we are all human, and we should never be persecuted or judged or treated differently because of those differences. Instead, we should celebrate what makes us unique and what makes us individuals, because, if we do, we can achieve amazing things by including everyone and making the most of our diversity for humankind. Thank you, Minister.

Can I thank the Member for those warm words of support for Pride at the end of his contribution there, and also very much welcome the supportive comments around what we're trying to do in the LGBTQ+ action plan? I'd be more than happy, as we develop the plan, to discuss certain elements that the Member might have a specific interest in. As we do that over the coming weeks and months, I'm more than happy to do that, and I think it's really important that, in this place here, in this Chamber, we do take a very different tone and a very different approach than perhaps elsewhere in terms of standing together to do the right thing.

If I just touch on a couple of specific points you made, Altaf, in that contribution, you're right to highlight the very real challenges that the LGBTQ+ community face in terms of challenges with mental health, isolation. It can stem from a variety of things. We know that it has been exacerbated, perhaps, during the pandemic for people who may have had to remain living with people who they were maybe not out to, who they were not able to be themselves with, or perhaps in an environment that was less than friendly towards them. So, we have done—. As well as what's outlined in the action plan, there is a piece of work that we've been doing to look at the impact of COVID-19 on the LGBTQ+ community particularly. So, it's hoped that can feed into the broader work of the action plan. But I think you make a really valid point, which I'm sure our officials and our experts are already taking forward, in terms of actually making sure people know where the support and resources are and that, if they don't feel able to, they don't have to put their hand up and declare who they are if they don't feel comfortable at that point in life in doing it to be able to access certain services. So, I think there's a really, really important and valid point there.

On LGBTQ+ friendly and inclusive workplaces, I think, absolutely, we spend so much of our time and our life at work, in a workplace, and I know from my own personal experience that, at the point when I was able to be out and be myself at work, I suddenly was not just happier at work, but I was probably more productive; I wanted to be there. And I think when you're in that situation sometimes where you don't feel that you can be yourself, you expend so much energy on that, rather than energy on more positive things, things that you could focus on. So, that's a really important strand of what we're doing. You talk about a homogenous approach, and I recognise what you say, that one size doesn't fit all, but I think it's about having that parity and equality of support and resource for workplaces, whether they be in the public or private sector—and the voluntary sector, of course. And we know that there are really good examples of best practice. We see it in those major organisations, businesses, in Wales who are recognised for their networks and their inclusivity. And we also know that, within the trade union movement, there are a lot of good equality courses there and support for members, and that's another way to facilitate and to disseminate that information within the workplace.

Thank you very much for the statement, Deputy Minister.

I'm proud that the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru commits the Welsh Government to making Wales the most LGBTQ+ friendly nation in Europe and to calling for the powers to legislate to improve the lives and protect the safety of trans people in Wales to be devolved. It's clear how crucial those commitments are, given how hate crimes against people based on sexual orientation have risen every year in England and Wales since 2016. And figures from Gwent Police, North Wales Police and South Wales Police retrieved by an FOI by BBC Wales have also shown this trend of increasing sexual orientation and transphobic hate crimes in the last year.

I'm glad the Deputy Minister made specific reference in her statement to the way trans people are being made subject to rising intolerance and hate. We must have powers to better protect trans people here in Wales, and I look forward to further progress on this. I also believe that trans women are women and that the way that trans women are being excluded by sporting bodies, whether you agree with it as a method of ensuring fairness or not, is emboldening those who are using sport as a cover for their transphobia and prejudice. When considered together with the mental health issues and suicide rates for trans people, and the tiny proportion of trans athletes who compete in elite sports, it seems that decisions to ban transgender athletes are, in the words of one of America's foremost sports journalists, Dan Wolken, a solution in search of a problem. Sport has such a key role in promoting an inclusive, diverse reflection of our world's citizens, including transgender athletes. So, how are we in Wales, as so rightly put by the students of Ysgol Gyfun Plasmawr's Digon group, going to celebrate our trans citizens who are athletes? I would like to know therefore, Deputy Minister, what conversations you have had with sports organisations and bodies in Wales about the ramifications of the decision taken by FINA and the statements made by Nadine Dorries, that she will encourage UK sporting bodies to follow FINA's lead.

And staying with sport, I was also glad to hear the Deputy Minister reference our responsibility as a nation to call out prejudice and persecution beyond Wales, and the need to ensure our concerns about Qatar's awful record on LGBTQ+ rights are clearly voiced when our national team, and their supporting staff, and Welsh fans, travel there for the World Cup.

So, could the Deputy Minister please outline exactly what conversations she's had with other Governments, the FAW, and other stakeholders regarding this issue? How will we engage with and try to influence a state that can prevent LGBT people from entering their country, or deport LGBT people from Qatar on the grounds of their sexual orientation and gender identity? How is the Government going to ensure that LGBTQ+ fans, those associated with the teams, members of Welsh companies and organisations, are able to play a full part in Wales's World Cup campaign without fear of persecution?

Thank you, Sioned, for the support.

I think it really is well appreciated, and I think being able to stand and speak in solidarity on issues and matters that make such a difference to people—we're talking about people's lives aren't we—and being able to—. We talk about taking action, but you can't underestimate people speaking up and challenging and taking the right position on these things. There's very little for me to disagree with on anything you said there, particularly around supporting a nation of sanctuary and what we can do on that, and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments.

If I touch first perhaps on what you said around transgender people in sport, and that is something that seems to have—. Like you say, I actually happily missed Nadine Dorries's comments, but I will go and look at that and see what she said once again. But, I think, one of the things you have to say is, we know, as we've said before, the transgender community appears to be one of the most ostracised and unprotected, and failure to recognise and address that, whether that's in sport or in other areas, is a failure in our duty and our mission to secure equality and inclusion. If we're saying our position is clear that LGBTQ+ rights, including trans rights, are human rights, then sport needs to be a place where everyone can take part, and everyone is treated with kindness, dignity and respect. And I think it has to start from a position of—. I could hear murmurs of support in this place here. Sport, in its very essence, is an opportunity to be inclusive and to include people in different communities. And we're not just talking about elite sport; we're talking right across the board as well.

And, I think, very much, we have to start from a position of compassion, fairness and transparency. Those kinds of conversations have already taken place with some of those sporting bodies, and I'm going to be working very closely with my colleague Dawn Bowden from that perspective. It's something that I certainly am going to take forward and move forward now, in terms of actually how we can make sure things are done in this way. I was at a PinkNews event—well, a Parliament reception, which wasn't in Parliament—last week, and I actually met with the cyclist Emily Bridges there, and I've actually invited Emily to come and visit us here to share her experiences, so that we can learn from that and better support and use people's lived experiences too. It's incredibly important that I'm an ally of that community, but I'm not of that community, and I think it's really important, like with anything we do, they are shaping our work and our way forward as well.

If I could just touch on the points you made around hate crime and the rise in hate crime, I think some of it is two-fold, that people are more willing to report it, but unfortunately there is an increase in hate crime. I think we've spoken in this Chamber before about raising awareness, through our Hate Hurts Wales campaigns and the work that we do, that hate crime takes many different forms. At it's extreme and horrific end, it is violent, and, as we've seen, it can lead to really devastating consequences, here in our own capital city. But it's also people thinking that they can say whatever they want to people, and I know I've spoken to things that I've experienced before, here. I find it very difficult at the moment that my wife is a target because of me. I know that she's had a phone call to her work number in this place by somebody who, essentially, was speaking in tongues, told her she was going to burn in hell. Our police forces are trying hard, and we're working very closely with them, but I do think there's more work to do in terms of actually how they handle and treat things like that, because it really wasn't dealt with adequately. And I think these things do need to be improved.

Minister, thank you very much for your statement today. I just wanted to say a little bit about local authorities in Wales and the important role that they have, and ask if you would agree with me that Newport City Council are actually doing a lot of good things at the moment and making real progress on these issues. I know they're fully committed to supporting the Welsh Government's LGBTQ+ action plan, and they have very strong links with communities across the city of Newport, and they have a Pride staff network within the authority, which I think is really delivering results in terms of their internal organisation, but also linking out then to the community.

They've been working with Pride in the Port, and I was pleased that you mentioned them earlier. There will be a march in Newport in September, the first Pride march organised by Pride in the Port, with the local authority in support. There are lots of activities now throughout the local community, the raising of the Progress Pride flag by the council leader and Pride in the Port to celebrate Pride Month. There's an awful lot actually going on at the moment, including an event and a safe space at the Riverfront Theatre, which was created, again, to take forward these activities—to send the right messages. Obviously, you want to work closely with local authorities in Wales, Minister, and I wonder if you would confirm what I hope is the case, that Newport City Council is showing a good example at the moment and doing lots of promising things.

Can I thank John Griffiths for that contribution? I think he's right to shine a light on the role, not just of Newport City Council, but actually the significant part that local authorities can play in our communities, in terms of not just supporting Pride events, but then going back to what Altaf said in terms of their own networks, how they support their own staff, and actually how they create inclusive spaces and opportunities for people in communities—it could be in a city, or whether that's in more urban, more rural communities as well. So, yes, I would very much like to join with you in congratulating Newport City Council, and Jane Hutt—Jane Mudd, sorry. Jane Hutt shows leadership on this as well. [Laughter.] Congratulations to Jane Mudd, as leader of Newport City Council. I was actually talking to Jane at the Wales Armed Forces Day in Wrexham on Saturday, because the baton's being handed over to Newport for next year. And we were talking very excitedly and animatedly about the potential Pride in the Port has, because, as I've said before in this place, and I'll say over and over again, those kinds of landmark Pride events, such as the one in our capital city, are important. We can't underestimate the value of events in communities and cities right across the country. So, Pride in the Port I know is 3 September. I hope to be there myself, and I know Jayne Bryant has actually been in touch with me to get that on my agenda, to make sure I can try and get it in the diary. And I would invite Members to join us on as many Pride marches as we can across the summer, as, actually, we are able to come together in this way as a community once again after the coronavirus pandemic.

Thank you, Deputy Minister, for this statement on the action plan today. Last week, we celebrated, as you said, what would have been the birthday of Welshman, Terrence Higgins, and remembered his passing 40 years ago from an AIDS-related illness. Terry was named as the first person in the UK to die from AIDS, but the crisis caused gay and bisexual men to face horrific homophobia and stigma. This undoubtedly contributed to many more lives being lost.

And, whilst we have come a long way in acknowledging this homophobia associated with the HIV and AIDS crisis of the 1980s, it was alarming to see the tropes in the media and public discourse with the reporting of the monkey pox virus recently. The othering, the framing of queer people as a threat, the stereotypes, the negative connotations were reproduced in our mainstream media, as if the lessons from the last 40 years had never happened. And that's why we need governments to be active in tackling homophobia in all its forms, and that is why I welcome this update on the Welsh Government's LGBT action plan today. As you've said, it is about having a place of inclusion and solidarity, as opposed to division and alienation. Whether it is the systemic prejudice in our establishments, those holding public positions or online hate, we still have a long way to go to stamp this out, as we've seen.

So, Minister, will you agree with me, in endorsing the statement, to say to all people who may be struggling, facing discrimination or prejudice, 'There is nothing wrong with you; there is a lot wrong with the world in which we live'? Also, it's about emphasising and really coming out and saying to those people who are making those comments about the monkey pox virus that it's ignorant, it's absurd, it's dangerous, it's insulting, and to put the blame for that on the LGBTQ+ community is absolutely unacceptable.

Thank you, Sarah, for those very well-said comments there in terms of calling out the risk of history repeating itself in terms of ignorance. Do you know what? I don't actually think it's ignorance half the time, unfortunately; it's intentional. And that kind of othering and the homophobia, that kind of low level, almost, sometimes—. It's inferred homophobia that is latent in some of these things. I'm really pleased that 40 years after the AIDS crisis—. Also, you talked about Terrence Higgins, and I know my colleague Jeremy Miles sponsored an event in this place last week, to launch the Welsh Government's new HIV action plan. That demonstrates how far we've come, but also recognises that we still have a road to travel in terms of tackling stigma and homophobia. I very much would join in with you in what you said, and a message to all LGBTQ+ people in Wales and beyond that you are amazing, you are valued, you are loved for who you are.

Thank you. Before we move to the Stage 3 debate on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill, I will suspend proceedings for 10 minutes, in accordance with Standing Order 12.18. The bell will be rung five minutes before reconvening. Please, could all Members ensure they return promptly, so that voting preparations can take place?

That brings us to the Stage 3 debate on the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill.

We will now discuss the first group of amendments, which relate to the establishment of the commission, and appointment and terms of its members. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 120, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the lead amendment and to speak to other amendments in the group. Laura Anne Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd, for this opportunity to contribute to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill. I will speak to my amendments 119 to 160. This group of amendments serves to ensure proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission surrounding the terms of remit.

With such a substantial budget to be at the disposal of the commission, it is only right that annual letters of remit are utilised to ensure that an arm's-length body can run efficiently, particularly when the likes of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales still believe there is a real risk of this single body not being able to achieve its strategic outcomes. We want to avoid the danger of allowing the Welsh Government to take action at operational level, as it would clearly create unclear governance arrangements, which in turn would cause delay and confusion. Crucially, these amendments will serve to make the appointment of the members of the commission, as well as the chair and members of the research and innovation committee, subject to a Senedd appointment process, as in previous amendments tabled in relation to the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020. While I am disappointed that we find ourselves having to resubmit these amendments, my group and I's determination to ensure maximum independence for the commission compels me to table these amendments and stress their importance yet again.

On amendment 161, I'm seeking to omit the lines in the Bill that provide powers for the commission for tertiary education and research to restructure sixth form education. These are not powers that belong within the remit of the commission, and there is no reason to believe, even for a moment, that sixth form education across Wales would stand to benefit from interference of this nature.

Finally, on amendment 119, I am resubmitting this amendment as I still firmly believe in extending the time of the application of the Bill. It's important to allow for further consideration of the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2021. We need real reassurance that the Bill's application will not be impacted by any of the legal proceedings between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Turning to the Minister's amendments, I don't think they entirely address concerns set out in Stage 2 about the modification of strategic plans, as they are still allowed that power. Yes, it's been diluted a little, but only a little. I'd like to have seen that the Minister had adapted these plans to ensure that the commission will truly be an arm's-length body through his amendments tabled today. Thank you.

I have no speakers. I call on the Minister to respond to this group of amendments.

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to consider the amendments to the Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill today.

Before I speak to the amendments in this group, I'd like to place on record my thanks to the committees and all the Members for their scrutiny of this Bill, and particularly to those Members who've tabled amendments to the Bill today. Whilst it has not been possible to agree all amendments, may I place on record my assurance to Members that I have considered carefully each and every amendment tabled?

Turning to the amendments in this group, as I indicated when this was tabled at Stage 2, I reject amendment 119, which delays the affected provisions being brought into force until 1 January 2024. This will prevent the making of any commencement Orders, including in respect of those powers necessary to make preparatory arrangements to support the implementation of the commission in a manner that ensures continuity of provision for the sector and supports a smooth transition to the commission. In establishing the new commission, the Bill will bring together for the first time the funding, oversight and regulation of tertiary education and research in Wales, putting learners at its heart. As I've previously stated, the change is overdue, and it's essential it can happen as soon as practicable, whilst ensuring the implementation is robust and that stakeholders are not overburdened. In respect of the internal market Act, which I think is the reference the Member was making, I can confirm I don't consider there are any implications for this Bill, and I don't consider it warrants a significant delay to the implementation.

I also reject amendment 120, which requires Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to the commission with respect to the manner in which it should exercise its functions and also review that guidance annually. When speaking to the amendment, Laura Anne Jones referred to it providing for an annual remit letter, in effect, and I don't consider that this amendment would actually provide for that, and in general terms we want to move to a longer term horizon, rather than the annual arrangements currently in place. Critically, I don't consider the amendment supports the principle of the commission being an arm's-length body. Instead, it provides for a bureaucratic and onerous process that risks significantly affecting the commission's ability to take the long-term strategic view that we wish it to take.

I am confident that our approach of the commission operating at arm's length from the Government, within a strategic planning and funding framework, is the correct way forward to meet our ambitions. This approach would not, however, prevent us from providing the commission with an annual remit letter, where necessary and appropriate, as that option remains part of the standard relationship between the Welsh Government and a sponsored body. In addition, section 20 of the Bill requires the commission to have regard to any guidance the Welsh Ministers may issue in respect of its functions under the Bill, the difference here being that guidance can be issued if needed as opposed to a duty to issue guidance on all of the commission's functions immediately, regardless of whether a need for such guidance has arisen. It is not my intention to issue guidance to the commission on all of their functions. As the national steward for tertiary education in Wales, I intend the commission to be provided with the autonomy to operate as an arm's-length body.

Laura Anne Jones to respond.

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you for your response, Minister. I'm disappointed, yet not surprised, that the Minister has rejected my amendments, but I would like to stress the importance yet again of ensuring proper communication between the Welsh Ministers and the commission concerning its remit. I also feel we must emphasise the absolute necessity of an efficient arm's-length approach being guaranteed, and the value that extending the time of the application of the Bill would bring. It's imperative to the success of the commission that it has autonomy and independence to truly feel able to make decisions deemed necessary without the undue influence of Welsh Government Ministers.

I know what the Minister has said previously about the public appointments process, as we've heard it before in a previous health Minister's arguments on the citizen voice body during the passage of the Health and Social Care (Quality and Engagement) (Wales) Act 2020, and most recently, at Stage 2 of this Bill. While of course we don't want to be overprescriptive about the commission's structure, I and my group have become increasingly concerned that certain appointments are closer to the Welsh Government than being truly independent. Granted, we have a small pool to work with in Wales, but I think there is a case to be made that Members of the commission should have been questioned and evaluated by the committee. I'm not sure if the Minister's response in the committee has allayed my own concerns about the separation of Welsh Government and the commission, especially as he didn't consider any provision needed to be placed on the face of the Bill. I move our amendments.

The question is that amendment 120 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore proceed to a vote on amendment 120. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

Amendment 121, is it being moved? Laura Anne Jones.

Moved.

Amendment 121. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore we will move to a vote on amendment 121. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 121 is not agreed.

Laura Anne Jones, amendment 122. Is it being moved?

Moved.

Amendment 122. Is there any objection to the amendment? [Objection.] Yes, there is. We'll therefore move to vote on amendment 122.

Amendment 122 in the name of Laura Anne Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 122 is not agreed.

Amendment 123, Laura Anne Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

The question that amendment 123 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is an objection. We will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 123.

Amendment 123, in the name of Laura Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 123 is not agreed.

Amendment 124, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

The question is that amendment 124 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 124.

Amendment 124, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 124 is not agreed.

Amendment 125, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there objections to amendment 125? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 125. Open the vote.

Amendment 125, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 125 is not agreed.

Amendment 126.

Amendment 126, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is, to gwelliant 126. We'll move to a vote on amendment 126, in the name of Laura Jones.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 126 is not agreed.

Amendment 127, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 127? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 127.

Amendment 127, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 127 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment 128, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Is there any objection to amendment 128? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we will move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 128.

It's amendment 128, in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 128 is not agreed.

Amendment 129, Laura Jones.

Move.

129 is moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 129? [Objection.] There are. Therefore, we will move to a vote on amendment 129. Open the vote.

Amendment 129, in the name of Laura Jones.

In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 129 is not agreed.

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Amendment 130, are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 130. Open the vote.

Amendment 130, Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 130 is not agreed.

Amendment 131, Laura Jones.

Move.

Amendment 131 is moved. Is there an objection to 131? [Objection.] Yes, there is.

We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 131. Open the vote.

Amendment 131 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 131 is not agreed.

Amendment 132.

Amendment 132, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 132? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 132.

Amendment 132 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote.

Very effective.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 132 is not agreed.

Amendment 133, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to amendment 133? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 133. Open the vote.

Amendment—[Inaudible.]

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 133 is not agreed.

Amendment 134, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 134. Open the vote—

—on amendment 134 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 134 is not agreed.

Amendment 135, Laura Jones.

Move, please.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 135. Open the vote.

Amendment 135 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 135 is not agreed.

136, Laura Jones.

Move, please.

Moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 135—no, 136. Amendment 136.

Amendment 136.

Open the vote.

Amendment 136 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 136 is not agreed.

Amendment 137, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 137. Open the vote.

It's amendment 137 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 137 is not agreed.

Amendment 138, Laura Jones.

Move, please.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections. We'll open the vote on amendment 138.

Amendment 138, Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 138 is not agreed.

Amendment 139, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 139.

Amendment 139 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 139 is not agreed.

Amendment 140, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] Yes. We'll move to a vote on amendment 140. Open the vote.

Open the vote. Amendment 140 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 140 is not agreed.

141, Laura Jones.

Move.

141 is moved.

Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll move to a vote on amendment 141. Open the vote.

This is amendment 141 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 141 is not agreed.

142, Laura Jones.

Move.

Amendment 142 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 142. Open the vote.

Amendment 142 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. And therefore amendment 142 is not agreed.

Amendment 143, Laura Jones.

Move.

Amendment 143. Any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote. Open the vote on amendment 143 in the name of Laura Jones.

Amendment 143.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 143 is not agreed.

Amendment 144, Laura Jones.

Move.

Amendment 144 has been moved. Is there an objection? [Objection.]

So, we'll move to a vote on amendment 144. Open the vote.

Amendment 144 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 144 is not agreed.

Amendment 145, Laura Jones.

Move.

It's moved. Are there any objections to the amendment? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 145. Open the vote.

Amendment 145 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 145 is not agreed.

Amendment 146, Laura Jones.

Move.

The question is that amendment 146 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote on amendment 146. Open the vote.

Amendment 146 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 146 is not agreed.

Amendment 147, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 147? [Objection.] There are. We will therefore open the vote on amendment 147.

Amendment 147 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 147 is not agreed.

Amendment 148, Laura Jones.

Move.

Amendment 148 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 148. Open the vote.

Amendment 148.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 148 is not agreed.

Amendment 149.

Amendment 149, Laura Jones.

Move.

Amendment 149 is moved. Any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 149. Open the vote.

Amendment 149.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 149 is not agreed.

Amendment 150.

Amendment 150, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 150. Open the vote.

Amendment 150.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 150 is not agreed.

Amendment 151, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved—amendment 151. Any objections? [Objection.] There are objections. We'll move to a vote on amendment 151. Open the vote.

Amendment 151.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Amendment 151 is therefore not agreed.

Amendment 152, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 152. Open the vote.

Amendment 152.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 152 is not agreed.

Before I move on, can I just check that anybody voting remotely has their camera switched on? Thank you for that. So, we'll move on. Amendment 153. Laura Jones, is it being moved?

Move.

Amendment 153 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 153. Open the vote on amendment 153.

Amendment 153.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 153 is not agreed.

Amendment 154.

Amendment 154, is it being moved?

Move.

Amendment 154 is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 154. Open the vote.

Amendment 154.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 154 is not agreed.

Amendment 155, Laura Jones.

Move.

It is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 155? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 155.

Open the vote—amendment 155.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 155 is not agreed.

Amendment 156.

Amendment 156.

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll move to a vote on amendment 156. Open the vote.

Amendment 156.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 156 is not agreed.

Amendment 157, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 157. Open the vote.

Amendment 157.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 157 is not agreed.

Amendment 158, Laura Jones.

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 158. Open the vote.

Amendment 158.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 158 is not agreed.

Amendment 159, Laura Jones.

Symud.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. Open the vote on amendment 159.

Amendment 159.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 159 is not agreed.

The final amendment in this group, 160. Is the amendment moved?

Move.

The amendment is moved. Are there any objections? [Objection.] There are. We'll therefore move to a vote on amendment 160. Open the vote.

Open the vote, amendment 160.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore amendment 160 is not agreed.

Group 2 is the next group, and this group of amendments relates to distance learning. Amendment 1 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on the Minister to move and speak to the lead amendment. Jeremy Miles.

Diolch Llywydd. I call on Members to support these technical but important amendments that ensure that courses provided by way of distance learning by, or on behalf of, tertiary education providers in Wales are captured by the relevant provisions in the Bill, and also make provision regarding the territorial application of the Bill.

Llywydd, during the pandemic the tertiary education sector in Wales was able to quickly adapt, by increasing the volume of teaching and learning delivered remotely and online. In the future, we expect that there will be greater use of hybrid delivery of teaching and learning, and it is important that the law remains up to date with this, anticipating and enabling providers to deliver on behalf of learners.

Amendments 1 to 5, 7, 10 and 11 clarify the territorial application of the commission's strategic duties in respect of equality of opportunity, continuous improvement, and Welsh-medium tertiary education. These duties now apply to Welsh tertiary education, which is defined by amendment 68 as tertiary education provided by, or on behalf of, a tertiary education provider in Wales, or funded or otherwise secured by the commission.

Amendment 69 ensures that references to the provision of tertiary education by, or on behalf of, a tertiary education provider in Wales include courses of tertiary education provided at one or more places in Wales or elsewhere and by way of distance learning.

These amendments will ensure that these strategic duties apply to tertiary education delivered by providers in Wales through distance learning, or face-to-face provision delivered outside Wales, and also tertiary education funded or otherwise secured by the commission.

Amendments 8 and 9 amend the territorial application of the strategic duty to promote collaboration and coherence in tertiary education and research. The duty will now apply in respect of providers in Wales, namely institutions whose activities are wholly or mainly carried out in Wales.

Amendments 14 and 15 clarify that the definition of 'qualifying courses' for the purposes of fee limits under section 32 of the Bill include courses provided by a registered provider falling within a fee limit category, where such courses are provided in Wales or elsewhere either on a face-to-face basis or by way of distance learning. This clarifies the law to ensure that fee limits for qualifying courses apply even where a student is undertaking the course by way of distance learning, and where the course is provided in Wales or elsewhere.

Amendments 16 to 20 clarify that the conditions of registration in respect of equality of opportunity apply to face-to-face courses provided wholly or mainly in Wales and distance learning courses where those courses can be said to be wholly or mainly in Wales because of the physical location of teaching staff and students. Amendment 21 is consequential on these amendments and clarifies the definition of 'under-represented groups'.

Amendment 22 clarifies the territorial application of the powers of entry and inspection under section 74 in the Bill by stating that such powers apply in respect of premises in Wales and in England.

Amendments 37, 38 and 42, and the related definition of 'facilities for Wales' in amendment 67, amend the commission’s duties to secure facilities for further education and training both in Wales and for persons ordinarily resident in Wales. This may include provision by way of distance learning or face-to-face provision taking place outside Wales and is consistent with the effect of the equivalent duties in current legislation.

Amendments 47 to 51 amend the territorial scope of the powers to fund activities connected to tertiary education. Amendments 47 and 48 relate to the powers of the Welsh Ministers and the commission to fund information about education and training and facilities to link employers and those providing or receiving education and training under section 102(1). The amendments provide for such education to include tertiary education delivered by providers in Wales, tertiary education funded or otherwise secured by the commission, and any other education or training provided wholly or mainly in Wales, or provided either face-to-face or by way of distance learning to persons ordinarily resident in Wales.

Amendments 49 and 50 make similar provision in respect of the commission’s powers to fund Welsh-medium tertiary education and to teach Welsh by means of tertiary education. Amendment 51 provides the definition of 'relevant education' for these purposes.

Finally, amendments 63 and 64 similarly amend the territorial scope of the Welsh Ministers’ and commission’s powers to fund research in relation to education and training.

I call on Members to support all of these amendments.

I have no other speakers on this group. I take it that the Minister does not need to respond. So the question is that amendment 1 be agreed to. Does any Member object?

Is there an objection to amendment 1? No.

No, therefore amendment 1 is agreed.

Amendment 2—is it moved by the Minister?

Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 2? No, therefore amendment 2 has been agreed.

Amendment 3, Minister.

It's being moved by the Minister.

Yes.

Is there an objection? No objection, therefore amendment 3 is accepted.

Is amendment 4 moved by the Minister?

Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 4? No, therefore amendment 4 is agreed.

Amendment 5—is it moved by the Minister?

Yes.

Yes, it is. Is there an objection to amendment 5? No, therefore amendment 5 is agreed.

Group 3 is next. Group 3 of amendments relates to additional learning needs. Amendment 6 is the lead and lone amendment in this group. I call on the Minister to move and speak to amendment 6.

Diolch, Llywydd. Amendment 6 adds reference to individuals who have additional learning needs into section 4 of the Bill, which provides for the strategic duty in respect of encouraging participation in tertiary education. Section 4 requires the commission to

'encourage individuals who are ordinarily resident in Wales to participate in tertiary education'.

This amendment alters this section to include express reference to

'individuals who have additional learning needs'.

While the duty, as introduced, captures all individuals, including those who have additional learning needs, as I indicated at Stage 2, I am bringing forward this amendment to include express reference on the face of the Bill to put beyond any doubt that those who have additional learning needs are within the scope of the strategic duty. I would like to thank Laura Anne Jones in particular for the constructive approach she has taken to discussions in relation to this amendment, which takes into account the discussions we had during the Stage 2 proceedings in committee. I urge Members to support this important amendment.

I recognise the Minister has taken some action on this, and we welcome it, of course, and thank you for recognising our contribution to it. But, we need to see the commission being clear in how they will treat people with additional learning needs in their policy, especially surrounding supported internships and apprenticeships, which are being integrated into the Bill. Barriers already exist for those with learning disabilities entering into the workforce, and this Bill could be a huge opportunity to break down those barriers.

The Minister is aware that the committee expressed its concerns about the commission in relation to the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018, and I do note his response, which mentioned that detailed arrangements for implementing post-16 ALN reforms are currently being finalised. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister would clarify when he expects these detailed arrangements to be implemented and how these will affect the commission's policy on the provision of ALN in the tertiary and higher education sectors. I would also like to know whether funding for supported internships and apprenticeships will be included within this policy.

I recognise the Welsh Government has embarked on significant reforms to ALN in the educational sector, and as ALN is life long, we do need to ensure that there is a seamless transition from schools to tertiary education and then, if possible, on to work. Diolch, Llywydd.

Plaid Cymru supports the amendment in this group, certainly amendment 6, which responds to issues that were raised during scrutiny stages. As the Minister and Laura Anne Jones said, it is a period of significant change in ALN, and it's important that this Billl, which introduces major changes to tertiary education, does deliver for our ALN learners. As we know, there are barriers for people with learning disabilities to entering the workforce, and this Bill is a very real opportunity to try to remove some of those barriers, as Laura Anne Jones said. And, as was recognised by the Minister during Stage 2, it is crucial that there is a smooth pathway through statutory education to post-16 learning and to the workforce. As the Minister noted during Stage 2, the commission will have a role to play in assessing whether the resources are adequate to make provision for ALN at a general population level. So, what I would like to hear from the Minister is how he anticipates that the commission will encourage individuals living in Wales to participate in tertiary education.

The Minister to reply to the debate.

May I thank Laura Anne Jones and Sioned Williams for their support for what we are proposing in this amendment and for recognising the positive and collaborative discussions we had during Stage 2 of the Bill? In terms of the question that Laura Anne Jones asked, it's a matter, of course, for the commission to do this, but the work is already being done in terms of implementing this legislation with regard to actions, and this reform to the Bill will be taken into account in that specific context. And, as Sioned Williams mentioned in her question, it is vitally important to ensure that there is continuity for people with additional learning needs, and this addition does make that clear on the face of the Bill.

I'd just like to restate that what was in the Bill when it was introduced ensured that there was a strategic role for the commission to provide across the system, and that was made clear, and that aligns with the reforms in terms of legislation that we already have with regard to ALN. That is what allows us to work with local authorities and others that have specific responsibilities to provide in the context of individuals.

The question, therefore, is that amendment 6 be agreed to. Does any Member object to amendment 6?

Is there an objection to amendment 6?

No. Therefore, amendment 6 is agreed.

Is amendment 7 being moved by the Minister?

Yes.

Amendment 7. Is there an objection to amendment 7? No, therefore amendment 7 is agreed.

Amendment 8, is it moved, Minister?

Yes.

Therefore, amendment 8. Is there objection to amendment 8? No. Therefore, amendment 8 is agreed.

Is amendment 9 being moved?

Yes.

Yes. Is there objection to amendment 9? No. Therefore, amendment 9 is agreed.

Amendment 10, is it moved?

Yes.

Is there objection to amendment 10? No, therefore amendment 10 is also agreed.

Group 4 is the next group, and this next group of amendments relates to Welsh-medium provision. Amendment 79 is the lead amendment in this group, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the lead amendment and to speak to the group. Laura Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. I wish to speak to my amendments 79 and 80. The purpose of these amendments is to strengthen the duty on the commission to promote Welsh-medium tertiary education to reflect the ambitions of 'Cymraeg 2050'.

On amendment 79, I have chosen to resubmit this amendment as I still believe it is vital to reflect the commission's important role in reaching the 1 million Welsh speakers objective.

As for amendment 80, this is to amend the Minister's Stage 2 amendments. The reason for this is to add clarity and focus to the Minister's amendments with regard to 'Cymraeg 2050', by ensuring that specific mention is made to the provision of resources. I hope the Minister will see the value in this. Diolch.

Plaid Cymru, of course, supports the principle of securing resources to promote and enhance the demand for Welsh-medium tertiary education, and we voiced our concerns about this during Stages 1 and 2, concerns that were shared during Stage 1 by UCAC, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the Welsh Language Commissioner. We were therefore pleased to have seen during Stage 2 a robust amendment to ensure that the commission would need to not only meet demand, but also to promote, encourage and secure Welsh-medium provision. We agree with the Government that the strategic duty mentioned in amendment 11 meets the concerns, and that amendments 79 and 80 are inappropriate because the question of resources is part of the strategic duty to encourage demand.

If we are to reach a million Welsh speakers by 2050, then promoting the benefits of Welsh-medium provision to learners and students, of course, is crucially important. We need to nurture the confidence of students that bilingual or Welsh-medium pathways are possible for them, and ensure that those pathways are attractive to them, and that the appropriate support will be there for them.

I was encouraged also at Stage 2 particularly in terms of the Minister's comments on the role of the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in this regard, and its relationship with the commission. Of course, we are of the view that the coleg must decide and advise as to how to allocate any resources for Welsh-medium provision through the commission, and that it should be channelled through the coleg. I was pleased to hear the Minister confirming that they would have a crucial role to play in ensuring continuity from statutory education to post-16 education by collaborating with the commission. We would therefore be pleased to have confirmation of the Minister's vision in that regard this afternoon.

The Minister to contribute.

Thank you, Llywydd. As I've stated before, I'm convinced that the language belongs to us all, and that we must keep encouraging and create opportunities to use the Welsh language, particularly in our tertiary education sector. I congratulate Laura Anne Jones on her use of the Welsh language in the Chamber this afternoon.

Members will be aware that the strategic duty in respect of promoting Welsh-medium tertiary education was amended at Stage 2, as previously mentioned, expanding the duty to require the commission to encourage demand for and participation in tertiary education through the medium of Welsh.

Whilst I welcome the Member's support for resourcing increased participation in Welsh-medium tertiary education, I cannot support amendment 79 nor amendment 80, as the provision of resources is covered by the requirement to encourage demand for and participation in tertiary education provided in Wales through the medium of Welsh. Singling out resources risks making the duty less clear, as it may introduce ambiguity as to whether provision of resources falls within the scope of the duty to encourage demand.

In terms of the question that Sioned Williams asked, the explanatory memorandum has now been amended to reflect what was agreed during Stage 2. So, the wider explanation is related to that.

So, I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Diolch. Diolch, Minister. I'm disappointed the Minister has rejected my amendment, as it disagrees with the notion of specific mention of resource provision in our pursuit of 'Cymraeg 2050' objectives.

Even though I agree with a lot of what the Member for Plaid Cymru just said, I'm disappointed that the Minister has rejected my amendment to his Stage 2 amendment, as, in my view, it would only serve to improve the amendment. Therefore, I ask Members to support it.

Amendment 79. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There are objections. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 79. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 79 is not agreed.

Amendment 11—is it moved, Minister?

Yes.

It is. Amendment 11. Are there any objections? There are none. Therefore, amendment 11 is agreed.

Amendment 80 in the name of Laura Anne Jones. Is it moved?

Move.

It's moved. Are there any objections to amendment 80? [Objection.] There is an objection. We will therefore move to a vote on amendment 80. Open the vote.

Amendment 80 in the name of Laura Jones.

Close the vote. In favour 17, no abstentions, 36 against. Therefore, amendment 80 is not agreed.

Group 5 is the next group of amendments, and this group relates to institutional autonomy, academic freedom and freedom of speech. Amendment 166 is the lead amendment in this group. I call on Sioned Williams to move the lead amendment and to speak to the group. Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Llywydd, and I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on group 5, and to specifically speak to amendment 166, tabled in my name. During our scrutiny work on the Bill as introduced, the Children, Young People and Education Committee was eager to ensure that this legislation and the new arrangements that will be created through it will maintain and extend the long-established principles in relation to academic freedoms—that is, that there needs to be freedom for our academic community to follow their own research interests, whatever the topic of that research may be, and that they need protection to do that, free from any prejudice or detrimental consequences, because that independence of opinion can challenge institutions, society, Governments and so on, but also enriches and enhances all our lives.

My aim in introducing the amendment is to build on the strengthening of the Bill during, and following, Stage 2, specifically section 17 of the Bill, as it appears before us today. Section 17(1) as currently drafted puts a requirement on the Minister and the commission to address the importance of safeguarding academic freedoms of tertiary education providers in Wales that provide higher education, to the extent that that freedom relates to HE and academic staff within those providers.

Members who will have read the Bill in detail, and I'm sure that you will all have done so, will see that the definition of a provider of HE is to be found in section 141 of the Bill, and that that includes the provision of education through a course. However, the activities of these institutions in relation to research and innovation is broader than providing education through courses, and they could include research programmes in the postgraduate sector and innovation projects. It's important, therefore, that there is safeguarding in terms of academic freedom relating to these activities too.

This amendment therefore further amends subsection 1 to ensure that that freedom does extend to research and innovation activities and to the provision of HE. I ask Members, therefore, to support this amendment, which will facilitate and provide clarity and further assurance on the length and breadth of this important provision. Thank you.

I'd like to start by thanking Sioned Williams for tabling this debate. I would like to move amendments 81, 82, 83 and 84. The purpose of these amendments is to reflect the content of clause 1 of the UK Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill, covering the governing bodies of higher education providers in Wales. This would mean that governing bodies must take steps to secure the freedom of speech within the law for staff members, students and visiting speakers. They also serve to compel governing bodies of tertiary education providers in Wales to maintain the code of practice setting out the matters referred to in subsection 2.

The code of practice would set out matters including the providers' values relating to freedom of speech and the upholding of it, procedures to be followed by staff and students in organising meetings and activities on the providers' premises, and any other matters that each governing body deems appropriate. The amendments also serve to ensure the defence of academic freedom and the freedom of speech within the Bill, as well as make it clear that frivolous or vexatious claims cannot be brought at private law. I would ask Members to support our amendments.

I support amendment 166 and have been pleased to collaborate with Sioned Williams on the content of the amendment. Although the amendment does not alter the definition of academic freedom fundamentally, it does clarify that tertiary education providers in Wales that provide research and innovation, in addition to those providing higher education, fall within the scope of the duties imposed on the Welsh Ministers and the commission to have regard to the importance of protecting the academic freedom of such providers, as well as of academic staff at those providers.

As at Stage 2, I resolutely reject the amendments tabled in the name of Laura Anne Jones in respect of freedom of speech, namely amendments 81, 82, 83 and 84.

Unlike the amendments at Stage 2, I note that these amendments now confirm that no statutory tort is created as a result of the breach of the proposed duties. Whilst amendment 84 may put beyond doubt that a failure by a tertiary education provider in Wales to perform these duties would not confer a cause of action at private law, this addition does not address my fundamental concerns with these amendments.

These amendments largely draw on the UK Government’s fundamentally flawed and misguided Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Bill. Far from enabling greater freedom of expression and breadth of debate in universities, their effect would risk stifling and suffocating free speech under greater bureaucracy.

As the parliamentary joint select committee on human rights concluded in its thorough investigation in 2018,

'the extent to which students restrict free speech at universities should not be exaggerated'.

A well-respected survey of students released just last week by the Higher Education Policy Institute found that the overwhelming majority of students report that they hear a variety of opinions expressed on campus, including those different from their own, and a similar majority feel comfortable expressing their own points of view.

I'm not convinced that there is a substantive threat to free speech at universities in Wales; rather, our institutions continue to be open and supportive environments where free and frank exchanges of ideas take place daily.

Members should also note that the law already places sufficient duties on education institutions to protect freedom of speech. The Education (No. 2) Act 1986 requires that governing bodies of higher and further education institutions in Wales

'take such steps as are reasonably practicable to ensure that freedom of speech within the law is secured for members, students and employees of the establishment and for visiting speakers'.

The 1986 Act also requires the institutions to publish and update a code of practice in discharging their duties in respect of freedom of speech, setting out procedures to be followed regarding meetings and the conduct of staff and students in connection with activities specified within the code. I am confident that these duties and universities' other duties under equalities and other legislation are sufficient to safeguard free speech.

I have tabled an amendment to these provisions of the 1986 Act, which will be discussed as part of group 18 in due course, to ensure the provisions remain up to date and operate as intended.

I call therefore on Members to join me in supporting amendment 166 and to reject amendments 81, 82, 83 and 84.

The question is that amendment 166 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Interruption.] Oh, I'm being corrected by a new Member of the Senedd, Sioned Williams—who is no longer a new Member, of course. Sioned Williams to reply to the debate before we move to the vote.

Thank you, Llywydd. Yes, I would just like to place on record that Plaid Cymru supports the Minister's views on the amendments tabled in the name of Laura Anne Jones, that is, 81, 82, 83 and 84. Freedom of speech is not unconditional, and, as was noted in the debate, we already have legislation to safeguard freedom of speech in HE institutions and to safeguard students and staff within those institutions from discrimination and harassment.

I'm pleased with the constructive collaboration between Plaid Cymru and the Government on this amendment, and the Minister's confirmation that the Government will support the amendment. It's appropriate that I also recognise the careful work undertaken by stakeholders, and that the stamp of their aspirations and their concerns and anxieties and the different views of sectors in Wales that they represent have been recognised and incorporated in this amendment. Thank you.

The question therefore is that amendment 166 be agreed to. Is there any objection? No. Therefore, amendment 166 is agreed.

Amendment 81.

I think it was moved during the debate, moved by Laura Jones.

Move.

Is there objection to amendment 81? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 81. Open the vote.

Amendment 81.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 81 is not agreed.

Amendment 82—

—moved?

Move.

Yes, it's moved.

Amendment 82 is moved. Is there objection to amendment 82? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll proceed to a vote on amendment 82. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 82 is not agreed.

Amendment 83.

Is it moved?

Move.

Yes.

Amendment 83 is moved. Is there objection to it? [Objection.] Yes. Therefore, we move to a vote on amendment 83. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 83 is not agreed.

Amendment 84 is moved.

Move.

Yes, it is. Is there objection to amendment 84? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 84. Open the vote.

Amendment 84.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 84 is not agreed.

Group 6 is the next group of amendments, and these relate to Senedd procedure and process for making regulations. Amendment 85 is the lead amendment in this group and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the amendment and speak to the group. Laura Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to speak to my own amendments first. The purpose of amendment 85 and several others within the group is to require any direction from Welsh Ministers to be done so by statutory instrument, subject to the affirmative procedure, and to be done only following consultation with the relevant Senedd committee. This is in line with recommendation 21 of the committee and with maintaining a true arm's-length situation whilst ensuring the proper checks and balances are present regarding any actions from the Welsh Government.

Amendments 87 to 89 and 96 are probing amendments designed to encourage clarification on the designation of any other providers of tertiary education and consultation with appropriate bodies.

On amendment 105 and its conditionals, I'm resubmitting the amendment to change the powers under section 138 to the affirmative procedure. My group and I remain of the opinion that it is a mistake to place the procedure in the negative, given the quantity of negative regulations that have been tabled throughout the Bill and its consequential impact on Senedd scrutiny.

Amendment 108 serves also as a probing amendment to seek clarity on the categories of registration and consultation with appropriate bodies.

On amendment 111, I'm resubmitting this amendment as a precaution to ensure the removal of Henry VIII powers and to reiterate the opposition of both myself and of Cardiff University to such elements within the legislation.

Finally, on amendment 118, I also seek here to subject regulation-making power under section 143 to affirmative procedure, as well as to remove Henry VIII powers.

As for the Minister's amendment, I am happy to support this amendment as I understand that it's necessary housekeeping for the Bill. Diolch.

Does the Minister wish to contribute to the debate on this group?

Diolch, Llywydd. I'll start with amendment 66, which is a minor and technical amendment that I've tabled to remove a reference to section 140 of the Bill to regulation-making power previously provided for in section 33(1) of the Bill in light of its removal during Stage 2 proceedings, and I welcome Laura Anne Jones's support for that amendment.

The majority of the remaining amendments in this group are repeats of those tabled at Stage 2. Amendment 85 requires general directions under section 21 of the Bill to be made by statutory instrument, whilst amendment 107 subjects the SI to the affirmative Senedd procedure. The general direction of power enables the Welsh Ministers to give the commission directions in relation to specific matters set out on the face of the Bill, and amendment 106 is consequential to amendment 107. These directions relate to a single body and specific matters, and do not provide for general law making of a wider nature. The requirement to publish the direction, report it to the Senedd and lay a copy of the directions before the Senedd will ensure the accessibility and transparency of any directions. I therefore reject amendments 85, 106 and 107, and call on Members to do the same.

I also reject amendments 108 and 109, which subject regulations made under section 25(2) and 25(8) to the affirmative Senedd procedure, whilst amendment 110 makes the same provision in respect of regulations made under section 41(2) and 43(13). These regulations have been assigned the negative Senedd procedure as the substance of the provision is set out clearly on the face of the Bill. These regulations prescribe technical and administrative matters that may require updating from time to time, or make transitional or saving provisions. As such, the negative procedure is appropriate in relation to each of these regulation-making powers.

I do not support amendment 111, which applies the affirmative Senedd procedures to regulations made under section 143, dealing with matters such as consequential amendments or incidental or transitional provision in relation to subordinate legislation. This is disproportionate and unnecessary, as such provision, in respect of subordinate legislation, is, by its nature, technical and does not deliver substantive policy changes.

I reject amendment 118, which removes the ability of the Welsh Ministers to amend, modify, repeal or revoke an enactment in consequence of, or to give full effect to, provisions of the Bill. Without this power, further primary legislation will be required to make any consequential amendment that becomes apparent as necessary after Royal Assent. Whilst technically a Henry VIII power, its use is limited to provision in the consequence of, or for giving full effect to, provisions of the Bill. It would be highly unusual for primary legislation not to contain such a power, and risks the legislation not operating as intended. Where the power is used to amend or modify primary legislation, it is subject to the affirmative Senedd procedure.

Laura Jones to respond.

Diolch. Thank you for your response, Minister. I remain of the firm belief that there is an overabundance of amendments in the negative, and that safeguards are necessary to ensure that the reach of the Welsh ministerial powers is limited, as outlined previously by concerns highlighted by the committee itself. I therefore ask Members to support our amendments.

The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will move to a vote on amendment 85. Open the vote.

Amendment 85.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 85 is not agreed.

We'll move now to group 7, which relates to learner well-being and protection. Amendment 12 is the lead amendment in the group, and I call on the Minister to move that amendment.

Thank you, Llywydd. I call upon members to support amendments 12 and 13, which introduce new mandatory initial and ongoing conditions of registration regarding the effectiveness of tertiary education providers' arrangements for supporting and promoting the welfare of their staff and students. This will ensure that consideration is given to whether providers have proper processes, services and policies in place to support the welfare, well-being and safety of students and staff.

Everyone has the right to a happy education experience, and I want Wales to build a reputation, within the UK and internationally, for putting well-being at the centre of our education system. A lack of support for mental health and well-being can be a critical barrier to success in education for many learners and students. It is therefore vital that we ensure that providers are attentive to addressing these challenges and are supported to do so by the commission. It's clear that we face many challenges across the UK. Full-time students are more likely to experience sexual assaults than those in any other occupational group, and nearly a quarter of ethnic minority students experience racial harassment on campus. Students continually report lower levels of happiness and higher levels of anxiety than the general population, and this has been exacerbated by the recent effects of the pandemic.

Over the past decade there has been a reckoning, particularly within the UK higher education sector, about how providers address matters of bullying and harassment and how they support students' well-being and mental health, and I think that we would all agree that more progress is needed on these issues. A Universities UK report in 2015 recommended sweeping changes to the ways in which universities manage reporting and support for victims of harassment, violence and hate crime, and I think that we would all agree that more progress needs to be made on this. In England, the Office for Students does not formally regulate the way in which higher education providers promote and support student welfare. We will therefore be going further in Wales by ensuring that the new commission is empowered to prioritise the oversight of these vitally important matters.

I hope that these amendments will command cross-party support. I want to thank Laura Anne Jones for tabling amendments at Stage 2 that highlighted the importance of ensuring that mental health and well-being were reflected in this piece of legislation. I believe that the amendments tabled here at Stage 3 will offer the most effective way of ensuring that the commission promotes the mental health and well-being of learners. I cannot support amendments 98, 99 and 100. As I stated when these were proposed during Stage 2 consideration, the commission has to retain the ability to modify learner protection plans so as to ensure that those plans are robust and remain focused on the learner. I call on Members, therefore, to support amendments 12 and 13 and to reject all other amendments in this group.

I'd like to echo much of what the Minister has said and I'd also like to thank him for taking our original amendment forward and supporting the intentions originally set out by the Welsh Conservatives regarding learner well-being and protection.

I would like to move amendments 98, 99 and 100. Amendment 98 and its two consequential amendments have been brought forward again to reiterate Universities Wales's suggestion for the commission to be able to approve the learner protection plan with or without modifications. The commission must be able to specify requirements as a condition for approval, and it should be a matter for the governing body to determine whether to accept the modifications. It would also be for the commission to decide whether to approve or reject the plan. However, attempts to oppose modifications directly without providers' consent would seemingly risk the commission being in breach of its duty in relation to charity law, meaning the legislation is relying on provisions that are unworkable. Therefore, I stress again here at Stage 3 that the clause should be amended to remove the ability for the commission to make unilateral changes to plans. I ask Members to consider this. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 12 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections, therefore amendment 12 is agreed.

Amendment 13, is it moved by the Minister?

Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 13? None. Therefore, amendment 13 is agreed.

Is amendment 14 moved?

Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 14? There are none, therefore amendment 14 is agreed.

Amendment 15, is it moved by the Minister?

Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 15? There are none. Amendment 15 is therefore agreed.

Amendment 16. Minister, is it moved?

Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 16? There are none, therefore the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 17 is next. Is it moved.

Yes.

Are there any objections to amendment 17? There are none, and therefore amendment 17 is agreed.

Amendment 18. Is it moved?

Yes.

It is. Are there any objections to amendment 18?

Gwelliant 18, unrhyw wrthwynebiad?

There are none, therefore amendment 18 is agreed.

Amendment 19, Minister.

Yes.

Amendment 19 is moved. Are there any objections to amendment 19? I don't see objections, therefore amendment 19 is agreed.

Amendment 20, Minister.

Yes.

Amendment 20 is moved. Are there any objections? There are none, therefore amendment 20 is agreed.

Amendment 21. Is it moved?

Yes.

It is. Are there any objections? There are none, therefore amendment 21 is agreed.

We now move to group 8, which relates to apprenticeships, and amendment 86 is the lead amendment. I call on Laura Jones to move that amendment and speak to the other amendments in the group. Laura Jones.

Diolch, Llywydd. I will speak to all the amendments in this group. As I stated at Stage 2, I believe in a more rounded tertiary education system, including traineeship programmes, employability programmes and apprenticeships, and I therefore continue to be concerned about the place of these programmes within the Bill. Their full inclusion is absolutely essential to improving a sustainable and innovative economy. Amendment 86 exists to obtain further information regarding the responsibility for the inspection or a review of degree apprenticeships. I believe it is absolutely integral that it is made clear that the commission's duty to assess the quality of higher education includes degree apprenticeships.

On amendment 97, I seek to make it clear that Part 4 of the Bill can apply to degree apprenticeships, if the other conditions in section 109 of the Bill are met. Further on this, amendment 114 would serve to clearly define degree apprenticeships in the Bill to ensure the definition encompasses any course that combines part-time higher education and an approved Welsh apprenticeship, as defined in section 109. With this in mind, I also submit amendment 116 in order to add degree apprenticeships to the wider definition of tertiary education in the Bill, alongside higher education, further education and training, and I ask the Minister to consider this.

I note the concerns that the Member has expressed, but I hope it's reassuring to her for me to say they are not actually well founded in the drafting of the Bill, and so I call on Members to reject amendments 114 and 116, simply because they're unnecessary. There is no need to introduce a new, separate legal definition of degree apprenticeships, as they are captured by the existing definitions within the Bill. Also, defining 'degree apprenticeships' separately to 'apprenticeships' risks ambiguity as to whether or not degree apprenticeships are within the scope of the many references to apprenticeships elsewhere in the Bill.

Amendment 86 is also unnecessary, as no further provision needs to be made to ensure that the appropriate quality assessment arrangements are in place for degree apprenticeships in Wales. As I stated at Stage 2, the Bill is clear as to the arrangements for the quality assurance of both further education and higher education, with responsibility for both sitting with the commission. These arrangements already provide sufficient coverage for degree apprenticeships.

Section 54 of the Bill provides for the assessment of quality in higher education, and degree apprenticeships include elements of higher education. This can then allow the delegation to a designated body for higher education quality assessment under section 54 and Schedule 3. This is not dissimilar to the law at present, which is also clear. HEFCW holds a comparable duty at present under the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015.

I appreciate that there have been considerations within the sector about what role Estyn could and should play in the quality oversight of degree apprenticeships, given their experience inspecting other apprenticeships, and there have been discussions to this effect between relevant stakeholders. The commission will make a final determination on this, and if it is decided that degree apprenticeships should form a part of Estyn's remit, regulations can be made under section 57(1)(f) without any amendment to the current text.

Amendment 97 is also unnecessary. Any arrangement that meets the criteria set out in subsections (2), (3) and (4) of section 102 is already an approved Welsh apprenticeship. I see no need, therefore, to further specify this on the face of this Bill. And so I call on Members to reject these amendments.

Laura Jones to respond.

Diolch, Llywydd. I obviously anticipated the rejection of our probing amendment, but I thank the Minister for providing further clarity on the matter, even though I ultimately disagree with the approach. I am, however, disappointed that my amendments to clarify that Part 4 of the Bill will be applicable to degree apprenticeships as well, as to better define the relevant terms within the Bill, were rejected. I feel this is a great missed opportunity, and I implore the Minister to revise his stance on the matter, going forward. Thank you. Diolch.

The question is that amendment 86 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, we'll move to a vote on amendment 86. Open the vote.

Amendment 86.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 86 is not agreed.

Amendment 22, Minister, is it being moved?

Move.

Yes, amendment 22. Does any Member object? No, there is no objection. Therefore, amendment 22 is agreed.

Amendment 87, is it moved, Laura Jones?

Move.

Amendment 87, is there objection? [Objection.] Yes, there is. Therefore, a vote on amendment 87. Open the vote.

Amendment 87.

Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, 38 against. Therefore, amendment 87 is not agreed.