Local Government and Housing Committee

Item 2, then, is papers to note. We have a number of papers before us today: paper 3 is a letter from the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales in relation to complaints handled by Welsh local authorities; paper 4 is a paper from an anonymous leaseholder of an apartment in relation to building safety; paper 5 is the response from Welsh Government to the committee's report on the Welsh Government's draft budget for 2022-23; paper 6 is a letter from Gareth Wilson, a leaseholder, to Councillor Lynda Thorne, Cabinet member for housing and communities at Cardiff Council, in relation to building safety; and paper 7 is a letter from the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee in relation to work on the decarbonisation of housing. Are Members content to note the papers? Okay. First of all—. Sorry, Carolyn.

Just under the response to the draft budget, when we discussed capital programmes, capital borrowing, it was raised that the budget for maintenance of highways was cut and I think that the discussion through the Welsh Local Government Association was that, perhaps going forward, there could be a capital programme of supported borrowing to deal with the infrastructure and maintenance of highways, which—. That detail has not really been picked up and carried forward in that response. It's talking about the whole capital programmes altogether, including—. There's so much happening at the moment, such as twenty-first century schools, low-carbon housing, building new nursery facilities—all these fall under capital programme—but the fact that there's no funding for the maintenance of highways under local government has just been missed altogether now. So, I'm hoping that the Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee have picked that up in their response, because I don't want it to disappear altogether. It used to come under the environment committee. So, I just want to note that, okay, because I'd like to maybe follow it up through the other committee or pick it up in the future, maybe.

Yes. Well, if committee is content, Carolyn, we could liaise with the other committee and make that point and suggest to them that it is a matter that they may wish to turn their attention to, if committee is content with that.

I'm concerned that we maintain the principle that we don't tell local government how to spend its money, and it's a matter for local government to determine its own budget; it's not a matter for this place. But you know—

It was raised.

I know. Because it's raised, doesn't mean we need to respond to it.

It was raised here.

But, you know, it's a matter for local government to determine its priorities, not a matter for this place to determine those priorities for local government.

Would you nonetheless be content for us to—

Yes, as long as we don't breach the principle of—.

Okay. Okay. Committee content with that? Yes. Oh, Joel, did you—?

It was just a quick question with regards to the public services ombudsman's report. Obviously, it says there, in the briefing paper, that they believe that some local authorities continue to under-report their complaints. Now, obviously, that's a bit concerning, really, and I was just wondering whether or not we could do a bit more digging on that, just to see how accurate a statement that is, for one, and how serious that should be, really.

Okay. Well, we could certainly return to the ombudsman and ask for some background information that led to that part of the report, Joel, if you're content with that, and the rest of the committee is. Yes. Okay. Sorry, Mabon, I'd seen Alun earlier. Alun.

It was on the ombudsman's report. This is the latest in a series of reports we've had from Nick Bennett, all of which have illuminated some really important matters in the delivery of services. Nick is retiring as the ombudsman next week. I think it'd be a good thing if the committee could write to him to thank him for his service over the last seven years.

Yes. No, absolutely. I'm sure committee would be very supportive of doing that, Alun. Yes, I see agreement on that. Yes, absolutely. Mabon.

We have received a great deal of evidence over the past few months with regard to building safety, specifically around cladding, and I just thought if we could have, on the record, a clear idea of what we're going to do as a committee in this regard, for the record, so that people know what work we're doing on this. And I did mention, in the previous meeting, the idea of having a task and finish group, because it is such an urgent issue. And I know that we're looking at our forward work programme in due course, and perhaps that's something that we could consider there, because we now only meet every fortnight rather than every week. So, we do need to seek an opportunity to do something about this issue.

Diolch yn fawr, Mabon. Well, as you say, we'll be discussing the forward work programme later, so I'm very happy to discuss it at that time, if that's okay, Mabon. Yes. Okay. Are Members content to note the papers, subject to those comments and actions? Okay, that's great. Thank you very much.

Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the following items: items 4, 5, 6, 7 and 9 of this meeting. Is committee content to do so? I see that committee is. Thank you very much. We will then move to private session.

Let me welcome everyone back to this meeting of the Local Government and Housing Committee, and we have reached item 8 on our agenda today, which is a further and, in fact, last evidence session with regard to the committee's inquiry into second homes. I'm very pleased to welcome Jeremy Miles, Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to committee today, and also Bethan Webb, who is deputy director for Welsh language in Welsh Government, and we're also joined remotely by Amelia John, deputy director, housing policy, and Iddon Edwards, head of language planning in the Welsh Government. So, thank you all very much, Minister and officials, for joining committee today.

Perhaps I might begin, Minister, with a couple of general questions, and, firstly, how Welsh Government is ensuring the Welsh language is considered as part of all policy development on second homes. Obviously, we know there's a range of policy areas engaged here, including housing tax, tourism and, indeed, planning. So, how is that being addressed across the piece, Minister, rather than as a stand-alone issue?

Thank you, Chair. Just to say, if I may, from the outset, that succeeding in this area means that we have to collaborate in every part of Government, including in the areas that you've referred to in your question. So, it's a cross-cutting field and every Minister has responsibility to ensure that, in doing this work, we increase the use of the Welsh language and the number of speakers. So, this policy area has the Welsh language at its heart.

I chair a cross-party group, which meets occasionally to update other parties on what we're doing, and that includes the climate change Minister and the finance Minister. So, that shows that our work as Ministers does intertwine.

And the division for the Welsh language—officials are part of a cross-departmental group that discusses these issues. So, every part of this area means that we as Ministers and officials have to work together.

Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Could I move on to the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan'? Given the scale of the challenge, and we know these are difficult issues that have been around for some time, but are definitely worsening, is that 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' the right approach to deal with the scale of the challenge, and are the ambitions within it appropriate?

Yes, Chair, I think it is. If you look at the Brooks report, 'Datblygu polisïau newydd yng Nghymru' and also the Gwynedd report, you see very clearly in those the impact of large numbers of second homes in particular on our Welsh-speaking communities. Obviously, the Minister for Climate Change has announced a three-pronged approach in relation to the areas that she is principally responsible for, and I think what the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' does is provide a range of additional interventions that can complement the three-pronged approach that Julie James announced at the end of last year, and it's a sort of toolkit, if you like. Some of them are around—. I think, conceptually—if I may, Chair, for a second—what we have in the three-pronged approach that the Minister for Climate Change has announced is a set of interventions around, principally, housing, and what the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan' does is link that with a range of other interventions that are particular to Welsh language communities, but extend beyond housing. So, that's the kind of framing for it, if you like, in the way we've developed it together. And, obviously, the pilot will provide an opportunity to look not just at some of the interventions that Julie has in mind, but how they relate, perhaps, to some of the interventions in this plan as well.

Okay. I think Alun Davies wanted to come in at this point. Alun.

Thank you very much, John. I just wanted to understand, Minister, what your objectives are for this community plan—because I'm reading the English here, so it's the 'Welsh Language Communities Housing Plan'. So, this is a plan for housing for Welsh-speaking communities. Is that right? So, what is your ambition here? What are your objectives, not just for the pilot, but the plan itself?

Well, there are around seven or eight interventions that are going to be—

I understand that, but what are your objectives?

Yes, yes. If you look at the interventions, it shows a range of things that need doing, so there are challenges in terms of housing—we understand those; we have a plan there—but they don't give us the full picture in terms of what's important in our Welsh-speaking communities. There are other factors at play there in terms of economic regeneration, and we have examples of things that have worked in different parts of Wales. There are a number of ideas in terms of co-operatives, et cetera, but also the cultural element, perhaps, that goes hand in hand with this. Of course, housing interventions are part of that, but also things such as explaining the cultural context to people who may be moving into communities. There are already innovative things happening on the Llŷn peninsula. There's good work happening in terms of welcome packs and so on for people who move into these areas. So, there's a wider cultural dimension to things too. So, that gives the specific context to Welsh-speaking communities that goes hand in hand with the work that Julie and Rebecca Evans have been doing too.

Yes, yes, but what are your objectives?

Ensuring that, when people move into an area, they are given an explanation of the wider context and also giving people economic opportunities to stay in their communities and also creating spaces where the Welsh language can prosper.

So, how do you know that you've succeeded?

Well, that more of these things happen.

Okay. So, there aren't specific objectives and targets that have been set.

Well, if you ask for a target regarding the impact of the cultural ambassadors, where we are today, when we're consulting, I would argue that it's too soon to look at that.

But, surely, the time to set a target is when you're starting a policy process, so that you know what you're going to do. So, you're talking about the way that you're going to intervene—. And I agree with what you intend to do, by the way, but what concerns me is that we're going to intervene in the communities in the way that you've described—and that's fine—but you don't know how you're going to succeed.

Well, there are a number of ways that we can evaluate things; it's not just setting targets. So, at the moment, in another part of the portfolio, for example, we're re-evaluating the Welsh grants scheme, and we're looking at that with fresh eyes to see if they go hand in hand with the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. There will be evaluation work as part of this plan also when we publish that strategy after the consultation. And also, the commission's work will give a context to all of this. But I do accept the point that evaluation is needed as to whether we've succeeded or not. I don't, myself, think that targets in this specific area are very useful.

Why?

Because how are you going to explain to people—? For example, you could say the increase in the use of the language after an annual survey. You could use that, and that would be a valid way of measuring that. But what's challenging is linking one intervention with the result. So, that's the challenge, I would suggest.

Okay. One further question from me, Minister, before we move on to other committee members, and that concerns the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and how it has affected the development of that Welsh language communities housing plan, because obviously the future generations Act is a very significant piece of legislation, and really should be applied across the board of Welsh Government activity.

Well, Chair, I think it reflects a number of the well-being goals in the legislation, about cohesive communities, global responsibility, about vibrant Welsh language communities. So, in that sense, I think it's, in terms of its objectives, very consistent. But there are also lessons that we have learned from the ways of working. So, this does involve working on a very cross-Government basis, it does involve working in a very joined-up way with our partners, but perhaps the most fundamental way, I think, in which it echoes the requirements of the Act is that this is about ensuring the sustainability of the language into future generations. So, in that sense, I think it's very, very aligned.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. And now Alun Davies.

I would like to know how you're developing policy. Julie, more than you, has responded to the Simon Brooks paper, but how do you develop a national policy framework that will include Blaenau Gwent and the Llŷn peninsula, but also include that flexibility to respond to the different situation in Aberdaron and Abertillery, for example?

Well, I would say that you start from the other side. What we have here is a range of interventions that enable you to start on that local basis, and then look at the regional level and then the national element. So, at the heart of this idea is that we reflect the specific needs of the communities that are impacted most, and that element of empowerment, if you like, is part of that vision. And then you offer a range, a variety of things that could be done that meet the specific needs in a particular community. So, I think that one of the things that will develop here is that we'll see innovation in some communities and that will demonstrate good practice that we can ensure will take place in other areas too.

The debate that we had in the Senedd yesterday about the premium on council tax. I completely agreed with it, and think that that's an important policy statement, but it's more difficult, to some extent, for Gwynedd Council or Ceredigion council to implement the policy than it is for the Welsh Government, because they're the ones that will be under those various pressures. So, should the Welsh Government take responsibility for taking action where we understand and know that there is a problem? The evidence that we've seen is quite clear, in my view, that there's a serious problem with second homes, using Dwyfor as an example—that's where the pilot is. And as a result, is there a responsibility on the Welsh Government to intervene itself?

Well, if you are suggesting that the Welsh Government should be setting council tax, then I'm not sure—

No, but do more. I'm not suggesting that, but whether the Welsh Government should be doing more to support Gwynedd Council, for example. Because I see that the Welsh Government is a stronger governmental body than a county council, and the Welsh Government has that strength to be able to intervene in a way that a county council can't.

Well, it depends what you mean, in terms of what intervention you want to make. There are things that we could do on a national level. I would argue that we have to ensure—. There is a diversity, isn't there, across Wales in terms of the impact of second homes, for example, and in order to reflect the local circumstances, I think it should be the responsibility of local government to do that. You could, at the other extreme—. This isn't what you're saying, but you could say, 'Well, it's up to us to decide on all of these interventions.' I don't think that would be appropriate. I think it should be up to local government to do that, in collaboration with communities on the ground. What we're seeing is the other challenge, namely that communities are calling for more local interventions. So, I'm sure that that will be reflected in the work that local councils will be doing in response to that. But, this is a toolkit to provide the tools to local authorities.

Yes, I see that and, to some extent, I quite like the idea of the Welsh Government or the Senedd creating different powers for local councils to use and to implement. I like the idea. But I'm wondering whether that, from time to time, is a way for the Welsh Government actually to be given an opportunity to not really take action when it should be taking action, because it's the Welsh Government that have set the target of a million speakers, not Gwynedd Council.

Okay, that's one way of looking at it, but what I would say is that the demand, on the whole—. There was a problem in that the Government hadn't so far created that possibility of a response. And I know that some wished that we had moved more quickly, but I think that we moved as quickly as we could. But, in terms of each of the interventions, there has been a lot of progress, and that's our function as a Government, to provide that, I would argue.

The other element—and this is really important, I think, and this is why the pilot is so beneficial—is that the relationship between one intervention and every other intervention is very important, and that needs to look different in each community. That's what I would argue. For example, in parts of north Wales, the question of second homes is a truly important question, but perhaps short-term accommodation wouldn't be as important. So, it's a very complex picture, of course. So, the relationship between each intervention is important, and I believe that that's also an argument in favour of putting this toolkit, on the whole, in the same body's hands.

Okay. That's fair.

Minister, could I just ask you about the Welsh language commission, which has been set up to make recommendations on the future of Welsh as a community language and, indeed, link into the community housing plan? I guess it's often tempting for Government, Minister, when faced with difficult problems, to set up a commission or a committee because, in itself, that's something the Government can point to, as having done something. But, obviously, it's a question of whether it's necessary and what it will actually achieve. And we've had, I think, mixed evidence on this, really. But I wonder if you could begin by saying why you think that commission is necessary, given that we have existing commissioners with important roles.

Well, the first thing to say, Chair, in terms of the fact that we have commissioners and whether this is a function for them, well, that question arises, I think, because we've called it a commission. I think that the work that they do is entirely different, so I don't see that there is a link between those two entities. This isn't another public body; it's a group of experts, specialists, who advise the Government on the sociolinguistic situation with regard to the Welsh language in communities across Wales, and that varies from place to place. Therefore, they can respond to challenges, and specific recent challenges in terms of COVID and Brexit, which have had an impact on our communities. They will need to look at the results of the census this year and assist us as a Government in responding to that in terms of the trajectory of 'Cymraeg 2050' in general, and develop a model that will dovetail with this idea of areas of linguistic sensitivity, namely, not a Gaeltacht, where you have specific boundaries, but communities across Wales that are in a different place in their journey in terms of their relationship with the Welsh language. That enables us as a Government, if there is an evidence base that is dependable, to enable different policy interventions in different communities. So, the commission's work, as I perceive it, creates that basis of evidence that dovetails with that work.

Okay, thank you very much, Minister. A further question from me before we move on to other committee members. In the evidence that we've already taken, Minister, there was a plea for clarity in terms of what Welsh Government means by 'community language'. Do you think it's sufficiently clear in terms of what Welsh Government means when it uses that term?

Well, I hope so, Chair, but I'm happy to set out what we mean by that. I think the first thing to say—

—is that the Welsh language is a community language, but it's also a national language. So, that's really important. I've been to a number of meetings in the linguistic community—not languages that are used less often or minority languages and so on—and one of the things that strikes you with the Welsh language is that it's a community language and a national language. That's not always the case, so that's very important to remember.

But, in terms of the question of what 'community' is, we could be here all day, couldn't we? But, what I believe and what we as a Government believe is that it's those geographical opportunities to speak Welsh face-to-face with people in your town or village locally, or in your city. Which language do you speak in the shop? Which language do you speak at the rugby club, or wherever you are? It's the geographical opportunity to speak the Welsh language face to face that I have in mind in that respect.

That adds to what I've said in other contexts as well. In terms of the ambition for a million Welsh speakers, the numbers of course are very important, but the geographical aspect is also important—that is, the distribution of speakers. That's what we have in mind.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Sam Rowlands.

Thanks, Chair, and good morning, Minister. Apologies I can't be with you in person today. I think you've probably covered a bunch of the points I wanted to raise with you around some of the local and regional flexibility on things, but, just more broadly, I wonder, on the back of what you've just said there, how you would see getting the balance right between protecting the Welsh language—naturally, protectionism can be quite inward looking—versus then being a bold, ambitious, outward looking, welcoming country, and using the Welsh language to enable that to happen. So, how would you see that balance working, especially in areas in the context we're talking today, where there is a high prevalence of second homes? What do you think the Government's role is in getting that balance right? I'll have some more questions on the back of that. Thanks.

Well, I don't think there's a tension, actually, between being a welcoming, outward-looking country and wanting to ensure that we organise our economy and our society in a way that protects one of our key national assets, which is our language. I don't think any nation would regard those things as being in tension. And actually, at the heart of the Welsh language communities housing plan is, as we touched on a little earlier, that idea of sustainable communities and sustainable Welsh speaking communities. And that means communities where people can afford to live, if that is their choice—local people who want to continue living in their area can do that. That's important from a community sustainability and a language sustainability perspective, but also that it's economically sustainable. So, in parts of this plan and in other work that we are doing, you'll see those two things coming together. I don't think those two things are in tension. I think the challenge of imagination is to try and see how the interventions that we have can deliver both those objectives.

Sam.

Yes, thanks, Chair, and thanks, Minister, for that response. I absolutely agree in terms of making sure that those two things are working closely together. And, as you'll know, the visitor economy in my region, North Wales, is worth around £3.5 billion a year. I wonder how you would see the Welsh language in terms of growing our economy, especially in terms of growing and promoting the visitor economy in Wales.

Sorry, could you just repeat the question? I didn't quite catch the—

Yes, sorry. I was referring to the fact that the visitor economy in my region of North Wales is worth £3.5 billion a year, and I'd be interested to hear how you see the Welsh language being used to grow our economy, as perhaps a unique selling point in some ways of why Wales is such a brilliant nation, and how Welsh can be used to boost our economy, boost jobs, and especially within the visitor context as well.

I think, in our tourism offer as a country, we do celebrate our language as one of the gems of Welsh life, and I think that is a real asset for us, obviously. Within the context of this particular plan, you'll see that one of the ideas that we are consulting on is the idea of cultural ambassadors, which is based on work that already is happening in the Llŷn peninsula and in Ireland, actually, around, I think they're called, 'eco museums', where individuals are taken on to be ambassadors of the local history, local culture, the Welsh language more broadly. And that has a tourism offer, but it also has an offer for people moving in to live in those communities, and I think there's some success that we can build on there.

Can I just come back one more time, Chair?

Yes.

Thanks, Minister, for that. I've just thought of an example, as we're sitting on the Local Government and Housing Committee. I know Conwy council, where I'm still a councillor, put together a cultural strategy, which linked together culture and the economy. And I'm just wondering where your thoughts might be in terms of similar things being put together in other places in Wales to actually ensure that they're not seen as two separate entities, and that culture and the economy actually work hand in hand, and in particular the role of the Welsh language in boosting our economy and providing those brilliant jobs that we can offer in Wales.

Yes, I think we'd all support that, wouldn't we? I think, in my own local authority area as well, that sort of work is happening. And in the work that we do as a Government in the round-table on the economy and language, that is tied into the work that we're doing at a governmental level. So, certainly, we'd encourage that to happen across Wales as well.

Okay. Thank you, Sam. Thank you, Minister. Carolyn.

Could you tell me about the Arfor 2 programme, and how it will be developed to support the aims of Welsh-language communities? I'd like to hear a bit more about that, please.

Right. The work on Arfor 2 is being led by the Minister for Economy, with the designated Member on behalf of Plaid Cymru, as part of the co-operation agreement. What will happen is that the work that has already happened in part 1 of Arfor will be developed further. There's been an evaluation of the efficiency and effectiveness of the interventions made as a result of Arfor, and there are interesting lessons to be learnt from that. One of the things was how important this idea is of a wraparound in terms of the support that is available. So, financial support, skills support, mentoring support, yes, but also the range of other things that are important to ensure that we can encourage people to live and prosper in their communities, and some of these things are included in the scheme that we're discussing today. So, I see Arfor and the scheme we're discussing today working hand in hand. They have a common aim, if you like.

Thank you. We went to an inspiring schools event, where all the colleges have been working in competitions, and Dafydd from Coleg Menai, Coleg Meirion Dwyfor, at the end, when he was wrapping up, he was saying, 'I hope that all your apprentices and people that are studying for this will use their skills in the local area and stay here locally'. I think that's really important as well, isn't it, that, as young people progress and learn skill sets, they are able to stay in their local area, with affordable housing. When we've been taking evidence here, in a lot of our beautiful areas in the west and the north, where the Welsh language is prevalent, there aren't many areas to develop houses and affordable houses as well. So, how can we overcome that? What measures are in place to ensure that there is that affordable housing? Also, how can we encourage communities to maybe work together as co-operatives—we've been discussing that—to build affordable housing?

I visited Bethesda, and Partneriaeth Ogwen—pardon me, I'm looking at Mabon here because he knows the area very well—and they're doing a lot of work there as well, building stronger communities, and I also met with Grŵp Cynefin, who are building a well-being hub in Penygroes, which is fantastic, with lots of facilities together—so, a theatre, housing for older people, a playgroup facility, a nursery facility, and a pharmacy. I think that's working with Welsh Government. But I was just wondering if you could tell me a little bit more about those examples, because I know that people have mentioned to me that when they wanted to go to see the doctor and speak in their own language, the Welsh language, they were not able to. So, I'm hearing snippets of information about things that are happening, but I would like to know a little bit more, really, about what the Government are doing to try and build these sustainable communities in those areas.

I suppose the range of interventions that we are talking about today, and when you'll be talking to Julie James around some of the housing questions specifically that you have, are all pushing in that direction, aren't they? So, they're about making sure that there is an affordable housing supply, that there's opportunity for people who want to continue working and living locally to be able to do that affordably, and also, where people are moving into the community, that they understand the linguistic, cultural context and are supported to participate in that fully. So, there's a range of interventions there.

What I would say is that there are things to learn, in terms of the sustainability of communities, also from other parts of the UK, where, actually, the language isn't particularly the driver, or not at all the driver in some cases. So, for example, if you look at the Lake district, Gwynedd Council had a report in which they referred to two reports that the Lake district authorities had commissioned, looking at, from a sustainability perspective, the balance between second homes and the housing stock at large, and where the point is reached where there's an impact, if you like. And so, one of the reports talked about that being 10 per cent of the housing stock, one of them talked about it being 20 per cent of the housing stock. Now, if you look at Gwynedd's perspective, there are many, many communities that are very significantly in excess of either 10 per cent or even 20 per cent. So, I think we've some things to learn from elsewhere as well, not from a language point of view, but in terms of the point you're making about the broader sustainability.

Can I just come in there with another? So, moving towards north-east Wales, where you're not immersed in the Welsh language—but in my ward of Treuddyn, there are a lot of Welsh speakers there—there is an issue in these areas, concentrating on younger people moving into Welsh language education, which is really good. We've been building new Welsh-medium facilities, for nursery, early years, which is fantastic. And I think there has been a need as well for that, so we've really welcomed the investment from Welsh Government. But the issue is, I think, when children choose to go to high school, and to continue—. They've been learning at primary school through the medium of Welsh, very confidently and fluently, and then, when they just try to encourage them to go the Welsh-medium high school and to continue to use it within the community—. And it's a confidence issue, I think, with young people of that age, to carry on using it in the community. So, how can we encourage that to happen, especially when you're not immersed in it? I know, when you go to north-west Wales and it's all around you, it's so easy then, isn't it, to use it conversationally? But, in north-east Wales, it's not spoken so much, so what do you think we could do there?

Well, I think Flintshire is a good example. We've been working with Flintshire—and, obviously, you know Flintshire very well—on their Welsh in education strategic plan, and they absolutely understand the level of ambition and have an ambitious approach to expanding Welsh-medium places, both at primary and secondary, which is very positive. On that transition point between primary and secondary, my personal view is that that is not necessarily about a set of individual choices; it's about the context in which people live their lives, and the important thing—. This is why the use of the language is so important, because that changes the context in which people live their lives. So, the more you hear around you—and the way that your question is going—the more confident you are to make that choice yourself, which is why a relentless focus on use of the language, as well as the capacity to speak it, is so important.

Yes, and no matter how little or much you know.

Absolutely, absolutely. Most people in Wales have a few words of Welsh, so let's make sure that everyone's using what they can.

Okay. Diolch.

Okay, Carolyn. Joel.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming today. One of the things that keeps coming up in all the evidence sessions is that lack of data, that data gap, that lack of knowledge. I note in the report that you've said that it's vitally important to create that stronger evidence base, and I just wanted to get some idea of what you think is that lack of data. Because I know when we've spoken with academics—it wasn't Simon Brooks, I can't remember which one said this—there's talk of the impact of second homes on the Welsh language, but there's just no data, empirical data, to prove one way or the other. It's just anecdotal evidence from communities, and so there would be a benefit of getting that data. I was just wondering what your thoughts were in terms of that lack of data and what's missing, if that makes sense.

There are gaps in the data available. One of the functions of the commission under Simon Brooks is to help us in that regard. So, the work that the commission will be doing will draw in inspiration and will depend on the work of statisticians, economists, legal advisers et cetera, looking at some of the gaps in the data that we currently have. The census, of course, is going to be an important body of data, but might not respond specifically to the point you're making. You're right to say that the situation in terms of data, in terms of the effect of second homes directly on the Welsh language is a challenging subject and is complex. That's why the work of the commission is so important. What I'd also say is that there's a lot of evidence, a lot of analysis of what's happening in other countries, and that's important in terms of the context. It's important in terms of looking at the interventions that have been followed up in different places, but we need to put that in the context that what's happening in other countries is different from one place to another, so we do need to be slightly careful with that too.

So, you would foresee the commission commission further research into that—further university studies or even just doing its own on-the-ground research. But what about the Welsh Government, then? Would you be looking to do your own research or would you just hand everything over to this commission?

We've got a series of interventions that we're talking about at the moment—what we're talking about today, what you'll be talking to Julie James about, we've got the Welsh language community housing plan, we've got the pilot in Dwyfor. So, there's a lot happening in terms of Government intervention. They will need to be evaluated and that will provide a basis of evidence about how effective various things have been. I dare say there'll be a mix of success and less success; it's just the nature of the beast, isn't it? We will do our own evaluation of those. The point I was making to you is that the point of having a body of experts in various fields work with us on this from a modelling point of view, from looking at what a sociolinguistic model looks like in different communities in Wales, is that there is, I think, quite a big gap in the data that we currently have. So, that is really the work that they will be doing.

If there are no further questions—. Sorry, Mabon.

I have a few questions, if I may, please, Chair. I'm going to ask through the medium of Welsh. Just for the record, in terms of the pilot in Dwyfor, what is the pilot going to do differently or more than what Gwynedd is doing at the moment? What in addition will it do?

In terms of what's in this plan?

Yes.

The work in terms of the property agents working group, the culture ambassadors—all of that work may be part of the pilot. I myself want to see what comes back from the consultation. It's clear that the work that Julie is doing, and Rebecca is doing—a lot of it is at the heart of the pilot. In terms of some of these interventions, it may be of interest to test some of these in this pilot as well. But you could see these things at grass-roots level to begin with. So, I'd like to consider that after seeing what comes out of the consultation.

Okay. Because Gwynedd is doing a great deal of this work already, clearly, and I just wanted to understand, in addition to what Gwynedd Council is doing, what more is being done—

Well, there are some new powers coming in now as a result of the legislative changes, so there will be an opportunity to trial some of those too, perhaps.

That's interesting to hear. In your evidence—pack page 54, page 3 of your evidence, under 'estate agents steering group'—you note:

'For example, estate agents, local authorities and the Mentrau Iaith have been co-operating with the Welsh Government, by distributing local information packs.'

And then you talk about an estate agents steering group. The evidence that I've seen, and what I hear, is that a number of estate agents don't actually provide those packages, and that there's a struggle to get them. So, how will you get buy-in from estate agents? Because they are central to what you are talking about here. How will you ensure that estate agents buy into your vision and play a part in this process?

Well, those discussions haven't taken place yet. As I said, we've been consulting. I would be interested to hear more about the experiences that you've described there, but we've certainly heard examples of that happening successfully. Perhaps Bethan could tell us more.

We started the welcome pack in Anglesey, and we've also had discussions with Carmarthenshire, but I think that the interventions with local estate agents vary across west Wales. So, if we browse through the responses to this consultation and see that there is something more tangible that we can do across the piece so that we can get the same result with the local estate agents—. But the interventions are currently local.

We've also had feedback, and I think it's starting to come through the consultation now, that we need to revisit that welcome pack and that whole concept too, and that perhaps the cultural ambassadors also need to work with the estate agents group. So, there's work to be done and we need to analyse what comes through the consultation. But in particular, the interventions we've been working on are those in Carmarthen and maybe Anglesey. So, we haven't had those discussions in Gwynedd, as it were, as yet. But, there is scope, and what's encouraging, from the initial discussions, is that there is a desire to address this and I think that is what matters. I don't think we're going to get it right first time, but if we can get the estate agents on board, and wanting to work with us, it's going to be an important step.

One recommendation, or maybe one tip, is not necessarily with the estate agents, but that you work with solicitors, because they are locally based and they deal with the house buyers, so perhaps they could be deployed to share those welcome packs and language packs more than estate agents.

One of the main challenges facing the communities and the people who live, or want to live, in the communities is affordability. We heard last week, for example, about a hut on Abersoch beach selling for £200,000. There's a three-bedroom house in Bwlchtocyn going for £1.5 million. We hear about houses being sold in Morfa Nefyn for £400,000 one month and two months later selling for £600,000. For local people to be able to afford these, we are talking here about average wages of around £60,000 or more. That's not realistic. So, do you think that what you're proposing here is going to tackle the affordability issue locally?

This is part of the plan. As I said at the beginning, this adds the broader elements, if you like, that go hand in hand with the work that Julie and Rebecca have been doing. In terms of the supply of affordable housing in that very narrow sense, I will ask you to ask Julie to expand on that when she comes before you—that's in her policy area. Some of the work we have here will have a positive effect, we hope, on that, but you have to look at the whole picture.

Providers and housing associations are going to be at the heart of this. So, do we need to be looking again at releasing public land or ensuring that changes in planning regulations are made to ensure that more housing associations can access land to develop community homes for local people? Is that an option, do you think?

That is in Julie James's policy area, so I'll ask you to ask her that question, if you don't mind. I have an opinion, of course, but I'll ask you to ask her.

Okay. If I may, Chair, one thing that Dr Brooks has mentioned in his paper is that there's a danger that we'll see a number of people moving in who are unable to speak Welsh, so how are you going to address or ensure that the Welsh language continues to be a community language and is a vibrant thing for people moving in, that people see the value of it and learn it? Will this ensure that retirees, in Dr Brooks's terms, learn Welsh and contribute to local life?

Those are the kinds of interventions that we have here, the cultural ambassadors and so on, and this is just in a wider range of policy interventions with regard to the Welsh language. So, there are opportunities for people to learn the language. You have awareness in this plan of how you explain to people who do move into communities what the local opportunities are, how important the language is, and local culture is and national culture is, and that's part of the whole picture. Within this plan, the element that provides that is the connection between the cultural ambassadors and wider language policy.

So, what is at the heart of all of this is this voluntary element. It's all voluntary and depending on people's goodwill, be it estate agents or people moving in to learn the language. Do you think that we're going to succeed by being entirely dependent on goodwill?

Do you suggest an alternative?

I'm asking you.

Well, you want people to understand like we do what the value of the language is, and that people want to learn the language. So, we have an opportunity here. When people decide to move into communities in all parts of Wales, there are opportunities for them to learn Welsh, to send their children to Welsh-medium schools. We have a range of interventions that encourage them to do that. That's part of the picture alongside what we're discussing today, and I think that's a much more inclusive way of sharing the benefits of speaking the Welsh language.

Okay. Alun Davies.

I agree with the point that Mabon has been making, because what you're suggesting here as part of the plan—you're mentioning these cultural ambassadors, for example, and the estate agent steering groups—they're nice to haves, but are they really going to the core of the problem of people not being able to afford a house in their local communities, in their villages—you know, a fair chance for local buyers? I can go to look at a house in Kensington Palace Gardens; I can't afford that. What's the point of telling people they can look at a house, that house is for sale for £600,000, for example, as Mabon is suggesting, and if you're working in the public sector and you have, perhaps, a wage of £25,000 a year? There's no way you're going to be able to afford that. If we're serious about what's happening, that we need to really regulate the market, because it's the economic power that's at the heart of this and that's the problem, the cultural ambassadors aren't going to help much.

No. The argument would be stronger if that were the only thing we were doing, but as I said, this is part of the wider picture. There's a range of things that we're doing in terms of planning, in terms of taxation—

I understand that, but it's about controlling the market.

Well, that's what we need to do. They are interventions in a market that is failing. I agree with you; the market is certainly failing, and these are the interventions that we have to respond to that.

So, the Welsh Government believes that the housing market is currently failing or that it's not working in different areas of the country. This is an important statement. It's very important, and I'm pleased to hear you say that so very clearly, Minister. I take it that the Welsh Government, condemned yesterday in the Chamber as a socialist Government—we don't hear that often enough—is standing up on behalf of the people being failed in that market.

Certainly.

I'm pleased to hear you say that. What's the policy response to that failure? That's what we're discussing. That's an important movement, I think. I'm very pleased to hear that, and I do believe that we as a committee should consider policy interventions on an economic basis for Wales in the context of this clear statement that the Minister has made.

If I could just say that the foreword to the scheme that we're consulting on outlines clearly what our point of view is.

I'm grateful for that statement; it's very important. Do you believe that a house is a dwelling or an asset, and if it's an asset, should people therefore be allowed to buy houses to make a profit as an income at the expense of local people? Is that a principle that you believe is correct?

The whole purpose of the policy that I'm discussing today, that you'll be discussing with Julie and Rebecca in due course, is that we acknowledge and recognise that there is a need for intervention in the market to ensure that people have the right to live in the communities where they grew up. That isn't happening at the moment because of what Alun has just been discussing, and so that's our response, to ensure that people have an opportunity to do just that. It's a complex situation; there's a complex relationship between this and the economy. But I believe that the Government has shown ambition in responding to this in a swift manner, swifter than many would have expected. Some, of course, expect greater speed, but I'm sure that the ambition that we are showing as a Government reflects how important this issue is.

Joel James.

Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to touch on your comment there when you said that people should have the right to live in the community where they grew up. Why? Because if we look throughout history, even with my own family, we've all migrated around the country for work and everything. If it's the case that you should be able to buy a property where you live, and there's no jobs to support that, it calls for greater intervention then, doesn't it, to bring the jobs there? I just wanted to know why you see it as a right to live in a community. Because I'm fortunate; of all my friends, I was the first one to buy a house, because I managed to save and afford and that, but when I look at my other friends, most of them have moved out of my village to nearby villages or whatever, and they've just accepted that, because of what they can afford. I was just wondering why you think it's a right, when we talk about rights.

I think, if I may, the answer to that is in the question. You referred to accepting that, which I think supposes that that isn't the ideal outcome that they were looking for. People make a range of choices in life, and they should, but for those people who would like to be able to continue to live in the community where they were raised, and to earn a living and to be able to afford a house there, I think it is the job of the Government to do everything we can to support that, and that is what this range of interventions is intended to do.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. Thank you very much for coming in to give evidence to committee today and to your officials here in person and joining us remotely. You will be sent a transcript of this evidence session to check for factual accuracy in the usual way. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

The committee will now move to private session.