Children, Young People, and Education Committee

I'd like to welcome Members and the public to today's meeting of the Children, Young People, and Education Committee. The public items, obviously, of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference, and a Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Jayne Bryant, as we've heard, is unable to attend today and she's sent her apologies. Laura Jones will be absent for item 4 and following her questions on item 3. Peter Fox is substituting today for James Evans, and Sioned Williams will be leaving after item 6. Are there any declarations of interest from Members? No.

In that case, we'll move on to item 2: peer-on-peer sexual harassment amongst learners, and this is evidence session 6. I'd like to begin by welcoming the witnesses: Laura Doel, director of the National Association of Head Teachers Cymru; also, Chris Parry from the same organisation; and Eithne Hughes, director of the Association of School and College Leaders Cymru. We have a large number of questions that we'd like to ask you today. Thank you for attending. We'll begin with Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and good morning to all of you. I have a few questions to begin with to establish the scale and nature of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. So, I'd like to know what your stance is, as those who represent school leaders, on the scale and nature of this issue between learners in schools and pupil referral units. And we also as a committee are eager to hear what you think about the situation in our primary schools, because they weren't covered by the Estyn review. So, could you give us some general comments on what you believe the scale and nature of the situation is to begin with, please? I don't know who wants to go first. Do put your hand up if you'd like to start.

Perhaps Laura. Would you like to begin? Is that okay? Thank you.

Yes, that's absolutely fine. And thank you to the committee for inviting NAHT to make representations today.

I think, first of all, what we'd like to say is that we recognise that there is a problem in schools across Wales. I think what the Estyn report failed to contextualise is that, actually, the report focused on what we actually knew and not what we don't know. So, the extent of the problem, I think, is very difficult to summarise. I think what we can say is that a significant amount of work is already being done to address some of these problems. I know that the committee has discussed this previously and I think what's important to recognise is that whilst schools have a huge responsibility in this area, and, indeed, a moral responsibility, as we all do, to support learners, children and young people who feel that they are victims of peer-to-peer sexual harassment, I think we need to look at this in the wider context of a societal issue. Schools have, like I say, a significant role to play and do so to the upmost of their abilities, but I think what we need to look at is what additional support can be offered for schools to do this work, and also how we are going to address the wider problems.

Again, thank you to the committee. From the perspective of the Association of School and College Leaders Wales, we're pleased to be here to discuss this extremely important issue, which I think is all-pervasive and permeates through society. Schools are clearly a microcosm of societal problems, and I think that's a fairly obvious point. I hope you've received our report on this. I'm sure you'll have had time to look at it. It was report that was jointly produced with ASCL as part of the partnership looking into detailed evidence-based research on this particular area. You ask about the scale, and I think the scale—. As Laura quite rightly said, this is societal, and, if you like, schools become a pressure cooker for some of those issues as well. I would say as well that leaders are doing their very best. There is a long way that people have travelled around this particular issue, and it is important that we keep this in our sights and that we can do better still. There is lots more that can be done with regard to this particular agenda. Thank you.

Thank you. Clearly, both of you have mentioned that you feel, on the one hand, that this is a wide-ranging issue, and perhaps we don't even yet know what the extent of the issue is, it's so widespread. But, Laura, you also said that you feel that there are steps being taken to tackle this issue. So, because of those two things, do you consider that is an increasing problem, or do you feel that we know what the extent of the issue is, and steps are now being taken, certainly within schools, to tackle it? So, perhaps it isn't something that is increasing but something that is currently being managed. I just wanted to ask in terms of the nature of the cases that you've heard about in terms of the severity of those issues or the numbers of cases. Is that increasing or is the severity worsening? And to what extent has the pandemic and the lockdowns impacted on this issue?

I'm happy to come back in and respond to that, Sioned. I think, from our perspective, we are seeing the range of behaviour evolve, I suppose I would say. So, of course, with the prevalence of social media and various different ways of communicating, a problem that was maybe a face-to-face issue previously has certainly expanded to something far beyond, I think it's fair to say, what teachers, school leaders and parents are aware of. It's extremely difficult for anyone with children to know exactly the extent of this. The Estyn report highlighted this—you know, it was, '"We don't tell our teachers"'. I think that makes it an incredibly challenging issue to tackle. I'm keen to bring my colleague Chris in on this, as a serving secondary lead.

Just to add to the conversation, really, and probably a little bit of a unique insight into the issue. I'm a serving secondary headteacher, and I'm the headteacher of a single-sex boys school, probably the last one in Wales, but we've got a mixed sixth form as well. This remains an incredibly important issue for us. In terms of identifying its importance within our day-to-day practice, I think, as a head of a school, what we often do is we respond to community, and I think, clearly, over the last year, or two or three years, this issue has increasingly risen up our agenda and is something that we need to be looking at inside school. You know, everybody's talked about the scale of the problem. I'd have no reason to contend the issues that Estyn raise, where they said around 60 per cent of girls were experiencing harassment and about 80 per cent of girls have witnessed that. I think that probably underestimates the fact that most people within schools will have experience of, or at least witnessed, or can describe, an incident where they've felt uncomfortable or saw those issues.

I think, really, the things that schools are trying to do at the minute are very much starting with two things, probably. One of them is around awareness raising and really making sure that all the tools that we've got in schools to look at issues like this are being used. An example for us would be that we work closely with the White Ribbon campaign to make sure that we support all campaigns that they're running around domestic violence particularly—we've invited them into school, we use them in assemblies, they talk to our pupils, but we also use our social media platforms to highlight the campaigns that they've got. I think that can be quite effective and it raises those issues with pupils and allows us to have those discussions. But I think one of the things that I would focus on in this as well is that all of those awareness-raising campaigns are really, really important and they do allow us to highlight the issues to pupils and to the community about what we think is important, but, ultimately, it's about providing space within the school environment for young people to have those conversations with people they trust where they're able to disclose information.

I think, in the past, what has happened, because incidents like this have been normalised—. I don't think they've been normalised, I think they were always normal, and what we're trying to do is 'unnormalise' them. What we need to be able to do is allow young people to be in trusting relationships with adults where they can begin to talk about these things and highlight why they're an issue. Because I think in other areas of school practice, around bullying and around other kinds of areas—for example, in recent years, substance misuse—pupils have become increasingly confident that they can talk about those issues. Now we are saying this is important, I think young people will find those opportunities as long as we can provide them the space and the personnel to be able to talk with them. I think that's the crucial thing, because we can talk about these issues as much as we want in assemblies and on social media, but the bulk of the work takes place in face-to-face conversations.

No, thank you very much. Eithne, you wanted to come in.

Yes. I would certainly agree that this is a significant problem in schools, it's a significant problem in society. I think the idea of it being normalised is absolutely where we are at the moment, sadly, where young people probably don't even see the fact when they receive inappropriate pictures on social media, on their phones in whatever shape that takes, whether it is on Snapchat or whatever, Instagram, that, actually, there is so much of it that they just normalise it themselves and don't actually know that it is a problem and that it is inappropriate. So, it is all of those image-based abuse and harassment media platforms that I think, also, are part of the issue that needs to be addressed in schools. We need to look at media literacy, we need to unpick what is right, what is wrong, what is correct, what is normal within a healthy sexual relationship and what is not acceptable within a healthy sexual relationship.

The business of misogyny, I think, is something that does need to be pulled through all of this, and it's not to say that we need to demonise boys, because that's the last thing we need to do. We need to be working with young people, not either accusing or victimising them, but, actually, it's about raising awareness, giving them a language so that they can speak around this particular agenda so that they can have those open conversations and actually say, 'This is not right, this is not correct.' That's the big challenge that we have. I think, as a society, sometimes, we don't even see it ourselves. We walk into a shop, and we don't see that all the mannequins that are there in the women's section are a size 8 and look absolutely perfect. We walk past them and don't see that there are images that are curated on media that we see every single day that actually set us up for this particular kind of agenda.

Thank you. Just one final question to conclude my section. Clearly, everything that you've talked about suggests that you understand that this is a societal problem, that it is something that's happening outside of the school day, of course, as well as during the school day itself, for example online, as you've just mentioned, Eithne. What difference does that make at all to the responsibility and capacity of schools and pupil referral units to deal with these incidents?

I'm happy to come in on that and then let Eithne come in. I think that's a really important point, because a lot of this kind of behaviour, as you would imagine, happens outside of the school gates because there's almost a restriction in place in schools when it comes to the use of mobile phones et cetera, so that schools can manage what happens within the school environment. It's incredibly hard to be able to react to things that go on outside of school. I think one of the things that we would highlight is that it is so vital to make sure that there is a whole-community, societal approach to tackling this issue, because if schools respond to what happens in schools that's one thing, but if other services—social services, police, parents, youth workers—are involved, know of these situations, it's crucial that there's that mechanism for evidence sharing and information sharing. Because what happens outside of school is very much reflected in school and vice versa, and I think that is an area that we can all explore to make sure that those policies and processes are in place so that that information is shared across the piece and we can help each other in tackling some of these issues.

Diolch.

Diolch, Sioned. Laura Jones.

I think, Chair, that Eithne wanted to come in. Sorry.

Sorry—Eithne.

I think, certainly as a serving head, we dreaded a Monday morning because at the weekend there were all sorts of issues around social media that washed back into school. Schools can't be responsible for everything that happens in a home—clearly, it would be impossible. But there has to be a bit of a multi-agency approach to this particular problem. It's got to be about better resources. The diminution of resources over the last years, I think, has had an effect where you have got social workers who are thin on the ground, you've got ed psychs who are unavailable, school counsellors who are like hen's teeth, and you've got police liaison officers who, again, are brilliantly effective, but it isn't always easy to get hold of a police liaison officer when you wish to have that. It's got to be a multi-agency approach to this particular issue; schools cannot do this on their own.

Diolch. Laura.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to just ask you a few questions on the causes and impact of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. As Eithne and Laura have just said, it is a societal issue, but we do know it's obviously prevalent in schools. But, unfortunately, as Laura said, this is just the tip of the iceberg—we're only seeing the evidence that is collected, and that is a major problem, as we know. So, we can just deal with what we see, and I'm sure it's a lot bigger than it is. What do you think are the main causes of the increase in peer-on-peer sexual harassment? To what extent do you think that one of the causes could possibly be accessing online and inappropriate content, pornography and that sort of thing? To what degree do you think that that's been exacerbated by the pandemic and the amount of time that children and young people spent on their computers during the lockdowns? Thank you.

I think I'm going to go back to the report that we circulated to the panel that looked specifically at this particular issue, the image sharing online that is part of the sexual harassment and part of the sexual abuse agenda that we're discussing here. The report does clearly highlight the fact that this has become more prevalent. It is normalised for females to receive pornographic images, and so many that, actually, they don't see them any more to be problematic. They're concerned about talking about it, they're concerned about actually bringing it to anybody's attention, because it is part of normal life as they see it as a young person, which is really dreadfully sad. So, I think part of that desensitisation is there as a consequence of the volume of this kind of imagery that young people are receiving at the moment. But we also have—. I go back to the comment about misogyny, about desensitisation around misogyny, about not seeing it, not knowing that it is a problem because it is so prevalent.

I think over lockdown there has been, I think, intuitively we can say, with learners not being able to interact face to face, more interaction online of this sort, possibly as a consequence, and that evidence is there in the report that we've shared with you for you to have a look at. So, it is a significant issue. The causes are societal, the causes are part of that confusion of young people, of not actually knowing that it is a problem and, of course, what we're looking at is how to actually get at fixing this or solving it or bringing it to the top of an agenda for young people to know that it just isn't right.

Thank you. Laura, did you want to say anything?

I would just echo the comments that Eithne's raised, and I think Chris raised it earlier—we're almost trying to de-normalise this kind of behaviour, and, while schools are doing some terrific work around this, I think we need to look more broadly at what other people and what other organisations and sectors of society can do to support this work, because it's very difficult for schools to work in isolation on this. I think we're all in agreement that this is a societal challenge, and there needs to be an approach that looks at how we tackle this on a much broader scale than just focusing on what schools can do.

Thank you. From what you've seen, and from what you've heard, how do you think that this sort of exposure to inappropriate content online, for example, is creating unhealthy attitudes towards relationships and sexuality? I think Eithne touched on it earlier. And do you think parents are taking enough responsibility in this regard, and getting enough support?

I wouldn't want to say, as a parent myself, that parents are not taking enough responsibility. I think the challenges of the pandemic, and what we've all been through as a result, has made things incredibly difficult for families. I think we need to look at what support—. And I think it's very important, the point you just made there, about what support is available for parents. Eithne's touched on it, about the support services that were in place that are no longer in place: educational psychology, youth services, social workers, when we try and get hold of them to offer that additional support. And I think there needs to be a whole piece of work around raising awareness generally, because I think there is specific work being done for young people in schools. We know that that work's taking place, we know it's part of the new curriculum, and there's a significant focus on it, but I think, unless we can put the other pieces of the jigsaw together, go out to parents, make sure they have that information, and they are supported in those conversations—. Don't forget, they are some very difficult conversations for parents to have, and some people are just not equipped to have that. So, rather than demonising and pointing any fingers, let's look at actually what we can do to support them. Ask them what do they need. Are they comfortable in having those conversations? And coming back to Chris's point, it about making sure that there are those strong relationships with adults to have those appropriate conversations with learners, and I think there's some significant work that we can do there.

Chris, you'd like to come in.

As a parent myself, I absolutely get that. Sorry, Chair, yes, Chris.

Chris.

I think it's just adding, and I don't think there's any doubt at all, in terms of accessing the type of imagery and information that's available to young people, that it has a negative impact on their attitudes towards relationships. I don't think that's being questioned anywhere. I think the issue, particularly around parents, and that links back to schools, is just understanding the scale of the way in which people can access information, and the way that that has so radically shifted, even in a short period of time over a few years—so radically shifted. So, when we talk about parents being able to have conversations with young people, yes, they can around concrete issues that may emerge, but I think even if you think about a school, and the fact that myself as a parent and a headteacher at a school—I consider myself quite in touch with what young people are doing from day to day, and even I'm surprised at the pace of change.

I think when you begin to realise that young people in school literally have access to a variety of different platforms, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people will be identified as their friends. Huge amounts of those they've never met, and all of those people are sharing and exchanging information. That was in the days when we felt we were doing well because we were talking about Facebook, do you know what I mean? And then we had to deal with Snapchat, and we had to learn what that was, and I think recently, if you look at something like TikTok, which is even more of an issue in schools particularly, you haven't even got to follow anybody. It's not like you're actively looking to follow people—this is information that's just being dumped on your 'for you' page, and it's completely unvetted, and it may not be some of the more disturbing images that we see, but they undoubtedly can still influence young people in their general perceptions about women, about how people should look, about how you should act in society. And that is completely unsolicited. So, it is about media literary and how we teach people to be aware of things, but, again, just keeping pace with the change for a school is almost impossible, because there'll be a new thing next week that we have to catch up with and be able to discuss.

Can I just come in there, then, and just say that I completely agree with you? And it's also what social media has done, particularly TikTok, on algorithms as well. So, once some content is accessed, it then obviously just keeps coming up, and you can't control what comes up next. But, yes, I think Eithne wanted to come in next.

Yes, I think the gap in knowledge between social media and parents and learners and adults grows ever wider, as Chris has alluded to, and that in its own right is—. For me, it has to be a national debate. It's got to be a topic and a subject that is on a national platform where we are all working together. And who can teach us better about social media than the youngsters themselves? They're the ones that are in the know. They're the ones that are actually the solution to some of these issues, both within a school setting where peer-on-peer sexual harassment—no, they don't feel comfortable talking to adults in the school, and I think that's pretty understandable in many cases where we would encourage it. But they will talk to each other, so they are a part of the solution to this whole thing.

I wouldn't want to land this on parents in terms of saying, you know, that parents need to do more. Because parents are doing what they can with this one, but it is a bewildering forest of very, very difficult terrain that people are trying to actually navigate through at the moment. Thank you.

Thank you. Chair, just a really quick question, the last one—do you think certain groups are being targeted more than others? Have they got that targeted support that they need, for example an LGBT group? Thank you.

I think in terms of the general picture around bullying, for example, in schools or societal issues around LGBT+, I think there will be specific issues where, as a result of sexuality, there will be particular groups who will find that much more difficult and will be targeted as a consequence. So, again I think it's raising awareness and raising education and positive attitudes towards the differences and the sameness and that each of us deserves respect, and deserves kindness in who we are within society. For me that, I think, is absolutely vital and fundamental to this particular debate. It's about being kind.

Thank you. Thanks, Chair.

Diolch, Laura. On to Peter Fox.

Hello, good morning, all. It's great to be part of this discussion, and as a father of grown-up kids and now with seven grandchildren, I've seen many changes in societal behaviour over many years, and I recognise these changes, and it worries me that we need to get something in place, certainly, so that my little grandchildren don't get subjected to the sorts of things that, for most kids, have become normalised.

I want to really just probe a little bit more about the awareness and management of the problem within schools. Chris, I know that, as an acting head, you can very clearly see this and understand it well. Would that be the same for, generally, school leaders? Is this something that is on their radar now? I just wonder why we think that young people aren't talking to teachers about this, as was said in the Estyn report. I know you've covered that off a little bit, and it may be because for those young people it's so normalised in their lives they don't see it as a problem anymore so why would they want to talk about it to the teacher, but I wonder how is that general awareness amongst school leaders?

I think very much at the minute, like I said earlier, it's an issue that has risen up the agenda in terms of our focus. I know in our professional association—. So, in Caerphilly, where I work, we meet regularly as a group of headteachers, as secondary headteachers. There are 12 of us. It has been an agenda item in several meetings in recent months. It's something that we talk about and we share practice, particularly around the systems that we run in school that allow us to identify incidents being reported and the way in which we react to them. So, I think we tend to use similar technological systems in school, and we share practice on the way in which we've amended some of those to allow us to particularly identify these issues. So, I think, yes, it is very much there, and with something like Everyone's Invited, it was a headline-grabbing situation. And I think as a consequence of that, headteachers paid very much attention to what was going on. Similarly with the recent Estyn engagement; I think they've all been important issues in raising awareness of it.

To go back to that issue of discussing things and talking, I run a boys school, and boys don't talk anyway, so getting them to say anything at all other than what happened in the rugby or the football on the weekend is usually a challenge. But it is ultimately, as Eithne said, about creating those relationships with people, where they feel that they can trust you to talk about those things and to get good advice. And sometimes that's about—it is about investment, and investment is expensive, and it's about investment, often, in non-teaching roles inside school as well. So, we're very, very lucky that we've been able to spend some money recently on pastoral support officers, as we describe them, who are non-teaching professionals with 100 per cent contact time during the school day, where they can take the time to sit down and speak to people about what they've been doing in school. So, I think those things are vital, that you provide those opportunities.

And I have to say, in terms of that multi-agency approach, yes, the other people that come in—so police liaison officers and we've got youth workers who come into school on a regular basis—at times when finance becomes difficult, those things tend to disappear. I've seen them when they're in plenty and I've seen them when they're non-existent. So, at the minute, we're in a place where we are currently served quite well, but I worry about the future, about where we're going to go with some of the financial issues and about whether we'll be able to continue in the way that we are at the minute. And I think for this particular issue, if we're trying particularly to build strong girls who are confident and are able to talk about these issues in order to stop them, then we need that network of support around them, particularly for the girls that we identify as being very vulnerable. They need those people around them to give them that help so they can express how they feel, and that is expensive, and we want to be able to do that.

Eithne.

Yes, again I think it's in the report that we submitted that some of the reasons for learners not reporting is that they're embarrassed, and I think we can probably see that ourselves empathetically. They're worried that teachers will overreact if there is mention of it in the school, and that, I think, would be a concern, if there was an overreaction. But that worries them, and that stops them from disclosing. That the alleged perpetrator is also in school, that is going to be an issue, that they are in class, they are in school with them; that they might be targeted as a result of that particular person having been, basically, called out. And then it is about that idea that it is normal, that they don't report it because they just see it every single day and don't see a problem with it.

I think the other thing that I would mention as well is that the language that we all duck around—we've ducked around it in this particular meeting, some of the language that young people themselves have hold of, some of the pictures that they graphically are subjected to—we need to actually look at that intersectionality in terms of discriminatory processes and language as well and not be too shy about what we need to say to youngsters in talking with them directly. But the intersectionality, I would say, where girls are called sluts and for boys it is almost a badge of honour—we need to look at why it is that a girl is described as a slut for particular behaviours, where males are basically given the badge of honour for similar behaviours. I think that requires a lot of training, a lot of strong stomach to get at it, and it requires us to be much more forthright and much more honest in the discussions that we're having with these young people, and it might help overcome some of the embarrassment with those in terms of those discussions with these youngsters.

That's a powerful message. Thank you, Eithne. Laura.

Yes. I just wanted to come in really briefly. When you asked the question around how—. From a union perspective, then, we have our members asking us for additional support in how we can help them to facilitate those conversations with their children and young people. And I think, as a union that represents both secondary and primary headteachers, this is a conversation that needs to be extended into primary school discussions. I know there's been some significant work, and we've played a part in those discussions with the RSE working group on development of the new RSE code, for example, on how there needs to be—. Those age-appropriate conversations need to happen, and we need to not be afraid of having those conversations with children in primary schools. Of course, I stress that they need to be age-appropriate conversations, but we can't be naive and think that this is just a secondary school issue. There are children in years 5 and 6 in primary schools with mobile phones, they have access to things. They're not maybe developmentally aware of what they are accessing, so that is another challenge. But I think this is very much on schools' radars and something that they are tackling successfully, but need that additional help and resource to do so.

Thanks for that. I'm going to wrap three questions into one a bit here, really, because I'm conscious of time. How—? Is there a deep enough awareness throughout the school staff as well? That's a role for school leaders, to make sure that everybody's on the same page. Do you think schools have the correct policies in place, or are they in the process of developing these? And would there—? Is there a lot more training that needs to be made available to school staff to help them deal with this? So, sort of three elements there, but I thought—. You've covered many of the points already, so—.

Happy to come back in on that. I think, first of all, there's certainly an awareness across all school staff, and I would go a step further and say that everybody in the school environment has a role to play in this. It's not just about leaders and teachers; it's about support staff, it's about the lunchtime supervisors, who often have those important adult relationships with learners and are sometimes the people very much that these children turn to to have those conversations.

I think there is a significant lack of funding to be able to support schools in doing this. I think our campaign activity of recent years around—. The challenges of school funding, compounded by COVID, and the fact that we are still suffering a huge staff-absence issue in schools across Wales—it's not going to help the situation. But I think there needs to be very much more of a targeted approach to how we support schools.

Like we've all said, schools know they have an important part to play in this, but they can't be the only ones to do it. They need to have that support system around them so that if something becomes apparent from a discussion that actually needs to be escalated, there are clear lines of communication, where schools know exactly where to go, who to pick up the phone, to make sure that learners get the support, and that parents are looped in all the way along the process, so that it's not schools working in isolation.

Thank you. Eithne.

Yes. Certainly, rather than repeating what Laura's said there, which I'd wholly concur with, I would also add that there needs to be time and space for these discussions within a timetabled process, because, at the moment, the curriculum is so squeezed that you've got very little time and space to discuss these. Our report says that whole-school assemblies—. And God help us, I used to run whole-school assemblies, they're an absolute pain, but they are not the place. They're a place to deliver some messages, but they're not a place for the kind of sensitive discussion that is required around these issues. So, it needs to be in the timetable. It needs to be given space. It needs to be given time. And it needs to be with teachers who are also comfortable delivering the messages that are required for this particular topic.

It may not be that everybody wishes to actually teach this kind of work, but I think we need to all take responsibility, as Laura has said. But I think schools are working extremely hard to try and make sure that our youngsters, as part of the safeguarding procedures, are looked after with regard to this agenda.

So, Chris, would you concur that the policies are in place to start dealing with that safeguarding? It is a safeguarding issue, isn't it?

Yes. I'd argue that the safeguarding policies introduced in schools tend to be very strong, and they are easily amended to pick up on particular issues that emerge. I wanted to just briefly talk about the training issue. I think one of the things that we need to acknowledge is that there's some real strength in Wales. We're lucky around some of the organisations outside the school that can provide support. I would particularly name Umbrella Cymru, which we work closely with, that has some excellent training on gender and sexuality issues, and we've used them in school; they're fab. And I mentioned earlier the White Ribbon campaign as an organisation that will work with you in school.

I think that a key issue for me is following some of the practices that we've adopted previously, where we've worked together in a multi-agency way with local authorities, consortia, and these kinds of outside agencies, to develop resources for schools, because that's often the thing that's lacking, something you can hang your hat on. And around issues like substance misuse previously, we've seen some really good examples of resource videos, online clips that people can use then, that can be used in all schools to highlight these issues.

And I think, going forward, this is definitely one of those areas where that type of work will be really beneficial. And then 100 per cent agree with Eithne as well about making sure that we find the time within the curriculum to teach this, because it needs to be specific and kept up to date. And personal and social education teachers inside school are hugely valuable to us, and we should be celebrating the work that they do. And there is a danger with all the work that goes on at the minute that those types of lessons get squeezed in the curriculum, and we need to make sure that we preserve them and celebrate what they're doing.

Thanks, all, and thanks, Chair.

Thanks, Peter, and now over to Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the panel for joining us this morning as well. I'm going to ask some questions on data collecting and the wider context of bullying. So, I'll start with: what's your understanding of how incidents of sexual harassment are recorded and categorised by schools? And is there a consistent approach between schools? For example, are school leaders fully clear on how they should be collecting and using data? And are schools receiving enough support in this area? Chris.

I can probably talk about that one the most. I think it's an interesting area, in terms of data collection. So, all schools will run—and typically, now, these are based on technology—. So, schools will buy into packages that allow them to track incidents that are being reported in schools. So, in our school, we use a system called Class Charts—there are others that are out there—where teacher inside school would be able to record an incident. Many parents will be aware of Class Charts, because they're often able to link into those accounts.

Now, Class Charts as a system, and the others, you are able to edit the topics under which incidents can be reported. So, for example, with ours, we may have a general bullying area, where a teacher could report an incident of bullying. And one of the things that we've done, when we realised this issue particularly was going to be something that was important to us, is we can amend those bullying areas to allow for the reporting on specific issues—so, gender-based bullying, bullying to do with race, whatever that would be. So, the systems that exist in school are undoubtedly able to respond to the demands of the school and the needs of the school to highlight these issues.

The variance within schools is more about the systems that they use, and therefore that sometimes puts a limit on the way in which we can share practice. Because if, for example, a school that we work closely with uses a different system, although we can highlight issues under the same areas, maybe it's reported in a slightly different way. So, information that we receive from a different school, for example, may be provided in a different format and we can't then necessarily fit it into our systems. This is a very boring, nerdy point. I think, going forward, one of the issues for Wales generally is to be looking at the whole-school management information systems, MIS, systems in schools; we use SIMS. SIMS has got an ability to record those incidents; I'm not sure that they're exploited to the extent where they should be. SIMS is a big organisation, and I think there probably is some work going forward around how we can tailor some of that work to best suit our needs in Wales, and I think that's something that's worth looking at.

Laura, anybody else, want to come in?

I think Chris has covered it off, as far as I'm concerned.

Local authorities are required to collect termly data from schools regarding bullying and harassment. As far as you're aware, how is this data used, and does it actually capture incidents of sexual harassment?

I'm content to come in on this one. I think the umbrella of bullying and harassment doesn't actually cover—. It doesn't get to the data set that we need in order to make sure that we understand the extent of the issue. I think we know it intuitively, but we do need an evidence base for this, and I don't think that should come as a surprise to us. And I'm quite sure that local authorities at the moment are really trying to get under the skin of this particular problem so that that is pulled through. So, I think it does need to have a much sharper focus in terms of collecting that data. But what I would say is that it's what happens with the data after that that is more important than the collection of it. It's one thing gathering it; it's another thing what you do next.

What we wouldn't want to see as an association is that that data was used to blame schools or to be punitive in any way around a volume, because there will be a volume of—. When the data collection begins to be gathered, what we don't want to see is that, when that volume comes through, there somehow is a punitive measure that is placed on schools for reporting honestly. Because there will be consequences, if you like, washing back into the system, where people will be afraid to report, they won't want to do anything with it. This has to be about intervention and prevention, not about, really, punishing schools for doing their best with this particular—. So, we don't want to see, 'There has to be a downward trend', 'There has to be this, that or the other'; we need to use the data intelligently and build a proper profile of what's going on in order that we can put those interventions in place.

Laura.

Yes. Just to pick up on that point really quickly, because I think that's a very important point. We want to create a culture where schools feel confident to be able to report exactly what's going on, without the fear of any repercussions. We have had situations where schools have been challenged by local authorities' improvement partners on some of this data, and we have supported our own members in those situations. And the conversations that we want to have are the conversations that Eithne's just raised, which are: what are we going to do about it, how are we going to work together to challenge it? Because, if we don't know exactly what's happening, it's very difficult to find an answer. We need to create the space for the profession to be able to openly and honestly say, 'Look, this is a problem in our school, we need your help to work through this.'

Chris.

Yes. Just, I think, on some specific issues. So, in terms of reporting, currently, we do report on incidents of bullying every month. We pick out in that report—. In my authority, we pick out incidents of homophobic bullying and race-based bullying, but currently not in terms of misogyny or bullying against girls. I think that's something authorities can look at. But I do think, again, to go back to the point, and agree with Eithne, that what we're looking at then is what you're going to do with that information. Because that's going to be a larger number, for a start, because we're talking about a larger group of pupils inside school. And I think it's also, to just develop that point about not a punitive response, but almost how we use that information to see the differences. So, we have all acknowledged there's an overall message that we're trying to deliver here, but there are also specifics within the education system, even in south Wales: the differences potentially between urban settings around Cardiff and Newport and around some of the additional issues in those areas that are linked to ethnicity and the variants of ethnicity. And there may be some specific support in areas that needs to be provided there. Whereas in my Valleys communities, where I live and where I teach, there are potentially different issues there. They are strong matriarchal societies—we deal with 'mams' every day. They're the groups that we're working with, so we should be thinking about how we can respond there as well.

Thank you. And finally from me: how does the approach of the school and pupil referral unit to sexual harassment relate to the wider problem of bullying? And do you think it should be treated separately or as part of anti-bullying measures and procedures? Laura.

Sorry, Buffy, I missed the question. I've got a really bad internet connection. So, I'm just going to let a colleague answer and then come back in, if that's okay. Sorry.

I'm happy to come in with that one. I think it is both part of the—I'm not trying to dodge the question because it's a very good question—it's part of the problem, but it does need, I think, to be differentiated from the issue of bullying. It is also bullying, though, let's be absolutely clear. Harassment is bullying, coercion is bullying. Abuse goes further than bullying and sexual violence, of course, again, is at that point a legal issue and an issue that needs to be addressed at a further level. But the fact that it starts with bullying, if you like—and that's not to underestimate it—I think actually gives us a way in to discuss this more fully and formally, rather than saying it is something that is completely and absolutely separate until it gets to the point where it is actually, possibly, at the top end of things. And I think that's reflected in the relationships and sex education curriculum, as it's outlined at the moment—the stepped approach that's there.

So, I think it's a useful way in, but it doesn't capture the problem in its entirety. In order for us to raise awareness, we need to put a spotlight on it. But to get into that issue, we can actually look at it, as you say, as part of the issue of bullying to begin with. Thank you.

Yes, and I think that I'd agree. And I think that the systems the schools have developed to deal with bullying are effective and the kind of road map that we use is something that we should be talking about. I just wonder, in this case, where we are trying to highlight an issue that is so prevalent and can be so damaging, whether bullying is just not strong enough a word. And I think, in terms of us describing the behaviours that you've all heard about this morning, Eithne's right: we need to own that language and we need to make sure that we're not shying away from some really difficult issues by including them under an umbrella of a term like 'bullying'. It's stronger than that, it's more damaging than that. We need to be upfront about what we're describing here, and it's abuse.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. I'm conscious of time. We've only got about seven minutes left. I'm just going to ask a few questions about multi-agency response and then briefly touch on the new curriculum. How well do you think that schools and pupil referral units work with relevant organisations, such as social services and the police? Are schools, do you think, getting all of the support they need from these organisations and is there more that the Welsh Government could be doing in terms of maintaining a strategic approach to ensure that there is effective multi-agency working taking place? Laura, I can see that you raised your hand immediately.

Yes, thank you. Yes, I think this is a really important question and I think that, as a start, I think we need to recognise that there is some absolutely fantastic best practice out there, where multi-agency working is delivering for schools and learners. However, I would go as far as to say that that is not replicated across the whole of Wales. I think there are some challenges around that. I think a key challenge, outside things that we've already mentioned, will be down to funding. I think, when we look at the support services that have had funding taken away from them, we cannot underestimate how important the role of community policing is, and the important the role of social services and social care, youth workers, ed psychs. All that support network that was still in place in schools is under-resourced in our view, and has such an important role to play in this.

I think if we are—. If you're asking the question to NAHT members, 'What can Welsh Government do in this space?', I would say, fundamentally, we need to look at the issues of school funding and how schools are funded, the inequity across local authority areas, and we need to get under the skin of that. That is something that has been a key campaign agenda of ours. In fact, it was this very committee that made a recommendation a couple of years ago to commission a report on school funding. That report was commissioned, and the report told us pretty much what we already know, that there was huge inequity amongst the system, and it's very difficult to work out how much it costs to educate and support a child. It is a very difficult conversation, absolutely, and that's why trade unions are pushing to have the conversation, but a lot of these issues come back to funding, and, going back to the point that Eithne has made, and Chris, about space within the education landscape to tackle this issue, we hear a lot at the moment from Welsh Government about priorities for education, curriculum, additional learning needs—absolute priorities that schools need to concentrate on. Then there's the other noise around the school day and school year reform. I think we need to have a clear set of objectives so schools know exactly where they're going.

Thanks, Laura. Obviously, right across the country social services are incredibly stretched as well, not least because of the impact that COVID has had on families and on young people. So, when we talk about funding issues, I guess we could equally apply it to local government social services as well. Eithne.

Yes, I'm totally concurring with what Laura has said, and I think we've been saying this from the get-go: the schools want to work with those multi-agencies. They want to make sure they are pulling in people who have got skills and the professional skill sets that are required to deal with this kind of approach. And I'll also refer to the child and adolescent mental health services—again, underfunding there—that needs to support those youngsters who are in a place where they do need to talk to an adult. School counselling services are, again, very, very thin on the ground, and it comes back to the issue of funding.

A school, running a timetable, needs a teacher in front of children. That's always going to be the priority for a school in terms of their budget: get the teacher in front of the kids so you can work through the curriculum. But those wraparound support services have been the soft underbelly of schools at the moment, where, when funding is reduced, those will be the services that will be diminished as a consequence, and actually we've seen that over the course of the pandemic, where those are exactly the services that our youngsters need in order to get back to a recovery programme. We're talking now proactively about this next stage. I don't think it's ever been more important that we have a look at this.

The other point that I don't think has come through in the discussion, which I would just draw to the committee's attention, is that sometimes these behaviours that youngsters display in schools are trauma informed. They are because something horrible is going on at home. And if we're not dealing with that in terms of what it is that's going on at home that is causing those problems to wash back into school in a way that is actually looking at safeguarding in the home and family, then once again we're missing a trick and we're not actually doing a good enough service for our youngsters. Thank you.

Thank you. Chris.

Just to add to that—and I'd agree with everything said—I just think that in terms of particularly that point about trauma-informed situations and the challenges that families are facing, they are likely to increase as the cost-of-living crisis bites in over the next couple of months. I think we're going to see more families struggling, more tension, more issues, and as we've identified previously, girls particularly are the group that are affected by that. So, I think it is more of a need to invest in those services. I can speak from experience: when you work with police and social services, the support that we get is excellent, and we often make a difference to young people's lives, but those services and the people in them are exhausted, as many teachers have been over the last two years, and stretched, and the support feels very thin at the minute. I think everybody's trying to do a fantastic job, but they're probably trying to do too much as well.

Will the increase in financial support for school counselling services be sufficient, do you think, to address this problem, to provide the support for traumatised young people? Or is it still going to be insufficient?

So, we've got a school-based counsellor. We're lucky that we've still got one in school, and she attends school once a week, so she gets to see five students during the course of the day. It doesn't touch the sides.

Okay.

So, the increase in funding is welcome, but I would also say as well that counselling is not the appropriate route for lots of these issues, because some of them are just better dealt with by, as we've talked about, youth workers, other professionals in schools. So, it's not just about school-based councillors, it is that wraparound support from all of those agencies that benefit young people.

Okay, thanks. Unfortunately, we're out of time. I did have a few questions regarding the new curriculum, the teaching of RSE, but we can follow that up with written questions, if that's okay. Thank you for your time this morning. It's been incredibly helpful. A transcript will be provided to you. Please come back if there are any corrections you'd like to make to that. That brings our first session to an end.

We should now be broadcasting, so I'd like to welcome everyone to the seventh evidence session for this inquiry, the second session of today. I'd like to begin by welcoming our witnesses for this session: Mary van den Heuvel, who is a senior policy officer for the National Education Union; Mairead Canavan, who is the National Education Union's district secretary for the Vale of Glamorgan, and also the NEU executive member; and thirdly, then, Rebecca Williams, deputy general secretary and policy officer with Undeb Cenedlaethol Athrawon Cymru. We'll begin first of all with questions from Sioned Williams.

Good morning and thank you all for joining us this morning. I have a few questions initially with regard to the scale and nature of this issue in general. From what you have heard from your members, what are teachers' perspectives of the scale and nature of sexual harassment between learners in schools and also in pupil referral units? The committee would also be interested in hearing whether you have any information on the situation in primary schools, because, of course, the Estyn review didn't cover that particular issue. So, if you could give us a few general comments initially, please. Yes, Rebecca.

Thank you very much. I think that it is exceptionally important to acknowledge the scale of the problem. It is a serious problem in schools, and I'm exceptionally pleased that Estyn had undertaken this piece of work that starts to look in greater detail at this particular issue. I'm concerned that this is only scratching the surface, even though some of the findings are so powerful, so it is very important that we do all accept that it is a problem in every school in Wales, and that it is a situation that is challenging for schools to tackle. We know that it is a problem that exists on a far wider societal level as well, and it impacts schools as it affects the whole of society. But even though schools aren't going to solve the problem on their own, schools do have a very important role to play in acknowledging and taking action with regard to these issues.

With regard to primary schools, we haven't undertaken that specific research, but I have a strong feeling that we do need to look at this issue in the context of primary schools too, particularly years 5 and 6. Pupils have mobile phones, and I would encourage the committee or Estyn to look at the situation in primary schools too.

Thank you. Mary or Mairead, do you have anything to add?

Certainly. Thank you for the question. I'm able to share with you, as part of our evidence, that the NEU commissioned with UK Feminista a report in 2018. I know it is 2018, so it's a few years pre pandemic, but I think the Estyn report shows us that, actually, the issues are still the same. That report looks at sexual harassment and sexism, and it covered England and Wales. The findings from that report show that 45 per cent of primary school teachers say they're aware of sexist language being used at least on a termly basis, with 15 per cent witnessing at least on a weekly basis sexist language. Over three quarters of examples from primary schools given were sexist language heard with boys using overtly female pejorative statements such as, 'Don't be such a girl' and, 'Don't cry like a girl'. From our perspective, that may not be exactly the same as what we're seeing in secondary schools, but, of course, it feeds into the same narrative around gender being really important. And, obviously, equality is really important too, but gender is a significant issue. I hope that's helpful.

Just to expand on what Mary said about the report that the NEU did in 2018, we've found that gender stereotyping is a typical feature of school culture, and it's often reinforced through mundane, everyday actions. The NEU have, as well as conducting that report, produced various resources, both for primary and secondary schools. The primary resources are called Breaking the Mould. I think they've been updated in recent years and they are targeted towards the age of children. I think there is more awareness of how much of a problem gender stereotyping is in secondary schools, and sexual harassment, and not so much awareness in primary schools, but it is definitely, as we've heard in both reports, from Estyn and from the NEU, a problem throughout.

Thank you very much. Do you believe that teachers see that this is an increasing problem, either in terms of the numbers of cases or in terms of the level of severity of these incidents that they come across? Mary touched on it there, but I'd like to know more about your view on the impact of the pandemic and periods of lockdowns on this issue, and the way that the relationship between pupils and the schools changed as a result of that. So, I'd like to have your views on that. Mary, you wanted to go first.

I think what's really interesting, comparing our report to the Estyn report, is the extent to which the Estyn report says that online is a massive focus of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. I think we don't probably know yet the split and the effect of the pandemic. Obviously, the pandemic has had a massive impact on everybody throughout society. Schools have had to adapt and we've seen and are still seeing lessons having to be taught online because staff and pupils are poorly with COVID. I'm not quite sure that we know yet, but there is a marked difference between the two reports. Obviously, they're not directly comparable with the same cohort of people, but we seem to have seen a move towards online being the larger issue, if you like.

In terms of whether it is a problem that has increased in terms of numbers of cases or severity, it's difficult to know, isn't it? I think that society is paying greater attention to this now as a result of the #MeToo movement and things like that, and that's a good thing in that that is coming to the fore more now and we need to welcome that. But I think that the sense in schools is that the number of cases is increasing and the severity of incidents is increasing too.

In terms of the impact from the pandemic, there are two sides, to this, aren't there? One is that schools have had fewer opportunities to present lessons on relationships and sexuality and all of these elements, and there has been major pressure on the curriculum as a result of blended learning and a greater emphasis on the core subjects. So, many of the good things that schools are doing have been squeezed out over this time. And at the same time, pupils, as Mary has said, have been spending far more time online and things are happening in a hidden way on mobile phones, and a lot of communication is happening online, without communicating face to face.

Thank you. Mairead, you wanted to come in.

I think, looking back to 2018 and previously, it has always been a big problem. We know that everyday sexism is a problem; it's very engrained in our society and in our schools. I think in terms of the pandemic, I suppose that children had more time and more access to materials online. Sometimes, older teenagers may not have been supervised, and that's not laying any blame at anybody's door, but they may have had more opportunity to access materials that they wouldn't have been able to access in a school environment. And as Rebecca and Mary have said, they didn't have the teaching through RSE that they would've had and the guidance that they would've had at school throughout that time during the pandemic.

Thank you. That touches, in a way, on the next question that I have. Pupils were outside of school for very long periods, and they continue to be, some of them. So, to what extent do you understand that the sexual harassment that we are discussing today is taking place outside of the school day, for example, as we have just mentioned, online, and what difference does that make, if any, to the responsibility and capacity of schools and pupil referral units to deal with these incidents? Rebecca, do you want to start?

I think it is happening in all aspects of young people's lives, it's sad to say, in school and outside of school. Of course, that makes it harder for schools to tackle this issue; schools can't be responsible for pupils' behaviour 24 hours of the day. But, having said that, that doesn't diminish the responsibility of schools to create a culture and ethos based on respect and equality and ensuring that that pervades through school's culture, but also in formal education as well. If anything, it increases that responsibility to try to have that influence on pupils while they are school pupils and beyond, of course, as they go out into the world afterwards. That is the kind of curriculum that we are about to introduce, namely one that creates citizens who are confident, educated and open-minded. So, it is difficult. The key to this—and I am sure that this will come up several times during today's session—is that we need support for schools to do this important work.

I think there are instances outside of school where the school could exert some influence. For instance, I've heard reports that incidents happen often on school buses and walking home from school. I think if pupils are still in school uniform, then there is a case for dealing with that within school policies. But I think the problem is that there aren't robust school policies at the moment in many schools, and it is something that needs to be dealt with specifically outside of a school bullying policy. I think that schools need to have specific policies for sexual harassment and, as I've said, we need to deal with instances, as much as we can, outside of school as well as within school.

Thank you. Yes, we'll come back to that. I know that my fellow committee members have specific questions on policies and support and the curriculum. Mary, did you have anything that you wanted to add before we move on?

It's just to say that, with this, but with everything that schools deal with, there's always a balance between what is school and what is home. This isn't unique in that, but obviously, this does need significant training and resources for schools, building on what Rebecca and Mairead have said. We've got opportunities within the curriculum, but that training is really important, because we've got to get this right now, and we've seen enough evidence that it's happening and it's a problem.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch, Sioned. Over to Laura Jones now, please.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to ask you about causes and impact of peer-on-peer sexual harassment. Thank you for your contributions so far, it's been really insightful. I'm just wondering what you believe are the main causes of the increase in incidents, and to what extent you think that's been driven by accessibility to harmful, inappropriate online content, like pornography or whatever. Do you think that's been exacerbated over the pandemic, due to the amount of time that children and young people spent online during lockdowns? Thank you.

Who'd like to take that first? Mairead.

I think the pandemic has had a huge impact on the increase, because of the access pupils have had. But in terms of what has influenced them, I think there is very easy access to unsuitable material, such as pornography, which is really worrying, and also, there's been a huge increase in activity, for instance, using cameras, uploading videos to TikTok. Use of social media and digital use in everyday life has impacted upon the way that pupils now—. You know, everything has been exacerbated after the pandemic. These things were prevalent before the pandemic, but I do think that perhaps children had more time and more opportunity and more access to these things during the pandemic, and that has had an effect, when pupils came back to school, on the way that they've acted and the way that everything has increased.

Thank you for that. Mary said earlier that teachers need more support. Do you think that parents need to take more responsibility and need more support, and that there needs to be more awareness, so you can work as teams for the children and young people?

Yes. I think parents do everything that they can, and it's really difficult to know how to tackle issues that come up around sexual harassment. I think that schools need to work together with parents and with outside agencies. Some schools have really good community police who come in and give sessions around sexual harassment and other topics, which are really useful. I think that agencies, parents, schools all need to work together. Schools do need to support parents, because it can be really difficult to talk about such thorny issues.

Thank you. Does anyone else want to come in there?

Yes, I can. So, I just wanted to say that it's not unique, is it, as was said, but we believe that a whole-school approach would be really useful in terms of tackling this. It starts, as I've already said, with sexist language as well, and, obviously, not just sexism, but we've seen instances—the Estyn report particularly highlights the issues around the LGBTQ+ community. So, it's making sure that those instances are recorded so that we're able to know what the problem is, and young people feel confident to come forward so that we know how to tackle them.

Yes. Rebecca wants to come in.

Yes, just briefly on the question with regard to parents and families, I think that that is an important part of this situation as a whole, and certainly support for parents and families is very valuable with regard to how to discuss some of these issues with their children and how to try to keep their children safe online, but also that idea of an ethos and culture based on respect and equality. If possible, that needs to spread further than just the school itself, home to the families, because families also need to know what's acceptable and what isn't acceptable, and try to create that culture and ethos at home too, because some of these problems certainly emanate from home. And going back to that question at the outset on primary schools, if we see these kinds of attitudes and language from primary school pupils, it's very likely that it is from the home and the community that that has stemmed. So, certainly, we need to consider that as part of the wider picture.

Thank you. Following on from what Mary just said, I was going to ask you what certain groups you think have been particularly affected by this. Mary highlighted the LGBT group. Do you think there's enough targeted support for those groups? Or who do you think is being most affected? Thank you. Mary.

Our research found that it's girls particularly, obviously, overall, and we think it's really important that if it is a question of gender, that needs to be addressed and recorded. Obviously, inclusion is really important, so we've got to make sure that—. The findings of the Estyn report, as well, showed that, as I said, the LGBTQ+ community also suffer from homophobic bullying, so we've got to make sure that the recording systems are capturing any intersectionality, because every group is going to have significant differences in terms of the way in which they experience sexual harassment, but our report found, particularly, sexism being a problem.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Laura. And now, over to Peter Fox.

Good morning, and it's great to be with you. I want to push a little further about awareness and management of this problem, and just to try and get a flavour from you as to how you believe—. Do you believe that schools really understand, are fully aware of this situation of peer-to-peer sexual harassment? Why would you think that the pupils aren't coming to the teachers and talking about this sort of situation? Is there something missing here? Yes, sorry, Mairead.

I think it's something that is very insidious. It's become normalised, and it is accepted as a part of everyday life, really, within schools and within society. So, I suppose, up until recently, perhaps, many teachers and parents weren't aware of the exact impact and the extent of what was going on, but I think it is something that is becoming very obvious. I think there's far more awareness in schools now of how widespread it is and how much we need to tackle it and really begin to deal with it.

Thanks, Mairead. Anybody—Rebecca, Mary, any observations? Rebecca.

In a way, the question also emphasises why we need a whole-school approach to this problem, because I think all members of school staff need to understand what sexual harassment is and to recognise it when they see it and when it's reported to them, and what needs to be available to pupils is a whole range of options of people that they can turn to, of those people that they feel comfortable discussing these issues with, including teachers, but all school staff also. It's a part of creating that ethos and creating a safe space for pupils. We have to tackle that on a whole-school level so that everyone is aware and confident about identifying and responding to cases of sexual harassment.

Yes. Mary, anything?

Yes. So, just to add really that this is key, isn't it, that we've got the training in place so that everybody understands how to deal with any disclosures that young people make, any reports of incidents of sexual harassment. We need to make sure that everybody understands and that it's not just one person, but that they're able to speak to the adult or the person that they feel most comfortable with when reporting this, because this isn't easy stuff. This is very difficult and, as we've spoken about, society doesn't always react well to all of these things. So, the things that they're hearing online particularly are going to be challenging. So, a whole-school approach, I totally agree.

Thank you for that. Would there be a consistency across schools in their understanding of this? I mean, Mairead, you talked earlier about the inadequacy of school policies, perhaps, around this as well. How would you sum up that picture? Is it variable?

I'm not aware of any school that has a policy directly about sexual harassment, and I think that is very important, because if we only have policies that come under an umbrella of bullying, then it doesn't give enough importance to the topic and how much we want pupils to feel that they can come forward and report these incidents. There's a lot of evidence that they haven't been reported in the past, so we do need to be very much putting the word out there that, actually, we know it goes on, we want pupils to feel comfortable coming forward, we want teachers to be aware that they should be reporting things that they see happening as well. So, I don't think that the policies are necessarily there.

Training is a huge issue as well; teachers need specific training in this area, and that comes down to funding. Schools need to have the funding to be able to provide this training. And I would say as well that some schools may think that just going for an equalities training is enough, but, actually, again, it needs to be very specific; it needs to be about sexual harassment and how to deal with that. I think it does need to be specific.

So, on that consistency perspective, then, would it be variable across schools, so some schools are doing well on this? I suppose there are challenges for LEAs—different LEAs take different approaches to lead on this sort of thing. I'm trying to really understand how variable that situation is as well. Yes, sorry, Rebecca.

Yes, I agree with everything that Mairead has just said, and I think this is an example of where, perhaps, a template of a policy on a national level would be very, very useful for schools, with the right, of course, to adapt it to their requirements, but there would at least be a template of a policy that would include all of the elements that everyone would agree are required in a policy of this kind, and then training on a local or regional level that would align with all of those policy elements in terms of identifying, recording, reporting, responding and also the nature of the support services that should be provided to schools to help them deal with specific cases and to provide support to pupils and staff.

Yes. Anybody else want to add on that? No. I get the point on the training element, so I won't push any further on that. I think there's a gap there—that whole-school approach and that need to have a consistent approach right across the whole local government family, really, is really important. But back to individual schools, do you think school leaders are supporting and guiding enough your members—the actual teachers? Are teachers getting enough support? Mary.

Thanks. So, it's worth saying we've got members, and I believe UCAC does too, that are school leaders, so it's about everybody, though, isn't it? And I think it's really important to acknowledge, yes, training is absolutely critical and a whole-school approach is absolutely critical if we're going to seriously tackle these issues, but I think it's worth thinking about what schools are doing at the moment. We've got secondary schools now fast approaching exams, with young people who have seen the previous two cohorts not have to sit exams, and so there's the struggle of trying to make sure there's enough work there if exams don't happen because we get a different variant of COVID. So, COVID is still very much in our schools, we're struggling right across Wales to find sufficient supply teachers to cover classes because people are poorly. It's still an absolute pressure cooker.

Then we've got primary schools who are fast preparing for—and most secondary schools too—the new curriculum in September. So, we've got to make sure that we are realistic in terms of our expectations about asking the whole school staff, and pupils as well actually, to come onboard with this. We think it's really important, but if we're going to prioritise it, we need to consider the workload of everybody, including school leaders. But certainly we wouldn't want to put so much pressure on school leaders that it gets passed down through other members of the education workforce as well. So, it's just really important that support is there.

We've talked about training, but, actually, if there is money for training, and there is some at the moment, actually, the challenge, as I've said, is finding the supply cover to backfill people who need to go on the training. So, it's a really difficult situation in schools at the moment. So, I think there's a lot of noise, and trying to make this the most import priority needs to come with the realistic idea that there is a lot going on in our schools.

That's really helpful, Mary. Thank you. Does anybody else want to contribute on that before I finish? Yes, Rebecca.

Yes, in that regard, in a way, what would facilitate this would be ensuring that all of the support comes through systems that already exist. So, there should be help provided to schools by providing additional resources, specialist resources, external support, speakers and so on to come into schools. The Estyn report has been clear about that. Perhaps drama in education is another way of raising many of these issues. So, it's about not placing the whole burden on the schools themselves, but ensuring that there is an additional capacity within schools and surrounding schools, wrapped around them, to help them to get to grips with this. So, training, yes, but other things too, such as resources and services. This isn't really something that can be delayed or postponed, but schools are already under huge pressure, as Mary has already explained.

Thank you. Thank you, all. Thank you, Ken.

Thanks, Peter. Over to Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and I'd like to thank the panel for joining us this morning. I have some questions on data collection and the wider context of bullying. And my first question is: what's your understanding of how incidents of sexual harassment are recorded and categorised by schools, and do you think teachers know how they should be recorded consistently? Mairead.

I don't think, from what I hear is going on with reporting, that sexual harassment incidents are necessarily recorded separately, or that they are recorded as a particular type of bullying. I think that's a big issue. I think that everybody needs to be a lot more open about the fact that sexual harassment is a huge problem in schools, and then maybe we will—. Perhaps it's to do with—. Maybe pupils aren't reporting it in the way that we would report it as sexual harassment, and I think that perhaps that is around the fact that it's not discussed openly in schools, or it hasn't been in the past, and so perhaps there's some sort of sense of shame in speaking about it. I think just being open about the topic, and being clear that it is separate from bullying, would encourage reporting of it in a much better way.

Okay, thank you. Mary.

I was just going to say that this leads on to talking about—sorry if I'm going to cut off the question you were going to ask—. I think that the opportunities we've got, really, with the new curriculum—. Yes, the reporting at the moment isn't necessarily capturing all of the incidents, but we think it's really important that, as I've said, if it's sexism, call it sexism. That should empower young people to come forward if it's being recognised, because otherwise we're in a situation where, if young people aren't seeing that their concerns are being recorded appropriately, then there's a risk that they're not coming forward. So, seek opportunities with the new curriculum as well to ensure that those ideas, and obviously ideas of consent and development-appropriate teaching of anything to do with sexism, sexual harassment—it all kind of comes as a package that we need to unpick in the recording to make sure that we're capturing, when it is, as I've said, intersectionality between gender or LGBTQ+ people, or any other protected characteristics. Because it will have a disproportionate impact on some groups.

Thank you. Rebecca.

I think that this comes back to the previous question with regard to policy, because I think there is scope in policies to be clear about how to record incidents, and what categories need to be recorded, and then we would have national consistency. Because gathering the data is hugely important, because without the data we can't analyse the situation and the problem, and we can't see whether things are improving or deteriorating. It's vital, and I think that the place for that is in schools' policies, but on the basis of a national template, and then we can make information management systems in schools fit those requirements.

Thank you. I think you've just touched on this, but local authorities are required to collect termly data from schools regarding bullying and harassment. As far as you're aware, how is the data used, and does it actually capture incidents of sexual harassment?

We don't believe it's fully capturing the picture at the moment. We think there's an opportunity missed if it isn't, so as I've said, it's really important, if we're going to encourage young people to come forward, if we're going to tackle this, if we're going to create those confident and ambitious young people that the new curriculum wants to, then we're going to have to make sure that that's right.

Anybody else on the panel? No. Finally from me, how does the approach of schools and pupil referral units to sexual harassment relate to the wider problem of bullying, and do you think it should be treated separately or as part of anti-bullying measures and procedures? Mary.

I've touched on this already. We actually think there does need to be some separate tackling of this, as I've said, to make sure that, if it is a problem, then we're naming that problem and that people are encouraged to come forward, because it's going to be difficult to encourage young people to come forward if we're—and I don't want to say the word 'just', but if we include—. All bullying is a problem, but if we're going to tackle this specifically, then we're going to have to name it and make sure that young people are able to name it too.

Rebecca.

I agree very strongly with that. There is overlap, isn't there, between bullying and sexual harassment, but there are things that don't overlap too and we need to deal with those things separately. And certainly we have to be honest and to acknowledge, recognise and identify exactly what's going on. With regard to bullying, at the moment we don't deal with bullying in schools under one heading—there are many subheadings in terms of the kinds of bullying. But certainly I think we need to tackle this differently.

Mairead.

I was just going to say—it goes back to what I said a moment ago that, if schools don't have a process of reporting it that actually names the bullying as sexual harassment and sexism, then maybe that's why there's a perception that those incidents aren't being reported, because they're obviously being normalised and pupils don't feel that there is anything to report if there isn't a process for reporting it. So, yes, I don't think we're giving the message to young people that we think that is a serious issue and that they should be reporting these incidents, no matter how trivial.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. I'm going to ask some questions now regarding the multi-agency response that we see across Wales, and begin with a question about your understanding of how well schools and pupil referral units work with relevant organisations, such as social services and the police, in dealing with individual cases of sexual harassment. Are schools getting the support that they need? Is there a consistent approach in terms of the severity of incidents that are escalated to social services and the police? Rebecca.

Yes, it is happening, but I don't think that there is consistency in terms of how it's happening, where and when and at what level of seriousness and severity. I think it depends on school leadership and the nature of support from local authorities too. And I think this is an issue that we need to look at.

The idea that is coming through of community schools is a very interesting one from this point of view, because ideally you would have a school with all of the other agencies wrapping around that school, and there would be access for social workers, for counselling services and trauma counselling services, CAMHS services—mental health. That's the kind of model that we need, truth be told. Schools can deal with so much of the problem in terms of trying to prevent the problems and also trying to tackle the problems that arise, but there comes a point where they genuinely, genuinely do need those specialist services to be working hand in hand with the school, without long waiting lists and without barriers to access to those services.

Thank you. Mary or—? Yes, Mary.

I don't know if Mairead put her hand up first, but—[Interruption.] Yes, so I was just going to say we're seeing those services come under pressure too, and I think that's really important to recognise, that actually schools can't do this by themselves. The minute you start talking about the police—at the moment, I recognise it's not in Wales, but the case of child Q comes to front of mind, and I think it's really important that all of those services are able to respond in an appropriate way to children and young people and that, as we've already said, sexual harassment isn't just about incidents of bullying, it's about a whole-school approach to talking—talking about sexism as well—and making sure that even if these aren't instances we're technically calling bullying, that aren't meeting that threshold, that we're able to encourage young people to call out any inappropriate behaviour and language.

Thank you. Mairead.

I didn't really have anything to add to that. Yes, I just agree with what Mary and Rebecca said.

Okay. How effective is the Wales schools police programme? Could it play a greater role, do you think? No particular view on that. No. Okay. To what extent is there a suitable balance between the responsibilities of schools and parents? I know that this is something that we've already heard quite a bit about today—concerns about potentially some parents not taking responsibility as teaching unions would wish in addressing pupils' actions? Are parents and carers engaging, do you think, sufficiently with and supporting schools? Could parents be doing more?

I think there is a need for more communication between parents and schools on this issue. I'm not sure it's a topic that schools are comfortable with talking to parents about, and it is something we need to be open about. And as Rebecca has talked about earlier, in some homes there are certain behaviours that possibly would exacerbate the situation in the way that pupils behave. Yes, I would say, possibly, there isn't a suitable balance at the moment. It's something that we could make improvements on.

Okay, thank you. And is there any more you think Welsh Government itself could be doing to provide a vital strategic approach and also co-ordination to ensure effective multi-agency working? Yes, Mary.

So, yes. Any opportunities, you know—. I think here specifically, as I said, we've got the opportunity to think about this more widely. So, we've got the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, haven't we? So, that specifically looks at the gendered nature of violence against women. I think we've probably got to think quite seriously about how gender is—. A high number of these incidents are gender related, and we've got to look at that in schools, and I think if the Welsh Government is able to provide resources for that—. I've seen some resources from the Welsh Government on online sexual harassment, but I think it's really important that it's not all just online. And as we move back, we presume more time in school. Online continues to be important, but it's important that we're calling out any kind of behaviour.

So, I think a real inclusive environment for everybody is going to be really important, and Welsh Government can do a lot to support that. And then there's also the training and resources that we've already touched on. As NEU, we support the AGENDA resources, and I believe you're speaking to EJ Renold later today, from Cardiff University. They'll be able to describe to you how to best use those resources. So, that's going to be really important, but, yes, absolutely. I think I might have misunderstood your question, Ken, and it was meant to be about multi-agency working, so sorry.

No, not at all. That's really helpful. I'll move on now just to touch on the new curriculum, if I may, and to ask whether any of you have a view on whether the teaching of relationships, sexuality and sexual education under the new curriculum will help in terms of both preventing sexual harassment, and also in dealing with the consequences of it? Okay, first Rebecca and then Mary.

I think that there is huge potential with the new curriculum to help with all of this. We are aware of the nature and level of work that has gone into developing the curriculum for relationships and sexuality education in particular. Mary has just referred to Professor EJ Renold and the work that they've done on this. So, I think there is now guidance and a map for us in that regard, from the youngest children in our schools right through, to open up the discussion with regard to all of these issues, and moving away from this model of teaching about the mechanics of sex only to what the nature of a relationship should be, all of these issues related to sexuality too. So, we're on the threshold of a very exciting time in that regard, I think.

We need the support for teachers to know how exactly to deal with all of these issues and to ensure that they are confident in doing that effectively, and I think also to find out how to do that across the curriculum, across all of the areas of learning and experience, how to bring in those issues to pupils' attention for discussion across the curriculum, but also in an exceptionally sensitive way. Because, of course, talking about these things, when you're dealing with children who perhaps have already had poor experiences and traumatic experiences of sexual harassment—you need to know how to tread very carefully in the classroom, because perhaps you would be mentioning something that would be triggering for pupils in the classroom. So, it's not an easy thing; it's very complex and sensitive. But I do think that the new curriculum is going to provide exceptionally valuable opportunities.

Diolch. And Mary.

Yes. Thanks. So, basically, I couldn't agree more. I think there's a real opportunity, isn't there, with the developmentally appropriate way in which the curriculum is structured, or can be structured or should be structured, to make sure that we are having—that teachers in schools are having—the appropriate conversations right from the beginning of school, that young children are able to understand all of the different things about being kind to each to other, as well as about having those healthy relationships, and so the way that curriculum is meant to work is that it's completely developmentally appropriate. So, it's not introducing—. It's not sexualised language to young children; it's about looking at what we can do for young children to make sure they are understanding healthy relationships and friendships with each other, of course, at that age. So, I absolutely agree with Rebecca: it is challenging. So, making sure that everyone's had that access, the trauma informed training as well, to make sure that everyone is being taught appropriately, is going to be really critical and also a real challenge too. We've mentioned gender and the work of Professor Renold. So, yes, absolutely endorse all of those. So, I can't say more—it's an absolute opportunity.

Great, thank you. Yes, EJ will be joining us this afternoon. We're looking forward to taking their evidence. Mairead, anything to add?

I echo what Mary and Rebecca said. I just think that the new curriculum and RSE are going to provide us with a really good opportunity to promote gender equality through challenging gender stereotypes and sexism and sexual harassment in schools. I think it's a really big opportunity.

Is enough professional learning being offered at the moment to teachers who will be expected to deliver RSE in line with the statutory code? Is the training of sufficient quality as well? Okay, Mary.

I mean—. Oh, sorry, Mary.

No, no, Mairead, go for it. It's fine.

Well, I was just going to say that, with the new curriculum and the ALN Bill and everything that's happening in schools and coming in so quickly, the main problem is having the time to do any training around this particular issue.

And Mary.

That's basically the point I was going to make. I've already answered in response to Peter's question. There are a number of challenges in schools and making sure that everyone has the time is going to be really important, I think. There was a Welsh Government survey that came out—a report that's come out on the new curriculum earlier in the academic year. I think it's around two thirds of practitioners and leaders said they needed more support in order to deliver that curriculum, so it's going to be really important.

Thank you. Rebecca.

Just to add one thing with regard to the curriculum and RSE in particular, I think it's worth us noting our thanks, in a way, to the Welsh Government, and noting how robust the previous Minister was in insisting that every child should have access to this relationships and sexuality education. We know that she came under huge pressure from several directions to give the right for families to opt out, and she stood her ground, and I think we need to acknowledge that, because now we're in a situation where every single child will receive this education, and it will be an entirely appropriate and relevant education to them.

Diolch. Okay, just finally, do you have an idea of what proportion of schools currently have a designated RSE lead in place? It was something the children's commissioner was particularly concerned about—ensuring that an RSE lead is established in every school by this September. Do you have any idea of the proportion of schools that currently have one? Rebecca.

I have no idea in terms of numbers, but I think it's also interesting to note that a number of schools have seen the value and benefit of the new curriculum in this area, and have perhaps moved towards introducing RSE even before the introduction of the curriculum formally, because they have seen the serious need for it.

Mary.

I can't specifically answer your question either, I'm afraid, but what I would say is that it's really important, obviously, that schools use this opportunity, but I would say as well we've got to be really careful with regard to the way that the new curriculum works in terms of bringing together different disciplines, because I think, if we're not careful, we might lose some really experienced expertise in terms of teachers who do have subject-specific knowledge, and so we've got to get to a place where we're not losing it. So, training is therefore really important—it's important here, it's important across lots of different topics—that we are keeping our workforce trained and ready and not losing out to those who have brilliant pedagogic experience, but may not have experience in specific areas of the new curriculum.

Excellent, thank you. That brings the session to a close. Thanks for your time today. We are incredibly grateful. A transcript will be provided to you in due course. Please do check it and make any corrections if there are any to be made. That brings this session to an end, and the public broadcast will temporarily be halted.

Welcome back for the eighth evidence session today. If, for any reason, my internet fails me, I nominate Buffy Williams to step in as temporary chair, unless any Member objects. No. Okay, great.

Well, I'd like to begin by welcoming both Kelly Harris, who is the business development and participation lead at Brook Cymru, and also Iestyn Wyn, campaigns, policy and research manager. Thanks so much for joining us today to talk about this very important issue. We have quite a few questions that we're hoping to get through, and I'll begin, first of all, just by asking if you can just very briefly outline your organisation's role in tackling peer-on-peer sexual harassment amongst learners. How is this relevant to what you do? Kelly, can I begin with you, please?

Yes, of course. Thank you and thank you to the committee for having Brook come today and give evidence. We're really delighted to be here. So, in terms of who Brook are, Brook are the UK's leading sexual health, well-being and relationships charity. So, Brook were established back in 1964, and what we do across the UK is we provide education for children and young people relating to all things relating to sexual health, well-being and relationships. We talk about things like consent, sexually transmitted infections, contraception, healthy relationships. It's a really, really wide spectrum of what we do, and in England we also offer sexual health services for young people under 25. However, we don't offer that here in Wales.

And in terms of linking to the inquiry and what we do, so here in Wales the work that I undertake is going into schools and youth organisations across Wales and providing support, education and information for young people, all on topics relating to consent, so really, really important—understanding what it is, the parameters of it, how it affects them, discussing healthy relationships. And also we do a huge amount of professional training—so, trying to upskill teachers, youth workers, social workers, anyone who has direct contact with children and young people, around all things relating to this topic. So, we provide professional training on consent and disclosures of sexual harassment. We also offer our recognised traffic-light tool training, which is around looking at sexualised harmful behaviours of children and young people. So, we do a wide, wide range of things. That's kind of how we relate into it; it's that we're trying to provide the front-line information and support, so people can make healthy and informed choices for themselves relating to the issue.

Thank you. Anything to add at all, Iestyn?

Yes. I'll just briefly introduce our organisation and go into a bit about our position and the work we're doing on the subject.

I am going to speak in Welsh. I'm Iestyn Wyn. I work as campaigns, policy and research manager at Stonewall Cymru, which is the LGBTQ+ charity here in Wales. We do acknowledge and see the huge importance that the new curriculum for Wales offers through ensuring that relationships and sexuality education that is inclusive for LGBTQ+ pupils is available to young people in the future. So, we've been doing a great deal of work in preparing for this new curriculum.

Specifically for this inquiry, we acknowledge that there is evidence that does demonstrate that LGBTQ+ people, and young people and children in particular, can experience higher rates of sexual harassment as compared with their contemporaries who don't identify as LGBTQ+. So, hopefully, throughout this session today, we can give a little bit more of an explanation of our stance in terms of why that is happening specifically within our schools here in Wales.

Also, Chair, I want to say in this forum that we do acknowledge that there is a lack of understanding and evidence in this area, specifically with regard to young people who are LGBTQ+ and how often it happens for our LGBTQ+ people here in Wales. So, I think that is something that I would like to emphasise at the outset.

Diolch, Iestyn. I'm going to go to Sioned Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you very much to the two of you for joining us this afternoon, or this morning; it's still morning. It feels like afternoon. Both of you have touched on this to some extent already, but from the engagement and policy work that you do and the kinds of groups that you have been involved in, what is your understanding of the scale and nature of sexual harassment between learners in educational settings specifically? So, just a general response to begin with, with regard to what you feel is the scale and nature of this issue.

I would say that I think if we're being honest about it, we probably don't actually know what the full scale is around it in schools, because of a lack of really concise data around it. However, we do know in the School Health Research Network report of 2019—and again, we're waiting for the most updated SHRN data—50 per cent of secondary school students across Wales did report being called sexually offensive names. Particularly that was something experienced in a high number by people who identify as female, and that increased with age. But in terms of exactly how we're facing today in 2022, it's still not, in terms of data, really easy to prove. But what we do know is that anecdotally, when I work with young people, they frequently will explain and say that they do experience this and that it is something that they have seen and something that they potentially have either witnessed as a bystander or something that they have been subjected to themselves as an individual.

I know later on you're going to have someone from Plan International, and I'm sure they'll talk at length about their report and experiences of young people, but the statistics in their reports show again really high rates of young people, particularly of younger ages as well. I don't want to quote specifically, but by the age of 14, it's a really high percentage of those who identify as females who say, actually, they've experienced some form of sexual harassment already. So, we know it's happening, but it's just really hard to quantify exactly how much, without a bit more robust survey or research, maybe done by Welsh Government, to look into the issue substantially.

I would echo Kelly's comments there. It's very difficult as a charity to speak to this point particularly because of the lack of evidence that is out there for Wales specifically, but also internationally and across the UK too. Colleagues who work in Scotland, in Ireland and also in England acknowledge that there's a lack of evidence on this particular area in general.

But from our point of view, we are aware more widely, in terms of the situation of harassment and bullying within schools, that it is a huge problem for LGBTQ+ people here in Wales. The Stonewall Cymru schools report in 2017 notes that over half of young people who identify as LGBT have experienced bullying on the basis of their sexual identity or their LGBTQ+ identify more widely. So, that, clearly, gives us a wider picture of the problem in terms of harassment more widely. In terms of the kinds of harassment, that report demonstrated that young people specifically had experienced sexual harassment amongst the experiences that we heard about in that report.

I just want to share more evidence with you that perhaps has dated a little bit now, but it does show that there is a lack of evidence. According to METRO Charity back in 2016, almost one in every five of LGBTQ+ children had experienced some kind of sexual violence as compared to one in 10 of cis people—those who don't identify as being trans—or heterosexual. So, that's a percentage of 18 per cent as compared to 11 per cent. We do see that that is a significant difference to think that that was happening in 2016, and since then, the world has changed where technology continues to be an increasing part and a more prominent part of the lives of our children and young people.

More widely, we were part of a project last year with Stop It Now! and the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, which are charities that do work on preventing to sexual harassment and sexual violence against children and young people. What we saw through our work with focus groups there with youth workers working with LGBTQ+ young people is that there are additional barriers facing children and young people who are LGBTQ+ from reporting and from disclosing to anyone about the kinds of negative experiences that they experience. So, I would encourage the committee today, and beyond this session indeed, to look at these barriers that specifically face LGBTQ+ people and young people of colour and from ethnic minorities, and disabled people, for example, from reporting, and why some groups of young people and children are more vulnerable to these kinds of violence of harassment. And then, the kind of support, or the lack of support indeed, that we often see that isn't available to those young people.

Thank you. I think that one of my fellow Members may ask specifically about the impact on specific groups and will draw upon your expertise, both, there. I appreciate what the two of you have said in terms of the lack of data and, in a way, that's why we felt that we need this particular inquiry following the signs that we've seen, for example, from the Estyn report.

But from what you know in general about the work that you do in general, in your view, is it an increasing problem? You referred back to a few years ago to some reports that had found that this was an issue five or six years ago; of course, the world has changed, as you said. So, do you feel that it is an increasing problem, either in terms of the number of cases, or in terms of the level of severity? Are you concerned about Estyn's conclusion that sexual harassment has now become normalised, particularly in secondary schools perhaps and also in society at large?

Perhaps Kelly is better placed to report on this, because it is a more about a general picture of sexual harassment in a wider sense in our schools. But it is something that we have identified, in terms of the evidence that we've seen internally and externally in terms of how prominent sexual harassment is and the way that it has been normalised. Also, as I mentioned earlier, the way that our children and young people now can access information and material that is problematic and is unhealthy through things such as the internet and mobile phone apps that are for adults, but they are able to access themselves. But, perhaps, for the purpose of this inquiry, that's wider than the peer-on-peer element. But, I think that it all feeds in to the same issue in the end. Kelly, I don't want to put you on the spot there, but I suspect that the question is best asked to you.

Diolch, Iestyn. In terms of what we're seeing amongst young people, whether I would say that there's a sharp increase in it, I don't feel that I would be able to say 'yes' specifically. But I think that a lot of it is because it is underreported, and Estyn's report showed us that really significantly—that actually, those who do experience sexual harassment are the least likely to think that reporting it will be a helpful experience to them. Therefore, what we see are barriers to young people coming forward and disclosing what's happening to them for many reasons. Sometimes, it's around the fact that some students don't feel that, maybe, their teachers will take it seriously because it gets dismissed as, 'Oh, well, it's just young people being young people', or when we look at it from a gendered perspective, it's, 'Boys being boys' and we've normalised that kind of impact on the way that people talk to each other, or how it's just accepted by some teachers.

I'll give some evidence around that. We deliver our harmful sexual behaviours training called the traffic light tool, and when I was in a school delivering this training to some staff around it—. We do a value-based activity just for professionals to think objectively about how their values could impact on the way that they deal with disclosures and how they generally think of different topics. Around the value of 'Sexual banter amongst boys is normal and should just be left to be so', I had one teacher really argue the point that they believed that actually, sexual banter is healthy and we should be allowing it. It's the way that that is enshrined in people in society that we should just allow it, when we shouldn't; we should be addressing it, we should be unpicking it, we should be taking the time to do it. And therefore, the challenge is that if we've got teachers who portray that—. And that is not an indication that all teachers are like that across Wales, they're not; I've worked with some wonderful, wonderful teachers who really try hard to implement and put robust procedures in place. But if we still have people who will react to somebody, or dismiss it to be, 'Well, it's just normal, it's just banter', that's a huge challenge for young people. Sorry, Iestyn, I'll just finish and then I'll come to you.

What we also know from the Estyn report and from the Ofsted report in England is the scale of the problem—it's in all schools right now. So, what we need to be doing is capturing how it's happening, how it's going on, what the result of it is, and also just the severity of it, because we do see it. When I'm delivering sessions around consent to young people—obviously, we do things in a very key stage, age-appropriate, timely manner with our education resources—and particularly when I talk to year 11 around issues of consent, some of the ways that they will express themselves or things that they say can be worrying, that normalised thing, that acceptance. I also had a young person say to me, 'Well, there is no point in reporting it, it's just going to happen anyway', and that's really sad. Under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, article 19, young people have the right to feel safe, and if our young people are going to school knowing that this is going to happen and that it's normal, that's really, really damning of our society that, actually, we're not doing more to address it and to challenge it. There'll be, I imagine, other questions from the committee members about how we can tackle these things and how can we do it. I could probably talk for two hours and longer about things that could be implemented and things that could be done, but it's a huge, huge challenge. Iestyn, sorry.

Yes. No, apologies, Kelly. I was just agreeing with every word that you were saying. But also, just in terms of that banter element that you mentioned, obviously, we need to recognise and to say from the outset, neither I nor Stonewall are experts in the area of sexual harassment within schools. However, we do have knowledge over how it affects LGBTQ+ children and young people, and what Kelly said in terms of the banter element is something that a lot of LGBTQ+ people will experience.

The Estyn report notes that homophobic name-calling in corridors in schools is a norm to a lot of LGBTQ+ children and young people. Our report from 2017, the School Report, echoes that, with 90 per cent of children and young people who are LGBTQ+ having heard the term, 'That's so gay' in a derogatory manner, being expressed negatively. And with my personal hat on, I can echo that, as someone not that young now, but having memories from my school time where that was still a problem years ago, and it continues to be now. So, going back to Sioned's question earlier—sorry, the Member Sioned's question earlier—about how prevalent this is and how things are changing, I would say, from a personal, anecdotal point of view, it hasn't gone anywhere; it still continues to be an issue. But how prevalent that is is obviously something that we've discussed that is very difficult to pinpoint at the moment, given the lack of evidence. But, just to finish on a quote that's in the Estyn report, it says here:

'Every time we walk down the corridor, someone will call names at us.'

And we see the abuse that LGBTQ+ children and young people are often sexualised in disguised by homophobia, biphobia or transphobia, and it I think is problematic. So, I will, maybe, throughout the session, talk a bit more about the types of sexual harassment and abuse that children and young people who are LGBTQ+ face, because I think there are different layers that can disguise it in different forms, because of it being homophobic, biphobic and transphobic in nature as well.

Diolch, Iestyn.

Can I just—?

I know you want to come back in, but I know that there'll be a number of questions, so if you could be succinct, please.

Yes. Sorry, I was just going to say, add to it as well, obviously in terms of your question around the increase around it. I think, obviously, there's a conversation around online as well, which definitely would have added to the number of people experiencing it.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch, Sioned. Over to Buffy Williams.

Diolch, Chair, and thank you, both, for joining us this morning. Is it still this morning? Yes. I know you may have already touched on a few areas that I'll be questioning you on, so I do apologise for that, but if you could elaborate a little bit more on those areas, I'd be really grateful. What do you believe are the main causes of the increase in incidents of sexual harassment among young people? Iestyn.

Yes. I'll try to answer that question, but also acknowledging that my expertise and knowledge is specifically relating to LGBTQ+ young people and children. I think, over the years, access to information and to forms of socialising or networking has generally increased with the way that we communicate through apps and through digital means. We do have, or I have had sight of, evidence from external organisations that do note that LGBTQ+ children and young people are at a higher risk of using apps and dating apps that are targeted at over 18-year-olds, but children, young people who are not 18, and LGBTQ+ children and young people in particular, might go to those avenues to seek some sort of network or emotional support, which then opens them up to vulnerability of experiencing sexual abuse. Again, I'm aware that the remit of this, the terms of reference are, in particular, on peer-on-peer abuse. But, again, I think it's something that's an unique challenge. It obviously faces the whole population of children and young people, but in particular there seems to be evidence that suggests a higher prevalence among LGBTQ+ children and young people of accessing those kinds of forms of digital methods of communicating and socialising. So, I think I'd say that is something that we're aware of in particular. I don't know, Kelly, do you have anything to add there?

Yes, I definitely do. Thanks, Iestyn. So, I think for us, in terms of the increase around it, one of the factors is that we've got a changing society around talking about the issue. So, obviously, when we discuss the #MeToo movement, but also the setting up of the website Everyone's Invited, which—. When you look at the website and you see that there are over 50,000 submissions—well, I think about 55,000 now, even, possibly, but still—submissions from young people that started off with one person saying, 'Enough's enough, you know. Actually, this has been my experience and I'm going to share it,' and then that ethos of what Soma Sara set up was that everyone's invited to share their story, and so, actually, young people started to realise that they weren't alone and actually that they didn't have to carry this burden or carry this shame of how they had been treated, and so they felt that they were able to come forward. Again, anonymously—we haven't made them feel so comfortable that young people can come forward as individuals and put their names to it, but, either way, they were able to start disclosing it.

So, I think the fact that we are, again, like yourselves, as the committee, looking into this issue and actually showing that it's of importance—. Estyn's report into it as well—obviously, it was instructed upon them by Welsh Government, but still—. I think that's why we're seeing it, because more young people therefore probably think, 'Oh, actually, maybe something will change this time,' or, 'I will be listened to more seriously about it.'

But also I think it's because of online as well. So, I think that we're seeing a huge increase in number because of digital behaviour. The last two years we've made children and young people live a digital life, through no fault of our own as a society. The pandemic has had a huge impact on that, and I don't think we're going to see the full outcome of that, or the full stats of that, for at least a year or a couple of years as more research is undertaken.

But every young person—. Well, I say 'every', I shouldn't be so ambitious, but I would say that a high percentage of all young people in Wales have access to a digital device of some sort. So, I, as a much older older person now, when I was in school, did not have a digital device, so, therefore, I was not contactable outside of school hours unless someone rung my house or knocked my front door, whereas now young people can't escape from it, in the sense of it is there in their life all of the time. There is that peer pressure around being involved in these different behaviours, the peer pressure of the normalised behaviour, again—so, not calling out our friends, being bystanders to these things. But I hope that the reason we're seeing—well, I don't know, I think it may be that, because of reports like this and inquiries like this, more young people will come forward and share it, but, again, I still don't think that we'll see the full—. I think this is the tip of the iceberg. I think there's a lot more under the sea that we haven't yet seen about this issue.

Can I also just briefly come back on that point? There's a paper that was published last year by John Needham that I would maybe urge yourselves to take sight of, under the title 'Sending Nudes: Intent and Risk Associated with "Sexting" as Understood by Gay Adolescent Boys'. Within that study and paper, it notes that

'The average percentage of sexting in those who reported as heterosexual was 43.9% contrasted with 63% for those who identified as GBTQ.'

So, this is in particular about 14 to 18-year-old males, so that, again, chimes with what we were saying earlier about certain groups being more at risk of this type of abuse. But I think—. That's obviously, not our own evidence at Stonewall, but drawing on that paper I think further shows the gravity of the issue that we're dealing with.

And going back to what Kelly was just saying, do you think exposure to harmful and inappropriate content online, including pornography, is creating unhealthy attitudes towards relationships and sexuality, and do you think parents are taking enough of an active role in this regard?

Excellent question. So, this is something that for us as an organisation we're really heavily invested in in terms of what we're seeing around online content. So, anecdotally, in terms of what we would refer to as youth-produced sexual imagery—so, young people producing images of themselves and circulating them and them being shared—a young person once said to me, 'You can tell me about all of the risks about it, you can tell me that it's against the law until I'm 18 years old, but I'm still going to do it. It's an expected behaviour of me to do.' It's very normalised amongst young people. So, that is a huge issue in itself in terms of how we address that and provide education and support for young people on it.

In terms of pornography as well, we know that it is having a huge impact on young people. It's really hard to determine if it's harmful or not. It comes down, again, very much to that value base that some people will say, 'Pornography is a terrible thing, it's really bad. It's really, really damaging for our young people.' And, yes, there could be some elements of danger to it. What are they accessing? What age are they? How is it impacting on their life and their expectation of relationships? I spoke with a 14-year-old male at a conference where we were just there giving out information around sexual health. And he was 14, and he spoke to me and said that he was scared to engage in any form of sexual activity with a female, to which I kind of said, 'That's normal. But what makes you feel so nervous about that? What is it?', and he said he didn't feel like he could choke a girl, and I was like, 'Okay. So, what makes you think, then, that that is part of normal sexual activity?', and he did say in that moment that it was because of what he had been seeing in pornography. We do know that free-to-access pornography shows a higher rate of violence against women. It does show violence against males, and it does show violence against those who identify as LGBT as well, but, in terms of a higher rate of violence against females, that's what he was seeing and therefore thought that was normal. So, if we're not providing education—which, again, we always come back to in Brook as an organisation—if we're not providing education for our children and young people about this, it is really, really dangerous.

However, pornography could also be very healthy for some young people in terms of exploring their sexuality and exploring who they are in a 'safe' way—and I use 'safe' in parentheses. So, we know that some young people who are part of the LGBT+ community say that pornography will allow for them to safely explore their sexual orientation in that way. But it's really, really hard to manage it.

So, the British Board of Film Classification did some research in 2019 when the UK Government were considering putting a ban on all under-18s being able to access pornography. They did some research into it, and one of the issues around pornography is people understanding that it is a real issue in the sense of it's not going away, and people think, 'My child, my young person isn't accessing pornography', and, actually, in this survey by the British Board of Film Classification, they did their research with parents and children, and they asked parents, 'Do you think your child or young person has ever seen any form of pornography?' and 73 per cent of the parents said, 'No, my child would never have witnessed or looked at porn', and, when they asked their children anonymously, 53 per cent of them had said, 'Yes, I have done.' So, we're not acknowledging that pornography is actually something that our children and young people are having access to. Also, what the research showed was that, actually, by the age of 11 to 13, 51 per cent of young people had said that they had seen some form of pornography. So, in terms of trying to address these things, it's hugely, hugely important.

So, I think, just to add on to the great contribution Kelly gave on that, I've just got a couple of points about the effect on LGBTQ+ children and young people in particular, and the difference in risks that might face the LGBTQ+ children and young people within our schools.

I just wanted to start off with, I suppose, the known matter of fact that we all talk about in terms of LGBTQ+ visibility is that, over the years, LGBTQ+ visibility hasn't been at a sufficient standard within our schools and colleges and education settings, which can then further drive LGBTQ+ children and young people to find information and to view potentially risky or unhealthy materials, which Kelly was discussing, because of that. And because of the curriculum, traditionally, and schools not actually delivering safe LGBTQ+ inclusive education, that then leaves pupils and children in a position where they have to look for information in other places and that can often be at a higher risk of it being unsafe. So, that is really important to note, in terms of why LGBTQ+ inclusion is important within the new Curriculum for Wales.

It then, I suppose, takes me to an issue about sexual orientation and gender identity. I have talked a lot about this today from a perspective of those who might identify as LGBTQ+. However, it's important to note that, during the years or age that we're talking about, some young people or a lot of young people might not actually identify as LGBTQ+ because they might not have questioned their sexuality or gender identity yet, which then leaves us in a position where we know of LGBTQ+ children and young people, or those who are questioning their identity, not being able to report in fear of outing themselves, in terms of outing themselves being then known as LGBTQ+ when, actually, they might not be. This is also quite obvious in cases where we hear anecdotally of children and young people being targeted with homophobic, biphobic and transphobic language or sexual harassment, but they might not be LGBTQ+ themselves, but they then fear that if they were to report it or to ask or seek advice, that they wouldn't be able to do that because of it, potentially, then labelling them as an identity that they don't actually identify with.

And then just on the end point, that's very true, I'd say, about the relationships with parents as well. So, if a young person is targeted with sexual harassment of a nature that is, for example, a boy targeting a boy with sexual harassment or unhealthy behaviours, how a young person then might not feel able to disclose or share that information with a trusted adult, given that they either don't identify as LGBTQ+ or haven't yet labelled their identity. I think that's really quite something to note.

Just anecdotally, from my personal experience, I was targeted with unwanted touching growing up, in a high-school setting, but that was done with an intent of homophobia and bullying rather than it being sexual in nature. So, I think that that is important to note here as well. We're not always talking about unwanted sexual contact or harassment; it can be disguised in the form of homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, because of that being the driver rather than sexual attraction being the driver. But I just want to caveat what I've just said by saying that's a personal experience rather than me talking with my Stonewall hat on. But also caveating what I've just said is that it's coming from a perspective of anecdotal experiences rather than myself being an expert in the field of sexual harassment within schools.

Before we move on from what you just said then, Iestyn, on peer-on-peer sexual harassment, what do you think can and should be done to help protect particular groups of learners who are disproportionately affected?

A whole-school approach to inclusive relationships and sexuality education is key. Our children and young people deserve to be in a setting that is safe for them, no matter what their identity is. For example, if the LGBTQ+ child or young person is brought up in a situation within the home or within school that is unsafe, or where anti-LGBTQ+ language and homophobia is rife and heard, they will feel that they are unable to raise a voice or raise a concern about matters that are relating to their LGBTQ+ identity, if they are LGBTQ+ or not. So, I think a whole-school approach to inclusive education is really key in order to enable learners to feel empowered to talk about their personal experiences.

Okay, thank you for that answer. My last question, then, is: to what extent does the problem of sexual harassment between learners reflect the issue across society as a whole, in terms of unhealthy male attitudes and behaviours towards women as well as homophobia and hostility towards LGBTQ+ communities?

Shall I respond in terms of the LGBTQ+ element there? It is true to say that, internationally and globally, we are seeing an increase in anti-LGBTQ+ narratives and hate across the world, within social media and also within wider society, which can then infiltrate our traditionally safe places, such as schools and educational settings, which I think can be an enabler of such unhealthy attitudes and behaviours, such as sexual harassment, which we're talking about today. I think that is a concern, given my earlier point about needing a safe environment for LGBTQ+ children and young people to feel that they are able to talk about problems that they're facing in a safe space.

I think the wider issue is really quite a challenge as well, when we are seeing an increase in opposition to LGBTQ+ inclusive education within our schools and education settings. I would want to in particular point out here that there is an increased opposition to trans inclusion within schools, within Wales and across the globe. That in particular causes concern, given that a lot of the evidence that we see shows that trans children and young people in particular often experience at a higher rate such abuse or harassment and the sorts of behaviours that we're talking about today.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thanks, Buffy. Over to Peter Fox now.

Hello, both. Good to be with you. I just want to talk a little bit about awareness, or ask some questions about awareness and management of the problem. And I’ve got a flavour already from Kelly, I think, about some of the pressures in schools, but I just wondered whether you believe that colleges, pupil referral units and schools have a common enough understanding of what harassment is.

My one-word answer would be 'no'. I think there’s a lot more that needs to be done around people’s understanding and how it differentiates between bullying and the specific issues that come with it. We talk about school settings, pupil referral units and things as well, but we also should be including youth work settings and out of school, because this isn’t just an issue that sits within our schooling system and doesn’t exist beyond that. Actually, it’s enshrined across all parts of society. I know youth services and youth organisations do a lot of really hard, proactive work in trying to address some of these things, but, no, I think there’s a lot that needs to be done in terms of training.

I think ultimately it really comes back to it. And I feel that, particularly when we were here giving evidence before around the new relationships and sexuality education, one of the big things that we kept saying was that training, training, training needed to be implemented, money needed to be spent on these things, and it’s still the same with this issue. You’re not going to get anywhere if you’re not providing targeted, specific training for professionals to be able to recognise and deal with this issue. And also thinking about internal procedures in terms of how people are able to actually report on it. So, is there an internalised normalisation of the behaviour within the school? Is there shame or embarrassment, leading to a reluctance by people to report it? Is there a general perception that schools or pupil referral units or colleges aren’t actually going to do anything with this evidence? So, there has to be a lot of inner reflection done and guidance. Again, I know Welsh Government released guidance around peer-on-peer sexual harassment, but more needs to be done in this area. More needs to be addressed around online and how to tackle these things.

Do you think that’s part of the problem, why young people don’t come forward and talk to teachers, because they haven’t got confidence that there is that understanding?

Possibly. It’s hard to speak to every scenario, because there will be some really excellent schools that have got some really strong procedures and ways that they do the reporting. But, again, from speaking with young people, there seems to be that reluctance, 'Oh well, nothing’s going to change, why should I bother?' And also how does the school go about creating those reporting mechanisms for young people? Do they have to come and see a teacher, because for some people that would be a huge barrier? Iestyn mentioned young people who are part of the LGBT+ community, in terms of maybe publicly outing themselves when they’re not feeling ready to do so. So, how do we do anonymous routes of reporting?

And, again, I mentioned it earlier and I go back to it, where are young people’s voices in this? What would make it easier for young people to report on these things? We pride ourselves in Wales that we're a country that enshrines children’s rights into everything that we do, which is fundamentally fantastic in theory, but in practice, how are we actually doing this in a way that really supports young people, and also approaching this in a trauma-informed way with children and young people, because what they’ve experienced or what they have witnessed as a bystander can be deeply upsetting and traumatic? So, there’s a lot that needs to be done in terms of really looking at how we create monitoring services.

And also I was listening to some of the evidence earlier, from this morning, and people were talking about the differences between bullying and sexual harassment. And, if you’re not creating two separate ways, how do you know what is bullying and how do you know what’s actually being reported as sexual harassment as well? So, yes, I think there’s a bit of an overhaul that needs to happen in Wales.

Iestyn, do you want to come in?

Yes, just quickly on that. We’re aware from evidence that three out of five LGBTQ+ pupils in Wales, namely 62 per cent, say there’s no adult in the school that they can speak to about being LGBTQ+. So, that causes great concern to us. And then more widely, in terms of what Kelly was saying about training and what teachers and schools need, the change in policy and legislation with regard to relationships and sexuality education is something to be very warmly welcomed as a major step forward to undo the damage that has been caused to so many LGBTQ+ pupils over the years. But it is only one step forward, and we need to now see the Welsh Government and local authorities and schools taking proactive further steps to ensure that teachers and the profession more widely can respond to this major policy change. Anecdotally, I'm aware of children and young people, and teachers working with children and young people, who find it difficult to use the acronym LGBTQ+ alone, without going into discussions about these individual identities. And the picture changes from school to school, from authority to authority, and I think that is a cause of concern, because the significant change in policy is to be welcomed. But as we've already said, it's just one step forward, and there is a great deal of work to do to ensure that the profession has the confidence to introduce this change.

Yes. Iestyn, you talked earlier about your personal situation. I get a feeling from that—. Should this be treated as just part of the anti-bullying side of things, or should it be a separate procedure for sexual harassment?

I think I'm not in a position, maybe, to say from my expertise as to how it should be recorded, but personally I think, in hindsight, maybe looking back, I didn't recognise it as what we're talking about today in terms of sexual harassment. But given the knowledge that I got in preparing for the session today, I definitely think it does fall within that category, but my—. And, again, I say this with my personal hat on and not having checked with my colleagues about sharing this with you, but I thought it was important to share, because sometimes that can be put down—. Those kinds of experiences can be put down just to homophobic banter, whereas, as a matter of fact, looking back, that sort of behaviour is very, very unhealthy and is wrong, not just because of it being homophobic in nature, but also wrong in terms of what we're talking about today in terms of unwanted and unconsented sexual contact.

I'm conscious we're very short of time. I just want to finish with one quick, or two little quick questions, and perhaps you can be quite succinct on those. I just wondered how you feel generally organisations work together in this—police, social services, local authorities—and what more could the Welsh Government do. Do you want to come in first, Kelly?

Yes. So, I think in terms of how services join up around it, I don't feel I have the expertise to be able to say specifically because what also I do find is what I'm very fortunate to do at Brook, because I work across Wales—. I do find that, actually, across local authorities and regions that sometimes reporting and the way things are implemented are actually different between them, which can be concerning in itself, that there's no standardisation around that. But, yes, from that point around it, I think definitely there could be more joined-up working, for sure, better inter-agency working about who supports what training, what training platforms people think are very good to use. And also, what we do know from the Estyn report, actually—what it showed was that less than 10 per cent of young people mention outside services that could support and listen to you when tackling this issue. So, I think it's really, really important that more is done to that.

And I just want to very quickly, sorry, add on that in terms of understanding sexual harassment as being different to bullying, I think it's important to capture the data for both, but also to recognise that specific targeted support will be needed for those young people who recognise and say that they've experienced sexual harassment. They will need targeted intervention and support, so it is important to be able to differentiate between the two so that young people get what they need.

Yes. Iestyn, what more could the Government do?

I think there needs to be widespread understanding of what we're talking about, and how this relates and interacts with the wider issue of bullying. I think that is something that is needed, but, again, as Kelly said, I don't think I'm in a position to maybe talk about the wider picture, given that I haven't got that insight. But I think Kelly very effectively articulated my points, that I would have made as well, in terms of that collaboration. But in terms of what Welsh Government could do, I think, there needs to be a strategised intervention, in particular on LGBTQ+ inclusion, on delivery and implementation, now that we have a very robust RSE code and statutory guidance in place. I suppose now it's about taking that next step into delivery and implementation.

And put more money into it. I think that's one as well. There needs to be more funding available for it.

Thank you, both, and thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Peter. We've only got five minutes left, and I'm just going to touch now on the new curriculum. To what extent do you think the teaching of the new curriculum will make a positive change? And also, how confident are you that the teaching of RSE, in line with the statutory code, will lead to healthier attitudes held particularly by boys towards girls, but also a greater sense of inclusivity and understanding of LGBTQ+ identities? Maybe we'll start with Iestyn, if that's okay.

It is.

Thank you for that very important question. I think, to conclude the session on a more positive note, I think that we can't underestimate the importance of the new curriculum to tackle this problem that we've talked about today. We are aware that legislation, decades ago, was introduced to prevent mention of LGBTQ+ identities in our schools. But this is the perfect opportunity to undo that damage. But more than that, I think that it's a mandate for schools to be able to feel that they can be empowered to tackle this issue and to address the issues that we've talked about today.

With regard to the RSE curriculum specifically, I think, that, from my point of view, and my engagement with curriculum development across the UK with my colleagues, the Welsh Government has taken very progressive steps forward here to ensure that everyone within our education system has access to this kind of education, and I think that that is very much to be welcomed. We've already heard from Kelly about the huge challenges and increasing challenges that face our children and young people, but this is our opportunity now to ensure that they have the tools or the skills that they need to be able to find their way in the world through the education that we provide. And I very much hope that this education will align with our expectations and our hopes, and I feel very hopeful about that.

I think, from our perspective at Brook, we really welcome the introduction of the new curriculum, and we're really keen to support that and the roll-out of high-quality resources in terms of what we have available as an organisation as well. But the encouragement for the new RSE and the topics that are addressed, especially a cross-curriculum approach, is really, really positive. And there's going to be a range of opportunities to be able to address issues around healthy relationships and be able to continually embed and reinforce values around the importance of consent, and particularly through what we call the third strand, if you will—theme 3—which is around empowerment, safety, respect, which is around focusing on the impact of harmful behaviours, bullying, LGBT-based bullying, sexual violence and gender-based stuff.

But I think what's really, really fundamental is that, whilst all of this is very, very good, if we're not putting the resource into this, in terms of teacher training, in terms of how to deliver this in a safe way, in an inclusive way, in a way that is appropriate for learners, where learners can have a voice within their curriculum, within all of this—. If we're not providing this for teachers, which we're not—I speak to teachers on a regular basis, I'm in four comprehensive schools this week alone, and teachers are telling me that there isn't money being given to them for this kind of work—therefore it will fail. We need to have comprehensive bilingual resources as well around all of these subjects to be able to empower our teachers to be able to deliver this strongly and to address it as a whole-school approach. So, it's very positive.

The other thing I'd mention is that what the Estyn report shows us is that this issue is happening now. And whilst the new RSE curriculum is fantastic, it's going to be happening on a rolling basis, it's not going to be across the whole of year 7 to year 11 straight away—it is on a rolling basis. And therefore what you're going to have are generations of more young people not receiving any form of education. So, we need there to be changes so that actually this form of education happens for everybody as soon as possible as well.

And that's a huge concern that we do share as well, because you will have, ultimately, four years of a generation of children and young people still not having access to this sort of much-needed education.

And it can also be delayed by a year, obviously, because of the pandemic. So, what we know, actually, is that schools might not actually start teaching any of this in the new way until 2023. And, again, as the Estyn report shows us, it's happening now.

Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time today. You've done Stonewall Cymru and Brook Cymru very proud with the evidence you've given. A transcript will be sent to you in due course. Please check over it and, if there are any corrections that need to be made, please let the clerking team know. That brings this morning's session to an end. So, we'll now end the broadcasting.

Thank you for returning for the ninth evidence session of this inquiry. We're joined this afternoon by Professor EJ Renold from Cardiff University. There are lots of questions that we would like to ask you, Professor, but if I could begin by just asking you to briefly outline, for the benefit of people who might be viewing today, your work, the organisation that you're part of, and why it's relevant to this inquiry.

Thank you. Could you tell me if I cut out, because my internet is a little dodgy? Thanks. I am professor of childhood studies in the School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, and for over 25 years now I've been researching—[Interruption.]

We're back broadcasting again. Thank you, Professor.

Thank you. Apologies for that, everybody. I'm Professor EJ Renold, and I'm professor of childhood studies at the School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University. For over 25 years now I've been researching the many different ways in which gender and sexuality shapes children and young people's lives. My research has taken me to lots of different settings. These include nurseries, primaries, secondary schools, sometimes special schools, youth groups, residential settings and, increasingly, online spaces.

A lot of my work has focused specifically on gender and sexual harassment and violence between children and young people, so—[Inaudible.]—peer cultures in schools, online and in their communities. Over the years, I've been drawing upon research findings and working with others to directly inform policy and practice, from anti-bullying to—. And I've been co-creating resources and designing and delivering professional learning in this area, most notably with the AGENDA resource, which I think has been referred to earlier in the session. This was a resource that started out as a young people's guide to address gender-based and sexual violence in empowering and affirmative rights-based ways, and this has since developed into a practitioner resource, for later primary through to secondary schools. We also host a relationships and sexuality education resource called CRUSH, which is starting to focus on supporting teachers to prepare for the new RSE curriculum in Wales, and that's with Dr Ester McGeeney and Dr Leanne Coll.

A lot of this is really listening to children and young people to find out what's going on for them in some of the most sensitive areas of their lives, and sexual harassment clearly is one of them. I'd just like to thank everyone. It's a privilege to be inside of this space to support your inquiry on what is arguably, I think, one of the most difficult topics to gather children and young people's views on. And just a little bit of context: I also supported the design for the qualitative listening tool that Estyn used in their review, and I was also involved in training some of the Estyn inspectors alongside the NSPCC and the children's commissioner's office on how to, maybe, use research findings, but enabling them to be alerted to what could come up in the listening inquiry that they did. So, again, just a bit of wider context there on some of my work.

Fantastic. Thank you. We're very fortunate to have you today with your expertise and insights. Sioned Williams has some questions now about the scale and nature of peer-on-peer sexual harassment.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, Professor. Clearly, your experience and your insight in this field in terms of your research and expertise is very, very broad, so how much of a surprise, if at all, were Estyn's report findings regarding the scale and prevalence of peer-on-peer sexual harassment among learners? In terms of the normalisation of this behaviour, was it normalisation? Is this behaviour normalised in secondary schools? Is this a new thing, or, in your view, has this been the case for a while now?

Thank you, Sioned. In terms of the research evidence, there's over two decades of research into sexual bullying and harassment—I know those terms have been used throughout the morning and maybe we can come back to those—between children and young people within educational settings, but also beyond educational settings. For those of us working in this field, we've been trying to raise awareness of these findings across various forums and guidance, and in many inquiries—so, the Women and Equalities Committee inquiries, in two inquiries into sexual harassment in schools and also in public places, and obviously, Estyn had their inquiry. A quick response to your question is: no, we're not surprised, from what we know over the years in this area. I was writing about the normalisation of sexual harassment in my PhD over 20 years ago in primary schools, so this is not a new phenomenon, but there are things that have changed. I think other people have raised this—the intensification of this in terms of online cultures is clearly a big change in respect to the normalisation, and just the practice more widely.

But no, it wasn't a surprise, and I think as a community of researchers, we do need more research; there are gaps in research evidence, of course there are, and we need to make sure that research is up to date. For us, there's a long legacy of recommendations that come from these inquiries that we are still waiting to be acted upon, and that's not just in Wales. So, I guess that's kind of where I'm coming at it from a researcher's perspective. In terms of the messages that Estyn found, actually, Ofsted also found very similar findings—some of them were actually higher; sometimes it's the way you ask the questions. But yes, it is widespread. The overwhelming messages from research are confirmed in Estyn's own review.

Just some brief headlines, then. Verbal and non-contact sexual harassment between young people is widespread and increasingly normalised; that's also a finding of the research, Estyn's capture of that last year. It is increasingly prevalent online. One of the most contemporary and up-to-date research reports in this area is by Professor Ringrose and colleagues in University College of London; I've linked that report in my written evidence. It's not just one of the most contemporary projects in terms of the findings; they go on and have recommendations for parents, carers, schools, Governments and so on. And it's increasing in public spaces. So, we've done various research projects, and again, there's a whole load of evidence from the inquiry into public space and sexual harassment in terms of young people's experiences that we can draw upon.

In Wales, we're very unique. We have the SHRN, the Schools Health Research Network. It's a unique data set that very, very few countries have that we can draw upon. I think Kelly Harris from Brook did refer to some of that data. I think I would contact them directly if you want it up to date. They're just about to release, I think, some of those more recent figures, but it's only for secondary schools, and I know part of your question there, Sioned, was also around primary schools. There is less research in this area, mainly because of the difficulty in designing affirmative methods that allow children to talk about some of the most sensitive experiences at that age. A lot of ethnographic research often captures this; this isn't survey data, it's being with children over a period of time allows you to see what's happening in those classrooms and in playgrounds and so on, and building that trust that they can talk to you about maybe what's happening. I know from my own research back in 2013—again, this was research with the NSPCC and actually commissioned for the cross-party group on sexualisation, sexualities and equalities—that it's not confined to secondary schools. This does happen in the everyday lives of pre-teen children. We're talking slightly older, maybe year 4, 5 and 6. I think that was also mentioned this morning by various sectors as well—that we really need to take stock of that.

Thank you. Very useful. One of the questions that we've been asking ourselves as a committee was that element of primary schools. So, clearly, from what you're told us, it's completely right that we're asking those questions regarding that sector. You've mentioned generally the different forms, or the most common forms of sexual harassment, but roughly, according to your information, what proportion of these cases would you estimate meet the threshold for constituting a criminal offence?

Are you referring to primary schools?

All the cases that you're aware of, including secondary.

You've frozen, which could suggest I've frozen.

Did you hear the—? Can you hear me?

Sorry, you froze, and I realised I was talking to—. I think we're back on now. Sorry.

Do you want me to ask the question again? You've provided us with some examples there regarding some of the most common forms of sexual harassment between learners, but what proportion of those cases—and I would think that we're talking about all the educational settings—do you estimate meet the threshold for constituting a criminal offence?

We don't have the data on primary schools in response to that. In secondary schools—. My research isn't that threshold, that's not what we look at; we look at the everyday normalised often verbal abuse, if you like, between children and young people. But, in terms of threshold, I don't know. I haven't got that data set to hand, so I wouldn't be able to give you. I can certainly find out. The SHRN data would probably be the data I would go to for that, and also work with the criminology team to see what data sets they have there. Welsh Women's Aid would have more of the statistics on this, which might be worth taking a look that. Usually, it's quite low, but, again, there are cases. The Welsh Government should have these data sets, but we're talking hundreds, if you like; these aren't in the thousands and thousands when you're talking about sexual assault and rape, if that's what you're referring to in terms of criminal offences. But I haven't got that data set to mind, because I was actually looking at sexual harassment for this, not the research more widely.

Thank you. In your paper, you used a term that I wasn't completely clear regarding its meaning. Can you explain what you meant by saying increasingly that modern romantic and/or sexual relationships between young people now are no longer a process of consent between two individuals, but part of a process of consent as a social process? Could you throw a little bit of light on that for us?

Sure. Thanks, Sioned. In relation to that, it's actually more an understanding of consent cultures within children's peer cultures and relationship cultures. So, we're looking at peer pressure to couple up as boyfriend and girlfriend, going out with someone you don't want to go out with because your friends think it's a good idea, somebody saying, 'You're now my boyfriend', or someone telling someone else that they're going out with someone else, and they haven't even consented to any of it at all. So, I guess, it's a pedagogic thing, really—it's an intervention finding, if you like. We need to understand that, sometimes, when we explore consent cultures, we import, sometimes, adult prevention programmes inside of something, which often look at the victim/perpetrator or consent between two individuals in a relationship. And when you're looking at that in itself, of course you've got to look at the wider context and norms that may be part of that, but when you're looking at children's relationship cultures, they're in friendship groups and peer groups; they're very rarely, when they're younger, on their own on a date. It's happening in groups. So, we've got episodes of forced kissing in playgrounds, with crowds shouting around, 'Kiss, kiss, kiss'.

These are collective consent cultures that we have to recognise and then respond to. So, our interventions might look different when we understand the wider peer group dynamics and then all the kind of wider social and cultural norms feeding in about why kids are navigating these pressures to be particular ways in terms of gender, or having a girlfriend because it enhances a particular version of masculinity—so, really understanding how these things work. So, yes, that's kind of where I was going with that, but it was quite shorthand in the report because I was trying to stick to your word count, but I've got a lot more to say, and hopefully that sheds a bit of light on what I mean by 'collective consent cultures'.

Certainly. And, as the mother of a daughter, I know exactly what that means now, because she has reported back to me regarding those types of cases. So, thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Thanks so much. We're going to move on now to Laura Jones.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you for coming in. Your evidence is invaluable, actually, and it's really interesting, what you've said so far. What do you believe are the main causes of the increase in incidents of peer-on-peer sexual harassment? Also, obviously, some of the things you've just highlighted have been around a while—you know, when I was in school, I identify with some of the things you were talking about just now. But what's your opinion, why do you believe—? What are the causes of the range of incidents and different sorts of incidents and the increase in that? I would be interested to find out. And what wider societal factors do you think there are at play here? Obviously, it's a societal issue. I'd just be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

Thanks, Laura. I think just listening to all the morning's presentations in response to this, everyone's pointed out the bigger picture that we have to wake up to, and that's really, really important. And I think part of that bigger picture is also part of the way in which now these things are beginning to surface. I think they've always been there, and I know Kelly talked about this tip of the iceberg. I think they're enduring, but things are changing. I think the online aspect, which you've all picked up on in your questions, is certainly something that we have to take note of. These are some of the much higher figures, actually, and this does mean that, again, young people are crossing thresholds—continents, as well—in terms of what's around in terms of what's available for them to access and what's coming at them as well. And that's clearly something that everyone has picked up on.

I know, with Professor Ringrose's report and colleagues in University College London, they've got figures of 75 per cent of girls receiving unwanted pictures of male genitals from unknown men and unknown boys and known boys. And, then in terms of reporting, 16 per cent report [Inaudible.] platform, 5 per cent report to parents, but only 2 per cent report to schools. So, those figures of reporting are a lot lower, it seems, in terms of image-based sexual harassment.

I think you're right—I think a lot of people were just dealing with the evidence we can see of what's been reported; I'm sure, as we all know, there's a lot more that hasn't been reported that we're dealing with. To what extent do you think that the increase has been driven by what children are accessing online—inappropriate images, pornography, that sort of thing? Do you think that that's been exacerbated by the lockdown and the amount of time spent on computers? And, do you think that parents could have had more of a role, with more awareness and support for them? And my last question, but it's linked so I'll ask it now, is whether there is a body of evidence that's been done on home-schooled children, because that's something that's often overlooked, and what support there is for them. Thanks.

Very quickly in response to that last one, I don't know, and that's worth looking into. I don't think there is much at all, but I wouldn't want to say 'no' without doing a proper search. So, I don't know with the home-schooling one, but we absolutely do need to look into that.

In terms of why this is going on, the impact, the causes and some of the things you've mentioned as to online, one of the things I do want to point out, which I haven't heard, or heard a little bit of this morning, is, you know, young people are beginning to speak out about these experiences and then using social media to do so, and then schools as well. So, I think there is a culture now where there's an increasing vocabulary that young people have access to, to name what's happening to them, and not just to name what's happening as in the type, like upskirting or gaslighting or cyber flashing, which now is part of the discourse, but, actually, they're finding ways of describing the conducive culture that allows these experiences of sexual harassment to thrive. So, I've met children and young people who are talking about rape culture. They're using language that understands the ways in which this is happening, and this is the learning they're doing online. So, I'm absolutely aware of online in terms of its negativity, but I'm also just seeing young people actually finding space—[Inaudible.]—learning is going; it's not necessarily happening in schools so much, but it's certainly happening in those other online spaces.

And then, again, there are the collective movements as well. People have mentioned #MeToo and Everyone's Invited, but the flip side to that is other movements are creating very complex cultures of hate and discrimination. So, whilst you're seeing people navigating this ever-changing world, there are lots of affirmative, positive spaces to learn, to speak out, to get support, but, absolutely, the flip side to that is the increase in online hate. And this is the context, which I think we can work with, and particularly in Wales, because there's so much happening here that has such potential to engage with the wider culture as well as deal, if you like, with the ways in which young people are navigating this online. So, I'd situate pornography in all of that, if that helps, but, Kelly's response to pornography, I couldn't add to that; it was a very robust response, and that's how I would respond as well—if you need to save time a little bit.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Laura. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for joining us this afternoon. How is peer-on-peer sexual harassment affecting particular groups of learners, for example girls and LGBTQ+ pupils, and what can and should be done to help protect particular groups of learners who are disproportionately affected?

Thanks, Buffy. I maybe have talked a little bit about this already, but in terms of who's most impacted, if you like, if you're looking at the experience and if you want to choose the language of 'victim', the victims of these experiences are increasingly girls, gender and sexual nonconforming young people, and LGBTQ+ young people. And then, what's missing, I think, from a lot of the data is the intersectional analysis on that—so, how does social class, ethnicity, race et cetera play into girl and gender? So, sometimes that's missing. It was missing from the Estyn research—[Inaudible.]—we need to look at carefully, but those are the key groups who are most impacted in terms of the victim, if you like, of these experiences. I've forgotten the rest of the question, sorry, Buffy.

And what can be done to help protect those particular groups of learners?

In my written evidence—. I don't know if we're going to go on in terms of interventions, but it's really to think this through much more widely. We need to understand who's most affected, but I think, whilst we do need maybe targeted programmes and support for those most impacted—and that does have to be that wraparound support, and it's not up to schools alone to do that—we need to think much more widely about this. Everybody's affected. When you're talking to boys and young men, when you're with them on their own and you create a safe space, and they're telling you that they don't actually want to do this, that they feel pressured to do these things, everybody's affected in that sense. So, coercion and control from society is making some boys and young men do this as much as anything else. So, I think it's really understanding and moving away, if you like, from some of the victim-blaming and shaming approaches that, reactively, sometimes respond to this. I think we are, in Wales, much more ahead in terms of those affirmative, rights-based approaches, which don't take that victim-blaming, shame-blame pedagogy approach.

But we do need to think about whole-school interventions, and I think a lot of the morning's presentations have talked about 'whole school' and what that means. What that means is it's not just up to the school; it's communitywide, and it has to come from the top. We have the VAWDASV Act. I remember being part of the early campaigns. I'd like to see a lot more of that around this area, and particularly around RSE. I remember being part of a programme, because I'm on the VAWDASV marketing and communications team, and they developed a campaign called #This is me, and it was actually addressing and advancing gender equalities with children and young people. This is the way in to much of this work. Gender norms are such a huge part of how these kinds of incidents, if you like, of sexual harassment happen. I think the interventions are top down, they're societywide and they're whole school, which means working with external providers as well. This is a big job of work. But we actually have the strategies and the systems in place to do this in Wales, but we're on the potential of that, if you like; we're not there yet, and there's lots and lots to do. I can go into—[Inaudible.]—of ideas in my report. Does that help a little bit and get us started on that, Buffy?

Thank you. Following on from that, then, to what extent does the problem of sexual harassment between learners reflect the issue across society as a whole in terms of unhealthy male attitudes and behaviours towards women, as well as homophobia and hostilities towards the LGBTQ+ communities?

I got the rest of it; I didn't get the first bit of the question.

You're dropping in and out—I wondered if it was my internet, but I think it might be yours. I'll ask the question again: to what extent does the problem of sexual harassment between learners reflect the issue across society as a whole, in terms of unhealthy male attitudes and behaviours towards women, as well as homophobia and hostilities towards LGBTQ+ communities?

That's kind of where I was going in the last response. This is where we're at, and these things are societywide. Talking about the increasing surge, if you like, of online hate in relation to misogynistic attitudes, like you say, towards girls and women, I don't know if you're familiar with the term 'heterosexist banter'—those kinds of assumptions around heterosexuality being the normal sexuality. All of those gender and sexual norms play a part in this, and it is societywide, but the flip side to that is there are lots of avenues where young people are exploring this. So, you've got this society and worldwide view of expanding and contracting gender and sexualities, and that's creating a lot of tension and struggle for many of us, and particularly for young people who are finding their way in the world. I think it's really difficult for them, and so part of this is understanding the wider conducive culture, for sure, and making sure interventions are there and that's how they're focused, and that's where the whole-school approach across curricula in Wales, which isn't going on in many other countries that I know of, is absolutely spot on to be able to do this work in the curriculum, which is very different. This is not just focusing on that more classic PSE approach, if you like, to individual behaviours, which we do need as well, but that kind of wider learning we've got in Wales now from three to 16. It's quite incredible, but we're in the very early stages of that, and this is happening now, as everyone's pointing out, and we need to act now too.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Over to Peter, but I'm also conscious of time. E.J., do you mind just staying with us for another five minutes? I know you have to be away by 1.30 p.m., but if we could just stretch it to 1.35 p.m., that would be great. Peter.

Hello, Professor Renold, and thanks ever so much for your time. Obviously, you've been following the discussions today, so you'll know the theme of where we're coming from. I just really wanted to understand if you believed there was a consistent understanding about sexual harassment across the various learning establishments—pupil referral units, schools, colleges—and is that inconsistency, if it's there, contributing to why young people don't come forward and raise these issues?

Yes and no—a quick answer. First of all, we don't know. There is no evidence—no-one's done a survey of all the sectors' definitions and understandings of sexual harassment. So, everyone's bringing in their perspective, and my perspective from the professional learning we do in primary, secondary and special schools is that they look to us when we're teaching, they look to us for, 'What is the definition of this? How might we need to explore this?' So, there isn't a consistent and coherent approach, and I think one of the biggest barriers in schools is understanding the difference between bullying and harassment. They're often used interchangeably. I've got my own view, as many others have, about the damage that the bullying discourse has done to enable us not to actually look at the wider culture. It comes from a particular version of developmental psychology; it's quite individualising; it doesn't have to be, but it can be used in a way that's actually more damaging, whereas harassment really opens it up and actually makes you sit up and look at society. Your approach then is different.

So, I'm going off track a bit, but I think, for me, it's the phenomenon we have to focus on here. So, no, I don't think there is a consistent understanding of what harassment is and we do need to make sure we are very clear. There are definitions, and Welsh Government have them in the guidance—they're there—but whether everyone kind of understands or knows where to look and knows what that actually means in practice is another thing.

The reporting: I was very mindful of listening to the morning presentations around, I think, one of the headteachers talking about the reporting processes and how things get missed if they're not categorised correctly. That's really important. If you look at the surveys, it's showing you the phenomena. They look at the phenomena, not, 'Young people, are you bullied?' They don't necessarily use the concepts of bullying and harassment. I mean, even in your own survey, asking young people to respond, I had a quick look, and you used the language that young people tend not to use to know that they're experiencing that. You have to actually go to, 'Did this happen?', if you want to do it in that way. 'Has someone looked at you?' Or you go for very specific things. That, I think, is where we need to hold on to when we're looking at reporting, if you like, in this area. I've forgotten the second half of your question.

I think we're all on a big learning journey with this. You've talked a couple of times about the relationship between bullying and this issue. How does the issue of sexual harassment relate to the wider problem of bullying, and should it be treated separately or part of an anti-bullying measure or procedure?

I think we need some clear guidance, a one-pager from Welsh Government, just saying what the difference is and do we need it. When I was chairing the SRE expert panel in 2017, one of the remits of the panel was to actually look again at bullying, and there was some consensus there around, 'Actually, that's not the most helpful concept.' Teachers actually didn't know what bullying was. They could categorise it, but then it didn't move from there. So, I think we have to think, 'What use are these concepts, actually? What are they actually doing in practice?' We've had anti-bullying programmes for years and years and years, and nothing huge is changing there, and I think that's because although we might be able to categorise phenomena and understand them, and that's really important—don't get me wrong, that's really important—but how then do we move from there? As people said, what do you do with the data? How does that data then inform your intervention? That's the shift; that's where we should be investing all our time, resources and energy. What do we do when we have this data? Because it can look very, very different when you understand—[Inaudible.] And that's why I'm a qualitative researcher; I try to understand how these things are happening and who to and so on. And young people are very much part of the solution to this. When you work with them and you find out from them maybe what might be useful and beneficial, what's a safe space in a school, why might they not report, schools can actually then start to create a culture and environment where they feel safe enough to talk about these things or even to report them.

Yes. Well, thank you for that. I'll be very quick with my last question. With your experience and what you're seeing, how do you believe organisations are working together and what advice could the Welsh Government give to them or actually offer for this whole situation?

I mean, there are so many ways forward to work on this, and I think we have to start with what's possible, what our strengths are in Wales, what strategies are already in place. I think I would avoid having another isolated programme, a piece of guidance that lands nowhere. We need to embed this. So, for me, the new RSE for Wales is absolutely the most conducive place to do this work. It's a whole-school approach; that's a fundamental principle. It's affirmative, it talks about positive prevention and change. That gets you thinking about not going in there through risk, but going in there through rights and empowering ways of learning in how to do this. The curriculum, cross-curricular, that's not going on in other places. You can do some amazing work through history. When you go through history, young people then don't feel the burden of, 'Oh, it's just me. I'm to blame.' You say, 'Look, this has got a long history; it's not—[Inaudible.]' You have to find ways of enabling young people and teachers to step into the space to do this work, which makes them feel confident and safe to do so. But we have to do this together. So, multi-agency working is key. A whole-school approach, that is part of it. External providers, they need resourcing. As the organisations have said, this needs investment and we are looking for professional learning. I'm still waiting on the recommendation, from our panel from 2017, of a robust professional learning framework that enables us to teach schools and third sector external providers to do this work well, and there's—[Inaudible.]—doing this work well—[Inaudible.]

Thank you for—

[Inaudible.] Sorry. Hang on.

I think we're frozen, are we? Thank you, Professor Renold—

I think the internet's stopped working.

Thank you, Peter. Professor, I'm afraid we're out of time. I did have a few questions regarding the new curriculum, and specifically RSE, but we'll follow this up with written questions for you to answer, if that's okay. Thanks again for joining us this afternoon. A transcript will be sent to you in due course. Please check it over and correct it if there are any mistakes. Thanks very much, and we can end broadcasting now.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, and thanks for joining us for the tenth evidence session of this inquiry. I'd like to welcome this session's witnesses, if I may: Kerry-Jane Packman, executive director of programmes, membership and charitable services, Parentkind; and also Ceri Reed, director of Parents Voices in Wales. We've got a lot of questions that we'd like to ask you today. I'll begin by just inviting you to briefly outline and explain your work, and the extent to which peer-on-peer sexual harassment has featured in your discussions with stakeholders. Perhaps if I begin with Kerry-Jane.

Thank you. Thank you very much for inviting Parentkind today for us to share some of our research that we do with parents. At Parentkind we believe passionately in the link between home and school, and how, when you get that link right, children flourish. It can make a huge difference not just to children, but families and their communities as well.

First and foremost, Parentkind is the largest network of PTAs across England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and PTAs are parent run, and we have around 13,000 members. That enables us to do our charitable activities as well, as an organisation, where we represent parent voice in education. We do that through a range of different research methods, from an annual parent survey to regular polls where we ask parents their opinions on that. So, one of the ways we've done that, with peer-to-peer harassment, is we have been asking parents around general mental health and well-being for the last seven years in our annual parents survey, and also more recently where we were part of the Ofsted investigation as well, so we've done a lot of work around peer-to-peer harassment and what parents feel about that.

Thank you, and Ceri.

Thank you for inviting Parents Voices in Wales here today, we really appreciate it. We are a grass-roots, Wales-based organisation who are parents of learners—children and young people—across the age spectrum with neurodiverse conditions and mental health conditions. And of course, with the association of additional learning needs, it correlates to the whole-school approach to mental health issues in the ALN code, the NEST framework in Wales, the 'no wrong door' for vulnerable children, and we are involved in lots of aspects of children's lives, but predominantly we're looking at inclusion, prevention in terms of mental health and the whole-school approach.

Excellent. Thanks for that. I'm going to invite Sioned Williams now to ask some questions.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, both. I just want to ask a general question, really, regarding your understanding of the scale of peer-on-peer sexual harassment and the nature of that harassment. I just wanted to ask how concerned are parents and carers about this issue, in terms of schools, colleges and pupil referral units, across the age range. What is your understanding of the scale and nature of the problem in general?

Should I go first, Kerry-Jane?

That would be lovely.

Our understanding is what has previously been said in the committee today, that there is a normalising of inappropriate behaviours. I think that is obviously a concern. We have seen a rise in misogynistic attitudes, haven't we, across the UK, and that does filter down through social media and through to our children. We are aware that our additional needs learners are more at risk, as well as the LGBTQ+ communities, of exploitation, harassment, bullying. Because of their difficulty with their understanding of social rules, they possibly have a poor understanding of what is appropriate touch, whether that means that they interact or they instigate a physical contact or whether that is put onto them, and having that ability to recognise what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate.

Also there are issues that we are aware of in that learners don't report it to the school, and parents will maybe not realise that that is an issue to be reported to schools. That accessibility is not transparent on how to report incidents. So, parents may go to the police, and the police may then talk to the parents at home. They will contact the school, but they may then—this is what we have been told—in all good faith, educate the victim on online security, which is an aspect and a facet of the problem, but we're not looking at the root cause. So, it's about education, whole-school education, and the families. We've had a lot of discussion today about parent awareness. I don't think parents are aware of the behaviour of their children with regard to peer-on-peer sexual harassment; I think that is an issue that we need to address. We can only address this across the system, we can only address this with a whole-school approach, including our school communities, but also we need to be looking at using the regional partnership boards and the 'no wrong door' approach in referring, through that single access point, those vulnerable learners who are at risk so that they have holistic support.

So, we are aware. We're not aware of everything that goes on, because ALN learners may not report it. We actually represent the typical, as you would say, missing middle learners, as described in the 'Mind over matter' report, children who may be sub-threshold for diagnosis and aren't getting support and are vulnerable. They're not on that radar, so their needs are not being identified as well as learners who will be diagnosed. They're predominantly in mainstream, but we do have some parents whose children have a learning disability, and of course that, in itself, brings a whole set of different worries.

Thank you, Ceri. For us, looking at the results of our annual parent survey, we are concerned around peer-on-peer harassment, and that isn't a new thing—this is something for the last seven years that's come up. We've always reported that parents have issues within mental health and well-being, especially around exam and homework stress, but issues like bullying, online abuse and sexual harassment are a concern for a large amount of parents, and increasing. In our latest survey in 2021, parents told us that bullying and issues related to social media were a concern for 48 per cent of parents, and sexual harassment was a concern for 32 per cent of parents. But, we must recognise that these issues are interlinked and that sexual harassment can also be a form of bullying, and often takes place, with terrible impact, through social media.

I think what is increasingly worrying for us is if we move from concern to actual experience. The first set of numbers was how many parents were concerned about it; if you were moving to actual experience, 9 per cent of parents said that their child had experienced sexual harassment. That's almost one in 10, without considering that many victims of the harassment also reported that they wouldn't go as far, we know from other research, as telling a teacher or a parent. So, that is what parents know about. There is also an issue around poverty and disadvantage. Our annual parent survey also found that while 9 per cent of parents said their child had experienced sexual harassment, this rose to 23 per cent of children who were eligible for free school meals. There is a poverty element to this, with poorer children being at greater risk.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch, Sioned. Laura Jones.

Thank you, Chair. I'd just like to ask you ladies what you believe the main causes of the increase of incidents of sexual harassment among children and young people are. To what extent do you think that's perhaps driven by what they're seeing online—inappropriate content, pornography, that sort of thing? Do you think that that's been exacerbated by the pandemic, given the amount of time children spent online? Thank you.

I would say absolutely this has been exacerbated post COVID. We've seen an increase in school permanent exclusions across Wales, up from 80 to 89 this year. That is a concern, and some of those exclusions have been peer-to-peer sexual harassment. We also know that 70 per cent of school exclusions are additional needs related, so those learners will have learning differences. So, again, we're looking at possibly the same learners who are perpetrators as they are victims, and I think that's something that needs to be explored.

We know that additional needs learners struggle to learn online because of working parents, and they didn't have that classroom support, and we know that they were probably online far more, probably seeing inappropriate material. As you say, there's not enough research there to measure that, and it's very nuanced. I would say that, from our group, we have asked them about what types of sexual harassment the children have reported to the parents, and the verbal sexual harassment, including LGBTQ, has been the predominant one, and mostly female reports, but not exclusively female, and that children have had sexual images sent to them, bearing in mind that, predominantly, our group are additional needs learners in mainstream schools.

The third item, being physically touched, was not so widely reported as the online, but parents are seeing sexual images sent directly to the children, where they may be perceived as vulnerable. So, again, this probably, as you say, is—as Kelly Harris from Brook has said earlier today—much more prolific than we realise. But I would definitely say lockdown exacerbated, and, yes, social media has a part to play.

I would agree with that. Technology has a huge role to play with this, and obviously children were so much more on social media during lockdown, because it was part of what they had to do on an everyday basis, being online. We've had stories of how children are now struggling within school, because they're used to having their phone in front of them, doing their classes online and having their phone in front of them, while they're chatting to friends, and the abuse is still coming through on that phone while they're doing their classes, which wouldn't normally happen in a classroom environment, because your phone will be in your bag or you wouldn't be seen using it.

We've worked, over a period of years, to understand the role that technology plays, both in education and the lives of young people more widely. Data that we've got from 2018 and 2020 said the mean age for children to experience the pressure of constantly engaging on social media, according to parents, is 11. I was quite shocked by that, because at 11, to me, you are still a young child, and to have that pressure, that social media going on constantly—. And 48 per cent of parents, at that time, said that they were concerned about this pressure.

I think what is interesting is that we did some work around COVID around what access children had to devices in order to do their learning—that was to do with COVID-19—and 98 per cent of parents said their children had access to a digital device with internet connection. So, if you think, that pressure—. I found it hard enough to go to school and be in the playground, let alone that following me home and being in my bedroom alongside that. It's like having a whole other community that is surrounding children. But social media is a reflection of society more widely, and we must accept the fact that if peer-on-peer sexual harassment is happening, it is happening on social media too. And, what's more, with younger people feeling the pressure to engage with social media platforms, and with incredibly wide access to these devices, we must consider that sexual harassment is likely to feel more constant and closer to home as a result of that technology.

Thank you for that. What role do you think that parents—? I'd just like to say, as a parent of a just 12-year-old, I know exactly what you mean; I am one of those concerned parents. What role do you think parents and carers can play, or should play, in ensuring their child is not accessing harmful online content, like pornography or those images we don't want them to see, which may lead them to either being a perpetrator or victim of sexual harassment? From being in the PTA myself over the years, I know that they play a great role, but there is a massive difference between schools and their effectiveness to help in this situation. I know that you at Parentkind do fantastic work on this. With my own experience in lockdown and all the social media to keep on top of, with TikTok and this that and the other, and I was working all the time, I found it really stressful to keep on top of how to control it or how to help my son be protected. I'm sure others feel the same. So, the awareness, the support and what role do you think they have to play. Thanks.

Parents have a role to play, because it's their children, but I think first and foremost, parents need education on how social media works. Because my niece and nephew are constantly showing me different things that happen and different platforms that you can go on, and I think it's about providing that education, first and foremost, for parents, that they can go in and understand how this works, what do they need to understand, is there guidance on the age that you should be on Facebook, or the age that you should be on Twitter. because I'm not sure that parents are fully aware of all of these restrictions that are there, because all they're hearing is, 'Well, my so and so is on Facebook, so why can't I be on Facebook?' So, first and foremost, it's around providing that platform that parents can choose to be educated around that.

I think there is also—. Schools can play a really big part in that with helping parents and getting them to understand what social media policies there are within schools. So, it really is about the home and the school working together within that. But I believe there's an also an element of a targeted campaign within Wales in order to really help parents understand not just how it affects you in terms of the harassment and all of those elements, but what they can do in order to help, because different parents will have different experiences of how that goes. And I think it would also help, then, young people in knowing that it's okay to speak out, and it's okay to talk to someone about this. This is not normal, and my fear is with young people that sometimes it is perceived as, 'It just happens, it's normal', and I think that's the biggest message to get across in order to help parents help their children.

Thank you very much. I don't know if—. Ceri, just quickly.

Yes, I just wanted to say that parents just need to be aware of what constraints can be made. For example, broadband providers, some of them do have restrictions that you can use, and also parents need to have an awareness of, for example, hashtags on certain social media platforms, and you can block certain hashtags that can allow—. It's been widely renowned for mental health and suicide prevention, the measures with broadband and restrictions on those, and it's just getting that message out about what's already there and then what do we need to do to build on top of that.

I absolutely agree with what Kerry-Jane said about the schools having a role in this; this is going to be fundamental. In order for that to happen, we need to, though, build our communities and move away from that 'them and us' that we sometimes see through services and education, and move to more community-minded, relational approaches in order that those barriers are brought down so that we can have that dialogue, because until we do that, there's always going to be a perceived element of blame for parents. And actually, we aren't that IT—especially my generation—we're not IT familiar, au fait. So, yes, absolutely agree with the training aspects.

Thank you, Chair. Thank you. Thank you, ladies.

Thank you, Laura. I'm really conscious of time; we don't have long and we have three sets of questions to come. So, I'd be very grateful if we could have some succinct responses and questions. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for joining us this afternoon. How is peer-on-peer sexual harassment affecting particular groups of learners, for example, girls and LGBTQ+ pupils, and what can and should be done to help protect particular groups of learners who are disproportionately affected?

I personally believe that we should be having, as I say, more relational approaches in schools so that we can open up that dialogue with additional needs learners, particularly, and LGBTQ+. With that extra layer, carrying that heavier load that they do compared to neurotypical learners, or what we would call non-vulnerable learners, they're more at risk of school absence, so, if they're not in school and they're being targeted online for sexual harassment, what support strategies have schools got in place to make a dialogue or make disclosures accessible for that learner, especially if they aren't disclosing to their parents that they are witnessing these things online? So, again, that's another barrier. I think that the learners themselves are socially vulnerable. I think that's picked up widely in schools, from what we're being reported, and some of them don't have the confidence or the emotional literacy to express to key staff how they feel. They're not sure whether that was banter—a word that I heard earlier on in the sessions—or whether that is inappropriate, and how do they feel. We know that additional need learners struggle to express their emotions. So, again, we just need to make sure of those relationships, those key relationships, so schools are safe and trusted environments where that dialogue is safe to take place.

We've looked at diversity and inclusion within the schools, working with Pearson and particularly within the curriculum, and I just want to highlight to you a couple of things that come out of that. Interestingly, 70 per cent of parents said that their child's school was inclusive, but when we dug down a little bit into that, 20 per cent of parents said that they didn't feel confident in discussing LGBT+ or non-binary definitions with their children. So, those learners, if their parents are struggling, if there is 20 per cent of parents that are struggling in talking to their children around that, how are their children going to talk to their parents as well? So, I think there is still a lot of work to do in order to make that standard language comfortable, in order to talk around, and then that will make it easier for learners to come forward and for parents to have those conversations.

Could I just add into that, Kerry? I agree that we have to also use the programmes that are available and the models that are available to us at the moment and build on that, rather than try and bring something out of the hat that's new and, with the whole-school approach and school-based programmes, this is an opportunity. I wrote to Welsh Government on behalf of our parent group asking for an open access for additional need learners and those looked-after children and young people and those who have experienced trauma—open access to school-based interventions—because they're having prescriptive interventions at the moment, say, for example, three or four weeks then discharged, and then they're coming back around again because the early discharge hasn't really done what it was meant to do. But that's an opportunity now for those learners who are most at risk of sexual harassment to have a relationship with somebody, one to one, where they can disclose. So, we really need to be looking at making that accessible now on the model that we already have.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Buffy. And Peter—Peter Fox.

Yes, thank you. It's great listening to you both, so thanks for your time. Just one quick question, really: to what extent do you believe schools, colleges and pupil referral units are effectively dealing with incidents of sexual harassment between their learners?

That's a tough question. I would—. It depends on the school and the college and what their approach is. However, I do believe that any school can improve on that, and there is a better way of doing it and understanding that. So, a key takeaway would be that there has to be—. I think it's what we touched on earlier, that, in every setting, in every school setting, there has to be a closer relationship between the home and the school in order to deal with such peer-on-peer harassment, and then it can be identified and tackled successfully together. One way of doing that is that Parentkind has a blueprint for a parent-friendly school, which is very much a whole-school approach to bringing parents into the school environment, and that's based around five key drivers. It doesn't come from—. We have consulted with schools and teachers, but actually this comes from a parent perspective of how we break down the barriers for parents to be part of the school, because the three areas why parents don't become involved in their child's education are, first and foremost, fear, because they've had a bad experience themselves; secondly, no-one's ever asked them; and thirdly, they don't know how. So, our blueprint for parent-friendly schools enables schools and colleges to break down those barriers where you can have that consultation with parents and they can work together in order to tackle such issues.

Kerry, anything to add?

Yes. I would say that embedding the Children's Commissioner for Wales's 'The Right Way' approach into schools would be giving a voice to children and young people in order to use that as a springboard to make interventions. Those co-productions of pathways and resources, this is the way we're going now, isn't it? This is an opportunity to have our school communities based on that NEST model of nurturing, empowered, safe and trusted, co-production at school level, having parents involved in that process. It's all very well I think schools assuming what families need, but we need to be asking them, 'What do you want from us? Let's take this forward together and develop something.'

Yes. Thank you, both. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Peter. I'm conscious we're out of time now, and I was just going to ask a few questions regarding the new curriculum and RSE, but we can actually submit them in writing, if that's okay with yourselves. Excellent.

That will be perfect.

Thank you. I would have loved to have carved out a little bit more time, because what you had to share with us was intriguing and incredibly valuable. So, thanks for your time today.

Thank you for having me.

Not at all. A transcript will be sent to you very soon. Please check over it. If there are any corrections to be made, let us know.

Thanks very much.

And we can end broadcasting now. Thank you.

Thank you.

This is the eleventh evidence session of this inquiry, and I'm delighted to welcome our guests and experts: Lowri Jones, who is director at the Urdd residential centre; Sally Thomas, UK girls' rights policy and advocacy manager at Plan International UK; and Siobhan Parry, who is head of young people's services at Platfform. We've got a good number of questions that we'd like to ask this afternoon, and I'll begin by just inviting you to very briefly explain yours and your organisation's work and the nature of your involvement with young people, perhaps beginning with Lowri.

Hi. Thank you. So, my name's Lowri Jones. I'm the director here at Llangrannog Urdd centre. We welcome over 25,000 children annually, mostly through residential trips through their schools, through the education system, but we also do our own gwersyll haf, which is like a summer camp, and also provide family holidays for a vast number of different organisations and charities throughout Wales. So, it's operational 52 weeks of the year normally. Obviously, we get the Christmas week off, but mostly it's operational, and that's the same for the other residential centres the Urdd have across Wales.

Thank you. And Sally.

I'm the UK girls' rights policy and advocacy manager for Plan International. We're a global children's charity and we work to advance children's rights and gender equality for girls. In the UK, we do a range or programmes, research and advocacy work with girls, and, in Wales in particular, we run a programme called the Champions of Wales, which involves working with around 400 young people aged 12 to 25. And so, yes, it's great to be here and to be able to share our knowledge of working with girls on this important issue.

Diolch. Thank you. And Siobhan.

Hello. My name's Siobhan, and I'm head of service for children, young people and families at Platfform. Platfform is a mental health and social change charity, and we work with people who are experiencing challenges with their mental health and well-being. A lot of the work that we do is with children, young people and families. It's focused around well-being, coaching and individual support for young people. We also run well-being programmes and groups, and a lot of that happens in schools and also in the community as well. Our focus, really, is helping young people understand what's happening around them and how that can affect their well-being, and also being able to support them with strategies for their well-being that they can implement, and supporting families and parents to also adopt whole-family well-being approaches, really. So, I'm really pleased to be here. Thank you.

Thank you. I'll move on now to invite Laura Jones to ask some questions. Laura.

What do you believe are the main causes of the increase in incidents of sexual harassment among young people, please?

Everyone's being very polite—I don't mind going first. So, I think it's really difficult to identify a single cause. Obviously, it is a societal issue in terms of the views of society in terms of gender roles, discrimination and that kind of thing. But, obviously, for us, it's really important to note that you can't separate a child or young person from the context and the environment that they live in. So, they could be getting influences from family, from their peers, wider community, schools and that kind of thing. I think it's really important to understand that. I think we've seen a lot of changes in terms of addressing well-being and understanding what's happening for children and young people. I think, because we're putting more of a focus on that, maybe we're seeing now young people coming forward and identifying that these are experiences that they're having. I think that the online side of things, in terms of young people using that as a way to express how they're feeling and their experiences, is also something that we seen happening a lot more now as well. That would be my response.

Thank you. And just before anyone else responds—Sally, I see your hand up—could you just say, from your experience of working with young people and children, what your understanding is of the scale and nature of the sexual harassment that we're seeing? And are you aware of it occurring among young people you work with? And do you, therefore, recognise Estyn's observation that it is normalised within our school environment? Thanks.

Yes, definitely. I think it's something that we support young people with. We were looking at our own records in terms of incidents being reported of sexual harassment amongst young people we've supported in our last reporting year, and we identified 7 per cent. Obviously, it's quite difficult sometimes to identify that, depending on how you're recording data, so I think the same challenges that education settings face are also the same for third sector organisations. But it's certainly something that comes up. It's something that causes a lot of distress for young people, and it's something that we often need to support young people with in terms of raising that with schools, as well, and being that go-between, really, and that voice for that young person, particularly where schools haven't identified it as sexual harassment. So, it's definitely something that comes up a lot and something that young people need quite a bit of support with.

Thank you, Siobhan. Sally.

Yes, just speaking to that question on prevalence and scale, with our work with young girls, it's certainly something that we think is really widespread and it is really endemic in girls' lives. For example, in a recent poll that we conducted with girls, we found that over 50 per cent of them had experienced sexual harassment in the learning environment, and that harassment can manifest itself in terms of verbal types of sexual harassment, so, unwanted sexual comments, so-called cat-calling or wolf-whistling, all the way to physical forms of sexual harassment, so, unwanted touching, grabbing, groping—those kinds of behaviours. So, it is very, very commonplace.

Also, one of the things I wanted to raise with this committee is the fact that this sexual harassment isn't just occurring in schools, and, in fact, the work we do with girls, our own research, really emphasises the fact that this harassment takes place in lots of different public places. So, girls often experience sexual harassment on public transport, on the street, on the way to and from school. Obviously, that sexual harassment isn't necessarily peer on peer, but I think it is important in terms of building that understanding of that wider environment that girls are having to live in and navigate every day. It is very highly prevalent, in our experience, and it needs to be addressed not just in schools, but in other ways and in other interventions.

Thank you for that, Sally. Anyone else want to speak on that? No. Okay. Just on that, talking about the main causes of the increase in this peer-on-peer sexual harassment, do you think that that's been exacerbated during the pandemic with the amount of online learning and the fact that children and young people were online for significant amounts of time during the lockdowns? And, do you think it's driven by what they're seeing online—pornography or images of that kind? And what other societal factors do you think there are at play? Thanks.

I definitely think that the content that young people are accessing online has an impact. I think there's a real issue in the sense of our understanding, as professionals and also as parents, of exactly what young people are accessing online. And I think that we have to come to the realisation that, often, young people know a lot more than we do about the different apps and things that they're accessing and the fact that they are living in a digital world—it's a very big part of how they communicate. So, I definitely think that there is an impact there. I think more needs to be done to look into things like pornography and those kinds of discussions, really, around what young people are actually looking at. But I think the huge things around social media—TikTok, all of the different things that they see—to them, are a way of understanding, sometimes, what is normal in a relationship or what society says you have to behave like or be like as, perhaps, a female. So, I do think that it is a major issue, and I don't think that we've really got a grasp of exactly how big that problem is, really.

Absolutely. Sally, did you want to come in?

I was just about to—

Sorry, Lowri.

You go, Lowri.

That's where I think the Urdd has a big role to play, where, obviously, it's hard to fight against the tide of social media and different types of platforms, but all across Wales at different levels, whether in the community or on residential trips or out in the open space, we can positively show children and young people the different kinds of relationships, from adults showing good examples of how to treat people and so on, and taking them on, maybe, a digital detox, which also can help, and maybe help them realise what's happening in their world and opening up to that. And, obviously, we've got procedures in place to be able to deal with anything that's being disclosed to us as leaders.

Thank you for that, Lowri. Sally.

Yes, I agree with everything that's been said. I think lockdown obviously had a profound impact on lots of children and young people's lives, on their mental health and well-being in terms of lack of access to those normal peer and support networks, and lack of access to education. And I know we'll probably go on to discuss relationships and sexuality education, but I think lockdown did have an impact in terms of access to that education that obviously had an impact in terms of young people's understanding about healthy and unhealthy relationships. And then you combine that with increased time online, and perhaps increased access to pornography, and I think, together, that does perhaps compound the problems and the behaviours that we're seeing.

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Laura. Buffy Williams.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you all for joining us this afternoon. From your experiences of working with young people, do you believe peer-on-peer sexual harassment is affecting particular groups of learners, for example, girls and LGBTQ+ pupils? If so, what more can and should be done to support them? Who wants to go first?

I don't mind. It's definitely something that's come up with the groups of young people we work with. Within our services, probably about 15 per cent of the young people we support are LGBTQ+, and I think, for them, the biggest issue that comes up is around more general harassment due to them questioning either their gender or their gender identity or sexuality, and that not being fully understood particularly comes up a lot around their experience in school and how teachers respond to them, with it often thought of as being a bit of a phase and that kind of thing. And, for them, the overwhelming feedback is that they really want more spaces to be able to talk about their experiences and to be understood and accepted. That comes up as a really big thing. So, I think, because sometimes they don't always feel that that is in place already, it makes it more difficult, then, to have those conversations around things like specific sexual harassment that they may be facing as well. So, that's what I would say for that.

I think that there are certainly groups of young people who are disproportionately impacted by peer-on-peer sexual harassment, and our work with girls really shows the disproportionate impact that this behaviour has on girls, and that, again, was reflected in the Estyn report as well. And particularly adolescent girls, I think, are vulnerable to this type of sexual harassment. I think it's important just to think about the intersections of the way that sexual harassment manifests itself according to different groups of young people's identities—so, for example, for us in particular, thinking about the ways that sexual harassment is experienced by LGBT girls, by black and minoritised girls, disabled girls, and how those girls may not only be more likely to experience that sexual harassment, but also the ways in which that sexual harassment is experienced. So, for example, black girls experience both racialised and sexualised forms of harassment, and that can really compound the harm for them. So, I think there's definitely a need to recognise and acknowledge the fact that there are certain groups who are more likely to be affected.

And in terms of that point around support, I mean, certainly from our research, and talking particularly around our 'The State of Girls' Rights in the UK 2019-2020' research, we did have a lot of feedback from girls saying that they wanted more information and support with regard to getting support for the sexual harassment they experience. And they particularly talked about really valuing the support they often had from one individual teacher, or not necessarily a classroom teacher, but a librarian or a certain member of support staff, any member of that pastoral team. I think that's really crucial to ensure that there is that holistic support within the school, with whatever that pastoral team includes, and not just thinking about the designated safeguarding lead—as I say, that wider support team—and then thinking about how that school relates to those specialist organisations that might be able to provide that specialist support for those children who need it when they experience that type of behaviour, and not just thinking about the victim but also those children who are engaging in these types of harmful sexual behaviours.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Over to Peter Fox now.

Thank you, Chair, and good to meet you all today, and thanks for your input so far. I've only got a couple of questions. They're around awareness and management of the problem. It's quite specific, really. If and when there have been incidents of sexual harassment between young people all of you've worked with, how effectively do you believe these issues have been dealt with, and do you believe young people are any more likely to report incidents to youth workers than they would do to their teachers?

It's a really important question. From our experience, obviously, we work in lots of different schools, and I think what we see is an inconsistency, really, I suppose, in how situations are dealt with and managed. Many of the young people that perhaps disclose their experiences to us haven't spoken to their school. A lot of the reasons that we are informed of there are that they don't believe that it is going to be taken seriously, or maybe also situations where they don't even identify for themselves that what they're experiencing is sexual harassment. I think it's the point that Sally was making earlier, in terms of there needing to be lots of different people that young people feel safe to be able to approach and speak to about these experiences.

I know, obviously, it's not a blanket example, but we had an example shared with us very recently of a young person who had found out that there was a rumour circulating about her from a young male pupil that he had raped her, and this was not correct. She approached a teacher to say that a certain rumour was circulating and it was not correct, and please could something be done about it, and the response that she got from the teacher was that the male pupil in question was a lovely boy and he wouldn't do anything like that, and, 'Do you understand the distress that you could cause by raising this issue?' So, that's a recent thing that's happened.

I think, in terms of how it's responded to and managed, there are inconsistencies, and I think that has a lot to do with the fact that sometimes it is normalised or maybe staff or professionals don't have awareness of these issues, or maybe it's not something that they feel comfortable talking to young people about. So, I think that is a big issue, but young people need a choice in terms of who they speak to, and I don't think this is just something that should come down, really, to all educational professionals. As you mentioned, youth workers are absolutely vital. Many, many third sector organisations do go to schools but also work in the community. We all have a responsibility, really, to ensure that we're responding appropriately to young people and validating their experiences.

Thanks for that. Lowri, have you got a similar view?

Yes, 100 per cent. I think training and awareness are crucial. That's why we're going to prioritise this across the board throughout the Urdd, so every member of staff does receive an element of training on this to know exactly what to do and how to react, so rather than guesswork or just things that they might think, they know what the correct procedure is. I think that is key. Also, across the board, I think more awareness is needed of what the path is once a child or young person discloses something, and that they also understand, because it can be quite difficult, so it's not the unknown to them, so that they know what the next steps are. I think that is totally crucial. But also maybe, not so much that—well, it's all linked—it's the help that comes after that. We've had a few incidents where we've been trying to help a few young people—. Because, also, we employ a lot of staff between 16 and 18, so occasional staff and so on, so we do get a lot through that as well. But so the paths are clear, and if we signpost them to CAMHS or whatever, that it is readily available, that there's somewhere that they can go, so it's not just, effectively, talk, that they are signposted to somewhere else.

That's helpful. Thank you, Lowri. Sally.

I just want to pick up on that point around training. I think that is really crucial. Lots of teachers and education professionals just haven't had that access to training in terms of how to respond appropriately. I think our experience and our work with girls shows that, yes, responses to incidents when they are reported are extremely variable. One of the things that's come up again through our research is that girls do sometimes say that they feel the burden is placed on them as the victim, rather than on those pupils that are carrying out the behaviours, and that's very problematic.

Specific examples are of girls being told, when they get sent explicit sexual images, that their phone's being taken away, or comments generally around the length of their skirt, which really just puts the blame and the responsibility on them to manage the way that they look and the way that they behave to avoid sexual harassment. I think that narrative is really harmful. We do really need to get that training right to ensure that teachers are responding in the way that they should. Again, I think that's really crucial in terms of increasing reporting, because if in that first report that child or young person has a negative experience, I think that is going to really stop them from ever coming forward again in that school environment.

Thanks, all, for that. That's all from me. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Peter. Just finally from me, a question about the new curriculum. How much of a difference do you think it's going to make, and in particular how might the teaching of RSE under the new curriculum improve matters?

I'm happy to go first again. I think it's going to have a massive impact. I think it's a really positive thing. I think it will help in terms of being able to address some of these issues and open up conversations around healthy relationships, because, essentially, that's what we're talking about, really. This is happening in the context of peer-on-peer relationships, and positive healthy relationships are absolutely fundamental for positive well-being. So, it's really, really important, and I think there's an opportunity, really, to use this as a way to address some of these issues.

From a young person's perspective, in terms of what young people have been telling us, I think it's going to be important to consider how it's delivered in the sense of ensuring that there are opportunities for it to be conversational and that young people feel that they're meaningfully involved and are able to talk about these situations and these issues in a safe environment—instead of it just being a transactional process of, 'Here's the information that you need', kind of opening up those discussions around, 'Well, how does this impact us particularly in this school or in this community?' For young people to really feel that they have a voice in that is really important to them. So, I think that is a consideration. Another thing that young people also say to us that they like is to know about real-life situations where this has happened, because, I think, without that, sometimes you miss the impact that it has on people, and it makes people sit up and realise, 'Okay, this does have an impact on somebody else, and these behaviours are serious.'

So, yes, I think there's a huge opportunity. I think it's a really, really positive thing. Again, I'd come back to the point around training and how confident staff feel to have these conversations, because sometimes it can be quite difficult to contain that, and just really ensuring that the people who are delivering that have the support, the confidence, the information and the resources that they need to be able to deliver that successfully and feel like they're doing a good job in that, and obviously minimising any potential further harm that could come from that. But, I think it's a really positive thing. I would just encourage them as well to look at what's available in the third sector in terms of support and resources—there's so much out there as well that can support that—and just create meaningful conversations with young people and listen to what they've got to say.

Excellent. Thank you. Lowri.

I always say that the Urdd has been living the new curriculum for many years. We're all about learning through activity and building confidence and so on. A lot of children this week have been going for a walk down to Llangrannog. It's a lovely walk, but it's also teaching them so many other things. There are about six lessons in an hour there, and a lot of learning happening within that hour across the board. So, it's all about building confidence as the basic rule, and I think it's going to be extremely important. We're welcoming the new curriculum and I think it will suit us as the Urdd very much. We're looking forward to working with schools and building confidence in young people. I think that's the basis—that they're confident in disclosing or confident in their own abilities and their own relationships.

Excellent. Thank you. Sally.

I think it's really, really crucial that the subject has been made statutory and we really welcome that reform. I think all the evidence, not just from Estyn but many other sources, showed that relationships and sexuality education hasn't been comprehensive or consistent across schools, so this is a real opportunity to make sure that that provision is comprehensive, holistic, empowering and inclusive for all children and young people. It's already been mentioned, but that training is absolutely crucial to get this right, and when we're thinking about training, not just making sure that teachers understand the very complex and sensitive issues that are covered in the curriculum, but also the 'how'—so, the pedagogy, thinking about those skills-based approaches, participatory approaches that are really going to make this subject engaging and inclusive. I think that is just as important as the content and the knowledge behind the new curriculum.

I just want to pick up on a comment that Siobhan made around pupil voice. I think that is really crucial. I think one of the things that the Estyn report pointed out was that huge gap between what teachers understood was going on in young people's lives and the reality. I think in order to bridge that and in order to recognise some of the things that we've already said around the changing nature of peer-on-peer sexual harassment—the ways that it manifests online—we need to make sure that we are getting people's views and experience feeding into this new curriculum so that it really remains relevant to their lives. As I say, this reform has huge potential. I think relationships and sexuality education is so import for really changing attitudes and behaviours. But, yes, we do really need to get the training right to ensure it's implemented effectively.

Absolutely. Excellent. Thank you. That brings us to the end of this session. Thanks so much for joining us. A transcript will be on its way to you very soon. If you could check over it and let us know if any corrections need to be made. But thank you for everything—it's very, very, very good of you to attend. We'll now end the broadcast, I think, and then come back in a few moments.

We move to papers to note. There are eight papers, and full details of the papers are set out on the agenda and in the paper pack. There is one paper, paper 3, which is the paper on the Children's Commissioner for Wales's legal power and remit. It struck the Chair, Jayne Bryant, when I spoke with her, that it may be beneficial for us to write to the Welsh Government to seek their views on the issues raised in that paper. If there are no objections, the clerking team will do that. Excellent. Okay. And all other papers are purely to note. Okay.

We'll now go into private session.