, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Yes? Is that okay?
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
I'm sure that there would have to be a change to a Welsh version, because 'Presiding Officer' is the term in legislation at the moment, so there would need to be some change—whether that is changing 'Presiding Officer' to 'Llywydd' in English and in Welsh, or…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Okay. So, a maximum of two. And then, just on the name, I end up, obviously, calling myself Llywydd, and that's the term I use. But, for people from outside of Wales primarily, that's unfamiliar to them, so I call myself a Presiding Officer. And then, all of…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Do we think that we're getting to a consensus with a maximum of two? But then, obviously, it will be for the next Senedd to decide on that. And, this is always, of course, subject to a vote. The Standing Orders would reflect the need to vote two Deputy…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Okay. That's good. Anything else? What's proposed there is slightly different to what was said by Labour, and probably Plaid Cymru, but possibly achieves the same thing, which is you set a maximum of two deputy speakers. The politics of the time, possibly…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Okay, let's do the numbers first then. Darren, do you have a view on this?
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Yes. I can see that there's a logic to 12 being a minimum, because it is the current Government, but I don't know why we would want to introduce a minimum that is higher than 12 in the legislation. A Government could bring forward a Government that is between…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
The other option that could be available to us is to have a maximum that is somewhere towards the middle of this, of 16, say, which is the Labour group proposal in the written form, but with a possibility of a two-thirds vote, a supermajority vote, up to 19…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
I'm putting officials on the spot there, but it's certainly something we can look at in terms of a minimum number.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Can I just be clear, then, why there should be a minimum? I'm not quite understanding the concept of why a minimum is necessary.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Okay. Fine. I think we've rehearsed all the issues. I think there's an agreement that there should be an upper limit in the legislation. There is some disagreement as to whether there should be a minimum and what that minimum should be, so we need to further…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Lesley.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
It increases the absolute numbers, but it doesn't increase the percentage, does it? Darren.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Yes, but it doesn't increase the ratio of scrutiny versus Government, does it? It maintains the ratio.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Well, we are—
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
I would remind Members again of the main purpose of doing all of this. All of the external evidence, the Laura McAllister report, focused on the need to improve scrutiny and not necessarily increase the size of Government.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Yes, in terms of proportionality—
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
All I would say about setting a minimum is that you could see a Government formed following a manifesto that said, 'We want to shrink the size of Government in Wales and we want fewer Ministers in order to improve the situation'. Then placing a high…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
We'll conclude on this this morning with the fact that setting a maximum number in legislation is something that we should aim to, similar to the legislation that we currently have, and that that maximum should be possibly 19, which is a proportionate…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
You're the one who said there shouldn't be a minimum, and I'm agreeing with you, Darren. I know that's unusual territory, but not unusual in the Business Committee, maybe. We don't have a minimum currently, remember, so we only currently have a maximum of 12…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Yes, which isn't the case in our current setup. That would be a means of confirming the number, then, as well as the names that would be given at that point, I'm guessing. I'm hearing that there is some support for a minimum of 16, but not by you, Darren. I…
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Thank you for telling me that I was right in referring to Scotland and that there is some kind of voting process, or that the Government is voted in by the Parliament—yes?
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Oh, we've seen quite a few. [Laughter.] Yes, Jane.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
You never know, with independent-thinking Government backbenchers, what that vote might bring up.
, Business Committee
Senedd Reform
Yes, you're right. The Welsh Government did say that as well.
