, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
I'll come to Peter.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
In that discussion this morning, we were talking about how Government departments—if one does one thing, what the impact is. And this is obviously where we're talking about this. We were then in the session with the NHS and social services, and saying that…
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Because you'll have heard him talk—. Sorry, Emma, do you want to come in on that? Sorry.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
What were your thoughts on the matrix that he was talking about, and how could that work for Government—Government departments, Government in general and then other public bodies?
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
You listened to the session with the future generations commissioner earlier. So, that is a strong commitment from you to work with him on doing that.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Mike, are you—? Is that it?
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
But is it finding something—a halfway house within that—to help with that? Sorry, Mike, have you—?
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Huw, did you want to come in?
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
But it builds up, doesn't it? So, if you're seeing that, you'd see how things are performing, you'd see how policies are performing, to be able to forecast, to be able to see, 'Is this going in the right direction?', the same as you'd do on a daily basis and…
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Yes, is there a—? To be able to answer the challenge, because you say to us all the time, 'What would you cut?', and we rehearse the argument over and over and over, and it probably doesn't get us very far, would there be a method of getting an office for…
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
I'll bring Peter in as well.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
I think Huw would like to come in on this. I'll bring you back in after, Mike.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
And it becomes a bit more progressive, then, rather than just the three bands. Interesting. There we are. Well, Mike has been waiting patiently on screen and I'll go over to Mike for some questions now. Diolch.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
But the behavioural effect is built into the calculator, though, isn't it?
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
But it's higher now that the thresholds have been frozen for a while, so more and more people are going into that. So, it's increasing some of that.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Yes, but the cumulative effect—. It's not cumulating across. Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Let's move on just in case I confuse myself even more, but, yes, I'll think about it for next time and I'll come back to you with a question on that…
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Yes, but the 1p wouldn't—. What I'm driving at is the impact would be less. You wouldn't see it as much in your pay packet. You wouldn't see the knock-on in your pay packet as much because it's only 1p of that band.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
So, effectively, it's not 1p on the whole bracket; it's only on the 10p.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
In that bracket.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Yes, try and explain it back to me, because I'm not sure if I've explained it well enough.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Okay. One thing I just wanted to check, and just check my understanding, really. With the Welsh rates of income tax, the behavioural aspect of people being—. Say we put the Welsh rates of income tax up by 1p, the cumulative impact on an individual would only…
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
And it's that de-risking then, isn't it, of—? Because you smooth out those adjustments.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Excellent.
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
I suppose we're not seeing so much of the behavioural, or people moving out of the UK, because of thresholds being held. So, that fiscal drag is dragging more and more people into the higher rate and the top rate. So, I suppose there are pros and cons to…
, Finance Committee
Scrutiny of the Welsh Government Draft Budget 2024-25: Evidence session 8
Okay. We were in the tax conference before Christmas as well. It was quite interesting to be in a room full of people who are interested in tax. It was great to be part of that for a short time, anyway. And we were talking about all different ideas and…
