, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Well, no, because, first of all, we'd always consult anyway. Of all the criticisms even you might make of the Welsh Government, James—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
—and we just talked about it on the M4. So, we hope very much that, by a combination of measures that can be introduced now and changes in technology and changes in working behaviour, patterns and driving and all the rest of it, the air quality on the M4 will…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I think that's a fair question, isn't it, but we're talking, I think, over the next three years, so I don't think there'll be too many future Governments in that space of time—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Yes, but the point I'm making is you'd make a much better opportunity of that opportunity if we streamlined it so that the ones where nobody is really very interested in them and they're so technical that you've got very little chance of understanding what…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I'm really happy to have a discussion with the committee about what they think is appropriate or not appropriate on which procedure. Broadly speaking, we've used the negative procedure where there's already a regulation power that has a negative procedure…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
So, as soon as possible, but to be upfront, 'as soon as possible', we think, is about three years.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I would, but I understand—. I'm not the expert here at all and I have to defer to the people who are. I understand why—. It's been explained to me a lot why the three years is necessary. It takes us a while to get the data stations in place, it takes the data…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Absolutely.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
So, if you put us under a duty to do it, you kind of have to put a timescale to it, and I'd be concerned that the timescale would drive poor decision making.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Yes, you did. [Laughter.] But I'll give you a slightly different answer, which is: it's not the duty that we're afraid of, it's the timescale.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Alun and I, once, when we were in an exact opposite relationship over a Bill—if you remember, Alun—I said, 'Why have you got a power and not a duty?' Do you remember it? That was exactly the same conversation.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
—but it's the timescale that you'd then need to look at.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I'd be prepared to look at that, if I'm honest—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Can I just say the last one, which I think is a more constitutional point, really, which is that I think that that makes people lazy legislators? That's my personal view. But I can think of loads of Acts that have got a target on them and nobody has ever…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Yes. We can't get down to that on the A470 unless we knock down every house all of the way along wherever. That's not going to happen, so what would happen? We want implementable targets. We also want to be able to ramp up the kind of work that we do to get…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
But what would we be putting them in—? What I think Olwen is saying, nicely, is that we couldn't achieve them. So, you would be doing exactly as I said at the beginning: you'd be putting unachievable targets onto the face of a Bill, and then everybody would…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Yes, please.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
No, I don't think they would drive the kind of improvements—.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I don't think we know what those targets should look like right now. I think there's a real risk, if we did put targets on—. There are three separate things, actually. So, whether the actual targets themselves would mean anything. I think we'd probably have…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I'm going to get Olwen to talk a little bit about data, if you don't mind, Olwen. Olwen's used to having to talk about data. But the answer is that we just haven't been collecting it at the Wales scale in the way that we want, and we also collect it in…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
I absolutely share that, as it happens. You’ll know that, in some of the other Bills that I’m taking through, I’ve resisted having a duty to report on various things, and said that it should go into the Government of Wales report, so that the Government has a…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
We say within three years, and that's based on how long we think it will take us to get a robust set of data. I'd be really reluctant to shorten that, because I don’t want to cut corners on the data collection. Three years from where we sit now is quite…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
It goes back to the legislators, doesn't it? At that point, somebody in the backbenches would be doing something about it. And then, for me, the process of how do the regulations become law is very important—and I guess you're going to come on to that. But…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
Yes, but I don't think the—. I think there is—. I think what I'm trying to say is that there is a sufficient duty to consult, but we've got to consult about the plan, we've got to consult about the data, we've got to publish it all. What would you do with a…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill: Evidence Session with the Minister for Climate Change
If the committee can figure out a way to make it obligatory for the regulations to come forward, then—
