, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Indeed.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I'm very happy to look at it. I will say to the Chair though, as the Chair's very familiar with this—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I will say, Chair, that if the committee feels strongly that we should have an affirmative process where we've got a negative indicated, please say. I'm not averse at all to looking at that.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I absolutely get that this has to be Minister-proof. This is not about the bona fides of a particular Minister; it's about the ability of a Minister determined to push the power to the limit not to be able to do so. Absolutely right. So, we can go through…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, it's a really difficult one, isn't it, genuinely? So, if you think about one of the powers that we have: we want to be able to disapply some parts of the process to a particular application. Well, that's because the process can be quite onerous, and we…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, not really, no, because what I've tried to do, as I say, is strike the balance between having a Bill that's manageable, understandable and accessible, so that you can understand the process, and one that's flexible enough not to need primary legislation…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Thank you, James. As you know, we've put out statements of policy intent about how the regulation-making powers contained within the Bill are intended to be used. I'm very happy to continue to do that. They're very specific, and there are very good reasons…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
A framework Bill is traditionally one where there is very little policy in detail on the face of the Bill, with wide executive powers—Henry VIII powers, typically—which can be used in a wide variety of ways, typically with no further scrutiny. This is a…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
—and why that one and not the others, or whatever, then that would be very helpful to us. Or, indeed, if you can think of other ways, as Adam Price was suggesting there, that there might be other ways of writing a process in, I'm very happy to look at it. I…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I will add, though. I do mean this very sincerely, Chair; I wasn't being flippant. We really are building on existing planning law at various points in this Bill. So, if the committee has a view about where it would be helpful to set that out or not—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
One of the reasons we fund Planning Aid Wales is that these things are very complicated—and the process you're talking about at the moment, by the way, is the DNS process, which is obviously what we're trying to substitute this for, because we're trying to…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, I do. I do, absolutely. I do think, though—
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, the process set out in the Bill very much envisages a proper pre-application stage, where the applicant—the potential applicant, of course; you're not obliged to apply—might decide to cut and run as a result of it, but that the pre-application stage is…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, I absolutely hear that, Alun, but you have to bear in mind that it would be very hard indeed to stop somebody, pre pre-application stage, from just going and consulting in the community without any rights at all for various things. The role, isn't it, is…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I can see the argument really clearly, however, if you're in a pre-application stage, none of that would apply. So, current consultations right across Wales on a large number of projects are at pre-application stage. So, none of that would bite—unless we…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, that's the other thing to say, that this Bill is going first deliberately, and then there will be a consolidation Bill, which obviously consolidates it. So, we don't want to make that overly complicated either. So, I think the Counsel General will have a…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, because we're not looking to replicate the whole of planning law in the Bill. Why would you choose that particular one and not all of the other things that we're also doing the same? So, that's the first one. If the committee feels strongly about that…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, indeed. A justice impact assessment was submitted to the Ministry of Justice back in January, and we got a response back in April that said that the Bill would have a nil-to-minimum impact on the justice system, so no amendment to our approach was…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, that’s really commonplace, isn’t it? Lots of local authorities are also a developer and so on, so it’s a quasi-judicial process. You’re obligated to follow the rules of that, so you’d have a split of responsibility inside the Government. We have an…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes. So, what we’re trying to do, isn’t it, is strike a balance between peaceful enjoyment of your property and the ability of a planning inspector or process to look in the greater public interest at impact. You could put that the other way round: you might…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, these replicate powers that already exist in the planning system, and this is to ensure that it's a discretionary thing, where you can't get consensus, you can still go and inspect for various purposes and so on, but it is intended to make sure that…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
So, we're really happy that the policy here actually helps individuals engage with the process. The DNS process has a lot to be desired and it's obviously going to be substituted by this process here, and what this does is streamline the processes so that…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Diolch. So, we've done an assessment of the Bill, as always, to ensure that it's compatible with human rights and the usual tests of proportionality, justification and reasonableness in balancing the rights of individuals—the normal assessment that we would…
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Mine's not working, sorry. Hang on. Try again.
, Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee
Infrastructure (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I haven't had any conversations about the Minister of the Crown consents, because the officials are dealing with it and as far as they're concerned, it's going well. Neil, I don't know if you want to—
