, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, I do think there are significant benefits. I think time spent outdoors is very good for young people's learning; it's good for mental health and well-being; it's also good for understanding the connections between people and nature; it's good for…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, I do. I think the costs over the next five years are likely to be—. They're not likely to be going down, are they?
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
It's different because this is related to one part of the curriculum, and I'm setting it in the context of the curriculum, and this Bill creates an obligation for Ministers to fund residential outdoor provision in a very specific way, but doesn't, for…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, there are two aspects to that: firstly, because the particular pressures on budgets now require us to have a clearer sense of what the future implications of legislation might be. I do accept the point you're making that you could use that test against…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I do accept the point you're making: it is sometimes challenging to be specific. Needless to say, the point I'm making is, when you're working in a climate when budgets are under such incredible pressure, that becomes more of an issue.
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, it's the current financial climate, I think. We are at a point where—
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
There are some assumptions. The RIA makes assumptions about the kinds of costs that are included within the duty, effectively. Staffing costs is one example, but there are others as well, and I don't think they fully capture the range of costs. But in so far…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think so. I don't have any particular concerns on the data sources that are being used.
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
My broader point, which is a policy point, not a finance point, but it may be useful for this discussion, is that I don't think this is the only way that the curriculum can achieve the objectives of making sure that young people get access to outdoor…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, because of my point about funding pressures, I don't believe schools are in a position to fund from their current budgets the level of duty that this Bill creates, and that's why the Bill asks me to find the additional money for schools.
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, I do accept that it is a matter of priorities, there's no question about that. My point, I think, is that there are other things that have a prior call on Government funding, which is under incredible pressure. So, if you were to say to me, 'If the Bill…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
We can—. From a policy point of view, we can provide some further information.
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
There's a licensing regime, isn't there?
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I might ask one of my colleagues about the cost of Estyn inspections. I don't think that is the case, but I'll turn to them for that. On the question of whether it will create more of a demand, I expect that is a possibility. I think it's quite hard to know…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think they are, generally speaking, in line with what we think is the case. I don't think we could be confident that those costs are likely to reduce over the coming years, which I think is an assumption in the RIA, because of costs of living generally and…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think it's hard to know, in truth. There is an element of uncertainty around what residential outdoor education might involve in a particular context, for a particular school, for a particular group of young people. And I think it is a fair assumption to…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Okay. So what the Bill—. The Bill has the effect, and I have no doubt about this, of making residential outdoor education a compulsory part of the curriculum. The Bill then goes on to say that, through guidance, Ministers can address aspects of that, but that…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, just as a matter of first principle, the more closely defined something is, the easier it is to cost. And some of the points that you just asked about are the sorts of things that the code requires Ministers to provide guidance on. My own view is that…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, I think it does necessarily, because there is a gap at the heart of the Bill in that the purpose of the Bill is not defined in that sense, which I think is highly problematic from a policy point of view, but it's also problematic from a funding point of…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, I—. The short answer to your question is, 'No, I don't want to achieve that', for the following reason. I think outdoor learning is a very, very good thing; I don't think what this Bill seeks to achieve in terms of providing a residential course of a…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
If that is what you were trying to achieve, you would need a Bill.
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Essentially. If what the Bill simply, as it were, wants to do—which for policy reasons I also don't think is a good idea, but, from the point of view of your question, if what the Bill simply wants to do is to make an experience of residential outdoor…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, there are two main provisions in the Bill, and both of them operate by way of including new sections in the 2021 curriculum legislation. So, the first is in the first section, section 1(2) of the Bill, and that provides a broadly based obligation on the…
, Finance Committee
Financial Implications of the Residential Outdoor Education (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Jeremy Miles, Minister for Education and the Welsh Language. I have Emyr Harries, who is responsible for this area within Welsh Government, and Lloyd Hopkin, who is responsible for the curriculum in Welsh Government.
, Plenary
Statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language: Vocational qualifications
Just to acknowledge the point that Hefin David makes, and it's very much consistent with the theme of his report, and I think it is about identifying good practice, isn't it? He mentioned Neath Port Talbot college; I have my own connection with that college…
