, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, at one level, this is a complex area, but, on the other hand, it's quite simple. So, what are the possible options in terms of relationship? You say in your question that there is a responsibility on the commission to drive Welsh-medium provision and…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, 'only' is your word; it's not included in the legislation. That is not what the duty encompasses. It's broader than that. That is, the discussion that we've had in a number of contexts on statutory education and so on is that it's not our intention or…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, in drafting the Bill, we have looked at the interface between ALN legislation on the one hand and what we propose in the Bill for the commission. So, that work was a core part of the development of the Bill as it currently stands. The 2018 Act provides…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
I think the Bill will enable us to deliver—will support us in delivering that number, for sure. So, the question of 'more clunky', I think my own language is being used back at me here—I think I described the current system as 'clunky', so I'm being…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, this concept of rationalisation—I don't want to set a hare running—that language is used in the existing legislation. So, that's the relevance of that phrase; it's not that there are some new tools being deployed for the purpose of rationalisation. The…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, I don't think we can do that. Again, and I don't want to keep saying the same phrase, but it's about, you know, it's one sector but there is a plurality of provision in the sector. And I think quality is one of those areas where what we're trying to do…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Yes. Well, it is right, they're right: there are two sources of funding, but there are two sets of activities. So, I think, in very high-level terms, that's the rationale for it. Estyn is currently funded, obviously, by us, by the Welsh Government, under the…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, it was not the intention, and I also don't think it's the outcome. I don't think there is an overlap in the powers of the commission and Estyn. I think the Bill sets out pretty clearly who does what in this space, if I can put it like that. So, there…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, academic freedom in that sense is part of the Bill as it's currently drafted. I'd be happy to look at the particular point you've made to ensure—. You did make quite a detailed point, so I will just check again that I am happy that that has been covered.
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Sure. I think, just for context, when you say 'announced', it was a decision to explore the feasibility of a national body, actually, rather than the announcement of a body being established. So, my personal view is that the key issue here is about national…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
HEFCW has given you evidence of that. I know the Learned Society have a view on this and the chairs of universities in Wales have also raised questions and proposals in this space. I think it's kind of helpful to decouple them a little bit, because there's a…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
I suppose the first question here is: what is the purpose of the Bill, isn't it? So, is the purpose of the Bill to regulate research, or is the purpose of the Bill to regulate the post-compulsory education sector, in very broad terms? There's obviously an…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Okay. So, in a way, this is a borrowed concept, if I can use that term. It is borrowed from the existing legislative framework. So, if you look at the Learning and Skills Act 2000, that makes a distinction between facilities that are proper and those that are…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, the objective of the Bill is to create one sector with a plurality and diversity of providers. That's one piece of context. The other piece of context is that the Bill isn't able to change the entire landscape of how, for example, in this particular…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
I do, actually, on the whole, from what they said to you, and I think we could and should include more detail in the EIA. To be honest, much of that is to reflect evidence that's already been collated, so some of it might require a bit more investigation, but…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Why is there no similar provision in the Bill? By that I take it that you mean a general broad-based duty across the piece, if you like. So, the starting point for any law really, but it's definitely the case here, is that we have institutions that are…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
I have had correspondence in relation to this matter, so I'd be happy to write specifically to the committee on the current arrangements. In terms of how that is amended by the Bill, I'm afraid it won't be. You might recall the discussion we had the last time…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Yes, of course. Look, I'm conscious that stakeholders have given evidence to you along those lines, and, as it happens, I was able to attend the cross-party group on universities where this was a theme that a number of people raised there as well. The concept…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, those are two separate scenarios, Chair, really. The point, really, is that—. Firstly, on the question of directions more broadly, the kind of example that has—. I suppose the most recent example, if I can put it like that, isn’t actually a direction…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, the rationale for that is that the content of the Bill is consistent with current provisions in the 2015 legislation, and those include the duties and work of HEFCW alone. So, that's the rationale—it reflects what's currently in place in the context of…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, we've followed a different path to the approach of the 1992 Act. That certainly is true. The Bill allows us as Ministers to give directions, but there are limits on that and there are safeguarding steps involved there. That is to say there would need to…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Well, the simple answer to your question is that I do intend to introduce an amendment in this area. In terms of the content of that amendment, I am still considering what that will look like. But just to give you some context, if I may, the powers contained…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
Yes, I agree entirely with you. It's extremely important; it's important in our public bodies in general, and we are working to ensure that. As it happens, there is currently a piece of work ongoing—it may have even been communicated now—where the public…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
There are definitely lessons to be learned from elsewhere, but I don't think they're lessons, if I can be clear, that we learn from ELWa, Chair, because I think that was a very different enterprise indeed. We are talking here about actually bringing together…
, Children, Young People, and Education Committee
Tertiary Education and Research (Wales) Bill—evidence session 11
As we all know, the OU's relationship with the Bill is slightly different, for reasons that are to do with its establishment and its compass, but, having said that, the values and the objectives of the Bill are four-square with those of the OU, really. So, I…
