, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
I think the fundamentals of what's going to change here are going to be helpful to the third sector. At the moment, the default is you procure everything, you go out to tender, and that actually, I think, is a barrier for a lot of smaller organisations, in…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
I mean, I think that's a good question. In the NHS, there is an issue with have we got enough staff altogether with the limited budget we've got. It falls into that whole broader, 'Have we got enough of everything in the NHS?' When budgets are tight, that's…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, they know that this is coming; they're gearing up for it, they know that they're going to have to gear up for the new Public Procurement (Wales) Bill anyway. The issue about whether there are enough of them is beyond the scope of what I'm able to deal…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
We'll be working closely with statutory partners as part of the stakeholder engagement, to explore how the Bill can work with the national commissioning framework and the integration of health and social care, and that is going to form part of the development…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, clearly, we will need some amount of training for the new procurement Bill. What we don't know yet is what we'll be training them in. So, until we're clear on that, there's no point for us to go too far in putting those preparations in place until we know…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, if health has the biggest value, then it will come under this. So, from what I understand, that's the line. But, clearly, we will need to work collaboratively with local authorities. So, the question then is to what extent they'll be prepared for this…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
I think what we're trying to achieve here in the first place is an opportunity, if we want, to have a level playing field. So, England is not going down that route. Now, I think they have an ambition also to integrate more their health and care services as…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, social care can be included, but only when it's part of a mixed procurement. So, the Department of Health and Social Care have not included social care in their provider selection regime. Mari, this is quite complicated, isn't it, so I don't know if you…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
We'll know which exactly, yes.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
We're expecting that this will apply to clinical healthcare services that are defined under sections 1 and 3 of the National Health Service Act 2006, and that covers, basically, prevention, treatment and diagnosis of illnesses. So, it's very, very broad. What…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, I think it's really important we don't go down a policy route here; this is a technical procurement issue. What health boards want to do and what they want to commission is a separate issue. How they commission is what we're talking about here.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, I think the key thing to remember is that there will be an integrated impact assessment when we go out to consultation on this, and that will, obviously, include equality. So, I think that's quite important. I think the key thing to remember in relation…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Absolutely.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, the key thing to remember is that this is a framework Bill, okay. So, the detail will come in the regulations.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So—. Okay, so, I'll try and—. Because these are very clever people, and I'm just trying to keep up with them. So, my understanding is that in the Procurement Bill—. So, there's this big new Procurement Bill, and what there's going to be is a carve-out for…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Yes. So, it's in Report Stage soon—in the Report Stage soon. So, after that, they'll crack on with the regulations, so—. Obviously—. I can see that there's an issue here, but, obviously, what we're trying to do is to minimise the time gap, so we just need to…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, we think the risks are pretty low. So, obviously, the Health and Care Act 2022 has gone through. So, that has had Royal Assent. But what we're waiting for now is for the final Procurement Bill to go through. We're expecting Royal Assent imminently—
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Yes, and the problem is that we haven't seen their regulations, and, until we see the lines of where the mixed procurement starts and ends, it's difficult for us to answer that question.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, I think what's really important is that there's an understanding that there can be mixed procurement. So, sometimes, there is a little crossover between goods and services. But it's not—. I don't think it's going to be the example you gave; it's not going…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Okay. So, that makes a big difference, obviously. So, we are talking about quite niche services. But there are opportunities as well. We were talking about services in England, as the example I gave, the mental health one—very complex mental health—but…
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
So, I think it's really important for us to make sure there is an understanding that this is about clinical services, so, not goods.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Yes, I mean that's part of the consultation—that's what has been fed back to us.
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
—we'll have to ask them whether they—. But you could ask them that directly, couldn't you, as a committee?
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Well, I guess it's their information to give, so—
, Health and Social Care Committee
Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill: evidence session with the Minister for Health and Social Services
Dafydd, do you want to come in here?
