, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, well, because we don't know—we don't know the impact of this. What I said right at the outset is we have a programme of transformation policies for children's services that we hope will aim to deliver fewer children into care. So, we haven't modelled it…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Because what I was trying to explain was—
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes.
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Okay. So, I think it probably is important to say that the assessment of the costs and benefits was grounded in the assumption that the overall shape of placement provision, i.e. that's the number of looked-after children and the balance provision across…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Okay. Do you want that one?
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think it's fairly straightforward in terms of what we've included in that, isn't it?
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, I'm certainly very much aware of the concerns of private providers in that, and we've seen some of the responses that you've had, from evidence given to the committee. Some of the areas highlighted have been considered in the RIA costings, and I think…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
It's an interesting point; it actually gets to the nub of what the problem is here, in that the private sector can basically determine whatever fees they want to charge, because that's where the bulk of the provision is. Eighty per cent of our providers are…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Of course.
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think absolutely, Mike, we would want to do that, because as I said in answer to an earlier question, this is a new and groundbreaking piece of legislation. A lot of the costs associated with this are uncertain and will become clearer as we move along. So…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, and you can be assured that local government leaders have been fully involved in these discussions. We wouldn't have it any other way, and they wouldn't allow us to have it another way, so I'm very clear about that. But, Alistair, do you want to talk…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think, Chair, probably what it would be worth us doing is just to go through all of those figures again. We can liaise with your officials on that, and if there are discrepancies we'll clarify what those are and how that has come about.
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I hope there can be. Anthony.
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, we've talked about the private providers being part of the elimination board, so they have been involved from the outset, and we've had discussions with them about the process that we're moving towards. I don't know, is it—? Anthony, did you want to pick…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes. And to be clear, obviously, officials are out doing this work on the ground, but I meet with them on a weekly basis. This is all reported back to me and we explore this. I'm satisfied at this stage that what we've presented is as accurate as it can be…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I will ask officials to respond to you on that, because obviously they've been closely engaged with the discussions with the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru and other organisations, partners and stakeholders. I think, Alistair, if I can ask…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I think that the RIA is, by necessity, a complex document, isn't it? But, ultimately, what it does is it reflects the expected substantial impact of the legislation, so that's what it has set out to do. I think it's probably important to say that with new…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Thank you for that. In creating the RIA, what we were looking at was the proportionality of the two big cost drivers in this provision—so, firstly, the proportion of for-profit providers that would convert to not-for-profit business models and all the…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I'm not sure that we can guarantee that that wouldn't happen, but what we—. Sorry, go on.
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
I would hope not, because I would hope that what we are setting out very clearly is that we are moving to a very different model and that wouldn't sit with what we're trying to achieve. We're very clear: we've set out the four models that we would be looking…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Well, certainly, as I just said in response to Peter, we are working with all of the for-profit providers with a view to persuading as many of them as possible to transition into not-for-profit organisations, not-for-profit providers. But, Alistair, is there…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, and I think it's important to say, just to re-emphasise what Alistair is saying, that, with the for-profit providers, we have been in consultation with them throughout every step of this process, involving them. They're part of the elimination programme…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
That's very much, Peter, what we're aiming to do as part of this programme. We're very clear we are going to be taking profit out of the system. We will not be having for-profit providers as part of the normal provision for children's looked-after services…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Sure. You're absolutely right, and that is one of the things that we looked at in terms of the regulations that we would be introducing as part of this Bill, to ensure that that doesn't happen and that these organisations can't find other ways of masking the…
, Finance Committee
Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill: Evidence session
Yes, and that is a distinct and subtle difference, and I take the point you're making. So, what we are talking about is eliminating profit for the purposes of shareholders. We're not talking about necessarily—. We would still expect, even if it was a local…
