Economy, Energy and Connectivity Committee

Bore da, gyfeillion, a chroeso i Aelodau yma heddiw i Bwyllgor yr Economi, Ynni a Chysylltedd yn y Senedd. Mae hwn yn gyfarfod cyhoeddus ac yn cael ei ddarlledu ar Senedd.tv, ac yn gyfarfod dwyieithog.

Croeso arbennig i'r Dirprwy Weinidog dros Drafnidiaeth sydd efo ni heddiw, a'r tîm o swyddogion. Efallai hoffech chi gyflwyno eich hunain yn gyntaf.

Mark Hooper ydw i.

I'm Deputy Minister for Transport. I've got Alison Thomas with me and Duncan Hamer.

Thank you very much and welcome this morning. Obviously, it's a very exciting week. A full workload for you, so we welcome that. Perhaps we will start with overall strategy and planning. The planned Wales transport strategy review: where are we, perhaps, on that, and what priorities are driving that forward? That's a starting point.

Diolch yn fawr. Just to precis that, I think one of the things that I've found in the role so far—. Members will probably have noticed that I am at most of the meetings in the Siambr. I tend to be in there a lot of the time because transport is central to everything that we're doing. I enjoy that, because it shows that whether we're talking about health, whether we're talking about education, whatever we're talking about, transport is central, and that's the reflection that's going to be moving into the transport strategy, to make sure that we're an enabler. Too often, transport is still a disenabler to people to do the things that they need to do.

I think the conversations that we had yesterday were a good example of that. I think the difference that we intend to make into this is to make sure that we can prove that action can be taken. I was very impressed, broadly—. So, transport is also a strategic issue, so you don't deal with things in the—. You don't just flick and change between things; you move things on a strategic level. We talked about the Menai bridge. That's going to take between eight and 10 years to deliver. So, what I'm looking for in this strategy is something where we can gain some broad consensus across the body politic, because I think we've all got a responsibility to make sure we do it.

As an example of me taking on that responsibility, the work that was done for the Transport for Wales vision document is something that I'm really impressed with. It's good work; it sets out a vision that I think we can broadly agree with, and also the UK Government can agree with as well. So, I'm looking for consensus and also looking for action and moving things forward as well.

Diolch yn fawr. Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog.

I should have asked, first of all: are there any declarations of interest today? And if not now, you can always do one—

Just to say, as a former trade unionist, I might know some of the officials, so just to say that.

Okay, diolch yn fawr. That's noted. Okay, sorry. With that, we'll go back to it. Tom, do you want to start?

Yes. Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming to see us. I wanted to pick up on the regional transport planning aspect of the strategy. I know that, in the last Senedd term, there was a shift to corporate joint committees creating those regional transport plans. Particularly in north Wales, transport links exist east-west more so than they do north-south. So, we've got a transport system that exists east-west, but a Government system that exists north-south. And I just wondered how you were working with CJCs to make sure that they are working cross-border as well. Because transport links in north Wales are fundamentally tied to the transport links that exist in Cheshire, Liverpool and Manchester as well. So, I just wondered how the Welsh Government is encouraging the CJCs and enabling them to work with relevant partners across the border as well.

I think that's a really important question. They're something that I've spent a lot of my time since being in office talking to. So, I've met all of the CJCs bar one—we've got the south-west to come in days' to weeks' time. And it's been really important to understand, because I think it's the right thing to do, that we have strategic priorities considered at a regional level. I think that's broadly the right thing to do.

I think when it comes to actually making that happen in reality, there are still some, I call them teething problems, but they're probably a little bit more in depth than that, in that you still get some horse-trading between local authorities. I think we can improve on that. And I think the examples that you spoke about, about making sure that we work into other parts of Wales and across the border, are really important in that. What we've got to do is make sure that those priorities match how people need to travel and how people want to travel, and that's the central point. So, if we have that at the starting point of our conversations, that makes a real difference.

There's work to do, and I think that's exemplified by some of the issues. Llanbedr, for example, is one of those areas where I'm looking into those conversations and engaging with the CJC in the north directly. But as a general rule, I want it to work. I want them to plan on a regional basis. I want to engage with them positively in that as well.

Yes, okay. Thank you.

Leti, do you want to come in?

Yes, I just want to declare that I used to work for Transport for Wales. My question is: Transport for Wales has a lot of information on decisions, the evidence informing them and the lessons learned, which might be useful in developing internal talent and reducing the dependence on consultants. Does Transport for Wales have a strategy to develop internal cross-cutting data analytics and artificial intelligence capabilities that not only transform data into evidence to support decision making, but preserve that institutional knowledge?

So, I completely agree with you that Transport for Wales have a knowledge base that we are linking into. And it's something that we've asked them to consider in terms of things that are outside of what you would think would be their normal responsibility. So, for example, making sure that we plan around transport-orientated planning. We've asked them to consider that because they've obviously got the stations and they can add that work to it.

But I also think that it's really important for them to consider how they add value to what we do in Welsh Government with a perspective that also relates to things like the devolution of rail. I think that's something that they can add a real perspective to—they can help us with our planning. But they can also help us with making sure that we sequence these decisions properly as well. Because we talk about rail devolution; I've talked about it in the Senedd. There's broad consensus in the Senedd over devolution. But it's about making sure that we show the 'how'—how does it make a difference? And I think, going back to the point I made earlier to Tom, that making sure we're putting the travelling public at the centre of those conversations is something that they can do.

I think the second point about making sure that it's developed in terms of the talent that is being developed within there, we've got a, I think—. I've been very impressed by TfW since I've been in post. I've been impressed by the leadership, and I've been impressed by their perspective on making sure that they engage throughout their colleague base. And I think that's shown in the way that the drivers use technology to be able to train to drive. And I actually sat in a trainee driver truck. I drove a train—not a real one. These are things where we use technology to be able to aid us in those decisions.

Yes, but is there a plan? How are you going to make sure that they use all this data? I think my question was more about having an in-house team that is in charge of processing all of this, to make sense of the data that we have.

If I may come in on that, I think you've highlighted an area that absolutely is an area that we're focused on and need to continue developing. The world of AI and technology is changing so rapidly. Practically speaking, within my directorate, we take in secondees from TfW, so we learn what they're up to, and I'm able to properly represent them as sponsor. We are pretty focused on data and trying to make sure it informs the decisions we make. But I would accept that this, through this Senedd term, is something we'll probably want to come back to, because it's a rapidly emerging development. We have data analysis teams, but I think it's fair to comment that there's more we can do in that space and absolutely improve. It is a rapidly evolving position.

I have one more question on this. Can I—? Thank you. How are you ensuring that Transport for Wales is an organisation that works as an integrated unit and not in silos?

I'll take that one, and feel free to add into this, Duncan, as we go. I think this is the way that the organisation has been established. From the very get-go, we've had an organisation that's focused on making sure that this is a collective. I think the example of adding bus franchising into that conversation really shows the integration. If the integration goes back to delivering for the travelling public at the start, and that's set up, you then end up with a situation where silos just can't exist. So, we're talking about integrated ticketing solutions, for example. If we are going to do that, we need to do that through the bus franchising work, and we need to do that through the TrawsCymru network provision, and we need to do it through the rail network.

So, there are actual examples that show that people are working really closely together. The leadership of Transport for Wales in particular is committed to making sure that silos don't exist. So, I think it's set itself up properly, and it's up to us to make sure that we're focusing on not the mode, because the mode is almost the unimportant thing. Rail, ultimately, is a hugely expensive part of Transport for Wales, but the customer cares about getting from A to B, and that's the critical thing we need to get right.

Thank you.

Diolch. Shav.

Minister, you're right in terms of the journey that Transport for Wales has been on. Just before the election, there was an official social partnership agreement that was signed with the trade unions. I think that really plays a big part in terms of the integration of buses, for example, but also how we engage with the public more widely. You are absolutely right to say that.

I think Leticia has touched on something that is really important, because, in terms of AI and transformation, there are also loads of risks in relation to all of this. I think that is an area that I would like to understand a bit more as it develops—what your thinking is around that, how are we protecting ourselves. And we have got some questions in terms of future preparedness that we will get to.

But my question specifically is around the construction industry. In the Construction Industry Training Board's outlook, they've estimated that, in Wales, we would need to recruit an average 1,240 additional construction workers each year. What assurance can you provide that Wales will have sufficient skilled workers to deliver projects such as the one you mentioned yesterday, Cardiff parkway, without skills shortages then leading to a delay in those projects?

I think this is really important. We've met with people from outside the organisation who have looked in and said, 'How do we get to deliver these things?' instead of someone like Network Rail, for example, if we take yesterday's example.

This is about making sure that the supply chains are in place. We know that some of these supply chains are already in place because of the work they've done on the core Valleys lines. But we also know that we need to build on that base for the future. I think this is linked across Government, with the skills audit that the Government has committed to do, to make sure that we've got the skills that are planned in now for the future. And again, referencing the point I made earlier, there's nothing in transport that's immediate. Everything in transport is long term, it seems, in terms of delivering changes. So, you need to make sure that we build that skills base in from now to be able to fulfil those responsibilities into the future.

I think there's a real requirement for us to see the way that engineering in particular has changed as an opportunity for people to work in as well. I think it's now something where we can attract more women into engineering jobs, which are highly technical, very well paid, and can make a real difference and bring a different perspective as well into that environment.

But I also want to pick up on the point you referenced about making sure that we engage with our union colleagues on issues like this. Some people will be aware of the tram-trains being delayed recently—it may be a question that comes up. When you dig into that, you realise that part of us making sure we get things right is working directly with the unions and sharing that information with full transparency—

And that actually led to a solution. It was the workers that came up with the solution.

Precisely—as it often is, Shav, I think. That's something that I think we'll be looking into. So, I think there's a lot of good experience. I've met all of the unions for Transport for Wales once. I'm meeting them again in a week or so's time. These are constructive meetings. We deal with issues, because issues do arise, but we deal with them in a way that I think the unions would also say—and I'm sure you get feedback through your routes—is very constructive and with the end purpose in mind. And I think just to finish—and this goes to the point that you just made about getting the right answers from the right people—that will benefit the people who are going to be travelling on these tram-trains in the future as well.

If I could just add a brief point. I think your point around the future is really important as well. TfW, in discussion with James and Vernon, as chief executive chair, is a really important part of that. I think, from memory, they have just shy of 200 apprentices currently live, 300 over five years. I think that's a real opportunity for TfW to lead from the front in those roles you've identified—engineering and construction. Because ultimately, as you've highlighted, they're going to be responsible for quite big parts of build. They can play a leading role in that as we go through and offer best practice for the supply chain more broadly. Often we forget that the supply chain for TfW is really deep and wide now. If that can transfer across, it does begin to make a real difference in those shortages that are economy-wide that the Government can target and work on.

I'm just going to add—sorry, it just made me think—that it's deep, wide and very Welsh as well. This is about maintaining the benefits of the work that we do within Wales, within people who are actually working on the project, to be able to spend their wages in Wales rather than it going elsewhere.

Da iawn. Diolch yn fawr. Sarah.

Good morning, Minister. This is about the Global Centre of Rail Excellence. Five years ago, a previous administration set up this rail testing centre. Since then, £50 million has been spent of taxpayers' money and nothing has been built. Is this project a failure? If so, is it true more taxpayers' money is going to be put at risk repurposing the site for a data centre?

Just before you come in, we will be focusing on GCRE in the coming weeks.

Sorry, that's my fault. I apologise.

Through the Chair, if I may, this is a responsibility that's gone to the Cabinet Minister for Enterprise, Connectivity and Energy. So, he's probably best placed to answer this question now. When I came into office, I felt that this was more of an economic decision rather than rail. Despite it being about rail, I think it's an economy decision. So, I think you're going to get a more accurate answer, rather than me talking to it, by taking it up with him in the next—. I know you've just had a session with him.

Yes, we have.

He will be joining us for that event.

Okay. So, if you don't mind, I'll give that one a swerve.

Not at all. Thank you, Minister.

It hasn't gone off track. Anything else?

That was it, that was my question.

Actually, we may as well touch on freight here. I think this is an opportune moment. Yes, John.

I have a question that could fit into several of the categories, but I'll put it in here if I may. Bearing in mind that we have international pressures on fuel prices—Strait of Hormuz, sanctions on Russia—and we also have issues with our own refineries, we've got a real crisis going on where diesel is at £2 per litre already and potentially going to go higher. A lot of our infrastructure is reliant on it, like Transport for Wales, we've got haulage operators, we've got school buses. The whole country could suddenly become basically insolvent based on fuel prices if we're not careful. What are you doing to prepare for that?

I think this is a really important question. There are a number of different issues here and I'll try and cover them all if I can. The first thing is that, with fuel policy and fuel pricing, the impact that can be genuinely made on this is at a UK level. So, the UK Government has the capability of being able to vary fuel duties and can actually make a direct difference to hauliers and others today. Those representations have been made. We think that that needs to happen.

I think we've also, then, got a number of really important—. I met with bus operators earlier this week at what can probably be described as a very urgently required meeting in relation to fuel prices. They've seen fuel prices go up by around 40 per cent to 45 per cent in a very short period of time. Their contracts don't enable them to be able to make these things work. They're often SMEs that are within all of the constituencies that are represented in this room. They employ small numbers of people who are highly committed to those organisations. They run essential services—not only the bus routes, but they also run our learner travel routes. So, we have a real issue at play that we're engaging with that audience on at the moment. We want the UK Government to act, but we also want to make sure that, where we can, we can make sure that the services are supported.

The key concern to me, frankly, the immediate concern, is learner travel, because we want to make sure—. We know the impact of when COVID stopped our learners from getting to school. We need to be making sure that that's top of our list. So, I'm working across other Government ministries, obviously, because I may be responsible for dealing with the buses, but the funding is through local government and the education element is obviously in another area. So, this is an example of where this Government is making sure that we're working collectively on trying to resolve some of those issues. That's my key concern.

The hauliers have hedged their fuel at the moment, and Transport for Wales also hedged their fuel, and they were able to hedge into this position we're in at the moment. I don't have a crystal ball to know when the President of the United States is going to make things better, and it worries me that these things are completely out of our direct control. But what we've made sure of is that we have ongoing dialogue. The conversation with the bus operators was at my insistence as a result of the price rises. And I think if you were to speak to them—and they are in your constituencies, so I urge you to speak to bus operators—you'll find that they feel very listened to at the moment. The opportunity now is to see how we can support them.

Thank you.

Alun and then Shav.

In terms of learner travel, I know that the Government is reviewing the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Can you outline some of the thinking that you're developing in terms of that? Our collective experience is that we have a situation where learners are desperate to use buses, and the reality is that we're losing people from that system, and that affects us all. Congestion is then the outcome of the decisions taken at a local government level to restrict home-to-school transport in particular. So, I'm looking to understand where we're going on that and whether there is some light there in terms of dealing with a number of issues that affect our daily lives.

Thank you for the question. I think the complexity of the question indicates the complexity of the issue. People think that Menai and the M4 is the most difficult thing on my agenda; I can assure you that the most difficult thing on my agenda is learner travel, and I mean that sincerely, because I don't think that this is an easily resolvable issue.

We focused on three particular areas. We focused on Welsh language provision. At the moment, it's very difficult. Because of the way things work, it becomes very difficult for people who want to have their education through the medium of Welsh. Sometimes, they're disadvantaged because of the way that the learner travel arrangements work. We have started that review, which was in our first 100 days; that review has begun to look at how that may change.

I will probably leave the trickiest one until the last. You've then got post-16 education. My biggest reflection on this is that this is the most important time in a young person's life. This is where they choose what they're going to be, to some extent, as they move into adulthood. The biggest concern I have is that our learner travel arrangement may dissuade them from doing something they really want to do, and if they're doing something they didn't choose to do at the very start, that's a detriment to their future career prospects and their future lives and their happiness, broadly, because they'll be doing the wrong thing.

The biggest, toughest part of this is the ALN transport provision. I have personal experience of this as well—my youngest grandson now has a taxi to go to school. I see what this actually entails. It links into the fuel issue we just talked about. So, the contracts for these taxis that are delivering young children to school, their concerns about making that work are huge; it's a huge figure. I think the answer to this is going to be Government working together on this.

And if I can be very trite, and it isn't meant to be, I think the learner needs to be at the front of all of these conversations. Once we get that right, then other decisions can fall from that. But I think we need to make sure that whether it's Welsh language, whether it's ALN, or whether it's post-16 education, we're focusing on the learner first, because then that'll travel through everything else that we want to do, whether it's productivity or all of the other things that matter to us as a country as well. But I think this is a huge issue and something that keeps me up at night. Thank you.

Shav.

So, it feels like every time you put your telly on or look at your phone, there's somebody telling you to buy a torch or to buy a battery or buy some extra water and put it in your loft because something big is going to happen, which then leads me, I guess, to national security and our preparedness for this. And I also say this because, again, when we had different stakeholders in, it was a topic that came up around the table that Janet and I were around.

So, I guess my question is: how prepared is Wales's rail network for a national security crisis—potentially we're going to have some test runs come next year—including the need to move freight? And do you think that we have the necessary infrastructure, but also our operating flexibility to then rapidly increase rail freight capacity, including moving passengers at the same time as well? So, these were the things that came up in some of the conversations. And I'm not expecting you to answer fully at this moment—you can come back to this—but I think that this is an important one for us to consider.

I think it's really important. So, you're talking about national emergencies that can come from a number of different threats.

Yes. From lots of different things, yes.

I think that this is probably a conversation that you'll be having with the First Minister, and resilience is one of his responsibilities in Government. But then that obviously cascades down to my responsibilities, and my responsibilities aren't just for rail, they're obviously for roads, the strategic road network, the rail network, and making sure that we keep things moving when things would be tough.

And I think we've had some examples of that this summer; I think we've had examples of that due to the high heat, and I think we're now in a new normal that things have changed for that. We've got a conversation with Transport for Wales—Duncan can come in in a second—talking about their preparedness for this from a passenger perspective. I think the point about freight is well made. We've had examples in this country of where we had a problem with Holyhead port two years ago. I was in Ireland three weeks ago, meeting the Minister of State at the Department of Transport in Ireland to discuss this very issue about how we build our preparedness, because the one thing that isn't going to change is, you know, I can guarantee—. I'm not a weatherman, and Derek has left the weather service, hasn't he? [Laughter.] I can guarantee there will be storms that will cause the same problems this winter as there were last. Our resilience needs to be tested.

I think you talked about us having exercises. I've kicked off—and it's early in the process, and I'd like to come back to this committee to talk about it—an exercise to test the resilience of the Irish sea if we had another event. And when you go to Fishguard, you see the work they're doing on some of these things to be able to change the shipping lanes. But some of these things are reserved. So, I can't direct, as transport Minister, ferries to go to different places; the UK Government can. It's about making sure we know who's got the responsibility and have those clear linkages. This is critical. Sorry, you were going to—

I was just going to say that in terms of TfW itself, where we have got responsibility—

I think there are a couple of—. It's an absolutely key point that we're all actively considering every day, because the climate is changing around us. I guess resilience comes at a number of levels. The things that we can do right here and now are the really practical things, like, I was in discussion with James the other day and, for example, the roofs of trains are painted black, so in hot, sunny weather, that straight away creates an issue. Paint them white and you take that away. Some of the trains that we currently have operating, which are due to be renewed, can't operate at, I think it's 26 degrees. And then, before long, we'll be into a position where the line at Hereford's got flooding issues or whatever else. So, I think there are a number of layers to this question, and you're right to highlight it as an ongoing consideration.

There is a real focus now on the things we can do immediately, and actions and take charge, and then there's a real strategic look through the exercises that Mark's mentioned, thinking about what we need to do for the medium to long term as well. So, yes, I agree with you, it's an area of real focus at the moment.

Can I just—? It's an area of focus and genuine interest as well, because I think, when I was in Ireland, the one thing that I noticed was that the impact on the Irish economy in terms of what happened in Holyhead was huge.

Massive.

We didn't see that here as much as they did over there, and I think that being able to go there and have those conversations was really, really important.

And that's an interesting one where Welsh and UK Governments have supported Stena Line to fund the rebuilding of the breakwater at Holyhead, because, in effect, a ferry crashed into the port there. So, how do you change that? We'll create smoother conditions. So, there are pragmatic actions that we can take as part of this change.

So, there's some muscle memory there that we can build on.

I think so, yes.

Well, I think that leads neatly on, talking about Ireland and Dublin and Holyhead, to the important announcements made yesterday—one of them, of course, being about the Menai crossing—talking about resilience and the economic effects it has on Wales and Ireland. Would you like to expand perhaps on yesterday's announcement in terms of that and perhaps the next steps and timescale?

Yes, okay. Diolch for that. So this, I think, was—. When I came into office, we immediately took on probably the two big issues that are affecting Wales from a transport perspective at the moment. So, we took on the M4 and Newport—I think we need to make it clear that this is not just the M4; this is Newport as well—and also the crossings between the mainland and Ynys Môn. Both of those have been long-term issues that have not been addressed previously, and I wanted to make sure that we went ahead and looked for an action—how do we make action happen? The officials were hugely supportive in terms of getting to a place where we were able to review what had been done in the past. Because people often complain about reports being left on shelves gathering dust, well, we dusted off a lot of those reports, because it's good work, it tells you what you need to do, and we've gone ahead and looked at starting to do that.

Some of this is tough stuff as well. Menai, I think, is a straightforward issue of resilience. We have one road—. The new road in Menai is 175 years old. The old road has just turned 200. So, we've got infrastructure that was built for the horse and cart; it wasn't built for the modern era. From an issue of pure resilience, we have to connect those two parts of Wales. It's important that we get ahead and do it. So, the announcement yesterday was this Government making it clear that we are absolutely committed to the delivery of that crossing.

That comes with work, and the work has started immediately, and that's the development work associated, before you get to the position where you start building the asset. I heard concerns from people yesterday, saying, 'Should this be quicker?' It will be quick, but it will be right. I think that's the right thing.

I think one of the things—and I said this yesterday in the Siambr, and I'll repeat it again now—that I was looking for, and I think we got yesterday, was a collective agreement that this is the appropriate thing to do. I understand that it needs to go through other processes and that this isn't a done deal today. But, ultimately, this is about making sure that we have a resilient connection between the two bits of Wales.

And in terms of funding, especially the Menai proposal—. Obviously it's a new road, linking into Ireland. In terms of its wider impact, and just the immediate economy, and in terms of funding, will all those options be considered and discussions pursued to maximise—?

Yes, you've picked up some of the answers to the exam question, I think. But I think the starting point of it all is to make sure that you have something that you know how you're going to do it, what it's going to cost. You clarify all those other points.

One of the things that I find we absolutely need to do—. You can't invest in something that doesn't exist as a plan. We have to do that planning work. Some of it has been done previously. So, the route that's there, and is probably going to be the preferred route, is a protected route. So, those things help, unlike on the M4, where the black route, which some Members here have called for before, no longer exists as a route that can be delivered, whereas the route over to the Menai does exist as a route. So, that helps with that.

In terms of funding specifically—and you made the point—this is a key strategic route, not just between Wales and Ireland, but the European Union and mainland UK. This is something that's really important we get right.

Can I bring in Janet—a north Wales Member, of course—who is online? Janet.

Thank you, Mark. I'm just sorry I couldn't be with you yesterday. I would have loved to have been in the Chamber, on the Menai third crossing in particular, but also in my shadow ministerial role on the M4 and everything, and good luck with that one.

But as regards the Menai crossing, I think you've taken a very sensible approach, personally, with the investment that is coming online from the UK Government in terms of Wylfa, Gwyndod. We've got Morlais over there. We've got the free port. I would like to think that the UK Government would see the reasons to help fund this. And when we had the public meeting that was attended cross-party, it was the overwhelming opinion of the many people who were there that, really, the UK Government have to step up and support the Welsh Government with the funding of the Menai crossing. And I certainly will be writing to the UK Government to ensure that they realise their own responsibilities on this.

Thank you, Janet. If there was a question there, apart from saying thank you for your support, I agree with you that the UK Government will be one of those key parties in any conversations about funding. Diolch yn fawr.

Shav and then Tom.

So, my question, really, is about the M4, and going back to the CJCs and councils. There's the 18-month plan, and then there's the five-year implementation plan. Councils have said—it's been said again and again in the Chamber by various different people—about the fact that they are unhappy about some of the closures of the junctions and so forth. Have you conducted an impact assessment? How are those conversations going? You sort of touched on them, Minister, earlier.

Yes.

They are going to be tricky conversations. But what does that look like in reality?

So, it's really important that the work on the M4 is split into probably the—. We split it into parts as well, which I think is worth us just touching on, if I may. The first part is this 18-month programme to make sure that we reflect what needs to happen over the long term. So, that will be considering bigger projects, and maybe the funding that we may require—in the same way as the point was just made on Menai—requires others to come in and support it—the UK Government in particular, and others, frankly, in terms of the way you might put together those bigger packages.

But the second part—and I think this is the critical part of it—is also making sure that we've got things that we can action now that can make a real tangible difference to how the M4 works. But, as I said at the very start, I think this needs to be characterised not just as an M4 issue, but as a Newport issue. And one of the things that strikes me is that people are concerned about junction closures, but the reflection that I have on this is that the system doesn't work effectively today. The Newport transport system doesn't work effectively today. That's why doing nothing is not an option. That's why I'm committed to working with councils, not just Newport City Council, but also Caerphilly council, Torfaen council, Cardiff Council as well. These impacts—. It's a close-knit area, and it's making sure we get in there and understand those concerns, and provide practical mitigation to make sure that we can alleviate some of the problems.

But one of the things that was clear from the report—absolutely clear—is that doing nothing today isn't an option. We can do the work, the 18-month work. If we sat here and didn't do the things that will make a real difference, then that would be wrong from us. And I think that's probably—. The reflection I have is we're about to look at taking 10 per cent of the traffic off the M4, and it's going to different places, so that isn't, 'It's going into Newport.' This is going onto rail and things like that. We've had 27 years of not doing that sufficiently. I think a number of Members from your party would also agree with me on that, and we need to now build some consensus that we make progress.

I think where there may be some differences, and there'll be some interesting differences on the 18-month programme—. Making sure we can deliver change to the people in that area and make the whole system work better is my priority.

And there'll be an impact assessment, obviously, then.

All of those. So, there's a process. And I think one of the things yesterday—. I hope Members and the general public realise that this was done in the full light of day. We intended this to be transparent. We published the Arup report, which is the thing that, actually, we utilised for this study. And I want to continue with that as well. This this hasn't got a different Lord's name on it. This is about me taking responsibility and the Welsh Government taking responsibility for what we're doing.

With full engagement with the councils.

Absolutely.

Diolch. Tom.

Thank you, Chair. I want to touch on the Menai crossing and then switch to the M4, if that's okay, Minister. Just quickly on the Menai crossing, in your statement you very kindly outlined that you're going to do 18-months-worth of planning for the M4 and all the different tasks that you're going to undertake there. Forgive me if I missed it, but I didn't see a same commitment to a timeline for the work you're going to do on the Menai crossing, with the assessments and the design work that you're going to do on that. Can you give me an indication of when you think that's going to be wrapped up? Is it going to be a year, two years? Is it going to be this term? Do you have a rough ballpark of when you want that work done?

I'll ask Alison, maybe, to help in a second, just in terms of the broader time, but just as a start, we've highlighted that from start to finish will take somewhere between eight and 10 years, and the process that we're going through is now building that project plan to make sure we know what will happen when. So, some of the answers we may not have today, but we're happy to come back and talk about those in detail. This is the start of a project to deliver a bridge. So, this isn't a project to consider options now. We've concluded what the option is for the Menai from the Government's perspective. It's about making sure that that can happen. I don't know whether, Alison, you've got anything to add on the timeline?

Yes, just that on the third Menai crossing, the development work is over three to five years. So, that's the design, appraisal, environmental work and statutory consents leading up to the construction in eight to 10 years. So, that's the whole period of that programme. Of course, there's work to be done now in terms of resilience on the crossings. So, that work will continue. So, there's funding earmarked for resilience measures, including wind deflectors, variable speed limits on Britannia bridge. So, it's not about just the future work, but, of course, we're making it as resilient as we possibly can now.

I appreciate there's a programme of work going on now; I do recognise and welcome that. But you were saying it's going to take three to five years to complete the design and the assessment stuff that you announced yesterday in the statement. That was my understanding—three to five years.

Yes, and, of course, there is previous work that has been done, so we can, obviously, build on that work and, hopefully, try and condense the timescales as much as possible. But, of course, there are processes that we need to go through.

The part that alarms me, then, is that, if we compare it to the M4, where, like the Minister says, you're kind of starting, not quite from scratch, but you've got a lot more thinking work to do because certain routes now aren't protected routes, whereas the Menai crossing, you've got a protected route, but somehow you're going to do the M4 thinking time in 18 months, but the Menai one is going to be three to five years.

Can I jump in? Sorry. So, the thinking time, this isn't about thinking time for the Menai—the thinking has been done. This is about the process to deliver the bridge, and that does take time, because part of that—and we've already had the question about where the funding comes from, so that'll be part of that process as well—will be about getting the contractors, making sure you've got the contractors who can deliver the bridge and how you maintain social value in these things as well. There's a lot of work that is required.

So, the three to five-year timetable is something that, where we can accelerate, we will, but some of these things are almost impossible to accelerate. What we got yesterday—. I spoke to both leaders of Gwynedd and Anglesey councils, who were both extremely supportive and offered to put their muscle behind this project to make sure that the work that they need to do as part of this is accelerated. So, we have got a bit of a team Wales approach, and I'm testing the water here, but it feels like we've got that on a cross-party basis, which helps, because then, when you have a conversation with the UK Government about funding, if we had that, it's not just Plaid Cymru saying, 'We want the funding', it's the lot of us.

Yes, sure. Okay.

It's quite an early phase in development, though, as well, so I think, picking up your earlier theme, we want the right investible proposition for the Menai crossing so that parties can come. There is a tension, as Alison was mentioning, between the pure engineering solutions and the requirements of the Welsh transport appraisal guidance and the rest, and the need to pursue. So, just like Mark has spoken to leaders, I was also speaking to the chief exec of Anglesey, and clearly that was a key question for him in terms of, 'What does this look and feel like?' But I think, just to reiterate, this is the solution being developed, as opposed to the M4 piece, which is a look at all the options. So, it is really a focused piece of work, which I'm sure you'll be asking future questions about when we come back next.

But the M4 would require this—. So, if there was a decision made on the M4 based on the options, then there would be a further time period that goes after that before you get to the point where you get something starting to be built.

Okay. I appreciate that, and thank you for the clarity. It's really useful. So, switching to the M4, I wanted to explore one of the options that you're looking at as part of the five-year work that you're looking to get on with pretty quickly, and that was using the Heads of the Valleys road. My understanding is that you're looking at spending something like £49 million to encourage freight traffic up there. I wanted to try and understand the methodology behind that thought, because if you use the Heads of the Valleys road to bypass the M4, you only get so far and then you have to turn south again and rejoin the M4 in Newport, which is the exact spot that we're trying to avoid freight traffic going through. If you're trying to encourage freight traffic to not do that, and instead turn north-east and go up the M50, they can do that, but you're adding 30 miles to 35 miles to the journey. If you're travelling from Pembroke Dock to Dover, as that sort of land bridge, then you're adding 30 miles to 35 miles to the driver's journey and about 45 minutes. I wanted to understand the methodology of how we think we're going to get freight drivers to do that.

It's a really important question, and it's probably the reason that we've only put 1 per cent in there as the target at the moment, because there will be some traffic that the current route is where they need to do it. So, we're looking at traffic that's going elsewhere. On my trip to Ireland, I met a freight operator there who has a base in the English midlands, and the A465 is a great route for them to be able to utilise to get there. So, this is about horses for courses. One of the things that I think this feeds into—and this is a perspective that's shared by the Road Haulage Association; it's shared by the Irish Road Haulage Association—is that Wales and the rest of the UK has, I say poor, but mostly non-existent, welfare truck stops for HGV drivers. We treat these people as unprofessionally and discourteously as possible at the moment. They're parking in our lay-bys, they're parking in our shopping centres, they're parking on our roads. They're doing that in really vulnerable conditions. So, part of the answer is about providing facilities for them to stop at. So, one of the things—. If you're a driver of a HGV and you need to stop, you want to stop somewhere where there's a washing machine so you can wash your stuff, where there's a bed that's not the cab as well that you might want to go and sleep in, and also somewhere where you can spend money locally on a good meal and be ready for your next trip.

So, part of this is about us providing some sort of opportunity to attract people to that space, and it fits in as well with the opportunity to decarbonise. So, we can put facilities there to charge HGVs as well, so superfast charging that can also be used by the local communities. And when you start looking at where the notspots are for some of our charging infrastructure, it actually matches that A465. So, we've got a real opportunity. We've spoken to the Cardiff city region corporate joint committee and they're really committed to seeing how we get these opportunities to be built in.

I think we've underplayed the 1 per cent, but part of that is about getting on and doing it. I think that—. I remember, this was an old thing, but—. So, Mike Hedges, a long time ago, said in the Senedd, 'Well, why don't you just put up signs that say, "It's quicker to go this way and this way and this way?"' Well, we can do some of that. That's part of the answer, which is relatively simple.

That's useful. I appreciate what you're saying about underplaying the 1 per cent because I think—

I'm not adding to it now, don't worry. [Laughter.]

But I think you can accept that Members probably read that and thought, 'What, we're spending £50 million for a 1 per cent decrease?' It seems like a lot of money for not a lot of traffic change. But I suppose if your methodology is that you're trying to connect Pembrokeshire and the ports down there to the midlands more, then I can see that methodology better than trying to sort of alter the route of the land bridge of people that are trying to get to London and Dover. So, is that the methodology that you're thinking of—connecting the midlands of England more to the freight traffic there?

That's exactly it. And if I can just take you to task on what—. One per cent of the traffic that goes through the M4 in 2042 is a huge figure, so we should be really careful. So, we're talking about a 10 per cent improvement with this five-year plan. And to be honest, that's a figure that we've managed to get people to feel relatively comfortable with. So, there's an upside to that as well, to my mind, but I'm happy to stick with 10 per cent. But I think these are magnitude differences that have been achieved over the point until now. So, I think this is—. We should not underplay that, is probably—

Yes, and I appreciate what you're saying—1 per cent equals x thousand car journeys, but it's still sort of justifying that to the taxpayer, because £50 million is equally a massive number. But I appreciate what you're saying, Minister. Thank you.

Diolch, Tom.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr. Obviously, those are big projects, big announcements and are very important strategically. In the meanwhile, we've still got a large road network that needs upgrading and—well, basically, it needs to be up to standard condition-wise. What steps have been planned to meet the commitment to ensure the existing roads are up to standard and meet our requirements?

This is probably another question that keeps me up at night. And it's because we, I think, have collectively failed to take decent enough care over the term of this Government—and, frankly, before that—of our strategic road network. And that's about—. This is probably one of the single biggest assets on the Welsh Government's books and it therefore deserves us to be able to take care of it, as you would any other asset.

We have budgeted—and this is a budget that's over the next three-year capital period—to invest in our strategic road network and to make sure that we do the things that are most pressing first. So, prioritising what needs to be done first is part of it. I spoke about it yesterday; I talked about the Malpas viaduct on the M4. This is an area that requires attention. It will cause some disruption and, I think, you know—. I was—. It's probably something that previous transport Ministers and previous First Ministers have shied away from making decisions on that would cause that disruption, but ultimately, we've got—and I've reflected on this—a traffic jam that's called the Brynglas tunnels. It's got a name. If I don't solve, and we don't collectively solve, some of these maintenance issues, we will have another named traffic jam in the future.

This is practical, sensible and very real work that we need to do. It's not exciting, it's not the things that necessarily will get the headlines, not for the good reasons, but I hope this committee reflects on those particular issues. And as we get into this maintenance programme, I'd welcome some significant scrutiny on this, because I think that shows the seriousness of the stuff we're dealing with, rather than it just being about, 'We need a brand-new bit of tarmac here.' We need to take care of the asset that we've got.

Thank you. And no doubt we'll keep you under scrutiny.

I'd like that, Elwyn. I want that, because I think this is something that this committee can get into detail on that you can't do in the Siambr.

Yes, exactly. Can I bring Alun in, and then Kiera?

It's almost an observation rather than a question, and I apologise in advance. Everything you've said in terms of both the difficulties that we face in terms of road transport, and the opportunities—I wonder whether you can reflect on some of the criticisms that you've faced in terms of 'a war on motorists' and whether you feel that that is fair.

I'll take it as a comment. So, I'll tell you what—. I'll answer that question how I've answered it currently, because I get asked the question a lot. I think that what we need is a transport system that actually works. So, one of the basic tenets of us doing our job is to have something that works and is reliable, whether that's buses, whether that's trains, or whether that's our road system. And that isn't easy. None of this is—. This is a portfolio where I spend a lot of money, and I need to be doing that in a way that actually makes a difference. So, I think that, across the piece, I have a responsibility, however people travel.

One of the things that's struck me most since I've been in post is that there are people who do not drive who are not party to that conversation. I had a meeting with the Royal National Institute of Blind People, and it was during one of the hot spells, and the woman who came to that meeting explained her journey from mid Wales. It started with having to leave her guide dog at home, because it was over the temperature to use her guide dog. She had to cross the A470, without a crossing, without a guide dog, to get to the bus stop on the other side of the road. She said that's the first point where she felt she needed to turn back rather than come to the meeting, and not play a part in influencing me about these things that said very much about her journey. She then explained the rest of it, and it just becomes issue after issue after issue. And whether it's blind people, people who are neurodivergent, there are lots of issues that I want to make sure that, as we work through these, we get that right. And that, I think, will make life better for everyone, if we get some of these issues right. But I do not have a war on motorists.

Thank you. Tom, did you want to come in on that point?

I'll let Kiera come in, and then I'll come in.

Okay. Kiera.

Thank you. We've been talking about some quite big infrastructure issues and so on, so I wanted to focus on something a little bit smaller. I'll start by noting that there's no comprehensive estimate of local authority road condition. You'll have seen that the mayor of New York, Zohran Mamdani, has made it quite a central piece of his administration to focus on delivering on really small things like potholes. He's noted that these small concerns are really important to people—it shows that government cares about your street or your local community. I was wondering if you have any reflections on how Welsh Government could work with local authorities to actually speed up the delivering of these really small things that do matter to people and give them pride in their community.

I think it's really important. When people open their curtains, the things they see are the things that they then reflect on. If they have a bad start to the day, whatever it is, whether it's bins not being collected or potholes, that's what they reflect on. I think that there's a lot of innovation in this, particularly when it comes to potholes, which I think is a key thing. There is a lot of innovation, and a lot of that innovation is happening in our local authorities. I think my role, then, is to try and make sure that we can pass on what works really well, and make sure we accelerate some of those opportunities.

Now, I talked earlier—. We were asked the question about how the regional transport fund works, and part of that is, at a level, the decisions need to be made locally, the priorities need to be made locally. I think there are some key issues across the piece. But we've got a situation where we're expecting our weather to become increasingly variable. We will have more potholes because of the way that the weather conditions are changing. There will be heavier rainfall, which will get under the road surface, and then break open when the frost comes in. But I think the answers are out there. Duncan might want to answer this, but I think we've got a responsibility to help people to learn from the best, and some of the best are in Wales.

I think it's a really fair point. So, I'm two and a half months into being transport director, and it's the one thing everyone asks me about in the pub, 'When are you fixing the potholes?' So, I totally empathise with the situation. I think—

Can I just say I don't get a chance to go to the pub?

Thanks for that. You just threw me under the bus there, Minister. [Laughter.]

So, in answer to your question, I think we absolutely recognise this as a key objective. Mark mentioned earlier, on the major assets side—and don't forget those come through many of our communities, the A483, the A470—that that programme of work is there. The work that Alison leads on, the local transport fund, actually, the first phase of that is about to close—at the end of this month, I think, Alison? So, the application process, we will see—we expect that to be a part of that application, and that area. I think, again, in the engagement we do with CJCs and local government, this does come up as a recurring issue. The challenge, of course, is finding the right amount of funding to fix the major problems all the time; it's an ever-present. As mentioned, the weather's changing. This is becoming an increasing pressure for us to manage and deal with and prioritise.

Just on the regional transport fund, we moved to this new approach this financial year. It allows local authorities to bid longer term and they have more ownership of their programmes. They understand where the investment is needed in their areas. So, we've moved from a process where we had a number of individual grant funding streams to a consolidated regional transport fund. So, they should be able to prioritise through that process what they need to be done most in their area in terms of transport investment. And as Duncan said, they're sending their draft programmes for next year, the next financial year, in—. Well, later this month, actually.

Tom.

Thanks, Chair. I'm going to have to take Alun's bait, I'm afraid. [Laughter.] I was trying to will myself on not to, but I'm going to have to take it. I think a lot of this comes down to the image and the messaging that comes from the Government, Minister. The story that you just told us about the lady who couldn't bring a guide dog out—I don't think there are any of us here who wouldn't support the idea of creating a transport system that works for that lady. I think any system that can empower more people to get to where they want to be is good.

I think where the image of a war on motorists comes from is parts of Wales where public transport is not a viable alternative for people yet, whether it doesn't work for their work patterns, whether it doesn't work for their lifestyle, or whether it doesn't work for a variety of different reasons. And what I feel, and what people that I speak to say they feel, is that instead of their bus services becoming more usable for them, instead of the trains being more reliable and affordable for them, they feel instead that the Government is trying to use the stick to force them off the road. So, they see their speed limits coming down. They see their potholes aren't being filled. They see, whenever a major road network is upgraded, it's to take a lane of traffic away to put a cycle track on it. That's where the idea that people get, that the Welsh Government—previous to yourselves—had a war on motorists comes from.

So, I totally accept what you're saying. The passion that you have, Minister, for creating a more inclusive transport network clearly comes through and I totally buy into that. But I think there are parts of Wales where constituents of mine particularly do absolutely feel that—they feel that they're being pushed off the road instead of being given a viable alternative to use. So, I'm trying to be consensual there the best I can.

We'll let the Minister respond.

Yes. And then I want to come back on what I actually wanted to ask you about.

Okay. I'll be very brief. I think some of the answers are going to be about delivery. We talked about—. Bus franchising is a really important part of that. It's making sure that we as the—. Instead of the market providing inadequately for bus services, we can start defining where those bus services should be that suit the communities that we are.

I'm going to take you on on the 20 mph. We had a debate on 20 miles an hour the other day. I think that, when we talk about speed limits being a disadvantage, we need to look at it in the round and we need to look at it in terms of safety, particularly children's safety. This is something that I remain supportive of. I think that we've got to make sure that safety is one of the important responsibilities, and I think you'd agree with the safety perspective as a starting point. We need to follow the evidence on that, which I think is becoming clearer.

I also—. Just on how we communicate things, I think there has been a mistake in the past, where we've just told people, 'You have to change the way that you travel.' And I think, in some of our communities, that wasn't the right message to do. It's not the way that you'll hear me communicate, and I've not done that since I've started. But it is something that we've got to—. I am committed to modal shift, but it's in a way that—. We have to deliver the public transport options that work. That's the critical thing. I can't be telling people, 'You need to change what you're doing', and then not give them options that are viable and comfortable. We've got a north-south coach service. I went on the coach. It's like being on a first-class carriage on a train; it's that comfortable. We need our services to be as good as they are in many modern European cities. We need them to be that good.

Thank you, Minister. I just couldn't leave Alun's bait there—I had to take it—but I appreciate the response. What I did actually want to ask about regarding highway maintenance is touching on what Kiera talked about a bit there. We're talking about a strategic road network that has £1.4 billion-worth of backlog, compounded with an estimate for local authorities of about £1.7 billion. Now, I've spoken about it in the Chamber before. I'm seriously concerned about the debt levels that local authorities are taking. I want to know what—. I suppose it's more of a plea to you, really, than a question. What conversations have you had with the other Cabinet Ministers in finance and local government about how you support local authorities to clear that backlog without just going into debt?

Because in Conwy—. When I left Conwy, there was something like £230 million-worth of unsecured debt. Financing their debt was the third or fourth most expensive budget line the council had. And I'm really concerned that unless we find an effective financial model to help clear that backlog, councils are going to start putting really significant infrastructure projects on debt. With where the interest rates are going and the market's going, I think it could be the breaking of councils. So, it's more of a plea to you than a question, but—.

Okay. So, finance isn't my—. I'm responsible for transport, but I used to be a local authority councillor, so I understand the point you're making. I think that when you talk about the fourth or fifth biggest line, it's behind the other lines, which take up 50 per cent, of social care and education. So, when we're actually talking about the elements of it, we need to reflect that it might be the fourth or fifth biggest, but there are some huge sections at the top of that list before we get down to it.

I think there's a couple of things to mention, and it came out—. There was a debate on a motion yesterday evening that passed about a fiscal framework for Wales, and making sure that we have the money to do our job. Part of that was about making sure that we can finance the stuff we need to do. And as a professional accountant, which is what I did qualify as many years ago, despite not liking being an accountant, one of the things that I recognise is that when you take—. Investment is the way I would look at what we're doing, and you need to invest in the right places. And I think that the strategic road network and the local authority network are something, as we've heard from people's concerns, we really need to be investing in.

There are two reasons for that. One is because it makes things work, and I think things could work better. I'm not going to mischaracterise it and say things don't work at the moment, because I don't think that's true, but they could work better. And the second thing is probably paramount to my—. Again, it's something that keeps me up. I've got a chief engineer who is there to advise me on the safety of our infrastructure, and, when he speaks, I listen, because if I don't I'll end up in jail, probably. So, it's really important we get these things right and we invest in the right places.

But I think the answer to your question is making sure that we prioritise those investments properly, we do it from a position of evidence and strength of evidence, and we do it with transparency as well. So, again, this is why I ask for this committee to take a particular interest in the major asset renewals, because, obviously, it's a big figure. The backlog is huge, as you evidenced, but I think it's right to be able to make a challenge to me as to whether we're doing the right things that make the best of what do.

And I totally accept that. I totally accept that this is investment that needs to be made. It's important that we maintain our road network, whether that's at the strategic level or at the local authority level, but it's just doing it in a way that isn't going to indebt councils who are then going to struggle to continue to make those financing payments.

No doubt this will be an issue we'll come back to over the coming months, I think.

Yes. But thank you.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr. Can we move on to railways, because that's a huge field of responsibility also? Perhaps we'll deal with the strategic element of railways first, rather than the second part, on actual services and things. We've got the Railways Bill at the moment. That's one big thing. There's an issue about negotiations with the UK Government in relation to that. And, of course, the other thing is the long-promised £14 billion from the UK Government towards capital investment in rail in Wales. There was a reference to it yesterday by the Cabinet Minister for Finance. Where are we in actually seeing the colour of the money?

Let's deal with the first question, about the Railways Bill. We are still in negotiations with the Department for Transport over the Railways Bill and how that best suits the interests of Wales. I think those negotiations can be characterised as being positive and constructive. When I've met the rail Minister in the UK, we've both left those conversations feeling like we're making some significant progress. Those conversations have also been attended by the Secretary of State for Wales. The person did change in two of them, as you may be aware, but they were actively supported as well. You've got to take things as I see them, and my reflection is that we are dealing with things that are quite complex. As they first stood, I wouldn't have recommended that the Senedd agree to the legislative consent motion, but we are moving, I think, in a way that will, hopefully, get us to a point where I would like to be able to recommend it. We're still some way off, but we are moving.

I think that part of it is then getting into the practical stuff that's come on the back of that. Yesterday I announced, which was almost—. It feels like an aside, but for me it was a really important thing. When we talk about the Burns stations, Transport for Wales are going to be building the Burns stations. This is about us putting—. This is maintaining that economic benefit in Wales, which I think everyone would be pleased with, but it's also about moving quicker, because Transport for Wales have only got Wales. I know they've got a bit at the borders, but it's Wales they care about. It's Wales that they're responsible for, so we can actually get those supply chains moving really quickly.

That links me into the £14 billion. Again, if I take it just on the words, in the meetings I've had with the Department for Transport, and the meetings that were being attended by the two Secretaries of State, the £14 billion has been consistently supported and reiterated. So, we're in a position where I can't expect anything more. It is absolute. Part of me trying to help that is the Transport for Wales vision document, which is something that I've endorsed in full. That was done in the previous administration by Transport for Wales. There are two reasons for that. One reason that we talked about, I think, is that transport is strategic, so you can't keep flitting and changing between things. The second reason is it's a really good document. It's good. It actually does the job that I think Wales needs from a rail perspective.

But we've been underinvested in rail from a capital perspective to a degree that is a disgrace, I think, and the people of Wales need to see that improvement happen. I'd encourage all parties in the Senedd to support that position, because we've proven, when we've got responsibility for rail on the core Valleys lines, we can make a difference. We need to do that across the whole of Wales. It's not just Cardiff that needs to benefit; we need to do it across the whole country. We've put a specific ask in this year. Elin has written to John Healey, the Chancellor, requesting that £1 billion is put into this spending review so we can move on the Burns stations in particular. If you could, as a committee, be another supporter to that as well, that would be a help.

Thank you. I'm sure we'll take that on board. We'll discuss it later, but I'm sure it would be the sort of thing we could have a consensus on, hopefully. Alun, did you want to come in?

To follow up on that, I think you've been incredibly bullish in terms of that £14 billion—and, strategically, I think that's the right thing to do, to assume that those words are real. What we have, though, is history of decades and decades of underinvestment in our rail system. I think it is now time for the UK Government to up the ante on that. You talked about that extra £1 billion, and I understand that that letter has only just gone to the Government, but I guess that has been flagged in those discussions. I wonder whether you can give us any flavour—whether you can or not, I'm not sure—of whether that was an immediate, 'No', an immediate, 'Yes', or an immediate, 'Yes, that's interesting, I think we can think about those areas.' The follow-on from that is what modelling you would do if that commitment isn't there from the UK Government to bring that money within this spending review, and how that affects the timescales.

It's really important that we get this money. It's important to the statement I made yesterday. The delivery of the Burns stations is dependent on the money coming through and some of that money being directed directly to Transport for Wales to do the work they need to do. It helps us accelerate getting things done. If you put the passenger and the future passenger at the heart of what you do, it's really important we get this across the line. The conversations are engaged with the UK Government. We, I think, have a really rock-solid case. If you were John Healey and looking at what you've got, what he needs to do is to make sure that, when he puts money in different places, we've got the projects to be able to do it. We've got that pipeline of projects. We know what we want to do. We know how quickly we want to do it. We have the supply chains ready to be able to get there and do it. So, we've done the things that are on our side. I was slightly taken aback, disappointed—I don't know whether that's the right word—when Stephen Kinnock the other day at the end of his conference speech at the Labour Party conference said that Wales wasn't ready for these things. Let's be absolutely clear: this department is ready to make good on those commitments. It's doing it for a reason that will make a genuine difference to people. I hope that message has clearly been landed with the Treasury. I'm hopeful that this comes through. I don't know if there's anything to add, Duncan.

I think there are two elements. On the Railways Bill, we're obviously at a really critical phase. The engagement is on a number of levels. Politically, Mark has mentioned direct engagement with Lord Hendy. I'm directly engaging with DfT. James and Vernon, the chair of TfW, are engaging directly with Network Rail. There are a couple of key elements. There's what appears on the face of the Bill, which is important for Wales, and then there's the way Great British Rail operates going forward. We need to make sure TfW is properly representing the Wales voice. That's really good for the UK Government as well because, as Mark mentioned, TfW operates across the border. I can't remember from where the question came. Chester station, for example, is really important for the north Wales main line, but it's also important for Manchester Airport and the rest. I think we're in a good position, but you're right to ask the question, because it is a critical timing phase. We're pretty optimistic, but wouldn't underestimate that it's pretty challenging to change quite an inbuilt culture there.

I'll go for 'pretty optimistic'. We'll take that. That's the line we'll go for.

That's the civil service line.

It's a good line.

Leti, did you want to come in?

No. Janet was raising her hand.

Janet has to leave the meeting. Thank you for that. Moving forward to rail services, as they say in Welsh, 'Pawb a'i fys ble mae'i ddolur.' I don't know how you'd translate that, but that's another thing. We've heard a lot about the Valleys lines. The Cambrian line is one I'm familiar with. Ironically, I think one of the challenges with the Cambrian line is that, because of the signalling system there, of course, it is ahead of the rest of the network in the UK. That causes other challenges. My fundamental question is: over the summer, there were a lot of delays, there were issues in the height of the hot weather, about air conditioning systems, there seem to be staff—. It becomes a surprise, nearly, if it is running. When are the new units, long awaited, supposed to be on the track?

I'll ask Duncan to come in, if I may, in terms of any specifics there. He might be better equipped. But I think there's another question ahead of that, and that's about whether we learnt from what happened this summer. It feels very much as though we're in a position now where, unless we're mad, this is our new normal, and we need to prepare for the events we've had. We had, I think, five severe hot weather positions that affected the whole of the country. They affected rail in particular, because basically, the whole of the network was never equipped to be able to operate at the temperatures that we were in. On the Cambrian line, where you've got older units that are then more susceptible to those, they take the brunt of that change first.

The investment across the piece, when it comes to Transport for Wales, in new units has been transformational. It has just not been transformational everywhere at the same time. You've seen the tram-trains—I referenced them earlier—but the other core Valleys lines now are largely a completely modern environment. We need that to spread across the piece. We've talked about £14 billion capital funding, but we subsidise our rail services significantly. We need to make sure that the funding that comes through from the UK Government matches that requirement as well. Part of that is about us being prepared with these services that deliver and are reliable, because the only way you get patronage up is when people are confident that when they turn up at a station the train's going to go, and when they arrive at their destination and they need to catch a bus, the bus is there to be able to take them on their onward journey. And reflecting on the point earlier, the final bit of it can be a walk or a cycle at the end, if that's the right thing to do. But we need this connectivity across the piece, which is important.

On the specifics, Duncan, do you want to come in?

I have a couple of practical points. In terms of the legacy fleet and operating it, it was not designed to work in heats that we've had this summer, and the plan is to replace those with a new fleet this year. So, we'll be holding those to account. I also live on the Cambrian line, so I'm aware of the issues.

I think the other thing that does come to light is that there is a cross-border issue here as well. So, although the signalling is really clear on the Cambrian line, it's the points or the connections at Shrewsbury that often cause the problem on those trains. So, again, lobbying the UK Government to see that benefit for the wider piece is key.

In terms of lobbying, that's quite important, because it links into the next thing I want to ask you. Is that something we should be doing as a committee, then, because if that's an issue—or add our voice to any lobbying?

I don't know what to say other than an emphatic, 'Yes, please'. As a committee, you're cross-party, which makes a big difference. You've also got the support of the services to help you research these matters as well, to help you get behind these things. But support to put pressure that's a reflective pressure, so you've given it some thought, is hugely beneficial to us.

Personally, I think that's something, because Shrewsbury is a key infrastructure on the route.

Linking on, therefore, there is an odd thing that's been raised a few times also, which is concessionary passes—hugely popular throughout Wales. From Shrewsbury down the Heart of Wales line to Swansea, they can be used, but from Shrewsbury along the Cambrian line, you have to reach Machynlleth before you can use them. Either the Shropshire border has moved west or we need to take back the old Pengwern and Shrewsbury, I suggest. Why is there inconsistency?

I'm not sure that redrawing the maps is something that is in my responsibility, yet.

It's quite a detailed question. If it's okay with the committee, can we come back to you on the detail? I don't have it to hand.

You can indeed. That's fine. I'm going to hand over to Kiera.

I just wanted to touch on the passes. There's an issue with young people's travel passes as well. If you do tap-on and tap-off on the bus, you can't use it and, for example, the discount as well that's currently available. Similarly, if you are using the tap-on, tap-off on the trains, you cannot use a young person's railcard. As we move towards that integration and the one-ticket goal, something like an Oyster card solves all that problem. You get a young person's Oyster card, you tap-on, tap-off. Is that something you're exploring?

I think the integration needs to be seamless for people. We've got the same thing, or a similar issue, where you've got the unintended consequence of doing a good thing. So, I think tap-on, tap-off makes a lot of sense for people. But one of the things that occurred to me, and hopefully something we can change quite quickly, is that if you're a cash rail passenger, at the moment it costs you more to travel using it than it does on tap-on, tap-off. And the people who are using cash in the main now are doing it because that's their only way of them being able to budget for their journey. So, there are unintended consequences of things that work well.

With MyTravelPass, there have been 9 million passenger journeys on this young person's bus pass. That's a success that we should all celebrate and commit to, going forward. It's one of those things that that success then leads to, 'Well, that didn't work in the way that it did.' Transport for Wales are aware of this in terms of managing that process. And I think the answer is that it's a system answer. I don't think it's difficult. I think this has been done elsewhere across the globe, and it's picking up those system responses. But the more feedback on things that aren't working, we need to make sure that we're picking those up as well.

Shav.

Talking about the bus fares and tap-on, tap-off, it's something people have been talking about, having this one card system for years, I feel like. And the issue, the one question, I have is that the introduction of that £1 bus fare has been hugely popular. I know the commitment is there—it was there from the previous Government—and the commitment is there to keep it until March next year. I'm assuming that you will then potentially look at expanding that to rail and other potential infrastructure, maybe even trams if we get there, and that really helps in terms of tackling the cost of living. You know, Keira mentioned Mamdani—with all of these mayors, including the previous Manchester mayor, all of these things were really popular at the time. Do you think that we are disenfranchising some people, as you've mentioned, in terms of cash? There are still a lot of people in Wales who do get paid in cash, so we can't just assume that everyone's even got a bank account; not everyone has a bank account. Is there going to be a balance between having both? What I don't want is a situation where we have really good public infrastructure and we finally get to a position where we have really good buses that can actually get you to your workplace and then a train and everything works really neatly—. I mean, that's the dream, right, but do we then need a balance, because there will always be some people that don't have a tap-on option?

I think I'm referencing the point I made a short while ago about there are communities of interest who are outside of the normal parameters of how we may travel. It may be because they've got disability, it may be because they're using cash to do things. And if I don't reflect on their needs, then I think I've really not done my job effectively. So, I'm spending a lot of energy and the cash issue is something that I'm aware of and have a solution for. It's because of the reasons that you just identified as well, that it's actually impacting those people who are probably those people who are least equipped financially to be able to deal with paying more for that journey.

As we move the integrated ticketing system along, that gives us an opportunity, so it becomes seamless between one mode and another. I travelled recently from Barry, where I live, to Bridgend and on to Carmarthen by train and then I took two buses to get to Aberystwyth. And in every step of the way, the bus—. It does work. I got off the train and the bus was there—

I don't drive, so I rely on public transport.

—and I got off that other bus and the bus was there. Sometimes we characterise, and I'm not going to do that, because I think there are some things that work really well. We need it to work well every time and we need it to work well across the country as well, which is the critical thing.

And just going back to buses as well, one of the things that's come up from a lot of the disability action groups and women's groups as well is the need for lighting, better lighting, but also the possibility of charging points for electric wheelchairs and mobility aids as well. Obviously, there are more and more people who use—. They cycle so much of their route and then they get on a bus, and, again, having charging points would be a pretty big game changer for a number of people.

That's a really interesting point and something we'll take away.

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you. Leti, did you have something about Cardiff—connecting to Cardiff airport?

Oh, yes. I've got many questions, but I can go to that one. What are the plans to improve public transport accessibility to Cardiff Airport?

So, I think you tried to ask this question of the Cabinet Minister the other day and he said to ask me, didn't he? [Laughter.] So, it shows that I watch this committee and think it's important. So, I think it's really important that we get this right. So, there have been ways of trying to do this before that haven't been that effective, but things have changed I think, as well. Obviously, COVID has put a stop to the last time that it was done. But within the bus franchising opportunity, we can make the case for there to be a link. I think it needs to be a fast transit link to make it work.

But also, Cardiff and Vale College are just about to open their new, within a year, campus that's close to the airport. So, it's about trying to find—. It's not just about people who are travelling to the airport, it's about people who are travelling to their education. How do we make sure that we match those up in these answers? And it's something that, as I'm looking around—.

We've actually remitted TfW recently on reopening the consideration of a fast bus link from Cardiff Central to Cardiff Airport. I don't have the conclusion on that, but, obviously, we can feed back. But really, it's just about that connectivity and having a—. The programme for government commitment is on a fully integrated transport system, so we need to look at all options to get people quicker from the middle of the city and out, and also as you're coming down the M4 and how those links work. So, that's an addition to the local services. So, I think that's one we'd like to come back to you on once that review concludes.

That would be lovely. Thank you.

Really quickly on buses, coming back to buses, obviously, the deregulation of bus services was a nightmare. We finally got the bus Bill and things are looking up. One of the big things that the trade unions have always faced is the inequality in pay, terms and conditions across each of the operators, and they've always argued that it's always been about profit over the people. This may be something that the unions may have raised with you previously, and they definitely always raised it previously with the previous Ministers as well. But do you think that we are now at a stage where we should be looking at a collectively bargained agreement for those workers?

I think there are some difficulties with this, because you've got individual operators who've got their workforces there. Although, you're right—now that we're under the bus franchising model, we've got a chance to be able to influence this. We're going through a consultation period at the moment with regard to Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006, in particular, going on—so, the transfer of undertakings of the employees into their new roles. So, this is a chance for us to be able to consider how best we make sure that we're collectively utilising bus franchising to make sure that we have some shared goals across the bus network. I'm not sure, but I don't know whether Alison's got anything particular, or Duncan—.

I think it's really fair. I mean, TfW are actively committed to social partnership as part of the work. No final decision has been made, actually, specifically on the questions you asked, though extensive engagement is ongoing. Mark's asked to be kept fully updated on this position. So, again, I appreciate that it's one that we absolutely will need to come back to as this concludes and finalises.

But it's a live consultation that's going on today, and I've met the unions ahead of the consultation. I've also met the operators.

Thank you.

Alun.

Just following on in terms of bus reform and franchising, I wonder whether you can outline where we are, particularly in terms of risks—the operational risks, delivery risks around that. I'm particularly thinking in terms of some of the things you said earlier on, in terms of getting on a bus and how modern, comfortable it is, and how we build that into the fleet. I know that those discussions are ongoing in terms of improving the fleet, but give us an idea of where we're at in terms of that.

So, we're committed to the bus franchising model that was set, which we as a party supported in the last Senedd. The timescales associated with it are probably the first risk, and we're committed to doing it in the timescales that we prescribed. So, that's hard work, but it is really important that we spread the benefits that we'll see from bus franchising across the country. They've chosen a regional—. So, they're starting in the south-west, and then they're moving to the north and mid, and the south-east being the last place to go. And the reason the south east is the last is largely because of the two municipal operators there—Cardiff Bus and Newport Transport. So, there's a complexity, and there are lots of people in those two areas as well.

I think there are some risks associated with making bus franchising work, with the financial envelope being similar. So, I think there was a reflection on the last Government, who talked very much about bus franchising changing the world for buses. I'm toning that down. I think what we need to be doing is to make sure that we get the framework right and then we build on it over time. What we've seen—and MyTravelPass is a great example of that—is if we get patronage, that will drive the farebox. And with those young people who've used buses and find that they're the best way of getting to where they need to get to, then we'll see bus patronage go up, the farebox will improve and we'll be able to then start expanding those journeys. I see this as being a really long-term strategic issue.

When it comes to the actual buses themselves, I think it's—. We're all committed to a decarbonisation agenda. I do think that there's a real opportunity for us to be able to utilise clean diesel buses to take 20 cars off the roads and put people on a clean diesel bus. So, I'm making sure that we get the bus network that is effective and works for today whilst still moving along that decarbonisation agenda. And I think this fits into a point I made earlier about the fast charging opportunities for freight. There are some linkages there between fast charging for buses and for freight—how do we make sure that we follow those opportunities across the piece?

I think the final thing, before I see whether Duncan wants to come in, just on franchising—and it links back to this integration point that we've thought about before—we've got to make sure that the routes that we choose are integrated. This is a big piece of work to make sure that these seamless—. The description of how I travelled to Aberystwyth the other day, I want that to be the same elsewhere.

I was just going to add that I think you've highlighted that there are some key deadlines and timelines. The first thing is that franchising is a generational change, the service we're offering. But within that longer term, immediately this year we'll need to be getting the regulations agreed by the Senedd. So, that's the turn of the year. That's the kind of first gateway, if you like, to the next changes. But then that will roll over. I was just checking timing and I think the first of the regions, as the Minister said—south-west Wales—is due in early 2028. So, all of a sudden, the timeline is getting quite compressed. But what I'd also add is that this is a really sort of complex, long-term position that will continue to evolve and develop. And I'm sure we'll learn an awful lot as we see the south-west going. By the time we get to the next round, it will no doubt change some of our thinking as we develop.

Can I just add to that? Just in terms of my direction as well, I think that, sometimes—. The final roll-out is coming close to the next election, and one of the things that I've been quite clear about is that we work right to the end. So, we don't stop—we continue to push ahead to make sure that we deliver, because, ultimately, going back to a point I made earlier, we put the people first in this and make those changes. I think that the timescale is a tough timescale, but it's doable, providing we take every step of the way and keep going right until the end.

And then the other aspect is that the vision is one timetable, one network. Don't underestimate the challenge of meeting that. And we shouldn't forget as well, I think, the budgetary point—the franchising model is scalable. So, obviously, the opportunity to make that work—. I think some of the questions on this side around that fully integrated transport system are really a core part of a multimodal approach in Wales.

Tom, then Leti.

Just picking up on the point you were making, Minister, about decarbonisation of buses, I know that the UK Government is looking, in 2028, I believe it is, at implementing a 3p charge per mile driven by an electric vehicle. They've committed that, currently, buses are exempt from it. But are you doing any work and are you having any thoughts about if that exemption ends? Because they're not saying that it's going to always be exempt, they're just saying for the initial roll-out it's going to be exempt. But if we're seeing more buses move to being EVs based on the financial model that you're not paying for fuel, but now suddenly there's a new tax coming in from the UK Government, are we doing any work on modelling how that's going to impact bus transport switching to EV?

So, we've got a fleet strategy coming through from TfW that talks directly to not just that point but the wider point about what sort of fleet we should be buying in Wales for the future of it. It'll be a comprehensive piece of work that reflects on all of the elements in terms of the cost justification of this and also the environmental benefits of being in a green bus rather than another bus. I think there's also a real opportunity for us to encourage—. I think younger people are the answer to buses, frankly. And I think that we've got people now who choose not to drive, but they only do that if public transport is good enough. I think that they want us to have electric buses—they want those buses to be clean. And if you go to any modern functioning European city, the buses are exceptional, and we need to have that as our target here across the whole of the country.

And it very much still makes sense in the urban setting, but it'll be interesting to see what TfW think around more rural Wales switching to EV buses with this new charge coming in.

And the answer to that is—. You know, we've got the Fflecsi bus in particular, which is a huge benefit to that, and a lot of them are electric at the moment. So, how do you make sure that those shorter services that pick up fewer people are effective as well? I think they're great for rural locations in particular.

Thank you.

Leti.

How will you ensure that the bus services Transport for Wales includes in franchise bus routes meet the needs of communities?

So, the route development work is being done with communities. That's quite an intense piece of work, to make sure we pick the right routes that suit people. Shav mentioned earlier that bus deregulation didn't work. It's been hugely damaging to Welsh communities. It's meant that people can't get to the places they need to get to, and services they relied on when you used to have these municipal operators all went in a flourish of signing activity by Margaret Thatcher when she deregulated. This is a long-term issue that was going to take quite a while to get back to. I went to Barry bus museum the other day where they hold a lot of the records.

A great museum.

It's a great museum. Honestly, it's the best thing I've ever done by a mile.

A plug for Barry.

And part of that was about showing how communities were central to how these buses used to operate. I think that's where this bus franchising starts to get to. So, the communities need to show how they connect within their community, but also how they connect outwards. And it talks back to the need for bus franchising to be linked to the rail network where it works, and it needs to link to other things as well. That's the central part of it.

Just quickly, Leti, I think the secondary part is making sure we've got—. So, we have people who are very capable at route planning in organisations at the moment, and we need to make sure that that knowledge base is still there. So, I met somebody at Newport Transport the other day who described the fact that they had to change a bus route because they knew that a doctor's surgery had moved from the bottom of the hill to the top of the hill, and that wouldn't be something that is in a—. There's no book for that. That's because they know this stuff, and that knowledge needs to be reflected in what we do. Sorry to cut across.

No, it's okay. So, what targets and objectives are you setting for this, and how are you monitoring and holding Transport for Wales to account on its delivery?

The first thing is about delivering to a timetable that we've set, which is the critical thing. We are operating within—. I think I said earlier about working within the current envelope. So, we have to be really careful that we don't oversell the immediate benefits of bus franchising. I think Duncan's phrase about scaleable opportunity is where it really makes a difference. I think the key opportunities are about trying to—. If we get these networks right, then ridership will go up, farebox will go up. These are the key metrics that will make that bus network more sustainable over the longer term. So, I'm reflecting on my answer to Alun a few minutes ago. I think that the timetable of this is demanding, but it's a timetable that we are committed to because I think, ultimately, we leave a bus network that actually works.

Okay. How are you ensuring that local bus companies, particularly small and medium-sized bus companies, are able to secure contracts to deliver franchise services?

They're really important. I think that the SME market is really important to this. They're the ones that I referenced earlier, and John's question about fuel as well. They're the most vulnerable ones to fuel hikes at the moment, and they also provide other services, so they're going to be bidding for some of these franchise routes. They're also delivering home-to-school transport. They're very embedded in communities. The thing that I find most important about them is that they really care about their communities as well; the drivers are of those communities. So, we're breaking up the routes into things where they will be able to bid for routes that work as part of the franchise, and we expect them, because they know their routes so well, to bid into it and be effective. I think, for me, there's something about the difference between bigger companies, who will also bid for some of these things as well—. I think the local companies understand those networks better, and that human intelligence that I referenced a few minutes ago probably comes from those more than anyone else.

Thank you. Can I have one more?

Go on, I'm feeling generous.

All right. So, being in Cardiff, Wales's capital city, where are the plans to make buses a 24-hour service?

Good question. I've not—. That will be a question for Cardiff Bus in the first instance. I think it's a really important point that talks about a modern city and a modern economy as well. I think that it talks to some of the stuff I mentioned yesterday in my statement about how do we connect—. Cardiff and Newport are getting increasingly closer together—how do you make sure that these cities are connected on a continual basis? And again, if we are running 24 hours for some services, it's about the confidence that people can have that, 'If I turn up to the bus stop at this time, I can get to where I need to get to further on.' But I think it's an interesting point, which I'm happy to come back to another time.

Thank you.

Interesting. I see we've got a quarter of an hour, or less. To go back to TfW, there was one item there about rolling stock capacity shortfall—they've identified that. How and when will this be addressed?

Do you fancy kicking off on that one?

I'm getting to grips with this, so, again, like the bus piece, there is a fleet strategy being developed by TfW, and there are a couple of different elements. So, if you look at the package that we talked about yesterday, that's going to need new fleet running. One of the challenges about a train is the lead-in time to order a train. We need to be ordering it today for a 2032 service. That then gives us real budgetary pressures because that goes so far beyond the typical cycle of a budgetary area. But we're actually actively in that process right now with the Welsh Government's budget and how that delivers. The key element is getting really accurate information from TfW about when the real decision hits and when that needs to be made, and we need to be planning for the long term on those, because most of those decisions we're taking now will go into the next term of Government, and that's quite a difficult point to land. But I think we're acutely aware that there's no point in building stations and rail if you haven't got a service to run on them. So, that is a real key part of our active consideration right now, and where we are.

Thank you very much. And perhaps just a final—. Sorry, did you have—? Shav?

You can go. I'll—

I was going to move on to active travel unless you—

Okay. So, talking about rail, obviously, Cardiff parkway is within my constituency, but it's also really important in terms of business and job opportunities as well, and I know that—. So, if Cardiff parkway is going to end up being the first project for the south-east Wales network board to deliver, what are, I guess, some of the remaining barriers at the moment? What are some of those sticking points that you expect the board are looking at that are maybe coming up and are part of the reason why they haven't possibly reached a clear, agreed timetable in terms of how that's going to be delivered?

And additionally, talking about the parkway, one of the things that comes up time and time again, of course, is that it's a business station, really, isn't it? And local community organisations—. I recently met with lots of different, really interesting organisations in the Hive in St Mellons, and they were talking about what are the community benefits. And I know, Minister, you always talk about how the community really needs to benefit from any project that we're doing. So, what they equally were asking was is it just going to be big businesses that get to benefit as a result of the parkway or are there, then, going to be, say, some shops that will be specifically for local businesses, smaller businesses, to be able to set up? And for the local people who live in that area, are they, then, equally—we just said about 24-hour buses—going to be able to get into the city centre or other places outside of operational hours for the businesses?

Okay. There are a few elements to that and some of it is outside of my lane, in particular the private sector developments at the business park. But I think your points about local engagement are really important, and that's something that we'll take away and we'll feed back through, because—. I'm sure Duncan will come in on this because, in his old job, he had a lot to do with Cardiff parkway as well.

In answer to, 'How do we move these things along quicker?'—. And just for a point of clarity, they may not be the first—. Magor and Undy station was also referenced in my—. That is a walkway rather than a parkway. So, I don't want them to feel that they're in any way going to be disadvantaged. And it's not a race, they were just the two that were prioritised. But I think there's a real need for us to make sure that the station is there for the rail purposes that we need it to be. So, I'm keen to engage with the developers to see how we can help to make sure that the station part of it happens.

I'm probably one step removed from the business park element of it from the other side, because my key focus is on making sure we can solve some of the M4 problems, and this is one of the—one of—the critical ways of being able to do it. I don't know whether you've got anything more on the parkway?

I think that's a really important point. We call it Cardiff parkway, but, of course, it sits between Newport and Cardiff, so my view is that it should operate like a Bristol Parkway-type principle. There are some complexities with Cardiff parkway because of the fact that it sits on the main line as well as the regional line. I think the statement yesterday makes it clear that it's a station that serves the wider community and also, hopefully, a very successful business park as well. So, I think there's a job of work here to make it a broader part of the Burns proposition and in that broader remit. As the Minister said, the business park is a separate consideration again, but we see it very much as a strategic part of that whole programme of activity under Burns.

And you think that—. You're confident that we're going to be able to get going and make it happen now?

Well, the first commitment—. So, we were actually at the rail board last Wednesday and an action was taken there that they're basically going to go through and review the whole proposition to ensure it's still all in place and ready to go so that that work is starting with immediate effect. I won't go into the technicalities because I don't understand them, with all the different railway stages, but there are a number of steps that need to be taken in collaboration with Network Rail and with developers to, basically, put that package in a directly investable proposition. So, again, we will be able to come back to the committee with an update as that work concludes.

I think that talks to the immediacy from the statement yesterday. We wanted there to be actual work on things that—. You know, there are things that we will disagree on on the statement yesterday—I get that—but there were things that we need to agree on, and some of those we're prioritising at pace. So, the Wales rail board meeting, people started work on parkway in particular; it was referenced that day. This is critical that we get this going.

Good. We've got a couple of minutes. Just quickly, active travel obviously ties into preventative health, but also you've touched on it previously in terms of ensuring that everybody is able to access services and travel in general. Is it still—? How do you see that developing?

So, it's still critical and central to the transport strategy. I think I'd reflect on the way that previously we perhaps suggested to people that the modal shift was a personal necessity for them to do, and in some of our communities, that's tougher to do. So, I think the language and the way we talk about active travel will be quite different. I think it was referenced in my answer to Tom earlier, and hopefully that came across, that this is something that's a complementary way, and a way of making sure it works.

When we talk about active travel, I worry, sometimes, that we have one bit of a route and then things are not all connected. You could be on a cycle and then, all of a sudden, you're on something that's inappropriate for your cycle, especially if you're a family. So, I think there's work to be done.

It's part of the regional transport fund as well. So, it's something that's continuing to be funded. But we want to see some more joined-up thinking. We've got some plans coming through from local authorities by the end of the year—I think they're mandated to bring their active travel plans forward. It's central to what we do.

You've referenced the preventative health agenda. This is the first Government that's had a preventative health Minister, and this is our part to play in that consideration. I don't know whether Alison's got anything to add.

Yes. I was just going to say that now we've got the national travel survey as well, so we've got really good data on trips by walking, wheeling and cycling. So, we know we've got a baseline, we know one in five journeys are made by active travel. So, it's a really good way now that we can track how our investment is actually making a difference.

We're viewing it very much as a cross-cutting element of a multimodal transport system. I was looking at the data that Alison's referring to, that 50 cent of primary school kids now use active travel to get to school. It's up from about 40-something per cent in 2018.

Forty-four.

Forty-four. Caught me out again. [Laughter.] So, basically, you can see that progress, and it links back to, I think it was your question, on learner travel—a really key part. But the critical bit is now we're getting the evidence that, historically, has not been there. We're now getting the evidence that we can demonstrate its value, as well, as part of that system, like the primary school figure we just quoted.

Diolch yn fawr. Tom, did you want to come in?

Yes, just quickly, just on the active travel thing. I appreciate what Alison's just said, so perhaps my data is not as up to date as yours, but from the reading that I've done, we've spent or allocated something like £330 million to active travel since 2018. But the Senedd research team in the last term, and Audit Wales a couple of years ago, have said that the cycling rate from the baseline figure taken in 2014 hasn't increased; it's stayed exactly the same. And actually, the walking rates have decreased. So, if we've spent £330 million and cycling rates have stayed about 6 per cent, 7 per cent, walking rates have come down and haven't recovered since the pandemic, I'm struggling to see how we tie that up to say, 'Active travel's working', when Audit Wales and the Senedd's research team are saying you've spent £330 million, but actually it's not increased.

There's competing information. What we'll do is send this committee a link to the Wales travel survey, which will give you the data that we'll be building on, to show the progress. But I just want to link you back to how I answered the question before. I think, sometimes, we haven't linked these things up. So, we're looking forward to getting these submissions from the local authorities, and the challenge from us is to make sure that they're felt as strategic opportunities. When you're talking about people changing behaviour, behaviour change doesn't happen overnight. I think that's the mistake of the previous Government, of just saying, 'I say it is, therefore it is', and that isn't the truth of the matter. We need to be recognising that some of these things take a long time. But I think there's a general consensus that we want people to be more active. It will save the health service an absolute fortune if we get this right, and we've got a part to play. So, I look forward to your happy endorsement of future active travel as we work through, Tom.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, Weinidog. Thank you very much. I hope we weren't too gruelling for you and your colleagues. But, yes, thank you very much for all that information today and responding to the questions. And thank you, Duncan and Alison. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr.

Do you want a couple of minutes' comfort break? Shall we—?

You might want to just finish off the meeting.

Yes, okay. The suggestion is that we note the papers, and then we'll have a break. Okay?

So, item three is papers to note.

Papurau i'w nodi. So, dwi'n awgrymu—.

I suggest that we note 3.1—

Ac felly, efo hynny, dyna ddiwedd y darn cyhoeddus, os ydych chi'n gytûn. Gaf i gynnig, felly, o dan Reolau Sefydlog 17.42(vii) ac 17.42(ix), i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod? Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn.