Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Thank you very much, Chair. I'm Mark Drakeford, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A, Rebecca, ar gyfer y record.

Rebecca Evans, Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Fe wnaf i fynd o'r chwith i'r dde, felly fe wnaf i fynd at Duncan yn gyntaf.

Bore da. Duncan Hamer, director of economy, business and the regions.

Thank you so much. Ann.

Ann Watkin—bore da—head of strategy and planning for the mid and south-west region within business and regions.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ac Elin.

Elin Burns, cyfarwyddwr diwylliant, treftadaeth, chwaraeon a’r Gymraeg.

Diolch, Elin. Ac, Iddon, os ydych chi'n gallu cyflwyno eich hunan.

Ydw, siŵr. Iddon Edwards, ac rwy'n gweithio yn is-adran 'Cymraeg 2050' ac yn gyfrifol am faes yr economi, tai a chymunedau.

Croeso mawr i chi i gyd. Felly, fe wnawn ni fynd yn syth at gwestiynau, os yw hynny'n iawn. Gaf i ofyn, i'r Ysgrifenyddion Cabinet sydd gennym ni, a oes gennych chi unrhyw sylwadau cyffredinol yr hoffech chi eu rhoi i ni am raglen Arfor—unrhyw lwyddiannau, heriau rydych chi eisiau sôn amdanyn nhw'n arbennig—a phe buasech chi'n ei ddylunio fe nawr, a oes unrhyw beth y byddech chi'n ei wneud yn wahanol?

Shall I start?

Yes, please.

Just last week, we had the opportunity to meet the leaders of the local authorities within the Arfor area, just to hear, really, from them on their reflections of the scheme, because, of course, it started its life as a proposal from local authorities themselves. And I was really taken by one description, which was 'a roaring success'. And I think the positivity in that meeting and the keenness to explore what more can be learned through the experiences of the Arfor projects has been really, really uplifting, in the sense of having that opportunity to look at the linkages between local economic development and support for the Welsh language, and really shining a light on that, I think, has been really, really helpful.

And I think there have been some things that we can really point to that have been successful. I think collaboration has been one of the really important strengths of Arfor—more than 200 partners across the public, private and third sectors all working together with this aim of strengthening that link between the local economy and the Welsh language.

And then some of the work that's been done in relation to supporting young people to find a career and have that aspiration for a life within their local area, I think, has also been one of the things that, I think, collectively, people have seen as one of the big successes of Arfor. That said, of course, we await the findings of the Wavehill report and the pause and review work, but I think those are certainly early reflections that we would have on the successes, certainly.

Diolch. Cyn i ni fynd at yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet arall, fe wnaf i fynd at Heledd.

Yes, I just wanted to ask why the meeting only took place so recently, given that Arfor came to an end—Arfor 2—a year ago. So, it's just to understand why that delay, because, obviously, one of the things you've emphasised previously has been the need to mainstream. So, I'm just quite surprised that you were only having that dialogue a week ago.

We wanted to have that conversation immediately ahead of committee today so that we could get the latest and also hear a bit more about the kind of pause and reflect work, and to understand the aspirations for the future as well. We did want to come to committee with the most fresh opinions from our colleagues in local government. Also, I think that the governance has been something that has been really positive in terms of the Arfor scheme as well. So, that programme board, supported by an officials group, has been really important in managing the day-to-day delivery. And, again, the feedback I've had is that that project board has been very useful. And, as I understand it, the review work that has taken place thus far said that the project board was one of the strengths of the Arfor scheme as well.

So, just for clarity, it wasn't the first time you'd met all local authority leaders to discuss Arfor; it was just prep for this specific meeting, or was it your first time discussing Arfor with them?

I can’t remember if we have had a previous Arfor meeting since I’ve been in post. I’ll check, but we did want to have a meeting before today. Obviously, those programme board meetings are regular, and the discussions between officials are regular as well.

The board meets on a regular basis and officials from the Welsh Government attend those board meetings. In addition to that, as the Cabinet Secretary has said, there are regular meetings of an officials group, and both officials from the economy department and the Welsh language department attend those meetings on a regular basis.

Thank you, Ann. Duncan, did you want to come in?

Yes, briefly. I was just going to add that it is also part of the current programme for government, so we routinely update the Cabinet Secretary on progress, both in terms of specifics on Arfor and how we’re now looking to mainstream that activity into my broader portfolio of economic developments and actions. So, it is a more regular update than the meeting that the Cab Sec mentioned—last week, I think it was.

I do meet so regularly with local government leaders in various different guises that I would have to double-check.

Thank you.

Okay. That's fine. Gareth, did you want to come in?

Yes, I think we’re seeking a bit of clarity here. Obviously, you say that you attend meetings, whether that be virtually or in person, and that your exposure to those meetings has been fairly limited. We’re just, obviously, trying to gauge as a committee the Welsh Government's direct—. Or, can you give a precise analysis of the Welsh Government's role within this and say what actually is the Welsh Government's role within these meetings? Are they just being attended, or is the Welsh Government actually a key stakeholder within this and offering some good and tangible guidance and support wherever that’s needed?

I'll ask officials to reflect on the programme board specifically, but I do think that it's really important to reflect that this is very much a local government-led initiative, and so those projects themselves were developed by local government. The proposals around which of the pilots to start developing are, quite rightly, I think, local government led. So, they came to Welsh Government with the proposal, which, of course, formed part of the co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru.

And then, in terms of delivery as well, that's very local—so, partly through local government itself, but then I know that they've worked with partners, like Menter Môn, for example, and others, for delivery on the ground. So, in that sense, you would expect the Welsh Government to be allowing local government and their partners to be getting on with the actual day-to-day delivery, whilst also playing our part on the programme board, and so on.

Okay.

Diolch. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, oes unrhyw beth—

Jest un peth i'w ddweud.

One of the things about having been around for so very long is that I can remember the genesis of the original Arfor programme, because I was in the room in a series of discussions between Leighton Andrews and Rhodri Glyn Thomas. Those were the two people who came together and the discussion they were having was on how we could do things to turn back the tide on an idea that, a decade or more ago, was still prevalent in the heartlands of the Welsh language, that the language held you back economically, that the language was a barrier to economic progress, that English was the language of commerce and the world, and Welsh wasn't something that helped you. The discussion was: how can we persuade people that, actually, the ability to speak Welsh is an economic asset to you, if you do it in the right way? That is what Arfor was originally intended to do. And I think, more than a decade later, that debate is different today than it was back then, and the discussions you have if you're out there talking to people who are part of Arfor is, 'How can we do more?', 'What are the most effective instruments?', 'What are the projects that have worked the best?' But the conversation is no longer so much about trying to make a difference to the mindset, trying to persuade people that Welsh can be an economic asset to you. I think that argument is sort of won, really, or at least it's won to a greater extent than it was then, and now what the debate is about is how we do that in the most effective way.

Diolch am hwnna. Wel, dwi'n siŵr y bydd sawl haen wahanol i hyn y byddwn ni'n mynd i dreiddio iddynt. Mi wnaf i droi at Alun nesaf.

Diolch yn fawr. Dwi’n cofio sgyrsiau gyda Rhodri Glyn amboutu'n union yr un peth. Ond dwi’n licio’r cysyniad y tu ôl i Arfor, yn y ffordd rydych chi newydd ei ddisgrifio fe. A dwi yn credu ei fod e’n bwysig o ran psychology, os ydych chi’n licio, y Cymry Cymraeg. A dwi’n gobeithio bod Arfor wedi llwyddo i wneud hynny ei hun. Dwi’n gwybod bod cymdeithas wedi newid yn ystod y 10 mlynedd diwethaf, ta beth. Ond beth oedd amcanion Arfor pan osodwyd y syniad yn 2001, dwi'n meddwl? Beth oedd amcanion Arfor 1?

Wel, Cadeirydd, yr amcanion yn Arfor 1—. Dim ond £2 filiwn oedd tu ôl i'r rhaglen; roedd y rhaglen yn un fach, ac yn un ble roeddem ni eisiau peilota pethau. Fel dwi’n cofio, roeddem ni’n canolbwyntio ar bobl ifanc ar y pryd, yn y cadarnleoedd, i drio ffeindio mwy o gyfleon economaidd i bobl ifanc, ac i drio perswadio pobl ifanc. Dwi’n cofio bod ar y llwyfan yn sir Gâr ar y pryd, gyda nifer fawr o’r bobl ifanc dal yn yr ysgol, ac yn trio’u perswadio nhw, 'Mae’r ffaith eich bod chi’n gallu siarad Cymraeg yn help mawr i chi pan fyddwch chi’n mynd mas i drio ffeindio swyddi, ac yn y blaen.' Ac roedd pobl yn edrych yn ôl ataf i ac yn meddwl, 'Dŷn ni ddim wedi meddwl am yr iaith Gymraeg fel yna o’r blaen.'

Cytuno.

So, yn wreiddiol, y syniad oedd i drio canolbwyntio ar bobl ifanc, i’w perswadio nhw, 'Os ydych chi eisiau ffeindio swydd ym maes gofal cymdeithasol, er enghraifft, gyda’r ffaith eich bod chi’n gallu siarad Cymraeg, rydych chi’n mynd i sefyll mas achos mae mwy nag un peth yr ŷch chi’n gallu ei rhoi i gyflogwyr, ac yn y blaen.' So, yn wreiddiol, yn ôl yn Arfor 1, dyna ble oedd y ddadl, dwi’n meddwl.

Ocê. So, beth oedd y gwersi roeddech chi wedi eu dysgu pan oeddech chi’n cynllunio Arfor 2, o'r profiad o redeg Arfor 1? Dwi eisiau i Arfor fod yn llwyddiant; dyna beth dwi’n chwilio amdano. Dwi’n gweld y ffigurau sydd wedi’u cyhoeddi, ac mae hynny, wrth gwrs, yn adrodd yn ôl ar weithgareddau. Beth dwi’n trio gofyn i chi, Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, yw: beth oeddech chi’n rhagweld pan osodwyd, dwi’n credu, £11 miliwn ar gyfer Arfor 2? So, beth oedd eich amcanion pan osodwyd y gyllideb honno?

Wel, wrth gwrs, roedd Arfor 2 yn rhan o’r cytundeb rhwng y blaid Lafur a Phlaid Cymru, a dwi’n cofio siarad am dri pheth ar y pryd. Roeddem ni’n siarad am y footprint. Yr Arfor gwreiddiol oedd y pedwar awdurdod lleol yn y gorllewin. Roedd lot o'r ddadl am, 'Beth am Sir Benfro, gogledd Sir Benfro? Beth am Powys? Beth am Conwy a Sir Ddinbych? A allwn ni ymestyn footprint Arfor 2?' Ar ddiwedd y dydd, y casgliad oedd ei fod e’n rhy gymhleth i'w wneud e fel yna, ac fe wnaethon ni fwrw ymlaen gyda’r pedwar awdurdod lleol oedd yn Arfor 1.

Dwi’n cofio lot o sgyrsiau am drio ffeindio’r ffordd i ailwampio Arfor, nid i fod yn rhyw fath o stand-alone plan, yn rhywbeth ar wahân i bopeth arall, ond i gael Arfor yn rhan o'r cyfrifoldebau ehangach sydd gan yr awdurdodau lleol, a dyma pam mae'r pwyllgorau mae Ann wedi cyfeirio atynt yn bwysig, achos mae'n trio tynnu pobl eraill i mewn i Arfor a defnyddio’r arian a'r egni sydd yn Arfor i helpu awdurdodau lleol i wneud mwy yn fwy cyffredinol yn y gwaith maen nhw'n ei wneud.

A'r trydydd peth dwi'n cofio oedd pwysigrwydd cario ymlaen gyda'r gwaith roedd Arfor 1 yn ei wneud gyda phobl ifanc. Nid jest mewn swyddi, ond mewn tai a phethau eraill sy'n bwysig os ydym ni eisiau cadw pobl ifanc yn y cadarnleoedd, a rhoi cyfle iddyn nhw gario ymlaen i fyw yna neu dynnu pobl yn ôl sydd eisiau dod yn ôl.

Ocê, dwi'n gwerthfawrogi hynny. Blwyddyn ar ôl i Arfor 2 ddod i ben, i'r cyllid ddod i ben, beth yw'r gwersi dŷch chi'n meddwl ein bod ni wedi'u dysgu?

Dwi'n mynd yn ôl i Rebecca nawr, achos dwi ddim yn gyfrifol am hwn, dwi jest yn—

Gaf i ofyn i'r ddau ohonoch chi ar wahân, felly, am y gwersi o ran polisi iaith, a wedyn y gwersi ehangach ar gyfer datblygu economaidd?

Wel, ar ochr yr iaith, dwi'n meddwl mai'r wers bwysicaf yw, os ŷn ni eisiau i'r iaith lwyddo fel iaith bob dydd yn y cadarnleoedd, mae cyfleoedd economaidd yn sylfaenol i hynny. Os ŷn ni eisiau cael cyfleoedd i bobl, yn enwedig pobl ifanc, i aros yn y cadarnleoedd, mae'n bwysig nid jest i greu cyfleoedd i ddefnyddio'r iaith yn gymdeithasol neu yn y teulu, ond yn y gweithlu hefyd. Pwysigrwydd y gweithlu i ddyfodol yr iaith Cymraeg—dyna un o'r gwersi dwi'n tynnu mas ohono fe.

Ocê, gaf i jest fynd â chi tipyn bach yn bellach? Hynny yw, dwi'n cofio roedd gen i boster ar y wal ym Mhantycelyn pan roeddwn i yn y coleg, 'Heb waith, heb iaith', a dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi bod yn meddwl amboutu'r peth yma am nid jest blynyddoedd, ond degawdau. Felly, dwi'n cytuno â'ch dadansoddiad chi. So, beth ydy'r gwersi polisi? Os oeddech chi eisiau cynnig cyngor i'ch olynydd chi ar ôl yr etholiad, beth fuasai'r blaenoriaethau newid polisi o ran iaith fuasech chi'n eu hawgrymu ar sail profiad Arfor?

Dwy wers i fi: pwysigrwydd gweithio yn lleol ac yn gymunedol. Pan ŷch chi'n rhoi cyfleon a rhywfaint bach o arian, trwy'r prosiect Perthyn, er enghraifft, i bobl leol, beth chi'n ffeindio mas yw bod lot fawr o syniadau economaidd gyda nhw, pethau maen nhw'n gallu eu hawgrymu, pethau maen nhw'n gallu eu gwneud i greu busnesau, ac yn y blaen, sy'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg fel iaith gyntaf, iaith bob dydd.

A'r ail wers yw, ar ochr arall y sbectrwm, pwysigrwydd bod cynlluniau fel Arfor yn cydweithio â'r pethau sydd â lot fwy o arian, fel y north Wales growth deal, y mid Wales growth deal, ac yn y blaen. Os ŷn ni'n mynd i dynnu popeth rŷn ni'n gallu tynnu mas o Arfor, mae'n bwysig i Arfor gael dylanwad ar bolisïau eraill gyda lot fwy o arian a lot fwy o bosibiliadau. Ar un ochr, pwysigrwydd pethau lleol a chymunedol, ac, ar yr ochr arall, tynnu Arfor at ei gilydd gyda'r cynlluniau eraill.

Diolch. So, Cabinet Secretary, in terms of where we've been in terms of an economic tool or an economic programme, your colleague Cabinet Secretary is very bullish about its success, and some of the numbers are impressive, to be fair. So, how do you see it succeeding or not? And what lessons do you draw from Arfor, in terms of economic policy?

So, you'll be aware that we're awaiting the results of the pause and review period alongside that extra work from Wavehill, but we do have some early findings, which do suggest that, perhaps, there should be, in future, assuming the scheme would continue, that there would have to be a stronger identity, in the sense that there was some brand confusion, because there were different schemes underneath Arfor that had their own identities as well. So, perhaps some greater thought given to that.

And then, another of the early findings is that there should be greater strategic consistency across the counties, whilst also retaining that valued local flexibility as well. So, there's definitely a balance to be struck there. And then, another early finding is around some tighter eligibility for some of the schemes. Cymunedau Mentrus, for example, I think that there are suggestions there that that might require some tighter eligibility criteria, to make sure that we're maximising the value for money there and creating jobs and showing that additionality, rather than supporting what's been referred to as lifestyle-type projects—things that will give people a wage and allow them to support themselves.

I'm grateful to you for that, and I agree with your conclusions on much of that. One of the things that strikes me about Arfor—. I'm a great fan of Pen Llŷn. I think it's one of the most gorgeous parts of our country and I like to spend time there. I went around Pen Llŷn with Dr Simon Brooks, actually, who we'll discuss in the next session, and what struck me was the number of locally owned and operated businesses that operated through the medium of Welsh. And it was wonderful. It was fantastic to see. And when I was sitting there, outside Cwrw Llŷn, looking across at Coffi Llŷn and the rest of it, I was thinking, 'Wouldn't it be fantastic if we could apply this sort of approach to economic activity or management or whatever to other parts of Wales?' I went to Coaltown Coffee just before Christmas, just outside Ammanford, and I'm thinking that there's a great, fantastic opportunity to encourage local ownership in a way that your colleague the Cabinet Secretary mentioned in terms of ideas about enterprise and taking control of local economies and the rest of it. And I'm thinking—we had a session last week in the economy committee on local growth deals—that there must be some lessons from Arfor that we can transfer to other policy areas in terms of the economy and investing in local economies.

Yes. Absolutely. Some of that's already happening as well. So, one of the things that we want to do with the review from Arfor 2 is make sure that we're able to mainstream some of that activity, so that other parts of Wales can benefit from the same kinds of approaches. So, work's already going on through Business Wales, which I'll ask Duncan just to say a bit more about.

So, a couple of observations first, Chair, just to build on what the Cabinet Secretary said on the learnings from Arfor 2. One of the challenges is that there are both quantitative and qualitative impacts, and what you've described in the Llŷn there is quite—. There are elements of qualitative areas that we perhaps haven't been able to measure effectively. So, one of the lessons, I think, is that we would very much like to track on longitudinal surveys, say, the young people coming through Llwyddo'n Lleol, how they develop and where they go, do they start those businesses you're talking to, so that we can really start to understand.

In terms of the mainstreaming, one of the direct—. Even though we're in a learn and review phase, we are already starting to implement. So, of course, all of our mainstream business support services are already bilingual. One of the challenges is that the uptake of those bilingual services isn't as high as you'd expect it to be, based on the population of business owners we know. So, we know there's a cultural piece there that we need to understand and that we think this research can do, but we're also starting to build in—. So, one example is that we're working with the Welsh Language Commissioner in Gwynedd to implement a Welsh language pledge for small and medium-sized enterprises on the basis of—. It's just below the sort of gold standard that the commissioner's put in place, to allow people to go on a journey of using Welsh routinely, alongside decarbonisation and equality work. So, it's very much kind of building the learnings of Arfor across the whole package of support that we offer.

Mae Heledd eisiau dod mewn ar rywbeth, dwi'n meddwl.

I just wanted clarity. Cabinet Secretary, you mentioned some interim findings and obviously we don't have the final report from Wavehill. I just wanted to understand what you were referencing there and to really understand how all of this is progressing and shaping, because I'm not clear from what you were stating, sorry.

If I can pick up on that? Those interim findings are—. They were shared with us at the meeting between the Cabinet Secretary and the leaders, and they're the early indications coming out of the pause and review work. We're awaiting the final conclusions, and that's why we've caveated by saying they're early findings, because that work is still ongoing, as you'll appreciate, and we're waiting on the report.

By whom? By Wavehill, or—?

It's Wavehill and the local authorities working together, yes.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that clarity.

Thank you.

Alun, oedd unrhyw beth arall roeddech chi eisiau—? Na. Hapus? Ocê. Fe wnawn ni symud at Mick.

Just a few short questions about some of the economic impacts and some of the findings from the reports, so far, that we know. One of the suggestions, of course, is that the impact of grants has adversely impacted on other businesses within a broader region. Do you have any view on that or any evidence on that, or any concerns about whether there's been a distortion there?

In terms of displacement of activity from other areas—

Yes.

So, I would suggest that we wouldn't see that, partly because of the size of the grants available and the kinds of businesses that we're supporting. They don't really lend themselves to areas where we would be concerned about displacement. Actually, what we are seeing is additionality. So, a really good example is Decus Research Limited in Capel Hendre. They established a water testing lab, and they did that after the previous provider moved to England. So, essentially, they filled a local gap and were able to create opportunities for young scientific talent. I also had the real huge opportunity to open the Delineate Global Operations and Technology Centre in Llandysul, and that's the first tech firm of its kind in Ceredigion. There's really, really fantastic work going on there, and creating up to 50 jobs under a Wales-first recruitment policy, and they really are keen to grow their Welsh-speaking staff. So, rather than displacement, I do think that we're seeing additionality.

One of the most important things about Arfor is it's there to add value and it's there to augment what's already available through Business Wales, through those large interventions around the city and growth deals and so on, rather than be there to answer all of the economic questions of the area. But, I think, in terms of having that strong focus on additionality and creating jobs locally that support the Welsh language, I do think it's been successful.

And then, just to tie in a couple of themes from that, within the broader economic development programmes of Welsh Government and, I suppose, more broadly, where it really fits in with that, to what extent it perhaps marginalises the focus of Welsh language within economic development policy, as opposed to becoming an integral part of broader economic policy. Do you see that as a challenge? You know, the sort of view that, 'Well, we're funding this, we have these pilots, therefore we don't need to focus on it in the broader economic policy.' Whereas, it seems to me, that all the areas we have within the Welsh Government operation, whether it be from education to health to development to environment, et cetera, all should be integrating the issue of the Welsh language within them. But do you see this as having any sort of consequence? Or are there any particular lessons, from experience, that you would learn from that, things that you might do differently in the future?

I think 'Cymraeg 2050' really sits well with our economic policy. You're absolutely right that support for the Welsh language has to run through everything that we do. It can't just be one £11 million single economic programme; it has to sit at the heart of other interventions as well. So, when you look at the work around the free port in north Wales, for example, that has explicitly identified the opportunities to support the Welsh language, through interventions to grow and support the local economy in north Wales. Similarly, we've been having lots of discussions recently about the opportunities presented by Wylfa. Again, none of those conversations happen without a discussion about how we use that opportunity to support and grow the Welsh language in the area as well. So, I think that Arfor plays a really important role in augmenting and adding value to what already happens. But, absolutely, it shouldn't be seen as something that is separate to the core aims of supporting Welsh.

Can I just follow on, because you mentioned Wylfa? The issue of social mobility and movements of people and so on have a massive impact on language, and also on economic policy as well. How do you see the challenges, then, of some of the major investments that are going to be taking place that would be bringing in an enormous amount of movement of people from all over and so on, and the impact that that then has on economic policy and the current programmes and the current role in terms of consolidating the Welsh language within those areas? It seems to me that they're going to present enormous challenges. I was just wondering if you see any particular way or specific need to look ahead to how that might be challenged and dealt with.

So, alongside these huge opportunities—so, the AI growth zone being another of those, and, of course, all of the new investment that there'll be in offshore wind around the Welsh coast and so on—. All of that will create a large number of jobs, and we need to be ensuring that Welsh people are as best placed as possible to make the most of those opportunities. So, around Wylfa, for example, we've got a project board within Welsh Government. That brings the teams from right across Welsh Government together, because we know that housing is going to be critically important, healthcare and so on—all of those different teams. But at the heart of this as well is support for the Welsh language, and understanding, actually, when you have a large number of jobs created, there is the potential for a large number of people to be moving into an area, and actually how do we make sure that we support the Welsh language in that circumstance. Because I do know that's a concern for some people, and we have to just recognise that from the start and plan to support the Welsh language. There are ways that we can do that, I think, through procurement and through making sure that as much of the value stays in Wales as possible. Recently, we had a skills summit in north Wales. Again, that was looking at the opportunities around Wylfa, the AI growth zone and other recent announcements. Again, at the heart of that conversation was the need to ensure that we support and grow the Welsh language through those interventions as well. So, I don't think that any of this sits separately from those larger economic interventions, but Arfor, I think, plays a very specific role, and I think it's been successful in doing that.

I suppose the point is, isn't it, that economic investment, particularly on the scale that we saw with the impact of industrialisation in Wales, and the impacts there that were never really addressed—. In fact, the prohibition of the language, working underground and so on, had a very significant effect in changing the whole nature of the Welsh language within communities. But it has impact in terms of a massive impact on the demography of a particular area. Obviously, education is absolutely fundamental to it, but it also carries with it a major risk. I was just wondering whether you thought that there's a need for a very specific sort of Arfor strategy to try to, I suppose, adapt to those inevitable changes that will take place.

I think this will be a wider question, both for Arfor but also for Welsh Government, in terms of those major projects. But, for Arfor, in terms of the pause and reflect, I think that each of the Arfor schemes have sought to address slightly different things. Young people—. Actually, an opportunity for young people has been at the heart of it throughout. If there is a further Arfor scheme in future, then I think that that will be one of the questions that they'll want to grapple with, because, actually, the economic picture now is very different to that picture when Arfor was first imagined.

Okay. Thank you. I've concluded.

Thank you.

Diolch am hwnna.

I have Heledd and Gareth who want to come in on this. So, Heledd and then Gareth.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau gofyn—. O ran y genhadaeth economaidd, does yna ddim cyfeiriad o gwbl at y Gymraeg. Dwi'n sylweddoli mai'ch rhagflaenydd chi, Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, oedd yn gyfrifol am y ddogfen honno. Ydych chi'n edifarhau am hynny? Ydych chi'n credu ei bod hi'n wendid does yna ddim cyfeiriad o gwbl at y Gymraeg yn y genhadaeth honno?

I think 'Cymraeg 2050' sits right alongside the economic mission, but, equally, I think some of the things that Arfor was trying to achieve are very much at the heart of the economic mission—so, opportunities for young people to work—

But I'm asking—. There's no reference at all to the Welsh language in that, which was at odds with previous strategies. Given that Arfor was only meant to be for three years, do you regret that there's no reference to the Welsh language in that? Do you think it's something that should be addressed in the future?

So, I would think and hope that any future economic strategy would absolutely have a strong reference to the important role that the economy can play in supporting the Welsh language, and, actually, it can draw on the lessons of Arfor to do that.

Oeddech chi eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn hefyd?

Wel, dwi eisiau mynd nôl at y pwynt roedd Mick yn ei godi. So, ydych chi eisiau mynd at Gareth yn gyntaf?

Ocê. Ar hyn, ydy hi'n ocê os ydyn ni'n mynd at Gareth?

Ydy, wrth gwrs.

A wedyn fe wnawn ni ddod nôl at hwnna. Ocê. Gareth, roeddech chi eisiau—

Thank you. I just want to drill a bit more down in terms of what it means in practice in terms of support around the economic policies and business support. We talk about highly skilled jobs in the west of Wales, Wylfa being one of them, the very highly skilled, niche areas. So, in terms of delivery, and what that means in practice, what would be your ambitions in that sense from the Welsh Government in terms of what you would want, how that would transpire in terms of reality? Because, obviously, because it's niche, you're not going to automatically attract people from that local area in terms of those jobs, because they require certain skills in order to do them. So, in that sense, where does it lie? Is it in terms of education, is it guidance? What would that look like to a business or an employer in terms of expanding the Welsh language? Does it become a statutory requirement? Does it become something that they can come into on a collegiate level, or where does it lie in terms of how the Welsh Government views its ambition to see those things transpire into reality in terms of economic policy and how we can embed it within those sorts of systems in that sense?

So, I think that the work that's happening through Business Wales already is really important, and I'll perhaps ask Duncan to say a bit more about that.

I think that Wylfa's a really good way of describing what you're talking to. We know that the Wylfa project—3,000 people employed on site at its peak. So, it's a different context to the original Horizon project. We also know the final investment decision is around 2030, with energy production around 2035.

So, in terms of opportunity, the Cabinet Secretary and I were both at the launch at Coleg Llandrillo when we were surrounded by 16, 17-year-olds looking for an opportunity to stay on the island. And why that's important—. At a recent visit to Hinkley, everywhere I went I could hear Welsh voices, and indeed got introduced. They were introduced as apprentices from the old Horizon project, but they're now kind of 35, so it was a bit strange, but the point was they were all saying, ‘We are wanting to return. We’re from Anglesey. We want to return. When is this happening?’ type of thing. And I'd say the same of the college students. We need to be able to provide that runway of opportunity. So, actually it does work for them, because 2030, 2035, by the time they get through their education—. We have to show that really clear runway.

Indeed, the Cabinet Secretary, I think this morning or yesterday, has approved some further support that we're going to do specifically around supply chain with Wylfa, so we can build capacity and readiness for those opportunities, and indeed, linked to the experience of Arfor, how do we provide opportunity for those young people in those communities, heavily Welsh-speaking—I guess it would be 80 per cent plus Welsh language in Coleg Llandrillo. So, we are starting to understand those links, and that's where Arfor’s really helped us to understand that balance of pure economic developments, but also the kind of cultural elements you need to put alongside those.

Ocê, diolch. Rydych chi wedi bod yn amyneddgar iawn. Roeddech chi eisiau dod nôl ar rywbeth oedd Alun yn ei ddweud.

Roeddwn i'n jest meddwl am bwynt oedd Mick yn ei godi.

And just to say that the debate that Mick was pointing to is an international debate, not just a Welsh debate. If you look at other parts of the world where a lesser used language sits cheek by jowl with a dominant language, whether that's Estonian and Russian, whether it's Catalonian and Castilian, then these debates about in- and out-migration and the impact of major economic developments in bringing populations to them, these are debates you'll find well beyond Wales. In some ways I think we are well placed—. Because of the links that we have with some of those other nations and the work that our international division do there, we're well placed to draw on those wider discussions to help us address some of the issues when they occur in a Welsh context, as they certainly are going to occur in a major project like Wylfa.

I attended the Celtic forum meeting recently, and that was a really good opportunity as well for us actually to share in Wales what we're doing. Colleagues from across the Celtic nations were really, really keen to understand our approach to the Welsh language and to learn from us, and Arfor is a really good example that we were able to share with them.

Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni i droi at Heledd.

Jest i adeiladu ar hynny, oherwydd mae'n amlwg bod Arfor wedi dod i ben. Mae gyda ni'r cyfnod yma o adlewyrchu. Ffigur cymharol fach o fuddsoddiad oedd yr £11 miliwn hwnnw, os ydych chi'n edrych hyd yn oed ar fargeinion twf a faint o gyllid—. Felly, mewn ffordd, gwnaeth o gyflawni gwyrthiau, os ydych chi'n edrych ar rai o'r pethau yma, ar gyllid bach iawn, mewn gwirionedd, o ran twf economaidd.

Dwi'n meddwl mai un o'r pethau mae gennym ni ddiddordeb ynddo, o ran y Llywodraeth nesaf, ydy beth ydy'ch argymhellion chi go iawn o ran beth rydym ni wedi'i ddysgu o Arfor sydd wedi efallai dylanwadu ar sut rydych chi'n edrych ar strategaeth economaidd i Gymru gyfan. Mae Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros y Gymraeg wedi sôn yn aml ynglŷn â'r pwysigrwydd—. Yn amlwg, rydym ni eisiau cadw'r Gymraeg fel iaith fyw yn y cymunedau lle mae hi'n iaith fwyafrifol, yn dal i fod, ond, yn amlwg, rydym ni eisiau i fusnesau ledled Cymru fod yn defnyddio'r Gymraeg. Mae'r ffaith eich bod chi efallai wedi dibynnu ar Arfor i wneud y gwaith twf economaidd hwnnw a pheidio â rhoi cyfeiriad at y Gymraeg yn y genhadaeth economaidd—. Dwi jest eisiau deall sut rydym ni'n mynd i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn ganolog i bopeth a'i bod hi hefyd ddim drwy 'mainstream-io', yn golygu dim ffocws ar y cadarnleoedd, ond ein bod ni hefyd yn gallu dysgu rhai o'r gwersi hynny mewn rhannau eraill o Gymru. Felly, dwi jest eisiau deall lle rydych chi'n gweld y Gymraeg o hyn ymlaen mewn strategaeth economaidd sy'n mynd rhagddi. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod Arfor wedi dylanwadu ar hynny?

So, I think one of the things that we have learned from Arfor is the importance of targeted economic investment, and specifically through Arfor I have in mind Galeri in Caernarfon and also Yr Egin in Carmarthenshire. I think both of those have been really, really important in terms of providing a kind of hub where Welsh language enterprise can grow from. I think that perhaps we could certainly do with more of that across Wales, and have those opportunities that provide a magnet, really, for entrepreneurship and for local growth for businesses through the Welsh language. I think those are both really good examples that we could certainly see more of.

Os ydym ni'n edrych yn benodol o ran y bargeinion dinesig, mae gwaith ymchwil yn awgrymu mai prin ydy'r ystyriaeth sy'n cael ei roi i'r iaith wrth iddyn nhw ddatblygu eu strategaethau. Felly, dwi jest eisiau deall a ydych chi'n credu y dylai fod yna fwy o ystyriaeth i'r Gymraeg yn hynny. Oes yna bethau, drwy Arfor, y byddech chi'n deisyfu eu gweld yn dod drwyddo'n gryfach? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae yna lot fwy o arian yn gysylltiedig â'r bargeinion dinesig na oedd yna efo Arfor hefyd.

Yes, so I was concerned—. I know that the committee's had some evidence around the growth deals, and so I've talked to the team about this. I'll obviously wait to see what the committee says, but I think it's something I would want to raise directly with the city and growth deals. That said, lots of the individuals who are involved with Arfor are the same individuals who are involved with the city and growth deals, so they will be aware of the importance and the approach of Arfor and the fact that there is a read-across.

Some of the growth deals—. Certainly the north Wales growth deal does explicitly recognise bilingualism as an economic asset, and it reflects, of course, that the Welsh language is a really important part of the cultural and economic identity of the area. But if there's more that we can be doing to ensure that Welsh language considerations are given more of a spotlight through the growth deals, I'm more than happy to be raising those points.

Diolch. Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae Comisiynydd y Gymraeg wedi bod yn eithaf cadarn o ran hyn, felly byddwn i yn gobeithio y bydd hynny'n dylanwadu felly.

O ran sicrhau wedyn sut rydym ni'n sicrhau dydy bargeinion dinesig ddim yn tanseilio mentrau economaidd sy'n cael eu cyflawni drwy Arfor, mae jest i'w weld i mi fod yna weithiau disconnect bach rhwng y rhain ac Arfor, a'r hyn sydd i'w weld yn dod drwodd yn y gwaith ymchwil ydy efallai fod rhai pethau efo buddsoddiad sylweddol yn gweld yr iaith Gymraeg fel rhywbeth ymylol yn hytrach na'n ganolog. Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros y Gymraeg, roeddech chi'n sôn yn gynharach ynglŷn â'r sifft sydd wedi bod. Ydych chi'n credu bod yna yn dal gwaith pellach i fynd i bobl wir ddeall nid ein bod ni'n trio cadw'r cadarnleoedd yn gadarnleoedd, ond bod yna werth economaidd i'r Gymraeg, hefyd?

Ie, wel, dyna oedd pwrpas gwreiddiol Arfor: i berswadio pobl o'r ffaith bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn rhywbeth sy'n gallu creu cyfleoedd economaidd. Mae'n un o'n cryfderau ni, nid rhywbeth sydd yn ein ffordd rhag datblygu’n economaidd. Dwi'n siŵr bod mwy o waith i'w wneud, ond o beth dwi wedi gweld, mae'r ddadl wedi symud ymlaen. Pan dwi mas yn siarad gyda phrosiectau Perthyn ac yn y blaen, mae'n naturiol nawr i bobl feddwl am y posibiliadau economaidd sy'n dod pan rŷch chi'n gallu rhoi gwasanaethau trwy gyfrwng yr iaith Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg hefyd. Pan rŷch chi yn y cadarnleoedd, mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn rhywbeth naturiol o ran sut rŷch chi'n meddwl am ddatblygu busnesau ac yn y blaen.

Pwynt arall yw dwi'n meddwl bod gwahaniaeth rhwng pobl ifanc nawr a phobl ifanc pan oeddwn i'n tyfu lan yng Nghaerfyrddin. Dwi'n siŵr bod fy rhieni a fy nhad-cu yn meddwl mai Cymraeg oedd iaith y teulu, yr iaith pan oeddech chi'n siarad gyda chymdogion ac yn y blaen, ond pan oeddech chi'n mynd mas i'r byd swyddogol, roeddech chi'n troi at y Saesneg. Dyna oedd y ffordd naturiol i'w wneud e. Dwi'n meddwl nawr, i bobl ifanc sydd wedi dod drwy addysg trwy gyfrwng yr iaith Gymraeg, fod agweddau yn wahanol. Mae mwy i'w wneud, ond dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n ennill tir nid yn colli tir yn y ddadl yma.

If I may, just looking at the recent investment summit, Cabinet Secretary, how did the Welsh language feature in that? How much of a feature was it that we have, in many parts of Wales, bilingual communities, because, Cabinet Secretary, for the Welsh language referenced, there are parallels with other parts of the world? Do you see it as a plus when we're selling Wales that we do have this bilingual workforce?

Absolutely. I think that it is part of our Welsh offer. When people came to Wales to find out what we could offer, they wanted to find out about Wales, more so than particularly just what we can offer on the economy side of things. Actually, what we can offer is a fantastic culture, fantastic heritage, and I think that our language is part of our identity, and it's part of the attraction to Wales. We had people come into Wales from almost 30 different countries across the globe. Almost all of those are going to be bilingual countries, so they operate in more than one language naturally. I think that it doesn't faze international businesses and investors when they are presented with a country that is working in two languages. I think it's an asset.

I wasn't asking if it fazed them, I was asking whether you picked up that they saw it as an advantage compared to England that, for instance, we are a bilingual nation.

I think it's certainly an asset, and I think it's something that excites people about Wales as well. It makes us different, and it's something that I think we need to—. And we do, I think, to be fair, through Visit Wales and so on—. We had our first Visit Wales Welsh language campaign last year, 'come and feel the hwyl'. I think that was probably our most successful campaign. It had international reach. People got it and people really enjoyed it and leaned into it. So, I think that we should use it as an asset, because it is an asset.

Diolch am hwnna. Cyn inni symud at Gareth, mae Alun eisiau dod mewn.

Following on from that question, I think the Welsh Government does promote the Welsh language and Wales as a bilingual country, but I'm not sure that it's fully holistic sometimes or joined up. I was in the embassy in Washington last year talking to Welsh Government staff, and I wish you'd be less shy about the success of our international office network. I think it's one of the great successes of Welsh Government over the last decade or so, the work that's been done there. We really need to trumpet that, I think. They were certainly promoting Wales as a bilingual country and as a bilingual community, if you like. That is something that stands out, particularly in that market in North America. But also, then, it's making it a reality when we come home, if you like. That offer to tourism, that offer to investors, that offer to ourselves as a people is that of the holistic Wales brand. The Irish do it remarkably well, the Scots do it very well, and I think sometimes we do it very, very well but in silos. And I'm just wondering whether we've got lessons to learn there about bringing these things together and doing it more holistically.

We've certainly done some research work, actually, on a 'made in Wales' brand. The Irish version is tremendously successful, so there has been some work done on that and what the value could be, particularly for businesses. Because, actually, as Welsh people, we like to buy Welsh, and so sometimes we just need it to be easily identifiable on the shelves and so on. So, some work has been done, but nothing has been launched in that space yet.

Diolch am hwnna. Ydych chi eisiau dod i mewn?

Jest un peth.

I do think sometimes we under-appreciate how special Wales looks to people from outside, because we're here all the time and we see it all the time, don't we? But sometimes that sense of identity, that Wales is not just another anonymous spot on the face of a globalised world—. If you come to Wales, if you bring your business to Wales, you're not just getting the economic things that come with it, but you're getting a sense of being somewhere different. If we're swapping embassy stories, I met Clwb Hiraeth in the embassy in Tokyo. Clwb Hiraeth is a club of Japanese people who spent part of their career working in Wales and they get together regularly just to remember the experience that they had here and how special Wales was. And making sure that we appreciate that enough to make it part of our economic offer is, I think, really important. The language is obviously very important, but it's more than language, it's geography, it's history, it's culture, it's all the things that we live every day because we're here, and people come from outside to see with different sort of eyes, and it really matters to them.

Diolch. Mae Heledd eisiau dod i mewn.

You're not going to get us disagreeing with that, but I guess it just begs the question, again, why the Welsh language doesn't feature in the mission for the economy currently, given everything that you've outlined there. And also with Arfor, we're still a year on from that scheme coming to an end, and we don't know how that's going to be progressed, or seeing that, actually, it worked, so we're going to increase that investment. I'm just really unclear, given everything we've looked at, where the Welsh language features in the economy strategy, how Arfor has helped shape that and what happens next from Arfor. Maybe it's a reflection more than anything, but, yes, I just can't see, if it's not in the mission for the economy, how that's substantiated within Government strategy.

But the economic mission doesn't sit separately from our other overarching strategies as Government, including 'Cymraeg 2050'. And we are already trying to embed the learning from Arfor, so Duncan's talked about some of the work that we're doing through Business Wales; we're also now providing more bilingual workshops. We've got the Welsh language for your business online support service module, and also links to Helo Blod for translation and branding support as well, so some of these things are already happening. I know that all of us, perhaps on a party political basis, will be paying close attention to what else we can learn from Arfor, because what comes next, I suppose, is up to parties and up to the next Government to decide. But I hope that what Arfor has been able to do—. And let's remember, it was only ever in the first instance intended to be around testing different approaches, piloting different approaches, and I think, in terms of doing that and being able to provide experiences that we can reflect on to determine something for the future, it's been really successful and quite instructive.

Thank you for that. Gareth to lead us in our final questions.

Obviously, we talk about economic prospects, and I've long been an advocate for that to be grown in Wales, but, obviously, what we can't achieve as much as we'd like is presence on an international stage. I always come at it from promoting things like tourism, through expanding the efficacy of Visit Wales, for example, without Government intervention. But how do we marry that also with British culture as well, because we talk about—? Obviously, Welsh culture is very important, but also we've got to remember we are part of the United Kingdom, so how does that tie in, in your view, with being a successful 'made in Britain' and Wales economy? Because we've got to face the facts that we don't make much anymore compared with what we used to. [Interruption.] We very much rely on a service economy. Let's be real. So, how do we do that within the realities of the economy that we are essentially living in?

Specifically on Arfor, if there are any reflections that you had on that.

There's lots to unpick there. Just very briefly, I would highlight the importance of our growing advanced manufacturing space. So, that was something that was really important in the international investment summit. It's one of the key sectors that we're working on jointly with the UK Government in relation to the industrial strategy. But to bring it back to Arfor, advanced manufacturing—lots of that would potentially be in the supply-chain space for nuclear, and, again, that brings us back to those trying to close that loop to Arfor and the Welsh language.

But then I also want to say how important our international offices are. It's already been recognised today. All but one of those are co-located with UK Government international offices. So, in that sense, it's really important that the UK Government is also selling Wales. One of your sister committees has been doing an inquiry into inward investment. In that, we looked at our international offices, and I was able to set out some more detail of the work that we're doing jointly with the UK Government to promote Wales.

We do great work promoting Wales and the Welsh language as part of that, but we've always said that we want to see the UK Government doing more to promote Wales as part of its British promotion abroad.

And did you have those conversations with the UK Government in terms of how that's delivered at ground level and ensuring that its efficacy is delivered on that basis?

Yes. So, the UK Government, I know, has been talking about brand Wales, and we're really keen that that doesn't duplicate what we're doing in Wales, because we think that our Cymru-Wales brand is already actually very strong. So, we've been doing lots of work over many years, and, actually, if you attend any of the international expos, for example, that we take businesses to right across the globe, our stand is spectacular. It really does look fantastic, and it draws people to it. Inevitably, then, those conversations then lead to business and to jobs being created in Wales. So, that brand is really, really strong. But we're keen to continue to work with the UK Government to ensure that they promote Wales fully abroad as well. Sorry for going off Arfor, but—

No, no, it's fine. Heledd, you had one final question in the last minute and a half.

Roeddwn i jest eisiau deall sut mae'r gwaith rhwng is-adran y Gymraeg a'r adran economi yn gweithio yn benodol o ran mynd â'r dysgu o Arfor yn ei flaen, a'r hyn dŷch chi'n eu gweld fel y camau nesaf dŷch chi'n gweithio arnyn nhw rŵan, ond y cysylltiad yna rhwng y ddwy adran.

Operationally, we are linked, so, for example, on the business support side, the Welsh department fund our specific Welsh language answer-the-phone service, if you like, and a lot of our online support tools are delivered jointly. So, in effect, we are operating as one. It's kind of representative of the way that we're sat here together in that provision. So, we are really looking to always mainstream and work together in a collaborative way.

Going back to the economic mission, implicit in what we do is that 'Cymraeg 2050'—we're trying to build that in through everything we do and build on the experience of Arfor to mainstream it.

If it's helpful, just in terms of how that works, as the director with responsibility for the Welsh language, I am part of the economic strategy board. I'm part of the Wylfa programme board. Just coming as someone who's relatively new to the Welsh Government, that has been a really important structural way to ensure that 'Cymraeg 2050' isn't divorced from the wider economic agenda. Just to echo what the Cabinet Secretary was saying, I think one of the very first conversations that Duncan and I were in was about Wylfa and the way in which we looked right from the beginning at the impact on the Welsh language, potentially, and seeing it as an opportunity to strengthen Cymraeg in its heartlands, rather than as a risk to be managed. So, I think that that reflects the mainstreaming of 'Cymraeg 2050' into the wider work of economic colleagues, to put Cymraeg in at the—. And I think that that probably reflects the experience of Arfor—it's building on that approach.

Diolch am hwnna. Mae hwnna'n nodyn eithriadol o ddefnyddiol i ni gau arno fe. Yn anffodus, mae amser wedi ein trechu ni. Roedd efallai ychydig o gwestiynau ychwanegol roedden ni eisiau eu gofyn. A fyddai hi'n iawn i ni ysgrifennu atoch chi gyda'r rheini? Bydd transgript hefyd o'r hyn rydych chi wedi ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi ichi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg. Felly, i un o'n Hysgrifenyddion Cabinet, rydyn ni'n dweud, 'Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi a byddwn ni mewn cysylltiad'; i'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet arall, rydyn ni'n dweud, 'Fe wnawn ni eich gweld chi mewn 10 munud ar gyfer sesiwn arall.' Ond diolch yn fawr iawn i bob un ohonoch chi am y dystiolaeth y bore yma. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Aelodau, fe wnawn ni gymryd egwyl fer o naw munud.