Children, Young People, and Education Committee

Diolch. First of all, I need to declare that I'm a member of the Wales committee for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, and also I was co-opted for a couple of years to Careers Wales. It's deeply concerning, isn't it, when you look? There have been various reports that suggest that there are fewer young people participating either in employment, education or training at post 16, particularly, obviously, at post 18 in Wales. I don't think that we know the causes of that. There are lots of questions, and I'm sure that's why you want to get to the bottom of this today. We're obviously going to look at a range of factors, including access to education for those young people who are either by virtue of being from a disadvantaged group, or that they are disabled young people, more likely to be NEET—that's not in employment, education or training. So, I think there are a lot of questions today that, hopefully, we'll explore. But accessibility also includes transport—can young people get to the right place? And, obviously, it's really important to look at whether there are options available for every young person to encourage them to stay in school or college.

Thank you. My next question is for NASUWT. In your written submission, you state that the quality and nature of information provided to learners is varied. Why do you think this is, and what is the impact of this on learners when making decisions about their options after year 11?

The variance tends to be related to demography and geography, in the sense that there's a difference or a variance in the information provided according to the geographical location, primarily because, obviously, in the more populous areas of the country, the range of options available in terms of post-16 provision is all the more abundant than in rural areas. And so, associated with that abundance of opportunities, whether they be further education colleges, tertiary colleges or, I'll say, traditional sixth-form provision within secondary schools, you then have more support and information provided by the various bodies who provide this information, be it in-house or in-school careers advice or from outside agencies.

And then conversely, in the rural areas, because of the, not scarcity, but because there's a narrower range of provision naturally, because they're less populous areas, with fewer industries and so on and so forth that would provide the experience, the work experience and the options thereof to move forward, then you naturally get this variance in provision and support in terms of what choices there are post 16. And then the choices themselves, obviously, vary according to demography, because obviously the more populous the area, the more choices there are in terms of what you can attend, and, conversely, the fewer choices there are, the more rural the area is. You may have only one secondary school, or maybe there's one tertiary college that provides for a cluster of secondary schools and whatnot.

Thank you. Statistics provided to us from Parentkind show that 39 per cent of parents in Wales with a young person in secondary or post-16 education agree that their child's school or college helps them to explore a broad range of career possibilities. This is compared to 46 per cent of parents in England, 49 per cent of parents in Scotland, and 53 per cent of parents in Northern Ireland. Why do you think the figure is much lower in Wales than other parts of the UK? I'll open that question to anyone. Mary.

Yes, obviously it's really difficult to comment on other parts of the UK, but I think that there's definitely more that we could do to support careers advice, isn't there? Our members tell us that there used to be a much better system in terms of Careers Wales supporting schools with work experience, so we've definitely got to look at that in terms of the way that Careers Wales has pulled back from that. Obviously, there are funding issues, but, from a schools' perspective, they're not necessarily the experts at making sure that young people have those work experiences. It's really about the support that's there, isn't it?

Did anybody else want to—?

Ie, gwnaf ateb yn Gymraeg, diolch. Mae’n thema y down ni nôl ati, dwi’n siŵr, ond mae’r gystadleuaeth sydd yn y system yn peri gofid yn hyn o beth. Ac wrth gwrs, mae’r gystadleuaeth yn codi o’r ffaith bod ariannu yn y fantol yn fan hyn, ac yn amlwg, o ran ysgolion, fel rydych chi wedi clywed eisoes, mae’n siŵr, ac mi fyddwch chi’n clywed eto, mae ysgolion yn cynnig y ddarpariaeth sydd ganddyn nhw i’r disgyblion lle bod hynny’n bosibl. Felly, maen nhw’n awyddus iawn i gael disgyblion i ddod yn ôl i’r chweched dosbarth os ydy o’n addas iddyn nhw wneud.

Felly, hyn a hyn o gefnogaeth—. Fel mae Mary wedi sôn, y gwasanaeth gyrfaoedd, mae'r hyn maen nhw’n ei gynnig wedi lleihau dros y blynyddoedd. Oes yna ffyrdd mwy effeithiol o wneud hyn? Dwi ddim yn siŵr. Ond mae’r broblem sydd gennym ni o ran y gystadleuaeth yma a sicrhau bod niferoedd ysgolion yn iach er mwyn derbyn yr ariannu yn milwrio yn erbyn unrhyw gydgordio effeithiol yn y maes. Efallai y bydd Medr yn help yn hyn o beth.

Dwi wedi bod yn cefnogi aelodau mewn ysgol yn yr wythnos ddiwethaf yma oherwydd eu bod nhw’n wynebu diswyddiadau—gorfodol, efallai—a’r prif reswm ydy’r lleihad yn y nifer sy’n mynd i’r chweched dosbarth. Ac felly mae gennym ni storm berffaith yn hynny o beth. Y peth olaf y maen nhw’n mynd i’w wneud ydy annog y rheini sydd â chyfle da i wneud Safon Uwch i lefel dda—dydyn nhw ddim yn mynd i’w hannog nhw i fynd i wneud dim byd arall, nac ydyn? Ac yn amlwg mae’r strwythur yna yn glir.

Felly, mae’n rhaid i ni ofyn cwestiynau am natur y gystadleuaeth, ac efallai, yn fwy eang, natur y ddarpariaeth a'r ysgolion sydd gennym ni. Ydy’r hyn sy’n cael ei gynnig ar hyn o bryd yn ddigonol i’r unfed ganrif ar hugain? Ond mater arall ydy hynny.

Os caf i ategu beth oedd Ioan yn ei ddweud, y model neu'r strwythur sy’n bodoli ar y funud yng Nghymru, buasai’n werth i’r pwyllgor, efallai, graffu ar hynny. Hynny ydy, y patrwm sydd wedi datblygu dros y blynyddoedd—nid ym mhob man, ond mewn lot o ardaloedd, yn sicr yn y gogledd-orllewin a’r gogledd-ddwyrain—ydy symud i ffwrdd o’r sefyllfa draddodiadol lle buasai yna arlwy ôl-16 yn cael ei gyflwyno gan ysgolion, i strwythur lle mae’r ysgolion i gyd yn newid i fod yn ysgolion 11 i 16, ac mae disgyblion traddodiadol y chweched dosbarth, os liciwch chi, yn cael eu haddysg mewn hwb neu mewn canolfan drydyddol sydd efallai yn ganolog i’r clwstwr, fel roeddwn i’n dweud ynghynt.

Ac mae’r ysgolion sy’n dal i fodoli efo chweched dosbarth, fel roedd Ioan yn ei ddweud, wedyn yn gweld eu hunain mewn cystadleuaeth i ddal gafael ar eu disgyblion, am resymau amlwg, dwi’n gobeithio. Y mwy o ddisgyblion sydd gennych chi, y mwy o gyllid sydd gennych chi, ac felly’r mwy o ddiogelwch swyddi sydd yn bodoli. Mae hyd yn oed yr ysgolion sydd efo chweched dosbarth yn dechrau erydu oherwydd diffyg nifer y staff sy'n medru cynnig amrediad o gyrsiau, sy'n golygu bod ysgolion rŵan yn dechrau cydweithio efo'i gilydd. Felly, mi fydd ysgolion cyfagos sydd efo chweched dosbarth efallai'n cydweithio efo'i gilydd fel, rhyngddyn nhw, fod ganddyn nhw amrediad o arlwy.

Felly, efallai y buasai'n ddiddorol gweld ymchwil ar sut mae strwythur addysg ôl-16 wedi datblygu dros y 15, 20 mlynedd diwethaf, jest i weld a ydy hwnnw yn wahanol iawn i beth sydd yn Lloegr a'r Alban, ac a oes yna ryw fath o correlation rhwng y symud yma o'r, mi wnaf ddweud 'traddodiadol', ysgolion 11 i 18, i rywbeth sydd wedi cael ei sefydlu yn fwy ardalol. Tybed a ydy hwnnw wedi cael effaith, ys gwn i.

Thank you. And my final question: what would your ideal model of the careers advice for pupils in schools and colleges look like, and do you think there's an age that careers advice should start? I'll open that to everyone again. Yes, Mary.

So, it's got to be really clear that we're encouraging children and young people to understand the jobs market, because, at the moment, the figures suggest that, at 24, we've got the highest number of not in education, employment and training for young people, apart from the disabled young people, which I'm sure we'll get to. But at 24, there's 20 per cent of young people who are NEET. So, I think it's worth asking the question: young people leaving school, what sort of jobs are they going into? Are they getting that trade union education so that they know what good jobs look like and how to join a trade union? How do we make sure there's secure employment there, and that we're not encouraging where children and young people don't want to go—we're not encouraging people into insecure work simply because it is work? Because then we might be increasing the number of young people who are NEET at the age of 24, and where it seems possible that we aren't leaving open that adult education so that it's really easy to go back into education. I think that's really important. So, from our perspective, it would be looking at the types of jobs that young people are doing, and I don't know if we've got that information.

Okay, thank you.

Mae'r Cwricwlwm i Gymru, wrth gwrs, yn edrych ar fyd gwaith ac yn gofyn i ddisgyblion ystyried gwahanol feysydd mewn gwahanol ffyrdd. A ddylai hynny fod yn ddigonol? Hynny ydy, dydy'r gwasanaeth gyrfaoedd ddim fel y bu yn y gorffennol, yn amlwg; does yna ddim cyllid yna. Ond mae'n bwysig bod yna drafodaethau unigol yn digwydd o oed reit gynnar yn yr ysgol uwchradd, wrth gwrs, ond mae angen inni sicrhau hefyd fod y llwybrau yna yn glir o'r cychwyn cyntaf.

Dwi'n trafod efo pobl sy'n ymwneud â'r byd diwydiant yn y gogledd-ddwyrain ac mae yna bryder ganddyn nhw nad oes yna bobl ifanc yn awyddus i fynd ati i fwrw prentisiaeth ac ati, ac efallai fod hynny yn rhan o'r peth—does yna ddim gwybodaeth ddigonol yn cael ei dosbarthu mewn ysgolion. Ond efallai fod ceisio cynnal mwy o berthynas efo'r byd diwydiant, byd gwaith yn gyffredinol, a sicrhau mewnbwn yn ein hysgolion drwy'r gwasanaeth gyrfaoedd—dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn un ffordd y dylem ni ei hystyried. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'r pwysau o ran amser Cwricwlwm i Gymru yn golygu mai ond hyn a hyn o amser sydd yna i wneud unrhyw beth, cymaint ydy'r gofyn ar y disgyblion, neu bydd y gofyn ar y disgyblion, a chymaint yw'r gofyn ar yr athrawon, yn sicr.

Mae'r aelodau yn dweud wrthym ni y dyddiau yma fod cyngor gyrfaoedd yn dal yn elfen bwysig iawn, ac o bosib ei fod o angen digwydd ynghynt nag sydd yn digwydd yn draddodiadol. Yn draddodiadol, mae o'n digwydd ar ddiwedd blwyddyn 9 ar gyfer TGAU a thu hwnt, ond yr awgrym ydy ei fod o angen cael ei gynnig lawer ynghynt, fel ei fod o o leiaf yn cael ei sefydlu fel rhywbeth arferol a rhywbeth efelychol. Ac yn ddiddorol, mae'r aelodau hefyd yn dweud bod cymaint o wybodaeth—wnaf i ddim dweud 'cyngor', efallai—am yrfaoedd. Mae dysgwyr heddiw yn pigo pethau i fyny o'r cyfryngau cymdeithasol, gan eu cyfoedion, sydd bron â gwneud i chi feddwl a ydy'r cyngor gyrfaol sydd yn draddodiadol yn bodoli angen ei newid. Ond beth rydym ni hefyd wedi ei ffeindio—mae hyn yn bwynt pwysig—ydy bod disgyblion ag anghenion ychwanegol yn ddibynnol iawn ar y cyngor gyrfaol traddodiadol, os liciwch chi, am amryw o resymau. Maen nhw yn gweld mwy o fudd o gael sgwrs un i un efo unigolyn yn hytrach na thrafod efo'u cyfoedion neu drafod mewn dosbarth llawn ac yn y blaen.

A'r ail bwynt y buaswn i'n ei wneud ydy ei bod hi'n bwysig bod yna gydraddoldeb o ran llwybrau addysg yn bodoli yng Nghymru. Hynny ydy, ac mi wnaf i fynd yn ôl i'r pwynt gwreiddiol oedd gen i, efo'r gymhareb rhwng yr ardaloedd gwledig a'r ardaloedd mwy diwydiannol eu natur. Mewn ardaloedd lle mae yna ddigon o arlwy ar gael, mae'r llwybrau addysg, o'r ysgol, o'r ysgol gynradd, ymlaen, trwodd i addysg bellach a thu hwnt yn eithaf amlwg a chlir, oherwydd bod y sefydliadau allan yn fanna o'ch blaen chi. Ac wedyn mae'r diwydiant a'r cyswllt diwydiant allan yn fanna o'ch blaen chi. Dydy hynny ddim cweit mor wir mewn ardaloedd gwledig, lle oherwydd y natur roeddwn i'n sôn amdano ynghynt, lle mae chweched dosbarth efallai wedi ei glystyru mewn colegau trydyddol neu mewn addysg bellach, dydy llwybrau addysg ddim mor amlwg, a dydy'r llwybrau sy'n eich galluogi chi i gamu o addysg i ddiwydiant—boed yn brentisiaeth, fel roedd Ioan yn ei ddweud, neu unrhyw fath o arlwy gwahanol—ddim mor amlwg, ac efallai ddim mor amlwg oherwydd nad ydyn nhw'n bodoli yna oherwydd y diffyg amrediad o ddewisiadau sydd yna.

Felly, mae cyngor gyrfaol yn dal i fod yn bwysig, ond dwi'n meddwl bod angen efallai ei addasu fo i fod yn fwy perthnasol i'r sefyllfa sydd ohoni yn y Gymru fodern, ond hefyd ei addasu fo i gyfarch y gwahaniaethau sy'n bodoli ar draws y wlad.

Thank you. Carolyn, please.

I think the questions arise because, very often, children start to think about their careers when they're looking at their choices for GCSEs. So, we were thinking—. And teachers, especially a teacher that maybe a child, a younger child, at primary school level, is attached to—in a way, they see them as their main contact at school, don't they; they're so influential. Or parents—very often, parents might direct a child into a career. So, that's why we were asking the question, really. Do you think, maybe earlier than GCSE level, advice should be given to children maybe—I know teachers are very busy, but through schools? Because they're very often that contact. If there's a careers adviser in school, they might not know about them or go to them; it's that trusted person that's giving them that educational time that they build that relationship with, or their parents—that seems to be the way forward at the moment. That's what we're hearing. So, I think that's why we were asking that question.

The question is, of course, is it direct career advice that is needed, or do we introduce, in primary schools, the practice of having various speakers come in? I'm sure various people working in factories, engineers, policemen, come in and have a discussion with the children. It's not necessarily career-based advice, is it? But I think the world of work is something that perhaps they do need to be introduced to earlier than secondary school, but not specifically for themselves.

If I can add on to that as well, should careers advice be a bolt-on, a tag-on thing that's stuck on extra, or should it be intrinsic to the Curriculum for Wales, and should be part of the weave, as Ioan was saying? I know in north-east Wales, for example, Airbus is a massive employer there, and Airbus are constantly in and out of schools doing various things, not necessarily career related, but they're there, they're physically there, and therefore they're visual and they're seen as—or that kind of career or the world of work is seen as—a visible thing from early on in areas. And I know it's the same elsewhere in the country. So, rather than careers advice be something you stick on as an extra thing when they're doing their choices, as it is now, possibly, or as it used to be, perhaps it should be intrinsically woven into the fabric of the curriculum.

Thank you. We'll now move on to some questions from Natasha, please.

Thank you so much, Chair. Good morning, everyone. My first couple of questions are going to be targeted at Mr Amlyn, and I hope that's okay. Your paper says that the schools with six forms will predominantly promote their own subjects over FE establishments, so to retain learners and therefore retain the associated finance that comes with it. So, how do you feel that schools can be encouraged to put their pupils' interests above their own?

It's a very good question. It's a reflection of the state of affairs in terms of finance in schools in Wales, isn't it? And as Ioan said earlier on in this meeting, the number of pupils, the bums on seats, essentially, dictates the budget of the school, and there is pressure on teachers from up above to ensure that pupil numbers don't fall. So, teachers will naturally do their best, especially at year 11, six-form boundaries, to try and retain as many pupils as possible. And it's done in a positive way, in the sense that the courses of the school—the A-level courses and whatnot of the school—are promoted and are shown to be a useful stepping-stone to higher education or training or whatever else. But that's not to say that these schools, because of the self-beneficial nature of retaining kids—it doesn't mean they don't engage with FE colleges and tertiary centres, because they do. FE colleges and tertiary institutions do have a foothold in these schools, they do come in and do give their presentations and show the wide range.

As I mentioned earlier, what schools do also to counter—not to counter, but to try and give a wider range to learners and keep them on site, as it were, is to collaborate with other schools nearby, so that between maybe three or four secondary schools close together, the A-level provision and other course provision they have is as wide as possible, and the commute is as small as possible.

Can you confidently say that there is equality in this belief and, I should say, can-do attitude, when it comes to that collaboration? Because the frustration I have is that I've actually gone to a lot of schools, I've visited colleges and, quite frankly, there isn't that desire for many schools to let their students go to colleges, because they do feel—. And even some children—and I'll be honest with you, I was one of them; I was never put in the direction of college. I was very much focused and pushed towards continuing my A-levels, staying in school, being there and present, and I feel that a lot of children are missing out on some great opportunities to potentially learn how to become a mechanic, a beautician et cetera, and are being taken away from other vocational subjects because the schools just want to retain them for the numbers.

Yes, absolutely. Whilst you're in your school, it's in your local area, the provisions are there, the travel element of it is well known and everybody is used to it. So, to move to an FE college or similar provision will invariably involve further distance to travel, a longer distance to travel, and a change in the dynamics of getting to that place, staying in that place and so on and so forth. So, that can be a barrier, and it varies, obviously, across the country, as I've said many times. It can be a barrier to some pupils who are making a decision based on certain factors, if the decision they have is, 'Well, I can stay in my local school 3 miles away, or I can travel every day on the 6 o'clock bus in the morning to the FE college 20 miles away; I know what choice I'm going to make.' But it is a shame, I agree with you, that our schools are unable to offer the courses to be a mechanic or a beautician or whatever. They used to—I remember them—but, of course, it's shrinking budgets. Shrinking budgets mean the very first courses to go are the ones with the least number of pupils attendant, and they invariably are sixth-form courses. So, unfortunately, it is a reflection of the funding in schools these days, unfortunately.

Okay. Thank you for answering the question. So, just for my own knowledge—and I hope you don't mind; I will come back to the questioning area that we want to focus on as well—and I appreciate that, yes, and I can put my hands up and say that I'd probably be one of those lazy students as well at that age, not wanting to travel the extra 6 miles to go to a college when my school is down the road, but we were just talking about education maintenance allowance yesterday, and that's an incentive for young people to get on the bus, to be able to make their way to that college, to be able to do that. Is that still not enough? Is that not deemed to be enough for children, or young people, to want to make their way to college, even by having that financial incentive to get there, even regardless of the transport measures they may need to embark upon to get there to do a course that they may actually really enjoy?

To be fair with you, we haven't got the data to comment either way on that, but, clearly, that is an incentive. What it might be interesting to look at is whether there are any cohorts of pupils who miss out or fall through the gaps. I don't have the answer. But you are right: you would expect that to be the incentive. The cynic might reflect your comment there, that, like I said, given the choice of travelling 3 miles or 20 miles, 'What are you going to do?' But, to be blunt with your question, we haven't got the data to explain that.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. And do you think that having an equivalent to the Baker clause in England here in Wales would help address the issue of access to pupils here in schools?

Good question. I haven't got the information to think of that either, to be honest.

Not a problem. If it's okay with you, if you have a think about it and write to us as a committee, I think that would be really appreciated.

Sure. Yes.

Perfect. So, this question's for everybody—I hope that's all right: Gower College Swansea has told us that senior leaders in schools with small sixth forms feel under particular pressure to secure enrolments. Is this something that you, perhaps, recognise in your particular lines of work, and how do you think that impacts on the senior leaders in schools?

Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n sicr yn adlewyrchiad teg o'r sefyllfa, ond i fynd yn ôl i'r hyn roeddech chi'n ei ofyn gynnau i Siôn, dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n annheg i ddweud nad ydy ysgolion yn awyddus i ddatblygu partneriaethau efo colegau addysg bellach oherwydd maen nhw'n fodlon iawn gwneud hynny ar gyfer cohort arbennig o fyfyrwyr. Hynny ydy, mae gennym ni bobl sydd yn cael mynediad i bethau fel mecaneg, trin gwallt, colur ac ati yng nghyfnod allweddol 3 lle nad oes yna ddarpariaeth yn yr ysgol, ond dwi'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n sôn am gohort arbennig yn fanna, ac mae'r cyswllt wedyn rhwng y cohort yna o ddisgyblion a'r colegau'n glir, a dwi'n meddwl bod yr ysgolion yn cynnig cyswllt pendant yn fanna. Ond i'r rheini fyddai efallai'n elwa o fynd i goleg addysg bellach, neu eu bod nhw'n ffinio rhwng gwneud Safon Uwch a chymwysterau eraill, dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna'n broblem, a dyna'r garfan mae arweinwyr ysgolion llai yn mynd ar eu hôl. Mae'n batrwm i'w weld yn sicr fwyfwy lle mae yna ysgolion llai, ac mae'r holl bwysau ariannol a'r holl gystadleuaeth yma'n golygu nad oes gan arweinwyr ddim dewis arall, neu maen nhw'n wynebu cyfnodau o ddiswyddo mewn ysgolion. Mae'r cyllidebau mor ddifrifol wael rŵan does yna ddim hyblygrwydd o gwbl ac, fel dwi wedi nodi, mae ysgolion yn diswyddo ar sail y ffaith bod niferoedd eu chweched nhw mor fach. Felly, mae o'n sicr yn rhywbeth rydyn ni'n ei glywed gan ein haelodau—bod yna bwysau mawr ar arweinwyr efo chweched dosbarth. Mae'n siŵr y down ni at hyn yn nes ymlaen, ond mae o hyd yn oed yn fwy o broblem, efallai, mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg lle mae yna chweched dosbarth, ac mae yna sawl ffactor yn fan yna sydd angen eu hystyried. Wedyn, yn sicr, fe allwn ni gytuno ar yr hyn sydd wedi cael ei gynnig i chi eisoes.

So, what factors do you think we need to consider?

In what way now?

You just mentioned that, when it comes to Welsh language schools, there are certain factors that need to be considered to look at development. What exactly—?

Oh, all right, as far as—

Ocê, y cyfrwng Cymraeg. Ocê—dwi'n hapus i fynd ymlaen am hynny am oes, dwi'n meddwl. Mae gennyn ni broblem efo’n hysgolion Cymraeg, wrth gwrs, yn enwedig y tu hwnt i'r gogledd-orllewin—ac mi wnaf i nodi’r gogledd-orllewin ychydig yn wahanol—lle does yna ddim darpariaeth ôl-16 addas ar gyfer y rheini sydd eisiau mynd i addysg bellach. Ydy, mae'r sefyllfa wedi gwella yn arw, ond yr unig le, yr unig sefydliadau ar hyn o bryd sydd yn cyfrannu tuag at dargedau’r Llywodraeth erbyn 2050 ydy'r ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae'r dystiolaeth rydych chi wedi'i derbyn, er enghraifft gan swyddfa’r comisiynydd, yn adlewyrchu hynny yn reit glir. Beth sydd gennym ni mewn ysgolion Cymraeg ac ysgolion efo chweched dosbarth llai ydy hyn a hyn o bynciau y gallan nhw eu dewis, hyn a hyn o ddisgyblion sydd wir yn awyddus i wneud y pynciau yna, ac os ydyn nhw eisiau edrych ar ddarpariaeth fwy eang, mae o’n anodd o fewn ysgolion i gynnig hynny. Dydy’r cyllid ddim yna. Mae yna ddiswyddiadau’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Dwi ddim eisiau enwi ysgolion, ond maen nhw'n edrych i gael gwared o bynciau penodol, megis busnes, er enghraifft, oherwydd dydy’r galw ddim yna neu dydy’r cyllid ddim yna i gynnal y ddarpariaeth.

Felly, mae gennyn ni chweched dosbarth llai, ac mae gennyn ni broblem fawr o ran trafnidiaeth yn ogystal. Rydych chi wedi clywed hyn sawl gwaith. Mewn sawl awdurdod, mae yna gwestiwn ynglŷn ag ariannu ôl-16 o ran sefydliadau addysg. Mae yna un awdurdod yn y gogledd lle mae'r colegau, i ddweud y gwir, yn talu am drafnidiaeth, neu mae'r colegau wedi darparu canolfannau eang sy'n apelio i sawl disgybl ifanc yng nghanol tref. Felly, maen nhw'n hygyrch iawn, iawn, lle mae'r rheini sydd yn awyddus i fynd i'r ysgol gyfrwng Cymraeg i barhau gyda'u hastudiaethau yn gorfod dal bws i ganol y dref ac wedyn cael bws arall allan i'r maestrefi, lle bynnag mae'r ysgolion. Felly, mae yna issue o ran trafnidiaeth yn y fan yna. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae hwnna'n issue hefyd sy'n cael ei adlewyrchu yn eang, yn ogystal. Felly, un peth mae galw i Lywodraeth ei wneud i sicrhau ecwiti ydy bod trafnidiaeth i'r ddarpariaeth fwyaf addas, ym mha bynnag iaith, yn cael ei chynnig, a hynny'n rhad ac am ddim. Ar hyn o bryd, mae o'n sefyllfa amwys iawn o awdurdod i awdurdod.

Felly, o ran y Gymraeg, mae gennym ni broblem hefyd yn y colegau addysg bellach, lle mae yna ddarlithwyr dwyieithog o safon uchel iawn, iawn, ac yn gallu darparu gwersi a chyrsiau o safon uchel, ond diwedd y gân ydy'r geiniog. Mae'r colegau addysg bellach yma yn gwmnïau preifat i bob pwrpas, ac er eu bod nhw'n dweud, ‘Mi wnawn ni gynnig rhywbeth yn ddwyieithog’, yn aml iawn, Saesneg ydy'r cyfrwng efo ambell derm yn y Gymraeg yn cael ei daflu i'r pair, felly. Dwi ddim yn gwybod os ydy model rhannau o’r gogledd-orllewin, lle maen nhw wedi cau'r ysgolion â chweched a dod â phawb i mewn i ganolfannau, yn fodd o weithredu. Yn sicr, mae yna fwy o Gymraeg yn y colegau hynny, a dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n beth da iawn. Ond, o ran y sefyllfa sydd gennym ni, dydy’r chweched dosbarth ddim am fod yn enfawr, ac mae angen i ni sicrhau bod yna gyfleoedd, ar sawl lefel, ym mha bynnag iaith.

Thank you very much for that.

I'm really sorry, as I'm so conscious of time, could I bring Cefin in with his questions now while we're on this subject, because it's so interesting? I know you have the questions around Welsh-medium education.

Ie, iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae fy nghwestiynau i ar addysg gyfrwng Cymraeg, a diolch i Natasha am arwain y drafodaeth i’r cyfeiriad yna. Rŷn ni wedi cael nifer o gyflwyniadau sy’n cyfeirio at ddewisiadau cyfyngedig—rŷch chi wedi sôn am hyn, ac mae Siôn wedi sôn am hyn yn barod—mewn addysg a hyfforddiant ôl-16 trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Pa effaith ydych chi’n meddwl mae hyn yn ei chael ar y dewisiadau mae dysgwyr yn eu gwneud wrth benderfynu beth i’w wneud ar ôl blwyddyn 11? Mae’n gwbl amlwg, os yw’r ddarpariaeth yn llai, fod hynny’n cyfyngu ar y dewis. Ond rŷch chi wedi dweud eisoes bod hynny’n anorfod oherwydd nifer y disgyblion sydd yn mynd i’r chweched dosbarth. Ond tybed a allwch chi ymhelaethu ychydig bach ar y pwynt penodol yna.

Ie. O ran beth dŷch chi newydd ei ddweud, beth sydd gyda ni'n aml iawn ydy bod yna rai disgyblion yn awyddus i aros mewn addysg Gymraeg ac efallai yn dewis mynd ymlaen i wneud Safon Uwch mewn pynciau nad ydyn nhw wir yn addas iddyn nhw, ond er mwyn cael aros yn yr ysgolion Cymraeg. Ond, yn fwy difrifol na hynny, rydyn ni’n colli siaradwyr Cymraeg wrth iddyn nhw bontio o’r ysgol i fyd gwaith. Maen nhw’n colli hyder wrth, efallai, fynd i’r colegau addysg bellach, ac mae hwnna’n bryder mawr i ni, gan ein bod ni’n awyddus iawn i weld mwy a mwy o bobl yn gweithio yn y Gymraeg, a’n bod ni’n cael mwy o athrawon yn dysgu yn y Gymraeg. Ond mae’r colli hyder yna—.

Dwi'n ymwybodol bod yna ganolfannau addysg bellach sydd yn ceisio cynnal darpariaeth yn y Gymraeg—er enghraifft, bagloriaeth Cymru neu’r tystysgrif sgiliau hanfodol—ac yn eu cefnogi nhw i wneud hynny yn y Gymraeg. Ond mae’r prinder yna o ran cymwysterau addas yn bryder o ran trosglwyddo o iaith ysgol i iaith bob dydd. Dŷn ni hefyd yn gweld—oherwydd y lleia ydy'r chweched dosbarth, y lleia ydy'r ddarpariaeth—mai lleihau wnaiff ddigwydd o dan y gyfundrefn bresennol. Wedyn, dydyn ni ddim hyd yn oed yn gweld yr amrediad o Safon Uwch fel y buasem ni eisiau'i weld mewn ysgolion Cymraeg. Felly, rydyn ni’n awyddus iawn i sicrhau’r ecwiti yna, ac mae’n bosib bod angen modelu'n ariannol yn wahanol i sicrhau hynny.

Dwi ddim yn siŵr os oes rhywun arall eisiau dod mewn ar y pwynt yna. Ie, Siôn.

Yes, I’ll come in on this point, without repeating what Ioan has said, but just to echo it. When you have Welsh-medium secondary schools, or bilingual schools, where you can receive your education up to the age of 16, through either the medium of English or Welsh, according to your wishes, when you then transfer to sixth form, because of the budgetary deficiencies that we’ve already heard about, you are in a situation where schools can only offer one class for a particular subject, and that class would either be taught through the medium of English or bilingually. So, from stepping from year 11 into sixth form, the provision or the medium has changed from being Welsh only to being bilingual. So, there is a dilution there already.

Also, there is a possibility that the medium of those lessons will be English, with provision for some Welsh-medium resources, perhaps because the expertise of the teacher is stronger in English because of the education they’ve received. And that takes me to my second point: if you have Welsh-medium schools, rather than bilingual schools, where the education is only through the medium of Welsh, when they transfer to FE provision, or tertiary settings, there is a tendency for the medium to change as well, because, perhaps, the staff in those FE settings teach through the medium of English. So, very quickly, from going from year 11 to sixth form, you lose that medium at that point—the medium has changed to being English medium.

So, this lifelong pathway of using the Welsh language not just in schools, but as part of the warp and weft of the community, and as the language of the workplace, can disappear because of that switch that can take place in moving from year 11 to further education settings. The language is impacted in that transfer. On that basis, it isn't an equal situation in terms of the Welsh and English languages, unfortunately.

From our perspective, we agree that there is an issue. I think it's really important that we have a workforce plan that addresses this. When we had an earlier draft of the Welsh language and education Bill, we surveyed our members, and even those members who were really confident fluent Welsh speakers wanted more support to be able to teach through the medium of Welsh. It's really important that that's available. And then I think what we're talking about fundamentally today is that there's a market and that market isn't working. I think it's really important that we don't create more of a market but that we look at every individual child and how they can fulfil their potential. That's what our members are there for. That's why they're teaching and lecturing and supporting young people, because they want them to be able to fulfil their potential. So, we've got to make sure that the range of pathways is there and that everybody is enabled to be able to do them.

Thank you for raising the matter of a workforce plan. That'll be my final question, Mary, but I'll come back to that.

Os caf i, yn y cwestiwn nesaf, barhau gyda'r thema o'r dilyniant yna o ran cyfrwng Cymraeg i mewn i'r chweched dosbarth neu yn arbennig i mewn i golegau addysg bellach. Gwnaf i fod yn gwbl onest, dwi'n gwybod am golegau addysg bellach sydd yn dweud eu bod nhw'n darparu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ond maen nhw, yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion—nid ym mhob achos ond yn y rhan fwyaf o achosion dwi'n ymwybodol ohonyn nhw—yn darparu yn ddwyieithog. A beth mae dwyieithog yn ei olygu yw mai'r lingua franca mewn sefyllfa fel yna, bob tro, yw'r iaith Saesneg. Ac wedyn rydyn ni hefyd yn gwybod ar sail ymchwil bod hyder person ifanc i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg, os ydyn nhw'n dod o gartref di-Gymraeg, yn cael ei golli po leied mae'r person yn defnyddio'r iaith ar ôl 16 ac yna ymlaen i fyd gwaith. Felly, beth yw eich barn chi am beth y gellid ei wneud? Achos rydyn ni'n gwybod bod y ddarpariaeth mewn colegau addysg bellach yn fach o ran cyfrwng Cymraeg. Beth y dylen ni fod yn ei wneud er mwyn sicrhau'r cydraddoldeb yna i ddysgwyr sydd wedi dilyn llwybr gyrfa cyfrwng Cymraeg hyd at 16 oed?

I know you've got a workforce plan question, but I think it's another instance where we can talk about the workforce plan, to be honest, because we've got to really know what we've got and be able to support the workforce to deliver as much Welsh language provision as possible to enable those choices for those learners. But what we must do as well is recognise that there will be teachers and lecturers who have got really deep subject knowledge that we don't want to lose in enabling people to be able to learn through the medium of Welsh, so that we're equipping the workforce as much as possible to ensure that they've got the available training and support—and we didn't mention training and support and careers. I think that professional learning pathways are really important for the workforce. And, again, some of those things come back to funding, don't they? So, funding for the sector—we don't know what Medr will exactly do yet, but there are opportunities and there are risks.

Anybody else very quickly?

Very quickly. It's noteworthy to say that the Welsh language Bill makes no mention of the workforce. And finally, imagine the old days, local education in your school up to form six level, a wide range of subjects.

A'r gofal ieithyddol yna'n bodoli, fel nad ydych chi'n colli allan. Mae'r sefyllfa yn fwy bregus yn y de-ddwyrain a'r de-orllewin, wrth gwrs, oherwydd brwydr yr iaith yn erbyn y Saesneg sydd mor gryf yn yr ardaloedd hyn. Ac rydych chi'n iawn, Syr, yn y cam yma o'r pumed i'r chweched, fel gwnaethoch chi ei ddisgrifio, mae yna risg o golli'r iaith yn y trosglwyddiad yna. Ond mae meddwl nad yw'r gair 'gweithlu' yn y Bil Cymraeg o gwbl yn arwyddocaol, dwi'n meddwl.

Un frawddeg: mae angen inni sicrhau bod y colegau yn darparu yr hyn maen nhw'n addo maen nhw'n ei wneud. Mae yna—. Wel, dwy frawddeg: yn y gogledd-orllewin, mae gennym ni ddarlithwyr o safon uchel iawn sydd yn gallu darparu yn y Gymraeg ond ddim wastad yn cael y cyfle i'w wneud, felly mae'n rhaid inni sicrhau bod y ddarpariaeth yna a bod yr addewidion yn cael eu cadw, ac mae hynny'n fater i'r Llywodraeth ac efallai i Estyn yn ogystal.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae'r cwestiwn olaf yn ein harwain ni'n dwt iawn i'r angen am gynllun i ddatblygu gweithlu sydd yn gallu darparu cyrsiau ôl-16 naill ai mewn chweched dosbarth neu goleg addysg bellach, neu brentisiaethau hefyd, drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Dwi'n digwydd cyd-fynd bod angen inni gael y cynllun gweithlu yna yn y Bil, ond mae'r trafodaethau yna'n digwydd ar hyn o bryd. Felly, gaf i ofyn i'r tri ohonoch chi beth rydych chi eisiau gweld yn digwydd o ran datblygu sgiliau'r gweithlu i fedru ateb y gofyn yma?

Very quickly. We're so short on time.

It's about a range of opportunities for the workforce, isn't it, to enable the aspirations in the Welsh language and education Bill; it's about ensuring that the workforce have those opportunities and are enabled to make sure that they are able to upskill themselves in terms of being able to provide Welsh-medium provision. And like I said, I think that over half of our members who said that they were fluent Welsh speakers wanted more support. So, it's really important that it's there at every level.

Mae angen ehangu'r rhwyd a sicrhau bod swyddi mewn addysg bellach yn apelio at bobl o fyd diwydiant, i fynd at ran olaf eich cwestiwn chi. Mae yna ddigon o Gymry Cymraeg ym myd diwydiant, boed hynny yn y gogledd-ddwyrain, y de-ddwyrain, neu hyd yn oed yn y gogledd-orllewin, ond mae angen inni ehangu'r rhwyd a sicrhau bod yr hyn sydd yn cael ei gynnig yn gynnig sydd yn werth ei ystyried.

Thank you. We're going to have to move on because we're so short on time. I have a question. If you could be as concise as possible with your answers, because I know that Carolyn's got questions that she's desperate to ask as well. How well do you think that the specific needs of young people with ALN are taken into account when considering what their options are after year 11, both in terms of what they would like to do as well as extra support to be put in place to keep their options open? As concise as possible, please.

Well, it's obviously not sufficient, and I think it's part of the lack of finance in the system, isn't it? I wouldn't want to differentiate, and perhaps Mary will have more to say, because I know she's been discussing that in far greater detail than myself. But it isn't sufficient, obviously.

It's definitely not sufficient. I'm trying to work out how to answer it really briefly. The statistics are really stark, aren't they, for young people with additional learning needs, and they coincide particularly with the introduction of the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Act 2018. Pushing down the responsibilities to schools and colleges to support young people without the funding and the training and the support to do that seems to definitely be correlating with those young people not being in education, employment or training. That appears to be the correlation. The statistics are horrible. I think it's 40 per cent of young people in your 19 to 24 bracket, and I think there's something there for the Welsh Government. They're obviously looking at the ALN code, but as a disabled person, I find it chilling.

Thank you for your answer, we appreciate it. Carolyn, please.

Thank you. An Estyn report found that where schools with sixth forms do allow representatives into schools to meet with learners, this is sometimes restricted to specific groups of learners within the school who are unlikely to progress into the sixth form. How do you respond to Estyn’s findings? Does this create a two-tier system based on perceived academic ability? And do you believe this creates the wrong message for learners as well, who then might think, if they go down the college route, it's not so academic, so they really must go through the sixth form? So, just your thoughts on that, please.

It's going to vary, isn't it, across Wales. Because as we've already discussed, some local authorities don't have that school sixth-form provision, so there is going to be variation across Wales. Sorry, Ioan—you were about to speak.

It's quite okay. The point I was going to make—. 'Yes' and 'yes'. And with reference to my previous answer, there is a specific cohort that they've developed links with from year 10 onwards, and it's going to be very difficult to change that mindset. There are some authorities with a further ed college but there are still one or two sixth-form provisions there, and they are supposed to work in collaboration. I can think of an authority not far from where I live. But what we've got is a two-tier system. We need to find a way of getting rid of that two-tier system, but making sure that the finance is in place and that all aspects are considered, including the linguistic aspect.

Schools, and there are many of them, that are 11 to 16 obviously aren't precious about that because they don't have a sixth form to populate. The scenario described here does exist, but it's a natural consequence of the fact that schools tend to only be able to provide academic courses in A-level because for the practical courses—the engineering, the beautician courses—they're unable to afford the equipment to run the course. So, there is a natural tendency that has evolved over time that the practical hands-on courses are taken up by the FE institutions, whereas the academic stuff is held on to by the schools. I think it's more of a natural progression to this kind of scenario, rather than any deliberate intent on behalf of the school. However, of course, retaining your sixth-form pupils does have a positive effect in terms of the school's budget.

Thank you. Siôn, your paper says that there is stronger engagement between FE colleges and employers than between schools and employers. Why do think this is, and how can better working between schools and colleges and employers be encouraged?

It's normally the case that the careers aspects within schools are undertaken by teachers who have a full teaching load, who will be teaching all day and so on and so forth, and that any career responsibilities they may have are an added, supplemental part of their post. So, because of that, there's a natural restriction on the amount of work and engagement that these individuals can do, because they have a full-time teaching job, so to speak. So, unless you have—and I know FE colleges have it—a dedicated full-time career officer or similar, who can proactively go out and engage proactively with employers to bring them in, schools are very reliant on the inputs of third parties—Careers Wales or whoever—in terms of bringing stuff in and arranging these engagement sessions. And schools are really reliant on what the individuals or the employees are able to do on top of their teaching engagement. So, they're doing the best they can with what they have, in one sense, I guess.

Do schools not still organise, for the Welsh baccalaureate, work experience placements? Because I remember they used to employ somebody to help with that. So, has that diminished?

It has diminished. And I think one of the biggest issues was with insurance as well, for students being able to go on placements. So, it's a struggle to get students on placements and work experience, to be honest. And I know it's usually on a voluntary basis by now.

Can I—? Sorry, Mary.

I was just going to say—I think Siôn's already highlighted it—that it's an add-on to somebody's job, from speaking to members, so I think it's an extra thing that people are arranging, by this point.

Can I just ask one more, a quick one?

Yes.

I don't know if you'll have the answer to this, but I was talking somebody who wanted to go down an apprentice route, but also wanted to continue with A-levels, but wasn't able to do both. I suppose that's a funding issue, isn't it?

It is, yes.

Yes, and Siôn's nodding. So, is that something that needs looking at, do you think, so that they can do both?

Well, you know, it'd be interesting to see where these FE centres or schools are in Wales where not only do they have a wide suite of A-level options, but they also have a wide suite of practical, work-based options as well. Unfortunately, I would bet that they don't exist any more and that there's delineation between A-level schools doing the academic stuff and the FE colleges tending to do the hands-on stuff. But, again, it's just a natural evolution of things because of funding, as you said.

Mary, please.

It's my understanding, Carolyn, that work-based learning and therefore apprenticeship funding has been cut, so that will create extra barriers to offering that range of academic and vocational courses. I think it's really important. I don’t think we're in a place where they've got parity of esteem and I think that is really important.

Yes.

Thank you. Does any other Member have a question they'd like to ask, because I think we have literally one minute?

There's just one final question and it's on an area and subject that everyone's touched upon, in the phrase, but I think we should ask a question on it. It's: to what extent does the poor quality of information and support provided to learners at school result in the likelihood of young people getting a NEET status, and being not in employment, education or training? And do you find, in your own personal experiences, that it's harder for these young people to then re-engage with education once they've left school at 16?

Absolutely.

Yes.

It's the old adage that you leave university, or you leave sixth form, and you take a year to go around the world and, 'I'll re-engage with my education once I come back'—you know, you never do. Once you're out, as you said, it's very hard to re-engage; it's much easier to stay within your educational path without any breaks, because, once you have a break, then other things and interests will take your attention. And in many cases, of course, they find employment, possibly, or some kind of employment, and they say, 'Well, I've got a steady—. I've got an income and I prefer this to doing any education.'

So, to make it simpler, then, in a one-word answer, who do you think should be responsible for supplying the information to make sure that they’re aware of just the options that are available to them?

Sorry, can I just answer your previous question?

Of course you can, yes.

I was just going to say that I don’t think, today, we’ve really touched on youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds, whose parents don’t have as much income. I think we’re in a situation where potentially young people are spending their EMA on the bus to get to college, and I thought it was college by college, but it’s local authority by local authority; it’s depending on the funding arrangements. So, some colleges over different local authorities will have different offers for whichever site of that college—so, it’s the same college but a different site—that you’re able to access that transport. So, for young people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds there are going to be multiple barriers. And I think it’s really important and I hope in your future evidence sessions you’re able to explore that some more, because there will be multiple barriers. Some of those are things we can do things about as a Government—you know, that the Welsh Government can do things about.

Okay. I’m sure we will in future, rest assured. Thank you so much for that. So, who’s responsible for the poor quality of the information going out to young people then? And who can improve it?

Well, I think there’s an opportunity for Medr, isn’t there?

Medr.

It could. The problem is that it's so high stakes with curriculum pressures in schools it’s going to be very, very difficult to provide that space.

Okay.

I think it should be part of the weave of the curriculum, rather than a bolt-on thing you give them in year 9, something extra. Careers and career choices, career pathways, should be intrinsic in the curriculum.

Okay. Thank you so much. Thanks, Chair.

Thank you. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We could keep you here the whole day, unfortunately for you. We do still have a number of questions to ask. Is it okay if we write to you with those questions? We really do appreciate it when you do take the time to reply to us. So, again, thank you so much for this morning. You’ll be sent a transcript of this morning’s proceedings for checking in due course. Thank you again.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch.

Thank you. So, we’ll now take a short break for five minutes. Thank you.