Equality and Social Justice Committee

My current role is I'm a member of the human rights advisory group, which the Welsh Government established to progress the recommendations. I'm also a member of the legislative options working group, which Charles is chair of. I'm also involved with the Senedd cross-party group on human rights, which has an obvious interest in how these recommendations are progressed.

Very good. Charles.

Thanks. My name's Charles Whitmore. I'm a research associate with the Wales Governance Centre, but also with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. I was asked by the Welsh Government to chair the legislative options working group. As with Simon, I'm also a member of the human rights advisory group, and I also sit on a number of different equality and human rights civic society organisations in connection with my capacity in the Wales Council for Voluntary Action as well.

Very good. And Sarah.

Dwi'n aelod o'r LOWG, y legislative options working group, ond dwi ddim yn aelod o'r HRAG. Mae gen i ddiddordeb mawr mewn edrych ar wahanol ddulliau o atebolrwydd a gorfodi drwy'r llysoedd a'r tribiwnlysoedd, yn enwedig y Llys Gweinyddol yng Nghymru, a hefyd sefydliadau eraill yn y system gyfiawnder gweinyddol, gan gynnwys y comisiynydd a'r ombwdsmon ac ati. Mae gen i ddiddordeb yn y gwaith hefyd mewn mynediad at wasanaeth cynghori ac eiriolaeth, a hefyd mae gen i ddiddordeb mewn ymwybyddiaeth o gydraddoldeb a hawliau dynol ymhlith y cyhoedd yn gyffredinol yng Nghymru.

Since this report was published back in August 2021, over three years ago, what key developments have been taken forward by the Welsh Government, and how is it being monitored?

I think the most important development was, first of all, the Welsh Government's acceptance, or acceptance in part, of the recommendations. I think that was absolutely crucial. And then, following that, there was the setting up of the human rights advisory group and making sure its membership was representational in particular of civil society groups with an interest in equality and human rights. Recommendations 1 and 25, which relate to the setting up of the legislative options working group, were highly significant. It was actually part of recommendation 1. I think Charles may say something about that.

I think there's been progress in other areas. I'm aware of progress, for example, in relation to a statement of support for human rights to be used by public bodies across Wales. I know there's some good work ongoing by officials in relation to a human rights approach, which, again, was amongst the recommendations in the report, and on how to integrate human rights into the integrated impact assessments. So I think there's a lot of good work in the areas that I'm most familiar with in my current role.

In terms of other progress and how it's monitored, I think that it could be the case that the reports that are given to HRAG, the human rights advisory group, by officials on the progress that's being made could be put into the public domain more expeditiously. Because I am aware that there is good work ongoing, but I think in terms of transparency, accountability and monitoring progress, it would be very helpful if more of that was visible outside of the membership of HRAG itself, so that there could be monitoring. It could be, in fact, an acknowledgement of a lot of the good work that's going on, which at the moment takes a little bit of investigation to ensure that the work is being properly monitored.

Because the key thing is how this is impacting on citizens, particularly those with protected characteristics. That seems to me key, and these are the things that we endeavour to probe with the Welsh Government, particularly over budgets, but also in policy. So, how close are we to having a robust action plan that's going to really make a difference for citizens?

I can speak to the actions and work of the legislative options working group only, which pertain to recommendations 1 and 25. The terms of reference were agreed back at the end of 2022. Since then, we've held a number of evidence sessions with a variety of different stakeholders from Scotland who are working on similar ambitions. We've spoken to Government officials in Scotland, to civil society organisations, to civil society stakeholders. We took evidence from them and we've since drafted an interim report, which was submitted to the human rights advisory group and to the Welsh Government.

Since then, we've been working on a methodology, a framework, with which to analyse the various different UN treaties and rights, and in particular, those that are in the programme for government—so, the convention on the rights of disabled people and on the elimination of discrimination against women. We've developed that framework, and since then we've spent a significant part of our capacity applying that, piloting it, refining it and getting it to a place where we're confident in being able to deploy it to arrive at proposals for the Welsh Government in this space.

In terms of where we are at the moment, I'd say we're still quite a way away from an action plan in that space. The landscape is quite complex, it's very uncharted territory. We're not really aware of any work that has previously looked at the intersection between incorporating these human rights in the ways that we're looking at in the context of the constitutional settlement that we have and the limitations around our devolved competencies, so it has taken a while to develop that. I don't know if we're at the stage of being able to put a time frame against this yet.

Obviously, time marches on and we're only 18 months away from wrapping up this term of the Welsh Parliament, so that is some concern. Is there anything you wanted to add before I bring in other Members?

Jest i ddweud bod yna lawer o waith yn y maes cyfiawnder. Mae yna bethau fel cynghori, mynediad at gyfiawnder, ac ati. Mae'n gysylltiedig efo ein gwaith ni.

So, there is a lot of work, I think, ongoing from the Welsh Government and from other bodies such as the Law Council of Wales and the Pro Bono Committee for Wales and others. I think a lot of that relates to our research and response to a number of the recommendations that we made in the field of access to justice, understanding of Welsh law, access to advice and different aspects of the research. So, it's not just the elements around incorporation, but also the other recommendations that we made in the research.

Thank you. Can I bring in Joel James now?

Thank you, Chair. I suppose my next questions I'd like to ask are primarily to Charles in his role as chair of the legislative options working group. I'm conscious you touched upon them a bit there then when you were talking about it, but I was just wondering if you would give an outline of the main objectives and the scope of the working group first, for the committee. Thank you.

Our understanding in terms of what we are to deliver to the human rights advisory group is, essentially, an outline of various different options and models that we could use in Wales to incorporate a variety of different international sources of human rights. We're looking at the moment specifically at the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women and the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The initial request from the Welsh Government was to focus on that, but there was also a willingness to go a little bit broader as well. We hope to look at things like ICESCR—the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights—as well, which we feel is particularly important.

The first stages of our work have focused initially on outlining the main features of what a proposed legislative framework would look like, and that's detailed in our interim report—some very early thinking on that. And then that report went to look in a bit more detail at which treaties and which rights, and those are listed in that document. Since then, working with officials in the Welsh Government, we've decided to narrow our focus a little bit and do a deep-dive into a couple of different specific treaties. We're going article by article and right by right, trying to distil the essence of those rights and look at what sort of duties we might be able to produce from those in the Welsh context. Our understanding at the moment is that we'd like to deliver that report on that work initially to the Welsh Government, and then set out an action plan beyond that, and some further milestones to arrive at a point that's closer to legislation.

You mentioned earlier—. I get feedback, so I listen to myself talking; I don't really like the sound of my own voice. You mentioned there in your opening about the difficulties in terms of producing a timeline of the work that you do. Why is that? Why is there difficulty there? Because one of the concerns that has also been expressed—and I think it was touched upon by Simon there as well—is about the lack of information that's available about you that's been published. I think it was about five days ago that you published the minutes from your meeting in 2022. You've said yourself you meet quite regularly, you've had that interim report. That's not necessarily been made widely available at the moment. I was just wondering why that's the case.

I would say initially that, obviously, I'm very grateful for all of the time that the LOWG members have put into the work. It has always been the position of LOWG members that our meetings are minuted and recorded, and it has always been the position that we wanted those published in the public domain. As I understand it, from what is communicated to me, the delay in publishing the minutes of LOWG and HRAG is purely a matter of technical difficulty on the Welsh Government side. So, I'd say that the committee would probably have to write to the Welsh Government to enquire about that.

It was also the position of LOWG that we wanted to work with the Welsh Government towards publication of our interim report. Certainly, it was written with the intention that it would be published, and, indeed, that we would use it as a document for further work with the sector to trial the ideas, to test them, to refine them, and to refine them further. It was provided to the human rights advisory group and the Welsh Government. So, again, you'd have to write to the Welsh Government, I think, to ask them for it.

You mentioned the Welsh Government there. I was keen to get an idea of how involved they are with the group. Do they provide staff, do they provide funding? How are you resourced?

There is a group of officials in the human rights division in the Welsh Government. They help us with the secretariat of the group—very well, in fact. They help organise meetings, find dates in diaries, and they provide that logistical support. They minute the meetings, they work with Ministers to sign those meetings off, and with me to agree the text. So, there's that level of secretariat support that's there.

I suppose this does link to your question around why the work is taking a certain amount of time, and I think it has been the position of LOWG members—and this will be, I think, expressed in a lot of our minutes—that there has been a concern around the capacity of the group to undertake the work. As I said earlier, this is quite a novel landscape to be exploring. There isn't really much evidence and research to draw on that can provide us a steer and a template, as it were, to design legislation or a legislative framework that is tailored to human rights and the devolved competencies that we have in Wales. So, we very much had to start from the ground up in the group in terms of developing that, because it was, quite simply, new. We didn't know how long that was going to take until we actually started trialling it and applying it. And then, in practical terms, I suppose, we—and maybe Simon can speak a bit about this as well—had to, essentially, cut down the framework to match the capacity that we had within the legislative options working group. The members are a mixture of academics and civil society organisations. We do not have any financial resource, so far, made available to us to pay for time to do the work, so, invariably, it proceeds at a pace that matches the voluntary capacity that the organisations can give and, coupled with the complexity of the question, it doesn't lend itself to rapid progress, I would say.

But I should also say that I am in conversation with officials. Quite recently, where we are going to have conversations, now that we have our template, they've invited conversation with me about what resource could be put in place to explore the next stages of the work. And, indeed, I have found some third sector funding, potentially, as well, that might bolster our capacity as well.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Okay. Excellent. Thank you. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much, and good afternoon. I was going to ask about the incorporation of UN conventions and, looking at the current political and social climate in Wales, do you believe that incorporating UN conventions still holds value?

Yes, and I think the findings from the research still retain their salience. I think they are still findings that are significant, not least because they reflect historical position in Wales of the stakeholders who took part in the research. So, it wasn't a case of, 'We raised the issue of incorporation, everyone thought it was a good idea at the time, let's move on.' It's something that's been under consideration, under discussion in Wales, for a long time.

And then we found, during the research, that there were a number of studies that highlighted the value of incorporation, including things like raising awareness in the public space of human rights; signalling the importance of human rights within a democracy and a jurisdiction; providing remedies for violations of human rights, when they occur, even in jurisdictions that might otherwise appear to be rights respecting; influencing processes that contribute to policy development; and providing for enforcement and accountability. So, there were some general reasons why incorporation was important. And, of course, that chimes with the view of the UN treaty bodies, which is unchanged, that legal incorporation or legal recognition of rights is a significant step towards implementation and rights.

And, of course, it chimes with our experience on children's rights in Wales. We know, from research that I conducted along with Children in Wales in 2018 for the Equality and Human Rights Commission, that there's a value to incorporation—the due regard model and the children's rights Measure. Our research showed at the time that incorporation provides stronger recognition of children's rights in policy development, stronger visibility and attention to children's rights in policy. It provides an opportunity for policy advocacy, particularly by commissioners. And it provides—even the due regard model, which is considered, probably, at the weaker end of the scale of enforcement—for stronger accountability, particularly the due regard model in the political and public space. So, I think those reasons for incorporation still hold good.

I think there's another reason for incorporation. We've recently experienced a good deal of turbulence on human rights at the UK level. Things may be changing now, but it's still within memory, and it's quite a bitter memory, actually. One of the reasons for the research in the first place was how to protect human rights in Wales in the future. So, we may have a climate of human rights recognition in Wales at the moment, but who can say what the future holds? One of the things that incorporation does is it makes human rights protection enduring. I like Charles's phrase; I'm going to borrow his word: it makes human rights 'sticky', so they stick around for the future. I think that is particularly important.

And then finally, something that I don't think I covered in my submission in advance for the committee, which is that one of the things that we were asked about in the research was how we could better align some of the legislation in Wales. One of the things that came out of our research was that there was some cause for concern amonst civil society and, indeed, amongst public sector contributors that it was unclear what equality objectives there were in Wales and what were the objectives of the well-being of future generations legislation, that these objectives were stated in rather vague terms, whereas human rights provide more concrete objectives, so they could be used in order to give concrete form, if you like, to other legislation in Wales: Wales-specific equality duties, and the well-being goals under the well-being legislation. That was something that we recognised in our report. So, lots of reasons, I think, that incorporation should remain very firmly on the agenda in Wales.

And do you think that is the view, generally, of the stakeholders who were involved?

That was certainly the view of—. I'll be corrected if I'm wrong—there's a fellow researcher here—but I did not get the impression that stakeholders were talking necessarily about the here and now. They were talking about the here and now, but they were also talking about the future and where Wales can go in the future on human rights, and the need for protection, moving forward.

Yes, thank you. Did you have anything to add?

I suppose primarily from the perspective of working in administrative law, we're aware that there are so many duties on public bodies in Wales already. I think one of the big challenges is to make sure that whatever framework is enacted is clear and is consistent. We talk about process alignment in a number of ways in our research, but really what we're looking at is a set of duties that are really clear for public bodies, given their capacity and given the challenges that they face, and I think also given the challenges that people face in accessing justice as well. So, certainly my perspective, from the public bodies participating in the research, was the importance of all of the different duties that they're under aligning and making sense and being consistent with each other, and that incorporation can be part of that, as long as everything is a consistent and coherent framework. I'd be interested in to what extent future working, codification and consolidation can bring these things together as well. So, it's a question of the duties being clear and consistent, and that framework making sense is really important.

Yes. Thank you.

Thank you. I'd just like to echo the point that Simon made, because this did form part of the early discussions we had in the legislative options working group. It formed part of the context for our work, but then also added to the complexity as to why work was challenging to progress, and that was purely that sense amongst the stakeholders of really needing to protect, as much as we could within the limits of devolved comptence, against regression, or legislation at the UK level that was certainly perceived as regressive on a human rights front. We had the Bill of Rights Bill. We had the Illegal Migration Act 2023. We had notwithstanding clauses used at the UK level that were trying to essentially remove the legislation from the remit of international human rights. And all of this was happening that was absolutely salient for our work, so we had to explore all of that. I suppose the added challenge there is that Wales is quite small, obviously, and we have a limited civic society sector, and the same people working in the LOWG were the same people that had to respond at the UK level to all this legislation that was coming at us at quite an alarming pace at times, as well, which was inevitably a massive drain on capacity, including mine and Simon's.

Chair, could I just add something very briefly? I naturally went to the research to confirm the view of stakeholders, but, of course, we have the cross-party group on human rights, which, as recently as July 2024, I think, asked via the chair for Ministers to confirm their commitment to incorporation, and there was no objection from anybody on the cross-party group—civil society members of the cross-party group—to that, and the impression I gained was that there was a good deal of support, ongoing support, for incorporation. And that's also the experience of the Wales civil society stakeholder group.

Right. So, going on, then, to the Welsh Government, have you observed any changes or any shift in view on incorporation from the Welsh Government?

The response to the letter was quite positive—the letter I just mentioned, from the chair of the cross-party group. I haven't seen, myself, any suggestion that there has been any backing away from the commitment to incorporation. I think, quite naturally, there is a desire to make progress in other areas—on policy, on policy frameworks, on action plans—and there is a concern that resources might be spread a little thinly when it comes to, 'Shall we progress legislation or shall we progress other mechanisms of implementation?' And my concern is that that kind of approach forces a binary choice, almost, between incorporation and implementation. It sets the two things up as oppositional. I'm very understanding of the resource demands on officials and officials' time and working time, but I think it's crucially important that we continue on the route towards incorporation, whilst also looking at other ways of, if you like, doing human rights in practice as we're going along.

So, the short answer is that I've seen no stepping away from the commitment, but I can understand that there's a need to think about priorities, and I would like to see the Welsh Government, given the recent changes in the Welsh Government, reiterate its commitment to the recommendations and to incorporation.

Right. Sioned, did you—?

Sioned, did you want to come in?

No.

Charles, you wanted to come in.

I was going to say that, certainly, at the official level, in the conversations I've had with officials, they've been resolute in constantly reaffirming the Welsh Government's commitment to incorporation. As Simon alluded to a little bit, there are probably some challenges around the limitations of capacity that we have in terms of wanting to look at incorporation, but then also consider implementation and what that looks like, and there are probably differing views, I would imagine, in the Welsh Government around the balance between those two. But, certainly, LOWG members have been quite clear that we feel from the Welsh Government that that commitment to incorporation is there; we'd probably just like to see a bit more financial resource made available to us so that we can progress those recommendations faster.

Right. And so the work that you do on the working group, it's balanced between legislative and non-legislative proposals. How do you balance that?

So, again, the committee might want to write to the Welsh Government to request a copy of the legislative option group's work terms of reference, where that is addressed in there. It's certainly the case that LOWG members have wanted to focus on the legislative options for incorporation. But, indeed, when we spoke to colleagues in Scotland, they told us that, from their experience with this work, which is a few more years ahead of ours, it would be prudent to consider implementation and non-legislative measures on some level but to not get too lost in the detail at this stage. Certainly, we've focused on the legislative options so far, but there is a request for us to also consider non-legislative options that has come from the Welsh Government.

And the Welsh Government has asked you to do that. Have you considered any yet, or—?

I don't think the work is at a sufficiently advanced stage for us to be looking at that level of detail, to be honest.

Right.

The template that we have produced to, as Charles said, go through a right-by-right analysis of international treaty rights for incorporation does include some reflection on whether or not progress may also be made through other measures, non-legislative measures. So, the template that's going to be applied, which we would like to see applied in the future to this analysis, does account for that particular issue.

Yes. You mentioned the analysis of treaties on a right-by-right basis. Do you work at all with the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office?

We haven't had any contact with the UK Government around this work so far. I'd say that the previous UK Government was not necessarily very open to progressing human rights, so that space wasn't really very open to us, not least because we were constantly looking at legislation that we felt was regressive. I'd like to think that that might be a space to open up with the work moving forward, potentially further down the line, but, as of yet, no. It might be the case that the Welsh Government might want to speak to the new UK Government in this space as well.

Right. So, what progress can you realistically expect now in the next 18 months, and what's holding you back? You've mentioned money as one thing, yes?

Money, but also time, essentially. It's a piece of work where we have to go through the analysis. It's desk-based work. We need someone to have the capacity and time to go through the treaties, to apply our template, to dig into the detail of how each right might be applied in Wales, and, indeed, how each right might deliver substantial change and an improved lived experience for people in Wales. That's the level of detail that we really need to go through. I think we just need the capacity to do that.

Once we have that in place, I think it would be good to have a conversation with colleagues in the Welsh Government about putting in place a timeline for the delivery of LOWG's recommendations and, indeed, what the next milestone for the Welsh Government might look like in the delivery of recommendations 1 and 25. I think that there's a number of different options that would be open to them in that space, but it would be good to have that conversation.

And are you in that conversation with the Welsh Government?

We are in regular conversation with them. We're not at the position where I think we can necessarily say for sure what the next milestone would be. Certainly, LOWG has discussed some options, so, for example—and I'm conscious this has come up at the cross-party group on human rights as well—where the talk of potentially reaching a Green Paper before the end of this Senedd term might be a desirable milestone, for example.

Right.

Sioned Williams, you wanted to come in.

Yes, and, Chair, I should just say for the record that I am the chair of the cross-party group on human rights. I know that's noted in the submission.

I think that you've made a really compelling case—well, you've all made a very compelling case—for the enduring need and usefulness of incorporation. We understand its importance in principle, which you've very eloquently spelt out, but it's the usefulness for other ways of legislating, isn't it, of making sure that other legislation is done with this in mind and is more effective. You say that, in principle, the Government is resolute in its commitment to supporting that approach, but in practice, has there been—? I note in the minutes of the last cross-party group on human rights, which led to the letter that you referred to, that you, Charles, talked about a cooling of enthusiasm towards legislative approaches, especially in regard to some treaties. So, I don't know if you could just speak a little bit to that.

Yes. This is outlined in our interim report, which is, obviously, going on for a year and a half plus now. So, I think there's a sense of that being a product of a slightly different time. As I say, back then we were facing quite challenging legislation from the UK Government, so very much our thoughts were on, 'What can we do to mitigate, for example, the UK's potential withdrawal from the European convention on human rights? What could we do if the UK Government withdrew the Human Rights Act 1998, potentially even the Equality Act 2010?' So, we were in that space, and, indeed, I think the Welsh Government was in that space as well. So, that lent itself to an initial consideration for us of, yes, looking at the CRPD and CEDAW, which are the programme for government commitments, but then also that invitation to look at wider rights. So, we were talking, for example, about economic and social rights; ICERD as well, the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination; the UN's principles for older persons; bespoke LGBTQ rights, and, indeed, even a human right to a healthy and sustainable environment. So, we were in that space of wanting to explore all of that.

Over the course of LOWG's work, the political landscape changed, of course, as did the financial landscape, so the Welsh Government budget came in and was problematic for the voluntary sector; there were cuts across a number of different portfolios, and I think, in that context then, given the limited capacity we had, Welsh Government I think quite rightly steered us into focusing our analysis more on CEDAW and CRPD, because it gave us something to work on, something to focus on and they were the programme for government commitments.

So, that's kind of the context around how I think we've been channelled a little bit more towards those treaties, but it remains the case that LOWG has always been clear that, once we've developed and applied our template and we have a systematic approach to looking at how we can incorporate these rights within the Welsh legal context, we would like to see that applied to a wider range of rights as well, because part of this work, for us, is very much about addressing the patchwork approach we have to rights in Wales at the moment, and that it's a bit more equitable across the different groups of protected characteristics.

Very good.

Sorry. I think Simon wanted to just come in there.

Oh. Simon, yes.

Can I just add something? I think there are some other points worth making in relation to what might appear to be a cooling towards incorporation. I think it's worth mentioning—as we have mentioned—the turbulence at the UK level, but in terms of incorporation, that had a very practical impact in Scotland with the UK Government's challenge in the Supreme Court to the incorporation of the UNCRC legislation there. And I think it's quite understandable that there would then be a certain nervousness in Wales about whether or not we can actually progress incorporation of human rights generally. And Wales, I think, has always been quite creative within the boundaries of devolution, and I think, possibly, what might have cooled a little is that creativity—not the ambition to progress, but how we do it. I think, where that has pushed LOWG is to be, if you like, more forensic than we might otherwise have been, and to be more analytical on a right-by-right basis, rather than on a treaty-by-treaty basis. And although I think, personally, there are differences between where Scotland is going on incorporation and where Wales wants to go on incorporation, not least the limitation of—. Well, Wales is quite clear that human rights incorporation is going to be limited to the exercise of devolved functions. I think, still, that hostility towards what was going on in Scotland had a chilling effect on our work here in Wales. And even though there has been a change of Government, I think, in many ways, it might have been a good thing that we take that forensic approach to guard against any future challenge.

I think the other point that's worth making—and I don't think it's been said yet—is that I don't think we can achieve what was in the recommendation, which was legislation to be introduced before the end of this Senedd. I think that's unsaid, but it's worth saying it. I think the best we can think about is possibly a Green Paper and a timeline for how we move forward.

And finally, just a last question. I think, as Sioned said, you've made a compelling case for incorporation. What could we do on this committee to help move that along?

Okay. I think one of the things that would be useful, given where we are in the timeline and when the research took place and where we are now, and the change of Government we've had in Wales, a recommitment to incorporation, a statement—a public statement—of recommitment made to this committee from Ministers at the very highest level would be very helpful indeed. I think perhaps pushing the Welsh Government on what resources they might be making available, but I think there have been some positive developments, which Charles has outlined there, in terms of resources that might be forthcoming. I think publication, a request to publish the notes of HRAG meetings in particular, which will incorporate LOWG meetings, but again, I think there have been some developments there very recently, where those minutes have been published. And I think, in relation to other areas, work is ongoing. And I think, for me, it's more around incorporation, restating the commitment and giving a little bit more of an emphasis on that area of work—incorporation.

I'd just add that maybe maintaining an active inquiry brief and vigilance in this space, just to hold the work accountable on an ongoing basis, would probably be helpful as well.

I suppose I just want to probe a bit further. How much has the schizophrenic attitude towards human rights from the previous UK Government really hampered progress on this subject? I understand the Welsh Government won't want to enter into legislation that then gets knocked back and goes into the courts, because we could be doing something else with that resource. How significant is it that I understand that the Scottish Government has now dropped any legislation from its programme for government for the remainder of its term in office until 2026?

Obviously, the announcements around the Scottish Government's legislation are very, very fresh indeed. We haven't met in LOWG and discussed that development since that announcement, but it will probably come up, I think, at the human rights advisory group later this month, which is meeting. For me, I'd say the biggest hampering of LOWG's work as a result of the UK Government's legislation is actually a very pragmatic one, purely in the sense that, as I said earlier, the people involved in LOWG and HRAG that are trying to advance this work are the exact same group of organisations that have to constantly advocate against regressive legislation at the UK level. So, under the previous Government, the UK Government, that ate up a substantial amount of time and resource. It was, in fact, quite difficult to advance LOWG's work substantively, as the UK Government's proposals were not always clear around how they would function at the devolved level. That was not impact assessed, that was not clear from the legislation, so that needed unpacking. There was a need for Simon and me to support civil society in Wales to understand and to push back against those proposals. So, there was a double-edge of both pragmatic capacity drain, but also substantive lack of clarity around the impact that this legislation would have, and it was difficult for us to think about, substantively, what the legislative framework for a human rights Act in Wales would look like when we weren't entirely sure what the UK legal frameworks would look like even a year on.

Okay. Thank you for that clarity. Can I bring Carolyn Thomas in now?

Okay. Thank you. The report makes a number of recommendations around guidance on human rights. How effectively is the Welsh Government fulfilling its commitment to take a co-ordinated approach? Sarah mentioned earlier about making sure frameworks are clear and consistent for public bodies. So, just your views on that, really—about the co-ordinated approach from Welsh Government. Have they moved forward with that?

I think not being part of HRAG, I don't see as much on the progress that's been made in that area as perhaps compared to the others.

I think there is progress being made in that area. One of the recommendations was a statement on the value of human rights, and I think certainly progress has been made in that area. One of the benefits of working on human rights in Wales is we are a small community, so there's a lot of involvement of stakeholders. But, of course, one of the issues that that raises then is that it takes time to work processes through. But I think progress has been made in that area on a fully consultative basis via HRAG. I think progress is being made on guidance, on a human rights approach, and particularly with reference to work that's already been done, for example, on a children's rights approach, by myself and my colleague Rhian Croke, but also in partnership with the Children's Commissioner for Wales on a children's rights approach, which is essentially a human rights approach for children. So, I think there's progress there in how that could be used as guidance on a human rights approach in Wales.

I think there is progress being made on the incorporation of human rights considerations into integrated impact assessments, and there's some really good work being done by the officials in that space. In many ways, all of this takes time, because—. I think, when we first presented the report, the fact that it had 40 recommendations and not three came as a bit of a surprise. But, I think, if you look at, for example, the output of UN treaty bodies, it's quite clear that you need to take a holistic approach to human rights; you need to work at all different levels. So, there's a lot of work that needs to be done, and I think, myself, I've seen some very good work that's going on—well, behind the scenes, really. It could be more upfronted, if you like, via HRAG minutes. But I'm confident we're getting there.

Okay. Yes, Charles.

Sorry. Just to add to what Simon has said, I fully agree with what he has said, but I should have said this in answer to your first question, Chair, obviously. The human rights advisory group does serve as a platform in terms of monitoring and reporting for the Welsh Government, to report progress against the recommendations in the ‘Strengthening and advancing equality and human rights in Wales’ report. So, they do report progress across the raft of recommendations to that group, and, as Simon says, they have reported on work on a statement of commitment for the Welsh Government and public authorities in Wales on human rights. I've also clocked that, yes, they are working on the integrated impact assessment work and developing tools and guidance in that space. They've been working on the curriculum-specific duties. They're quite a small team in the Welsh Government, the officials. It is a small team, and, as Simon says, there are a lot of recommendations. I understand they do a lot of work to support the Welsh Government's contribution to the UN committees as well. So, there is progress across the raft of recommendations, but, much like the LOWG's work, capacity is spread thin.

Thanks. I remember, as a councillor, we were having the reports presented to us, and then there was a list of measures at the end of the report, sort of financial implications, equality impact assessment and then the future generations well-being Act was added to it as well. But I think—. I guess, as a councillor, you'd need to really know what the equality impact assessment was, and so having clear guidance for everybody is really important, going forward, to make sure that it is actually happening, you're not just relying on officials or—. You know, making sure that that's happening. So, do you actually look at other organisations, then, as well, and make sure that they are following equality impact assessments, then, in human rights? Is that part of your role as well?

It's not specifically what LOWG is looking at. So, we're looking in quite a narrow focus at recommendations 1 and 25, about incorporating human rights and making rights justiciable for people before courts and tribunals. LOWG is maintaining an awareness and looking broadly around things like guidance and impact assessments as a part of our consideration of implementation, when we do eventually arrive at legislation. So, it's on our radar, but it's not something that we're actively working on at the moment.

Could I add something to that? It's just, in terms of progress made generally by, say, for example, public authorities in this area, they will obviously look to the Welsh Government for leadership, and, once the statement is published, for example, you would really hope that there would be some assessment of the take-up of that statement by public authorities in their own policy documents, and one of the spaces that I think you could look for that is in well-being plans—you know, to what extent are human rights now being integrated into well-being plans. And, when I last looked at them, it was very rare. There may be some mention of children's rights—for obvious reasons; children's rights are prioritised in Wales, and have been for a long time. But, actually, that would seem to be the point where you could monitor what is the take-up, what is the push down of human rights from the Welsh Government to public authorities and what is the recognition of human rights at public authority level.

In terms of what work other organisations are doing, it's difficult to assess, really. I come across pockets of good practice in my work, but my work is very limited. I put some examples into the submission I made for the committee of where, for example, children's rights have been integrated into the work of the city and county of Swansea, Cardiff Council and Abertawe Bro Morgannwg Health Board. So, there are pockets of good practice out there, and one of the benefits of a human rights approach is it is meant to provide principles as a way of guidance, but then develop a bank of templates, if you like, of case studies, of good examples for others to follow. So, the sooner we get there on a human rights approach for Wales, the sooner we can start to develop that bank of good practice. And I know—well, I'm fairly confident—there'd be a number of good contributions from across Wales there.

I read that, in the report, you said:

'The obsession with well-being as a driver of public policy in Wales has potential to distract from progress on human rights'.

So, you wanted more concrete measures under 'assessing equality and human rights'. So, rather than—. Well-being is very generic and—.

Yes, I think that was the finding from the evidence, that stakeholders felt that you could apply many meanings to the well-being goals themselves and they were, as you say, generic. I hesitate to use the word 'vague'; I wouldn't say they're vague, but they are wide-reaching, let's put it that way, as well as—. Human rights tend to be far more concrete; they relate to—. I think Just Fair refers to socioeconomic rights, for example, as everyday rights—so, things like housing, income, work, healthcare, social care.

Sorry, I've gone off-topic here. The Welsh Government committed to carry out a review of the Wales-specific equality duties of the public sector equality duty. So, have you been involved with that work?

I haven't, no.

No. No, right, okay. And the Welsh Government committed to incorporating human rights into integrated impact assessments, which is what we discussed earlier. The Welsh Government has yet to report to the advisory group on the content of the new IAA template on guidance on human rights to accompany the IAA. Have you had sight of it, the integrated impact assessment? Okay, no, not seen that.

I've seen versions of the integrated impact assessment; I wouldn't want to say which is the most recent version I've seen. And, as I say, I think developments in that space are looking positive.

Okay. And we talked about actions for other organisations—local authorities we talked about—but the future generations commissioner, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, Welsh commissioners, what progress do you think has been made by these organisations to take forward the recommendations in the report, do you think?

There were recommendations aimed at others with a role to play in human rights, and that's inevitable when it comes to human rights. It would have been a lot more straightforward if we'd found that the only people that had a role in human rights were Government, and we could have just focused our recommendations there, but that wasn't the case. So, we made recommendations that included recommendations aimed at the Equality and Human Rights Commission. I'm not aware of what progress is being made in relation to those recommendations by the commission. The most recent, I think, 'Is Wales Fairer?' report refers to progress on the Wales-specific public sector equality duty and the human rights approach by the Welsh Government. And in our report, we suggested that the EHRC may wish to give guidance in that space, but the 'Is Wales Fairer?' report refers to ongoing work by the Welsh Government.

Okay, thank you.

One of the problems here is that it's great to make declarations; it's really how do we have meaningful targets to enable us to assess what impact it's having on the lives of citizens. We can have Cardiff being a child-friendly city and Swansea a human rights city, but what impact does it really have on the child in Cardiff or the other individual in Swansea? How are we going to make this come alive for ordinary people?

Yes. I think that's a real challenge because I think, for example, incorporation works and operates at a different level to day-to-day practice of human rights, and there are lots of layers in between; it's stratified, if you like. And one of the things that we found in the research, and I think we knew this as researchers in any event, is that it's extremely difficult, if not impossible—I think we actually said that in our research—to determine the causative link, if any causative link, directly between incorporation, for example, and the experience of human rights on the ground, simply because too many factors intervene: funding, policy, attitude, commitment—you know, events take place.

I think all we can really say is that incorporation sets the framework for a culture of human rights. So, human rights is done in policy, and you would hope that human rights reflected in policy would reflect in human rights experience on the ground, and there are certainly some examples of that in relation to children's rights, which we mentioned in our 2018 report. But I think there is this difficulty of what difference is it going to make.

But one of the things that we said in our recommendations—. I think we made two recommendations on monitoring, and that monitoring should be based on human rights targets, so concrete human rights targets. So, where you have human rights to, for example, an adequate standard of living, which includes adequate housing, adequate clothing, adequate food, you set targets in relation to those concrete objectives. And I think it was our conclusion that, by drawing on human rights, you would have more concrete targets for measuring progress in Wales.

Thank you. Sioned Williams. Sorry, Joel, did you want to come in?

Sorry about that. It was just a quick question, really, just to touch upon, Simon, what you mentioned there about human rights and how there seems to be a greater awareness of human rights towards children. And you mentioned earlier then about how Government organisations, maybe even third sector organisations, have a growing awareness of human rights. But what about the individual on the street, if that makes sense? I know a few years ago you mentioned, 'If you don't know what your human rights are, how do you know if they've been breached?' or something like that, if I remember rightly, and I just wanted to get your ideas there, because, from a councillor background—. I used to be a councillor, and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 came in, and that was always being cited in planning meetings, for example, but no-one knew anything about it. The planning officers didn't really know how that fitted in with planning policy; the lawyers didn't really know where that fitted into it. And I think it leads on to a wider field, then, about judicial reviews and all that, and I just wanted to get your views on that, really.

Yes. I think raising awareness of human rights is crucially important, and one of the ways you do that, of course, is you signal that through legislation. It's got, if you like, a confirmatory role, legislation: this is what we value in Wales. Lots of people know about the Human Rights Act 1998, for example. They may not know the specifics of human rights within the legislation, but they know about the Human Rights Act, and I think that's the first step in terms of raising awareness.

I think the statement of support for human rights at the public authority level and the Welsh Government level appearing on all policies is significant, because a lot of people do actually read the Welsh Government policy, public authority policy, and if it's up there, front and centre, 'We support human rights, and this is how we support it in this policy', then there'll be a growing awareness of how human rights are relevant to what government in Wales is all about. But, actually, we did, in our report, as well, make recommendations on raising awareness of human rights in Wales, and to do that through a campaign that is addressed at members of the public, not just at Government officials or Ministers or Senedd Members or councillors, but at members of the public. Because, as you said—where you started—if people don't know about their rights, how are they going to take action to enforce their rights?

Charles.

I agree with everything Simon's just said, but also add that I don't think it's a coincidence that we have greater awareness in Wales around the human rights of children, when we have indirect incorporation of the UNCRC. So, I think it's absolutely an expectation—I think this applies across the board to law, really—that the level of awareness and culture shift that you'd expect when you introduce legislation is commensurate to the power of the duties contained therein. So, we've achieved quite a good degree of awareness with indirect incorporation of the UNCRC. I think the expectation is that we'd see a similar shift if we had direct incorporation of a wider range of human rights as well. I think awareness is absolutely key, and this does feature as a part of the legislative options group's work as well. We're considering the various different aspects of a human rights scheme, for instance, that we'd expect to accompany the legislation, which does feature educational measures as well as awareness-raising measures. So, that does feature as part of our thinking.

We're also thinking a little bit about administrative justice as well, and this touches on the previous question, Chair, around the difference this can make to people's lives. Because we're thinking, for example, around the powers of the ombudsman, for instance, and whether that's sufficient as an extremely accessible vehicle for people to enforce their rights; whether we need new human rights infrastructure in Wales to support better advocacy and awareness building, for example; whether we need new bespoke mechanisms within local authorities for human rights issues to be flagged specifically. Obviously, Sarah is leading on a lot of this thinking for us.

If I may, I think there are a number of recommendations that we have made around raising awareness and education where there has already been progress. We made a recommendation around the 'what matters' code to the new Curriculum for Wales, and having looked at the content of that new curriculum and the humanities section in particular, there's direct reference to the conventions, to accountability, to governance and to justice. As a parent, I've seen that in action as well, and I think it's working very well.

Recommendation 35 was about public legal education. I think the Law Council of Wales—. It was yet to be established at the time, so we made recommendations towards any law council for Wales that is established playing an important role in promoting legal education, training and awareness about specifically the distinctiveness of Welsh laws. That includes where we already have provisions around human rights and equality and how that might change in the future. They have two working groups in the law council; one is on education and one is a training working group. They've been discussing the baseline for the Welsh curriculum in Welsh university law schools, and the importance of understanding the distinctiveness of Welsh law. That then feeds into the profession. It then feeds into students who would go on to a number of different areas of work. They've also been doing some work around public legal education, and public understanding of the law that applies in Wales. So, it's not purely focused on equality and human rights, but it has a lot of potential to go in that direction.

And there's the important work that's done at a community level by the third sector. We've done some other research recently. It really goes back to that idea that human rights begin in small places close to home, and so it's the community-based organisations, community hubs, community centres, that have, I think, a real potential to engage with people, as do organisations like Citizens Advice and law centres. So, there is a lot of infrastructure there. It's struggling for a number of reasons, but I think that's the way to reach people. I think the work that was done by the independent constitutional commission for Wales as well gives us a really interesting example, because it's even more difficult to translate these high-level constitutional principles into people's everyday experiences than it is with human rights, and particularly social and economic rights. I think we can learn a lot from the work that they did in terms of engaging with the public.

One recommendation that I want to mention specifically is the need for the Welsh Government to take a lead in a public awareness campaign, in particular to tackle misconceptions about human rights. Given where we are at the moment in society, I think it's important that we get back on track with people's understanding of human rights being human rights for everyone, and to tackle some of the misconceptions that are being perpetuated about human rights, primarily as a result of some of the policies pursued outside of Wales. I think the Welsh Government now should take a lead in that space. It is one of our recommendations.

Thank you. Sioned Williams.

Roeddwn i'n mynd i ofyn, a dweud y gwir, am yr union beth yna, achos mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi ymrwymo i lunio cynllun cyfathrebu hawliau dynol. Rŷn ni wedi eich clywed chi'n sôn am beth tystiolaeth o hyn, ond sut allen nhw arwain ar y gwaith yma? Achos, mewn ffordd, mae hi'n hen bryd, ac efallai eu bod nhw'n llai petrus nawr yn sgil y newidiadau gwleidyddol sydd wedi bod yn San Steffan. Mae angen gwneud hynny, ond ydych chi'n cytuno bod angen hefyd trio mynd i'r afael â'r sinigiaeth sydd wedi codi o ran asesiadau effaith? Achos, fel clywsom ni sawl Aelod yn sôn, mae awdurdodau lleol a chyrff cyhoeddus yn cael y checklist yma ac weithiau dydy'r cyhoedd ddim yn teimlo bod yr hawliau yna wedi eu hystyried yn llawn, neu, os ydyn nhw wedi cael eu hystyried, eu bod nhw wedyn yn cael eu diystyru. Rŷn ni wedi gweld enghreifftiau o Lywodraeth Cymru yn gwneud hyn, onid ydym ni, o ran prydau bwyd am ddim yn ystod y gwyliau haf ac yn y blaen. Felly, beth yw rôl Llywodraeth Cymru yn hyn? Sut yr hoffech chi weld y cynllun cyfathrebu yma'n datblygu a pha fath o arweinyddiaeth sydd ei hangen ar wahân i ddeddfwriaeth, fel y gwnaethoch chi sôn?

If I may, I'll differentiate between two things. One is the leadership on process, to make sure that they themselves, but also public authorities, follow the correct approach in taking human rights into consideration in developing their policies, because if they don't and they get it wrong, that will lead to scepticism. If people's human rights are not properly considered in policy, then it will lead to a good deal of scepticism and pushback against human rights more broadly. So, I think, at a process level, it's important that the Welsh Government take a lead in how you do human rights in practice at a policy level.

I think in terms of campaigning, this is one of the areas—. In fact, in most of our recommendations, we provided a little bit of detail on what could be done. We had things like a public awareness campaign that might include a fact sheet on the key principles of human rights; campaigns in a range of media; a poster campaign targeted at public spaces. I remember a very good campaign—I can't remember when it was now—by the British Institute of Human Rights, which took individuals and said, 'I needed the Human Rights Act' when there was a threat to the Human Rights Act, explaining why an ordinary individual benefited from the Human Rights Act. And that's the other thing that we recommend: to build up a bank of case studies as to why human rights are important for people. So, I think the Welsh Government could take a lead in that space and, as I said, I think it's an important time for human rights in the UK and Wales, given where we are and the misconceptions that have been perpetuated about human rights generally.

Allaf i jest pigo lan rhywbeth y gwnaethoch chi sôn amdano, Sarah, yn fanna, ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd eiriolaeth i sector sydd wedi gwneud lot o'r gwaith yma drwy adolygiadau barnwrol a rhoi cyngor, ac yn y blaen, ond lle mae pwysau arnyn nhw ar hyn o bryd? Felly, ydych chi'n teimlo, yn sgil y pwysau ariannol sydd arnyn nhw, fod hyn yn peryglu'r gwaith maen nhw'n ei wneud ac felly fod yr agenda sydd gan Lywodraeth Cymru yn cael ei beryglu gan benderfyniadau eraill o ran cefnogaeth i'r sectorau hynny?

Gwnaf i siarad yn Saesneg, jest i wneud yn siŵr.

You're well aware, I think, as a committee of legal aid reforms and the impact on the sector—advice deserts, the closure of law firms, all of the impacts that these things have had. Significant reforms are needed to access to justice, but there are real challenges there in the context of devolution. I know that £12 million has been made available per year under the single advice fund. I think one of the benefits of that is that it has previously been on a shorter term period and now it's for a three-year period. I think it could be even longer than that, to be honest, to help the sustainability of the advice services that are delivering those kinds of funds. There has been some research, more around the root causes of need, and so on. So, I think the single advice fund is a good start and it is improving things. I think there has been some research into that approach, although I haven't seen the reports of that research yet.

We mentioned in the research as well that there is the national advice network in Wales and there are regional advice networks, and although they've not explicitly done work around raising awareness of human rights, that's something that could be done. We're in a position where access to justice is incredibly challenging, without some very significant changes. We still see, despite doing research in this field for a very long time, there has been a development of the public law bar in Wales and the availability of advocates from Wales, but we still see very few judicial review claims, for example, per head of population from Wales than we see from parts of England and some of the other devolved nations. Part of that, our research suggests, is that there are higher rates of settlement. There are actually higher rates of decisions being made right first time in the context of human rights and equality and other areas of public administration.

So, there are a number of reasons why you don't see that much litigation. Some of it is positive. I think some of it is because there is good decision making. But in other areas that is a struggle, because then we don't see so much of a court-based jurisprudence developing around the standards and that really strong level of enforcement. But we've seen a pro bono committee for Wales that's been established. I see that as a great job of bringing people together, sharing information, sharing best practice. But it's really important that that can't be a substitute for access to legal aid funding and advice, and neither can technology be a substitute for in-person advice. These things need to all come together.

I think it's something that both Charles and Simon have mentioned in a number of different ways: the courts are not the only place where we can have accountability and, to some degree, a level of enforcement. The Public Services Ombudsman for Wales, for example, produces an annual casebook that talks about equality and human rights. So, although they can't make binding decisions, they're not there to determine whether the law has been breached or not in that sense, failure to comply with human rights duties and equality duties is a potential example of maladministration and there are remedies that the ombudsman can give. We have the same, I think, in Wales—. Simon mentioned creativity; I think that context of the administrative justice sector that we have—so the ombudsman, the commissioners, the regulators and all of these different bodies—is quite a well-developed sector in Wales comparatively. They work well together, perhaps compared with some other nations, in terms of the degree of interaction between them and understanding of what each is doing and what each can deliver. So, there are a number of different ways we can improve access to justice that aren't necessarily always court based, as well.

Just to add to the point about pressures that the sector is under and the risks to the work that represents, I work very closely with Wales Council for Voluntary Action and we'd absolutely see the voluntary sector as a key partner throughout this work from the Welsh Government's perspective, but also, as Sarah says, in the delivery and awareness raising of human rights.

You're absolutely right, it is absolutely the case that the sector is under considerable pressure at the moment from a number of different fronts. I can give one example by virtue of the closure of Chwarae Teg, obviously a while ago, and the ripple effect that that has, for example, on this sector. So, we have Women's Equality Network Wales, for example, on the legislative options working group bringing the expertise around women's rights, but, of course, they've had to take on some of the work as a result of Chwarae Teg's closure, not necessarily with more funding. So, that's an increasing pressure.

More broadly, across the board, we see in the voluntary sector that organisations are, quite frankly, fighting to remain in place. The funding is that challenging. So, being asked to take on more work constantly, more advocacy services and support communities more and more as demand for their services increases is just very challenging for the sector.

Diolch. Allaf i jest ofyn ynglŷn â'r dyfodol? Beth ŷch chi'n rhagweld bydd y prif ddatblygiadau a beth hoffech chi eu gweld fel y prif ddatblygiadau yng Nghymru o ran y blaenoriaethau ar gyfer y blynyddoedd i ddod? So, beth hoffech chi ei weld a beth ŷch chi'n meddwl sy'n mynd i ddigwydd?

My area of focus in my work is at the framework level for human rights. So, personally, I would like to see a human rights Bill for Wales, and I would like to see that enacted. I'd like to see it incorporate treaties that pay particular attention to socioeconomic rights, because they align very neatly with devolved competences. I would like to see greater awareness of human rights. I would like to see government—and I talk about government at all levels in Wales—more strongly promoting human rights as part of their day-to-day business. I would like to see processes that are closely aligned to human rights, for example impact assessments. I'd like to see a human rights approach. And then, moving forward in the future, I would like to see that translate into better human rights outcomes for people on the ground. As I say, it's difficult to establish the causative link directly, but I'm fairly confident that if we get the framework right, then it will have benefits for individuals on a day-to-day, lived experience basis.

Felly, mae cael y Ddeddf—

To have that human rights Bill, for you—it's the first thing you mentioned—is of supreme importance.

Yes. For me, it would be, based on my commitment to human rights, my experience of children's rights in Wales and my understanding of the literature around human rights and research that's out there globally, and this research, crucially, that we carried out in Wales.

Okay. Diolch. Charles.

Simon has put that so eloquently, I'll struggle to add to it, to be honest. Obviously, in my capacity as chair of the legislative options working group—our task is to deliver options for this—I would absolutely like to see legislation brought forward in this space. I suppose, on a slightly more personal professional level, one development I'd like to see is broader policy in Wales speaking more to the language of human rights. I'd like to see a slightly more holistic approach across how the Welsh Government delivers policy that uses the language of human rights to address that awareness issue and to make things a bit more consistent across the board, and also to plug the gaps we were talking about earlier about well-being and the connection with human rights, as well. So, I'd like to see our action plans, moving forward, framed in human rights terms as well, which is not always the case currently.

A chi?

Just to add to that, I suppose, more generally, to see access to justice improved for people in a number of ways, with respect to all sorts of different legal rights and entitlements that they have, but to acknowledge that courts and tribunals are only a part of that; there are a number of different bodies that can be involved in that and supporting people and ensuring that their rights are respected, so going back to that thinking creatively about who can be involved in that and how.

Yes. Given that justice isn't devolved, what can the Welsh Government do towards achieving that aim of creating better access to justice?

I think there are a number of things that it is doing. I mean, in the plan, 'Delivering Justice for Wales', I know there are areas of frustration, for sure, in there, but there are some areas of improvement. I think there have been some improvements in terms of getting data for Wales and understanding the access to justice data and disaggregated data so that we can know what actually is going on in Wales. I think there are some other areas—I mean, the tribunals will be an interesting development for Wales. They are, at the moment, a fairly narrow set of devolved tribunals, but there are important proposals there: for the new system to modernise, improve efficiency and to provide more independent structures, but the base aim of that is to improve access to justice for people in Wales. And there is likely to be, within that, an appellate tribunal for Wales, which could potentially even be a superior court of record for Wales, so it starts to show what that might look like in future and see the way that those tribunals will actually develop.

But, I think, probably in the access to justice space, a little bit like the human rights and equality space, we will potentially see some changes and there have been ongoing reviews into legal aid and early legal help and all of these issues, so there might be some more positive developments in terms of early legal help, as well, and community-based legal support, which will benefit Wales as well.

Diolch.

I have to jump in, because I mentioned the devolution of justice, but I suppose one thing that would be good to see—and I'm conscious that this is going to take place, or supposedly, based on the announcements that were made—the Scottish Government is going to be trying to engage the UK Government more constructively around opening up a more permissive space for ambitious reform in this space, so it would be remiss, obviously, to leave Wales out of that. So, it would be good to see a more collaborative discourse start to take shape between the Welsh Government and the UK Government that would enable us to take some of this forward more easily.

Diolch. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Very good. Has anybody got any further questions? Joel.

Thank you, Chair. It was just to touch upon the—. You mentioned there, Charles, what the Scottish Government are doing to look at maybe more collaboration with the UK Government and whether or not the Welsh Government could do that. Is there a concern, then, that the Welsh Government could be taking on too much, because, as you mentioned earlier, some of the issues that you’re experiencing are because of a delay on the Welsh Government’s side, sort of thing? Again, one of the things that always comes back at me from a casework point of view or an advocacy point of view, I suppose, when I meet with organisations, is that implementation gap. There are warm words coming from the Welsh Government, but on the ground it doesn’t get implemented. Is that a concern there, do you think?

I think certainly I’d like to see more resources made available to the officials to advance this work. I think that would help. It’s hard to say, to be honest, at this stage—I’m really not sure. In relation to what I was previously saying, I do think it’s quite important, more generally across the board, to open up better inter-governmental collaboration following the last few years of tensions we’ve had around the UK Government and the Welsh Government. There are significant capacity constraints. We know that our current human rights frameworks are difficult to apply. We know there are implementation gaps and we know that there are people who aren’t able to get their rights enforced. We’d like to see that addressed, but I think it’s a substantial body of work and there’s no getting around that it is going to be resource intensive to figure out.

Thank you.

One of the constant themes in our negotiations with the Government is around the need for integrated impact assessments, particularly around budgetary proposals and the impact it has on different protected characteristics groups. Is that resistance to do with capacity or is it a reluctance to open up a particular can of worms? Is this something that either the legislative options group or the human rights action group has actually discussed, because it’s the subject of a lot of correspondence with the Finance Committee and us, and the Welsh Government as well?

I don’t think officials have raised specific concerns with us on that level of detail of those integrated impact assessments yet. Certainly, it has featured as a part of our conversations. As I said earlier, we’ve been thinking about a human rights scheme and the multitude of measures that we see as needing to be implemented or strengthened as a part of a human rights Wales Act. Certainly, impact assessment has featured as a part of those conversations, as has the need to consider human rights budgeting, for instance, as a change in how we look at finance, moving forward. But, I don’t think we’re at the level of detail, unfortunately, yet where those concerns have been raised with us by officials.

I mean, you can see there’s a conflict in expending resources on something that you know you’re not going to have the resources to implement, but, if you’re not asking the questions, then you can’t even be intellectually interrogating the policy.

I think, from my experience of working on this, including on children’s rights impact assessments, I think there’s a distinction between what can go into the process—and, as I’ve already said, I think there’s some good work going on within the Welsh Government in integrating human rights into the integrated impact assessment—and then what that impact assessment is actually applied to. There’s been a long-standing issue in the field of children’s rights that a children’s rights impact assessment should be done on the Welsh Government budget generally, and we know about the resistance to that. I think the resistance to that is probably different to the resistance to integrating something into the process. That’s probably more a concern—I don’t know, but it’s probably more a concern—about resources and capacity to actually apply that, rather than, I think, what application of the impact assessment might turn up. I don’t necessarily think officials and Ministers or Cabinet Secretaries are necessarily afraid of the results of the impact assessment; I think it’s just a case of do they have the resource to be able to do it.

Okay, thank you. That's helpful. Unless there are any further questions, I’d like to thank you all for coming along today. I think the fact you’ve all made the journey to be here in person tells us a lot about your commitment to human rights, and we thank you for that. We will, obviously, be sending you a transcript of your evidence, and please do correct it if we’ve recorded it wrong. So, thank you very much indeed, all of you, for coming. The committee will now take a break until 3.15 p.m., until our next session with the IMA.