Equality and Social Justice Committee

Yn gyntaf, prynhawn da, a diolch am y cyfle i ddod yma y prynhawn yma ac i ateb cwestiynau.

I think, when I think about the experiences and skills that I believe that I bring to the role, I have over 20 years' experience of working in the public and voluntary sector here in Wales, and I think that's given me a really enhanced understanding and knowledge of our legislative and policy framework here in Wales, but also the partnerships and the governance arrangements that we have in Wales that enable us to get things done, and knowing how things work in Wales.

In 2015, I was also appointed as the first national adviser for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in Wales, and I think that national public appointment showed how I brought a credibility and legitimacy to a national role. I helped to establish that role. And that role, as well as all of the other work that I do, really had the survivors of violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence at the heart of what I did. In that role, I listened to them, their experiences, and made sure that their voice was what I championed here at Welsh Government level, but also with partners, to improve responses and services for individuals and families who had experienced domestic abuse.

But also, in the work that I've done more recently—so, chairing domestic homicide reviews and also developing strategies across Wales—this work has really given me an enhanced and an in-depth understanding of the issues that face older people in Wales. So, a number of the domestic homicide reviews that I've chaired have involved older victims of domestic abuse, and, in undertaking those reviews, I've started to understand what matters to older people in their day-to-day lives, and some of the challenges and issues they experience in terms of having their voices heard, being able to access services, the social isolation and loneliness that they experience, but also the discrimination and prejudice that they experience as older people in terms of transport, living in rural areas, accessibility of services, access to services in the language of their own choice. And I think, when I've looked at all of those experiences together, I feel that they give me a really good foundation for this role.

But also I think I bring some key qualities to the role of the commissioner. So, firstly, as a communicator, I'm somebody who would like to think that I'm quite an effective and articulative communicator—I am a fluent Welsh speaker—but also how I've always listened to individuals, and feed back to them in terms of their experiences and the difference that it's making to my work. I'm experienced in working with the media, and, here in Wales, I'm often called upon to give observations and contribute to both English and Welsh news programmes and current affairs in terms of a range of issues, not just around violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, but around equality, discrimination and rights.

And I think that one of the things that I do is that I bring a genuine interest in people's experiences. I want to hear what's important to people. I want to hear what can make a difference to their lives when things are working well, but, when things haven't worked well, how things could have been improved for them—I'm somebody who has always worked well with people; I spend time and invest time and energy getting to know individuals, what's important to them—and then to also be able to look at how we can work together to actually reach shared outcomes. I think that's really important, thinking about this role in particular, working with older people in our communities across Wales but also with public bodies, with Welsh Government officials, with the Senedd, but also wider partners in other nations across the UK and wider, to really build those relationships and understand how we can work together to enable everybody in Wales to age well.

I think also, when I look back at the work that I've done and my experiences, I bring leadership qualities to this role that I think are really important to be able to set a vision in collaboration and consultation with individuals and then to be really clear about how we're going to meet that vision in Wales to support everyone to age well. I'm somebody who's very resilient and determined, which I think is needed in this role, but also somebody who can be brave and bold in terms of the decisions that are made, and work on an evidence base. So, from listening to older people and their experiences, to be able to bring their voice, to protect and safeguard their rights, and to challenge and not being afraid to challenge when that's needed, I think that's really critical to this role. But I'm also somebody who's really passionate about rights and values, and this role is very much in line with my values around justice, fairness and the rights of older people here in Wales. Also, I think I'm somebody who's ambitious, not necessarily for myself, but for older people in Wales and what together we can achieve for older people, not only in the here and now, but for our future generations.

Well, thank you very much for that very comprehensive answer. You have said that the importance of the older people's commissioner's office is to be a strong advocate for older people in Wales, ensuring their voices are heard and that their rights are upheld. How do you individually see you doing that?

I think one of the things—. Whilst I think it's right to celebrate the work that has been done in Wales around promoting and safeguarding rights by the current commissioner, former commissioners and wider partners, I think there is still really a need to promote and raise awareness of older people's rights. I don't think that our older population as a whole understand and are aware of the rights that they have, and, for individuals, sometimes that self-imposed ageism—people sometimes believe that their rights diminish as they get older, and they don't. I think it's really important for the older people's commissioner to be visible, to be approachable, to be seen in the places where older people live and work and socialise, and to be able to promote those rights, so that raising awareness and people understand and are empowered to actually understand their rights and to be able to challenge them when those rights are not upheld, whether that's within our public services or within their community—so, certainly, visibility and the messaging of the older people's commissioner.

And how we do that is really important, because I think, whilst we can look at campaigns and communications, it's about ensuring those campaigns and communications reach our older people in our communities. And I think one of the challenges is around how we reach older people who are furthest away from those communications. So, how do we look not only at putting posters, information, guidance and information in places where older people are—so, if we're thinking about GPs, pharmacies, community centres, those places where older people live and work and are cared for—but also how we can use some of our regional and national press to reach those individuals? So, thinking about papers, local papers, papers that local authorities would publish that go to every home, so we're not necessarily relying on older people and individuals to go and find that information—it's delivered to them. Can we look at some innovative ways of doing that, thinking about what messages go to every home in Wales and how we can include messages around older people's rights on those, not just for older people, but for their families, for their friends in the community, that can help us raise that awareness? But also what work do we do with our practitioners and our workforce across Wales who are working with older people, whether that's thinking about training or awareness sessions with them? But we really need to embed those rights within our public services in Wales, and how we can do that with partners, working with our public bodies, so that our services do become rights-based services. But, in doing that, being then able to support public services in doing that, but also to scrutinise and challenge them when those rights are not being upheld within our services.

So, I think it's very much around working with older people to understand their experiences and examples of when their rights haven't been upheld, but also when they have been and what's worked well so we can share that good practice and we can use those examples across Wales. So, it's working with older people, working with and alongside our public bodies to encourage and embed those rights-based approaches, but very much around the visibility of the older people's commissioner. For me, it's around being in communities, going to older people, and doing as much as we can to reach those older people who may be furthest away from that information and who are likely to be most at risk of those rights not being upheld.

So, you would envisage having direct contact with lots of older people, some who may be marginalised.

Absolutely. I think it's really important that older people see the commissioner in their communities, in the places where they live, in the places they're cared for—so, if we're thinking about care homes, if we're thinking about residential homes, if we're thinking about hospitals—and for me to be seen and for the team be seen and communicate with older people. And also to think about those—. I think one of the opportunities that the commissioner has is to look at that intersectionality of needs. So, whilst older people are older people, they're not a homogenous group, they will have individual needs. It's about thinking about older people who have additional protected characteristics—those who have a disability, those who identify as LGBT, those who are from black and minority ethnic communities, who, because of the intersectionality of needs, may be facing additional challenges and barriers in accessing services or having their voices heard.

Thank you very much. I'm going to hand over to Joel, but, before I do that, at the beginning of the meeting I should have asked if there were any declarations of interest. No. Okay. Joel, can I hand over to you?

Chair.

Yes.

What's the definition of an older person? Is it still anybody 50 plus? [Laughter.] I'm declaring.

I think Rhian should answer that.

My understanding from the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Act 2006 is that it's defined as 'over 60' in the legislation, as I've seen it. But I stand to be corrected if there's been any amendment since.

As a member of a local council—[Inaudible.]—as '50 plus'. But I will take '60 plus', and then remove my declaration of interest quite happily.

I think what it is as well is it's about thinking not only about those who may be 60 or over now, but thinking about those 50 plus, thinking about who will be the older people of our future generations, because, if we can promote and safeguard rights now, then for those individuals they will also be able to live and age well in the future.

Right. Thank you. Joel.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I wanted to ask a series of questions, if I can, so I can get a better idea about your background, if that's possible, and any potential conflicts of interest, and a little bit more then about your work in terms of championing those who face discrimination and that sort of thing. One of the concerns I've had with previous appointments with different commissioners is that they've seemed to come from very political backgrounds, and almost party political. There are former parliamentary candidates, election agents, and I just wanted to get a bit more about yourself. There's no political background with you, then. I know you were in the police force, so you can't be political, but since then.

No, no party political interests. No roles with political parties here in Wales or wider. My background, as you said, I'm from the south Wales Valleys in Wales. I was educated through the medium of Welsh and went to university at Aberystwyth and Cardiff, where I studied law. From there, I went into the police and served for seven years. And whilst within the police service, I had the opportunity to work in a multi-agency team that supported high-risk victims of domestic abuse. That really was the start of a turn in my career. I left the police after seven years' service and went to manage a domestic abuse service, just where I felt that I could make a real difference in terms of the services that were provided. I did that for a number of years.

During that time, I became chief executive of quite a large domestic abuse service that operated in mid Wales and south Wales. We were one of the first services that offered services to male victims of domestic abuse, and also worked holistically as families with children and young people as well. And it was as a result of that work that I became the national adviser for violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence, after we'd introduced the Act here in Wales.

I did that for a number of years in that advisory capacity, and then decided there was other work that I wanted to look at. As a result of that, I became an independent consultant working in the domestic abuse and sexual violence field. And that's where the work around domestic homicide reviews—working across England and Wales, but the work in particular in Wales, and in particular in the mid and west Wales region—that I've done has really highlighted some of the specific issues facing older people who experience violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence.

Proportionally, our rates of homicides of older people in mid and west Wales are higher than our population of older people. Some of the issues that have come out through those homicide reviews, as I mentioned earlier, are about how older people who experience domestic abuse don't always recognise that abuse within their relationships, but also how they can experience abuse from family members, which brings with it barriers to disclosure and help-seeking as a result of those relationships, but also, as part of those domestic homicide reviews, how older people's experiences weren't necessarily recognised, how our practitioners don't necessarily look for experiences of abuse. And there are some of the wider issues, then, in terms of access to services, rurality, transport to be able to access those services, and also that social isolation and loneliness, which was really significant in those reviews.

In undertaking those reviews, I've worked with a range of services for older people to examine the contact that they may have had with those individuals, but also to examine why they possibly didn't have contact. Then we've looked at issues such as where services are located, how services communicate. A number of these homicide reviews happened during COVID, so it's thinking about how information became digitalised, and older people didn't have those means to access that information, but also thinking about service models and how accessible they are for older people. That's the work that I've done for the last seven years.

But certainly, for the homicide reviews and the strategy development that I do, a huge part of that work, before I even get to writing the strategy or the report, is around meeting with older people, meeting with their families, meeting with their friends, hearing what's important to them, some of the challenges that they have and the things that they think public bodies should be prioritising in terms of their work. I think the strategy for mid and west Wales has really showed how we've highlighted the voice and experience of older people into that strategy and prioritised responses to older people.

Thanks ever so much for that really comprehensive response. I'm so glad to hear that you've highlighted domestic abuse amongst the elderly, because unfortunately that is a growing issue, and especially financial coercion and everything. And as you mentioned, unfortunately it's normally family members that are responsible.

One of the other questions I wanted to touch upon is around the roles that you do now in terms of any potential conflicts of interest. Do you see anything that you're currently doing that could provide a conflict of interest, and if so, how would you manage that?

I don't believe so. The work that I do now is all in an independent consultant capacity, so wherever I go in to do the role, or where I'm commissioned to do work, that's within an independent capacity. I think working in Wales, as I have done all of my career, you will have established professional relationships, you will know individuals. There will be occasions where I've collaborated with services and worked to influence individuals in terms of their decision making. But I think that is all part of the experience and the knowledge and the qualities that I bring to the role, rather than presenting with any conflict of interest.

I think that, where I have worked particularly with agencies that work with older people, thinking about work that I've done on the domestic homicide reviews where I've actually invited representatives of agencies to be on that panel to ensure that we're constantly thinking about promoting and safeguarding the rights of older people and that older people's experiences are represented on that panel, then they would already be members of stakeholder groups and advisory groups for the older people's commissioner. So, again, whilst those relationships may be there and we might be known to each other, I don't see any of those presenting a conflict of interest.

Thank you. Just a final set of questions. I know from my meetings with the current older person's commissioner that one of the statistics that came up is that she benefits from an almost 35 per cent—. What's the word I'm looking for? A 35 per cent—. People know her. Thirty-five per cent of people who have been polled have heard of the older person's commissioner. It's weird how certain words just don't come out when you're trying to think of them. That's quite a high percentage, actually, especially when you compare it to the future generations commissioner and the children's commissioner. You touched upon it during questions from the Chair about what you would do to try to maintain the profile, but 35 per cent is quite a high percentage. How would you look to match that and almost to increase that awareness? [Interruption.] A 35 per cent awareness rate. That's it, yes. Thank you.

I'm glad it's not just me. [Laughter.] I think the high percentage of awareness is a credit to the current commissioner and also her predecessors in terms of their visibility in the role. As I said in my first response, that visibility is really important to me. For me, I want to be seen in communities. I want people to know who I am, and I want people to know how they can contact me and the team, and that they will get a response in terms of advice, assistance and information, should they need to.

I think that we can do more. In speaking with friends and family members, going through this process, it's very unscientific polling, but a number of them weren't aware of the older people's commissioner. So, it's thinking about what we have done to date that has worked well, and what are the opportunities so that we can increase that awareness, going forward. I was at an event last week, where an older person was saying that we should be seen where older people are. And the example they gave was around car boot sales and places where communities gather. It's thinking about groups within communities or networks that we have in Wales that, yes, we are aware of and we would go to, but thinking outside of that box and thinking about where older people go.

And we will get that information from speaking with older people. Where do they think we should be? But, as I also said, it's thinking about possible new opportunities, what information goes to every household that we could include that information on—those local authority papers that go out to every household. It's thinking about could we look at some of the learning from other areas of work and think about could information go onto pharmacy slips, could information be put out on Royal Mail correspondence.

So, it's thinking about those opportunities that go to every household, as well as the work that has been done around social media and digital and press and media, but we know that that has its own challenges in terms of reaching every older person. And we know that some older people will be very familiar and will want to be engaged with Facebook, X, and all the different platforms that the current commissioner uses, but actually we don't want to leave anybody behind, so we want that information to be available in non-digital formats that can reach every home and community across Wales.

Perfect. Chair, I've got a final question, but I'm happy to move on because of the time.

If you ask the question briefly, and perhaps we can have a fairly brief answer to it.

Perfect. Thank you, Chair. I just wanted to get a better idea of specific examples, because under the previous question from the Chair, you mentioned the work you've done in terms of tackling discrimination and looking after marginalised groups, and I just wanted to get some specific examples, if that's okay, and how they could be interlinked with older people.

Yes, certainly. When I was the national adviser, there was a piece of national work that was done in collaboration with other agencies where I was present at consultations across Wales to meet with victim-survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence. We went out to different communities in Wales. We engaged through community groups, through agencies who had contact with individuals, and we went and met with individuals, and they included specific groups that we established with agencies around BME survivors. We also established groups around male survivors of domestic abuse, but also with survivors of sexual violence separately to survivors of domestic abuse. But also, in work that I've done more recently around developing strategies, I have gone to individuals who have had life-limiting conditions and disabilities, and with their invitation, I've gone to meet with them in their homes and places that they feel safe to be able to speak to me.

In terms of the work around survivors of domestic abuse and sexual violence, that resulted in a report that highlighted some of the key issues, barriers and challenges that survivors faced in accessing services. We identified, I think, between 12 and 15 themes—sorry, I don't know that number off the top of my head—that directly fed into the strategy and policy development of the Welsh Government around VAWDASV. Those themes are unfortunately still very prevalent in terms of survivors and their experiences. But also, a piece of work that I was commissioned to do by the Older People's Commissioner for Wales to look at how we could improve responses to domestic abuse for older people involved going to older people, meeting with them, and speaking to them about their experiences—not only of their abuse, but also of trying to access services to support them. And that brought up some really significant themes in terms of housing, in terms of access to services, and around practitioners' understanding of domestic abuse amongst older people.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Over to Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a phrynhawn da, Rhian. Mae gen i jest un cwestiwn yn yr adran yma, achos rydych chi wedi ateb y cwestiynau eraill. Mae yna lot o grwpiau yn gweithio efo pobl hŷn, felly sut ydych chi am gydweithio efo'r grwpiau yna—grwpiau yn ein cymunedau ni, er enghraifft? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rydych chi'n iawn, mae lot fawr o grwpiau'n gweithio'n genedlaethol, yn gweithio'n rhanbarthol, yn gweithio'n lleol, ac maen nhw'n gweithio gyda phobl hŷn yn eu cymunedau; maen nhw'n deall beth sydd angen ar bobl hŷn ac maen nhw'n gwybod beth yw rhai o'r pethau sy'n effeithio ar bobl hŷn o ddydd i ddydd.

I fi, dwi'n deall bod rhai strwythurau yn eu lle yn barod gyda’r comisiynydd pobl hŷn. Mae grwpiau gyda hi, grwpiau gweithgareddau, lle mae’r asiantau a’r grwpiau yna'n cwrdd yn aml i fwydo’n ôl i’r comisiynydd ac i gael adborth gan y comisiynydd ar ei gwaith, a byddwn i'n gweld y math yna o gyfarfodydd a grwpiau yn parhau. Byddwn i am iddyn nhw barhau; byddwn i'n awyddus iddyn nhw barhau, fel y gallaf i gwrdd â nhw, ac i'r grwpiau yna hefyd gael cyfle i fy nal i'n atebol fel comisiynydd ynglŷn â'r gwaith dwi'n ei wneud.

Ond hefyd dwi'n credu efallai na fydd rhai o’r grwpiau yna, y grwpiau mwyaf lleol, yn cael eu cynrychioli ar y grwpiau cenedlaethol yna, a bydd hi'n bwysig i fi fynd allan i gwrdd â’r grwpiau yna i wybod lle maen nhw, ac i fynd i gwrdd â nhw a'r bobl hŷn sy'n ymwneud â nhw ac yn gweithio efo nhw.

Er bod gan y comisiynydd rôl hynod o bwysig o ran codi ymwybyddiaeth o hawliau ac i ddiogelu hawliau pobl hŷn, all un person ddim gwneud hynny, ac maen nhw'n dibynnu ar gydweithio gyda rhanddeiliaid a grwpiau yn ein cymunedau i ddeall beth sy'n digwydd o ddydd i ddydd ac i allu deall beth sy'n bwysig a beth mae'n rhaid newid. Dwi'n credu bod Deddf y comisiynydd pobl hŷn yng Nghymru yn dweud pa mor hanfodol yw hi i leisiau pobl hŷn fod yn rhan o sut mae’r comisiynydd yn datblygu priorities a chynllun gwaith, a dwi'n credu bod pobl hŷn yn ogystal â’r grwpiau yna yn hanfodol i fi allu gwneud hynny.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Cadeirydd.

Diolch. We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas now.

[Inaudible.]—various public bodies and is it sufficient to effectively oversee their work?

I'm really sorry, Carolyn, I just missed the first part of that question.

I'd just like to ask what's your understanding of the workings of various public bodies and if it's sufficient just to oversee their work. We have so many different public bodies and different layers, with local authorities, with councils, public services boards, regional partnership boards, Transport for Wales—all these people delivering services. So, just really your understanding of them and also the issues that they might be facing as well.

In terms of our public bodies, and also being mindful of the public bodies that the older people's commissioner can issue powers—. And the work and the powers that are given as part of the Act, I think, being really clear about which public bodies they apply to and which they don't, as well—. But, I think, in terms of when we think about our public bodies and those that are relevant and that older people use on a day-to-day basis, when we think about our health services and we think about primary and our secondary health services, our GPs—we know that the commissioner has recently published a report in terms of access to GP services, but also on mental health services—. So, thinking about that whole range of health services that older people may need to access, but also social care services—. In preparing for these interviews as part of the appointment, I've spoken to representatives and really understanding some of the challenges that they face in terms of the demand for their services, the complexity of need that they're being presented with by older people and their families, and that older people are presenting to services at a later point, so we're not necessarily being able to do preventative work, but actually we're at the point of crisis where people are accessing services.

Resources are a huge consideration for services and our public bodies in Wales at the moment, but also thinking about our model of services that we have and, yes, the work that is ongoing in terms of 'A Healthier Wales' to better integrate our health and social care sectors. But, thinking about what services are older people needing closer to home and more emphasis on preventative services so that we can prevent people going into hospital, and then prevent people having to be in hospital so long, because we've got adequate services that are local to individuals in their communities—. But, also thinking about our workforce and the challenges that public bodies have across Wales at the moment in terms of recruitment and retention of that workforce, but also ensuring that that workforce are skilled, knowledgeable and experienced to be able to deal with the range of needs that are being presented to them—.

But when we think about some of the wider services, as well, so, within the care sector, when we're thinking about our private care sector and how we engage with them as regulated and inspected services so that they do fall within the remit of the older people's commissioner, how can we work with them to understand the challenges that they face? But also wider services, transport, and thinking about how individuals are being able to access public transport, the cuts in public transport and then people not being able to access services or get to places, and, therefore, relying on other people to take them places, and then that impacts on individuals' independence and feelings of independence—. Thinking about our environmental services and our resources that we have available to older people to access and that are really important to older people, that they have spaces and places within their communities that they can go—.

But also, not forgetting as well, whilst we talk about public bodies, the value of our third sector and voluntary sector in Wales, especially when thinking about their work with older people and that they face similar, if not additional, challenges in terms of workforce recruitment, workforce retention, but also real issues around sustainable funding to continue their sometimes vital services in community that older people access—. Sorry, it's been a bit of a whistle-stop tour around public bodies and challenges, but I'm happy to take any additional questions if you feel I haven't covered anything.

So, how would you hold them accountable, or what strategies would you employ to ensure that the recommendations are implemented? I'm just thinking, from a high-level point of view, it's really easy to ask for obvious needs to be implemented, but, sometimes, it's understanding the complexity and restraints that public bodies are facing as well. So, earlier, you mentioned informing older people about what's happening, what's available to them. I've been asking you questions: 'Do you understand about the various public bodies and what they deliver?'; but do older people understand? And earlier, you said 'via publications by local authorities sent out to each house, to ensure that they're informed that way', but I know that many local authorities no longer send publications out to every house because that's been taken forward as a cost saving. Very often, the only publication now is the council tax bill, so everything gets tied or bunged in with that, and Royal Mail are struggling at the moment to deliver letters. So, I'm just wondering how you would work with local authorities to ensure that any policies you think of that are important to older people can actually be policies that can be delivered, understanding everybody's needs and requirements. I hope I made that clear.

Yes. I think my approach in the work that I've done to date and the approach that I would wish to continue is firstly to work with and alongside public bodies, as you said, to understand what their intentions are and how they intend to deliver their policy intentions, or practice or service improvements, and to work with them to support them to do that, to support with expertise or capacity, where that was possible, because I think that you will achieve more if you're able to work together, as a starting point. But I think, by speaking with older people, then, to really understand what, in practice, is the reality for them in terms of the implementation of those policies and that being an evidence base, then, to go back to public bodies to say, 'Well, actually, this is what you intended to do and this was your aim, but in practice, this is the experience of older people who are trying to access services, or trying to get information'—.

I think the point you raised there in terms of information becoming digitalised—everything becomes digitalised—there has to be a provision of non-digital information not just for older people, but for other groups within our communities who don't have that access to digital information. And I think if we were to look at that as an example, then whilst I would look to work with public bodies to understand how they're making information or services available, the commissioner does have powers and those powers would enable me to review how public bodies are exercising their functions, intend to exercise their functions or are failing to exercise those functions. And whilst I would want to maintain that collaborative approach—work with, support alongside, review, scrutinise and challenge where appropriate—I wouldn't be afraid to use those powers if the rights of older people weren't being upheld or were at risk of not being upheld within our communities. And I think that's really important to have that balance—that those powers are there to be used judiciously and proportionately. And I think the commissioner needs to be able to use those when the supportive and constructive challenge approach hasn't worked and public bodies are failing older people.

And just on encouraging best practice and maintaining independence, drawing on your experience, how would you encourage best practice in the treatment of older people within various sectors such as healthcare, housing and social services?

Yes. I think, when we think about best practice and good practice, I was involved in initial conversations in mid and west Wales, where we identified housing for older people as a real issue and in particular for older people who had experienced abuse and refuge wasn't deemed an appropriate place for them. They didn't want to go into refuge; they wanted a space where they felt safe and that they could call their own. And there was a really innovative piece of work between the local registered social landlord, the violence against women sector and through the Dewis Choice project at Aberystwyth University, who co-produce services with older people. We brought those together and we developed a model where, within that registered social housing provision, there was a safe provision for older people who needed to leave their home around domestic abuse. Now, that, as an example of good practice, could be shared across Wales, could be used as an example, because those housing needs will be across Wales in terms of older people. But, we have really strong academic links here in Wales, so we could look at research involving older people, look at what works, use the experiences of older people, and for the commissioner to be a platform to share that information. It's not always about the commissioner having to do that work; it's about looking at the resources and expertise that we have in Wales, and then being a facilitator to share that learning and best practice, and support implementation.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much. Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae rôl y comisiynydd yn gofyn am arweinyddiaeth gref, ac annibyniaeth hefyd. Sut fyddech chi'n ymdopi â'r gwrthdaro buddiannau posibl, a phwysau hefyd, gan randdeiliaid allanol, wrth gynnal egwyddorion y swyddfa hefyd?

Wrth gwrs, dwi'n credu bod annibyniaeth y rôl yn hanfodol, ac mae hwnna o fewn y ddeddfwriaeth sy'n sefydlu'r rôl yma. Dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n rhywbeth y gallwn ni wastad fynd yn ôl ato drwy'r amser a dweud, 'Na, na, mae hyn yn rôl annibynnol.' Mae'r perception o'r annibyniaeth yna'n bwysig hefyd, achos mae'r rôl a'r tîm yn cael eu hariannu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, ac felly mae pobl yn mynd i weld hwnna a wedyn meddwl, 'Wel, sut mae'r comisiynydd yn gallu bod yn annibynnol os yw'r ariannu'n dod o'r Llywodraeth?' A dwi'n credu bod hynny o ran gallu dangos yr arweinyddiaeth yna, gallu dangos yr annibyniaeth yna, a mynd yn ôl i'r dystiolaeth sydd y tu ôl i unrhyw sialens neu y tu ôl i unrhyw proposal mae'r comisiynydd yn rhoi ymlaen. A gall y dystiolaeth yna ddod o waith academaidd neu o waith ymchwil, gall y dystiolaeth yna ddod o brofiadau pobl hŷn yng Nghymru, neu gall y dystiolaeth yna ddod o waith mae tîm y comisiynydd wedi'i wneud. A dwi'n credu dyna lle mae'n bwysig o ran bod yn gomisiynydd—dwi wastad yn defnyddio'r dystiolaeth sydd gyda ni. Dwi'n objective yn y gwaith dwi'n ei wneud. Dwi hefyd yn dangos egwyddorion Nolan o ran dangos integriti yn y gwaith dwi'n ei wneud, ac i wastad fod yn glir iawn, wrth adeiladu perthnasau gyda rhanddeiliaid, gyda'r Llywodraeth, gydag Aelodau Senedd, fod fy rôl i'n annibynnol, a phwrpas fy rôl i yw i ddiogelu a hyrwyddo hawliau a llais pobl hŷn yng Nghymru, a dyna beth fydd yn gyrru pob penderfyniad y byddaf i'n ei wneud yn y rôl.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch, Cadeirydd,

Diolch. Now Sioned Williams.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, a phrynhawn da. Dwi eisiau eich holi chi ynglŷn â pha mor ddigonol ac effeithiol yw'r cyfreithiau sy'n effeithio ar bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Fel comisiynydd, bydd yn rhaid i chi adolygu hyn a defnyddio strategaethau i ddylanwadu ar newidiadau deddfwriaethol fyddai o fudd i bobl hŷn yng Nghymru. Allwch chi roi enghraifft i fi o gyfraith bresennol rŷch chi'n teimlo sydd ddim yn ddigonol neu'n effeithiol o ran yr effaith mae'n ei chael ar bobl hŷn yng Nghymru, ac efallai rhoi enghraifft i fi o ba strategaethau fyddech chi'n eu defnyddio i newid hynny?

Dwi'n mynd i ateb hwn yn Saesneg, achos dwi'n siŵr bod lot o eiriau technegol ynddo fe, a dwi ddim eisiau rhoi lot o eiriau Saesneg.

When I think about the laws that we have in Wales at the moment, and I think about the laws that we also have wider in terms of protecting rights for older people, we do have really strong rights-based legislation. When we think about our European convention on human rights, when we think about our equality law, which are wider than Wales, I think those laws are in place, but they're not necessarily implemented effectively. We don't necessarily look to them to uphold rights and to make our case in terms of ageism, and age discrimination in particular. When I think about the laws that we have in Wales, and in particular some of the really progressive legislation we have around an age-friendly society, around some of the policies that we have around social isolation and loneliness, but also the wider legislation around social services and the well-being of future generations, I think, whilst those are in place, one of the elements that we could be stronger and more robust in terms of scrutinising is around how the equality impact assessments as they relate to older people are implemented and considered as part of the process, and, whether that's at a national level or whether that's at local and regional levels in terms of policies and legislation that's developed, I think that is something that we could scrutinise further and to look at far closer in terms of how probing, how inquisitive, how analytical we are being in terms of impacts on older people in their day-to-day lives. I'm trying to think of something to use as an example.

Well, for example, we could think about carers' rights. We know that the majority of carers in Wales are older people. We know that they have rights ostensibly, but many reports have shown us that their rights are not being upheld.

So, oes yna rywbeth y byddech chi yn ystyried ei wneud, er enghraifft, yn y pau yna?

Dwi'n credu, i fynd nôl at y prif negeseuon gwnes i sôn amdanynt yn gynharach: codi ymwybyddiaeth, codi dealltwriaeth ynglŷn â beth yw'r hawliau yna, sut allwn ni ddefnyddio grwpiau cymunedol neu bobl sy'n gweithio gyda phobl sy'n gofalu i godi'r ymwybyddiaeth yna. Achos unwaith rŷn ni'n codi'r ymwybyddiaeth a'r ddealltwriaeth, bydd cyfle gan bobl i roi sialens yn erbyn hwnna, i herio gwasanaethau bod eu hawliau nhw heb gael eu codi, a, dwi’n credu, defnyddio'r approach yna. Achos yr un peth mae'n rhaid i ni ei wneud ar draws y ffin, ond i allu codi ymwybyddiaeth, codi ymwybyddiaeth o hawliau, ac wedyn gweithio gydag unigolion a grwpiau i ddeall beth sydd ddim yn gweithio, a sut allwn ni wella hyn, ac wedyn mynd at yr awdurdodau cyhoeddus a dweud, 'Wel, dyma beth yw profiad unigolion a theuluoedd. Sut ŷn ni'n mynd i ddatrys hyn? Sut ŷn ni'n mynd i wella hyn?'

Ac wedyn, system o fonitro a gweld pa wahaniaeth sy'n cael ei wneud, achos mae hwnna'n rhywbeth sy'n bwysig i fi, a fydd yn bwysig i fi yn y rôl. Nid dim ond gweithredu pethau a sôn am godi ymwybyddiaeth a dealltwriaeth, ond pa wahaniaeth mae hyn yn ei wneud i fywydau dydd i ddydd pobl hŷn a'u teuluoedd hefyd.

Diolch yn fawr. A sôn yn fanna am fonitro, allech chi rannu eich dealltwriaeth chi a'ch profiad chi, efallai, o ddefnyddio data ac ymchwil i lywio eiriolaeth ar sail tystiolaeth ac argymhellion polisi sydd o fudd i bobl hŷn? Rŷn ni'n gwybod, wrth gwrs, fod gan y Llywodraeth uned data cydraddoldeb. Efallai y gallech chi sôn tipyn bach ynglŷn â pha fath o waith fyddech chi'n ei hoffi a sut fyddech chi'n hoffi cydweithio â'r gwaith sy'n digwydd yn fanna.

Ie, yn bendant. Rŷn ni'n gwybod, lan at ddwy flynedd yn ôl, doedd pobl hŷn ddim yn cael eu cyfro gan rai o'r arolygiadau data. Pan fyddwn ni'n sôn am yr arolwg trais a throseddau yng Nghymru a Lloegr, doedd pobl hŷn ddim yn cael eu cyfrif fel rhan o hynny. Pa negeseuon mae hynny'n anfon at bobl hŷn? Eu bod nhw ddim yn bwysig, eu bod nhw ddim yn cael eu gweld. So, dwi'n credu bod y newidiadau sydd wedi digwydd yn fanna yn rhywbeth y gallwn ni ddysgu ohonyn nhw nawr bod y data gyda ni. Rydyn ni'n gallu dechrau deall y data yna'n well—beth sy'n digwydd, beth mae pobl hŷn yn ei ddweud.

Ynglŷn â'r uned ddata sydd yn y Llywodraeth, ond hefyd yr holl ddata y bydd gwasanaethau'n eu casglu, ydyn nhw'n casglu'r data ar gyfer pobl hŷn a’r gwahanol protected characteristics sydd gan bobl hŷn, fel ein bod ni'n gallu dechrau deall beth mae'r intersectionality yn edrych fel i bobl hŷn? Sawl elfen wahanol ydy pobl hŷn yn eu profi, a sut mae'r rheini gyda'i gilydd yn effeithio ar eu gallu nhw i gael gwasanaeth neu i gael eu lleisiau wedi’u clywed?

Dwi'n credu hefyd fod cyfle gyda ni i ddeall yn well y data fydd yn ein galluogi ni i gynllunio ymlaen llaw. So, pan fyddwn ni'n meddwl am early intervention and prevention, a meddwl am beth y gallwn ni ei wneud yn gynharach a fydd yn rhoi mwy o gymorth i unigolyn, mwy o wybodaeth i unigolion, fel y gallan nhw wneud penderfyniadau drostyn nhw eu hunain yn gynharach, dwi'n credu y gallwn ni wella ein defnydd o ddata i helpu ein dealltwriaeth o hynny, achos mae'r data yna ar gael o'r bartneriaeth ranbarthol, neu o'r bwrdd gwasanaethau lleol, neu o wasanaethau iechyd a gofal. Dwi ddim yn credu ein bod ni'n defnyddio'r data yna i'r pwynt gorau y gallwn ni i'n helpu ni i gynllunio ymlaen llaw.

Diolch. Ac o ran blaenoriaethau, wedyn, mae blaenoriaethau'r comisiynwyr wedi amrywio gan adlewyrchu gwahanol anghenion neu bryderon y bobl hŷn sy'n dod i'r amlwg dros amser. Pa bethau fyddech chi'n eu blaenoriaethu neu'n adeiladu arnyn nhw yn eich rôl pan fyddwch chi yn cyrraedd rôl y comisiynydd?

A allwch chi roi cwpwl o enghreifftiau i ni o rai meysydd rŷch chi'n teimlo sydd wedi dod i'r amlwg yn ddiweddar? Yn amlwg, rŷch chi wedi siarad yn barod o ran camdriniaeth. O ran pethau eraill, efallai, a oes yna bethau o ran y Gymraeg, y Gymraeg mewn gofal iechyd a gofal cymdeithasol, neu o ran defnyddio arian parod, neu, fel gwnaethoch chi sôn, o ran trafnidiaeth? Does dim pwynt cael pàs bws os does yna ddim bws i fynd arno fe, a byddwch chi'n gwybod bod pobl wedi cael eu hynysu gan y toriadau diweddar. Felly, oes yna rai pethau rŷch chi'n teimlo rŷch chi'n moyn blaenoriaethu neu adeiladu arnyn nhw o ran y gwaith sydd wedi mynd yn barod?

I have developed some views around priorities, but I'm also really aware, in line with the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Act 2006, that those priorities have to be developed with older people. So, whilst I'm happy to share my views now, I would certainly like to use the first three months in role to engage and consult with older people to really test whether my thoughts are what's important to them. So, there is that. And I think you're right, I think that the priorities that the current commissioner also has are really relevant, and they've been relevant throughout her term and they remain relevant. I wouldn't want to just come into post and just change everything. I'd like to possibly build and further advance the priorities that the commissioner currently has in place.

And thinking about some of the things that have become clear to me in preparing for this role, certainly one of the things that has become more and more evident is the rights of older people in terms of those with dementia, and that's something that's been spoken about really prevalently in terms of older people and their families who are concerned about the safeguarding of their rights if they were to develop dementia. How would their rights be upheld in terms of if they are experiencing dementia, and whether they were being cared for in a home or in a care home? How do we uphold those fundamental United Nations' principles for older people and their rights?

Also, in terms of end of life, whether that's—. The work that's been done around 'do not resuscitate', or whether that's the work that—. You know, the news that's been in the media around an individual having the decision to end their own life, what does that mean for older people in terms of their rights going forward? But also around capacity, mental capacity. Again, how do we uphold those rights? So, whilst they may come under a very broad priority of safeguarding and upholding those rights, there are particular areas that I think we've got an opportunity to further our understanding and provide more information and guidance for older people in terms of what their rights are in those situations, and to provide them with information.

I think one of the other areas—and I've mentioned it already, so I won't go on too much about it—is around that intersectionality. So, where older people may be from a BME community, but where they also have a disability, or they identify as LGBT, what do we really understand around the multiple needs and barriers that they experience? And I think there's an opportunity for us to really look at that, moving forward.

But some of the things that you've mentioned as well around Welsh language. In the work that I've been able to do to date, I've been able to communicate with older people in Welsh if that's what they choose to do, but, actually, some of our fundamental services around social care, around assessments that are being done with older people—in particular, those with dementia—are we able to provide that active offer to individuals in terms of having the right to have that assessment done in the language of their choice, and what does that mean? What difference can that make for an individual in terms of their engagement with services?

I think digitalisation is also a significant prioritisation, one that I know where a lot of work has been done already, but more and more information is becoming digitalised and expecting people to be able to access the internet to be able to pay for parking, in some instances, or get further information. We need to really understand what other options can be provided, so that older people are not left behind, don't feel excluded from society because of how society has changed.

But also I think a priority as well around poverty. One in five of our older people in Wales are living in poverty. Older people experience those same experiences as the rest of our population: cost-of-living crisis, fuel poverty, making those decisions around whether they're going to eat or heat. But I think there's further work to be done around what could really help, how we can increase the benefits uptake amongst older people.

Housing, I've already mentioned—I think we do have a real issue around housing. So, I have a list of priorities that I would like to share with older people, to speak with them and to get their views, to help me develop those priorities. And I would be more than happy, and I'd welcome the opportunity, to come back before the committee, some time after my appointment, to share those priorities and a programme of work.

Diolch, Sioned, a sori am roi rhai atebion yn Saesneg a rhai yn Gymraeg.

Dim problem. Mae'r amser yn mynd yn brin, felly—

Yes, we've only got five minutes now. So, only five minutes left, so go on, Sioned.

Ie. Dau gwestiwn byr iawn, ac os oes modd ichi ateb yn weddol gryno. Yn gyntaf oll, rŷn ni'n sôn am lot o'r blaenoriaethau yn fanna. Wrth gwrs, rŷn ni'n gwybod bod cyllid ar gyfer swyddfa'r comisiynydd wedi cael toriad, felly sut ydych chi'n meddwl y byddwch chi'n rheoli'r gyllideb mewn modd strategol? Sut y byddwch chi'n blaenoriaethu i gyflawni'r cyfrifoldebau a'r blaenoriaethau yna? Ac wedyn un cwestiwn—. Ie, os gwnewch chi ateb hwnna yn weddol o fyr, ac wedyn mae gen i un cwestiwn bach arall ynglŷn â'ch profiad blaenorol.

In terms of resources, the latest financial statements and reports I've been able to look at are ending March 2023, but I'm aware that there's been a cut to the budget, moving forward. I think I probably need an opportunity to be in post and really understand how resources are currently being prioritised. I know that staffing costs are the highest percentage of the budget at the moment; there's just under £100,000 of the budget that goes directly towards programmes of work.

I think there are opportunities to further look at where there'd be opportunities to share resources with the other commissioners; I know that's something that's been done already. I know that the current commissioner's taken some really significant steps in terms of reducing office space, hybrid working, to really look at managing prudently the budget that she has, but I think I probably need an opportunity to go in there, look at how it's currently prioritised. But, significantly for me, I want to maximise the resources that are available for that direct contact with older people and activities with older people—again, something that I'm happy to come back and explore at a later date.

Gwych. A diolch am yr ateb cryno. Un peth bach arall, jest yn mynd nôl at eich profiad blaenorol chi, mi oeddech chi—a dyna sut dwi'n gwybod amdanoch chi—yn ymgynghorydd cenedlaethol o ran VAWDASV, ac fel y gwnaethoch chi sôn, y cyntaf yn y rôl yna. Ac mewn ffordd, o edrych ar eich curriculum vitae chi, dyna lle ŷch chi wedi, efallai, cydweithio'n fwyaf agos gyda pholisi Llywodraeth Cymru a cheisio, gobeithio, dylanwadu, yn amlwg, ar y polisi yna. Am ddwy flynedd yr oeddech chi yn y rôl yna cyn camu lawr. Oes modd ichi rannu unrhyw beth y gwnaethoch chi ei ddysgu o'ch profiad chi yn fanna, unrhyw beth a gyfrannodd, efallai, at y penderfyniad i gamu nôl o'r rôl yna, o ran meddwl nawr am y rôl fydd gyda chi o ran cydweithio a dylanwadu'n agos unwaith eto?

I think, when I look back and I reflect on that period as a national adviser, it was the first role of its kind, I was the first person appointed to it. There were no resources, apart from myself, allocated to the role. Of course there were policy teams who were working on different policies for Welsh Government, but I think it really showed how important working with and alongside services could be, because whilst it was only me, there was still progress made within that time. I think that in terms of what I learnt to take forward is just how challenging it can be to work cross-Government in terms of the agendas of each policy area and how you bring that together for a shared objective. But I think there's been significant progress made, and I think the strategy for an age-friendly society really shows the progress that has been made to bring that cross-Government, that older people really are central to how we think about policy areas.

I think that just the increased capacity, the fact that there are statutory powers attached to this role that mean that, hopefully, I can have more influence and that I can work to progress the agenda further in Wales, are things that are very different to that previous role.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Well, I think we've come to the end of our time, so thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Rhian, and we will now end the session.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Thank you.

Thank you.