Climate Change, Environment, and Infrastructure Committee

Just a brief word. I just wanted to say that I appreciate the opportunity to meet with you again, to provide you with an update on the work of the assessor, which is now in its fourth year. It's good to be able to sit here as one of three, rather than being here alone, and I am delighted by the appointments of the deputies.

I've also had further additions to the secretariat. Clare Stock and Tim Morris joined us in August of last year, and Emma Davies was appointed new head of secretariat in December of last year too. But I also want to express my gratitude to David Beckett and Elizabeth Clark for their contribution and their commitment to the secretariat over the past two years. Although we're a small team, we have made significant progress in promoting work on different initiatives, and I am sure that you will have read the annual report, which sets out what's happened between 1 March 2023 and 28 February 2024.

Throughout that time, my team and I have been committed in our efforts to evaluate the impact of legislation related to environmental protection in Wales and to seeking further improvements to strengthen its efficiency.

We continue to develop a number of reports in relation to the submissions received. There are five reports in progress at the moment: forestry, hedgerow, protected sites, civil sanctions and water quality. The preparation of these reports has extended beyond the initial timeline because of issues emerging, including further submissions for consideration on these issues, and also the additional workload that's come to us during the past year.

I'm disappointed that I haven't been able to publish reports during this recent period. Since 1 March last year, we've received an additional 10 submissions, which is double the number from the previous year, and which has required evaluation within the scope of our current reporting processes. These submissions include detailed issues related to tree preservation, protected sites, ammonia emissions, water quality and local development planning, bringing the current total to 37. So, as you can see, there's a broad range of issues that have been brought before us.

One of those was outside the scope of IPEAW and, as a result, it wasn't followed up further. This related to opencast mining. Despite this, and although things were outside the scope of IPEAW, we continue to look at matters quarterly in order to see if there have been any changes or if there is anything that now falls within scope. So, although things may be originally outside our scope when they come to us, we try to ensure that we do look at them and that we continually review them, too.

I'd also like to thank the committee for their work in supporting the development of the environmental governance arrangements and the report published last year in terms of the practicality of the measures that we put in place. I'm happy to take any questions on some of the areas that we discussed last year in terms of monitoring and so on, and the improvement that needed to be made. So, as we move forward, it's crucial that we maintain our commitment to environmental protection in Wales through Welsh legislation. It's crucial that this legislation is implemented effectively to bring out positive environmental outcomes. This task is multifaceted, and I am committed to working with numerous stakeholders to develop creative and effective solutions for environmental protection. Hopefully we'll have an opportunity to discuss some of the things that we're working on during the session. Thank you.

Grêt. Diolch am hwnna. Mae'n rhoi bach o gyd-destun i ni, a dwi'n gwybod bod yna nifer o'r pwyntiau rŷch chi wedi'u gwneud yn faterion dwi'n siŵr y byddwn ni eisiau pigo lan arnyn nhw yng nghwrs y cyfarfod. Felly, fe wnawn ni fwrw iddi ac fe wnaf i wahodd Janet Finch-Saunders i gychwyn y cwestiynu. Diolch.

Thank you. What progress have you made since last year, when it was apparent much progress was needed? How do you believe the interim measures are working, following three years of operation? What impact has your work had, and what do you think could still be improved?

There are a number of questions there. It's difficult to believe that we are now in year 4 since this was created, and a great deal has happened during that time. It has been quite a difficult time in some ways, because there have been a lot of things coming in, a lot of submissions on a broad range of issues, and it has been difficult, therefore, to forward plan, and to think ahead in terms of what we should be doing, and actually timetabling that and putting resources in place for it.

But I think one of the things that I hope has been most successful is those relationships that we have with stakeholders, and the fact that we have regular discussions with stakeholders within Wales, but also with the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland outside of Wales, and we speak to them very regularly in order to ensure that the work we do here is taken into consideration, and that we can look at how we can collaborate in some of the areas in which we work.

There's a great deal more work that I'd like to do and it would be good to have time to look at things that are outwith some of the submissions that come in. It has been of great assistance to have secretariat staff members. We have two specific members of staff in the secretariat now, as I mentioned, and we also have two new deputies that have started within the past two months. That’s going to make a major difference. The fact of the matter is that we needed Anna and Lynda 16 months ago, and what's been very helpful is the foresight by the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister for Climate Change before that—instead of appointing one, I was appointing two, and I'm very grateful for that because that additional capacity was required. Whether that's enough as we look to the future is perhaps something that you'll want to discuss further.

But, on the monitoring side, do you want to come in on that, Anna?

Sori, jest cyn inni ddod at fonitro, os caf i, fel rŷch chi'n dweud, gan ein bod ni yn y bedwaredd flwyddyn, a ydych chi'n teimlo eich bod chi wedi cyrraedd lle byddech chi wedi gobeithio cyrraedd, gan gydnabod y cyfyngiadau o ran adnoddau, ac yn y blaen? A ydych chi'n hapus eich bod chi wedi gwneud cymaint ag y gallech chi yn y cyfnod yna, neu a ydych chi'n teimlo y gallech chi fod wedi bod yn cyflawni bach yn fwy hyd yn oed o fewn y cyfyngiadau?

O fewn y cyfyngiadau sydd gyda ni, rwy'n credu ein bod ni wedi llwyddo i wneud llawer mwy nag, efallai, y byddai'n ddisgwyliedig ohonom ni. Wedi dweud hynny, dwi'n siomedig achos bydden i wedi licio gallu gwneud lot mwy, ond hyn a hyn o amser sydd. Ac rŷm ni wedi cael y drafodaeth hon o'r blaen a dwi ddim yn moyn ailadrodd, ond, pan ddechreuodd y rôl hyn, roeddwn i'n meddwl y byddwn i'n cael chwe chais bob blwyddyn. Yr amser oedd wedi cael ei roi i fi fod ynghlwm â'r rôl oedd lan i 36 diwrnod mewn blwyddyn. Mae wedi bod yn fwy fel dau ddiwrnod yr wythnos, o leiaf, os nad mwy. Felly, mae'r cyfyngiadau yna o ran amser wedi golygu nad ydyn ni wedi gallu gwneud mwy.

So, dwi'n siomedig nad ydyn ni wedi gallu gwneud mwy na beth rŷm ni wedi ei wneud, ond, o ystyried y cyfyngiadau, dwi'n credu ein bod ni wedi gwneud yn dda iawn. Ond rwy'n credu ei bod wedi bod yn amlwg iawn—dau fis rŷch chi wedi bod yn y rôl—ond mae wedi bod yn amlwg iawn yn barod faint rŷm ni'n gallu wneud. Dwi nawr yn gallu hala amser ar ddrafftio adroddiadau a bennu pethau. Doedd hynny ddim yn bosibl ei wneud wrth ddelio gyda chyflwyniadau newydd a delio gyda rhanddeiliaid a'r holl bethau eraill sydd ynghlwm â'r rôl.

Dyna ni. Diolch. Anna.

To what extent—

Sorry, Janet, I think Anna wants to come in as well.

Does dim angen gwasgu'r botwm.

Diolch. Fe wnaf i siarad yn Saesneg achos dwi'n fwy hyderus yn siarad am bethau technegol yn Saesneg.

So, I just wanted to address the element that is about monitoring the impact of the work of the IEPAW, and I know that that's something that this committee has raised in previous sessions. It has been, as Nerys said, with limited resources over the last year or so, quite difficult to prioritise that kind of monitoring of impact. Nerys has been having conversations with some of our partner organisations, the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland.

Sorry to interrupt. So, just for clarity, that's challenging because you're busy doing your job and firefighting, and you don't have the capacity to reflect on the impact that's having.

Exactly.

Yes, okay, just for clarity.

So, what we have tried to do in the last couple of months since Lynda and I have been on board, what we've done is we've set up ourselves a formal monitoring process. So, there are three levels to monitoring the impact, as I see it. One is the Welsh Government should be monitoring what we're doing and seeing whether we're providing value for money, and I believe that's something that they are working on, and we're quite happy to work with them on that.

The thing that the committee has asked us about—. There were two levels to it that you asked us about last year. One was monitoring the impact of the recommendations that we make in terms of how they are being implemented by the bodies to whom we address those recommendations. And the second is what's the real-world environmental impact of those recommendations. Although we only still have one report that's out in the world at the moment, we have a series of reports that will be coming over the coming months. So, what we've done is set up a framework for monitoring those impacts, looking at each of the recommendations that we make: what is the baseline scenario at the moment, what does success look like in terms of those recommendations being taken on board, and how will we measure that success?

That, I will say, is much easier in terms of the impact that we have in terms of the implementation by those bodies to whom we address the recommendations. That's much easier for us to measure than the environmental impacts that follow, partly because we're not a scientific organisation and we will be relying on either information that is provided to us or information that's in the public realm, but also because some of those environmental impacts, I suspect, are going to be a little bit longer term. So, we will do our best to monitor that and to report on that. We plan to publish that with our annual report every year and make that as transparent as possible, and that will apply to every one of the recommendations that we make in all of our reports.

Diolch yn fawr. Janet, did you want to come back in?

Yes. So, I mean you have had extra resources to help impact monitoring, going forward. How effective do you believe this is, but also to what extent has the Welsh Government been monitoring the work you're doing, if you like?

Yes, the first tier of monitoring. Yes.

So, rŷn ni mewn trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth Cymru amboutu siẁd maen nhw'n bwriadu gwneud y monitro yna, ac, yn amlwg, mae e'n rhywbeth sydd yn y terms of reference, ontefe, ein bod ni angen—

Sorry to interrupt. Does that mean no monitoring? The question was: to what extent has the Government been monitoring? Are you saying they haven't, as yet?

So, dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n gwestiwn i Lywodraeth Cymru, rili, onid yw e, a ddim i ni, achos, yn amlwg, nhw sydd gyda'r dasg o—

Well, no. You would know whether you've been monitored or not as yet, or have you not?

So, we haven't had a report from them to say, 'We've monitored your work and this is what we think the position is', if that's what you're asking, no. But we have had discussions with them about monitoring.

Thank you.

The other thing that I would add is, in addition to what we've set up to monitor how our impact is having an impact in the world, the other thing that we're planning to do is to have a better monitoring, evaluation and learning of our own internal how we're spending our time—because, obviously, all three of us have limited time—and making sure that we're spending that time in the most effective way for us. So, I'm hoping that that work—. Although we're not planning on publishing that publicly, because a lot of it will be confidential, I'm hoping that that will help Welsh Government to evaluate whether we're doing the right things. We're determined to try and make the best use of our time, and I'm hoping that that will help to show that.

And we're determined that you make the best use of your time as well.[Laughter.]

A couple of points. Chair, a couple of points here.

Janet, yes.

Yes, a couple of points here. So, I am concerned when you say, 'We won't be making the reports public.' It's taxpayers' money; the public have a right to know, certainly us as a scrutiny committee have a right, so I would hope that those reports are not kept confidential. And also, I'm a great believer in transparency and accountability. You've got two new deputies now, there's going to be more expectation put on you, because you've had more resources put in, so you can understand alarm bells for me, really, when, you say, 'We won't be publishing this.' And the other question was: how are you collecting and using data, then, in your own monitoring of yourselves?

Okay.

There are a few things there, which I'm sure you can—

Yes, I'll try and explain. So, I'm not saying that we won't be transparent about what we're using our time on; that's not the intention. The level of detail that we are hoping to collect will be quite granular. It's probably too much. We will still issue an annual report, which will say what we have been working on, and we'll explain that. There's not an intention here to not be transparent about that. But the way that the monitoring, evaluation and learning framework that we're looking at works is that we set for ourselves—and we're still working on this, so it's not set in concrete yet, but—we will set for ourselves a series of goals of what we would like to achieve, what are the metrics by which we will measure, internally, whether we are achieving that. And then we will, as a group, monitor what we're doing against those goals, and ask ourselves questions and learn from anything that—. You know, 'Well, maybe, actually, we spent too much time on stakeholder events' or 'Maybe we should have done more public-facing work' or, you know, that's the sort of granular level that I'm talking about. So, it may not be appropriate to put that, to publish that, on the website, because it's probably going to be very internal cuisine, if you like.

Yes, okay, but you hear the message about being as open and transparent as you can.

Absolutely. It's not an intention—

And maybe some of that might be reflected in your annual report in terms of the share of your time spent. Please, Lynda—yes.

Just to help there, briefly, I think part of the problem I've found, when you come on, you really find it—. You don't know how long something is going to take you to do when you've just started, and, certainly for Anna and I, we are very much in a learning phase. But, to some extent, so is Nerys, because Nerys has not had to work with us two before either. So, we are trying to set goals for ourselves: when are we going to finish those recommendations, when are we going to write that report, when are we going to do this? And it's very, very hard to put a concrete figure on that at the moment, because we're learning as we go on. I would say, within the next couple of months, we will be much clearer about that and there will be much less need for that sort of, 'Well, we got that a bit wrong, didn't we? We overestimated what we could do there. We couldn't do this; we couldn't do that.' It's that sort of thing that I think you wouldn't be putting out in a public report.

Ocê. Iawn. Diolch yn fawr. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Joyce, felly.

Good morning. I just would like to ask, you've got the additional staff that you've got, and they're very welcome to you, I'm sure, and they'd be welcome to us too, but the question would be: would you have liked to have seen any other resource changes, apart from the ones you've got, to help you do your job?

Dwi'n credu ei fod e'n bwysig i ni fod yn glir amboutu extra staff. So, roedd gyda ni ddau aelod o staff a chawson ni ddau aelod o staff newydd yn lle'r ddau aelod o staff yna. So, mewn ffordd, hanner aelod o staff ychwanegol rŷn ni wedi'i gael yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. Dwi'n credu ei fod e'n bwysig i ni fod yn glir amboutu hwnna. Yn amlwg, er hynny, rŷn ni wedi cael dau ddirprwy ychwanegol, ac mae hwnna'n dipyn o extra capacity sydd gyda ni, ond hefyd mae eisiau pwysleisio taw dau ddiwrnod yr wythnos mae'r dirprwyon yna'n ei wneud. Felly, mae dau ddiwrnod yr wythnos yr un gyda nhw, ac dyw fy niwrnodau i ddim wedi cael eu hymestyn, so bydd fy rhai i, gobeithio, yn mynd lawr o beth maen nhw wedi bod, efallai, dros y 12 mis diwethaf, yn ôl y contract ta beth. So, dwi jest eisiau bod yn glir amboutu hwnna. Ac fel roeddwn i'n dweud hefyd, achos roedd angen yr adnoddau ychwanegol o gael y dirprwyon yn eu lle 12 mis yn ôl, mae gyda ni bach o ddala lan i wneud, achos dŷn ni ddim wedi bod â'r capasiti i droi pethau drosodd yn y ffordd fel byddem ni wedi licio ei wneud yn y 12 mis diwethaf, so mae eisiau i ni gadw hwnna mewn golwg.

O ran adnoddau ychwanegol, bydden ni'n hoffi cael mwy o adnoddau o fewn y secretariat fel bod gyda ni bobl gyson o fewn y secretariat sy'n gweithio ar hwnna, ac un o'r pethau, efallai, byddai o fudd mawr yw cael rhywun sydd gyda chymwysterau cyfreithiol o fewn y secretariat fel bod gyda ni'r adnoddau yna'n fewnol, achos, yn y 12 mis diwethaf, ni wedi gorfod mynd tu allan, ac mae hwnna'n golygu deilio â rheolau caffael, amser, dŷch chi'n gorfod dysgu'r person yna o'r dechrau fel mae'n systemau ni'n gweithio ac yn y blaen. Felly, mae fe'n fantais fawr i fod â'r person yna, dwi'n meddwl, neu'r bobl yna, o fewn y tîm.

Beth rŷn ni wedi llwyddo ei gael, wrth gwrs, yw pobl PhD, sydd wedi bod yn helpu. Maen nhw wedi bod yn andros o ddefnyddiol i ni fel tîm, ond yn amlwg maen nhw gyda ni am gyfnod, tri mis, efallai chwech mis—fel mae Rhys gyda ni ar hyn o bryd am chwech mis—yn rhan amser. Eto, mae'n rhywbeth dros dro; maen nhw'n dysgu ein systemau ni, dysgu sut dŷn ni'n gweithio, ac wedyn maen nhw'n gadael. Felly, dwi'n credu byddai yna fantais fawr o gael rhywun mwy penodol. Felly, os ydych chi'n gofyn a yw'n ddigonol, mae'n anodd iawn i fod yn bendant iawn amboutu hynna ar hyn o bryd, achos mae eisiau i ni weld yn gyntaf faint rŷn ni'n gallu ymdopi ag ef nawr, gyda Lynda ac Anna gyda ni, faint o wahaniaeth mae hwnna'n ei wneud. Ond dwi'n credu efallai mewn amboutu chwech mis byddaf i'n gallu bod bach yn fwy pendant amboutu hynna wedyn, pan fydden ni'n gwybod beth rŷn ni'n gallu ei gyflawni gyda'r tîm sydd gyda ni nawr a beth sydd eisiau arnom ni yn nes ymlaen.

Dwi hefyd yn ofidus, efallai, wrth i ni fynd ymlaen i'r corff mwy parhaol, efallai bydd ein gwaith ni'n cynyddu, achos rŷn ni wedi gweld cynnydd yn nifer y ceisiadau sy'n dod mewn, a dwi'n credu, wrth i'r rôl gael ei amlygu, wrth i bobl ddod i wybod mwy am y rôl a beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud, dŷn ni wedi gweld cynnydd yn y gwaith hefyd. So, mae eisiau i ni fod yn wyliadwrus: os yw mwy o waith yn dod i mewn, mae hwnna'n golygu mwy o waith i ddelio gyda'r ceisiadau yna hefyd. Felly, mae'n anodd iawn i ddweud yn bendant beth yw'r sefyllfa, ond byddwn i'n tybio bod yn dal i fod angen mwy o adnoddau arnom ni. Os ydych chi'n ei gymharu fe gydag adnoddau cyrff tebyg—er, dwi'n gwybod, dydyn nhw ddim yn debyg achos mae eu pwerau nhw'n wahanol—mae'r cyllid sydd gyda ni'n dra gwahanol i'r rheini.

Okay.

So, in terms of that you've mentioned legal particularly, and we've done many inquiries where we're being told that that's a very scarce resource anyway in Wales, and you're up against it in trying to manage even to get anyone legal to work with you, how much of your time is spent searching for people, or do you have arrangements in place where, if you need to call on that help, you know it's there?

Felly, mae rheolau caffael a chwilio am yr arbenigedd yna wedi bod yn rhywbeth sydd wedi mynd â thipyn o amser yr ysgrifenyddiaeth yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf ac, fel rŷch chi’n ei ddweud, mae'r adnoddau yna’n anodd eu cael, heb sôn am benodi rhywun i'w wneud e. Felly, mae hynny wedi bod yn sialens o ran cael yr help ychwanegol yna. Rŷn ni wedi bod yn ffodus i gael peth help gyda'r adroddiadau ar sancsiynau sifil a'r un ar protected sites hefyd—rŷn ni wedi cael peth adnodd ychwanegol o du allan ar gyfer y rheini. Ond, eto, mae fe’n rhywun yn dod i mewn i wneud darn o waith a gadael eto, pan fyddai fe llawer yn haws i gael rhywun sydd gyda ni drwy’r amser yn gallu gweithio ar y prosiectau yna yn fwy hir dymor. Felly, byddai fe’n gwneud gwahaniaeth mawr i gael y cysondeb yna o fewn y tîm.

Thank you.

Iawn. Dyw’r approach 'beg, steal and borrow' yna ddim yn grêt, ydy e, i wneud gwaith mor allweddol pan fo'n dod i amddiffyn yr amgylchedd yng Nghymru, felly dwi'n credu bod hynny'n tanlinellu'r angen i symud i fodel mwy parhaol.

Jest cyn i ni symud ymlaen a dod at Janet eto, gaf i jest ofyn dau gwestiwn byr? Does dim eisiau atebion helaeth. Rŷch chi’n dweud bod angen mwy o gefnogaeth ysgrifenyddiaeth. Hynny yw, mae hynny'n bwysicach i chi nag, efallai, ychwanegu at oriau’r asesydd a chael asesydd parhaol llawn amser yn hytrach na—. Dim 'parhaol', sori, asesydd llawn amser. Ydych chi’n teimlo bod cefnogaeth ysgrifenyddol yn bwysicach, neu ysgrifenyddiaeth, yn bwysicach?

Dwi'n credu bod y model sydd gyda ni nawr, o'r tair ohonom ni, yn un da iawn, achos mae gennym ni i gyd sgiliau a phrofiad gwahanol iawn. Rŷn ni i gyd yn dod â gwahanol bethau i'r bwrdd, os liciwch chi, a dwi'n credu ei fod e’n fantais fawr i gael y cyfle i drafod, ac rŷn ni wedi cael rhai trafodaethau rili diddorol yn barod amboutu rhai o'r adroddiadau rŷn ni'n gweithio arnyn nhw. Roedd hynny'n rhywbeth oedd ar goll pan oedd o dim ond fi yn y rôl. Felly, yn sicr, pan oedd un person, byddai fe wedi bod yn well petai’r person yna’n llawn amser, o ran yr amser byddai gyda nhw, ond dwi yn credu bod y model o gael y tair ohonom ni yn un gwell, ta beth, achos mae e’n golygu bod y profiad yna gyda chi, profiadau gwahanol, sgiliau gwahanol, a'r amser yna wedyn i siario mas. So, dwi'n credu byddai fe—

Ie, dwi'n deall; mae hynny'n gwneud synnwyr, a dweud y gwir, eich bod chi'n ei ddweud e fel yna. Ond mae'n arwain yn neis at fy nghwestiwn nesaf i, sef, dwi'n tybio wedyn, te, fod y dirprwyon newydd yn arwain ar wahanol agweddau.

Ydyn.

Ie. Ydy hynny'n rhywbeth rŷch chi’n gallu ei rannu, jest yn fyr?

Do you want to talk about which ones you're leading on?

Yes. I’ve picked up the protected sites report. We already have quite a lot of draft material there. The evidence that has been prepared for that has been analysed to some extent and put together in a report, which I can now take forward and lead us into getting some recommendations on that one.

I've also recently taken up the lead on what started off as being a submission on polychlorinated biphenyls and contaminated land. Now, we're not at the stage of saying there will be a report on that, and I certainly don't think we're going out for a big call for evidence or anything, but I can see that there are some serious potential issues there with these sorts of sites that goes far beyond looking at PCBs. So, I am taking up that one, and that is going to be quite a major piece of work, I think.

Okay, thank you. Anna.

So, I've taken on one file that we have, which is about special protected areas, so international bird sites. That's unlikely to result in a report, because it's a submission that has also been made to the OEP in England and the ESS in Scotland, and there are significantly more issues in terms of their regions. We are discussing with them, in some detail, the investigation, and they have much bigger investigatory powers than we do, so I'm working with OEP and ESS on that file. I can see a hand.

Yes, sorry, Delyth.

Jest yn fyr, os yw'n bosib.

Forgive me. Yes, very briefly. If you could, please, keep us up to date on the work that you're doing on PCBs and beyond that, I'd be really interested to see that. Thank you so much.

I thought you might be interested in that.

And the second thing that I'm working on is water quality. So, that's a fairly chunky file. We have issued a call for evidence, which we're hoping will close at the beginning of August, and that will be an ongoing, fairly large piece of work over the next few months. Delyth's hand is up again.

Delyth, wyt ti eisiau dod i mewn eto?

Forgive me. Diolch yn fawr iawn. It was actually on that call for evidence specifically. I understand that it excludes agricultural sources of pollution. I'm sure that you'll be very aware that lots of environmental groups have raised concerns about that. They've pointed out that agricultural pollution is the most significant source of freshwater pollution. As I understand it, the control of agricultural pollution regulations review won't include pollutants like phosphorus and sediment. Would you commit to extending the scope and time frame of the review to ensure that that is robust and that it takes into account those concerns?

Our work does include all of that stuff, it's just not in the current call for evidence. There's a difference between what we're looking at overall and what's in the current call for evidence. It's a vast area of law, water law, and I am trying to take it almost in sections. At the moment, it didn't make sense to us to include agricultural sources of pollution, because there is an independent chair about to be, I hope, appointed to look specifically at the nitrate part of it in those regulations. So, we have parked agricultural pollution in terms of the call for evidence. It doesn't mean we're not working on it. It doesn't mean it won't form any part of the final report. I am very conscious that it's one of the key contributors to water pollution in Wales. So, thank you for the opportunity to clarify that. It's absolutely part of the work. It's just that we may well need to take this in sections because it's such a huge area.

Mae hynny'n gwneud synnwyr. Diolch am hynny. Dwi'n ymddiheuro, dwi wedi dwyn y cyfle i ofyn cwpwl o gwestiynau ecstra yn y fanna. Efallai bod amser yn ein herbyn ni ychydig bach. Cawn ni weld sut mae'n mynd. Nôl at Janet.

Thank you. You'll have to excuse me going back to this reporting business. There's a reticence, I feel, on behalf of all three of you, about, 'Well, we're doing this work, but we won't be able to do the report.' I see little point in that kind of work that you're doing if you can't justify and have evidence to produce the report. What are these barriers to producing reports? We do it. I get briefings and things, and this is me myself. I'm quite happy to write a report on it. What are these barriers to writing and then publishing reports?

I don't think there's a reticence to publish reports. I think there are different approaches to be taken on different matters, though. Some will necessitate a report. Some of them, though, need some work happening with stakeholders as well, to move things forward in relation to a particular area. That doesn't mean that we perhaps don't send correspondence to people, that we don't publicly state what the position from our point of view is on those, but we feel that sometimes there are some things where we need to move on in a slightly different way. It might be that we document, at some point, then, in our annual report, or in a very brief report, 'This is what we've done on this, and this is the outcome of it.' But when we're talking about reports, we're very much talking about quite substantial pieces of work, I suppose. So, in our minds, we're distinguishing between them like that, and perhaps that's an issue for us to be more clear about.

I'll just ask this one question, then. Yesterday, most of the questions were on water quality. We're all, as Members, very concerned about our water quality in Wales. There's a lot of work going on monitoring that. Is there a risk that you could be duplicating some of the work that's already ongoing on water quality?

That's precisely the risk that we're trying to avoid by parking the agriculture part for the moment, or not including that in our current call for evidence, because we want to make sure that we're not duplicating work that's being done elsewhere. I am very keen to make sure that we gather information from all of the stakeholders that are working in water. We are in active conversation with many of those groups. Part of the point of having a call for evidence is to try and receive as much of that information as we can, because honestly we don't have the time or the resources to be duplicating other people's work. It will make much more sense for us to make sure that we are using that. The slight difference, I suspect, will be that we are coming at it from a legal point of view. So, where a lot of people will be looking at the implications or the environmental outcomes, we will be very much looking in detail at how is the law working, could it be working better, are there laws that we're currently not using that we should be or do we need an entirely new law for this specific problem.

But you have no powers on any work that you do.

What we have the power to do is provide recommendations to the Welsh Ministers. When I talk about a report, what I mean is making those recommendations to the Welsh Ministers, which says, 'Here are all the problems and here are the things that you should do.'

And we, as a scrutiny committee, will have access to those.

They'll be publicly available. Yes.

That eases me somewhat.

Diolch, Janet. Gaf i ofyn, te, pa mor siomedig ydych chi fod cyn lleied o adroddiadau wedi cael eu cyhoeddi? Achos fe gawson ni addewidion mewn sesiynau blaenorol y byddai rhagor yn dod, ond dŷn ni prin yn eu gweld nhw.

Fel y dywedais i ar y dechrau, dyna beth dwi'n fwyaf siomedig amdano yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, ond y broblem sydd gyda ni o ran adnoddau—. Mae delio â cheisiadau yn dod i mewn yn bwysig achos mae gennym ni rwymedigaethau o ran delio â'r ceisiadau yna hefyd. Ond, dwi'n credu, yn ystod y ddeufis diwethaf, ein bod ni wedi symud ymlaen tipyn ar yr adroddiadau sydd gyda ni, ac rydyn ni wedi gwneud tipyn o waith. Hefyd, dwi'n gobeithio bydd yr adroddiadau yn rhai gwell achos ein bod ni'n gallu cydweithio fel tair—

The translation is not working for me.

The translation isn't working for Joyce. Can we just check it? We've lost translation, have we? Okay. We'll pause a moment, then.

Sorry. It's fine now.

Dyna ni. Sori. Cariwch ymlaen. Diolch yn fawr. Dwi yn ymwybodol bod amser yn mynd, ond yn benodol, roedden ni eisiau gofyn am yr adroddiad coedwigaeth. A hefyd roedd yna bedwar adroddiad arall roeddech chi'n dweud eich bod chi'n gweithio arnyn nhw y buasem ni'n hoffi gwybod amdanyn nhw.

Ar goedwigaeth a gwrychoedd, mae'r adroddiadau yna nawr bellach wedi eu drafftio ac maen nhw bron yn barod. Rydyn ni wedi cytuno rhyngom ni ar yr argymhellion, a dwi'n gwybod bod Lynda eisiau dweud rhywbeth am hwnna.

I was just going to say that, at our last meeting, we went through the forestry report in detail, looking at the way the recommendations have been actually formed, the actual wording of them. So, not looking at what they were going to be but how we were presenting them. So, that's virtually ready.

I've taken away the hedgerow report, which is also ready. We've looked at the recommendations for that. And, having said we can't really commit ourselves because, at this stage, you never know how long things are going to take, I am optimistic that, by the time that we next meet, I will be able to present what I hope will be acceptable as a near final version of the hedgerows report, which means that that should be out very shortly.

It's likely, then, therefore, that it will go to the Cabinet Secretary at some point over the summer. The Cabinet Secretary, obviously, gets it for six weeks before we publish the report, so that the response from the Cabinet Secretary and our report get published at the same time. So, that gives you an indication of the time frame on those two.

Ar sancsiynau sifil, mae'r gwaith yna—. Rydyn ni wedi rhoi dŵr o flaen hwnna fel ein bod ni'n gallu cael hwnna allan. Felly, unwaith bydd cais am dystiolaeth dŵr yn cau, bydd un yn agor gyda ni ar sancsiynau sifil. Bydd hwnna'n darn o waith y bydda i'n gweithio arno yn ystod gweddill eleni. Ac wedyn, fel mae Lynda wedi sôn eisoes am y protected sites, mae'r adroddiad yna hefyd wedi'i ddrafftio ond mae angen i ni hala peth amser gyda'n gilydd ar yr argymhellion hynny. Felly, rydyn ni'n edrych mwy, o ran hwnna, tuag at ddiwedd y flwyddyn.

Iawn. Mae angen i ni symud ymlaen, dwi'n ofni. Awn ni nôl yn syth at Carolyn, os yw hynny'n iawn.

What discussions have you had with the Welsh Government regarding permanent arrangements?

We have regular discussions with them about the permanent arrangements.

Rydyn ni, yn amlwg, eisiau gweld y corff yn ei le cyn gynted â phosib, achos yn amlwg—

There's no translation.

We've lost the translation again.

We want to see that body in place as soon as possible, and we are very keen to make sure that the transition from us to that new body is as smooth as possible. And that is very much the flavour and the content of the conversations that we are having as well with the environmental governance team at the Welsh Government. It's about how do we make sure that that is as smooth as possible as well.

The translation is back, I believe, if Members wish to use it.

Fe gawsom ni gyfarfod cwpwl o fisoedd yn ôl, ble gwnaethon ni wahodd ein rhanddeiliad i ddod at ei gilydd er mwyn trafod y mater fel ein bod ni'n gallu cael barn oddi wrthyn nhw. Rydyn ni ar hyn o bryd hefyd yn trafod ein hunain efallai y dylen ni fod yn gwneud adroddiad byr, efallai, ar ein profiad ni cyn belled, fel corff interim. Petaem ni'n gallu cyhoeddi hwnna, efallai y buasai'n helpu gyda datblygiad y corff newydd yna—er enghraifft, pethau ŷn ni wedi dysgu o ran cydweithio gyda rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig, sut i wneud yn siŵr ein bod ni’n cael ceisiadau o safon ac yn y blaen. Felly, dŷn ni wedi bod yn trafod a ddylen ni fod yn gwneud hynny, a dwi’n credu taw'r penderfyniad yw y dylen ni fod yn gwneud adroddiad byr, jest yn siarad mwy amboutu beth ŷn ni wedi dysgu dros y tair blynedd ddiwethaf. Ac mae hynny efallai yn ategu rhai o’r pwyntiau gafodd eu gwneud yn gynharach amboutu adlewyrchu ar beth ŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud. A dwi’n credu bod hwnna’n mynd i fod yn ddefnyddiol i ni yn nhermau’r dirprwyon yn ymuno hefyd o ran mynd trwyddo ac adolygu ein prosesau ni. Ond dŷn ni yn adolygu’n prosesau’n gyson er mwyn trio gwella’n systemau.

Thank you. Would you advocate for the establishment of a shadow body prior to the relevant statutory powers coming forward, as was the case with the Office for Environmental Protection and Environmental Standards Scotland?

Dwi wedi cael llawer o drafodaethau gyda'r OEP a'r ESS amboutu’r mater yma, ac yn sicr, mae yna fantais o fod y pethau yna wedi cael eu rhoi mewn lle cyn bod y corff parhaol yn barod, fel ei fod e’n gallu dechrau cyn gynted â phosib. Dwi’n credu mai’r cwestiwn i ofyn, efallai, yw sut mae hynny’n gweithio o ran y rôl interim. Achos yn wahanol i’r lleill, mae gyda ni rôl interim, felly beth yw’r ffordd orau, efallai, yn ymarferol, i drosglwyddo o’r rôl interim yna i mewn i’r corff shadow, neu ydy e’n gallu bod yn un neu’r llall. So, dyna’r math o drafodaethau ŷn ni yn eu cael gyda’r adran sydd yn datblygu hyn. Ond yn amlwg, mae’r penderfyniadau yna gyda Llywodraeth Cymru.

I think all of us would agree that the most important thing is that we get it done soon. None of us want to be sitting in this interim role for a long time; it's important for the environment in Wales that a permanent body is put in place as soon as possible.

That was my other question. You've been appointed in the interim for three years, so I was just wondering how that would work together. You're anticipating that it carries on till May 2027.

There is a suggestion that the body would be in existence before then, potentially.

Dyw hwnna ddim yn ein dwylo ni.

The appointments of the deputies have been made for three years to make sure that there is at least continuity into that new body, whenever that happens. I think the idea was to put it as far as possible forward so that there was definitely no gap between the two.

Do you have any comments or concerns regarding the White Paper that was published on the proposals for the governance body coming forward?

I don't think we've got any specific comments on the White Paper. I think, as I said, one thing perhaps that we could be doing is writing a short report about what we've learnt during the last three and a half years that might help inform that. But obviously, it's a decision for the Welsh Government as to what they want to do in terms of that new body.

That sounds a useful suggestion. I think my concern was that we did have experts on the new body, and not just somebody appointed from the civil service who didn't have that expertise—so, to get that priority. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Nôl â ni at Janet.

You plan to leave the role in February; how will you ensure that your learning will be passed on to any successor, and indeed the Welsh Government?

My contract was extended until 28 February 2025. There needs to be further conversations about what happens after that date in terms of my role, and whether it's extended or not. Certainly, one of the things that we've been talking a lot about over the two months—. Obviously, we've had the joining of the deputies, so we've spent a lot of time in terms of processes, et cetera, making sure everybody understands how it all works. So, we all understand how everything works between us, but we've then got designated roles within that.

In terms of succession and continuity, I think something that's also really important to me as well is to make sure that if something were to happen to me or if there was an issue in terms of illness or whatever, there was that cover available; we have that cover now, and I think that's a really important point to make. So, I don't envisage there would be any issues in terms of that transition, if there were any.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Awn ni ymlaen at Delyth.

Helo eto. Ydy'r cyfieithu'n gweithio?

Ydy, mae popeth yn gweithio.

Ocê. Roeddwn i eisiau gofyn i chi am ymgysylltu gyda'ch—beth ydy counterparts yn Gymraeg—eich cyfatebwyr yn Lloegr a’r Alban. Beth ydych chi wedi ei ddysgu o'r gwaith yna rŷch chi’n ei wneud ar y cyd gyda nhw, neu'r ymgysylltu dŷch chi’n ei gael gyda nhw?

I'm coming to this new, of course. My immediate reaction is that they are incredibly welcoming, really keen to hear what we have to say, and really keen to tell us all the things that they found difficult on the way and things we might do differently et cetera. I know that Nerys has had regular meetings with them over the years, and we do have a memorandum of understanding set up with them to facilitate collaboration. As Anna mentioned earlier, we're all working together on that report on SPAs, because it's the same question going to all three bodies, so it's a good example there. They're also working on protected sites, and I'm engaging with them on that. So, they're looking at very similar issues in relation to that.

We've had face-to-face meetings. It was a very good meeting last year that I attended, before I was a member of this group, at the UK Environmental Law Association meeting in Reading, which facilitated a discussion on governance between the three bodies, and Nerys spoke at that, and then at the conference this year, which was held last month in Manchester. What was good was that a lot of the staff that are working—not at the board level, though there were board members there—there were senior working staff, not the bosses, as it were, but the ones that are leading on the projects. So, I had an opportunity to have really good collaboration with them and talk to them, and had invitations to carry on that work and meet with them whenever. So, I'm very, very positive. I think we have a lot to learn from them, and they, I'm very glad to say, consider that they've got a lot to learn from us.

Jest i danlinellu hwnna, mae’r cydweithrediad wedi bod yn arbennig rhwng yr OEP, ESS a ni, a dŷn ni’n mynd i fod yn eu croesawu nhw i Gaerdydd fis nesaf ar gyfer cael cyfarfod blynyddol o bob un ohonon ni’n gyda'n gilydd yng Nghaerdydd. Gwnaethon ni eu gwahodd nhw i Gaerdydd, gan ystyried y newidiadau sy’n digwydd fan hyn, yn meddwl byddai hwnna o fudd i ni yng Nghymru i ddysgu o’u profiadau nhw. Cawson ni’r cyfarfod yna llynedd yn Edinburgh, a rŷn ni’n cael hwnna yng Nghaerdydd eleni, ac mae e’n gyfle inni drafod y strategaethau, y materion sy’n bwysig i ni ar draws y gwahanol wledydd. Felly, allaf i fyth â phwysleisio pwysigrwydd hwnna na defnydd buddiol y cydweithrediad yna yn fwy, rwy’n credu. Mae e wedi bod yn ddefnyddiol iawn i ni.

Mae hwnna'n rili dda i glywed. Diolch am hwnna, a jest—rŷch chi wedi ateb y rhan fwyaf o fy nghwestiynau'n barod. Felly y peth olaf gen i: o ran Llywodraeth Cymru, ydyn nhw’n tueddu i gysylltu’n uniongyrchol gyda’r OEP a’r ESS, neu ydych chi yn fath o point of liaison ar eu cyfer?

So, fy nealltwriaeth i yw eu bod nhw’n cysylltu gyda nhw’n uniongyrchol yn ogystal â ni, achos, yn amlwg, mae’n rôl ni yn wahanol ac yn annibynnol i Lywodraeth Cymru, felly dŷn ni’n ymgysylltu gyda nhw ar y gwaith dŷn ni’n ei wneud, ond fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod y tîm, yr environmental governance team, hefyd yn cysylltu gyda nhw yn rheolaidd ac yn gofyn cwestiynau iddyn nhw amboutu’r trefniadau newydd ac yn y blaen. Felly, fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod hwnna’n digwydd hefyd.

Ocê. Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Diolch yn fawr, Delyth. Diolch. Awn ni ymlaen at Joyce.

The final question is this: you gave some advice to Natural Resources Wales that resulted in them introducing a public register and they created a regional advisory committee as a sub-body of their land management committee after you gave submissions to them. So, my question is: has that given you confidence that the work that you do is being taken note of and, more importantly, has it given you a new impetus to produce reports as a result of that?

Interestingly, that was in relation to a submission that was outside of our remit, because it related to a potential breach, and as a result of that, it wasn't within our remit to develop a report on it. However, what we did was we contacted and spoke to NRW about it, said that we'd had this submission and said, 'Well, is there something that could be done about this? and 'Could you consider this?' And it's resulted, as you said, in very positive action. So, that's an example of how, perhaps, the way we work, the liaison we have, the good relationships that we've built can actually achieve results and change without, necessarily, the expense and the cost of a report and the time being spent in relation to that. So, it's all about those positive outcomes, really, isn't it? So, that is an example of one where that's happened without the need for a report.

Just on NRW, we meet regularly with NRW at various levels and on various issues that we're considering, and one of the things that we did earlier this year was hold a legislative review session in January with NRW, where we had a very open and frank discussion about areas of environmental law in Wales that could be considered to have issues where we could be improving their effectiveness. And that was an opportunity for a two-way dialogue in relation to those issues. So, those kinds of proactive discussions and opportunities to have conversations do sometimes have really worthwhile impacts as well, without, perhaps, going through the formal procedure of a report as well.

Thank you. I just thought it would be nice to finish on a high. [Laughter.]

Well, we're not finished yet, I'm afraid.

Achos roeddwn i eisiau gofyn, yn sgil darlledu Y Byd ar Bedwar ar S4C yn gynharach yr wythnos yma, ydy hwnna'n rhywbeth—? Rhai o'r honiadau gan rai o'r chwythwyr chwiban ynglŷn â lefel y fiwrocratiaeth ac efallai diffyg ymateb i ddigwyddiadau amgylcheddol—ydy hwnna'n rhywbeth y byddwch chi'n edrych i'w drafod gyda nhw?

Mae hwnna'n sicr rhywbeth y gallwn ni drafod gyda nhw, yntefe, a dŷn ni'n trafod pob math o faterion pan rŷn ni'n cael ein cyfarfodydd cyson gyda nhw, gan gynnwys rhoi adborth iddyn nhw ar bethau sydd wedi dod i'n sylw drwy geisiadau, ond hefyd drwy drafodaethau dŷn ni'n eu cael gyda rhanddeiliaid eraill. So, dŷn ni yn rhoi'r adborth yna, neu'r wybodaeth yna yn gyson yn y cyfarfodydd hynny, ydyn.

Ocê. Gaf i jest ofyn hefyd ynglŷn â'r submissions, y pynciau sy'n dod atoch chi? Yn amlwg, mae'r nifer yn mynd o fan hyn i fanna i fanna ac yn y blaen, hynny yw gallai rhai ddweud ei fod yn arwydd da bod pobl yn teimlo bod yna bethau i'w cyfeirio atoch chi, neu'n wendid, efallai, os oes llai, a phobl ddim, o reidrwydd, yn gwybod amdanoch chi. Sut ŷch chi'n teimlo mae'r canfyddiad cyhoeddus o'ch rôl chi nawr, hynny yw yr ymwybyddiaeth o'r ffaith eich bod chi yna? Ydych chi'n hyderus bod hwnna'n cynyddu, neu ydych chi'n teimlo efallai fod pobl dal yn oblivious i'r ffaith eich bod chi'n bodoli?

Na, dwi'n credu ei fod e'n cynyddu. Yn amlwg, mae yna wastad lle i wella ar hwnna, a gallem ni fod yn gwneud mwy ar hwnna, ond dwi yn credu bod yr ymwybyddiaeth yn llawer gwell nag yr oedd e ar y cychwyn. Hefyd, dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n amlygu ei hunan nid yn unig yn nhermau ceisiadau ond hefyd yn y gwaith rŷn ni'n ei wneud gyda rhanddeiliaid a'r ffaith bod ein rhestr rhanddeiliaid ni'n cynyddu drwy'r amser a bod yna bobl eraill yn gofyn am gael eu hadio at hwnna. Dŷn ni'n cael cyfarfod chwarterol gyda'r rhanddeiliaid i gyd arlein, sy'n agored i unrhyw un sydd eisiau ymuno ag e, ac mae hwnna'n cael trafodaeth fywiog hefyd yn aml iawn ar wahanol faterion sydd eisiau eu codi. Felly, dwi'n gobeithio'n fawr fod hwnna wedi gwella ymwybyddiaeth o'r rôl a beth dŷn ni'n ei wneud.

Dŷn ni hefyd wedi bod yn gweithio ar wella, efallai, o ran communications—cyfathrebu—ein cyfathrebu allanol ni hefyd ac mae gennym ni strategaeth ar gyfer hwnna hefyd, a dŷn ni wrthi'n datblygu hwnna'n gyhoeddus—yn yr wythnosau nesaf yma mae'n mynd i ddod allan, dwi'n credu.

Dyna fe. Ocê. Iawn. Oes gan unrhyw un unrhyw gwestiynau pellach neu faterion pellach rŷch chi eisiau codi? Na. Dyna ni, felly. Gaf i ddiolch o galon i'r tair ohonoch chi am eich tystiolaeth ac am fod gyda ni fel rhan o'r craffu blynyddol? Mi fyddwn ni'n anfon drafft o'r transgript atoch chi, jest i wirio. Dwi'n amau, felly, os ŷch chi yn sefyll i lawr yn Chwefror y flwyddyn nesaf, efallai na fyddwch chi o flaen y pwyllgor, yn sicr o ran craffu blynyddol, so gaf i ddiolch i chi am y cyfraniad rŷch chi wedi'i wneud ac am osod y seiliau ar gyfer y trefniadau interim a fydd, gobeithio, yn aeddfedu i mewn i drefniant mwy parhaol? Mae'n dyled ni'n fawr i chi am hynny ac rŷn ni'n gwerthfawrogi'n fawr y ffaith eich bod chi yn dod atom ni ar gyfer y craffu yma hefyd. So, diolch o galon i chi i gyd am fod gyda ni. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Croeso.

Mi wnawn ni barhau â'n cyfarfod, felly, wrth i chi adael, so diolch am hynny.