Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Felly, rwy'n cynnig, o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42, fod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 4, 6, 7 ac 11 o’r cyfarfod hwn, a’r cyfan o'r cyfarfod a drefnwyd ar gyfer 2 Hydref. Ydy'r Aelodau’n fodlon derbyn y cynnig hwnnw? Iawn, ocê, mi wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni yn breifat, ond, eto, i unrhyw un sy'n gwylio, byddwn ni'n fyw eto am 10:40.

Bore da, a chroeso nôl i’n gwylwyr ni. Dŷn ni’n symud yn syth nawr at eitem 5. Dŷn ni’n cynnal ein sesiwn dystiolaeth gyntaf ar ein hymchwiliad i effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon, a byddwn ni nawr yn clywed gan Lyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru. Gwnaf i ofyn i’n tystion ni i gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record, a gwnaf i fynd at Ashok yn gyntaf.

Ashok Ahir, llywydd y llyfrgell genedlaethol.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A Rhodri.

Rhodri Llwyd Morgan, prif weithredwr Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru.

Mae croeso mawr i’r ddau ohonoch chi. Diolch am fod yma gyda ni. Gwnawn ni fynd yn syth at gwestiynau, os yw hwnna’n iawn. Roedd y prif weithredwr a llyfrgellydd blaenorol wedi sôn wrthym ni yn eithaf plaen fod y gostyngiadau yn nifer staff y llyfrgell wedi codi pryderon sylweddol ynglŷn â diogelwch hirdymor a chadwraeth treftadaeth ddogfennol Cymru. Ydych chi’n rhannu’r pryderon hynny, os gwelwch yn dda?

Gwnaf i ddechrau drwy egluro ychydig o’r camau sydd wedi digwydd yn dilyn cadarnhau y toriad cyllid. Felly, roedd y cadarnhad wedi dod ym mis Rhagfyr ac mi wnaeth y llyfrgell ymateb yn syth drwy edrych ar sut oedd medru addasu i’r toriad o ran blaenoriaethu cynnal gwasanaethau rheng flaen y llyfrgell, y gwasanaethau i’r cyhoedd, ond hefyd diogelu, lle oedd modd, y llwyth gwaith ychwanegol fyddai rhywun wedi derbyn oedd yn bryder naturiol, fyddai’n cwympo ar y staff, a hefyd drwy gychwyn cynllun ymadawiadau gwirfoddol. Felly, mae yna 24 o staff yn gadael o ganlyniad i’r toriad drwy’r llwybr gwirfoddol. Mae 18 o’r staff hynny wedi gadael erbyn hyn ac mae yna ryw chwech yn weddill yn gadael dros yr wythnosau nesaf, ac mae hynny yn cyfrif fel 10 y cant o’r gweithlu. Does dim cuddio’r ffaith nad yw hynny yn creu pryder, wrth gwrs, ynglŷn â’r gallu sydd gan y sefydliad i barhau i wneud popeth yn yr un ffordd. Dyw hynny ddim yn bosib, a dwi’n cofio dweud hynny yn y cyfarfodydd staff gawson ni ar ôl wythnos lle oeddwn i yn y swydd fel prif weithredwr ar ddechrau mis Ebrill. Felly, rŷn ni’n mynd drwy’r cyfnod yna, yn dal i fod, o addasu ac ystyried sut ŷn ni’n medru gwneud gwaith weithiau’n wahanol, ond hefyd wynebu y ffaith y gall rhai pethau arafu ac efallai y bydd llai o bethau yn gallu digwydd yn dilyn y toriad.

Rŷn ni’n ceisio gwneud sawl peth eithaf sylweddol yw’r gwirionedd, hefyd, yn ystod y cyfnod yma rhwng Ebrill a diwedd y flwyddyn galendr, lle ŷn ni’n mynd i’r afael â delio ag addasiadau yn dilyn ymadawiadau. Rŷn ni’n gweithio gyda’r bwrdd, gyda’r staff, ar lunio cynllun strategol newydd ar gyfer y llyfrgell. Rŷn ni wedi datblygu rhaglen newid ac adnewyddu sydd yn rhannol yn ceisio cwrdd â’r anghenion yn dilyn y lleihad yn nifer y staff, ond hefyd sydd yn ceisio bod yn edrych ymlaen, edrych ymlaen yn bositif ac yn edrych ar ffyrdd o fod yn darparu a gweithio mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Cynllunio olyniaeth: mae hynny’n hynod o bwysig mewn sefydliad sydd â systemau a phrosesau a staff arbenigol a gwybodus dros ben. Felly, mae’r rhaglen newid yna’n digwydd. Rŷn ni hefyd yn ymgynghori ar newidiadau i’r cynllun pensiwn, oherwydd mae hynny hefyd yn rhan bwysig iawn o sefyllfa darlun cyllidol y llyfrgell.

Felly, dyna bedwar project i chi, heb allu sôn am eiliad am y pethau hwyl, difyr a gwych iawn ŷn ni’n eu gwneud allan yn y cymunedau ac yn denu ymwelwyr i’r llyfrgell yn Aberystwyth. Ond dyna bedwar project, pedair her sylweddol iawn ŷn ni’n mynd i’r afael â nhw nawr.

Diolch am hwnna. Oeddech chi eisiau ychwanegu unrhyw beth, Ashok?

Na, mae Rhodri wedi bod yn llawn gyda’i ateb e.

Yn hapus. Grêt, gwnawn ni symud at Heledd.

Diolch. Os caf i felly ofyn, yn amlwg, dwi'n siŵr ei bod hi'n heriol dros ben efo cynllunio olyniaeth, efo chithau wedi gorfod colli 16 o staff, yn weddol o gyflym hefyd. Sut ydych chi'n ymdopi efo'r her honno? Oes yna unrhyw risg rydych chi wedi'i adnabod o ran y casgliadau neu'r adeilad? Gaf i ofyn hefyd sut mae morâl staff a sut ydych chi'n cadw trac ar hynny? Ydych chi'n gwneud arolwg blynyddol, er enghraifft, a sut ydych chi'n gweithredu ar hynny? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae'n gyfnod o ansefydlogrwydd mawr i'r sefydliad, felly dim ond eisiau deall sut ydych chi'n gallu tracio hynny ac yn amlwg, mae yna rôl amlwg i'r bwrdd.

Oes. Gyda 24 o bobl yn gadael, mae bylchau amlwg yn mynd i ddigwydd o safbwynt gwybodaeth ac arbenigedd, ac rŷn ni wedi ceisio amddiffyn y gwasanaethau rheng flaen tra hefyd yn sicrhau bod lles y staff a'r llwyth gwaith yn cael y sylw dyledus. Felly, buaswn i'n dweud ein bod ni wedi cyrraedd sefyllfa lle mae chwech o swyddi o'r 24 ar yr ochr gorfforaethol—cyllid, llywodraethiant, ac yn y blaen; tair o'r swyddi ar yr ochr ymgysylltu ac addysg; a 15 o'r swyddi ar yr ochr datblygu cysylltiadau, archifau, isadeiledd, digidol, digido, ac yn y blaen. Felly, yn anffodus, mae pob rhan o brif weithgareddau'r llyfrgell yn cael eu heffeithio. Rŷn ni wedi gwneud ymarferiad gofalus iawn yn asesu effaith yr ymadawiadau ac adnabod, wedyn, lle oedd yn rhaid gwneud trefniadau dros dro. Mae hynny wedi gallu gweithio mewn llawer o achosion, ac mae hynny hefyd wedi cael rhywfaint o gefnogaeth ariannol o gyfeiriad Llywodraeth Cymru—rŷn ni wedi derbyn £341,000 er mwyn gallu cyflwyno mesurau lliniaru dros dro. Mae morâl yn gwestiwn da iawn; gwnaf i ddod nôl at forâl.

O ran pwyso a mesur, wedyn, y risg, i roi un esiampl syml i chi: cadwraeth. Tîm profiadol, tîm allweddol sydd yn ein galluogi ni i wneud gwaith ar y casgliadau sydd yno—yn ddigidol ac yn ffisegol—ac rŷn ni wedi derbyn bod dau o'r tîm yna wedi gadael gyda'r ymadawiadau. Nawr, flwyddyn yn ôl, buon ni'n gwneud gwaith pwysig iawn, prysur iawn ar y ddeiseb heddwch—deiseb heddwch menywod Cymru, dwi'n siŵr eich bod chi'n gyfarwydd â'r stori wych iawn—ac roedd y tîm cadwraeth yn chwarae rhan allweddol; roedd pob tîm ar draws y llyfrgell yn chwarae rhan allweddol. Flwyddyn yn ôl, derbyn y gist yn ôl o'r Smithsonian yn America, gwaith glanhau a chadwraeth allweddol yn digwydd ar gynnwys y gist, wedyn y digido, wedyn y tîm gwirfoddol yn dechrau ar y gwaith trawsgrifio, a nawr rŷn ni'n gwneud gwaith ar greu gwefan ac mae honno wedi mynd yn fyw. Ac mae digwyddiadau ymgysylltu yn rhan o'r rhaglen fydd yn cyffwrdd â phob tref, pob stryd yn y wlad, sydd yn ffantastig. Ond nawr mae'n capasiti cadwraeth ni dipyn yn llai. Fyddwn ni ddim yn gallu gwneud ac ymateb i broject mor fawr, mor ddiddorol â hynny ar amrantiad, felly. Bydd yn rhaid inni weithio projectau newydd fel hynny i mewn i'n llifoedd gwaith ni mewn ffordd dipyn bach yn fwy gofalus os ydy'r sefyllfa'n aros yn debyg i fel y mae nawr.

O ran risgiau eraill, fyddwn i'n tynnu sylw hefyd at y ffaith bod y llifoedd gwaith digidol yn cael eu heffeithio. Mae'r capasati'n llai, felly mae'r momentwm yn mynd i fod tipyn bach yn llai o hyn ymlaen, a lle mae hynny'n peri rhywfaint o risg yw nid lefel difrifoldeb y risg, ond pa mor gyflym rŷn ni'n gallu mynd i'r afael â materion. Felly, esiampl fanna, rwy'n meddwl yn benodol am sefyllfa'r Llyfrgell Brydeinig a'r ymosodiad seibr gawson nhw bron i flwyddyn yn ôl. Mae presenoldeb ar-lein y Llyfrgell Brydeinig wedi diflannu, fwy neu lai, yn gyfan gwbl ers hynny, ac mewn, efallai, mis, pythefnos i fis, maen nhw'n gobeithio ailgyflwyno eu presenoldeb yn raddol. Dŷn ni ddim wedi cael ymosodiad, ond mae'n gwytnwch ni yn debyg i broffil y Llyfrgell Brydeinig yn yr ystyr bod llawer o fuddsoddiad wedi bod dros y blynyddoedd, presenoldeb digidol eang, cymhleth wedi digwydd dros gyfnod o flynyddoedd, lle mae'n rhaid i chi uwchraddio systemau a symud gwefannau, symud y casgliadau o hen systemau i systemau newydd sydd yn fwy gwydn, a dyna'r gwaith sydd yn mynd i fod yn arafach yn y sefyllfa sydd ohoni nawr.

Diolch. Ac o ran—

Morale.

Staff morale.

I'm sorry. Yes, that's incredibly important, incredibly important. So, within a week of starting in my role, I was holding staff meetings, and we now conduct staff meetings every term, and they are an important part of our internal communication. We work very closely with the partnership council, so representatives from the trade unions. We meet very frequently and we discuss, of course, staff morale. We did a staff survey in May. The results of that are being considered very carefully by the operational team. And we're looking at the very honest opinion of our staff, who are telling us, 'Overall, we're very pleased to work in the national library. We want to stay here, we want to continue to work in the national library. We are a little bit worried about what's going to happen, we're worried about workload.' So, we are monitoring that very carefully.

Is that something that you intend to undertake annually, therefore, in order to monitor the impact?

Yes.

Mae yna arolwg staff blynyddol. Dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni'n gwneud un yn fuan. Ydy e'n mynd mas cyn y Nadolig eto?

Bydd. Bydd e'n mynd mas yn fuan.

So, of course, last year, we were tracking what the feeling was before we had to make those decisions about cuts. Of course, as a board, we will be looking at the staff responses in the current survey. But, of course, as Rhodri said, as president, I meet with the partnership council after every board meeting, face to face, and that is an opportunity for me to report back to the board about the feelings of not just the membership, but certainly the unions. Also, the summer has been very busy for the library. So, we've had the opportunity to meet staff who have been doing quite a lot of face-to-face work with the public in a lot of events and exhibitions and so on. Of course staff have concerns, but I also feel that there's a feeling amongst many of them about the opportunities we'll have, if we can reach the sort of income that we need and the sort of the support that we need from the Government.

Thank you. If I may go a little further, clearly, one of the major issues that we've been looking at is the risk to the collections and the risk to the buildings as well. You have a very challenging, older building that requires capital funding. So, what's the impact at the moment? May I also combine another question, because I know there are a whole host of questions to be asked today? What would the impact be, if you were to face a similar cut in the next financial year, in terms of the library, in terms of the building, the collections, the staff, that you faced in this financial year, or even if you received the same budget, a flat budget?

In terms of the security of our collections, exactly a week after I started, storm Kathleen rolled in and the effects of that storm were very obvious. It struck quite a bit of the lead off the roof and that loosened some of the slates. So, we have worked very closely with Government officials to try and highlight the damage that happened then, remembering, of course, that no significant work has been undertaken on the roof in those areas, above book stacks 1 and 2, since that part of the building was built 90 years ago. So, we were pleased to see the announcement in July that £1.9 million was available for us to be able to address fixing the roof. More rain did come in two nights ago, because of the very heavy rain that we had across south Wales and mid Wales too. Staff went in at 3 o'clock in the morning and they did what they could to deal with that. But having said that, the scaffolding company has arrived, the work has gone out to tender to fix the roof, a company has been appointed. We are going to address that project very, very, very rapidly. And that will mean that the roof will safe by next summer. That does give us some security and, I think, a level of confidence that one would want, as a member of the public, and that you would want, that the physical collections and the buildings are safe for generations to come—those are safe. What is also a question is not only the physical estate, but the digital estate. That is something that we need to invest in too, so we will have more discussions and develop the discussion in that regard. I feel very confident that we are listened to and that the officials, and so on, understand what the situation is, so we're going to be able to develop that understanding of the needs.

A fyddai modd darparu mwy o wybodaeth i ni fel pwyllgor o ran ochr y casgliadau digidol, dwi'n meddwl, yn arbennig o ran yr hyn roeddech chi'n dweud am yr ymosodiadau sydd wedi bod? Yn amlwg, mi wnaeth Comisiynydd y Gymraeg ddioddef ymosodiad, wedyn dydy o ddim y tu hwnt i bosibilrwydd. A jest o ran yr ochr gyllidol, beth fyddai setliad fyddai'n gweithio i chi, a beth fyddai'r heriau pe byddai'n aros yn yr unfan, neu'n ostyngiad pellach?

Wel, mae aros yn yr unfan yn mynd i achosi cryn dipyn o waith eto, wrth gwrs, i ystyried beth fyddai'r goblygiadau i hynny. Dwi wedi disgrifio'n barod, mewn ffordd, ein bod ni'n gallu addasu ac ymdopi i ryw raddau, ond mae'n effeithio ar bob rhan o'r llyfrgell o ran prif weithgareddau. Fydden ni ddim yn medru cynnal yr un strwythur staffio, i siarad yn blaen, pe bai lefel y cyllido'n rhewi neu'n aros yn yr unfan y flwyddyn nesaf, ac yn sicr ddim pe bai toriad pellach i ddigwydd. Pe bai cynnydd, wrth gwrs, fyddai hynna'n sefyllfa well y bydden ni'n ei chroesawu, a fydden ni'n gallu adeiladu i gefnogi'r cynllun strategol newydd, a mynd allan a gwneud y gwaith ychwanegol hynny o ran ymgysylltu â chymunedau ym mhob rhan o Gymru rŷn ni'n torri bol eisiau ei wneud.

Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr. Ashok.

A dyna'r perygl, rili. Ar y foment, rŷn ni'n trio ailstrwythuro'n fewnol, ond hefyd o ran rhaglenni. Ac mae lot o raglenni sydd ddim yn rhan o'r gwaith craidd, ac, fel dywedodd Rhodri, mae'n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio hefyd ar y gwaith craidd yn bendant i gadw'r casgliadau'n saff. Ond beth rŷn ni ddim eisiau yw colli'r momentwm rŷn ni wedi'i greu dros ddwy, tair blynedd o ymestyn y llyfrgell mas o Aberystwyth. Mae'r gwaith cymunedol a'r gwaith digidol yn hollbwysig, a phe bai yna ostyngiad, er enghraifft, a thoriad, byddai angen inni edrych ar hwnna. Ac rŷn ni wedi trio cadw hwn yn eithaf diogel, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl y byddwn ni'n gallu cario ymlaen pe bai yna doriad o fath y llynedd yn dod eto.

Diolch.

Mae hwnna'n dda inni glywed—wel, ddim yn dda inni glywed, ond mae e'n bwysig i ni glywed. Mae Carolyn eisiau gofyn cwestiwn, cyn inni fynd at Alun.

I was pleased to go on a tour, during the recess, of the national library—thank you very much to the staff that showed me around; it was really interesting. I heard that there's a decarbonisation programme going on, and that, hopefully, will help with funding the bills of energy and everything. You've had Welsh Government grant funding for that. How is that going?

Wel, gyda'r cynlluniau datgarboneiddio, i roi'r darlun llawn i chi, wrth gwrs, y risg ydy y gallai'r rheini arafu os ydy'r esgid yn gwasgu yn y ffordd mae wedi gwneud. Ond, wedi dweud hynny, rŷn ni'n uchelgeisiol iawn, ac rŷn ni'n ddiolchgar iawn am gefnogaeth Llywodraeth Cymru. Mae yna arian wedi dod drwy'r cytundeb cydweithio yn ogystal, sydd yn helpu datblygu momentwm. Felly, mae yna 150 o baneli solar yn mynd ar do'r drydedd storfa. Mae yna 50—mae hyn yn digwydd nawr, yr wythnos hon—o dyllau yn digwydd yn y cae bach ochr draw i'r meysydd parcio—tyllau turio ar gyfer cyflwyno pympiau gwres daear. Mae hynny'n cydgysylltu â'r gwaith wnaethon ni ar arwynebedd y maes parcio, oherwydd mae'r ceblau yn dod i mewn o'r cae bach i gysylltu gyda'r system wresogi. Rŷn ni'n edrych ar, dwi'n hyderus i ddweud, gyrraedd sero net cyn 2030. Mae hynny'n dipyn o gamp mewn adeilad wedi'i rhestri, ond mae'r tîm ystadau jest yn rhagorol, ac mae'r bwrdd wedi buddsoddi hefyd yn fawr iawn yn hyn.

Mae hwnna wedi bod yn fuddsoddiad dros gyfnod o 10 mlynedd, bron, ac rŷn ni'n lwcus bod gennym ni bennaeth da sydd â ffocws gwirioneddol ar gyrraedd hynny cyn 2030. Weithiau mae'n dweud 2028, ond dwi ddim yn credu 2028, ond weithiau mae'n dweud hynny. Ond gyda'r math o adeilad sydd yna, rŷch chi'n gallu gweld pa fath o esiampl mae'r llyfrgell wedi bod i bobl arall, gobeithio, achos rŷch chi angen buddsoddi, ond gobeithio y bydd hwn yn ein diogelu ni ychydig bach o ran unrhyw dwf mewn costau ynni yn y dyfodol, ac yn bendant dros y degawd nesaf.

Ond mae yna gost gynyddol. Mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn ofalus i beidio â gorgodi'r disgwyliadau, oherwydd rŷn ni yn y broses o waredu nwy yn llwyr a symud i drydan yn gyfan gwbl, a dulliau adnewyddol o gynhyrchu trydan yn ogystal. Ond mae costau trydan wedi mynd lan 30 y cant, felly, er bod ein defnydd ni o drydan wedi lleihau o ran unedau, mae'r gost—cyfanswm y gost—yn dal yn uwch. Felly, rŷn ni'n defnyddio popeth o fewn ein gallu ni. Mae'r system gyfan yn gweithio, gyda'r pennaeth ystadau, lle rŷn ni wedi cynhyrchu gwres. Mae cynhyrchu gwres yn golygu rhoi pŵer i mewn i'r peiriannau sydd yn oeri'r casgliadau, lle mae hynny'n bwysig. Felly, mae'r holl beth yn gweithredu fel system lawer iawn mwy effeithlon, a llawer iawn yn fwy effeithlon na fyddech chi'n dychmygu.

Rŷn ni'n cael sgyrsiau adeiladol iawn gydag Amgueddfa Cymru, yn rhannu'r arfer dda rŷn ni wedi'i datblygu, ac rŷn ni'n gobeithio y byddwn ni'n gallu cefnogi cyrff eraill yn yr un sector a sectorau eraill yn ogystal.

Gwych. Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynna. Diolch am ofyn hynna, Carolyn. Fe wnawn ni symud at Alun.

Diolch. Dwi'n falch iawn clywed hynny. Liciwn i fynd nôl at y pwynt roedd Ashok yn ei wneud amboutu'r rhaglenni gwahanol yna y mae'r llyfrgell yn rhedeg, yn ymestyn mas o Benglais. Dwi wedi bod yn mwynhau'r rhaglen S4C, Cyfrinachau'r Llyfrgell, ac roeddwn i'n falch, y noswaith o'r blaen, i ddysgu mwy am y Wenynen Gwent, wrth gwrs. Dwi'n hoff iawn o'r ffordd y mae'r llyfrgell wedi, dros y blynyddoedd, ymestyn mas i bobl Cymru ac wedi trio sicrhau bod yna gyfraniad cyfoethog i fywyd y genedl, fel disgrifiad ehangach. Ac un o'r pethau liciwn i ofyn amdano yw sut mae problemau cyllidebol—. Pa fath o impact mae diffyg cyllido, os ydych chi'n licio, yn cael ar allu'r llyfrgell i ymestyn mas o Aberystwyth?

Wel, fe wnaeth y bwrdd gymryd penderfyniad, yn dilyn adolygiad teilwredig ar y llyfrgell gan Lywodraeth Cymru, mewn ymateb i frawddeg ddadlennol oedd yn yr adolygiad, yn dweud, 'Wel, dyma gyfrinach orau Cymru'. Dyna, mewn ffordd, oedd y sbardun i ni weithio gydag S4C i gomisiynu'r gyfres ac i weithio, bron fel cydgynhyrchiad, ar gyfres Cyfrinachau'r Llyfrgell. Mae'n hyfryd, mae'n wych, ac mae'n dangos y potensial, onid ydy, o sut mae straeon yn berthnasol i ddiddordebau, i unigolion, i gymunedau ym mhob rhan o Gymru.

Mae'n effeithio arnom ni yn y ffordd rŷn ni'n gallu datblygu casgliadau. Felly, tro diwethaf roeddem ni o flaen y pwyllgor, roedd e, efallai, yn haws i fi ddisgrifio'r gwaith ymgysylltu, ond, y tu cefn i'r gwaith ymgysylltu, mae'n rhaid i'r casgliadau gael eu datblygu fel bod y cynnwys yno i chi fedru ei droi yn stori sydd yn berthnasol i unigolion a chymunedau. A beth sydd yn effeithio arnom ni o ganlyniad i'r toriad yw capasiti yn y tîm archifau a'r tîm casgliadau digidol. Er enghraifft, rŷn ni'n cael cynnig cannoedd o gasgliadau, wrth gwrs, y flwyddyn, ac mae'n rhaid bod yn eithaf dethol. Mae yna bolisi a fframwaith ar gyfer hynny. Eleni, rŷn ni wedi cael cynnig 200 o gasgliadau a dŷn ni ddim ond wedi gallu derbyn 100 ohonyn nhw. Rŷn ni hefyd yn gorfod blaenoriaethu yn ofalus y gwaith a'r amser, yn enwedig os oes cyllid allanol yn dod efo'r casgliad—maen nhw'n mynd i fyny yn y ciw, y rhestr o flaenoriaethau. Felly, i roi un esiampl i chi, fe dderbyniasom gasgliad Aelod Seneddol Cwm Cynon, Ann Clwyd, ac fe ddaeth cyfraniad ariannol gan y teulu a hefyd o ffynonellau eraill a oedd yn ein galluogi ni i gyflogi ymchwilydd/archifydd i gatalogio a disgrifio y casgliad hynny mewn manylder. Mae'r wybodaeth yna nawr yn fyw ac ar gael i bobl—ymchwilwyr, pobl sy'n ymddiddori yn holl hanesion difyr gwaith a gyrfa Ann Clwyd. Fe gawsom ni ddigwyddiad llwyddiannus iawn yn yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol; roedd y Prif Weinidog—wel, y diwrnod cyn iddi ddod yn Brif Weinidog—yn disgrifio ei phrofiad hi ac yn siarad am yr archif yn yr un cyswllt. A dyna'r math o waith rŷm ni'n gallu ei wneud, ond mae e'n digwydd pan fyddwn ni'n blaenoriaethu a hefyd pan fydd y cyllid ar gael.

Rŷm ni newydd dderbyn casgliad mudiad Chwarae Teg. Nawr, does dim capasiti gyda ni i wneud yr un lefel o fanylder o waith. Ond mae gyda chi'n fanna ddwy enghraifft—straeon pwerus iawn ynglŷn â menywod, cyfiawnder cymdeithasol, ymgyrchu, ac rŷm ni wedi gallu gwneud y gwaith gydag un ond dŷn ni ddim eto mewn sefyllfa i wneud y gwaith gyda'r llall.

And Chwarae Teg's contribution is an important one to put on record.

Ond hefyd, ar yr ochr arall, y ddadl—dwi ddim yn meindio dweud yn gyhoeddus—rwyf fi a Rhodri yn ei chael, os ŷm ni'n ymestyn mas ac rŷm ni'n trio dangos bod y llyfrgell yn llyfrgell i bawb sy'n rhan o Gymru, yw bod yn rhaid i ni weithio bach yn fwy caled i gasglu rhywbeth sydd ddim yn gasgliad Ann Clwyd neu Chwarae Teg, achos dyna'r math o gasgliadau sydd wastad wedi dod i'r llyfrgell. Ond os ydym eisiau mynd i mewn ac adeiladu'r capasiti o'r hanes, o'r dogfennau, o'r dystiolaeth, lluniau teulu mewn cymunedau sydd ddim wedi bod mewn cysylltiad gyda'r llyfrgell dros y 30, 40, 50 mlynedd diwethaf, mae'n rhaid i ni fynd mas weithiau i weithio gyda nhw, ac wedyn cael y capasiti nôl yn Aberystwyth i fynd trwyddyn nhw a'u catalogio nhw, ac wedyn eu gwneud nhw ar gael i bawb. Mae hwnna'n waith anodd iawn ac mae'n gostus iawn, ac ar y foment does gennym ni ddim y capasiti. Ond dwi eisiau i ni ei wneud e, a gwneud mwy ohono fe, ond mae weithiau'n anoddach na derbyn peil gan Aelod Seneddol.

Ie. Edrychwch, mae hon yn sgwrs licien i ei chael am weddill y bore, ond dwi'n ymwybodol o'r amser. So, mae gyda ni greisis cyllidebol, ariannol. Rydym ni'n deall hynny ac yn gwybod hynny, ac mi rydych chi mewn sawl ffordd wedi disgrifio hynny ac impact hynny ar sut dŷch chi'n gweithio ac ar y casgliad ei hun. So, licien i ddeall tipyn bach mwy am y ffordd dŷch chi wedi ymateb. Dŷch chi wedi disgrifio hynny'n barod, i ryw raddau, ond sut dŷch chi wedi cydweithio â chyrff gwahanol i greu arian, codi arian a chreu adnoddau? Sut, er enghraifft, yn dilyn y sgwrs rŷn ni newydd ei chael, ydych chi'n gweithio gydag archifau sirol, er enghraifft, i sicrhau bod rhyw archif yn mynd i'r lle priodol, penodol, yn lle bod pob dim yn mynd i Aberystwyth? Licien i ddeall pa fath o greadur, os liciwch chi, ydy'r llyfrgell pan fo'n dod i gydweithio â chyrff gwahanol yng Nghymru a tu fas.

Fe wnaf i ddechrau gyda'r sector—llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus, llyfrgelloedd ymchwil, a hefyd archifau sirol a rhanbarthol—a'r berthynas agos iawn, ac mae Llywodraeth Cymru yn buddsoddi, yn ariannu gwaith yn y llyfrgell genedlaethol i gynorthwyo llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus—cyflwyno un system llyfrgelloedd newydd ar gyfer y llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus fel bod defnyddwyr/darllenwyr llyfrgelloedd cyhoeddus, gyda chymorth y llyfrgell genedlaethol, yn medru cael y wybodaeth a chatalog, ac yn y blaen, o ddeunyddiau electronig ac eraill yn ddirwystr mewn system hollol gyson ar draws Cymru. Mae hynna'n grêt. Ac rŷm ni'n mynd i gario ymlaen gyda'r gwaith yna, ond mae'r capasiti sydd gyda ni ar gyfer y prosiect arbennig yna wedi cael ei effeithio gan y toriad arbennig sydd wedi digwydd.

Yn yr un modd, rŷm ni'n cario ymlaen gydag archifau. Rŷm ni'n gweithio'n agos iawn gydag archifau. Rŷm ni wedi lleoli corneli clip yr archif ddarlledu mewn sawl archifdy lleol. Roeddwn i i fyny yng Nghaernarfon yn ystod yr haf, yn agor cornel clip Caernarfon. Mae'r gwaith hwnnw yn talu ar ei ganfed, oherwydd mae'n swyddog ymgysylltu ni, sydd yn gweithio ar draws y gogledd, yn gweithio gydag archifau Conwy, yn gweithio gydag archifau Gwynedd ac eraill, ac yn estyn allan i'r gymuned, yn gweithio mewn partneriaeth gyda, er enghraifft, elusennau sydd yn cynorthwyo pobl ifanc digartref, banciau bwyd ac yn y blaen, ar draws y gogledd. Mae hynny'n waith mewn partneriaeth sydd yn dod, ac wedi dod, yn rhywbeth greddfol; mae'n ail natur inni nawr fel llyfrgell, yn y ffordd ŷn ni'n gweithredu.

Dwi wedi sôn ychydig bach am y sector treftadaeth; rŷn ni'n gwneud lot gydag Amgueddfa Cymru, y comisiwn a Cadw, yn naturiol, fel byddech chi'n ei ddisgwyl. Tu allan i Gymru, wedyn, mae yna sgôp enfawr, dwi'n credu, i ddatblygu, yn enwedig yr ochr wirfoddoli a'r potensial ar gyfer denu rhoddion, yn ogystal. Buodd rhai swyddogion allan yng Ngŵyl Cymru Gogledd America—

Gwelais i, ie, gyda'r ddeiseb.

Ie. Ac mae'r ddeiseb, wrth gwrs, yn llwyfan wych ar gyfer siarad gyda'r gynulleidfa, y diaspora, y bobl o dras Cymreig—

Gaf i dy stopio di fanno, Rhodri? Gwelais i, dwi'n credu, ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol, y gwaith dŷch chi wedi bod yn ei wneud yng Ngogledd America, ac mae hynny yn wych o beth—a dwi'n gobeithio eich bod chi'n cadw mewn cysylltiad â swyddfa Llywodraeth Cymru tra'ch bod chi'n ei wneud. Mae yna lot fawr o ddiaspora Cymreig fanno a fuasai â diddordeb yn hynny. Oes yna ffordd i chi feithrin perthynas gyda'r bobl yna, defnyddio swyddfa Llywodraeth Cymru, er enghraifft, i sicrhau efallai grantiau, efallai cyllideb o'r diaspora sydd gyda ni, wrth sôn am Ogledd America yn yr enghraifft benodol yma?

Oes, yn sicr. Daeth y tîm yn ôl o NAFOW, o'r ŵyl yng Ngogledd America gyda 200 o unigolion wedi cofrestru diddordeb i gadw mewn cysylltiad, i ddod, efallai, yn wirfoddolwyr fyddai'n gallu cyfrannu at prosiectau real, megis trawsgrifio rhannau o'r ddeiseb heddwch, a thrawsgrifio pethau eraill inni yn ogystal, ond wedyn datblygu'r berthynas yna i fod, wedyn, yn gefnogwyr, yn noddwyr, yn rhoddwyr, oherwydd ŷn ni'n gwybod taw dyna ydy'r diwylliant elusennol, philanthropic yn America—ŷn ni'n deall hynna. Rŷn ni'n dysgu ac rŷn ni'n mynd i ddatblygu'r cysylltiadau. Mae yna brosiect gallaf sôn amdano fe—efallai gwnaf gadw'r powdr dipyn bach yn sychach, os wyt ti, Ashok, eisiau dod mewn.

Mae hwn wedi bod yn rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei ystyried ers cwpl o flynyddoedd, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna gap enfawr yn y farchnad o ran diaspora. Ond mae'n rhaid inni fod yn siŵr bod ein hadnoddau ni nôl yn Aberystwyth neu ble bynnag yn rhoi mynediad at archif bendant—nid jest elfen o'r sensws, ond bod llwyth o archif arall ar gael. Achos y peth am y farchnad hanes teuluol yn America yw bod rhai gwledydd—Iwerddon, hyd yn oed yr Alban—lot bellach lawr y ffordd o ran beth sydd ar gael. So, rŷn ni wedi bod yn siarad gydag Iwerddon yn ddiweddar; mae Rhodri wedi cael cyfarfod gyda llyfrgell Iwerddon yn ddiweddar am eu gwaith nhw i gysylltu â'r diaspora a defnyddio'r archif i roi mynediad i bobl ffeindio mas mwy am hanes. Ond eto, ar y foment, does gennym ni ddim capasiti. Hefyd, mae'n her, o ran digidol, i fod yn siŵr bod ein casgliadau ni mewn ffordd syml i bobl ymchwilio a mynd trwy a trio ffeindio yr elfen yna.

Does gyda chi ddim y capasiti, ond—

Dwi'n meddwl—

—sorry—but you're the most important source of historical information in the country, to a certain extent, and so you do have the ability to contribute something. You mention the diaspora there in this case, but there is a richer contribution that would be possible to make, and I would think that there's a little bit of demand for that. So, we're not just talking about capacity but we're talking about investment, and I would expect that the Government would be able to support you to do that.

Diolch am hynna. Dwi’n meddwl bod Heledd eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn hefyd.

Jest o ran yr elfen cynhyrchu incwm, yn amlwg rydych chi wedi sôn lot fawr ynglŷn â chapasiti. Faint o her ydy o i fod yn tyfu incwm oherwydd y toriadau? Beth ydy’r cyfyngiadau oherwydd hynny? A hefyd, roeddech chi’n sôn am beth rydych chi'n methu â gwneud o ran y gwaith ymgysylltu. Yn amlwg, mae lot o grantiau allanol rŵan yn ddibynnol ar y gwaith ymgysylltu, a thystiolaeth o fod yn gwneud y gwaith hwnnw. Roeddech chi’n nodi colli tri o aelodau staff, dwi’n meddwl, o’r adran addysg ac ymgysylltu, sydd yn dîm bach iawn beth bynnag. Sut ydych chi, felly, yn gallu cael y balans ar y funud rhwng codi incwm a'r heriau rydych chi’n eu hwynebu? Ac fel roedd Alun yn ei ddweud, pa mor agored ydy Llywodraeth Cymru i ddeall effaith y toriadau arnoch chi’n gallu cynhyrchu incwm hefyd?

Mae sawl prosiect wedi bod yn digwydd, diolch i fuddsoddiad dros ddwy flynedd, i greu a chryfhau tîm ymgysylltu, addysg a chodi arian y llyfrgell. Y perygl, o’m rhan i, yw colli momentwm, yn fwy na diflannu. Mae’r momentwm wedi’i adeiladu i’r fath raddau ein bod ni wedi cael yr haf prysuraf yn y llyfrgell ers 2011. Rŷn ni wedi cael lefelau ymwelwyr 25 y cant yn uwch am yr un cyfnod, o gymharu â 2019. Mae llwyddiant hynny yn seiliedig ar nid yn unig blockbuster fel y Canaletto yn dod fel canolbwynt i arddangosfa—roedd y rhan fwyaf ohono fe o’n casgliad ni—ond mae hefyd yn deillio o ymgysylltu y tu allan i Aberystwyth mewn cymunedau. Mae e hefyd yn deillio o’r ffaith bod cyfleusterau mwy croesawgar ar gyfer teuluoedd, ystafell i blant tair i saith oed. Mae’r holl beth yn gweithio gyda’i gilydd, gyda phrosiectau sydd yn denu grwpiau sydd wedi cael eu tangynrychioli yn ein gwaith ni yn y gorffennol, ond rŷn ni’n gwneud ymdrech i fynd y filltir ychwanegol.

Colli momentwm yw’r risg wedyn, yn hytrach na gweld diflannu o ran y pwyslais. Byddai hynny yn drueni ofnadwy, oherwydd mae’r cyfraniad mae’r gwaith yna yn ei wneud o ran llesiant y grwpiau sydd yn ymgysylltu gyda ni, boed yn ysgolion o Flaenau Gwent, neu o unrhyw ran o’r wlad—. Mae nhw’n teimlo bod y gwaith yn berthnasol iddyn nhw, ei fod e’n berthnasol i’r cwricwlwm, ei fod e’n berthnasol o ran uchelgais a chyflogadwyedd y disgyblion. Ac mae hynna wedi bod yn neges bwerus i ni hefyd. Roeddwn i’n trafod hyn gyda phrif weithredwr S4C bore ddoe, o ran sut roedd—

Yn benodol, sori, os caf i, o ran yr incwm, felly—. Rydych chi’n sôn ynglŷn â cholli momentwm. Oes yna risg ar y funud eich bod chi ddim chwaith yn gallu cynhyrchu’r incwm a’r potensial yna fel eich bod chi ddim mor ddibynnol ar grantiau gan y Llywodraeth?

Os gallaf ofyn am ateb eithaf byr, achos mae'n rhaid i ni symud ymlaen.

Yn fyr iawn, rŷn ni wedi setio lan tîm bach codi arian, wrth gwrs, ond, ar y foment, mae hwnna’n fuddsoddiad. Does dim byd wedi dod nôl atyn nhw; mae’n cymryd pum mlynedd, lan at ddegawd, i’r math yna o fuddsoddiad ddod nôl. Wrth gwrs, os bydd toriadau’n dod, bydd rhaid i ni edrych ar bob un adran.

Diolch am hynna—

Mae yna geisiadau grant rhif y gwlith wedi mynd mewn drwy’r tîm bach ers eu sefydlu nhw flwyddyn, 18 mis yn ôl. Felly, mae hynny’n dangos allbwn, ond efallai dŷn ni ddim yn siŵr o’r canlyniad eto. Hefyd, beth rŷn ni wedi gweld yw llwyddiant denu’r ymwelwyr i Aberystwyth. Mae e’n talu ar ei ganfed o safbwynt incwm i mewn i’r caffi a’r siop, ac felly mae canlyniadau o hynny. Dyw e ddim yn cyfrannu yn sylweddol at y gwaelodlin, na. Y gwaith rhoddion, dwi’n credu, mewn cyfnod o flynyddoedd, fydd yn gwneud cyfraniad sylweddol iawn.

Diolch am hynna. Mae gan Laura—. O, mae'n flin gen i, Ashok, achos amser, ydych chi'n meindio os ŷn ni'n symud ymlaen?

Na, dwi ddim yn meindio.

Mae gan Laura gwestiwn atodol.

Yes, it’s actually a question—. I can hear myself echoing, sorry. It was actually a question I was going to ask later, but I think I just want to ask it now. What’s the impact of the additional moneys that you’ve received from the Welsh Government this September? What impact has that had on the library and your forward work now?

Mae'r cyllid hwnnw yn rhywbeth rŷn ni'n ei groesawu. Mae e'n mynd i ddau gyfeiriad, a £725,00 oedd y cyfanswm. Mae £0.5 miliwn yn mynd tuag at gynorthwyo gyda dyled yn y cynllun pensiwn. Mae hynny'n golygu, o leihau y ddyled honno, fod y strwythur staffio yn well o ran ein gallu i fedru fforddio cynnal y strwythur staffio i'r dyfodol, yn ystod y cyfnod hwnnw o leiaf. A hefyd £225,000 i mewn i brosiectau isadeiledd technoleg gwybodaeth a digido ein hystad ni o ran y gallu i storio yn ddiogel a'n gwneud ein hunain yn fwy gwydn.

Hapus? Ocê. Gwnawn ni symud at Carolyn.

On my visit, what struck me is that it's not just a library of books; it's a library of things—so many maps, but the paintings as well. I saw the Canaletto exhibition. I was able to see a painting of Castell Dinas Brân in 1770, and Parys mountain. I was able to pretend to be a weatherperson and listen to different programmes going back over the years. There is so much there that I didn't know about, and it was amazing. I wanted to say that when the schoolchildren were here, because there is absolutely something for everybody.

My question to you, though, is just about Welsh Government interventions again. Have you had to amend your remit in the light of reduced funding from the Welsh Government? I actually saw an area as well where—. I know you've got to expand as well, because you've got more coming in. There was an area, as well—an open space area, like a cloisters—where you're hoping to expand, as well, the infrastructure, but I wasn't sure where that funding was coming from.

Diolch yn fawr. Ydy, mae'r gwaith a sut rŷn ni'n medru cysylltu rhwng y gwahanol gasgliadau—. Mae'r archif ddarlledu yn enghraifft hyfryd, oherwydd mae gyda ni ganrif o ddeunydd ffilm a fideo a sain a phob math o recordiadau wedi dod drwy ITV, drwy'r BBC, S4C ac yn y blaen, a sut mae'r rheini yn cyfoethogi prosiectau ar lawr gwlad mewn cymunedau. Roeddwn i efallai wedi disgrifio o'r blaen sut roedd plant Ysgol Gynradd Sgeti wedi cael defnydd o archif straeon o 1969 o brotestiadau yn erbyn apartheid, pan oedd tîm rygbi De Affrica wedi ymweld, a sut oedd rhannu eraill o'r archif—celf Paul Peter Piech, yn ogystal â llythyron bygwth wnaeth Peter Hain dderbyn gan bobl yn yr ardal—wedi bywiogi y stori i blant yr ysgol yna i greu, wedyn, adnodd digidol sydd nawr ar gael ar gyfer pob ysgol. Felly, mae adeiladu haenau o stori yn rhywbeth rŷn ni'n gallu gwneud yn wych, dwi'n meddwl, yn y llyfrgell. Mae yna brosiect ar fin digwydd—rŷn ni wedi cael caniatâd cynllunio nawr—ar gyfer yr atriwm. Felly, hwn ydy'r infill lle mae gofod tu mewn i'r adeilad lle gallwn ni adeiladu storfa newydd, ac mae hynny yn mynd i roi i ni gapasiti storio ar gyfer, gobeithio, 10 mlynedd i'r dyfodol. Diolch.

Previously, it was mentioned that there has not been much engagement with the Welsh Government. I know that Jane Hutt, the Minister, was visiting the week after me. Has engagement increased now with the Welsh Government? And also what changes would you like to see with the Welsh Government's budget process? Would that be helpful? Just generally about that.

Mae yna ddau beth o ran ymateb. Dwi'n gwybod bod yr ymgysylltu rhwng Llywodraeth Cymru, a'r bwrdd yn ogystal—. Mae hynny'n rhan bwysig iawn. Felly, mae swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn bresennol yn ein cyfarfodydd bwrdd, ac wedi bod bob amser dwi wedi bod yn y cyfarfodydd hynny. Dwi'n teimlo bod yna lefel dda iawn o ymgysylltiad gyda'r swyddogion a gyda'r Gweinidogion ac Aelodau Senedd Cymru. Rŷn ni'n derbyn llawer o ymweliadau. Rŷn ni'n rhoi'r un sioe i bawb. Rŷn ni'n dod â Dr Maredudd ap Huw allan o'r cefndir, ac mae e'n rhannu cyfrinachau'r llyfrgell, ac mae sawl un o aelodau eraill y tîm yn hapus iawn i dderbyn ymweliadau—maen nhw'n edrych yn hapus iawn; efallai eu bod nhw'n cael llond bol ohonom ni weithiau yn galw ac yn tarfu ar eu gwaith, y tim cadwraeth yn enwedig. Mae pawb yn dod i mewn i'r ardal gadwraeth ac maen nhw'n dangos i ymwelwyr y gwaith atgyweirio memrwn, ailadeiladu llawysgrifau, sut maen nhw'n rhoi'r inc sy'n erydu'r testun ac yn torri'r casgliad—sut maen nhw'n rhoi bath i'r inc yma, sut mae hwnna'n golchi, yn glanhau ac yn diogelu'r llawysgrifau prin a bregus iawn yma. Mae e fel dewiniaeth; mae'n hollol anhygoel beth maen nhw'n ei wneud. Ac mae pawb yn gadael yna wedi'u syfrdanu pa mor wych ydy'r sgiliau sydd gennym ni yn y llyfrgell. Felly, mae'r lefel yna o ymgysylltu, dwi'n meddwl, yn dda.

Beth rydyn ni eisiau ei weld, efallai, i'r dyfodol yw parhau â'r lefel o ymgysylltu, ond efallai y newid yr hoffwn ni ei weld yw'r Llywodraeth yn medru bod tipyn bach yn fwy hyblyg gyda ni o ran y defnydd o'r grant cymorth. Ar hyn o bryd, dydyn ni ddim yn gallu cario drosodd mwy na 2 y cant o gyfanswm grant cymorth Llywodraeth Cymru. A gan fod cyllid yn dod i mewn yn ystod y flwyddyn, weithiau, pan fydd cyfleoedd yn codi, mae hwnna'n ei wneud e bach yn fwy anodd wedyn, achos mae'n rhaid ei wario fe i gyd cyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol. Pe bai hyblygrwydd i gario drosodd, byddai hynny o gymorth.

Pwynt arall o ran cysylltu â'r Llywodraeth: wrth gwrs, mae gennym ni nawr Gabinet newydd, ac rydyn ni'n hapus i weld ein sector ni yn eistedd gyda sgiliau, er enghraifft. Fel mae Rhodri newydd sôn, mae yna lot o sgiliau lle rydyn ni'n dechrau poeni ychydig bach ond hefyd yn ei weld e fel cyfle, efallai, i ddatblygu sgiliau newydd ymysg pobl ifanc, sy'n rili bwysig i Gymru. Rydyn ni eisiau cadw'r math yna o sgiliau. So, mae yna opsiynau i ddechrau meddwl am y tymor byr o ran sut ydyn ni'n gallu denu pobl ifanc i ddatblygu sgiliau sy'n mynd gyda'r sector, achos rydyn ni'n colli pobl sydd wedi bod yna ers chwarter canrif neu 30 mlynedd, weithiau. Ond eto, dydy hwn ddim yn rhywbeth rydyn ni wedi ei ystyried o'r blaen, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni ei ystyried e nawr. Ond eto, mae'r berthynas rhwng rhywun sy'n edrych ar ôl sgiliau a'n sector ni yn bwysig. So, byddwn ni'n gwahodd y Gweinidog newydd ar gyfer sgiliau a diwylliant yn fuan.

Gwych.

Is there anything else that Welsh Government could do, besides funding, to help you?

Wel, mae'r Llywodraeth wedi bod mewn cysylltiad yn ddiweddar, yn gofyn y cwestiwn i ni ac i gyrff hyd braich eraill, pa fath o gysylltiadau sydd gyda ni y tu allan i'n teulu, os liciwch chi, ein sector ni, a hefyd pa gysylltiadau sydd gennym ni mewn adrannau eraill o'r Llywodraeth y tu allan i'r uned noddi diwylliant. A'r syniad ydy bod swyddogion y Llywodraeth yn barod i'n cynorthwyo ni i ddatblygu cysylltiadau lle mae eisiau. Dwi'n croesawu'r cyfle yna, oherwydd rŷn ni nawr yn yr un portffolio â sgiliau, sydd yn gwestiwn tyngedfennol a sylfaenol i ni fel corff ac fel sector, a hefyd gallu cydgysylltu ag elfennau o'r diwydiannau creadigol a hefyd polisi technoleg gwybodaeth ddigidol, y sgôp sydd yna i ddatblygu deallusrwydd artiffisial—peryglon hynny, risgiau hynny, ond y cyfleoedd hynny a sut ŷn ni'n gallu bod—. Achos arbenigwyr data, arbenigwyr gwybodaeth ŷn ni, wedi'r cyfan, arbenigwyr digidol, felly dwi'n credu y gallwn ni ddod â llawer i'r bwrdd, pan fydd Llywodraeth Cymru eisiau symud ymlaen o ran arloesedd.

Ac mae cyfiawnder cymdeithasol wedi bod gyda ni, am gyfnod byr, ym mhortffolio'r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet. Efallai bod hynny wedi newid ychydig, ond mae eto yn allweddol i'r gwaith rŷn ni'n ei wneud i drio hybu amrywedd. Rydyn ni wedi sôn tipyn am ymgysylltu allanol a mynd allan i gymunedau, a dod â chymunedau atom ni, a dŷn ni ddim eisiau gweld colli'r momentwm hynny—rŷn ni eisiau hybu amrywedd.

Peth arall wrth gwrs yw addysg. Wrth gwrs mae yna adnoddau sydd gyda ni sydd yn cyd-fynd yn berffaith gyda'r Cwricwlwm i Gymru, gyda'r cymwysterau sydd yn newid o gwmpas 14 i 16, er enghraifft. Rŷn ni eisiau bod yn rhan o hwnna gydag adnoddau ar gyfer ysgolion, ond weithiau mae'n anodd i dimau bychain i arwain y ffordd o fewn bwystfil eithaf mawr fel y Llywodraeth, so, rŷn ni angen iddyn nhw, fel y mae Rhodri newydd ei ddweud, i'n gwerthu ni i adrannau eraill. A dwi'n meddwl y bydd hynny'n ein helpu ni, nid jest gydag incwm, ond gyda'n dylanwad a'n heffaith ni o ran ein gwaith ni.

Diolch am hwnna. Efallai byddwn ni'n gorfod rhedeg drosodd ychydig o funudau, efallai i chwarter i. A fyddai hynna'n iawn gyda chi os ydyn ni'n rhedeg yn hwyr? Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Laura.

If I may, Chair, just following on from what you just said, I was just wondering: do you think that schools use your resources enough at the moment?

We certainly changed our focus in terms of schools engagement post COVID and reopening. Rhodri mentioned the broadcast archive. That broadcast archive has got a whole education space attached to it. So, we've got a lot more schools coming in, which is great. But also, the staff are able to work with schools digitally. So, often, there's a doubling up, isn't there, Rhodri? Often, there's a school group present and there's another school group that is part of the same educational session, but down the line. And I think that has really helped us to add numbers to our educational outreach, but we need to—. If I had my way, I would basically say that I would want local authorities right across Wales to make sure that, literally, once a term there was a school bus from both secondary level and primary level being sent to the national library and we would cater for that, and we would give them stuff that was relevant to their location, to their cynefin, and I think it would really help significantly with education, both pre-11 and post-11. But at the moment, we don't have the money to do that, we don't have the capacity to do that, but we'd love to do that.

Well, it seems to be a very good aim and all about that joined-up thinking we keep talking about, isn't it? In terms of the Welsh Government's draft culture priorities that were consulted on over the summer, to what extent do you think those have helped cultural bodies to mitigate the impact of reduced funding?

Wel, dŷn ni wedi ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad yn croesawu’n fras yr holl ddatganiadau sydd yn y blaenoriaethau diwylliant. Dwi'n teimlo bod yna un man lle roeddem ni'n awyddus fel sefydliad i weld efallai ailedrych ar y darn hynny ac efallai ehangu rhywfaint ar yr uchelgais, sef yr ochr ddigidol. Roeddem yn teimlo bod hynny'n rhywbeth a allai fod yn gryfach yn y datganiad blaenoriaethau diwylliant. Ond, drwyddi draw, rŷn ni'n croesawu ac yn gefnogol dros ben fel sefydliad i’r egwyddorion o ran gwneud diwylliant yn fater mwy democrataidd, democrateiddio diwylliant i holl bobl Cymru a holl gymunedau Cymru: hygyrchedd diwylliant i bawb, y lles sydd yn dod o brofiadau diwylliannol, y sylw hefyd i'n cyfrifoldebau ni i fod yn gwarchod ac yn datblygu mynediad i’r casgliadau, a’r sgiliau sydd eu hangen yn y sector. Felly, drwyddi draw rŷn ni'n gefnogol iawn i'r datganiad.

Okay, thank you. We're going to now move on to the national contemporary art gallery, I think. So, what is the current status of the library's involvement in the national contemporary art gallery project, please?

Dŷn ni wedi bod yn bartneriaid pwysig gyda'r cyngor celfyddydau a hefyd Amgueddfa Cymru o'r cychwyn. Mae ein rôl ni yn ddeublyg, felly: dŷn ni wedi bod yn digido gweithiau celf—cyfanswm o ryw 7,000, dwi'n credu, o weithiau celf i fod ar gael ar gyfer mynd ar wefan yr oriel gelf newydd. Yn ogystal â darparu capasiti, rŷn ni wedi cael cyllid i allu cyflogi rhywun i fod yn gyfrifol am hwyluso benthyciadau, ac felly mae cefnogi’r model wedi gwasgaru hynny, gyda’r capasiti penodol hwnnw sydd yn hwyluso benthyciadau allan o gasgliadau’r llyfrgell yn rhan allweddol o'r prosiect o ran y llyfrgell.

Thank you. So, in terms of funding, where’s the money coming from? How much is coming from the national library? How much is coming directly from Welsh Government, please?

The resources to support the project come from Welsh Government.

Dŷn ni ddim yn cyfrannu. Rŷn ni'n rhan o’r prosiect, ond dŷn ni ddim yn cyfrannu unrhyw beth at y prosiect heblaw am amser staff.

Thanks.

Sori, gaf i jest—

Dwi'n meddwl roedd Heledd eisiau dod i mewn yn gyntaf ar hyn.

Yn gofyn yr un cwestiwn, siŵr o fod.

Ocê.

Faint ydy Llywodraeth Cymru yn cyfrannu?

Well, the value of the salary of the official who facilitates the loans, and then some tens of thousands of pounds for the digitalisation costs.

A gaf i ofyn, felly, bellach, o ran—? Rydych yn sôn am amser staff; yn amlwg, mi fyddwch chi wedi cyfrifo faint o amser staff rydych chi'n ymroi at hynny. Mae’n rhaid bod hwnna'n fuddsoddiad hefyd gennych chi.

Ydy. Mae yna un bach gyda ni sydd yn gofalu am arddangosfeydd, felly mae rhan o'u hamser nhw yn mynd i gefnogi trefniadau y benthyciadau fydd yn digwydd maes o law, ac mae rhan o'r capasiti sydd gyda ni ar gyfer digido unrhyw gyfrwng ac i reoli'r gwaith hwnnw, felly mae rhan o hynny yn gyfraniad mewn da.

Ond hefyd os ŷch chi'n meddwl am—. Ers i’r syniad godi ar gyfer yr oriel, wrth gwrs, mae ein ffocws ni gyda lot o'n celf ni wedi bod ar luniau cyfoes, so, er enghraifft, roedd gennym ni arddangosfa gyfoes yn y flwyddyn ddiwethaf. So, fel rhan o’r gwaith, rŷn ni wedi sifftio bach mwy i'r elfennau cyfoes, so mae'r staff hefyd yn ein helpu ni i fod mewn sefyllfa lle rŷn ni'n gallu cyfrannu yn ehangach i fod yn rhan o deulu’r oriel, er enghraifft.

A gaf i ofyn, felly: faint o bryder ydy o i chi, o ran cynaliadwyedd ariannol, i barhau â'r prosiect? Oherwydd yn amlwg, mi oedd yna bot o arian; rydych chi wedi cydnabod rôl hwnnw. Mae’r elfen fenthyciadau er mwyn gallu rhannu’r casgliadau yn ehangach yn elfen bwysig o hon. Ond eto, o beth rydyn ni'n ei ddeall, dydy'r arian ddim wedi’i warantu tu hwnt i hyd y prosiect. Felly, ydy o'n rhywbeth cynaliadwy ichi, gallu parhau heb arian ychwanegol, neu ydy o'n rhywbeth y byddech chi a phartneriaid yn awyddus i weld arian yn parhau i gael ei fuddsoddi, er mwyn gwireddu amcanion hirdymor?

Wel, mae hynny'n rhywbeth sydd yn destun trafod eithaf dwys ar y funud, i weld pa elfennau sydd yno all fod yn barhad gyda dim adnoddau ychwanegol ar gyfer parhad y prosiect, a pha lefel o ariannu posib fyddai’n gallu darparu lefelau gwahanol o barhad i'r prosiect. O ran ein cyfraniad ni, rŷn ni'n awyddus i barhau i gefnogi prosiect sydd yn ehangu mynediad i gasgliadau i bobl Cymru. Felly, os ŷn ni'n medru gweithio o fewn lefel o adnodd sydd yn cynnig y parhad i ni, mi wnawn ni'n gorau i addasu.

Ond mae’n hollbwysig i greu'r balans rhwng yr elfen ddigidol ac elfennau eraill. Wrth gwrs, mae yna sgyrsiau am adeiladau, ond o’n persbectif ni, achos nad ydyn ni yn y lle ble fydd yr oriel, o'n hochor ni, yn bendant, ein cyfraniad ni yw'r arddangosfeydd corfforol, ond hefyd o ran y digidol, a dyna lle ar y foment mae ein ffocws ni. Ond os oes unrhyw beth yn newid o ran y model, dyna ble byddem ni'n licio gweld mwy o incwm ar gyfer y llyfrgell yn bennaf, ochr yn ochr â’r elfen sy'n gallu ein cefnogi ni i roi arddangosfeydd bob chwech mis sydd yn waith cyfoes.

Diolch am hynny. Mae gan Laura gwestiwn, ac wedyn Alun.

Thank you for your answer. I do think the exact numbers are important. I think the financial contribution, even through staff, even just from you as a partner, is significant, especially as we’re looking long term. So, exact numbers would be helpful. If you don’t have them now, could we ask that you perhaps give them to the committee, and also the exact number of how much it’s costing the Welsh Government, please?

Yes. Okay, Alun.

Dwi'n dilyn yr un trywydd: mae yna ddau gost, ontife? Mae yna gost meddal dŷch chi yn buddsoddi yn y project, a dŷch chi’n mynd i gyflogi’r staff yma anyway, so dyw e ddim yn gost caled dŷch chi wedi cyfrannu eich hun, mae’n gost meddal, onid ydy? Ac yn dilyn o beth oedd Laura wedi ei ddweud, mae’n swnio i fi—dwi’n gwerthfawrogi ac yn cydnabod y cyfraniad mae’r llyfrgell eisiau ei wneud, gyda llaw, dwi ddim yn cwestiynu hynny ond—mae’n swnio i fi fel bod y gefnogaeth dŷch chi wedi ei chael gan Lywodraeth Cymru wedi bod yn eithaf pitw.

Wel, mae'r project wedi bod yn newydd i fi. O ran y llyfrgell, dwi’n credu bod gweithio ar y cyd i ehangu mynediad i gasgliadau—

Ie, ie. Cyfraniad Llywodaeth Cymru dwi'n sôn amdano.

Cofia dyw'r arian o ran y cydlynu ddim yn mynd atom ni; mae’n mynd at gorff arall.

Ie, ie. Dwi'n sôn am gyfraniad Llywodraeth Cymru atoch chi, ac mae’n swnio i fi, o’r ymateb yn gynharach, fod yr arian basically wedi cyflogi aelod o staff.

Mae'n fychan iawn.

Ydy.

Wel, dyw hynny ddim yn lot, nag yw e? Dyw e ddim yn lot o gyfraniad, nag yw e?

Mae e'n gyfraniad sydd wedi golygu ein bod ni'n gallu chwarae rhan iawn yn y prosiect, ac os y model gwasgaredig—

Ond os wyt ti'n sefydlu—

—yw'r ffordd ymlaen, os ŷn ni’n medru cynnal y capasiti yna ar gyfer parhau i gynorthwyo project—

Un aelod o staff.

—sydd yn mynd i fod yn bwysig i 10 oriel arall, hynny yw, byddwn ni'n teimlo ein bod ni wedi gallu chwarae'n rhan.

Gaf i ofyn, felly, fyddech chi’n awyddus bod buddsoddiad y Llywodraeth yn parhau er mwyn i’r gwaith yma barhau, neu ydych chi’n hyderus y byddech chi’n gallu parhau i gyfrannu yn y modd ydych chi o fewn yr adnoddau sydd gennych chi?

Wel, nawr rydym ni yn y maes arall. Nawr rydym ni wedi cyrraedd disgwyliadau os nad oes unrhyw gyfraniad, pa mor fychan yw e, ddim yna. Dydyn ni ddim eisiau stopio rhoi celf cyfoes o flaen y cyhoedd.

Na, dwi'n deall.

Ond byddwn ni angen edrych ar faint o waith dŷn ni’n gallu ei wneud at y nod yma os oes toriadau eraill, ond os nad oes dim byd yn dod—. A chofia ein bod ni’n gweithio mewn partneriaeth yma. Dyw hwn ddim ein project ni. So, hefyd mae’n dibynnu ar ble mae partneriaid eraill eisiau gyrru ymlaen gyda’r project, os yw’r project yn newid cyfeiriad, wrth gwrs.

Efallai mai cwestiwn i’r partneriaeth ydy o, beth ydy’r dasg i Lywodraeth Cymru.

Byddwn ni'n cario ymlaen i drio gweithio mewn partneriaeth gyda’r ddau gorff arall ar y project yma—

Does neb yn cwestiynu—[Anghlywadwy.]

Na, na, ond beth rydyn ni’n trio ei ddeall ydy beth ydy’r sefyllfa ariannol a pha fuddsoddiad fyddech chi ei angen er mwyn parhau efo hynny. Felly, trio helpu sefyllfa y llyfrgell—

Wel, dydy hwn ddim yn rhywbeth rydym ni wedi ei wneud fel exercise costio, ond efallai—. Wel, rydych chi wedi gofyn y cwestiwn, felly byddwn ni’n ei wneud e, ar ein cyfer ni a chithau.

That would be great.

Gaf i ofyn un cwestiwn arall? Yn 2022, mi oedd y llyfrgell yn ystyried cynnig ar gyfer oriel gelf genedlaethol ac oriel ffotograffiaeth genedlaethol, yn amlwg, rhywbeth costus arall, ond gaf i ofyn beth ydy statws hynny? Ble mae o o fewn eich cynlluniau chi ar y funud?

Dyw e ddim yn uchel ar y rhestr blaenoriaethau ar y funud. Mae diogelwch sylfaenol yr adeilad wedi dod i frig y rhestr blaenoriaethau. Mae’r prosiectau datgarboneiddio hefyd yn ymrwymiad, dwi’n credu, tymor hir i ni i fod. Ond mae yna ddarnau eraill o waith hefyd yn edrych ar sut rŷn ni’n gallu datblygu’r defnydd o’r cyfleusterau o fewn yr adeilad heb edrych y tu allan ac adeiladu unrhyw beth ychwanegol. Ond hwyrach, maes o law, fe fydd cynlluniau gyda ni, a dwi’n gobeithio bydd y cynllun strategol yn helpu i roi cyfeiriad i hynny o ran beth sydd yn bwysig nid yn unig sut mae’r llyfrgell eisiau datblygu efo’r sefydliad, ond y cyfraniad rŷn ni’n ei wneud o ran sgiliau ac arbenigedd mewn nifer o feysydd, ac yn sôn yn benodol am ddigidol a chadwraeth, dwi’n credu. Felly y math yna o gyfeiriad dwi’n rhagweld yn un trywydd.

Dwi'n meddwl yn bendant mai persbectif y bwrdd yw ein bod ni eisiau gweld ein casgliadau ni mas gyda’r cyhoedd, nid jest yna, rwyt ti’n gallu clicio arno fe a rhoi rhyw enw i mewn ac rwyt ti’n cael eu lluniau nhw. Na, mae’n bwysig hefyd fod gwybodaeth o’u cwmpas nhw, so mae yna naratif o’u cwmpas nhw. Mae hyn i gyd, wrth gwrs, yn costio amser pobl ac adnoddau. Byddwn i'n licio, os oes unrhyw newid cyfeiriad, i hwn fod yn bendant rhan o unrhyw fuddsoddiad sy'n dod atom ni, achos mae'n helpu gyda'n nod ni o agor ein casgliadau ni mas a digideiddio mwy o'n casgliadau ni—yn bendant y gwaith celf sydd gyda ni.

Gwych.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Wel, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am fod yn hyblyg gyda'r amser hefyd. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi i chi wirio ei fod yn gofnod teg. Efallai bydd yna ambell i gwestiwn ychwanegol byddwn ni eisiau eu gofyn yn ysgrifenedig nad ŷm ni wedi cael cyfle i fynd ar eu hôl nhw. Dŷch chi hefyd wedi addo y byddwch chi'n anfon mwy o wybodaeth atom ni hefyd. Felly, gaf i ddiolch i chi, unwaith eto, am eich tystiolaeth y bore yma? Dŷn ni wir wedi'i gwerthfawrogi. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch.

Diolch yn fawr.

Aelodau, fe wnawn ni nawr barhau yn breifat, a fe wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat cyn cario ymlaen.

Prynhawn da. Croeso nôl i'n gwylwyr ni. Dŷn ni'n symud at eitem 8.

Cyn symud ymlaen, mae gen i eitem weithrefnol fer. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42, rwy'n cynnig bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitem 1 o’r cyfarfod sydd wedi ei drefnu ar gyfer 9 Hydref 2024. Ydy'r Aelodau'n fodlon i ni wneud hynny? Iawn, ôce.

Felly, hoffwn i groesawu Dafydd Rhys i'n pwyllgor ni'r prynhawn yma. Dŷn ni, eto, yn edrych ar effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon. Mae hon yn sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda Chyngor Celfyddydau Cymru. Mi wnaf ofyn i Dafydd Rhys gyflwyno ei hun ar gyfer y record.

Good afternoon. I'm Dafydd Rhys. I'm the chief executive officer of the Arts Council of Wales.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ydych chi'n hapus i ni fynd yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau?

Ydw.

We have heard for several years now, because of the effects of COVID first of all, and, then, because of the effects of financial pressures, that many arts venues either had closed or were facing a risk of closure, so what assessment have you made about how many of them are facing that risk within, maybe, the next year?

Well, that's a very good question and a very timely question too. There are a number of centres and venues facing significant financial challenges at the moment. Some of them, of course, are known to the public. It's a combination, I would say, of a lack of adequate funding, perhaps, from us as an arts council, but, more than that, it's a far larger problem, in the sense that local authorities, which are responsible for a number of these venues, are facing significant financial challenges themselves. And also, the further development at the moment is our universities. Our universities are also facing challenges; some of them are having to find £15 million in-year savings, and some more than that even. And those that have their own art centres as part of their campuses, that places pressures on those particular venues too. One thing I would say that also has become clear to me, certainly in discussions with local authorities, is a number of them on a personal level say that they don't want to have to face the decisions to close art centres and venues, but, because it isn't a statutory responsibility, it's an easy place in some ways or a swift way to try to balance the books, truth be told.

Diolch am hwnna. A dŷn ni'n gwybod bod rhai gwledydd eraill, fel Iwerddon—. Mae e wedi dod yn gyfrifoldeb statudol. Ydych chi yn meddwl bod lle i Gymru edrych ar rywbeth tebyg er mwyn gwarantu diogelwch—wel, dyfodol—y sefydliadau hyn?

Mae'r pwnc yna wedi codi mewn amryw o sesiynau cyhoeddus dwi wedi'u cael yn y chwe mis diwethaf. O ran Deddf llesiant y dyfodol, mae diwylliant yn un o'r pedwar conglfeini yn fanna, ond does yna ddim cyfrifoldebau statudol i gael iddi. Felly, byddwn i'n annog y pwyllgor yma i ystyried hynna. Mae'n sicr y bydden ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau am weld hynna'n digwydd.

Diolch am hynna. Mae hynna'n glir iawn. Fe wnawn ni symud at Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. Eisiau mynd i mewn i'r sefyllfa o ran arian ydyn ni. Yn amlwg, mi gawsoch chi gyhoeddiad dros yr haf o ran peth arian ychwanegol, a dwi wedi gweld eich bod chi'n hysbysebu rŵan o ran sut fydd hwnna'n mynd rhagddo. Efallai y byddai'n fuddiol gwybod pa effaith mae hynny'n ei chael, a hefyd o ran ei fod o'n dod yng nghanol blwyddyn yn hytrach na'i rhoi ar y dechrau. Hefyd, jest o ran yr effaith pe byddai cyngor y celfyddydau yn derbyn naill ai'r un faint o incwm eleni, neu yn y flwyddyn ariannol nesaf, neu ostyngiad, beth fyddech chi'n credu fyddai effaith hynny?

Mae hwnna'n gwestiwn eithaf mawr—

Ydy. [Chwerthin.]

—ac fe wnaf i drial ei ateb e mewn sawl ffordd. O ran ni fel corff, fel cyngor y celfyddydau, fe gawson ni doriad o 10.5 y cant, fel sy'n wybyddus i bawb. Roedd hwnna ar 19 Rhagfyr y llynedd. Bu'n rhaid i ni fynd i mewn i gyfnod o ddiswyddo gwirfoddol a gorfodol, mewn cydweithrediad â'r undebau. Roedd yn rhaid inni hefyd ailbroffilio ein cyllideb ni.

Un o'r pethau roeddwn i a'r cyngor yn frwd iawn i drial gwarchod oedd y cynigion amodol oedd wedi cael eu rhoi i'r sector yn y cytundebau amlflwyddyn, Ac felly, fel polisi, fel benderfynon ni beidio â throsglwyddo'r 10.5 y cant yna i'r sector yn gyfan gwbl, ond bu'n rhaid inni drosglwyddo 2.5 y cant. Felly, i ni fel corff, fe gollon ni tua 10, 13, efallai, o aelodau o staff. Roedden ni'n gorfod mynd i mewn i broses o ailstrwythuro. Roedd yn rhaid i bopeth ddigwydd yn gyflym iawn. Ac un o'r rhesymau roedd yn rhaid i fe ddigwydd yn gyflym oedd bod y Llywodraeth, oedd yn cynnig cefnogaeth ariannol i ganiatáu i hyn ddigwydd, yn mynnu ar un pwynt fod yn rhaid i fe ddigwydd cyn diwedd y flwyddyn ariannol. Ond, yng nghanol y broses, fe laciwyd hynny, ac roedd hwnna'n dda o beth, oherwydd roedd e'n golygu ein bod ni, a chyrff eraill oedd yn yr un sefyllfa, yn gallu ymestyn rhai dyddiadau cau, ac yn y blaen.

O ran yr adolygiad buddsoddiad, dim ond 13 corff gafodd yr hyn roedden nhw'n gofyn amdano yn eu ceisiadau gwreiddiol. Roedd tua 63 yn cael beth rôn i'n galw'n standstill, fwy neu lai—yr un peth—ac yn y bôn, oherwydd y costau cynyddol, roedd yn doriad, i bob pwrpas, mewn termau real. Ond wedyn, gyda'r 2.5 y cant yma'n cael ei drosglwyddo, roedd hwnna hefyd yn effeithio arnyn nhw.

Felly, petai yna fwy o doriad i gyngor y celfyddydau a'r grant, y peth arall i atgoffa'r pwyllgor ohono yw bod 92 y cant o'n cyllid ni i gyd yn cael ei drosglwyddo i mewn i'r sector, mewn rhyw ffordd neu'i gilydd. Felly, rŷn ni'n gorff bach; rŷn ni'n gorff sydd yn rhyddhau ac yn rhannu'r incwm rŷn ni'n ei gael ledled Cymru. Pe baem ni'n cael toriad ychwanegol—ac mae hwn yn rhywbeth rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei ystyried ac yn edrych arno yn fewnol—fe fyddai'n golygu y byddai'n rhaid inni ailystyried faint rŷn ni'n gallu ei gyflawni, faint rŷn ni'n gallu ei gyflawni o ran y llythyr remit gan y Llywodraeth. A bydden ni'n gofyn am drafodaethau eithaf gonest ac agored gyda'r Llywodraeth yn hynny o beth.

Ein prif waith ni, a'n priod waith ni, yw datblygu'r celfyddydau yng Nghymru, ac mae hwnna'n rhywbeth rŷn ni'n ei gymryd yn gyfan gwbl o ddifrif, ond dim ond hyn a hyn y gall rhywun ei wneud, dwi'n meddwl. Oherwydd, yn y cytundeb remit, mae yna bob math o gyfrifoldebau'n cael eu rhoi arnom ni, ac mae rhai, mewn trafodaethau gyda Gweinidogion, yn fwy blaenllaw na'i gilydd, ond dyna rywbeth y byddai'n rhaid inni ei ystyried fel corff. A beth sy'n ddiddorol i fi yn fanna, er bod llai o staff, yw bod trial cael y staff i wneud llai yn rhywbeth sydd ddim yn dod yn reddfol, oherwydd mae'r staff mor ymroddedig i'r celfyddydau. Ond hyd yn oed ar hyn o bryd rŷn ni'n trial dweud, 'Wel, dydy hwnna ddim yn flaenoriaeth; mae'n rhaid inni ganolbwyntio ar feysydd eraill.' Felly, o ran toriad, byddai toriad wedyn i ni fel corff yn golygu efallai lai o swyddi, ac felly lai o hyblygrwydd i ddelifro pob dim rŷn ni'n ei ddelifro ar hyn o bryd.

Diolch. Efallai y byddai'n fuddiol i wahaniaethu rhwng y cyllid i chi fel cyngor a hefyd yr arian rydych chi'n ei ddosrannu. Os cawn ni edrych yn benodol arnoch chi fel cyngor celfyddydau rŵan, rydych chi'n sôn am eich rôl o ran datblygu'r celfyddydau yng Nghymru. Deg i 13 aelod o staff—mae hwnna'n ostyngiad sylweddol mewn tîm bach iawn. Beth ydy'ch pryderon chi ynglŷn ag effaith hynny? Mae'n gwestiwn y gwnes i ei ofyn i'r llyfrgell hefyd—yr effaith ar forâl staff. Sut ydych chi'n mesur hynny? Ac o ran y gefnogaeth rydych chi'n gallu ei darparu i'r sector ledled Cymru, faint mae hynny wedi'i gyfyngu oherwydd y toriadau rydych chi wedi gorfod eu gwneud o ran y tîm bach oedd gennych chi yn barod? Faint o dîm ydych chi rŵan? Fe wnaethon ni glywed bod yna 10 y cant o ostyngiad gan y llyfrgell. Faint o ostyngiad sydd wedi bod i'ch tîm?

Rhywbeth tebyg. Mi oeddem ni â rhywbeth fel 91 neu 92 o aelodau o staff. Roedd rhai yng Nghaerdydd, rhai yn y gogledd a rhai yn y gorllewin. Mae swyddfeydd gyda ni ym Mae Colwyn ac yng Nghaerfyrddin, ac rydyn wedi colli rhyw 13, so rydyn ni lawr tua 80, o gwmpas fanna. Un o'r pethau rydyn ni wedi gorfod ei wneud, wrth gwrs, yw bod peth o'n gwaith ni, yn sicr ym maes iechyd, yn cael ei ariannu gan arian y loteri, ac mae yna gyfyngiadau amser ar arian y Llywodraeth sydd yn cefnogi hynny. Felly, mae yna nifer ar fixed term, fel petai—dŷn nhw ddim yn aelodau o staff. Ond rŷn ni o gwmpas tua 80 o bobl, byddwn i'n dweud.

Felly, gostyngiad sylweddol.

Mae e'n ostyngiad sylweddol. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod edrych ar y ffordd rŷn ni'n cyfathrebu gyda'r sector. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod edrych ar y ffordd rŷn ni'n gweithio gyda'r sector. Rŷn ni wedi, yn y ddau fis diwethaf, llwyddo nawr i ailrannu gwaith y lead officers, fel rŷn ni'n eu galw nhw, sydd yn ymwneud â'r cwmnïoedd aml-flwyddyn. Felly, mae hwnna wedi'i wneud. Mae hi'n broses interim, yn yr ystyr rŷn ni'n ei gwneud hi am y chwe mis nesaf i asesu sut mae'n mynd i weithio. Rŷn ni'n onest gyda'r sector yn yr ystyr allwn ni ddim rhoi'r un gwasanaeth yr oeddem ni'n ei roi yn y gorffennol o ran cynnig cyngor neu fod ar gael 24 awr y dydd i gynghori. Rŷn ni'n gwneud ein gorau i ddiwallu hynny.

Rŷn ni wedi gorfod torri hefyd ar bethau fel, er enghraifft, Collectorplan, y system gasglu. Roedd e'n hen ffasiwn; roedd hi'n dal yn broses bapur. Dydy e ddim yn dod i ben; mae'n dod i ben fel mae e, ond rŷn ni'n mynd i'w gyfuno gydag Own Art. Bydd e'n galluogi'r cyhoedd i beidio teimlo unrhyw wahaniaeth, mewn ffordd, ond ei fod e'n gynllun Prydeinig yn hytrach na'n cynllun ni. Mae hwnna'n arbed gwaith i staff. Rŷn ni wedi gorfod torri ar bethau fel Cymru yn Fenis, er enghraifft. Roedd hwnna'n un peth rŷn ni wedi gorfod peidio blaenoriaethu. Felly, rhwng trial torri lawr ar rai o ddisgwyliadau'r staff a hefyd y sector, a hefyd trial arallgyfeirio, rŷm ni, dwi'n meddwl, ar hyn o bryd yn ymdopi.

Rŷm ni hefyd, mae'n deg i mi ddweud, wedi llwyddo i ddod â rhai swyddi ychwanegol i fewn ar lefel is. Roedd hwnna'n rhan o'r ailstrwythuro fel roeddem ni'n edrych ar anghenion y busnes. Felly, rŷm ni'n dod mewn â swyddog hygyrchedd. Un peth rŷm ni wedi'i sylweddoli yw bod yna alw mawr gan y sector am help ac am gyngor ar faterion hygyrchedd ac anabledd, felly rŷm ni'n dod mewn â swyddog hygyrchedd; bydd hwnna'n cael ei hysbysebu yn yr wythnosau nesaf. Rŷm ni hefyd yn dod â help i fewn, yn weinyddol yn bennaf, ar ochr materion busnes, oherwydd mae hwnna'n rhywbeth hollbwysig i ni. Mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau bod gwariant arian cyhoeddus yn mynd i'w briod le ac am y rhesymau cywir, felly mae'n rhaid i ni warchod hwnna. Felly, mae yna gryfhau mewn ambell i le, ond mae yna—beth fuaswn i'n dweud—newid hefyd mewn llefydd eraill.

Os caf i, rŷch chi'n dweud eich bod chi'n ymdopi, ond ydy hynna'n gynaliadwy?

Dyna'r pwynt, onid e? Mae yna newid sylweddol yn dod i ni fel cyngor. Rŷm ni wedi newid yr uwch-dîm rheoli. Mae yna ddau newydd yn dechrau yn yr hydref, sef Catryn Ramasut fel cyfarwyddwr celfyddydau, a Lorna Virgo fel pennaeth materion busnes, neu gyfarwyddwr busnes. Fel rhan o edrych ymlaen i'r flwyddyn nesaf, yn sicr, rŷm ni'n mynd i edrych ar yr holl ffordd rŷm ni'n rheoli ein grantiau, ac yn y blaen.

O ran morâl staff, sut ydych chi'n mesur hynny? Ydych chi'n gwneud arolwg staff blynyddol?

Mae yna arolwg staff ar fin mynd allan, ar 4 Hydref, dwi'n meddwl. Mae yna arolwg staff yn mynd allan. Mae e'n rhan bwysig o'n cofrestr risg ni—morâl y staff a staff yn medru ymdopi gyda'r gwaith. Rŷm ni hefyd yn cynnig, ac mewn trafodaethau gyda'r undeb, edrych i weld a allwn ni gynnig rywfaint o amser o ran llesiant i staff. Mae yna grŵp llesiant staff gyda ni, felly rŷn ni'n trafod hwnna. Mae staff yn poeni am bwysau gwaith—dwi'n meddwl mai hwnna yw'r prif beth mae pobl yn poeni amdano—a hefyd yn poeni am y sector. Pan fydd rhywun yn derbyn galwadau yn aml neu e-byst sydd yn cyfeirio at broblemau, mae e'n gallu cael effaith ar forâl ac ar iechyd meddwl, a mae hwnna'n rhywbeth rŷm ni'n ymwybodol iawn ohono fe.

Mae yna gyfarfodydd staff wythnosol wedi bod gyda ni. Roedd e'n sicr yn bwysig ar adeg y cyfnod ailstrwythuro, ond nawr mae gennym ni bennaeth comms newydd wedi dechrau, Gwen Siôn, ac rŷn ni'n edrych ar ffyrdd ac yn cydweithio gyda staff i weld sut gallwn ni newid ein cyfathrebu mewnol. Mae hwnna mor bwysig, fel ein bod ni'n cael cyfle i fesur sut mae staff yn teimlo, a hefyd i ni gael esbonio ac i roi gwybodaeth i staff yn gyson am yr hyn sy'n digwydd.

Diolch.

Diolch am hwnna. Mae gen i geisiadau am gwestiynau atodol gan Laura a gan Carolyn. Mi wnaf i fynd at Laura yn gyntaf.

Thank you, Chair. I'll just take this off; sorry, it was echoing. Of course, I concur with everything my colleague's just said—we all, naturally, have these concerns about the effect the Welsh Government funding cuts are going to have on the arts, particularly in key venues and organisations that add extraordinary value to Wales and communities across Wales. You said yourself just now that it's so important that the right funding goes to the right places—of course, I agree with that—and I'm sure, Mr Rhys, that if you had a bigger budget and all the money that you could have, you would give Welsh National Opera more money, wouldn't you?

Well, Welsh National Opera is a really interesting and well-publicised situation. I think I have to be quite sensitive in my comments in this committee, because I don't want to do anything that could undermine the management and the quite intricate negotiations with the unions. I have had constant discussions with the Welsh National Opera and with Arts Council England. We did, actually, ACE and ourselves as ACW, assist the Welsh National Opera. We co-funded a report; we funded Caroline Felton's report, to go in to help the Welsh National Opera, to do what they could in terms of changing the organisation.

The big challenge for them is changing from a £16-million turnover organisation to a £12-million. It's a combination of public money and income and commercial money. Our hope and our desire is to see a successful national opera company in Wales that not only serves the people of Cardiff but the whole of Wales. And actually, I think it should be noted that some of the work they do in the community and in arts and health, for example, is quite exemplary, and that came out in the report that Caroline Felton did. So, we hope that the negotiation and we hope that the discussions will prove beneficial.

On that subject, though—because I'm aware I didn't perhaps answer Heledd's question completely on the jobs—in terms of the recent £1.5 million, the Welsh National Opera do qualify to come in for that, if they wish to do so, in terms of some support. So, we'll wait and see; it hasn't come in as yet.

And—forgive me for interrupting—that's the operational resilience fund.

Yes, the £1.5 million that was announced three weeks ago, a month ago.

Diolch.

Of course, yes, because if you had the funding, of course you'd want to give more money to save those staff and save the jobs of the WNO, wouldn't you? So, are you confident, Mr Rhys, that all the projects that are currently funded by the arts council offer Wales good value for money?

I think they do, yes. I think that there's an old-fashioned approach to the arts sometimes in Wales: one forgets that our contribution to health is quite extraordinary, I think. We are seen as a leading organisation in international terms in what we do in arts and health. I think I've referred, in this committee previously, to the Lancet article that's about nine months old now, I think, that Wales is seen as leading, but somehow, when we discuss funding for the arts, we forget that we should probably receive some money from health. What we do in creative learning in the schools is quite extraordinary, I think. And the one thing I would ask in terms of the way we think about funding for the arts—and I would ask the Welsh Government to give this more consideration—is rather than consider the arts council as coming from the culture pot alone, to look across Government, to see what we can contribute in terms of whether we can have some formal funding from health, formal funding from education, formal funding also from international relations. We tend to think of the arts as a silo that comes out of the culture pot.

So, you think all your projects are good value for money. I did have a look through, before this committee, on your Arts Council of Wales website, which was great, but I did come across something that—. I was just wondering, would it be possible, Chair, if Mr Rhys could read this out? It's just from the arts council website, and then perhaps we could discuss it.

Would you be happy to do that?

It depends what it is; I have no idea what it is.

There you go. Just the highlighted bit.

It's the Edinburgh fringe 2024. Okay.

'A high-camp, chaotic drag cabaret written and performed by iconic Welsh mother and daughter drag-duo Polly Amorous and Esther Parade. Join Polly and Esther as they navigate chosen family, adolescence and villainous low-fat yogurt-based probiotic gut-health brands—all whilst serving intergenerational c*nt! A celebration of self-expression, a joyfully queer blend of drag, musical theatre and cabaret, and a tale of finding family in unlikely places.

'"I'd give this six stars if I was a reviewer!"'

Chair, if I may: Mr Rhys, as you saw, paused on one of the words and didn't say the full word, and I can understand why, because as a woman, when I read that on the arts council's website, I found that quite offensive, and disappointing to see that on there. And this is where public money is going. I would probably suggest that if that word was difficult to say in a committee, I don't think, perhaps, it's appropriate for a website.

If we could try and bring the questioning into the remit of what we're looking at this afternoon.

Yes, absolutely, it is, though, because it's where that value for money is coming from. Are we giving the money to the right things when we've got projects like this, which are—? You can say what you like about it, but when words like that are used, I'm not sure that's really the projection what Wales wants to put over to the world. When you compare that to the Welsh National Opera, which is offering such a good value for money, they're offering so much in terms of their work, they're highly skilled, et cetera. I'm just not sure that all projects that, perhaps, you're funding are that value for money, are appropriate, and it may just be worth maybe looking into them and seeing if that money could be redistributed.

I think that point has been made. I think that we can move on from that.

I'd just like to make one point, though, in terms of the Welsh National Opera. I haven't seen this particular project that you refer to, personally, so I'm not going to comment on the content of that. It was in Edinburgh. When we choose projects to go to Edinburgh, there's an independent group and body that come to choose. People pitch for it and choose, and therefore it was felt that it was appropriate. But I haven't seen it, so I won't answer any more. The one thing I will say about the Welsh National Opera, though, is that you need to consider our blend of funding. The Welsh National Opera is the highest supported organisation that we fund. So, when you consider our blend of funding, I think that's where you've got to consider value for money as well.

That's important too, yes.

Diolch. Carolyn, roedd gennych chi gwestiynau atodol.

Just regarding procedure, I normally would think that anything that would be handed out would be shared with you first, but we will check that later, maybe. Thank you.

It's on the arts council website, but I'm willing to show you. There's a copy here if you want to see it.

Okay, if we could move on.

We discussed earlier that the UK has one of the lowest spending on culture and the arts amongst EU nations, and we can't access Creative Europe funding either at the moment. So, as a committee, we want to try and follow that up as well. That's really important, isn't it? Because, like you say, Wales is leading in international terms, and extremely good value for money, I think, then in the funding that we receive here.

We've been doing a lot of work. We hosted On the Move—I don't know how many of you were aware—on artist mobilty in Europe, in Caernarfon, in Galeri. It must be six months ago now. I'm trying to remember when it was. But we hosted that, which was an international conference to look at this issue about artists and companies' flexibility in moving, post Brexit, in Europe. We've also been in discussion with the Labour Government in Westminster, in particular with Nick Thomas-Symonds, the Torfaen MP, I think, in terms of his brief in terms of European relations. I know that they are keen to look at a single visa entry, possibly, but there's a lot of work to do on that. But that is something that we do have a concern about. Because we also host Infopoint, which is the organisation—. We host it on behalf of the other arts councils of the UK, in terms of helping artists from around the world coming into Wales, but also helping artists from Wales to go into Europe and beyond. So, yes, that is a concern, but we are actively advocating that and trying to engage not only with Government here, but also with Government in Westminster.

That's really good to hear. Thank you. I wanted to just come in with my later question now, because it's appropriate in terms of what Heledd was saying about staff under pressure. So, if I could just ask you this. It was just responding to the committee's consultation:

'There is a sense within the arts sector that the Arts Council are under pressure, and should not be disturbed unless absolutely necessary.'

So, I just wanted to ask you: is that a fair description? That was then leading on to to what extent are funding reductions for the arts council limiting its ability to function as an organisation.

Probably linking in to what Heledd was asking about morale as well.

It's overall morale. I guess, if people are trying to communicate with concerns, then it can be really difficult. So, I guess that's what this relates to.

I think, just to add to what I've already said in response to Heledd, we have to change as an organisation in how we work. And we’re doing that, we’re doing that gradually. But I also think that—. We had a simple discussion. Our grants information line is open 9 to 5 every day, so people can get in touch with the arts council between 9 and 5 every day. But we were discussing whether we can sustain that, and we are looking at actually changing it to 10 until 4, which might not seem much of a change, but in organisational and operational ways, it can help us as an organisation. But it does mean, though, that we will not be as available as we used to be.

So, we do have to change. I think we’ve got a very good relationship with the sector. There are organisations like Creu Cymru that we talk to regularly, and there is sympathy on both sides, I think, in terms of our monitoring and delivery from Creu Cymru members, and Creu Cymru actually monitoring the way we respond as well. So, I think, working together, we can improve. I’m sympathetic to it, but we need a sense of reality here in terms of what the cuts actually mean as well.

Okay, thank you.

Laura, and then Heledd.

I’m just wondering what assessment you've made of the health of classical music and opera in Wales, given the cuts, of course, to the Welsh National Opera and Mid Wales Opera, the current closure of St David’s Hall in Cardiff, and the closure of the Young RWCMD programme. Thank you.

I have regular meeting with the Musicians' Union. I’ve had regular meetings with Helena Gaunt from the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama. We don’t fund that, of course. That’s not our responsibility to fund, as with St David’s Hall. We don’t actually fund St David’s Hall, although we do fund some community work that is dependent on that organisation. The same with BBC Cardiff Singer of the World, which has been postponed or pushed forward for a year. We fund, with BBC Cardiff Singer of the World, some community work around that event.

In terms of an assessment, we did do an impact assessment on the effects of the investment review. We also, as part of that then, introduced some strategic interventions, and part of that was in traditional music—not in classical music at that point in time—and that work is ongoing. And we are aware of the pressures, in particular, in that field. But also, we do support organisations like Sinfonia Cymru, OPRA Cymru, et cetera, et cetera. So, it’s not a one-size-fits-all, but we did have to make some really difficult decisions during our investment review.

Thank you.

Okay. Heledd.

Diolch. Os caf i jest fynd â ni gam yn ôl i rai o’r pethau rydych chi wedi sôn amdanynt. Roeddech chi’n sôn yn gynharach ynglŷn â gostyngiadau i raglenni o ran iechyd ac ati, a lle ddylai’r cyllid ddod. Mae hon yn drafodaeth sydd yn mynd ers Deddf cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, ond, eto, mae o i weld nad ydyn ni ddim pellach ymlaen. Ydy hwnna’n rhywbeth rydych chi eisiau ei weld yn cael—mae gennym ni Weinidog newydd rŵan, er enghraifft—ei flaenoriaethu a dod i’r afael â fo, neu ydych chi’n poeni bod y toriadau yma’n golygu bod rhai o’r pethau gwych sy’n cael eu gwneud o ran y sector hwn, o ran iechyd, iechyd meddwl, addysg ac ati, yn mynd ar goll oherwydd y toriadau rydyn ni’n eu gweld?

Dwi’n meddwl mai un o beryglon mawr y toriadau yw y bydd rhai o’r pethau sydd efallai’n cael eu gweld fel ymylol, ond sydd mor bwysig i weithgaredd—. Er enghraifft, os oes rhywun yn rhedeg canolfan, yn gwneud gwaith yn y gymuned, ond, o ran cyllid, ac o ran iechyd busnes y ganolfan, beth sy’n bwysig yw cael pobl i ddod mewn i weld sioeau, wel mae yna beryg bydd y gwaith cymunedol yna efallai yn cael ei weld fel rhywbeth fydd yn anfforddiadwy. A dyna ble dwi yn poeni. Bydd yna impact yn natur yr hyn sydd yn cael ei gynnig, a rhai o’r prosiectau yna fydd y cyntaf i fynd ar goll, o bosib. Dwi’n meddwl ei bod hi'n werth inni gael y drafodaeth yna o ran Deddf cenedlaethau’r dyfodol, oherwydd os ydyn ni o ddifri am gefnogi diwylliant, mae’n rhaid inni, felly, ei ariannu, a ffeindio modd, a ffeindio lefel, i'w ariannu yn deg, yn fy marn i.

Ydych chi yn pryderu, o ran cyfranogiad, bod yna risg ei bod hi'n mynd yn llai cynhwysol? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae Cymru wedi bod yn fodel i nifer o wledydd eraill yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf o ran cyfranogiad ac ymestyn allan. Ydych chi'n poeni bod yna risg bod diwylliant yn mynd i fynd yn fwy elitaidd unwaith eto, a bod i'r lleiafrif sy'n gallu ei fforddio, yn hytrach nac i'r rheini lle rydyn ni wedi trio sicrhau bod diwylliant i bawb, megis Raymond Williams?

Wel, mae yna risg. Mae'n naturiol bod yna risg yr aiff e'n elitaidd, yn yr ystyr y bydd yna bwysau ychwanegol ar godi prisiau tocynnau, er mwyn gwneud pethau yn fforddiadwy, er mwyn rhoi pethau yn eu blaen. Rŷn ni'n gwybod, o siarad â gwahanol ganolfannau, fod pobl yn fwy dewisol bellach yn faint maen nhw'n gwario a sut maen nhw'n gwario. Beth sydd hefyd yn digwydd yw bod pobl eisiau gwybod yn union beth maen nhw'n mynd i gael am eu harian ac eisiau sicrwydd llwyr fod yr hyn maen nhw'n ei gael yn mynd i fod yn werth am arian. Beth mae'n ei olygu, wedyn, yw bod canolfannau yn mynd yn fwy diogel o ran natur y gwaith, ac efallai bydd llai o gyfleoedd i ysgrifenwyr newydd, a llai o gyfleoedd i waith newydd, boed yn gerddoriaeth glasurol neu boed yn farddoniaeth neu beth bynnag, oherwydd mae'n bwysig cael y bobl yna drwy'r drws ac i gael cynulleidfaoedd mawr. Beth sydd yn digwydd yw'r margins—beth sy'n cael ei wasgu ar y margins—a dwi yn poeni bydd y gwaith cyfranogol yna, a'r gwaith da rŷn ni wedi'i wneud yn y blynyddoedd diwethaf, yn cael ei wasgu. Gwnawn ni ein gorau glas i sicrhau ei fod e ddim, o ran ein gwariant ni fel cyngor celfyddydau, ond fe fydd e'n anodd. Bydd pob elfen o'n gwariant ni, dwi'n meddwl, yn cael ei gwasgu.

Yn amlwg, nôl ym mis Mai eleni, mi fuoch chi'n eithaf di-flewyn-ar-dafod efo Beti a'i Phobl. Er enghraifft, roeddech chi'n galw am sgwrs genedlaethol. Roeddech chi'n pwysleisio difrifoldeb y sefyllfa. Oes yna rywun wedi gwrando ar y ble yna? Ydych chi'n gweld bod y Llywodraeth yn sylweddoli difrifoldeb y sefyllfa a'r hyn rydych chi'n rhybuddio o ran beth sydd yn cael ei golli, a beth ydy'r risg o'r pethau eraill bydd yn cael eu colli os nad ydyn ni'n rhoi'r flaenoriaeth i ddiwylliant?

Dwi'n meddwl bod y Llywodraeth wedi cytuno â'r hyn roeddwn i'n ei ddweud o ran yr ariannu sydd wedi bod ers 2010, er enghraifft. Mae yna dorri wedi bod ers 2010. Roedden ni'n cael £35 miliwn gan y Llywodraeth bryd hynny ac rŷn ni i lawr i £30 miliwn nawr, sy'n ryw 40 y cant mewn termau real. Felly, mae yna dderbyn bod hwnna yn ddadansoddiad cywir. Dwi'n meddwl gwnaethon nhw tsiecio'r ffigurau ac mae yna dderbyn.

O ran effaith hynny, mae hwnna yn rhywbeth—. Amser a ddengys, dwi'n meddwl. Dwi'n cwrdd â'r Gweinidog prynhawn yma. Byddaf yn gwneud y dadleuon ac yn cael trafodaeth adeiladol gyda'r Gweinidog newydd y prynhawn yma ar hynny o beth, ond amser a ddengys. Fe gawsom ni sesiwn drafod yn yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol. Rŷn ni hefyd wedi comisiynu economic impact report, sef effaith ein gwariant ni yn economaidd yng Nghymru—mae'n anodd dweud hynny; mae'n ddrwg gen i—ac fe fyddwn ni'n lansio hwnna fel rhan o'n sgwrs genedlaethol tua chanol neu ddiwedd yr hydref.

Diolch.

Iawn. Diolch. Gwnawn ni symud nôl at Laura.

Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Mr Rhys, sorry, what support other than financial does the arts council provide to venues as valuable as, for example, the Blackwood Miners' Institute, that of course are at risk of closure? You've just been talking about the well-being of future generations Act, so bearing that in mind and the importance of that and the negative impact on the community and beyond, I was just wondering if we could have your comments on that. Thank you.

The Blackwood Miners' Institute, we've been in constant discussions with them, with the staff there, with the chair of the advisory group, and with members of Caerphilly council. I had a meeting with Caerphilly council on Monday and I've also accepted an invitation to go and meet the staff in Blackwood. If it's not next week, it will be in the following week. The Blackwood situation—. We discovered there was an issue because the arts manager left and then they failed to re-employ, and then suddenly they weren't going to fill that role. That sent off the alarm bells for us, but we've had meetings since with Caerphilly.

The support we give the staff is to know that we are advocating on their behalf, and we're going to see them next week. We are also helping their chair of the advisory group in terms of liaising with the staff. I think it's quite an intricate position. They've obviously had to—. And this is all in the public domain—I'm sure it is. They've had to pause their plans there due to advice they got from the Charity Commission. It was something that we raised with them, actually, in a discussion, but others did as well, in terms of that, as trustees, I think the council cabinet were the trustees, and the question is whether it's appropriate, as a trustee of a charity, that you can make decisions on the funding of that charity. So, what they decided to do was to seek further legal advice on that, which actually—. They had an original timetable, if the cabinet had agreed, to mothball the institute by Christmas. We responded to the consultation and we've been quite strong in our views that that should not happen. This pause for legal advice might suggest that that time frame now is not achievable. The one thing we're asking the council and the staff to do is to look at whether we can use this time to look at a future funding model that doesn't include mothballing or closing the organisation in any way or form, because in our experience, very few mothballed venues or organisations actually reopen. There are examples, but they're few and far between. So, it's quite an intricate position, but in recent meetings with Caerphilly council, I must confess that they've been quite open with us. I think there were three things that the cabinet had to consider: one was do nothing; one was mothballing; and one was to explore and to seek additional funding models.

I think the other thing that happened with Blackwood as well is that I think that there was an element of levelling-up money. I think there was £10,000 on the table to appoint a consultant to look at alternative funding models for the institute, and that hasn't yet been explored. So, we're trying our very best to suggest that we do explore that, because it's a very valuable organisation. Interestingly as well—. Sorry, this is quite a long answer, but interestingly as well, in terms of audiences, in terms of participation, they are above the national average, really. They are doing really well. And it was such a disappointment to us, because we looked at them as, 'Oh, that's a really good example. That's a really good community venue that's doing really well.' And then suddenly, out of the blue somewhat, we got the news about the consideration of future funding. So, I don't think I've said anything that's not in the public domain, but that's the situation.

Just for Members to be aware, we are almost into our final quarter of an hour, so if we could try to be as concise as possible, that would be useful, so that we can get through as many areas as possible. Thank you.

Yes, just a supplementary on the same question, just to come back saying that, yes, you're right, it was a shock to everyone. The 6,000 signatures in 24 hours prove that, I think—the protest against it. In terms of the support, then, are you saying—? You're having meetings with the council, so are you using your expertise to say to them, 'This would be the best thing to do', for example?

Yes, we are. In the meeting on—I think it was Monday—. In the most recent meeting, then—it was this week—we also discussed the possibility—. They need some help in terms of running the organisation, because they haven't got an experienced arts manager at this point in time. They're going into a really busy autumn schedule, so we are offering our advice and suggesting from who or where they might find some help. So, there's an element of practical help there as well as well-being help in terms of listening to staff concerns as well.

Okay. Thank you. To what extent has the arts council sought to raise additional funding, for example, commercially or from trusts, foundations, that sort of thing, to mitigate the impact of declining public funding?

That question came up quite recently on radio discussions. What we are finding at the moment is that finding additional commercial money or money from trusts and foundations is more challenging now than it's ever been, because the economic crisis also affects individual sponsors and companies, and they are somewhat reticent to support. And for trusts and foundations, and for things like the community lottery, et cetera, the demand has gone through the roof. So, there's a demand issue. There's also an issue of whether we centrally, as an arts council, actually actively explore trusts and foundations and be seen as competing against the sector, who are also going for the same money. We do have a relationship with the Baring Foundation, however, and we've got a three-year understanding with Barings that they bring money to the table. We’ve got money to the table in terms of young people and mental health, and that is something we’re quite proud of, but we’ve got that relationship with Barings and then the money is distributed out into the sector.

Okay. Forgive me, I'm afraid we're going to have to move on because we only have quarter of an hour left. Are you happy for us to move on? Yes.

Fe wnawn ni symud at Carolyn.

Well, we've got quite a few questions. Chair, I'm going to come to you: is there anything that you want us to capture, really, that hasn't been already—?

Well, from 14 onwards, if that's all right?

You touched on the arts being statutory and creative industries and culture, so, what would that look like, do you think? And how could we go about that?

Well, statutory responsibility would mean that there would have to be far more scrutiny and discussion in terms of local authorities' spending on the arts and arts provision, and it would mean a level of protection in the sense that things couldn't be sort of cut as the first place to cut. So, that’s how it will look, I think, in terms of protection on a local level.

And I know local authorities, like you say, they tried to use the well-being of future generations Act, saying it's statutory, but there were arguments and push back. But on the libraries, there's certain legislation going back quite a few years, which they believe make it statutory.

I think libraries are protected. I think then there's a discussion about the level of spend on actual library provision—I think there's some flexibility in there—but it certainly is protected.

Okay, thank you.

Shall I—?

Yes, you can come in, Heledd, that's fine.

Thank you. Eisiau deall oeddwn i o ran y cylch gwaith rydych chi'n ei dderbyn o dan Lywodraeth Cymru. Yn amlwg, mae hwnna'n eang a dydy o ddim wedi lleihau er bod eich arian chi wedi lleihau. Felly, faint o ddeialog sydd yna efo Llywodraeth Cymru ar beth sydd yn realistig i chi allu ei ddarparu, a beth ydy rhai o'r pethau rydych chi'n methu â'u gwneud rŵan oherwydd y pwysau sydd arnoch chi i fod yn cefnogi a datblygu'r celfyddydau, oherwydd dwi'n siŵr y byddwch chi ddim yn gallu gwneud mwy efo llai o adnodd?

Na, mae hwnna'n berffaith wir. Dŷn ni'n sicr ddim yn mynd i fedru gwneud mwy ac mae yna ddadl y byddai rhai yn dweud y dylem ni wneud llai, ond ariannu beth ŷn ni'n ei wneud yn well. Ac mae hwnna'n gwestiwn anodd inni ddelio ag e, ond mae e'n gwestiwn.

Yn ffurfiol gyda Llywodraeth Cymru, mae yna ddau gyfarfod gyda'r Gweinidog a minnau a'r cadeirydd, y flwyddyn. Mae yna bedwar cyfarfod chwarterol lle rŷn ni'n edrych ar beth rŷn ni'n dweud: dyma beth rŷn ni'n dweud ŷn ni'n mynd i'w wneud, dyma le rŷn ni wedi cyrraedd—y QMMs, fel petai. Dwi yn meddwl—ac mae yna rai cyrff eraill yn yr un cwch ac yn gofyn yr un cwestiwn—ei fod yn gwbl ddibynnol ar beth fydd y setliad ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf. Ond os na fydd yna gynnydd, dwi'n credu bydd yn rhaid inni wedyn ofyn ar lefel uchel i gael sgwrs ynglŷn â beth yw ystyr y remit letter bellach, a beth yw'r gofynion a'r disgwyliadau a'r gwaith ychwanegol sydd ynddo fe.

Diolch.

What else could the Welsh Government do, besides funding? Is there anything else that could be done to help?

Well, there are a couple of things, I think. Welsh Government—. I've referred already to the arts becoming a statutory responsibility—I would ask Welsh Government to look at that. I would also ask Welsh Government to look at the arts in the round, if you like. I've been asked in this committee, I think, in the past, what we're doing in terms of partnership working. I'd like to see more partnership working within Government in one sense, so that when we are discussing our potential budget, we look at our contribution across departments, rather than in just one single department.

I'd like to consider whether it's possible in the longer term to look at funding over a three-year cycle, rather than going from one year to the next. I know that that asks bigger questions, but I'd like to see that being considered. I'd also like to see, within Welsh Government, in terms of spend, more flexibility so that we can carry more spend over into other financial years, because that would give us a better chance of being strategic in spending that money. And also, I'd like to hear a statement from Government about the importance of the arts in Wales, and a commitment.

Just coming in on that, so, you've got a new Minister who's in charge of skills. He comes under the business portfolio now. And in Ireland—we just went on a visit—they see the arts as part of business, basically, bringing money into Ireland and being really important that way. So, perhaps we could have that discussion with the new Minister in that area, and you too when you meet with him later.

Absolutely. We would welcome that.

Heledd wanted to come in, I think.

Os caf i jest ddod mewn ar hynny: heb sôn am unigolion yma, ydych chi'n credu bod angen inni fod yn dyrchafu rôl diwylliant o fewn Llywodraeth? Oherwydd mae o'n newid o fod yn Weinidog i Ysgrifennydd Cabinet, ac ati. Ydy o'n eich pryderu chi i weld ei fod o'n newid o lle mae o? Oes yna wahaniaeth pan mae yna rywun sydd yn Weinidog llawn neu'n Ysgrifennydd Cabinet yn arwain y portffolio o ran y statws mae hynny'n ei roi?

Mae e'n hollbwysig, dwi'n meddwl. Mae e'n signal pwysig. Mae'r statws yn bwysig, ond hefyd, gwrandewir ar Weinidogion llawn yn fwy, dwi'n meddwl; dwi ddim wedi bod yna, does gen i ddim profiad fy hun o hynny, ond fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod Gweinidogion llawn yn cario mwy o bwysau yn y Cabinet. Pan wnes i gyfeirio yn gyhoeddus at y toriadau am y tro cyntaf, fe ges i wybod bod rhai gwleidyddion, yn sicr, yn ddiolchgar ein bod ni wedi gwneud hynny, ei bod hi'n anodd weithiau cael y llais yna ar y lefel briodol o fewn Llywodraeth. Felly, byddwn i yn croesawu cael Gweinidog llawn, yn sicr.

Diolch. Carolyn, because we're short on time, do you want to focus on 18 and 19?

What are the relative merits of funding national companies via the arts council, as is the case in Wales, and directly from the Government, as is the case in Scotland? Funding comes through you in Wales and directly from Government in Scotland.

This will be a matter of policy, obviously. I think the argument that has been discussed in the past is that if the national companies are funded directly from Government, there is an additional strain of how do you make sure that you have a strategic arts policy across every element of the arts in Wales, and having the nationals and everyone else within the same strategy makes it clearer in terms of giving guidance, in terms of impact, in terms of reaching the audience you want to reach. We have to have an all-inclusive arts policy for Wales.

I’d actually take it further here: I don’t want to repeat myself, but things like health and education come into that as well. That’s part of the argument for the nationals. I think Scotland is not in a good place in terms of the arts currently. I think that there are strains there. Recently, the Scottish Government withdrew funding for individual artists. Creative Scotland then said, ‘Okay, we can’t fund them.’ The Scottish Government then changed their mind. There’s also been a promise in Scotland of an additional £100 million, I think, over the next five-year term, but my colleagues in Scotland say they’ve not seen any of that money. So, Scotland is probably not the best example to use at this point in time.

Is it less bureaucratic? Sometimes for arm’s-length companies it can be. And can you access other grants such as lottery grants or direct them to them better, do you think, than Government can?

Most certainly, I would have thought, but I’ve not done any in-depth research into that.

That might be helpful, to help them access grants. Just one more question: to what extent do the Welsh Government’s draft culture priorities, which were consulted on over the summer, help cultural bodies mitigate the impact of reduced funding?

Sorry, can you repeat that question?

To what extent do the Welsh Government’s draft culture policies, which were consulted on over the summer, help cultural bodies mitigate the impact of reduced funding?

I think it’s too early to say on that. I think there was an element of disappointment that it wasn’t a strategy and that it became a set of principles. I think the sector thought that was slightly unambitious. But it’s a piece of work that is reflective of the current economic climate that we’re all working in, I think. So, it’s too early to say whether it helps to mitigate. We’ll wait and see on that, I think.

Okay, thank you.

We have five minutes left of the session.

Dw i’n mynd i symud at yr oriel gelf gyfoes genedlaethol. Dwi'n gwybod bod Laura a Heledd eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn. Mi wnaf i ofyn am un cwestiwn gan Laura, ac un cwestiwn gan Heledd, fel bod amser yn y pum munud, os yw hynny'n iawn. Roedd Laura eisiau dod i mewn yn gyntaf.

Thank you, Chair. What is the current status of the arts council's involvement with the national contemporary art gallery project, please?

We sit on the steering group, along with the llyfrgell genedlaethol and Amgueddfa Cymru. There is an independent chair. There are staff associated with the project, some of whom work through Amgueddfa Cymru. There are two members of staff that work through us in terms of that project. Yes, that's our involvement, I think.

Yn amlwg, mi fuodd yna gyhoeddiad o ran peidio â chael oriel gelf genedlaethol fel adeilad angor. Mae yna amwysedd ar hyn o bryd o ran parhad y prosiect o ran arian. Mae’r cyllid yn dod i ben o fewn y flwyddyn ariannol yma, o’r hyn dwi’n ei ddeall. Pa drafodaethau sydd wedi bod o ran cynaladwyedd ariannol y prosiect o ran y buddsoddiad sydd wedi bod? Beth fyddech chi’n deisyfu gweld y Llywodraeth yn ymrwymo iddo fo? Oherwydd mae’n dod yn amlwg nad ydy’r adnoddau gan y cyngor celfyddydau, Amgueddfa Cymru a’r llyfrgell genedlaethol i barhau ac ymrwymo’n llwyr i ariannu £400,000 y flwyddyn.

Gallwn ni fel cyngor y celfyddydau ddim ariannu £400,000 y flwyddyn i’r oriel gelf genedlaethol. Dyw e ddim yn bosib i ni gyda’r toriadau rydym ni wedi eu hwynebu. Dwi’n meddwl ei fod e’n broject sydd mewn lle da iawn ar hyn o bryd. Byddai'r gwaith mae'r staff wedi ei wneud, a'r gwaith digideiddio sydd wedi digwydd, ddim wedi digwydd oni bai am yr oriel gelf. Mae yna waith cyfalaf yn mynd yn ei flaen i wella hyd at wyth neu naw oriel ledled Cymru fydd yn gwella’r profiad i’r gynulleidfa. Bydd e’n golygu bydd yna fwy o bosibiliadau i gael gwell safon gwaith celf ledled Cymru’n cael ei ddangos yn yr amgueddfeydd. Felly, mae yna lot fawr o bethau da wedi digwydd.

Hefyd nawr, wrth gwrs, mae yna weithgaredd wedi digwydd o gwmpas y project. Felly, mae e mewn lle da. Ond mae pob un partner rownd y bwrdd wedi bod yn gyson yn dweud bod angen parhad i ryw fath o nawdd gan y Llywodraeth i sicrhau bod y project yn parhau. Mae hwnna wedi bod yn gyson ar hyd y daith, ac felly mae yna drafodaethau. Roeddwn i mewn cyfarfod grŵp llywio peth amser yn ôl, ac mae’r Llywodraeth wedi gofyn am fwy o fanylion. Mae’r llif yn mynd tuag at yr amgueddfa fel y prif bartner yn y dyfodol, wedi 2025, oherwydd beth sydd ei angen yw sicrhau—. Mi oedd yr amgueddfa a’r llyfrgell gen yn benthyg eu gwaith gynt, ond nawr bod yna oriel gelf genedlaethol mewn cyfres o orielau rownd Cymru, mae’r gwaith yna’n mynd i fod yn dipyn fwy, onid ydy? Bydd e'n dipyn fwy, tipyn fwy o bwysau. Beth sy’n bwysig rywsut yw ein bod ni, ar ôl y gwariant yma sydd wedi bod ar yr orielau, yn gallu cael rhyw fath o system ddosbarthu sy’n gynaliadwy, rili—

A fyddech chi’n parhau’n bartner yn hynny? Ydych chi’n gweld rôl i’r cyngor celfyddydau yn hynny?

Ddim o reidrwydd. Mae yna rai pethau’n cael eu trafod o ran os ydy e’n aros fel project, a oes yna grŵp llywio ychwanegol ac a fydden ni’n rhan o hwnna. Mae’n perthynas ni, wrth gwrs, gyda’r orielau celf, ni sy’n eu hariannu nhw. Digwydd bod, mae pob un, dwi’n meddwl, yn rhan o’n portffolio ariannu amlflwyddyn ni, felly mae’n gwneud sens i ni fod yn ymwneud, ond nid ni fydd yn arwain arno fe. Ond gallai hynna newid.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mae’n flin gen i ein bod ni wedi rhedeg mas o amser. Gaf i ddiolch yn fawr iawn i chi am eich tystiolaeth y prynhawn yma? Bydd transgript o’r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i wirio ei fod e’n gofnod teg. Bydd yna ychydig o gwestiynau ychwanegol byddwn ni eisiau gofyn mewn ysgrifen dŷn ni ddim wedi cael amser i’w gofyn, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser y prynhawn yma. Dŷn ni wir yn ei werthfawrogi fe.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr. Gwnawn ni fynd i mewn i sesiwn breifat nawr.

Prynhawn da a chroeso nôl i'n sesiwn. Dŷn ni'n edrych ar effaith gostyngiadau cyllid ar ddiwylliant a chwaraeon, a dŷn ni'n cynnal sesiwn dystiolaeth gydag Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru. Gwnaf i ofyn i'n tystion gyflwyno'u hunain ar gyfer y record, a gwnaf i fynd yn gyntaf at Christopher Barron, sydd gyda ni yn yr ystafell.

I'm Christopher Barron, I'm the interim general director. I've been here since January and I finish at the end of September.

I'm glad that we were able to have you with us before you left.

I'm pleased to be here.

Thank you very much. We'll move to Adele Thomas, who is online.

Hello. I'm Adele Thomas, I am an opera director and I am the incoming director and chief executive officer, jointly with Sarah Crabtree, of Welsh National Opera.

We'll take a quick technical break a moment, because I think we can hear some interference, so we'll just go private, just for a moment while we sort that out and we'll be right back. I'm just going to wait to hear that we're private.

Croeso nôl. Mae'n flin gen i am yr oedi yna, ond dŷn ni nôl nawr gyda'n sesiwn ni gydag Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru. Os mae e'n iawn gyda'r ddau ohonoch chi, gwnawn ni symud yn syth at gwestiynau.

If I could ask you both, please, what assessment you would make of the health of classical music and opera specifically in Wales, given the cuts that, obviously, have been seen to Welsh National Opera and Mid Wales Opera, the ongoing pressures in St David's Hall, and what's happened with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama and their programme for young people. What would your assessment be of the state of play for classical music and for opera?

I wonder if Adele would like to lead on that.

The interesting thing is that Wales is not without its incredible amount of talent in these areas, and ultimately, it is the talent that leads the artform. I can really only speak to opera with any authority, but we are not short of singers and the technical staff and the creative driving forces of the medium. However, what I think is inevitable is that, with the current decrease in funding, that situation, this proliferation of talent that Wales has had in the past will inevitably die out. Because without any grass-roots support and without a pathway from grass roots to the very top of the industry available in Wales to our incredible Welsh talent and to international talent, there just will be no pipeline any more. And that, I think, is one of the most scary things, really, about the situation that the industry is in. It's not about where we are now, or about the amazing success that a company like WNO has just had with shows like Death in Venice winning the Sky Arts award recently. That is well and good and marvellous, but the worry is always for the future of the industry and what happens next. And without significant investment—and I think Dafydd mentioned this earlier on in the hearing; it's not a sticking plaster that we're looking for but a long-term commitment to the artform, or to the arts in Wales—then, one day, we will simply wake up and there will be no talent left. I don't know whether Chris wants to say anything that's less emotional than that at this moment in time.

There's a perfect storm at the moment, with the junior departments, with St David's Hall—that's an extra tragedy for WNO, because it uses it, as do many other people, and for the company itself. So, at the moment, in terms of the musical system in Wales, it is reducing at the moment, and that is a true worry.

Just one brief thing: I've worked in all the art forms, and actually, dance people say that dance should be first in school, drama say drama should be first, but actually, it's best that everyone has music, because everyone needs music. And I've come around to that completely clearly; if people can learn music in schools, that is a starting point for so many careers in the arts. And actually, for dancers and ballet dancers, their cue is in the music. Actors nearly all sing. It's a massive change. I just think that whole core business, as Adele has explained, is essential to a rich country.

Thank you both very much for that. In terms of the crisis facing WNO, could you tell us what figure you would need in order to survive, please?

Yes, I can. Can I just introduce that slightly by putting it the other way around? We are funded by two arts councils. So, that's Arts Council England and the Arts Council of Wales. And so they're two separate contracts. We have two paymasters and two separate requirements to make the company work, and that's actually how it was set up in the early 1970s, was actually that it should be part-funded. And the English story is about touring to the big theatres in England, which the company has always done. And that whole deal was only broken in 2022, very recently, in the last round. So, that's where our perfect storm comes: how do we serve the large theatres in England, which are very expensive to tour to, when you take nearly 200 people on the road, with hotels et cetera, et cetera? So, there is an issue.

When times are—. If I can do this one first. When times are hard, and times are hard all round on public funding, we in Wales now are seeing some results of, if I can say it, devolution. And I do think that that's an item in there. If you're going to cut Opera North in Leeds or WNO in Cardiff, there's a fair old chance, whatever the output of the company, it'll be Opera North in Leeds that actually succeeds, which it has done. So, Opera North in Leeds at the moment receives £2 million a year more than WNO through its joint grants. So, what I would say is that—to answer your question directly—to make a company like this work, you need between £10 million and £12 million a year, and that can keep it going, producing productions that fit—and this is an important one—in WMC, in the millennium centre, because WMC was the prize to the company in 2004, to have this glorious—. It is absolutely glorious. I've loved working in it. It's made for making opera, big shows, and actually to use that venue properly—. It's what I call the Sydney Opera House of Wales. Use it, it's big, it's impressive, it's lovely. And actually, to answer your question, a direct fund of £10 million to £12 million would make the company work.

Thank you very much for that. And so, in terms of what is needed now, in excess of—. I know that the figure of £1 million has been mentioned in some places but not elsewhere. Is £1 million what you would—?

The issue here is whether it's recurring or non-recurring. So, we welcome the help from Welsh Government on the £1.5 million that's going to the Arts Council of Wales, and we're making sure we have a very substantial application to that fund. However, that is a non-recurring help fund to get us through the current transition. Because that's what we're up to at the moment: we're transitioning from a company that turned over £16 million a year to one that's going to turn over roughly £11.5 million. To many, that might sound like a lot of money, but, in terms of opera, it's not. And I think that's—. So, we are looking to how we get through to, I suppose, the next applications to arts councils in the hope that, actually, the national economy, public spending, the public purse, improves. So, the figure of £1.5 million we've been looking at is as an immediate help in terms of getting through next year, which is where we have cash-flow problems, as we reduce the cost overhead of the company.

The deal goes that we—. Arts Council England gave us money to make the transition: that was the £3.25 million. That has to be spent by next year, and we have to get down to what we call revenue-neutral by the financial year 2026-27. So, our struggle is getting through to 2026-27 and managing the change and actually managing the reduction in personnel, because a lot of that cost is a reduction in personnel.

Thank you for that. I know that Members are eager come in, but, before, just if I could check, the Arts Council of Wales has an operational resilience fund, which I think is still accepting applications until the end of the month. Have you applied, or will you apply?

We are applying, yes.

You are applying.

So, it has to be in by tomorrow night, and the application will be in, setting out our position, yes.

Right. Thank you very much for confirming that.

Fe wnawn ni symud at Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. There have been some criticisms of the conditions associated with that £3.25 million from others, which have been shared with us as a committee, just outlining concern around how that does help the long-term aspirations of the WNO. Obviously, it hasn't been resolved in terms of the dual streams of funding, either. We had the Cabinet Secretary, Lesley Griffiths, at the time—

When she was Cabinet Secretary.

—say that she was going to have urgent discussions with the UK Government. It's been unfortunate in the fact that we've had so many changes here, and also, of course, there have been changes there. You mentioned optimism—that things might get better—but, obviously, your situation is quite urgent now in terms of if you lose members of the chorus, or people leave the profession et cetera, or the orchestra. How concerned are you about what's happening right now and the impact it will have on the WNO, and also in terms of the talent pipeline?

Thank you. That's a good question. We were given £3.5 million in spring 2022, before I arrived, by Arts Council England, which came from lottery funds, and it was particularly for transitioning the company through to the financial year 2026-27 down to using only its revenue. In the past, it's been using—. So, that's taking a company of 220 people down to currently nearly 180 people, a reduction. So, that is very particular money for enabling the company to get through to a point where it can work at a smaller budget, with a vision for the future, which is what Adele and Sarah were coming along to take us through. I am very concerned about it, absolutely, now. We are in the middle of a compulsory redundancy process at the moment, a consultation process is current, and we'll be losing more people in October. We have two streams of negotiations with unions—that's Equity for the chorus, and the Musicians' Union for the orchestra. We're hoping to strike deals. We need to strike deals with both unions in terms of how much we can afford for the future, in relation to the output for the company in the future. But the cuts are across the board. They're through the administration, through the engagement team, through the orchestra, chorus and the administration. So, actually, the effect is—. It couldn't be taken out of activity, if you get my drift. You couldn't just cut a couple of tour dates; it had to be a fundamental cut across the company. It's just over £4 million of cuts, which we have to enact, the bulk of it, by next summer.

And in terms of the—[Interruption.] Oh, apologies. Yes, please come in.

Adele.

Sorry, I just wondered whether I could respond to your question, because I think there are two concerns, as one of the people taking the organisation under my leadership next year. There are two concerns, really, that come from the financial position that it's in, and one of them is that Chris has done a brilliant job of trying to find savings that mean that the organisation can survive the next two years, and I think that we'd all agree that, as brilliant as those changes are, the survival is incredibly perilous, because it means stripping the finances to such a level that there is no room for error, and any slip in any direction could really put the company in jeopardy. My concern would be, if that is a situation that carries on longer term, then the company will really face some difficult questions about whether it's sustainable or not.

And the second thing is that the situation imposed by the conditions of the transition fund mean that the organisation will have to become a smaller organisation and will have to fit a model that is more exemplified by companies like Irish National Opera or Scottish Opera, or Opera North, which Chris has already mentioned, which are all fantastic companies, but this is the Welsh National Opera company. And I think that there is a bigger question here about the national confidence that comes from having a national organisation that is funded adequately and properly, and can, therefore, hit on a level that is worthy of what WNO is capable of, and what Wales can give to the world. So, I just wanted to throw those two points in, in response to your question.

[Inaudible.] This is a very hard strategy going forward. It's a no-choice strategy. But there's a lot of risk in there, going through. This has been—. Just something about WNO: it is the best-known opera company of Britain outside of Britain; it's the one that's travelled the world the most. It's interesting why it is the case, because the reason opera doesn't travel is because it's very expensive, but they've managed to find other people to pay for them to go abroad. It's very clever. They've done it. But they are known around the world. So, if you go to an opera conference in Europe, WNO is the one they know about. And, actually, when you see the quality of the work at the moment—. Actually, as Adele mentioned, Death in Venice, that's just received one award; it's going to get other awards, I know, going forward. It's the quality of the work at the moment, and that's what's terrifying for the company, do we lose that quality of the company, which, in anyone's book, and I've worked for three of them now, is exceptional.

It's world leading.

So, we are very concerned, and the big question the company asked me was, ‘Chris, how do you maintain quality?’, and that's an incredibly hard question, because actually the core of the orchestra—. It's a wonderful orchestra—if I can say this quietly in the corner, which is not quietly in the corner—they're probably the best of the opera orchestras. It's a really fine orchestra and I think that's really important. We're doing our very best to protect the core of the orchestra for the future as we become a reduced-size organization for the future. I'm always optimistic, but actually I have to say the current funding regime is not very optimistic, and I think, as much as we're looking to other opportunities for funding to come in, so is everybody else. It's quite a competitive market on that one.

So, it wouldn't be an overstatement, then, in terms of what you've just said, that the risk, then, in terms of the international reputation, the quality, may be compromised, in terms of talent development, then, attracting people to be part of the WNO—all of that is at risk currently.

Yes, that's completely correct. You’ve put that absolutely correctly, yes.

Thank you.

Opera is a very expensive medium, and I think there's no way of not looking that straight in the face and facing up to the fact that it is very expensive. And the reason that opera is an expensive medium is because it is so labour intensive, and that is where most of the cost of WNO goes. The orchestra is world class, as Chris has just said. There is a chorus in the organisation that is absolutely phenomenal. But the technical staff are an exceptional team of incredibly skilled people. The craftspeople that work in the organisation—. And I think, through the pandemic and with Brexit and the impact of those—. I'm sure you'll have heard in this committee the impact of that on the ecology of the arts. But, without that incredibly skilled workforce, it's not just WNO that will suffer, but it is the entire ecology of the Welsh creative industries, because those people do go between working at the WMC and the Welsh National Opera. They train the next generation of artists who then go on to work for the BBC, to make films, to work in design and craft departments of those organisations. Some of them will be freelancers who are dependent on that work, and freelancers make up 70 per cent of the industry in theatre and opera. So, it's a huge workforce, and it's a workforce that is worth billions across the UK, and I would imagine an extraordinary amount within Wales.

So, once you untangle the ecology of this, then the whole thing falls apart a little bit, and WNO being able to operate on the scale that it has done in the past has meant that it's been able to employ more of that skilled workforce, and so I think the impact will be way beyond WNO, actually, and we'll start to feel the lack of those skilled workers in various other industries as time goes on.

Laura wants to come in with a supplementary.

My questions—

Heledd, because Laura has to leave in a few minutes, would you be happy for Laura to have some questions now, and then we'll come back to you? Is that all right?

Yes, as long as we return—

Yes, of course we will.

Just following on from what you said, it's arguably very important that everyone does everything that they can to protect the WNO, for all the reasons you outlined, and the chorus particularly. To what extent has the WNO collaborated with other institutions and perhaps sought to raise additional funding—you've already mentioned it—commercially and from trust foundations, that sort of thing, to try and mitigate the impact of the declining public funding? Thank you.

On the fundraising front, it's had a good background. There are very loyal donors out there, and they are loyal still at the moment, and of course we're trying to expand that as much as we can through whatever campaign that is, whether it’s through trust foundations, through legacies. Legacies are an important thing. But that's all about our audience, having that audience there, because the audience—they're the people who love us, they're the people who are interested, and they're the people who might want to part with some cash to help us on that one.

In terms of collaboration with other companies, we share productions with the other opera companies. So, we have a substantial repertoire of operas we own, which are stored here in Cardiff. It's an extraordinary list of very successful productions. We hire them out. So, the working with other people is ingrained in us. We know how to do that, and we know how to make it efficient in that way. So, this current production of Il Trittico at the moment, that's a co-production with Scottish Opera. So that was an opportunity for two companies to share the cost of it. Otherwise it's just too hard to do; it's such a big, big opera to do in that way.

So, looking for those other opportunities I think is crucial to us. We work very closely with—and I think it's Adele's point as well—the music college. Just to know, a lot of our people work there as well. They are teaching there and actually bringing people on, and we're watching the whole time—where are the new voices coming? So, our associates programme—. There are three—I think two of them are Welsh speakers this year—come forward, they're all from Wales, they are now in the company for a year learning the trade, coming up the ladder, working on productions, having their own opportunities for growth. It's kind of enmeshed in society and musical society as a company, and I think that's something it does very well.

On the orchestral front, I am looking where I can, or, certainly, our head of orchestra is looking where can it work elsewhere, where can it find other commercial opportunities. The country's quite rich in symphony orchestras already, so not everyone needs another symphony orchestra, but one has to try and find other ways by which that skill base is maintained, and that is one way of doing it, as well as doing the productions we ourselves do.

Okay, thank you very much. What is the current status of your proposals to reshape the company in light of the reduced funding?

So, we're on a path at the moment by which next summer we'll have reduced about £3.5 million-worth of value in the company. So, that's through personnel, cuts in touring, cuts in productions. So, it is the first heave. After that first £3.5 million by next summer—and that's what's supported by the transition fund—there is another £1 million to find. So, there's another £1 million in the pot that we need to take out of the budget of WNO by the year 2026-27. So, there's another 18 months of fairly gruelling change to get ourselves to a position by which we can work.

Can I just give you a worry in the middle of that, which is that if we reduce much more activity, particularly in England, I see that as a threat to the company, because, actually, when we go back next time to England for the next NPO round, the next funding round, if it's much reduced, that'll be a view taken on it? Actually, the funding is specifically for touring, but yet it supports the machine that makes opera in the first place. So, that is a big risk concern I have to make sure that we do maintain that relationship in England, and maintain that relationship in providing opera for those large theatres of the south-west.

That does sound a concern. How are you as an organisation seeking to mitigate the impact of funding reductions on people with protected characteristics and lower socioeconomic status? Thank you.

We're utterly committed to that—there's no doubt about it—but there will be a level of reduction in what we call our programme engagement—so, the learning programme, and that does impact on everyone, including people with protected characteristics. There is a level of it. But the company is a very determined company. We were all brought up in equal opportunities—that's the background to our arts council funding. We're very wedded to that whole world of inclusion. That is second nature to the company, and I think that doesn't go away at all. I think the company is very concerned about that.

Thank you.

Diolch, Laura. I know Heledd wants to come back in with some more questions on funding. Could I just check, before Heledd comes back in, as, Christopher, you just said that the company would need an extra £1 million to be found in savings? Earlier, you said there was £1.5 million that was needed in immediate help. So, which one would it be?

The £1.5 million takes us through next year into the 2026 year to give us time to actually reduce, to take that extra £1 million out of the organisation. So, it's pro tem money—it's more transition money we're looking for.

And that's what you'll be applying to the operational resilience fund for.

Yes, exactly that.

Right, okay. Thank you. Forgive me. Okay, Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. If I may, just looking in terms of the long term, I know your challenge is short term, and solutions, but, obviously, this dual funding stream, the fact that you're reliant on two different Governments and two different Governments' priorities, is that something that you have been discussing with Arts Council of Wales and the Welsh Government in terms of—? You are, after all, the Welsh National Opera. We do have devolution here in Wales. We have a cultural strategy being developed. Are you looking to the Welsh Government to provide, perhaps, more stable funding or to support you so that you're not as reliant on two Governments? Or is your aim that we try and get Arts Council England to acknowledge their role and to safeguard that funding? Do you have a preference, or is it just a matter of, 'Please give us funding so we can continue' at the moment?

All those points make a lot of sense. We're in conversation with both arts councils the whole time. So, the office we deal with particularly is Bristol, but I do work closely with the senior management of the arts council in London. So, they all know the situation. Actually, the arts council in London, of course, cut us by 35 per cent, so they really do know our story; it's a really important thing, that.

If I could do the long term—what I think your question is about—I think Wales has to really adopt this company, going forward. If it's going to be there, Wales really needs to find a way of supporting it with stability. You mentioned the word 'stability', and that's one of the worst things in our industry, full stop, but, in this particular process, we need to get the company to a stable place so it can't really work hard under Adele and Sarah in the future. For me, that's so important. But I do think, going forward, we'll fight very hard for funds from London. I suspect, given the situation in general, I would ask you, the Welsh Government, to take the company on board and give it every chance. When you hear Adele speak—maybe it's her turn in a second—about some plans for working in Wales, and the excitement of working in Wales, what I've learnt about working in Wales is we don't have elitism here. It's such an important difference. All my life I've had this flung at me, the elitist thing of opera, which, of course, is, in the main, a lot of rubbish, but here in Wales it's not an issue. So, I do think, here, venerate the big machine that's here and venerate the talented workforce out there. I think that's the direction of travel.

Thank you.

Yes, I think that's a very good point, Chris, because the organisation has a really unique origin that I'm sure Chris has talked to you about before, but it wasn't instilled by anyone in Wales; it grew quite organically from a group of Welsh singers, who were amateur singers, who wanted to form an opera company in Wales, and while that might seem a bit twee and a bit in the past, actually, there's a power to that. And I think opera in Wales has always been very connected to democracy, and Sarah's and my plan for the future is that WNO becomes an even more democratic organisation and can represent Wales, and can produce the canon in the bold and brilliant ways that it does, but can also have a much bigger connection to its Welsh identity, ending in our great ambition to create a Welsh canon of opera, a canon that we think will reflect the national confidence of the country and the unique language and the unique voice that we have as a nation. That's definitely, as Chris says, going to take an awful lot of backing from someone, and I think the point of stability that Chris is making is a really good one, and the question of what partnerships we can make in the future to help cost reduction is brilliant. We can absolutely partner up again and again with different organisations, and I'd love to talk to the WMC to see what could be done there about staff sharing and that kind of thing. However, those conversations are very long term and, currently, the funding situation is chronic and immediate. So, I think some sort of sense of stability would be the No. 1 facet that could help the organisation, for sure.

Thank you. And, if I may, obviously there's the wider risk. You mentioned your partnership with the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama, and, at the moment, St David's Hall is closed, with Cardiff Singer of the World in terms of music here in Wales and some of the things that have been really important in terms of our international strategy—those are at risk, currently, or have been paused, so I think it's important we as a committee reflect on the wider place and your partnerships there.

And also, if I may, you mentioned, in terms of not being as elitist, democratisation and how different it feels here in Wales. Certainly, we've received case studies in the past, for instance on the work you did during COVID in terms of the workshops to improve people's lung health and so on. Sometimes those things go under the radar, but I presume, with the situation you face, those are some of the impactful things that will not be as possible to fulfil in the future. How worried are you, then, about the company's contribution to those wider socioeconomic or health benefits that are beyond, perhaps, what people think of when they think about an opera company, usually?

Thank you. It's a really important point. We do work with all seven Welsh health boards in terms of post COVID, and, actually, we are maintaining, wherever we can, the engagement programme, which is the one that organises those programmes, and that's becoming more and more valuable, and we are receiving extra—fairly modest but useful—sums to enable that programme to grow. So, I think there's social awareness within the company—I'm just here this year, but I'm very impressed by how it wants to work and how it does work and how it understands the context in which it is, and I think they're very wedded to enabling that for the future. But I am concerned about how much we can do, because all that does cost, there's no doubt about that, but there's a real determination to make sure we are part of society. So, the working with Oasis Cardiff, with the immigrant community, that's a big part of our work, and the work in schools. We're good at all that; it's a shame to break it up, if we do. Actually, we do a lot of work throughout, actually, making opera for youth—the youth opera—which is separately funded, by the way. That will be there next May. That's a very important thing, with people who work every weekend to enjoy singing and to enjoy making a production. So, I think WNO has a real role there, in the central part of musical life here, and also a worthwhile life, the things that, intellectually and physically, make a worthwhile life. There are a lot of gifts in there that the company can bring. But I'm concerned; you're absolutely right to bring that up.

Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. As a committee, on the points that you were just making about the culture being what makes life worth living, I think, frustratingly for us, we come up time and again against people seeing the arts and culture as something that is nice to have, which is always the first thing to be cut. And, as you say, it actually is intrinsic to our health and our outlook as a nation. So, thank you very much.

Diolch am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Carolyn.

Chris, we've got you here today, but you're leaving soon and you've been the interim director, but you've been part of the company before, haven't you, for a long time? And then Adele is coming in. I'm just thinking how it's all a bit interim at the moment with you two and you're having to deal with the cuts and funding, and sometimes you feel like there's a knee-jerk reaction. So, there's a board as well, isn't there, and the chair of the board has been in place since 2019.

Yes, that's right.

Do you think that there are other ideas we've not touched on that they might have, going forward, in having to deal with the crises now that you're having to deal with?

Yes, the board's there, and the chair is Yvette Vaughan Jones, who some of you probably know. Yvette has been working away with the board through that period of time. They are very concerned at the moment and they are very heads-down in terms of being concerned about the going concern for the company.

And the employees, I guess. I think they were hoping that the funding that was mentioned by the Arts Council of Wales just now, the £1.5 million—I know you said it would be transitional—I think that they were hoping that that could be used to actually retain some of the musicians at the moment.

On that very note, what it will retain is not people in the short term; it will enable a company for the future. It's about getting to 2026-27 with a robust company here that can work well at that point. So, that's how the money will be used, not for maintaining immediate jobs that cannot be used full time. It will be used for maintaining the jobs in the company for the future. Much as we're fighting really hard to maintain as much of the current skill base as we can, 25 per cent of the budget is being taken away. But that immediate cash, I'm afraid, will be used—I think it's the right use for it—to protect the long term, not the short term.

Can I ask you—? You do a lot of travel, so Brexit must have had an impact on you, and I read somewhere about the cost of visas that you're paying for now as well, as a company—the cost of visas, and we heard earlier about the impact of having visas for people and travelling for people, but also all of the instruments as well and the cost of that. So, have you had discussions with the UK Government regarding the impact of that and whether that can be covered in some way, towards funding in the future?

Well, it's not covered by any funding, apart from that which we have, our basic budget. It is more expensive. We use visas the whole time. So, in the cast of Rigoletto, which Adele is directing at the moment, we have people from all over the world in the cast, and that's very much the role of an international opera company. But, each time we have someone, there's a payment to have them come into the country. So, that comes out of our own budgets.

I was shocked, reading the report—I can't find it, because I was when I was reading through it. I was shocked at the cost of it—

Yes, it is.

—and the impact. So, I just think that that could be another discussion that we could bring in with the UK Government.

It's become another budget item for us. Say if we want to take our lorries abroad—. For instance, we work very closely with the company in Brno, in Czechia, and we've got a co-production with them waiting to come to Cardiff. That'll be lorries collecting scenery from Czechia to come here, with all of the carnet, et cetera, requirements to bring it into the country.

So, what conversations have you had, then, with both the Welsh Government and the UK Government about the impact of reduced funding for WNO?

This subject came up at the last evidence session earlier in the year, actually. So, we are in touch with—. I can't give you the exact background of what meeting happened when, but I know that those conversations have gone on and, actually, the company, I think, is well skilled to deal with it. It just happens to be expensive.

What else can the Welsh Government do besides funding, going forward, do you think?

I've been thinking about that question. It's an interesting one. I've tried to avoid the 'Give us more money' one, but I do think venerate what Welsh National Opera does—that's a really important thing. I was thinking: is there something structural that you can do about how things are sorted out? WMC, I think, receives its cash from the Arts Council of Wales. It's not for me to put their own argument forward, I'm just thinking in terms of how money is used. The national museums, I think, are paid for directly out of the Welsh Government. WMC is paid for out of the Welsh arts council budget, which has reduced massively over the last 10 years. Is there a structural arm there that could help somewhere along the line? I'm not trying to damage anyone else—absolutely far from it.

That was going to be my next question, actually—the relative merits of funding national companies via an arts council, as is the case in Wales, or directly from Government, as might be the case in Scotland.

I like the traditional relationship with an arts council, the arms-length—I think it's a good relationship when it works and when there's enough cash to go around. That's basically the issue there. In Scotland, where I've worked a lot, the five national companies, and they're quite big companies in Scotland, are all funded out of the Scottish Government there. They have created a separate department in the Scottish Government to look after those companies, so whether that was a good use of more money to actually administrate the central scheme, as opposed to putting it through Creative Scotland, I think there's an argument there.

But in Wales it's slightly different, because we are the only big company. Obviously, we have National Dance Company Wales and the drama company, but in terms of how we can be looked after, I'm trying to look for where you have opportunity to help us, in some structural—. I have to leave that to your imagination, as much as anything, about how you might help that. The money is the money wherever it comes from, I understand that, but, actually, is there some cleverness in there that can be—? Is there an infrastructural fund that could look after the WMC? A dream is for us to perform more in WMC. It was made for the company, and this wonderful thing came on in 2004, unbelievably beautifully designed and carefully designed for making big shows, and we're not doing enough in there. I think if we could find a way—. If we can do more work in WMC, we don't travel and send lorries around the country. We stay here and we pay for the opera there. Now, obviously, there's only a certain audience range, there are 400,000 people in the greater Cardiff area. This is not Birmingham with nearly 2 million in the greater Birmingham or Manchester area, but I do think there is a base here.

Actually, your colleague here, Laura Anne, mentioned Cardiff Singer of the World. That whole thing around the world about what this is here—. People around the world think and believe, and it's true, there's something mighty special in Cardiff that needs to be protected. It's a massive tragedy about St David's Hall, but we do have this fabulous theatre. To find a way by which it could be used to its fullest extent, I think, is something else that can be considered somehow. There's a conversation there to be had, I think.

The performance on the Senedd steps was fantastic, by the way—

Oh, did you enjoy that?

Yes.

We really enjoy coming here. The company is really game and really likes coming to perform here for those events, like on 21 June. That was very important.

It was very good—

Sorry, may I respond to your question?

Of course, Adele.

There's a very noticeable lack of philanthropy in Wales, I think, in comparison with other nations. The philanthropists that do give to WNO are, obviously, hugely appreciated, and we're deeply thankful to them and dependent on them, but I do wonder whether or not there's a wider programme of encouraging philanthropy for the arts in Wales. That could be something that Government could organise, pick up or promote in some way, shape or form. Because I think the sad fact is that we're going to be more dependent on it as we move forward into the future.

It often gets pointed out to me that we haven't got the billionaires, but people can really care, can't they, with not so much, and it could be—. If they feel the music, and that's a priority to them, even if they don't have much money, any funding is helpful.

Absolutely.

To what extent—my last question to you—do the Welsh Government's draft culture priorities, which were consulted on over the summer, help cultural bodies mitigate the impact of reduced funding? I'm not sure whether you actually saw that. It was the Welsh Government's draft culture priorities, which were consulted on over the summer.

I submitted to that. Has it helped us at all in the current circumstances? Not really, no. Is it important that we are part of it? Is it important that we contribute to it? It is extremely important that we contribute to it and are part of the cultural matrix of Wales.

Okay. Thank you for doing that. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for that. I think, as a committee, I can speak for us, and I'm sure I speak for the members of the committee who haven't been able to be here today, as well, that we do appreciate a lot of the words that you've said in terms of the vital importance of WNO. And I'm sure that you can appreciate as well the anguish that we're all aware has been felt by so many members of the chorus, of the orchestra and supporters, of course, as well, because it is cherished. As a company, it is world leading and it's also ours; I think it's a matter of so much pride for so many of us in Wales that this fantastic jewel of an organisation is something that is Wales's banner onto the world, almost, and that we have this platform showing the very best in creative excellence. And we as a committee are just so desperate to ensure and to see that that success continues for the individuals involved as well as for the company. Could I ask you both—if I could go to Chris first and then to Adele—what your hope would be for what the WNO of the future will look like? If I go to Chris first.

It has a wonderful background and it's got a wonderful root in Wales, and it really did come out of here. The reason the Arts Council of Great Britain, in the early 1970s, came to Wales was because it wanted more touring opera and the one available was this rather fine company based here in Cardiff. And I just think that background, going forwards into the future—. This is a wonderful base. It doesn't have to be the biggest city in the world, it just has to be somewhere where something very special happens. There's a city in Germany called Wuppertal where a very famous dancer was based for a long time—not a distinguished city, in many ways, apart from its overhead railway, but actually, that city became very famous because of this one dancer based in the theatre there. It's an extraordinary story. And I just think there's something here very special for Wales.

Can I just say that I appreciate your comments in terms of the care for the company? Because actually, one of the big problems we have in the company, going through transition, is the disbelief. It's a very proud company; it knows it makes great work, and actually, it's pleased with what it does. What I mean is that when you see the result of Death in Venice or Il trittico or Adele's Rigoletto, it's a company that really knows how to make shows. It really knows how to make opera and I think that comes from knowing its skill base and being aware of its skill base. So, whatever you can do to push that on for the future—. But a company here that can grow in the future, that, actually—I think Adele will say it, probably—is about a vision for the twenty-first century—. It's about where does it go, so opera doesn't get stuck in—I've forgotten the expression—the 'maybe it's a nice thing to do on a Saturday afternoon' department, you know? It is about something that's essential to life appreciation, because that's where opera came out of in the first place and I think it can really work here.

I agree. Sarah and I came up with a tagline when we actually interviewed for the role of joint general director and CEO, and the tagline was, 'Eich Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru'; that it's your Welsh National Opera. And I've been hugely inspired by the sorts of opera companies and the companies that Chris was talking about where you can go to a German town and the community has an opera company that is the cultural heartbeat of that place, and we want WNO to be the cultural heartbeat of Wales. I think Wales has a very special relationship with opera; we want the opera company to reflect Wales's rebellious spirit and we want to create the great repertoire and the great canonical work, but we also want to balance that with a massive amount of innovative work that challenges form, that challenges who opera is made for and made by.

We take very seriously the fact that WNO sits on the old Tiger Bay site; there's a cultural diversity in Wales that is not being reflected, necessarily, at the moment—not just in Welsh National Opera, but in opera in general—and to really celebrate that. We'd love to balance the work that—Chris is absolutely right—is essential to make in that building, the WMC, because that is the scale and the might of opera that allows us to not just employ this array of extraordinary talent, but also to knock people out with the form and its power and the sheer unadulterated potency of the human voice unamplified, and the analogue nature of the orchestra, the direct connection that the audience has with it, but also to take opera to places that maybe feel less obvious.

There's a great history connecting to the bass baritone Paul Robeson, and I'd love to take more opera into the communities that he visited when he came here in the 1920s. Interestingly, it'll be 100 years since he first met the Welsh miners in a couple of years' time, and I think it's important for us to remember that those democratic connections are the things that make opera so special. It's an amazing art form, because I think it can very easily become about the extraordinary power of those single human voices, but actually, the thing that I would love everyone to take away from us talking today is that opera is a workforce; it's a village. Every show takes a village-load of people to make it come to life, and the collective endeavour and the power of it is what makes it so special, and I'd love the WNO of the future to be that collective endeavour on behalf of the nation of Wales, here and across the world.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Adele. And just on that final point, if I may, that's such an important point about the workforce—that of course, yes, this is about those phenomenal individual voices and these wonderful musicians, but also that workforce. Will you, when you begin in this role, be wanting to grasp the urgency of the situation in terms of the anguish that is being felt at this moment by that workforce? And are there any final words that either of you would like to leave us with in terms of what your hope would be for the workforce, and so not just the fantastic projection of WNO to the world, but also what happens inside the company? I'll go to Adele first, and then to Chris.

Yes, absolutely. I've just been very lucky to work with them, because I've just finished making a show for WNO; very interesting timing, because it was my debut at WNO after having made work across the world. And of course, nobody wants that workforce to suffer; I would personally love the opportunity to have the resources for a full-time chorus and an orchestra and all those technical staff to be available to the company, because I think that they are working in the service of the nation, at the end of the day. But the financial restraints that we have on us at the moment mean that that's just impossible.

So, it's how to square those two things, because there is a cost, and I can't stress enough that the cost of running an opera company is in its labour. So, if we don't have that money at our disposal and the company risks—which it does—becoming company that is not a going concern any more, then it's just not possible to employ those people. So, there is an urgency to which we have to either find that money or we have to make a change to the company.

Chris may very well have pointed this out to you before, but one of the issues would be of having full-time staffing, but we were only able to produce work for three months of the year, for example, because of the funding restrictions. So, in order for the company to be a fully operational going concern for the nation, then we do have to be able to make work all year round and we do need the resources to do that. There's no two ways about it. I wish I could say to you that there was a magic solution to all of this, but unfortunately, there's just no—[Inaudible.]

Chris, is there anything that you'd like to add, please?

I think it's all been said, but I just thought of one thing that is completely to do with nothing at all. Churchill put the committee for the encouragement of the arts together in 1944; WNO was created in 1943. It's just such an interesting bit of irony there. This company got there, it made itself, and it became important, and it was supported by Government, but it came out of that wartime period of something for the future. And I think now this struggle at the moment—. And it's really hard; I feel awful for the people in the company. I hate seeing it going on, especially—. There's a massive skill base; Adele addressed that really well. And actually, in the making skills side. By the way, we have a separate company called Cardiff Theatrical Services, which makes scenery and props for the nation, and this year it turned over and made a profit, and that profit comes into WNO. So, we do have another arm there as such. It's not going to save us, but it's a very intelligent bit of background to the company that actually it brought a creative base here to Cardiff. Trying to protect all that I think is the dream going forward. We've got to get through the current period and we've got to get to a better future.

Thank you both very much. I'll just check that there aren't any final questions. No, I think that's a good note to end on.

Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i'r ddau ohonoch chi am eich tystiolaeth y prynhawn yma. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sydd wedi cael ei ddweud yn cael ei anfon atoch chi ichi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg. Ond a gaf i ddiolch yn fawr iawn ichi am eich tystiolaeth y prynhawn yma?

Thank you very much indeed.

Thank you for allowing us to speak. That's really kind of you, and it's very nice to talk to you about it. Thank you for your support. We really appreciate that.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you very much, both. The committee will move on now, but if there's anything that we need to take up with you in writing, we'll write to you with that. But thank you very much.

That's absolutely fine, please do.

Thank you both very much again for your evidence.

Aelodau, mi wnawn ni symud ymlaen. Jest cyn i ni gau, hoffwn i ddweud ar y record bod consérn wedi ei godi ynglŷn ag ymddygiad Aelod yn gynharach heddiw wrth siarad gyda thyst, a bod yr Aelod o bosib wedi torri Rheol Sefydlog 17.25. Mi fydda i'n ystyried y mater hwn ymhellach. Mi wnawn ni gau'r cyfarfod yma nawr a pharhau yn breifat. Mi wnaf i aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat.