Standards of Conduct Committee

Welcome back to this meeting of the Senedd Standards of Conduct Committee. This is going to be our sixth evidence session now on our inquiry into individual Member accountability, and it's a pleasure to welcome the Counsel General Mick Antoniw and his officials to this meeting. We have a series of questions for you, Counsel General, as we try to work through the best approach for our Parliament in relation to recall or removal. So, if I can start off with the circumstances for triggering a petition, we're really interested to know your views on what circumstances you feel might be appropriate for triggering a petition. Obviously, we are looking to Westminster at the moment, with its three-pronged approach of a less than 12-month prison sentence, because more than 12 months leads to disqualification, a suspension of at least 10 sitting days or someone who is convicted of an expense offence. Do you think those are broadly the areas that we should be looking at, or have you got any other ideas there?

No, I think that broadly is right. I know that, of course, the House of Commons are also looking at some of these issues and reviewing their, I think, 2015 Act. Of course, the trigger is really the key for so many reasons in which to legislate in this particular area. I think the starting point is that any action that leads to the disqualification and removal of an elected Member is, obviously, a very serious step, a very significant step, and has to be analysed and scrutinised very, very carefully, which is why I'm pleased to see that that is what is happening.

I think, generally, we want to try and at least have some sort of consistency across the Parliaments. Obviously, we have to look at the discrete and distinct circumstances of each of the Parliaments of the United Kingdom, but I think there are common traits. So, I think a suspension from the Senedd for a period of time—that is, obviously, something you'll consider and recommend, whether it's two weeks, three weeks, or whatever it should be—is obviously a key trigger in respect of a whole number of standards issues. Other disqualifications that exist already—bankruptcy, I think, is one—. The other disqualification, of course, is a period of imprisonment, and I think the imprisonment is actual imprisonment as opposed to suspended, so I think the issue as to whether there should be a distinction between a penalty of imprisonment, suspended or otherwise, is obviously something that needs to be looked at. Twelve months does seem rather high. Should it be any sentence of imprisonment? Should it be a lower level—I know, obviously, debates are going on in Scotland, who also are considering similar legislation—the idea of possibly six months or a lower period? Those are matters to be considered, but I think we are in the same ballpark as Westminster, and, indeed, Scotland, in terms of the direction that we want to take. So, I very much look forward to the recommendations that come from your committee, Chair, and, obviously, we'll give consideration to those in how we proceed.

Thank you, Counsel General. And just to clarify there, so you feel it would be worthwhile us looking at the issue of disqualification and whether a Member should be disqualified for a prison sentence that is less than 12 months.

Well, I think so, because I think, in many ways, what you're looking at are events that happen where action needs to be taken, or where the committee will want to consider making recommendations and how it does that, but also where there are other things that have happened that would disqualify someone from automatically being able to stand for the Senedd, or an event occurs that results in criminal charges being brought against an individual, and that, again, triggering. So, that broad range of triggers I think is really important. It's one of the keys, I think, to any legislation that comes forward.

Thank you. Can I ask your view as to whether you think that recall should be simply a matter of conduct, a conduct issue that's come through the standards committee, or whether you think that there could be room for issues that the electorate might feel are a barrier to democratic representation? I'll give you a concrete example there. We know that, within our Senedd, we have had instances in the past of a Member who was elected on a party list—which, obviously, is going to mirror the system that we'll find post Senedd reform—of that Member who was elected on a party list then deciding to change party. That has happened on some occasions, not once, not twice, but three times with a Member. There's certainly a growing opinion among the electorate, it seems, that that doesn't leave them with the representative that they had elected at the ballot box. I just wonder what your views are around whether there is room for us to be considering this as part of a recall or removal process as well.

There is room for it to be considered, but, of course, we did consider it, I think, within the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, and I think the approach we've taken there is that it is probably a step too far in terms of legislating to interfere in the democratic processes that take place within the Senedd and the circumstances whereby someone might feel they need to leave a political party. I think the approach that's taken there, certainly in terms of my thinking at the moment—and, again, it's very much that we're all thinking our way through this, we consider the evidence on this—would be that, if someone did do that, what they couldn't do is either form another party or join another party, and that they would then have to sit as an independent. The reason why I'd be concerned about being over-specific in this is that there might be events, for example, in a party. A political party might, after an election, change its policy and position on something that the person is not able as a matter of conscience or whatever to agree with, and, therefore, feels that they have to leave that political party. Their argument would be, course, 'Well, I'm in the political party, I was elected on a particular manifesto et cetera,' if the circumstances have changed. So, I think, the dialectics and the dynamics of politics—. I think, once someone is in the Senedd, it would be inappropriate to be able to change the balance and the structure of the party in the way in which people were elected by going into another party. But I think sitting as an independent and not able to form a new party would be, in my thinking at the moment, the most effective way forward.

Thank you. That's really helpful. Obviously, this is a very serious process, recall or removal, if it goes ahead. Do you feel that a Member who has been given that as a sanction should be entitled to appeal that decision?

I think within the—. The process, as I see it, would be that a complaint is made, a report is made, in the usual way to the standards committee and the standards committee makes a recommendation, which has to be approved. But, before that happens, I think, probably, there has to be an appeal process. I think there might be all sorts of human rights issues if there wasn't an appeal process. I'm not sure to what extent I'm right in saying that, but I know that there is an appeal process at the moment and it's been exercised on a number of occasions. I think there might be issues in terms of legal challenge if there were not. For example, I suppose one of the issues might be in terms of consistency, whether particular standards apply to one individual, a particular penalty, but then a different penalty is imposed by the committee of a higher threshold or something. So, I think the issue in terms of the standards committee, also in terms of its consistency of how it operates, is going to be something that's worth considering as well.

I don't like to use the term 'sentencing policy' in that way, but, if you have two comparative standards, how do you draw comparators with them? Each of them is going to depend on their individual circumstances, so there's no way of being really definitive about it, but I think being able to have an appeals process that at least concerns all those sorts of challenges or issues in terms of evidence that's been accepted and so on—. There needs to be an appeals process. What I would say, though, is that I think it needs to be something that's exercised very quickly. I know, from previous matters that have been before the standards committee, that the process has gone on for a very, very prolonged period. So, I think something that operates efficiently is really important, but I do think there needs to be one. I suspect the approach—. What happens at the moment is an appeal to a High Court judge, isn't it, is what normally happens and the evidence is then considered there and representations are made—that might be the way forward. So, you're doing it right at the moment, but, again, yes, you do need to think about that and how that would operate.

Thank you. And one final question from me, and it's really around this issue of consistency, I suppose. Currently, any sanction that's recommended by the standards committee goes to a vote in the whole Senedd for each Member to decide whether they support that or not. Do you think that it should be the same process for a recall petition—that that's put to the whole Senedd? And if so, do you feel that a simple majority would be sufficient, which is what there is now for standards committee recommendations, or do you think we would need to move to that supermajority, that two thirds?

It's a very, very good question and I don't think there's an easy answer to it. My inclination, in terms of what public expectation would be, would be that there would be a simple majority. I suppose the concern would be if there was one party that had an overall majority, but, of course, you have that within the Westminster system, and I think it comes down to the integrity of Senedd Members acting in a parliamentary way, properly. So, my thinking at the moment is probably a simple majority. I think to have a two-thirds majority would, potentially, I suppose even more over-politicise the decision-making process. I think the process has to be seen as one where whips can't apply; I don't think it'd be appropriate in any circumstances for there to be a whipped system. Everyone would be participating, I think, in terms of their own individual integrity. So, my thinking is a simple majority: a recommendation, a report, comes to the Senedd, the Senedd considers it and considers accepting the recommendation.

Thank you. I'll bring in Mark Drakeford now.

Chair, just on that very final point. Counsel General, I understand the point you make about an objection to the simple majority if there is one party with a majority, but isn't the bigger objection to a two-thirds threshold that it gives a whole series of parties a blocking minority?

Yes—

Now, I heard what you said about not being whipped and so on, but politics is tribal in its nature and, in a two-thirds majority, if it were a Member of a particular party who was being considered, the rest of the Members of that party would have, in effect, a blocking minority. Isn't that a stronger argument in favour of a simple majority?

Well, I think that you're right on that, and I think also that also moves towards the view that the public expectation would be that if you've gone through the process where a report has been received by the committee, representations have been made by the individuals concerned, a recommendation is then made to the Senedd—. It would be, I would have thought, an exceptional circumstance in which a Senedd would reject a recommendation that came forward. Obviously, the power lies with the Senedd, but I think that the public expectation would be by a simple majority. And you're right: the reverse is that, if one party has the majority, then there are issues there, but you're equally right that, in the nature of the Senedd as we have it, anyone who has more than—. If a group of parties were able to block on the basis of a minority vote, I think that would be unacceptable to the public.

Thank you. I will bring in Peredur Owen Griffiths now. Pred.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, Mick. Just on something that you said in relation to Vikki, and I asked the previous witness as well, if you changed the fact that the trigger could be a custodial sentence, possibly below six months—. Say somebody had a custodial sentence for a week on a matter of conscience, how would you treat that within this process, just as a hypothetical, just if you'd thought that through?

Well, it is an important point and, of course, we do know that there have been protests of conscience on a variety of issues, from the Welsh language to anti-apartheid campaigns to nuclear campaigns. I seem to remember, in the 1950s, there was the Committee of 100 and so on. So, there have been these—which are part, in many ways, of the democratic process of our society—peaceful protests, but protests that could lead to imprisonment. And, of course, we have seen similar things recently on environmental issues.

I think that that is really a matter where, I suppose—. I suppose, ultimately, the power lying in the Senedd to accept a recommendation or to be the ultimate determinant is one factor. But I think the key there is actually the trigger. If the trigger is too low, it does encompass situations like that, and I think that's one of the things that has to be borne in mind.

You have raised a really important point, because I think that it is part of the way in which our society democratically operates, where protests have been taken to break the law on matters of conscience and so on. I think that, probably, the most effective way is the trigger, but one would hope that, if there were issues like that, it's how the committee would actually deal with them when the evidence came through, in terms of the recommendations that it would make.

So, I think that it is something that is really worth exploring further—how you would deal with that sort of situation. It might be that, basically, it's the trigger level. If the trigger is set at six months, then I think that you are probably excluding nearly all of those sorts of circumstances. But it probably needs to be scrutinised a bit further, looking at the factual evidence of what's happened in the past.

It depends, doesn't it? If we reduce the disqualification element down to six months, and then anything below six months would trigger, does that trigger automatically then trigger a recall or a petition or whatever process that we decide, or does it trigger a discussion by the standards committee to produce a report for the Senedd? So, is a lot of it to do with how the actual process would work? Maybe that's something that we can look into and see—. So, extrapolating what you were saying there, if the trigger was hit on a custodial sentence, that one would be beyond the control of the Senedd because the courts would make that distinction, rather than the standards committee, which would be involved in any sanction that involved over 10 days. So, there are two distinct issues there. If there's a very good chance that somebody did go to jail for a week, they would probably be in front of the standards committee anyway, but how is there a horse and cart and which way do they go around, and do they work in tandem? Any thoughts on that?

Well, I think and I think most people would argue that any criminal offence that occurs is a criminal offence, et cetera, and probably needs to be looked at and addressed in some ways as to the impact it has on the perception of the Senedd and the role of Senedd Members, and the perception of the public as well. I think that the key, really, is at what level do you set a trigger. If you set it too low, it begins to encompass all sorts of more complicated situations. Those are situations that can probably be dealt with by actions of the standards committee and the recommendations that it makes. Once you set a trigger and there's, for example, anyone with a sentence, suspended or otherwise, of, say, six months or more, then, really, that has to apply across the board, doesn't it? I find it difficult to think what the very exceptional circumstances might be that would justify something different happening.

I suppose one of the things you have to consider as well is whether there is a discretion in terms of the recommendation there, and what the circumstances of that discretion might be. Discretions are always very difficult in terms of things like disqualification. There is no discretion at the moment in terms of the 12-month period as it applies within Westminster and, indeed, within the Government of Wales Act, I think, in terms of the Senedd, so there's obviously a need for some deeper thought, and I think, also, other opinions as well on this.

Of course. Let's assume that a trigger has been hit, and one of those elements has happened, and that we are going through the process of a petition or another process. If we were having a recall petition—. We've had some evidence from lots of different witnesses, talking either about a two-stage process, similar to Westminster, where you have a petition followed by a by-election, or that you have a one-stop where, basically, you ask whether or not you want the person removed or not, and then those processes. Have you given any thought to that—whether or not Westminster has got it right—bearing in mind that we will be in a PR system from 2026 and the complexities or running a by-election in a closed list system?

The answer is that I've given quite a lot of thought to it, partly because that thinking triggered by the deception issue that's arisen within the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill, and it always brings me back to the issue of standards and recall. I don't think that the system that we're moving to would allow for by-elections. The way I see it really is this: a report is given to the standards committee, the standards committee considers that and goes through the appropriate steps, it reports to the Senedd, the Senedd then votes on the acceptance of that, and, once that happens, it triggers a process. I think the appropriate process then would be—. And I think the problem is in the terminology, because it's not so much a petition; it's more a sort of referendum, isn't it. What it would do is it would trigger a public vote, and the vote would be that the person should be removed, and the voting options would be to vote for that, to vote against that or to abstain. So, effectively, it is a referendum where the members of the public are made aware of the issue, the process is triggered, and they have their say and the individual candidate has their say. It is not a by-election process because there are no other candidates able to stand. If the majority vote is that the person should be removed, then obviously the next person on the list would be the person that automatically takes that particular place. That preserves, I think, the balance of voting from the Welsh general election. So, thinking what we call it—whether we call it a referendum, or maybe there's a better term to do it—it is not so much a petition because a petition is to ask for permission to do something, and it's not a by-election because there are no other candidates. So, it is a sort of referendum, in some ways, on the individual, as to whether the public want them to remain as a Senedd Member.

But there would be two candidates because the next person on the list would be the other candidate, potentially.

Except that candidate wouldn't be participating, and that only takes effect if the person is removed. So, it's a decision by the public: do you want this person to stay as a Senedd Member, and, if you don't, they will be removed? The fact that there would be someone—

Sorry, would a simple majority then be—?

I think there would have to be a threshold, and I think that's, obviously, a matter for the committee to consider. Thresholds are always difficult in votes, and we don't have a threshold in, for example, the police and crime commissioner elections, or any others. But I think it would be important that there was some threshold. I see the figure of 10 per cent being suggested in different places. It seems to me 10 per cent of a paired constituency is still quite a substantial number of people. I think that's something where I'd be very interested in the committee's thoughts around that, but I think that there should be a threshold.

In what you explained earlier, though, there'd be three options, but you're talking now as if it's a binary choice, or just one. How would you see it working? So, do you see it as a referendum where you've got two questions or a referendum where you've got one question?

I think the one question would be something along the lines of, 'Should So-and-so continue to represent you as a Member?'.

That then leads to a threshold, rather than—. Would you allow people to vote by proxy, by post?

I think you would have to apply the same standards as you do for a normal Welsh election.

And would you have that on one specific date, similar to a by-election, or would you have it open for a number of weeks, similar to a recall petition in Westminster?

The answer is 'I don't know'. There's an argument that would say that it should be the same as happened with the Welsh election, with the original election that put the person in position. But, of course, as you know, one of the options to the Elections and Elected Bodies (Wales) Bill that we have going forward is exploring the options of different ways of voting, and eventually online voting. So, I think it's one of those things that, as technology and capacity moves forward, in any election that takes place in the future, should be done on the best way of maximising participation. I don't think it should be something that is static, that is staid. If, in a number of years' time, we're able to do online voting or voting in different places at different times, and so on, then why shouldn't we do that? So, I think the maximisation of participation in any public referendum of this sort is probably the underpinning principle.

And you said earlier that 10 per cent feels about right, because, in a paired constituency, that would still be a substantial vote. If it reaches that 10 per cent, if it's held over time, when you reach the 10 per cent do you stop, or do you keep it going? Any thoughts on that?

No, I don't really have thoughts on that because I haven't really been able to consider the views of others in terms of what would be an appropriate threshold, just that I think it probably is important that there is some threshold. You wouldn't want something that is so low and where the difference between 'yes' and 'no' might be so marginal that it discredits the democratic process to some extent. I think it's one of those things to give further thought to. My gut feeling, really, is that there should be a threshold. What that threshold should be, well, you don't want any restriction on the vote being able to be effective, and you could say you shouldn't have any threshold whatsoever—we don't have thresholds in elections—so, therefore, those who choose to participate, et cetera, will determine the outcome. I just have a feeling that, as we move down this road, at least some threshold would be beneficial. I think, with postal voting, for example, it almost guarantees that there is a certain level of threshold, but it remains to be seen.

And because it's a paired constituency, would you have a threshold of 10 per cent in one and in the other, or 10 per cent overall, or whatever the threshold would be?

I think you'd have to do it across the board. That's my gut feeling on it. Obviously, it's a matter for the committee to explore, but I think having differentials in one area and another poses complications that shouldn't be there.

And an alternative voting system or an STV system for a by-election is something that you wouldn't consider.

Well, we looked at this, didn't we, very much with the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill about different voting systems. I think there is a difficulty when you have a particular system that achieves a certain balanced outcome, depending upon the votes, of then introducing a different system that actually can change that balance of the original election. I think that would probably be wrong. So, my feeling is that it should be, really, as I've described, that you move to the person next on the list, et cetera; you don't start introducing new or different voting systems.

And on that list system, I'm assuming—and you'll correct me if I'm wrong—that it should be the initial list that that person was elected upon, rather than if that person had changed parties or changed to be sitting as an independent. So, it would, effectively, be the way they were elected in the first instance that would determine the next person.

That, in my view, would be logical. I don't know whether there are reasonable arguments as to why that shouldn't apply, but it seems to me that, in removing someone, what you're not doing is initiating an event that changes the political nature or the balance within the democratic institution. What you are doing is basically enabling someone to be replaced whilst retaining that balance.

But the only alternative then is if somebody was elected as an independent. Do you then leave that seat vacant because that changes the balance?

I think probably that is the only option. I can't really see any way around that. We did look at that very, very carefully, didn't we, and we discussed it during the process of the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, and I think we left it, firstly, that it was likely to be a very rare occasion, and, secondly, that there was no other way, really, of doing it. So, if you had that situation or even if a list was extinguished and there was no-one left on it, then all you would do is you would have to leave those particular seats vacant, and that would then be dealt with when the next Welsh general election took place.

Okay. Well, I think that's exhausted my questions this morning. Thank you.

Thank you very much, Pred. I'll bring in Mark Drakeford now. Mark.

Chair, thank you. Counsel General, I've got two slightly detailed questions arising from your exchanges with Peredur, and then I've got a couple of broader questions. If I do the detailed ones first, Peredur asked you about the question of, in a paired constituency, if there were to be a vote amongst people in that paired constituency on whether or not to remove somebody, whether you would need to get to threshold in both constituencies or just overall, and you said, if I understood you correctly, that you thought it should be overall, as it would be complex to do anything different. But do you think there is a respectable case for saying that, actually, fairness should trump anxieties about complexity here, because it is possible that the Electoral Commission will pair constituencies of very different character? Last week we talked, for example, about the possibility of a pairing between Blaenau Gwent and Monmouth, which can be contiguous constituencies in some of their length. Could you not have an issue that was very concerning to people in one of those constituencies, but really wasn't of great concern to the other constituents, and unless you have a threshold that applies to both, people in one half could actually determine the outcome for the other half? So, that seemed to me an argument for fairness—it is more complex, I can see that—but is the argument for a threshold in both halves one of fairness, and should we be thinking about that as well?

Well, on that question, the answer is, 'I think there are arguments both ways on it'; I think you're absolutely right on that. The argument in terms of simplicity and the fact that, I think, when people are elected to the Senedd as part of a list, there aren't any thresholds; it's basically the composition of all the votes across the board. That probably justifies saying, 'Look, if you do set a threshold'—and, of course, there is an argument that you shouldn't have a threshold; you just take what comes—'you just basically take the composite on the paired constituency.' But I accept equally so there are issues that could arise—as you say, there are differences in areas and so on. It's difficult to think what the circumstances might be. I mean, we can speculate in terms of different types of circumstances that might be of more interest to an industrial rather than a rural constituency, or all sorts of others. I don't have a definitive view one way or the other. My gut feeling is that, probably, if you're taking a paired constituency, you take it across the board. But, listen, I'll be really interested in the thinking of the committee on this in terms of how to do this, and I think, obviously, the input of evidence from other parties with expertise in this area is something that would be of value as well. So, I think the case can be made both ways on it.

Thank you very much. My second detailed question is to do with the party list. So, let's assume for a moment that the arguments you've made this morning would prevail, there would be no by-elections, but in effect it's the next person off the list that would come into the Senedd, what if the next available person on the list has left that political party—

I think—

—and moved to another party? Does that person then get skipped?

Well, I think the reality is you have to go down the list. If someone has left the political party, I think, effectively, they've left their party list and would lose eligibility on that. But it is one of those things I think you just—. In legislating in this area, you have to try and encompass all those sorts of circumstances, and if the underpinning principle is that by removing something, what you're not doing is seeking to change the balance of the democratic institution overall and the balance of the outcome determined by that election, then if someone has moved from one party to another, it seems to me that it's perfectly right to say they would not be the next person on that list.

Thank you, Chair. Do you want to take Peredur next, Chair, because I think it's on this point?

Yes, go on, Pred.

Sorry, if I may. Just on this point, regardless of whether or not the gender quota Bill goes through, there's a very good chance that parties will decide the zip within their lists anyway, because it's something that is a matter of principle. For example, if somebody was recalled and removed from the Senedd, and that person might be male on that list, next person would be female, that would probably do what we want it to do within supporting women especially into the Senedd. If it was the other way around, would there be any discretion available to parties to then choose the next person they would like from that list or not?

I think we're getting to the realms now of how simple do we want to keep the process, to what extent do we want to specify the balance in terms of gender and so on, and I think it's really a matter for the committee to consider how that might work. And, again, listen, there are arguments in favour of what you're suggesting; I just think that once you start going down a road where you have a list and you start trying to look at circumstances to change the order of that list, it certainly becomes a lot more complicated because then, one, there's a problem if you start putting in discretions, but also other circumstances that might arise. Mark Drakeford mentioned the position of what happens if someone has changed party, and I think that is certainly very understandable. The issue of gender, of course, becomes another factor. You might have someone who's no longer on the electoral register and doesn't want to come back on it. I think, under the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill, of course, we've provided a framework for a period of time for someone to come back on to the list, so you'd need to consider how that might interreact with it, some of those details.

I think those are the things that need to be carefully considered, certainly in terms of putting together a Bill, scrutinising it, but also making sure that it's workable, understandable and has clarity. Sometimes, when you do that, you have to move away from some of the complicated discretions that you might want in the world of perfection. So, I suppose my answer to that is those are valid considerations. I'll be interested in what the committee wants to recommend on that when you've explored that further because I don't think it's an easy choice; you are swapping the simplicity of the system I initially suggested by putting in a number of alternative criteria and so on, and there are advantages and disadvantages to that.

Certainly, as we move into new systems and so on, I very much favour the issue of clarity and then a subsequent review, as we're doing with a lot of our legislation; after the first set of elections and so on, there will be reviews to see how things have worked and so on. So, I don't really have a satisfactory answer for you on that, I'm afraid, other than those are things that obviously need to be looked at very carefully in terms of the devil in the detail of any legislation that might come forward.

Thank you. Back to you then, Mark.

Thank you, Chair. So, to the broader question, Counsel General, it's a two-part question, and I'll give you the first part first, which is many witnesses have said to us that the Westminster system has worked reasonably well and is essentially sound, but it has a process in which there are internal thresholds that are set by the Westminster Parliament through its standards procedures, and if somebody falls foul of those thresholds, there's then a two-stage process: a petitions process, followed by a by-election. We've been hearing evidence that suggests that given that we're not to have a by-election, that we should have a single process post the Senedd's own consideration. That would mean that the Senedd's thresholds would have to be robust, and the processes by which someone was assessed—their behaviour assessed against those triggers—would have to be careful and make sure that they observed the human rights of the individual concerned and so on. But once the threshold has been met, is there not a case for just a single stage in which we then say to the public, 'Do you want this person to continue or not?' What's the point of a petition on that issue followed, essentially, by a by-election—well, a further vote; it wouldn't be a by-election—on exactly the same issue? Do you think a two-stage system is still preferable, or should we be thinking of a one-stage process?

I think that the one-stage process is the one, that is, that the Senedd has voted to accept a recommendation from the standards committee, and that basically therefore means that you move forward to a vote. Because we really can't provide for a by-election—. I think the problem is in the use of the term 'petition', because you're no longer then petitioning for an event, et cetera; you're actually going straight into a public vote, and the public vote and the one that I would—. Certainly, my thinking at the moment, and that's without the benefits that you have now of considering all the evidence that's coming through, is that the appropriate way to do it would be that you would be saying to the public, 'This person, as a result of events, has triggered a—whatever you want to call it—referendum or a vote by you as to whether you want this person to continue as a Senedd Member,' and the vote would then be the 'for', 'against' or 'abstain', and the issue for you also is to consider the issue of a threshold and if that threshold is achieved, if there is one, then that person basically, if the vote goes against, is removed, and the next person on the list takes the place.

Thank you. That's very clear, Mick. A final question from me. I'm leaving the issues of a threshold aside for now, because you rehearsed those very well with Peredur. So, my question, then, is—. So, we've heard a witness this morning describe that one stage as an enhanced petition process, so I think they had in mind something quite akin to the petitions process. So, a ballot will be open for a number of weeks, people will be able to go to a number of polling stations and cast their vote whether or not to retain that person or that they would leave the Senedd and be replaced. But, last week, we heard someone who described that single process more akin to a by-election process—a single day in which you hold it as you would a by-election, in which you all turn up to the polling station on that one day, or have postal votes, and then cast your vote for and against that person's retention. If we were to have a single process, do you have any views as to whether the merits of the Westminster petition process, the longer process, or the more traditional by-election process, would be preferable?

I think my preference would be a system that facilitates the maximisation of participation. I think that is something, actually, that equally applies to our elections themselves, and that is of course why we have piloted from time to time, looking at voting on different days over a longer period of time, and potential other options in the future. So, the merit to a single day is that it brings things to a conclusion very quickly, but of course I think single-day voting, certainly in my view, is actually quite restrictive. It excludes people for a period of time. I think there are advantages to being able to vote over a period of time. I think this is an area I think, again—. I'm not trying to avoid the issue. My preference would be that the option would be what would actually best maximise participation within that decision-making process, and if the conclusion you came to was, well, to be honest, holding it over a longer period of time with different ways of voting and so on, if necessary, that would be what I would go for. As long as it is robust and it is compliant with all the things that we would expect from an election process, that would be my preference. These are ultimately matters about the ownership of the people in terms of the electoral processes. I think what might happen, though, is if you do it for this, the argument would equally be, then, 'Why aren't you doing it for the broader Welsh general election?' and so on, because I think equally those arguments apply to the initial elections as well. I don't know if that doesn't fudge it a bit, but it gives my thinking on that.

Thank you. Do you mind, Chair, if I add one final—? It's an observation, perhaps, more than a question. We've heard about the trade-off between the petitions system and the one-day system. I think we were told last week that in the Belfast case, the one that didn't meet the threshold, there were only two stations open during the longer petition period, whereas I think we were told there were 96 polling stations on one day. So, there's a bit of a trade-off, I would guess, for us to think about in terms of the Counsel General's basic point around which method promotes greater participation. It would be, I think, unfeasible—in a financial and other sense—for a local authority to keep a full range of one-day venues open over three or six weeks. So, there's an issue there for us to think about against the Counsel General's test of which of these two approaches allows the greater participation by citizens.

I think the more expensive the process, the more that begins to actually discredit it as well, so you do want something that is viable, and you do want to look at the alternative voting options on the basis that firstly, don't forget, hopefully, we'll have a system in due course of automatic registration, so everyone will be on the electoral register. There is an option, for example, to say that everyone should have a postal vote—you don't have to ask for it, you automatically have a postal vote and everyone is distributed with that postal vote. That would enable a different option in terms of holding it within a far narrower space of time, and if you didn't want to do it by postal vote, there would be certain centres where you could go to do it. Maybe at some stage in the not-too-distant future, I think it's likely we'll be looking at online voting. So, I think all those are valid things that need to be thought about.

Thanks, Chair.

Thank you, Mark. I'll bring in Pred and then Natasha.

Just on this, wearing a different committee Chair's hat, I suppose, the financial aspects will need to be looked into carefully, and, as Mark said, that balance between the two.

On that financial and possibly other aspect as well, should the person be allowed to campaign? Because I think there are specific rules around recall petitions that mean that political campaigning is tightly monitored. Just on this process that we've been talking about this morning, do you have any thoughts about the person being removed, or likewise the other way, possibly promoting somebody who would be the second person on that list, whoever that may be? Is there something there that needs to be regulated well to make sure that it's fair?

It's a really good question, and I'm not really sure I've thought through myself what the appropriate answer to that is. I suppose the starting point would be if you're putting someone on a petition where there is a for and against vote, the question is what information is being put out to the people in terms of when they come to make that decision. We might all know what the recommendation of the standards committee is, et cetera. There would need to be some sort of information that goes out with, I suppose, the voting ballots, as to, 'This is why you're having a vote, and this is what your choice is'. You could encompass with that a right to the individual to put a statement with that saying why, et cetera.

The answer is I don't really know. I haven't really formed a view on that, only that logic would seem to imply that there should be at least some capacity that if people are having a vote, they need to have proper information that enables them to exercise that particular vote. I think that's probably more incumbent on a system where you are having, effectively, a referendum vote that's determinative, rather than a by-election. In a by-election, naturally, all the rules would apply as normal in terms of different candidates standing and so on, so those options would be there. Under this system, you've raised one of the things that needs to be thought about. I think that would be one of the things where we would need to engage with and consider with, I think, the Electoral Commission as well. I'm sure they would be very important advisers in that respect.

Thank you, Pred. Natasha.

Thank you, Chair. Counsel General, thank you so much for the answers that you've been giving so far. I've been listening to them intently. We all know we're halfway through this term, we've got another few years to go before the next election. In 2026, we've got more Members coming in. Obviously, I understand that the committee are doing everything that they can to try and ensure that we get all of the information together and provide it to you to be able to implement this. But of the people that we've been speaking to so far, many of them have actually said that the Westminster model is a good model—it's not perfect, nothing in this world is, but it's quite a good structure. Do you see any likelihood or any feasibility that we may, at least, be able to have a structural skeleton in place before we go into the next election for the system to be implemented further, potentially, in the next term? Because we're doing all of this work, and, like I said, with more Members, unfortunately, and I'm not being distrustful of anyone, there is the likelihood of more risk for such a situation to occur where a recall may be needed. So, I just wanted to ask you: time wise and research wise, is there a likelihood that this could be in place quicker than we perhaps anticipate?

The answer is, first, the implementation, I suppose, whether it's the committee that brings forward the legislation, or whether it's the model we've had for the Senedd reform legislation, that the Welsh Government does it on the recommendations of. It seems to me this is a matter that's in the ultimate ownership of the Senedd. The commitment given from Welsh Government, from the First Minister, is that we would like to see this legislation in place by 2026. I think that is the public expectation, as well. That's the commitment that's been given. I think that what has happened in Westminster, and, indeed, what is happening in Scotland, all provide—. I think we're all thinking along the same routes. Westminster, of course, has a skeleton version that I think is the one that we are looking at working on, but adapting to the specific Welsh circumstances.

It would also be helpful, in fact, if you also looked at the issues that have arisen within the elections and elected bodies Bill. That is something that will be coming up at Stage 3, and that is the issue of deception, because that's come into those discussions as well, how that might be dealt with as part of this legislation, as part, I think, of a standard. I suppose I'll put my neck on the line at the moment and say I don't think criminalisation is the way that it actually works, I think it's probably unworkable in terms of that, but we'll deal with that at Stage 3 later on. But the reason I raise it now is because I think it is relevant within the framework of what this legislation might do.

The Welsh Government is committed for this to be in place, and we'll do everything we can. I don't think it is necessarily going to be a long, complex Bill, because the skeletons, as you say, are already there. It's a question of deciding all those fine points, making sure the proper scrutiny and engagement have taken place and then producing a Bill that we could have in place prior to 2026. I think that's what we all want to achieve, that's the commitment we've given, but, obviously, much depends on the speed and the ability of the standards committee to come forward with that and with clear recommendations in terms of legislation and how that legislation is to be put together. I've had those discussions already with the First Minister, and I'm also giving considerable consideration to this in view of the issue that's arisen with the elections and elected bodies Bill, because I think this legislation is the appropriate place where that can be properly legislated on.

Thank you so much, Counsel General. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Natasha, and thank you, Counsel General. It's been an incredibly useful session with you this morning. We'd like to thank you for appearing before us today. A copy of the transcript will be provided for you as soon as possible, so it can be checked for factual accuracy. That brings us to the end of this evidence session.

I propose, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), that we resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content to agree the motion? Members are content. In that case, we will now continue in private.