Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

Aelodau, fe wnawn ni symud yn syth ymlaen at y papurau i'w nodi—eitem 3. Mae gennym ni 3.1 am Baden-Württemberg. Mae 3.2 am yr Oriel Gelf Gyfoes Genedlaethol, a hefyd mae gennym ni 3.3 ar Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru a'r adolygiad buddsoddi sy'n ymwneud â hwnnw. Eitem 3.4—cyllideb ddrafft Llywodraeth Cymru 2024-25; 3.5—cydsyniad deddfwriaethol: y Bil Diogelu Data a Gwybodaeth Ddigidol; a 3.6—honiadau yn ymwneud ag Undeb Rygbi Cymru. Ydy'r Aelodau yn fodlon inni nodi'r papurau hynny? Ydych.

Ocê, felly, os yw pawb yn hapus, symudwn at eitem 4. Rwy'n cynnig o dan Rheol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 5, 6, 7, 8 a 10 y cyfarfod heddiw—

Chair.

Yes, Carolyn.

Sorry to come in there, but just regarding the national underground asset register, would that be going to other committees as well—the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee? I know Llyr is here and he's the Chair of the committee.

We can check that, Carolyn. That's a good question. We'll check that.

Diolch.

Thank you for raising that.

So, ydy'r Aelodau yn fodlon inni wahardd y cyhoedd o'r eitemau hynny heddiw? Ydych. Ocê, fe wnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni'n breifat, ond ar gyfer y bobl sydd yn gwylio, jest i chi gael gwybod y byddwn ni nôl yn fyw ar gyfer y sesiwn dystiolaeth nesaf a bydd hynna am 1 o'r gloch. Ond fe wnawn ni aros i glywed nawr ein bod ni'n breifat.

Croeso nôl. Dŷn ni'n symud at eitem 9. Eto, dŷn ni'n edrych ar ddiwylliant a'r berthynas newydd gyda'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, a nawr dŷn ni'n cael sesiwn dystiolaeth gyda chyrff ymbarél. Gwnaf ofyn i'n tystion gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y record. Gwnaf fynd o'r chwith i'r dde. Felly, gwnaf fynd at Ruth yn gyntaf.

Hello. My name is Ruth Cocks, and I am director of the British Council here in Wales.

Lovely. Tom.

I'm Tom Kiehl. I'm the interim chief executive officer of UK Music, which is the umbrella body for the music industry, representing all the various component parts and creator organisations, collecting societies, music publishers and record companies.

Lovely. Thank you so much.

Ac Eluned.

Prynhawn da. Eluned Haf, pennaeth Celfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru yng Nghyngor Celfyddydau Cymru.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Gwnawn ni fynd yn syth mewn i gwestiynau, os yw hynny'n iawn gyda chi. Gallwch chi osod mas plis, neu ym mha ffordd byddwch chi'n mesur faint o waith trawsffiniol y gwnaeth gweithwyr diwylliannol o Gymru cyn inni adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd? A sut mae hwnna wedi newid ers hynny? A beth ydy'r sgileffeithiau mwyaf rŷch chi wedi gweld ers inni adael? Pwy bynnag sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf.

Efallai mai fi ydy'r cyntaf, neu Tom.

Shall I go first?

Y peth cyntaf i'w ddweud ydy bod yna angen edrych ar le mae data yn dod ohono fo. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfoeth o ddata cyn inni adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd o ran rhaglenni ac ariannu a beth sydd wedi cael ei wario yng Nghymru. Ond, wrth gwrs, dydy hynny ddim yn cynrychioli symudedd artistiaid, a dydy o ddim chwaith yn angenrheidiol yn rhywbeth sydd yn gyson ar hyd pedair gwlad y Deyrnas Unedig, heb sôn am 27 gwlad yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna angen ystyried data. Wedi dweud hynny, mae yna gyrff, fel UK Music, Independent Society of Musicians ac eraill, wedi gwneud lot o waith yn benodol ar gerddorion ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, ac felly, ar y pwynt yna, dwi'n mynd i ofyn i Tom ddod mewn efo mwy o'r manylion o'r sector cerddoriaeth, efallai.

Sure, certainly. Thank you. The EU is the biggest market for the music industry. It accounts for around 50 per cent of creator incomes, so that's a significant proportion. What we have found from analysing—. We've done some recent surveys in the last couple of years to ascertain the impact of Brexit on the music industry and creators in particular. We looked at it in terms of engagements and work opportunities and also in terms of incomes, and what we've seen is that one in three people who responded to our survey—these are musicians, creators—have seen their incomes impacted by Brexit, and, of those, 82 per cent have seen significant decreases. So, it has already had a very profound and damaging impact on a vast amount of creators and musicians and their ability to tour. So, that is obviously significant for us as a sector. In addition to that, we've also worked with an organisation, the Independent Society of Musicians—they have also done a recent survey that indicated that 47 per cent of people are now receiving less work than they did prior to Brexit. So, again, in terms of opportunity to work, that is really significant, and 27 per cent of those people are actually saying that they don't have any work opportunities at all now, it's simply dried up. So, the impact of Brexit on our sector is profound.

We don't have specific figures in terms of the granular level in terms of the Welsh impact, but it's something that we can work with and maybe provide the committee with at a subsequent point. I would say that the actual Welsh sector—putting the Welsh sector in context—pre pandemic, there was a survey that indicated that the Welsh music industry is worth around £243 million in gross value added to the economy and also employs around 8,000 people, and the live sector is worth something like £115 million in terms of that. So, a significant sector and one we all want to continue to ensure flourishes.

Thank you so much, Tom. Before I bring Llyr Gruffydd in, who's got a supplementary, while you were both speaking, we were joined by some very welcome guests, Dr Paul Thompson, chairman of the British Council and Kate Ewart-Biggs OBE, deputy chief executive of the British Council. You're very welcome to be with us, in the gallery, this afternoon. Thank you very much for being with us. Now, I know that Llyr had a question.

Ie. Dwi jest eisiau holi, mi glywon ni yn y sesiwn flaenorol y bore yma fod yna ddau beth sydd eu hangen i wneud yr achos dros newid y sefyllfa bresennol, sef mae yna naratif, ac mae hwnna'n eithaf cryf ar hyn o bryd, ond mae angen data hefyd. Rŷch chi wedi dyfynnu peth data—pa mor robust yw'r data yna? Roedd y samples—pa mor sylweddol oedden nhw? Roeddech chi'n awgrymu, efallai, fod yna ragor y gallwch chi ei wneud. Ydy hwnna'n rhywbeth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd, neu rywbeth y byddech chi'n licio i ddigwydd?

I mean, certainly, in terms of the sample side, that was significant—it was over 2,000 people, which I think is a statistically significant survey. So, I think that's pretty robust. Yes, we probably have the data, we just need to analyse it a little bit more to draw out the particular regional variances, so I think the raw materials are there and we can provide that further.

Ocê, diolch.

Diolch. Before we move on to Carolyn—

Allaf i ofyn i chi, yn y panel yn y sesiwn yr oedden ni wedi cael y bore yma, roedden ni wedi trafod rhai o'r pethau llai tangible o ran y cyfleon coll a phethau fel yna. Faint o ofid ydy hwnna i chi o ran y colledion efallai dŷn ni ddim yn gallu eu mesur nhw, neu dŷn ni ddim yn gallu mesur beth dŷn ni wedi colli mas arno fe, bron?

Dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna yn andros o gonsérn i ni i gyd. Mae effaith Brexit wedi bod yn ddifrifol ar y sector yma. Roedd hynny'n rhywbeth roedden ni wedi adrodd i'r pwyllgor yma nôl yn ystod y cyfnod transition. Mae gennym ni, wrth gwrs, beth manylion o ran y rhaglenni sydd wedi cael eu colli trwy Creative Europe, er enghraifft, a pha mor bwysig oedd o, nid yn unig o ran sut roedden ni'n gweithio fel partneriaid ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig er mwyn cael y gorau i Gymru, boed hynny ar gyfer yr ochr media, ond yn ein hachos ni, yr ochr diwylliant hefyd, a bod hynny wedyn yn bwydo i mewn i rwydweithiau hynod bwysig Ewropeaidd a oedd yn cael eu harwain o Gymru, fel Literature Across Frontiers, er enghraifft, ond hefyd i'n cwmnïau ni ac i'n hartistiaid unigol ni.

Mae gennych chi dwr o gyflwyniadau sydd wedi cael eu rhoi i mewn yn eich pecynnau chi, gan artistiaid fel Jones the Dance, NoFit State, BBC National Orchestra of Wales, Opera Cenedlaethol Cymru—cwmnïau ac unigolion sydd wir wedi cael eu heffeithio'n fawr, rŵan, gan yr angen i fod yn gwybod sut i fynd o gwmpas gwneud y gwaith a chael yr adnoddau i wneud hynny. Ond, wrth gwrs, ar ben y ffaith ein bod ni wedi gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, mae costau wedi cynyddu'n aruthrol. Mae'r gwariant ar y celfyddydau yng Nghymru, fel yr oedd Dafydd Rhys, ein prif weithredwr ni, wedi'i ddweud ar Front Row rai wythnosau nôl, wedi mynd lawr ers 2010 o 37 y cant mewn grant in aid. So, dŷch chi'n adio hwn i gyd at ei gilydd ac mae o'n rhyw fath o storm berffaith lle mae'n mynd i wneud o'n hynod anodd i'n hartistiaid ni a'r cyrff sy'n eu cefnogi nhw i fedru goresgyn y storm.

Ie, diolch am hynna.

Ruth, I know you wanted to come in.

Well, it's a simiar point, really. Obviously, there's a loss of funds, and it's not just programmes like Creative Europe, but also the structural funds from which the arts and culture sector in Wales profited greatly—we've got some statistics on that, if you're interested—and the rural development plan as well. So multisources of funding, but it's also around the connection with peers and the insights, the creativity and the innovation you get through those cross-programme-working multicountry, multipartner, insights into another culture, connections with other countries, small nations in the EU who are bilingual, like us, who have more similarities with Wales in terms of small nations. Those kinds of cross-peer learning and informal networks are invaluable, and our evidence suggests that the generation I grew up in has these informal networks because we were part of these EU programmes. However, the current generation won't have that and, in 10 years' time, they will have died out, as well as the loss of formal networks. The British Council is still a member of EU National Institutes for Culture, but we've had to change our status, for example. We're still a member of other formal networks that were part of the EU, but, often, the status is changed, the financing changes, and then that makes a difference. So, it's not just the funding; it's the informal networks, as well as the life experience that comes with that, and then, of course, the formal networks that we're just not a part of in the same way as we were.

Thank you. Were you indicating that you wanted to come in, Tom?

Just to add to that, from our perspective, particularly from the commercial sector, the bigger organisations, the bigger acts will find workarounds, and I think that's something that needs to be stressed. Obviously, bureaucracy increases and costs increase, but I think one of the big challenges is for the up-and-coming acts and those who actually don't have those established fan bases. Previously, they had that ease of movement, going over to Europe, and were able to perform with limited bureaucracy and costs going behind it. I think that's one of our big—. In terms of opportunity loss, the fact is that it's a smaller opportunity for people in Wales and elsewhere.

Thank you.

Diolch i'r tri ohonoch chi am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Carolyn Thomas, sydd ar-lein

Thank you. Could you quantify what the increased administrative burden and financial burden look like?

I've got individual examples in our submission. We work with a number of partners, who also, I think, submitted separately—NoFit State circus, for example, and BBC National Orchestra of Wales. Some of the key areas that have changed are things like preparing a carnet, particularly for companies that have large equipment, big pieces of instruments, et cetera, to use. So, I think NoFit State said that they have estimated a £28,000 increase in human resource and insurance against indemnities for taking their carnet across, and it took six people three weeks to prepare just for one tour.

In terms of visas, because of the 90-day, 180-day rule and how you have to come back to the country before being able to do that, they weren't able to extend certain tours that they would have done for summer bookings, and that led to a loss of income of about £120,000 and a reduced gross profit of the tour of about £40,000.

Equally, employing EU nationals to work in Wales has increased—they have a sponsoring status, and they had that before for non-EU nationals; they now have it for EU nationals. But even things like health insurance, which was covered previously via the EU, they're estimating £1,305 per person, per employee. Ultimately, their touring has witnessed a 40 per cent reduction in profit margins. I've got more, but I will hand over, because I know that's just one example.

I'd like to talk about orchestras, and they've had this issue with cabotage, the rules around cabotage and the number of movements that trucks can do. A lot of those orchestras own their own fleet, and so, actually, under the cabotage rules, can no longer operate as they had previously. So, they're having to find workarounds for that, and that's costing something like £20,000 in addition for an orchestra to tour the EU in order to be able to travel and make the stops necessary.

In addition to that area, like carnets, just to illustrate some of the further points, and I think this is a Welsh-specific example too, Holyhead doesn't have a designated carnet port. Certainly, the port itself does not have a designated place where the carnets can be processed, so they have to be processed elsewhere. So, if you're a band or an artist, you've got to book in advance, and that will, obviously, have the increase—that has to be 24 hours, I think, before you actually embark on your journey. So, going from Holyhead to Dublin and the kind of touring aspect there, that is significant.

Thank you.

Carolyn, I think Eluned just wanted to add something.

Yes, the other thing I would say as well is the additional burden on the public purse in Wales to just be able to support our artists to carry on being members of networks, as Ruth rightly said. We're really prioritising keeping the membership of IETM, On the Move, Culture Action Europe, and I could reel off a number of other networks and showcase events that we support artists to attend. But, obviously, in the past, dancers like Jones the Dance would have had their funding from Creative Europe. Our companies and our individuals who used to have money coming directly to them from Creative Europe now apply to us in the Arts Council of Wales for that funding, and we are unable to sustain the level of demand to keep our artists involved.

Ruth, did you want to come back in?

Yes, going back to the point around orchestras, from conversations with BBC National Orchestra of Wales, they have to now pay quite expensive experts under the CITES rule, to verify the kind of wood that’s in each instrument, which comes at a cost—every single piece of equipment has to have a certificate to say there are no endangered species et cetera, whereas, previously, musicians could kind of clearly walk on. Also, there was a good example where they performed in Germany, and the rules around taxation and income tax just weren’t clear, and so they were in conversations with the German Government about tax that had been withheld. So, they hadn’t received their full pay for a performance, and it’s just a complicated area where the rules aren’t clear, and each individual artist is having to negotiate with each individual country and what the agreement was with that country with the UK Government. In NoFit State’s case, I think they went back to an agreement from 1990, when they were working with the Czech Republic, because that was the most recent agreement they could find around taxing parameters and working with the Czech Republic.

Gosh. Diolch. Did you have another question, Carolyn?

No, no, thank you. You said you had more data and statistics, but more than you can actually speak on at the moment, so we’d welcome any extra, if you’d like to send it to us for us to look at afterwards. Thank you very much.

Diolch, Carolyn. Yes, please, if you could send that through in writing, that would be very useful.

Mi wnawn ni symud at Llyr.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Allwch chi ddweud wrthym ni, efallai—hynny yw, rŷch chi wedi sôn dipyn am ystadegau yn barod ac efallai fy mod i’n gofyn am ragor eto—ynglŷn â pha effaith mae’r berthynas newydd yma gyda’r Undeb Ewropeaidd wedi’i chael ar hyfywedd ariannol y proffesiynau creadigol yng Nghymru, oherwydd berig ein bod ni’n sôn am unigolion weithiau, ond yr hyfywedd ariannol ehangach?

Dwi’n mynd yn ôl i’r ateb cyntaf y gwnes i ei roi: nid jest Brexit sy’n effeithio ar hyn, ond faint o arian cyhoeddus sy’n cael ei wario ar y celfyddydau yng Nghymru. Dwi’n meddwl fy mod i’n iawn yn dweud mai 0.15 y cant o’r gyllideb sy’n cael ei wario ar y celfyddydau, tra'i fod, yn yr Alban, yn 0.5 y cant, ac, yn Lloegr, 0.6 y cant. Mae rhai gwledydd yn gwario mwy, ar lefel Ewropeaidd. Mae'r Ffindir, er enghraifft, yn gwario dros 2 y cant, so mae hwnna’n rhoi darlun i chi o le mae’r celfyddydau arni'n barod. Mae Creative Europe a rhaglenni ariannu eraill, gan gynnwys rhaglenni sydd wedi ariannu y rhwydwaith eang o ganolfannau celfyddydol anhygoel sydd gennym ni yng Nghymru, wedi dod trwodd o Objective 1 a rhaglenni sydd wedi bod ers hynny. Mae effaith hynny wedi bod yn eithaf mawr, ond rydyn ni ddim ond yn gwybod beth dydyn ni ddim yn gallu ei wario arno fo rŵan yng nghyd-destun beth a wariwyd yn ystod cyfnod yr Undeb Ewropeaidd. A beth sydd gynnon ni ddim, na dim modd o’i wneud ar hyn o bryd, ydy data am beth fuasai wedi gallu bod, neu beth efallai ddylai fod, a dwi'n meddwl bod diffyg data ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig oherwydd rydyn ni i gyd, fel cynghorau celfyddydau, yn gyfrifol am wahanol fathau o gelfyddyd neu greadigrwydd; dydyn ni ddim yr un peth.

Ond yr un peth fyddwn i'n dweud sydd wedi hwyluso symudedd artistiaid, os hoffwch chi, ydy gallu cydweithio ar ddarparu gwybodaeth. Nid ydy o’n berffaith o gwbl, a does gennym ni ddim yr adnoddau sydd eu hangen i wneud hynny, ond mae Arts Infopoint UK, y wybodfan rydyn ni wedi helpu ei setio i fyny yma yng Nghymru, yn cael ei gydariannu ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig ac yn rhan o rwydwaith On the Move, sydd yn un o’r prif rwydweithiau rhyngwladol ar gyfer cefnogi symudedd artistiaid. Mae’r rhwydwaith hwnnw yn un sydd yn rhoi yr intel rydyn ni ei angen—nid jest i ni, ond ar draws y celfyddydau—ac yn cefnogi symudedd i mewn i’r 27 gwlad. Dyw pob gwlad ddim efo desg, ond mae gennym ni rwydwaith, ac mae'r fforwm yna'n dod i Gaernarfon, i Galeri, ym mis Ebrill, a dwi'n meddwl y buasai'n ddifyr iawn i gael y pwyllgor yma, efallai, yn ymuno efo rhan o hynny, oherwydd mae yna 80 o'r gwybodfannau yma'n mynd i fod yn dod i Gymru, i drafod rhai o'r heriau yma.

Ocê. Un peth ro'n i eisiau jest mynd ar ei ôl, efallai, oedd sut mae'r amgylchiadau, fel ag y maen nhw nawr, yn effeithio yn wahanol ar ymarferwyr ar wahanol gyfnodau yn eu gyrfaoedd, oherwydd, fel lleygwr—a gallwch chi fy nghywiro i; plîs gwnewch—byddwn i'n tybio bod dibyniaeth ar bres Ewropeaidd yn fwy ar gychwyn y siwrnai yna efallai, a wedyn bod y cyfleoedd o deithio a'r incwm sy'n dod yn sgil hynny yn fwy nes ymlaen. Efallai fy mod i'n gorgyffredinoli, dwi ddim yn gwybod. Dwi jest eisiau deall—yn hytrach na jest yr effaith gyffredinol, mae e'n fwy subtle na hynny, yn dibynnu ar le ŷch chi yn eich gyrfa hefyd, am wn i.

Ydy, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl bod hynna'n deg dweud i gyd.

Ocê, iawn.

Dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n anodd iawn i artistiaid ifanc deithio rŵan a bod efo'r gefnogaeth sydd ei hangen arnyn nhw i fedru jest ymdopi efo'r her o weithio’n rhyngwladol. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny’n sicr, ond dwi'n meddwl bod rhaglenni Ewropeaidd yn gyffredinol yn rhai reit gymhleth i fod yn rhan ohonyn nhw. Ac mae'r infrastructure yma wedi cael ei setio i fyny dros gyfnod o 30 mlynedd ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig a sut rydyn ni wedi bod yn gweithio efo partneriaid. Dyw hwnna i gyd ddim wedi'i golli, wrth gwrs, achos rydyn ni'n dal i weithio efo rhwydweithiau. Ond mae yna ddiffyg rŵan o ran y gallu i fod yn rhan o’r ariannu. Ond dwi ddim yn meddwl ei fod o—. Dwi'n meddwl bod yna—ac efallai y bydd Ruth yn gallu siarad mwy ar hyn—o ran ochr Erasmus, gymhariaeth debyg yna ac efallai fod yna wersi lle mae Cymru wedi dysgu gan raglenni fel Taith hefyd, tra, yn y celfyddydau, dydyn ni ddim wedi cael, efallai, yr un math o raglen i helpu i bontio’r gap.

I just wanted to go back to the original question around the finance impact, because I don't think there is research that shows particularly one part of the sector or part of the stage of the career. We have anecdotal evidence that, potentially, obviously, smaller artists, individual artists, are more affected by the costs. However, the larger organisations with the big equipment—the circuses, the orchestras—are very much affected, and the music industry.

I think, in 2021, we commissioned a report with the Welsh Government, Creative Scotland, the British Film Institute and Arts Council England, and it was around the impact of the withdrawal of Creative Europe, and it said that, financially, people said that, of the participating firms in that, 63 per cent of them claimed to be more profitable, 76 per cent of them claimed to be more resilient financially, 86 per cent of them claimed to be more competitive in Europe, and 77 per cent claimed to have achieved a higher turnover when they were part of Creative Europe. So, we do have statistics like that specifically.

On the Erasmus/Taith question, I think it is right that the Welsh Government have made huge efforts to offer an alternative mobility programme where Erasmus was, and that hasn't happened necessarily in the arts. And there are benefits to Erasmus—a Welsh offer for Welsh people. There's a lot that's been done on access to those opportunities and bringing in a more inclusive beneficiary to those programmes. I think, if you're in Wales, you feel that you've got more of a chance of getting an opportunity through Taith, because, as I said, it's uniquely Welsh. However, I think, across the board, the sector are telling us in Wales that if that money could be put into Erasmus, there would still be a demand for that in terms of scale of networks, in terms of scale of funding, in terms of the size of the programme. But I think there are arguments on both sides, so it will be interesting to see where the Welsh Government land on that in the future.

Os caf fi jest droi’r sefyllfa ar ei phen, ydyn ni'n gwybod faint o artistiaid creadigol neu weithwyr creadigol o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd a oedd yn weithredol yng Nghymru cyn i’r newidiadau yma ddod i fodolaeth a pha effaith y mae hwnna wedi’i chael ar y lefelau yna o weithredu?

I do not have that data. I don't know whether Eluned does.

Na, dŷn ni ddim yn ymwybodol bod hwnna wedi cael ei fesur mewn unrhyw ffordd.

Na, dydy hwnna ddim yn rhywbeth sydd wedi cael ei gofnodi o gwbl. Mae yna drafodaeth yn mynd ymlaen ar hyn o bryd ynglŷn â'r ffordd y mae Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru yn gofyn am y data rhyngwladol a sut ydyn ni'n newid diffiniad gweithio’n rhyngwladol i gynnwys gwyliau a chanolfannau sy’n rhaglennu’r artistiaid sy'n perfformio. Yn y gorffennol, byddai gwaith rhyngwladol wastad wedi cael ei ystyried yn rhywbeth sydd yn digwydd y tu allan yn hytrach na beth sydd yn digwydd yma. Wrth gwrs, mae honna’n drafodaeth ehangach nag y byddem ni eisiau ei chael yma heddiw, achos mae'r holl ddiffiniad o beth ydy 'rhyngwladol' ac 'access', a beth ydy rôl cymunedau amrywiol yma yng Nghymru a ieithoedd gwahanol hefyd. Mae honna'n drafodaeth arall, dwi'n meddwl, ond mae'n un bwysig.

Ie, trafodaeth arall, ond un diddorol. Ocê. Gadewch i ni eto edrych ar hwn trwy lens ychydig yn wahanol. Oes yna unrhyw is-sectorau wedi elwa o ganlyniad i'r newid rŷn ni wedi gweld yn y rheolau? Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i'n gwybod yr ateb, ond dwi eisiau ei glywed e gennych chi.

Na.

I think there have been movements to compensate for the exit from the EU, and therefore there has been great movement in Wales with offers for Welsh artists—Sinema Cymru, for example. There are some good examples of where Creative Wales have pulled together 35 participants for tv and the creative industries. I don't think it compensates for the loss, and there isn't a study that I'm aware of on the comparative loss of funding and networks from the withdrawal from the EU, through Creative Europe and various other funds we mentioned earlier, versus the amount of money that then has subsequently been put into Wales through the prosperity fund, through various initiatives through the Welsh Government to compensate for that. I don't think we have the net balance of what that would look like. So, whereas there have been positive moves and you'll see things starting to flourish, I think it's compensating for a greater loss. So, I couldn't tell you whether there was a net benefit. I don't think so, from my understanding of our work, but Eluned—.

Tom, did you want to come in?

I wanted to come back to Creative Europe, if that's all right, but I don't know if you want to—.

The only thing I would say, to pick up on what Ruth was saying, is that we've had to rethink how we work with the world, and I think redefining what that international work is is important—thinking about how we work in other places that we've not been taking for granted, maybe, like we've taken the European Union for granted. But, the additional cost of working somewhere like India, for example, or Australia, the States, also brings considerable pressure on travel and resources—and Asia. So, I'd say that I think it has forced us to think more globally.

Ro'n i'n mynd i ofyn os oedd yna gynnydd wedi bod yn y cyfleoedd i weithio y tu hwnt i'r Undeb Ewropeaidd, felly—

Oes, mae yna.

Oes, ond eto dwi'n tybio dydy e ddim yn gwneud i fyny am yr hyn sydd wedi cael ei golli, nac ydy?

Na. Fyddwn i ddim yn dadlau ei fod o'n un neu'r llall neu ddylai fe ddim bod, ond dwi'n meddwl bod profiad Cymru yn un dilys iawn i edrych arno fo yn y cyd-destun Ewropeaidd o ran y newidiadau rydyn ni wedi bod trwyddyn nhw yma, yn enwedig o ran ehangu cyfranogiad a'r gwaith dilys yma sy'n mynd ymlaen mewn social justice yn y celfyddydau—efallai'n rhywbeth fuasem ni ddim wedi edrych arno fo gymaint pe na bai am yr holl brofiad mae'r celfyddydau wedi bod trwyddo fo yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf, sydd wedi bod yn brofiad aruthrol.

Tom.

What I wanted to say about Creative Europe, and this is probably looking at it primarily from the more commercial sector than other slightly more subsidised arts—Creative Europe was undoubtedly a good thing and something that should support the sector, and this is, obviously, a very music-specific example—I don't think we made enough of it whilst we were members of the European Union. We did hear of people having trouble accessing it, and that may be just because the way it was designed, in some ways trying to bring some of the other member states to make their music industries maybe more aligned, like the UK one. So, not so much, necessarily, that there's a defined benefit there, but in terms of seeing that it was working properly in the way it could potentially do for the music industry, I do know that there were definitely some frustrations around that area. So, I wouldn't want it to be seen, necessarily, as a kind of panacea, at least for our sector, notwithstanding other cultural and creative arts.

Just in terms of other Brexit potentials, if you don't mind me—. One area we do annual data on is around music tourism and people coming over to the UK for gigs and festivals. Wales had £218 million to the Welsh economy generated via music tourism, and 30,000 of that was from overseas people. And that has actually increased since the pandemic.

Thirty thousand—

Thirty thousand people coming over, primarily for gigs and—

Sorry, I thought that £30,000 out of £218 million isn't what I was hoping for.

No, £218 million was the economic benefit.

I see. Yes.

Wrth gwrs. Ocê. So, beth am y berthynas gydag Iwerddon, achos dyna, yn amlwg, ein cymydog agosaf yma yng Nghymru. Mae'n amlwg bod yna ychydig o nuances hefyd, efallai, o ran y berthynas yng nghyd-destun ehangach Brexit. Faint o wahaniaeth ŷn ni wedi gweld o safbwynt y berthynas yna i'r ddau gyfeiriad?

Fe allaf i ddim ond siarad drosom ni ein hunain yma. Mae'r berthynas, yn sicr, efo Cyngor Celfyddydau Iwerddon a Culture Ireland yn un sydd yn bwysicach nag y mae erioed wedi bod. Wrth gwrs, mae'r gwariant ar y celfyddydau yn Iwerddon wedi mynd i fyny'n aruthrol, fel cyllidebau eraill, mewn cyfnod lle mae ein cyllidebau ni'n mynd yn is. Mae lot o'n hartistiaid ni yn edrych i Iwerddon fel rhywle sydd yn haws i deithio iddo, yn sicr. Anecdotal ydy o gennym ni, a does gennym ni ddim y data i facio hyn i fyny, ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna fwy o gynnydd yn y diddordeb mewn rhai ceisiadau i mewn i ni. Rydyn ni'n rhedeg cronfa cyfleoedd rhyngwladol yng Nghelfyddydau Rhyngwladol Cymru ac mae yna'n bendant fwy o geisiadau wedi dod i mewn i hwnnw, yn ogystal â grantiau ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig y mae'r pedair gwlad yn eu rhedeg yn y celfyddydau. Felly, mae'n ddifyr gweld hynny.

Dwi'n meddwl bod yna gyfle penodol i fod, efallai, yn edrych ar gynaliadwyedd a sut ydyn ni'n teithio'n rhyngwladol efo Iwerddon, ac efallai i ystyried hefyd y gallai cyrff a rhai o'r rhwydweithiau dwi wedi sôn amdanyn nhw eisoes fod yn symud eu bases i Iwerddon yn hytrach nag yng Nghymru oherwydd ei fod o'n nes. Ond beth sydd yn amlwg ydy bod artistiaid o Iwerddon yn mynd i gael lot mwy o gyfleoedd na'n hartistiaid ni rŵan oherwydd mae'n haws eu bwcio nhw, mae yna lai o gost ac maen nhw'n barod i gymryd yr awenau yn hynny o beth.

Yn y gorffennol, y Deyrnas Unedig oedd y wlad oedd yn cael y fantais fwyaf o Creative Europe, a ni oedd efo, hefyd, y rhaglenni oedd yn—. Roedden ni'n arwain mwy o raglenni nag unrhyw wlad arall. Ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth sy'n cael ei golli, dwi'n meddwl. Mae'r negeseuon rydyn ni'n cael yn eithaf positif gan y gwledydd eraill, o ran pe byddai yna gyfle i ailymuno ar ryw bwynt y byddai yna ystyriaeth yn cael ei gwneud.

Diolch. Fe wnawn ni symud at Joel.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I know we've briefly touched upon it in other discussions that we've had here, but I wanted to talk about trading arrangements. But, if I may, Chair, I just want to ask a couple of questions, and I think the first one is probably best to Tom. I know, last year, UK Music did a survey of artists in terms of the impact—and it's purely just for my own information and curiosity, really—and I know that about 18 per cent came back and said, 'Well, actually, our income has increased since Brexit'. Why is that? Why have they benefited, then, and so many others haven't?

I think that's a very good question and I don't have a defined answer, unfortunately. I guess it's how people interpreted the question we asked. I guess, potentially, like, small—. There are people who are doing less touring. If people are instinctively not going there, then it reduces the pool, I guess, or the number of people who can actually go and perform, or work as well, because it may not necessarily be people performing; it could be crew as well. So, there will be an element of that. But, I mean, we were genuinely surprised by that outcome too, to be honest.

Yes, because, you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's probably not, but it is quite a high percentage, really—not in comparison to the 43, but—. Not the 43, the 82.

Yes.

The other one I wanted to ask, then—. I remember last year, I read an article online about the impact that artists, because of the European law about the—. It's estimated they lose up to about 40 per cent of their income from American radio, from American tours and that, because of EU laws. That sort of piqued my curiosity in terms of, like, when we talk about royalties and income from radio airplay and all that—. Has there been much impact there since leaving Brexit, then, on that sort of aspect?

I mean, they've largely been sort of unaffected because, I guess, they're kind of agreements that existed outside of—. They were negotiations done by the rights holders in the UK and, whether they're in the EU or not, they're not necessarily untangled by it. I guess there is a sort of slight complexity to it, but, in terms of that side of things, it's not changed significantly, no. One of the issues is around copyright, and there are private copying levies and the payment of that, and that's actually not something we've provided for here previously in the UK, whereas, in the EU, they did. So, I think there are some question marks around that, however.

Okay. Perfect. And then, obviously, just to go back to sort of like the trading arrangements, and on the—.

Sorry, it's a loop, so, when I speak, it's feeding back into my hearing aid and it's quite disorientating, actually, especially when I think, 'Oh, do I really sound like that?'

We all get that about our own voices—don't worry.

Okay, thanks. About the creative industries on the whole, then, have you seen much impact, then—? Were you able to quantify, prior to Brexit, the impact that it's had, I suppose, since Brexit, on the creative industries—the trading arrangements on the whole, then? It's not so much musicians, per se, but, you know, you mentioned it before, about the commercial services that weren't necessarily promoted as much as they could have been when we were in the EU.

I'll have to think about that, sorry. I mean, regulatory alignment—. There is an issue now with things like copyright and IP, particularly with the growth of things like artificial intelligence, which is a big concern to the sector. What we're seeing there is actually you're seeing laws getting into place in the EU, and there's a risk that if we don't put the same sort of protections in the UK there is a divergence, and, particularly on copyright, our existing framework is very much derived from EU law, so that is a significant challenge where that continues. So, I guess regulatory alignment with our biggest market is an issue, and, as the legislation changes, then that can only grow further apart.

Chair, I think most of the other questions were answered by the other answers.

Okay, diolch. Did either of you want to add anything to Joel's question?

Yes. I think the point around protectionism is one that is global, not just with the European Union. Visas for the States have become increasingly costly and difficult, and, of course, the cost for people to come into the UK as well, and how people come in. So, the issue of protectionism globally is one that we've got to keep our eyes open about. But I would add to that and say that the role of companies like Focus Wales, who provide platforms for emerging talent to be presenting their work internationally at places like South by Southwest and others, those are things that are becoming increasingly difficult because of visa costs and visa issues in the States. This is not just an European issue. But, yes, it's one to look at.

Okay, diolch. Are you happy? Lovely. Okay, diolch. Diolch, Joel. Looking at guidance and support, to what extent would artists and performers in the cultural sector need bespoke advice, or would you say that the needs of the guidance and advice would be different or distinct from other industries?

I think they're different and distinct even within the arts themselves, you know, because what a visual artist will need or what a gallery might need is going to be very different from what a musician needs, and whether they tour and go to multiple countries or whether they go to one venue with one piece of art. So, I think there's a need to be able to support artists but to also make it clear that that responsibility is something that we now have to take as companies, as individuals, as nations. The world is a complex place and, as you heard this morning, our artists are struggling to navigate 27 countries and the systems in 27 countries. But there is no simple way of addressing that. This is one thing that we're finding through the provision of Arts Infopoint UK. Arts Infopoint UK is set up to support international artists coming into the UK, and our companies in Wales and the UK, to support that to happen. We're very dependent on the other countries to tell us about what's going on in their own country, and, heaven forbid, when an election happens, rules change in every country. So, you know, I can understand why there is confusion, because it's complicated.

Also, we were talking to the UK Government in Westminster about trying to develop some kind of a hub, because it's really complicated, the actual information that they have on their website. It doesn't really signpost things properly, it's really confusing if you're a musician who just needs to know the basics, and it's not written in a user-friendly language. It got so far, but then they kind of lost interest after a while, which was a bit unfortunate. But, obviously, the work that you're doing is brilliant in that regard. But more bespoke data or more bespoke information being presented in a clear, accessible form, with videos, and talking to people in a language that they would understand, can only be a good thing.

I would just echo that. I think there's no one-stop shop for it all, and my experience from talking to our sector partners is that they'll go to various different sources to try and find the specific information that they need, and whether that be—. I think, in one case, they had to enlist the help of a local MP to try and understand the tax regulations in a very specific country, having gone to the various different sources. And like you said, it's complex—it's 27 countries. There's no provision for arts and culture under the agreement that the UK has with the EU, so then it's based on individual country agreements, and that's extremely complicated and very niche, like you say, depending on the type of artistry, depending on the type of equipment you're bringing.

I think less—. It's not less complicated in student mobility and youth exchange, there's still complications there, but the added complication, if you like, of instruments, of equipment and the things we've talked about—the tax levies, the carnets, the certification—that is really complex, and it will vary from sector to sector, within profession to profession within the arts sector, possibly in a more complex way than it would in other areas of the demographic that are just doing student/youth exchange or youth mobility.

But, yes, echoing that infopoint is doing a really good job, but I think it just can't cover everything.

Na, diolch; diolch am hwnna. Eluned, pan fydd pobl yn dod atoch chi i ofyn am gymorth, oes gyda chi'r adnoddau angenrheidiol, ydych chi'n teimlo, i roi'r wybodaeth sydd ei angen arnyn nhw, neu oes yna gaps lle mae yna lot o bethau sydd jest ddim yn glir i chi chwaith?

Wel, mewn ffordd, rydym ni'n dal i dreialu hyn, ac mae yna ddiffyg adnoddau yna, yn sicr. Mae'r wybodfan yn cael ei ariannu gan Lywodraeth Cymru, gan Gyngor Celfyddydau Lloegr, Cyngor Celfyddydau Cymru, Creative Scotland. So, mae gennym ni bartneriaid sydd yn awyddus i gydweithio. Mae yna staff rhan amser yn gweithio ar gontracts blynyddol. Does yna ddim cadernid na sicrwydd ariannu o gwbl i'r ffordd rydym ni'n ariannu'r gwaith yma. Mae o'n jig-so o dynnu ar adnoddau pawb, ond hefyd mae adnoddau staff y cynghorau i gyd yn mynd i mewn iddo fo. Mae'r rhwydwaith ehangach rhyngwladol roeddwn i'n sôn amdano fo yn gynharach yn hynod bwysig. A hefyd, dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddiddordeb mewn cael adnoddau, yn sicr, i fod yn gwella ar y data, achos mae'r data yn un anodd.

Dwi'n meddwl beth sydd yn gweithio'n dda, ar lefel personol, ydy, unwaith y mis, mae yna gyfle i bobl ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig ddod at ei gilydd i gael bore coffi a thrafod a rhannu rhai o'r problemau. Wedyn, mae yna gyd-fentora yn digwydd drwy'r wybodfan, ond mae yna hefyd gyrff fel ISM, UK Music, y British Council ac eraill, sydd yn gwneud cymaint o waith sydd yn helpu erbyn hyn i fod yn annog artistiaid i weithio'n rhyngwladol.

Un peth hoffwn i bigo i fyny arno fo hefyd ydy'r perceptions yn rhyngwladol, achos beth rydym ni'n ei wneud trwy'r wybodfan ydy rydym ni'n rhoi cyfle i wybodfannau, dywedwch, yr Almaen, ddod i fewn a chyflwyno sut y dylai artistiaid o Brydain fod yn gallu teithio i fewn i'r Almaen, ac felly yn rhoi spotlight ar rai o'r gwledydd eraill hefyd. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod yna issue o gwmpas fod pobl yn poeni am ddod fewn i'r Deyrnas Unedig, a pha mor gymhleth a chostus ydy o: ydyn nhw'n mynd i fedru teithio, ydyn nhw'n mynd i fedru gwneud y gwaith? Mae digwyddiad fel WOMEX yn dod i fyny eleni ym Manceinion, yn dilyn ein bod ni wedi'i gael o yma yng Nghaerdydd yn 2013, ac mae'r perceptions yn dra gwahanol 11 mlynedd yn ddiweddarach i beth oedden nhw yn ôl yn 2013. So, dwi'n meddwl bod yna angen ystyried hynny hefyd.

Diolch. Mae hwnna'n—nid ongl; beth ydy 'layer' yn Gymraeg?

Haen.

'Haen'. Diolch. Mae hwnna'n haen rili bwysig.

And in terms of how the Welsh and UK Governments gather information about the effect of all of these things that you're setting out, the effect that this is having on culture, what's your understanding of how they are doing that, and do you feed into that process of how they are gathering that information? And, if so, is your main point of contact the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism here, or the Minister for Economy, or would it tend to be that there would be some things that you'd go more to the UK Government for?

Lots of different haenau—layers—to that one question. Ruth.

I can speak from our perspective. We are a non-departmental public body, but our sponsoring department, therefore, is the Foreign Office. And so we will provide statistics and experience and insights, as and when asked by the Foreign Office, with direct relationship, and also with the Department for Education and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and also with the Cabinet Office and the Department for Business and Trade. So, largely with the UK Government. I don't feed in, we don't feed in, to the Welsh Government. We're happy to, but that would be our formal way, through our sponsoring body, and then as requested, as well as parliamentary inquiries like this that happen in Westminster that come up and that we submit evidence to. That's the way we would normally interact on those points.

Thank you. Tom.

Sure. From our perspective, similarly, our main dialogue is with DCMS and other Government departments in Westminster. There was a lot of activity after the trade and co-operation agreement came out, and a lot of meetings were set up, which did bring, I think, people from devolved administrations and Governments, and unfortunately that kind of fizzled out, I think, towards the end of that—2021, it would have been—kind of work. So, that was quite good at the time because it did sort of help co-ordination. So, I think, certainly, reintroducing something like that—.

I'd also add that we're part of something called the domestic advisory group, which I think—I know—came up in the earlier session. However, not only is Wales very under-represented on it, culture is generally too. UK Music and another organisation called Live, which represents the live sector, we're the only two cultural organisations on the domestic advisory group. So, to an extent, we can really—. It's not a Government thing, but Government administers it, it provides the secretariat, it enables the meetings to take place, and it's something that's part of the trade and co-operation agreement too, that the domestic advisory group exists. So, again, that is another channel that we have to discuss some of these issues with them.

Diolch. Diolch, Tom. I think Robin was going to ask me to ask something, but no—. Was there something we needed to check?

It would be interesting to see if they've had any contact with the FCDO.

Yes. Have you had any—? I don't know if you heard Robin there, if you've had any contact with the FCDO.

Sporadically. It's quite a hard department to really penetrate on these things. Quite often we've found that we make approaches to other departments and then all roads go back to DCMS or something like that, so it's kind of a bit—. The snakes and ladders of Whitehall.

Well, it's an extension of the metaphor that Baroness Bull used with us this morning: she was talking about a 'yellow brick road' approach to doing things sometimes.

Ac Eluned, beth amdanoch chi? A fyddech chi'n bwydo i mewn fwyaf i'r Dirprwy Weinidog neu i Weinidog yr Economi fan hyn neu—?

Mae hwn yn un difyr iawn inni oherwydd mae o'n gymhleth. Rydym ni'n cael ein hariannu drwy Gyngor Celfyddydau Cymru ond hefyd drwy adran y Prif Weinidog, Mark Drakeford, so adran yr international relations, ac maen nhw'n cyd-ariannu, er enghraifft, Arts Infopoint UK, ond rydym ni hefyd yn gweithio'n agos efo Creative Wales, ac wrth gwrs y Dirprwy Weinidog dros ddiwylliant hefyd, wrth gwrs. Felly, mae gennym ni nifer o—

Haenau eto.

—haenau eto, heb sôn am sut rydyn ni'n gweithio ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig.

Mi wnaethom ni setio i fyny yn y cyfnod cyn Brexit—wel, ar ôl y bleidlais—rhywbeth o'r enw'r Brexit task and finish group, wnaeth erioed orffen, ac mae o wedi troi i mewn i international liaison group. Rydym ni'n cydweithio efo cyngor y celfyddydau yn Lloegr a chyngor celfyddydau Gogledd Iwerddon a'r Alban, a'r Llywodraethau hefyd, wedyn mae'r Llywodraethau gwahanol yn gyrru'r person sydd yn bwysig iddyn nhw i'w gael yn y drafodaeth, ac rydym ni'n cwrdd yn chwarterol. Dydy o ddim yn ddigonol, ond beth sydd yn amlwg o hyn i gyd ydy cymaint o wybodaeth sydd yn mynd drwy rhai o'r pwyllgorau yn Llundain sydd ddim wedi'n cyrraedd ni, lle dydy'r ochr ddatganoledig o ddiwylliant ddim wedi cael ei gynrychioli. Felly, rydym ni'n clywed am bethau, er enghraifft cytundeb efo'r Almaen, lle nad oes yna neb wedi'n cynrychioli ni o Gymru'n rhan o'r trafodaethau hynny.

So, dwi'n meddwl bod yna waith i wneud ar edrych ar draws pwy sy'n ein cynrychioli ni ar y pwyllgorau yma, gan gynnwys y pwyllgor mae Tom arno fo hefyd, achos mae hwnnw'n un pwysig, a'r Wales Council for Voluntary Action ydy'r unig gorff o Gymru sydd ar hwnna, a Duw â'n helpo ni os ydyn nhw'n gorfod cynrychioli pob sector yng Nghymru yn rhan o'r trafodaethau ffurfiol. Does yna ddim tegwch yn hynny o gwbl.

Na. Dyw e ddim yn gynaliadwy chwaith.

Na.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am hwnna.

Sorry, Ruth, did you want to come back in again?

No.

No.

Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am hwnna. Fe wnawn ni symud at Carolyn eto.

Thank you. Previously, you've mentioned access to funding programmes and networks. Wales Arts International have called for the UK to rejoin Creative Europe, so would the other panellists support this view, and what benefits would there be from joining, if that was possible, besides the financial or access to funds through that body?

Tom.

Just to my earlier answer, I'd very much support it. The kind of thing I would develop in that is trying to maybe work more closely with the music sector in how it can really present a compelling case to those making those decisions as to how we can access those funds. But it certainly would be a good thing for cultural life generally and, obviously, music has an impact on other art forms as well, and we want to see that.

As an NDPB it's not our role to advise UK Government on what to do. However, our sector partners would very much welcome that—that's been made clear across the board in Wales, but also across our networks in the EU nations. We still have a really strong network of our offices in 27 countries, and our partners are telling us that they very much miss the UK presence and the expertise that the UK brought to programmes like Creative Europe, and we've got some examples of where we're still—. We're now co-funding projects to make sure that the UK remains in some of the projects that we previously ran, and there are ways that we do that. But the loss of Creative Europe has been felt by everybody, I think, and particularly the areas of expertise, like arts and disability, that the UK brought to the table.

In terms of the benefits, we've talked about it: formal networks, informal networks, the funding loss—again, I can submit the statistics on what Wales did receive under Creative Europe—and how that relates to the rest of the UK. But, yes, the intangible elements that we talked about—. There's the bread and butter of what the British Council do, which is around connections and understanding and trust between countries and people overseas and the UK and Wales, everything from travel and insight and language and creation and innovation that comes from that, being part of those peer work networks that Wales no longer is part of. And Eluned mentioned earlier some of the networks we used to lead from Wales, and just not having those connections and how isolating that can be, as well as, obviously, the obvious funding benefits that we had through programmes like Creative Europe, but other other fundings as well, can't be underestimated from our partners. But, like I say, it's felt from both sides, both from the UK, Wales included, obviously, and then from the rest of Europe in terms of what we brought to the table.

If I may just add to that—

It must be frustrating, because you've got relations and expertise over the years, when we were a big part of Europe, and then losing that. Are there any other programmes or networks it would be a priority to join, if possible, for Wales or the UK?

Eluned.

Yes. If I can just pick up on the Creative Europe point a little bit more, it's worth noting that the budget for Creative Europe has gone up substantially in this budget round and so what we're missing out on is even greater. The other thing is that Arts Infopoint UK comes a little bit to address it, but it doesn't do any justice, really, to the network that we've lost in the form of what the Creative Europe desk was, which was based here in Wales. We seconded a member of staff from the arts council to be based at Creative Wales, and that worked alongside the media programme as well as the culture programme. Katie was invited to attend all the Creative Europe desk gatherings. When they would go to different things, we would have somebody from Wales who would feed that back to the sector applying and make the connections. When you haven't got that any more, it does reduce your ability to open those doors. So, I think that important role of having the advice on the ground here, connected to international networks—.

In terms of other networks, we are still very much active, and more active in many ways, in On the Move. We were the only members from the UK back in 2011, but by now Arts Council England have joined and the network has grown considerably, and that is a network of networks, if you like. So, there are networks like Artists at Risk Connection, who are really important with situations of war in Ukraine and so on and so forth, that we are now able to engage in conversations in a way, maybe, that we wouldn't have done before. But I would say also that every art form has its network, and more importantly, maybe, for us here in Wales as well, are networks like arts and health networks, creative learning networks, where we have a particular agenda or a focus on sustainability and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and those things. We are finding that those are actually determining new networks for us.

That's interesting. You've said that extra funding has gone in to Creative Europe this year. Is it because the EU believe that the creative arts are a bigger priority than what the UK may be thinking? Are you finding that?

It was an agreement across all of the 27 member states and it's for a period of seven years, so it's not just this year, it's for the budgeting period.

I found that with European funding when it's come through over the years—the importance of the creative industries and sense of place and communities. It really covered that side of things, and the arts.

Ruth wanted to come in.

It was just the stat on that. It's my understanding it's increased by 66 per cent to €2.44 billion.

Wow. That's worth noting.

I've got an additional statistic from a report that states that, had we not exited the EU, the UK's creative industries may have received—it says 'may have received', but it is a report of evidence—an additional €184 million. That's a British Film Institute report.

Thank you for all the data. It's really useful for us. I think that's it for my questions, Chair.

Diolch, Carolyn. I think that Eluned might want to add something as well.

I wanted to pay tribute to companies in the sector who are really taking memberships of networks seriously, such as Disability Arts Cymru, who have created a European network of their own for disability arts, and who've been really trailblazing some amazing work against the odds, funded through different—. It's by hook or by crook that people are doing it, and that is not sustainable in the long term with the bigger picture of cuts that we've got going on in Wales.

I think Tom and Ruth wanted to add final points.

My point is really about how important it is to sustain these networks. Because ultimately, the visa waiver agreements we get and other things around cultural touring agreements—these sorts of things we're calling for—will only work if people from the other side in Europe are actually calling for that as well. Given we've exited and had that settlement, you need to get people back. So, establishing new networks, I think, is incredibly key in this, too.

It was just to pick up on Eluned's point that when we were part of Creative Europe, we ran a programme called Europe Beyond Access from 2018 to 2023. It was a €2 million programme across seven countries, and it worked with the likes of Hijinx in Wales and Disability Arts Cymru. We are now not able to be a main part of that—we led the consortium—but we have chosen to be an associate partner. That means putting in money of our own to just retain that position in the programme, and try to enable that door for the UK, in an area where we're considered specialist, to be part of that programme. But it was considered groundbreaking. The evidence shows it reached 3.8 million people, and it was considered a huge success. So, to have to step back from that and not be in a lead position anymore, and actually pay to be part of the programme, is one of the case studies we've got on the impact.

Diolch. Thank you for that. We have just over a minute left and there's only a small question from Llyr at the end.

Yes, a small question, but there might be long answers. [Laughter.]

Jest i gloi, efallai brawddeg yr un ynglŷn â'r prif newid fyddech chi'n hoffi ei weld yn y berthynas rhwng y Deyrnas Unedig a'r Undeb Ewropeaidd. [Chwerthin.] Dywedes i y byddai'r atebion yn hirach na'r cwestiwn.

Because of our position with Government, it's a difficult one to answer. I would say what we hear about re-entry into different programmes—Creative Europe has been one, there's talk of Erasmus. I know from the sector they've talked about visa waivers, for example, to try and eliminate some of those costs. From our perspective, we have offices in all 27. We work with all 27 EU countries still, and there's a huge demand for creative education, for education for arts and culture still, and we don't have a lot of money to be able to fulfil that demand because it's classed as non-official development assistance work. So, more funding in those areas. The demand is there; it's just the way our funding works that we can't do it. And the loss of EU funds and the way we would be able to run programmes like Erasmus before has been huge. So, I think those would be my three key points.

From my perspective, on what we call a cultural touring agreement, there is an absence of agreement over the existing arrangement. It covers work permits, visas, things like cabotage, carnets, CITES, merchandise, all these kinds of issues. Having some concerted effort to actually get something achieved on those in that regard is what we're after.

Dwi'n cytuno yn llwyr efo hynna i gyd. Efallai, i beidio ag ailadrodd y pwyntiau hynny, byddwn i'n adio hefyd bod yna rôl i Gymru, ac i'r pwyllgor yma yn benodol, i fod yn edrych ar sut mae Cymru yn cymryd hyn ymlaen, beth ydy ein perthynas ni efo rhaglen Ewrop Greadigol mewn cyd-destun Prydeinig, ond hefyd yn ein hawl ein hunain. A hefyd, byddwn i'n dweud edrych ar artistiaid ac emerging artists yn arbennig, edrych ar gynaliadwyedd a'r agenda llesiant hwnnw, a'i weld e fel cyfle i ni allu rhoi llais i'r byd am beth sy'n mynd ymlaen yma, mewn ffordd sydd wedi newid yn y pum mlynedd diwethaf. Ond ein bod ni'n dod i mewn i berthynas mewn ffordd, efallai, fwy creadigol. Ond mae'n rhaid cael yr arian a'r buddsoddiad i ganiatáu i hyn ddigwydd. Does yna ddim buddsoddiad i gynnal hyn ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae'n rhaid edrych ar hynny.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch i'r tri ohonoch chi am eich tystiolaeth. Bydd transgript o'r hyn sy'n cael ei ddweud yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi i chi wirio ei fod e'n gofnod teg. Ond rydyn ni'n rili ddiolchgar am y sesiwn yna. Mae wedi bod yn rili werthfawr inni gael deall lot fwy o'r manylion. Felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i'r tri ohonoch chi.

Gwnawn ni aros i glywed ein bod ni yn breifat cyn i ni symud ymlaen.